BH Balanced Hackmons

[XxLazzerpenguinxX]

(thanks Varrio for the banner)​

What is Balanced Hackmons?
From a technical standpoint, Balanced Hackmons (BH) is an Other Meta that allows you to use nearly anything possible that you can battle with in a local battle between players, in the most current cartridge.
Conceptually, BH is defined as a sandbox tier where one can use Pokemon to their fullest potential with normal restrictions being removed.

What makes it Balanced?
The removal of abilities, moves or Pokemon that focus the meta only around their use.

Highlights of BH Mechanics:
Here is but a sample of the cool things you can do in BH and nowhere else!
Note: The following is subject to the current banlist. Some mechanics may not be finalized on PS

• Mix and match mons in any of their usable forms in the game directly!
• Use (nearly) any Pokemon, Ability, move or item of your choice! If it's coded in the game, you can use it!
• Make use of Pokemon with maxed out EV's!

Clause and Ban List:
The banlist keeps the"Balanced" in Balanced Hackmons. Here's our banlist for the BH8 Ladder:

Pokemon

• Calyrex-Shadow
• Cramorant-Gorging
• Darmanitan-Galar-Zen
• Eternatus-Eternamax
• Shedinja
• Zacian-Crowned

Moves

• OHKO Moves
• Double Iron Bash
• Octolock
• Shell Smash
• Bolt Beak
• Court Change
• Belly Drum
• Transform

Abilities

• Wonder Guard
• Pure / Huge Power
• Parental Bond
• Protean / Libero
• Shadow Tag / Arena Trap
• Moody
• Water Bubble
• Innards Out
• Magnet Pull
• Stakeout
• Illusion
• Contrary
• Neutralizing Gas
• Gorilla Tactics
• Intrepid Sword

History:

Click to see dates and links for each action

Date	Action
Nov 18, 2019	[Gen 8] Balanced Hackmons goes live on PokemonShowdown! Initial Banlist Decision Breakdown here
Nov 24, 2019	Creation of the Balanced Hackmons Council here
Nov 30, 2019	Gorilla Tactics QuickBanned here
Jan 27, 2020	Shedinja Banned via Suspect here
Jan 31, 2020	Double Quickban by BHC for Double Iron Bash and Zacian-Crowned here
Feb 28, 2020	Octolock Quickbanned by BHC here
Mar 13, 2020	Forme Clause implemented by BHC here. Further clarification of clause here
Mar 30, 2020	Dynamax Suspect results in DNB here
May 12, 2020	Shell Smash banned via suspect here
May 13, 2020	Psychic Surge has been unbanned by BHC here
Oct 29, 2020	Dynamax Clause implemented via Quickban by BHC here
Nov 8, 2020	Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Quickbanned by BHC here
Nov 28, 2020	Intrepid Sword Banned via Suspect here
Jan 11, 2021	Calyrex-Shadow Quickbanned by BHC here
Feb 28, 2021	Bolt Beak Banned and Glacial Lance remains via Suspect here
May 4, 2021	Cramorant-Gorging Quickbanned by BHC here
June 28, 2021	Rusted Sword Quickbanned by BHC here
Sept 13, 2021	Court Change Quickbanned by BHC here
Oct 14, 2021	Sleep Moves Clause Implemented via suspect test with votes here

Clauses

• ComaTalk Clause: Sleep Talk can't be run on a Pokemon with the Comatose ability
• Dynamax Clause: Dynamaxing is not allowed
• Endless Battle Clause: Forcing an endless battle is banned, similar to the rest of PS
• Evasion Moves Clause: No moves that can increase Evasion are allowed. This does not include abilities or items that may modify Evasion passively such as Sand Veil or Brightpowder
• Sleep Moves Clause: Moves that cause opposing Pokemon to fall asleep are not allowed. This excludes self-inflicted sleep or Comatose
• Forme Clause: You may only use one of each forme of a Pokemon on your team. (Example: you can use both Zamazenta and Zamazenta-Crowned on the same team)

Items

• Rusted Sword

Note: Anything that is included in Gen 7's banlist that wasn't carried over into Gen 8 will be treated as "dormant banned" unless otherwise stated i.e. if these are to return, they will be automatically banned before going forward with new discussion.

Important Links:

• [Gen 8] Balanced Hackmons Central Resources Thread
• Sample Teams (in this thread)

Previous Gen(s):

Hide

• [Gen 7] Balanced Hackmons Ladder Thread
• [Gen 7] Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread
• [Gen 7] Balanced Hackmons Central Resources Thread
• [Gen 6] Balanced Hackmons Ladder Thread
• [Gen 6] Balanced Hackmons Central
• [Gen 6] Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread
• [Gen 5] Comprehensive Guide to Balanced Hackmons
• Balanced Hackmons: History (by verbatim)

Council:

cityscapes

quojova

XxLazzerpenguinxX">XxLazzerpenguinxX
Tea Guzzler
MAMP

 

[XxLazzerpenguinxX]

Balanced "FAQ"mons
​

Why isn’t Normalize banned?
Entrainment Normalize, coming from Ghost-types like Dragapult and Marshadow can be annoying to deal with at times but there are multiple options to counter this strategy which include but aren’t limited to: all status moves except Thunder Wave, Magic Bounce, and Multi-Attack and Techno Blast with an appropriate held item.

Why isn’t Imposter banned?
Imposter is one of the few things in BH that you have a near 100% expectation of what you'll be facing because you design the set. The only variation is the amount of HP and the item. Imposter-proofing ("Improofing") means building your team to handle the Imposter of each team member, and the power of Imposter is entirely dependent on your own teambuilding. Taking advantage of Multi-Attack and Techno Blast, item removal, status moves, uncommon hard-counters to sweepers, trapping via Anchor Shot / Thousand Waves and even its limited 20 pp movepool are all common and valid strategies.

Balanced Hackmons: a Primer
Overview on popular mechanics in the Balanced Hackmons scene!​

• BH allows the use of anything that is coded in the game. This allows players to use unreleased mons, moves, abilities and items
  • This does not allow the player to use mechanics that were available only in previous gen games
• The above also means the player can only use 4 moves per Pokermon
• Pokemon are able to have maxed out EV's
• Pokemon may begin in any form they have in game without restrictions (subject to the banlist). This includes different forms without necessary moves and/or items (such as Aegislash-Blade, Rotom forms, Meloetta-P, Darmanitan-Zen and so forth)
• Hard-coded abilities designated for specific Pokemon can be used on other mons but will not have any effect on them. This includes RKS System, Stance Change, Zen Mode, Disguise, Gulp Missile, Flower Gift and so forth
• Some moves are hard-coded for a specific Pokemon (or their Imposters), such as Dark Void, Aura Wheel, and Hyperspace Fury
• Pokemon that change their forme during battle due to their item can utilize any ability in their base form, but this will be overriden with their new forme's ability
• Silvally Mechanics: Silvally can be used in any of its forms. Without RKS system it will take on that form's typing, otherwise it will be normal type. See the following:
  • Silvally-Grass with RKS System without Grass Memory -> Normal Type
  • Silvally-Grass with RKS System with Grass Memory -> Grass Type
  • Silvally-Grass with any other ability with any item -> Grass Type
• Pokemon with Imposter while holding special items retain their item's properties. This includes
  • Stat buffs from items such as Eviolite, Soul Dew, Light Ball, Thick Club, DeepSea items and more
  • Special effects from items such Lucky Punch or Stick
  • Note that this excludes Ditto's special items which are specifically coded to not work when Ditto is in a transformed state.

 

[XxLazzerpenguinxX]

Sample Teams

Searing Assault by Tea Guzzler
[Offense - Shift Gear Ho-Oh + Psycho Shift Regigigas]

Team Notes

How to use: Most games you're going for the Ho-Oh sweep, making use of V-create's absurd damage output. Games where there's no wall you can usually just sweep through, otherwise you're using Regigigas' Blades and Psycho Shift to help get Ho-Oh through. Zama, Melm and Zyg are fatmons you're mostly using for momentum, Xern keeps hazards off whilst binning opposing Ho-Oh and spamming Plate Boomburst. Paralyze FC Lunala and Toxic FC Fires/Waters, use Zygarde as the knock sponge in matchups where you need to Psycho for Ho-Oh to not be walled.

Other options:

• Because it's so fat, you can opt to run Entrainment so you can trap and eliminate PHealers, including Blades Gigas.
• Diamond Storm hits Desolate Land Ho-Oh, however misses out on misc targets + your own Ho-Oh can't emergency Improof anymore.
• No Ghost-type on the team, so you can swap this with Giratina if you're overly concerned about trapping.

Weaknesses:

• Imp can use the 2 Sap mons as relatively safe recovery (more Ho-Oh than Xern), so counterplay mostly comes down to creating a situation where it is forced to lose it's Eviolite in order to sap Zama-C.
• See the above trapping issue
• Prank Giratina can starve Glance of PP, so will usually require poisoning before attempting to force Ho-Oh through.

I also made a rate-my-team on this so you can look there for more detail.

Nuclear Fusion (Hard Mode) by cityscapes
[Bulky Offense - Dual Screens + Flare Boost Eternatus]

Team Notes

• How to use: Trick Celesteela's scarf as early as you can, especially against very offensive teams. Identify if Xerneas and/or Entei can keep hazards up on the opposing side, and use a mixture of Imposter, double switches, and pivoting with Celesteela to keep pressure. Eternatus will almost never have counters. Set it up against anything that can't pivot out. Opposing Imposter on Eternatus is a pain but Celesteela, Chansey, and Regigigas can keep it in check depending on the situation.
• Weaknesses: Very offensive teams can be tricky to play against; you have good measures in Extreme Speed Xerneas + Regigigas + Imposter but these are purely passive and you still need to find openings in order to actually win. Xerneas Extreme Speed is a 68.8% roll to OHKO Dragapult so you can run into some trouble there. If Celesteela gets Assault Vest you can't remove hazards, so you need to speed up your gameplan.

Dual Screens BO by XxLazzerpenguinxX
[Bulky Offense - Swords Dance Groudon + Tough Claws Zaamzenta-C]

Team Notes

The team revolves around spreading paralyses with SD Groudon, and breaking through things it might normally have trouble with, such as fc lunala with Tough Claws Zama-C. Groudon's bulk is quite mediocre so it has trouble setting up at times. Behind screens however, it becomes very difficult to deter. Yveltal is necessary here, because the team can struggle on the physical side vs. desolate land ho-oh, so it is able to be a complimentary offensive pokemon here.

weakness: Simple plot eternatus can really run through this team since Kyogre can't do much back, and heatran gets blown away by +2/+4 earth power. Also, last mon pheal xerneas can be a real pain, especially if it has strength sap, since the only way to beat it is via sunsteel strike from Zamazenta-C. Groudon might be able to deal with it, by clicking SD behind screens though.

Criminal Enterprises by Tea Guzzler
[Balance - Aerilate Yveltal + Pixilate Xerneas + Utility Regigigas]

Team Notes

How to use: Regigigas is your main progress maker - it either threatens raw damage or to cripple the target with Knock / Spikes. Pivot spam across the team gives you ample chances to crack the Toxic Orb or get Xerneas/Yveltal in safely to cause havoc, as well as limiting how often you're on the back foot. Zygarde-C sponges most physical threats and provides valuable Bounce support, and when combined with Melmetal can help limit the majority of the physical tier. Your main goal is to get Spikes up and then start slamming Xerneas as much as possible, playing the long game to force enough chip if necessary. Chansey improofs Yveltal and Xerneas (preferably use Melmetal for Xern, but Chansey does work), Zygarde improofs Regigigas and itself, Melmetal improofs Itself.

Other options:

• Nuzzle is still fully improofed, so if you want you can swap it for Knock. Neither's significantly better than the other.
• Opposing Yveltal aren't usually a massive issue, but if you're still paranoid, go Haze. You can also run Glare over Entrain since you're already fine against Normpult.
• Knock over Volt Switch is an option to cut off items, however I personally prefer Volt Switch's momentum.

Weaknesses:

• Doesn't come in easily, however you need to play really careful with Melmetal against it as this is your only real switch-in.
• Relying on Melmetal as a Steel-type means Blue Flare users are problematic. Reshiram and Adapt Eternatus are particular problems.
• Glacial Lance users with Fire-type coverage are real rough, so you need to limit the chances these get as much as possible.

Typical of Me by XxLazzerpenguinxX
[Balance - Double Poison Heal + RegenVest Zygarde-C]

Team Notes

Balance team, revolving on eventually breaking with Regigigas. Xerneas is able to pivot around most teams, and burn anchor shot trapping users. Zamazenta-C and Zygarde-C form a nice hazard controlling core. Dusclops covers for both of Zama-C's and Zygarde-C's weakness and is able to knock off valuable items at the start of a game.

weakness: The team isn't weak to a lot. It mainly struggles vs. toxic orb imposter.

Telemarket Scammers by Career Ended
[Semi-Stall - Regenerator Eternatus + Poison Heal Xerneas]

Team Notes

How to use: This team revolves around scouting and gathering information early on using strong tools like Imposter and the Regen Volt-Turn Core of Melmetal and Eternatus to determine your opponents win paths early and prevent them, while supporting setup Poison Heal Xerneas as a dangerous Mid-Late game threat. Prankster Copycat Ho-oh and Trick Black Sludge provide incredible Utility to take on opposing Threats as Trick Black sludge can be used to basically nullify Poison Heal Pokemon's biggest asset and put them on a timer so they can be dealt with easier and Prankster Ho-oh has the great volt turn capabilities paired with the Slow U-turns and Volt switches provided by the Regen pokemon. Prankster Ho-oh also offering prankster haze is very strong setup counterplay, especially when paired with Nuzzle / Glare Lunala and Imposter. Brave Prankster V-Create also has the great benefit of always 2HKOing both Regigigas and Xerneas after Poison Heal Recovery. Lunala acts as a final glue as the dedicated Regigigas Check (Watch out for Wicked Blow) and providing the team with a Fur Coat blanket check for physical attackers and it clicks the para button. Good Luck Scamming the opps!

Other options:

• Different moves work on PH Xerneas. I think MB, QD, Rapid spin and Tcage is the most effective variant, since it takes some pressure off of melmetal in hazard stack matchups, being able to spin on most lunala and giratinas. Zap Cannon + Magma Storm is a much more aggressive win condition with caveat of having to hit your inaccurate moves. Finally lava plume also works in lieu of rapid spin if you're not frightened of facing spin blocking hazard stack teams
• the item is mostly up to preference, helmet is nice to punish uturn, boots is good if you're running a xern set lacking spin and wanna take on spikes regis better, leftovers is always good. I prefer glare on this team usually, since para'ing the bulky ground types like groudon and zygc helps literally everything else on the team muscle through them, but nuzzle is also fine. Just be careful of Magic Bounce grounds
• The imposter set should be run to improof the xern in case of toxic orb imposter. so for example if you're running the zap cannon set you should run jungle healing on chansey. otherwise topsy teleport healing + utility so either trapping / nuzzle / knock / aroma.
• can be made +spdef to help with the triage matchup, running leftovers over boots also works (provided your double spin to not get completely bricked by hazard stack)
• I've run Core enforcer over spin or spectral to help vs regigigas, but i heavily prefer the 4 moves in the paste.

Weaknesses:

• the right Regigigas set will walk over any team in BH and this team's particular weakness is Nuzzle + SD + Wicked Blow, as it can nuzzle Imposter and Etern and Simply OHKO Lunala after some Chip and an SD. Another Dangerous set is DD + Wicked Blow + Precipice Blades. Typically opponents will bring in Regi on Ho-oh and you can trade 60% for the first V-create and if they're unaware of the set maybe you can 2HKO them. Definitely scouting the Regigigas early is beneficial and you can decide the best course of action. Another good way to deal with them is to Trick your Black Sludge onto the Regi hopefully while not taking a nuzzle or a boosted glance / pblades.
• Triage can be problematic. Typically Imposter Is very strong vs it, harding to melm on suspected triage is and paralyzing it will usually mean imposter can beat it. Ho-oh can also stall Owings from Yveltal specifically (not rayquaza) but Tcage will destroy it. Fire +Elec + Owing coverage is hard to play around so just be aware.
• Hazard spam teams can be problematic depending on the team makeup, but certain builds with Entrainment Regen Lunala can really be a difficult match. The team doesn't have a knock user so teams that stack HDB can endure long games but mostly once you've revealed trick with etern you can spam trick to hopefully take away their boots and give it to something like their life orb magic guard or their imp.
• The Fish can be difficult if they have something to bring it in on xern, but everything else can do something to do it if the fish gets in on them. Imp is fat, Ho-oh can prankster copycat (hopefully a volt switch 252 SpA Ho-Oh Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Barraskewda: 162-192 (49.6 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO) melm can nuzzle then you can go hard etern. Etern will be 2hkod if the fish is faster however.
• can be difficult to play around, Trick from etern is really good way to deal with it, but if u can also hope to glare it with lunala. Sometimes though the pult will get in on imp or xern or melm and you might need to sack a pokemon.

End of The World 2.0 by TTTech
[Stall - Double Poison Heal + Toxic Orb Imposter]

Team Notes

Team Description:

Similar gameplan to the original EoTW, it's stall designed to beat other stall and common cores but to a more advanced degree. Tina and Fini are the hazard setters and status mons. Ho oh is the Tina and Fini improof while handling most xern sets unless it has coverage. Null is just a really good all rounder for the team by getting off items and keeping physical walls in check. Imposter does imposter things, but beats/takes advantage of ph mons like regi, xern, and others. Registeel is the prank mon of the team keeping etern, xern, and set up sweepers in check with haze and topsy for both scenarios where either or would work or be better.


Weakness:

Same weaknesses as the original being blac, etern, coverage gigas (if both registeel and tina are low), bounce ho oh (or offensive shift gear with lance), triage yvel, taunt (sometimes, not a big deal though tbh), tends to lose to parahax if you get really unlucky on ho oh or null, and losing to timer because you're doing other things.

Old but still viable sample teams

End of Another World by Nihilslave
[Hyper Offense - Simple Spectrier + Tough Claws Yveltal + Swords Dance Regigigas]

Team Notes

Synopsis: TBA
Specifics: TBA
Weaknesses: TBA

Path of Peril and Pain by astralydia
[Offense - Pixilate Zacian + Magic Guard Ho-oh + Poison Heal Xerneas]

Team Notes

Description: pixi facade zacian
How to use: TBA
Weaknesses: TBA
Effectiveness: TBA

The French Dispatch by XxSevagxX
[Offense - Regenerator Calyrex-Ice + Dragon's Maw Eternats + Poison Heal Regigigas]

Team Notes

Description: Double Swords Dance offense.
How to use: TBA
Weaknesses: TBA
Effectiveness: TBA

Empty Shells by cityscapes
[Balance - Aerilate Celesteela + Pixilate Xerneas + Eviolite Imposter]

Team Notes

description: Slow balance that uses several hazards
how to use: TBA
effectiveness: TBA

Foraging for Truffles by Lunatic Hai
[Balance - Adapt Eternatus + Poison Heal Regigigas]

Team Notes

description: Balance: SBEVE + Blades/Spikes Gigas
how to use: TBA
effectiveness: TBA
weaknesses: TBA

Critical Wounds by Tea Guzzler
[Balance - Aerilate Rayquaza + Adaptability Palkia + Ice Scales Groudon]

Team Notes

Description: Double Aerilate offence ft. setup Palkia
How to use: TBA
Weaknesses: TBA
Effectiveness: TBA

Shock Driving by quojova
[Balance - Triage Celesteela + Pixilate Xerneas + Poison Heal Regigigas]

Team Notes

description: TBA
threats: TBA
effectiveness: TBA

Umb Stall by SlightlyAngryKevin
[Stall - Poison Heal Umbreon + Poison Heal Tapu Fini + Regenerator Eternatus]

Team Notes

Synopsis: TBA
Specifics: TBA
Weaknesses: TBA

End of the World by TTTech
[Stall - Imposter Chansey + Imposter Blissey + Magic Bounce Giratina]

Team Notes

Description: TBA
How to use: TBA
TL; DR: TBA
Weaknesses: TBA
Effectiveness: TBA

 

[E4 Flint]

Hello everyone. As BH8 is still very much in the beta phase in ironing out final mechanics, we shall be using this thread primarily for all of our discussions until I will create corresponding Gen 8 versions of the Suspects and Bans thread, and the Central Resources thread.

 

[Ren]

First thoughts on the generation:

Zacian-Crowned in SWSH BH is far more insane than Primal Groudon in SM BH. Considering that Steel types aren't that amazing (Melmetal and Zamazenta being the main ones since the Aegi nerf) it isn't really that difficult to just straight up win games with this mon, and it doesn't really help that not only is it also able to stay in on Imposter with some sets, but also Imposter in general is a lot less bulky this gen so it can't always switch in. If I'm being honest I'd have my doubts about this mon being legal even in unlimited dex BH. Fuck Zacian.

Dragapult is the new Gengar, yes - But the issue with it is that it's not Zacian lol. Let's be honest, Zacian can run p much whatever the hell it wants, and it has bulk to boot. With Trick or even just "unsets" (as if those exist) like Pixilate or Intreprid Sword w Bullet Punch, Dragapult will have a lot to worry about.

People need to use Zekrom more - but again, it's not Zacian. It needs Terrain support, and takes full damage from Stealth Rock and has to take Toxic Spikes. Even so, the mon w Bolt Beak and Surge Surfer is fucking nuts. There aren't that many good grounds and dragons can't really answer Zekrom that well.

Gyarados isn't awful in rain. The main problem is that with stuff like Zekrom and Eternatus in the meta it has a really hard time getting the OHKOs it wants with Fishious Rend, but neither of these things can switch in unless Prankster.

Court Change is overrated, here's why. Suppose rocks are up on your side. You Court Change. You've only just put rocks up on the opp's side, and you'll just have to deal with them again later. You may not be able to remove them. Court Change is best ran with Defog, but at that point why do you have it?

Eternatus is solid. Or it would be if Zacian wasn't here LOL but Tinted Specs has shown to be good and it removes TSpikes. Defensive sets are fine too.

One last thing before I close out this post - Ability clause just got deleted. Personally I don't think this means much for the meta, but I've been trying to create a multi-Imposter team for shits and giggles so once that's done I'll probably post saying how it went.

That's me byebye

e: ban dynamax

 

[Lectrys]

Meet our new Normalize Ghost GL Volkner alluded to, Dragapult:

Dragapult @ Ghost Memory
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Entrainment
- Multi-Attack
- Shift Gear
- Fishious Rend

Man, does Mega Gengar wish it had this guy's speed tier.

Ideally, this guy Entrainments the ability off the opponent fast enough, so I figured I'd go with Fishious Rend instead of a Moldy move. If they've got Magic Bounce, at least Water has no type immunities, unlike Bolt Beak's Electric.

Watch this guy eat Magic Bounce Knock Off, among other things.

On another note, I got to watch some lower-ladder BH games, and even there, No Retreat needs to be paired with a switch-out move, or you're going to eat a Spectral Thief/Topsy-Turvy and screw yourself over. Clangorous Soul looks great with Poison Heal or maybe recovery, though.

 

[かたわれ時]

I’m rather sad: all the nicest pokes were removed. Especially my favourite PixilateESpeed MDiancie.
Speaking of which Mega Evolutions and Z-moves are not allowed here as well, right?

 

[Funbot28]

I’m rather sad: all the nicest pokes were removed. Especially my favourite PixilateESpeed MDiancie.
Speaking of which Mega Evolutions and Z-moves are not allowed here as well, right?

That is correct, we will be sticking to what is coded in the game.

 

[hosemisnuba]

That is correct, we will be sticking to what is coded in the game.

Lame. Sticking with whats in the game in a meta that isn't even playable in game. Why reduce potential metagame variety just because GameFreak decided to limit the dex? Its one thing if this was a real meta, that is based directly on coded information, like OU, but it isn't, so why should this meta retain those limitations?

 

[The Immortal]

Lame. Sticking with whats in the game in a meta that isn't even playable in game. Why reduce potential metagame variety just because GameFreak decided to limit the dex?

The irony is that Hackmons is based on what is playable in game.

Kindly use the Index thread that is at the top of the forum to ask questions and use this thread to discuss the BH metagame.

 

[a loser]

This doggo might be the first dog that needs to go.

Zacian-Crowned @ Choice Band
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Sunsteel Strike / Double Iron Bash
- V-create / Play Rough
- Bolt Beak / Precipice Blades / Photon Geyser / Close Combat
- Trick / Stealth Rock / What else does this even need?

Well, the dog doesn't really need to go but I couldn't resist the pun. But Gorilla Tactics, as fun as it is to use, is incredibly restricting on this brand new meta that lacks the choice of walls the previous generation had.

The premier choice of walls for this set include but aren't limited to Zamazenta, Melmetal, and Toxapex. The first two prefer to run Fur Coat to have a shot at walling sets that don't use V-create as coverage while Toxapex prefers to run Prankster.

Calcs against Fur Coat

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian-Crowned V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 328-386 (84.5 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian-Crowned V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Melmetal: 330-390 (69.6 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Calcs against other abilities

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 223-264 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Zacian-Crowned Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 402-474 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Zacian-Crowned Bolt Beak (85 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 182-216 (59.8 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Assuming Pex moved first with Prankster Strength Sap)

If you want other ways to wall this mon, you can opt for things like Volt Absorb/Levitate Toxapex, Fur Coat/Volt Absorb Golisopod, or Levitate/Fur Coat Reshiram or Zekrom, but each of these can still be defeated by the right coverage. Either Pex set loses to Thousand Arrows or Photon Geyser and Fur Coat Golisopod takes 81.9 - 96.6% from Bolt Beak and is even a 2HKO by V-create after any chip. Levitate Reshiram and Zekrom also hate Thousand Arrows and are 2HKO and OHKO by Play Rough, respectively. Fur Coat Resh/Zek are both 2HKO at best by the right coverage. Not to mention that each of these options outside of Reshiram aren't doing much back to Zacian other than fishing for a Scald burn or hoping to chip Zacian some before it just switches out.

Imposter users can force Zacian out if they happen to come in safely, but that doesn't happen often from what I've seen in this meta other than on turn one. Imposter users most definitely cannot safely switch in to an incoming attack, though. Wobbuffet is cleanly OHKO by V-create and cleanly 2HKO by Sunsteel Strike. Eviolite Munchlax is also cleanly OHKO by V-create, is cleanly 2HKO by Precipice Blades, and has a 42.2% chance to be 2HKO by Sunsteel.

Basically, this mon is extremely fast and either 2HKOs or OHKOs the entire meta fairly easily and causes a panic each time it gets a free turn, which is often. Without Gorilla Tactics, it will still be a very dangerous threat while also being much less restricting on the meta. Intrepid Sword is another conversation to have, but it at least can be hazed, sapped, or stolen.

Gorilla Tactics Zacian also severely limits its doggo counterpart, Zamazenta, to basically one set in Fur Coat. While this set is great already and is also imposing on the meta with Body Press, this mon is almost forced to run it and be present on every team. It takes away from other potential sets Zama could run with its choice of almost any other defensive (or offensive) ability.

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

Sleep still exists without a clause on the ladder and that needs to go ASAP.

I think v-create is actually a huge problem since it hits almost all mons above 600 BST SE and close to one shots everything else. If I really wanted to I could probably make a sun team around gorrila tactics vcreate and completely tear through pretty much any stall team in the meta.

Body press is insanely hard to stop because it deals >50% to nearly all defensive mons I have tried even unboosted. It basically mandates any stall team has aegislash because haze is completely inadequate to deal with it and many fur coat users still struggle with it. Burn is completely ineffectual at stopping it and its really hard to take down a mon with cotton guard and fur coat up so I have spent many games just trying to pp stall it which is honestly ridiculous. You know its bad when people are running soak zamazenta.

Gorilla Tactics and Intrepid Sword are unbelievably broken. pls stop.

I really dislike banning mons on principle but i can see the argument for why Zacian needs to go. It's kind of stupid honestly.

Bolt beak- why is this allowed?



If I had to choose which of these to ban first there is no question in my mind that it is body press. I have seen teams with 6 mons running body press and peaking and there is a reason for that. It is almost impossible to check when your opponent can just run a bunch of fur coat and scrappy zazmantas and it completely centralizes team building. I've played about 100 games on the ladder so far and in those games these threats have been the ones that have obviously stood out to me as bannable

 

[Chrisbenso]

There 100% needs to be a sleep clause
Serene Grace + Double Iron bash feels really powerful

 

[SuperSkylake]

Thoughts on the meta rn:

actually burn does halve the damage body press users do to you, and I run prankster WoW on my prankster users to get it activated. At least that's how it works on the simulator. I've also tried out eviolite prankster Doublade which has even better physical bulk than Aegi. Haven't found much use for special bulk rn on my Prank users, FF Ferro holds against most of that shit including Hydreigon, MMY with Sheer Force, Darm-Z...

I do agree about Zac. I've heard a lot about the Guerilla Tactics set, and I've also had a lot of success running Technician Shell Smash with: Bonemerang, Double Iron Bash, Shell Smash and filler. I run Knock off to give utility before I am ready to set up because Zac forces so many switches that you can just knock random stuff off.

Darm-Z-G (darmanitan-zen-galar) is a cool threat with 160 atk and 135 Spe. Pretty much a cooler Kyurem-B because Dragon/Ice is a fairly redundant typing. Fire/Ice is way better, and Darm-ZG is a lot quicker. I've been running no retreat/pyro ball/multi attack/sunsteel @ Ground Memory (sadly, this set is not self improof because Darm-ZG is ohkoed by Pyro Ball). I use FF Ferro to improof this as well, and the Ground Memory lets me hit Toxapex though Bolt Beak can do this as well. Ground Memory just hits the Prankster set harder after a haze.
But I could see a choiced Guerilla/IS set working as well, though Icicle Crash is a fairly weak move, and there are plenty of Ice resists running around rn.

Imposter: Imposter both gained and lost this meta. On the positive side, the meta is a lot more offensive which means that Imposter can often countersweep after a few shaky Improofs get removed or things get paralyzed. Pikachu @ Light Ball is very scary with support. The con is that without Chansey and blissey, it's a good deal less bulky, with people resorting to Wobbafat @ Choice Scarf or Munchlax at Eviolite. Pretty sure Scarf is just better right now.

Double Iron Bash is really tough to deal with after setup like Smash or Shift Gear, because you often have to risk your wall flinching (51% chance), unless it's Prankster, and that can be easily punished with a double. It also breaks Focus Sash, so teams can't use Sash Spectral Thief to stop sweepers using it.

 

[Nevermor3]

Agreed with most of what was said, with the absence of the omnipresent walls of last gen(Gira, Registeel, POgre, Mag, MAudino etc) defensive options are a lot more limited.

A few thoughts are

1. Sleep Clause ASAP, I think it's been discussed already far too much last gen

2. Intrepid Sword and Gorilla tactics are both abilities that should be discussed, the former more than the latter, however. I'm not too sure on whether Zacian itself is the main problem in terms of being able to abuse these abilities but I'll need to play more to make a judgment.

3. With blissey and chansey being gone imposter needs to find new users so with some calcs I started to look for some replacements which come down to Wobbuffet for obvious reasons and the next best eviolite user which ends up being munchlax, unless there's a new mon I forgot about.

Using magearna to model for Zacian(gorilla tactics choice band ), Eviolite munchlax is 2hkoed by sunsteel and PBlades

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Magearna Sunsteel Strike vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Magearna: 237-279 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Wobbufet is 2hko'd too and potentially dies to Pblades
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Magearna Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Magearna: 354-417 (60.6 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Magearna Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Magearna: 566-668 (96.9 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

but can OHKO back
+1 252+ Atk Magearna Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Magearna: 378-446 (97.4 - 114.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

 

[Lcass4919]

so just bringing up that idk if you know this yet, but turns out just because a move has a description aside from "delete asap" doesn't mean its usable.

guy hacks in darkrai, ominous wind provides the "Delete asap" message, dark void does not, both are not usable.

basically, id bring ALL moves with no learners onto the table. some exaples of big staples that might go missing: Geomancy, V-create, diamond storm, tail glow, to name a few. another thing to note, is darkrais move data still applies to the pikachu-darkrai hybrid. so dark void should still treat it as a darkrai, thus, allow it to use the move.

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

I would say that in its current state the meta is nearly unplayable. BH has a history of having really long suspects but I think it's at the point where so much stuff needs to get fixed that we should look at the option of quick banning several things so the meta can actually be somewhat serviceable.

 

[lepton]

Corsola-Galar @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Roost
- Aromatherapy/whatever
- Haze

ive had a lot of success with this set so far in the early metagame. So far I’ve seen a lot of set up, and with ability ingoring Moves running around I think prank haze is really good. Walls some Zamazenta sets, and is great support. There probably is a better user for this set, but this is what ive used so far

 

[Rumors]

I've tooled around a little bit with some silly stuff on the meta so far, mainly spamming a bad 6 Banded Intrepid Sword Zacian team because I am everything that is wrong with the world. I don't see reason to take things too seriously until the coding's all done and we're certain whether the "Delete plz" moves are usable or not. (Hoping not because I've love to see stuff like Sunsteel Strike go die in a fire.)

One note, while Cotton Guard Body Press is annoying, it's seemingly best user, currently, is Zamazenta. One super overlooked move to help deal with it is... Sacred Sword. It's been a kinda crummy move most of the time its existed in BH, but it shines against Body Press Zama since it both ignores Cotton Guard boosts and is super effective. My cancer wolves can nearly OHKO Zama with the move. I'm sure something with STAB that sets up along Zamza or runs a Sash to set up in its face could trivially OHKO.

Not saying that makes Body Press shennanigans "not broken" or not (way too early to tell), but it is an option.

There's also Chip Away, but lolChipAway.


Also, Shedinja seems to be a hard stop to any Dynamax shenannigans, or at least most. Outside of Max Ice/Rock moves weather (which it can Goggle), there aren't any normal Max moves that hurt Shedinja. There might be a G-Max move I'm overlooking, however. Dynamax regardless feels manageable currently, as Max moves are a heck of a lot easier to tank than Z-moves and the Dynamax Pokemon loses all of its utility moves, like Taunt, Recover, status, pivoting, etc. Also some mons (fairies, dragons, ice, rocks) also risk taking an effective pre-STAB, pre-item, pre-ability, pre-boost BP 400 attack from Behemoth Blade, Dynamax Cannon, and... Zama's move whose name I forget if they go giant. Ouch!

 

[Lcass4919]

sword and shield rly changed the metagame a lot.......all the good mons gone but i do hv a few suggestions for substitution. (lol its gonna be worse)
btw we can use 'unreleased' mons currently, like reshiram but they technically arent in SwSh... can someone confirm if it is a bug thx


NormGar to Dragapult: both ghosts are super fast, as Dragapult is even faster, I think it does a better job on spamming entrainment on low ladder. however as it got a damn 100 spA from 170 it's gonna boost quite a bit before it can efficiently sweep. Also as this gen introduces the overpowered zacian-crowned and its still faster than our ghostly dragon it's not gonna be as useful as u thought.

Prankster/Mbounce/FlashFireSteel/Fur Coat: These are basically on mons that got huge sheer bulk, exact mon depends on yr team, but same again LOTS of those have been removed. ones that remain include golisopod, snorlax, melmetal, zamazenta?, hippowdon????, solgaleo, steelix (poor no mega), toxapex (im not saying its good in gen7 ok) and...idk

Aegislash got nerfed i kinda dont wanna use it

also ICE SCALES IS OUT BOIS so things like Melmetal, Golisopod get huge buffs in stalling. Zamazenta also get an alternative of being specially defensive if its pretending to be fur coat Steelix

I changed Reshiram for some Primogres, namely PHeal Qdance, im not sure on RegenVest as it kinda lacks a bit bulk...

Onto the legendaries, Kyurems are 'unreleased' atm but ofc I'm spamming those refrigerators. I currently don't see anything that completely checks/walls it as they could be priority specs scarf mixed... that looks scary

Ho-Oh, Dialga, Giratina, Xerneas, Yveltal, Regigigas, all the good old mons gone rip (megas mega rip)
Zacian-Crowned is definitely gonna dominate the meta (at least for a while)

Honestly all the removed mons punched a rly big hole here, im looking forward to seeing how the gen8 bh beta will change

(Also give respect to gamefreak they didnt remove the 1hp god)

resh, zek, kyurem, bulbasaur line, squirtle line, celebi, mew, mewtwo, jirachi, the muskateers+keldeo, rowlette line, popillio line, and litten line, cosmog, solgaleo, lunala, necrozma, and melmetal line (lol we almost thought they weren't in the game) have been confirmed to be in the games code, likely being stuff you can bring over from pokemon home/ obtain via event. if we can hack them in via gameshark-like-methods, we can use them in BH.

 

[Tmi489]

some exaples of big staples that might go missing: Geomancy, V-create, diamond storm, tail glow, to name a few.

notably v-create and accelerock are both 100% functional
i think this is already in showdown? but not sure
EDIT: I want to share a set that I used to really good success in BH Beta, but hasn't been working with the bulkier current meta - Unburden Darm!

proof? flex?

Darmanitan-Zen-Galar @ Psychic Seed / Normal Gem
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Close Combat
- Psychic Fangs / Earthquake / Bolt Beak / Fake Out
- Spore / Lovely Kiss / Bolt Beak

V-Create isn't strong enough to OHKO Zam without sun boost (or Etern without Psysurge Max Psychic Fangs) - but dynamaxed Darm-Z-G is real strong. Dynamaxed Darmanitan-Z-G notably survives a +2 DIB from Zacian (without Rocks) and proceeds to OHKO. Get Unburden up, then sweep teams with a weakened defensive core. Speed Boost is probably better - but Unburden is improofed. Also, Photon Geyser turns into a special move if dynamaxed (at least on showdown) so Psychic Fangs are prefrered.
Anything that resists V-Create can take on this set, so a partner like Mold Breaker Scarf Darm-Z-G or Zacian is preferred. This set may not even need Unburden if on a Webs team, outspeeding Zacian without the ability.

 

[avyrie]

Apparently, "Shore Up does not exist in Gen8."
"Bonemerang does not exist in Gen 8."
"Steam Eruption does not exist in Gen 8."
can anyone give a full list of the updated moves? im begging that it is a bug

EDIT: is ice face exclusive to Eiscue like disguise to Mimikyu does? it didn't specify like "If Eiscue", and changing Eiscue's form involves a stat change

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1015139775

Why is it that someone who can copy a mon 6 times can beat someone who has an actual team? Pretty much sums up how awful gen 8 is.

Can we at least consider banning forms of setup. Like I mean last gen we decided to go after shed (which went extremely well I hear) and now this gen they took away all the walls with base stat totals above 600 and crammed a bunch of OP breakers and moves down our throats. The problem is if anything multiple times worse than it was in the (already bad) last gen.

 

[Champion Leon]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1015139775

Why is it that someone who can copy a mon 6 times can beat someone who has an actual team? Pretty much sums up how awful gen 8 is.

Can we at least consider banning forms of setup. Like I mean last gen we decided to go after shed (which went extremely well I hear) and now this gen they took away all the walls with base stat totals above 600 and crammed a bunch of OP breakers and moves down our throats. The problem is if anything multiple times worse than it was in the (already bad) last gen.

I feel like you could have saved Reshiram from the second Photon Geyser, and preserved it for its strong Fire coverage to break its Steel typing, and that could have been done by Dynamaxing sooner with Golisipod.

In either case, I appreciate your use of Darmanitan-Zen Mode, as it is the absolute best counter to Zacian, which actually still holds even after considering the ones you faced had Photon Geyser, over SunSteel Strike. That move to avoid Spiky Shield and King’s Shield doesn’t hold a candle to Darmanitan-Z.

If you had given it Blue Flare, Fur Coat, and had Haze, Topsy Turvey, and / or Spectral Thief on any pokemon, then I would think you would perform much better. Even Destiny Bond, Perish Song, etc. would be great force out options. Give the defensive legendary Zamata Fur Coat, and it will do very well, especially if it had Spectral Thief.

Apparently, "Shore Up does not exist in Gen8."
"Bonemerang does not exist in Gen 8."
"Steam Eruption does not exist in Gen 8."
can anyone give a full list of the updated moves? im begging that it is a bug

EDIT: is ice face exclusive to Eiscue like disguise to Mimikyu does? it didn't specify like "If Eiscue", and changing Eiscue's form involves a stat change

Aw, I just played 2 days ago and it validated my team.

 

[Roldski32]

Apparently, "Shore Up does not exist in Gen8."
"Bonemerang does not exist in Gen 8."
"Steam Eruption does not exist in Gen 8."
can anyone give a full list of the updated moves? im begging that it is a bug

Sadly, it is not a bug. It is a feature-related introduced in Generation 8, where some moves are unclickable in the game.
Here is the proof from Mechanics Research in case you don't believed in me. It also includes pictures coming from the cartridge itself.
Reminder that this is stated on the OP:
"Balanced Hackmons (BH) is an Other Meta that allows you to use nearly anything possible that you can battle with in a local battle between players, in the most current cartridge."