BH BH Central Resources Thread


Sé que a ti te gustan mis labios de fresa
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
approved by OM Moderators

What is Balanced Hackmons?
Conceptually, BH is defined as a sandbox tier where one can use Pokemon to their fullest potential with normal restrictions being removed.
What is the Balanced Hackmons Central?
The purpose of this thread is to discuss the resources herein. To participate in BH General Discussion, join us at the [Gen 8] Balanced Hackmons Ladder Thread

Other Links:
  • Balanced Hackmons Discord (Including RMT Channel!)
Balanced Hackmons Central Resources Staff:
E4 Flint
a loser
Want to become involved? Contact one of us through PM on Smogon/PS and we'll evaluate you for joining the team!
Want to give feedback on the layout/formatting of this thread? PM any of the BHCR staff!
Last edited by a moderator:


Sé que a ti te gustan mis labios de fresa
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Balanced Hackmons Viability Rankings
S Rank


A Rank







B Rank






:Necrozma-Dusk-Mane:Necrozma Dusk Mane

C Rank

:Necrozma-Dawn-Wings:Necrozma Dawn Wings

D Rank

:Type-Null:Type: Null
Finally a VR! But I don't understand some ranks...
My thoughts :

Rises :

:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen A->A+(maybe S). It is as strong as Zacian-C, and you must run a Fur Coat or a Premordial sea to counter it. The band Intrepid Sword (or Mold Breaker / Desolate land) is so hard to handle because it depend to the coverage. Also it could use a lure set with Choice scarf to RK or kill anything faster,a Shell Smash set and a gimmick Refrigerate set. I think it deserve a A+ because it centralizes a lot the meta.

:Golisopod:Golisopod B -> B+. A good defensive pokemon who resist Ground AND Fighting, and is pretty unique in BH.

:Seismitoad:Seismitoad C -> A (or A-). One of the best Fur Coat user fo me. It is immune to Bolk Beak, resist V-create, not weak to Close Combat or Earthquake, have a strong physical bulk with Fur Coat. So it is a good check against a lot of physical threats user like Zekrom/Zeraora/Zacian-C/Darm-GZ and I must forgot some pokemon... Yes the meta change and more of Intrepid Sword user use Power Whip as coverage, but isn't that a sign of utility and viability?

:Snorlax:Snorlax C -> A (or A-). A good Prankster, can also use Fur Coat or Ice Scales for a Mixed/Special wall or PH utility, and all this deseves a rank C? Also doesn't mention the surprise Imposer set.

:Excadrill:Excadrill C-> B. Certainly it doesn't look like that but it's a great wallbreaker with the Band Mold Breaker set. Also the Ground Stab is cool because you have a few viable resist ground check.

:Type-Null:Type: Null D -> B+ (or highter). It is a good Special wall with Ice Scales and eviolite, it could wall Mewtwo, Eternatus, and Lunala sets (if doesn't run Photon Geyser but Psystrike).


:Zekrom:Zekrom A+ -> A. Just maybe a bit overestimated.Is good but not as Darm-GZ for me.

:Solgaleo:Solgaleo :Toxapex:Toxapex B+ -> B-. I didn't see them a lot and Melmetal / Eternatus do just better than them.

:Aegislash:Aegislash B -> B-. Never see him. I think Ferro is a better steel (without Melmetal) because of the Ground/Electric resistance. But the Fighting immunity could be relevent I think.

:Darmanitan-Zen:Darmanitan-Zen B -> C or D. Just never see this. Maybe a D rank. I give him the benefit of the doubt. If an other player can say something about it.

Edit : Change the presentation (rises and drops) and also specify why I see Seismitoada A Rank.
Last edited:
Nice to see the VR up. A lot of these are repeats of DF-Shock’s noms but I feel pretty strongly about them.


Darmanitan-Galar-Zen to A+
The presence of Darm’s V-create forces basically any team to run a fire immunity, and Darm can even break through a good number of those. Could potentially see this at S as well but I think A+ is a better place.

Lunala to A-
The tier basically doesn’t have Ghost resists, so you’re free to spam Moongeist in a lot of matchups. Really not a lot of good switch-ins exist, and it’s speed tier is definitely acceptable.

Gyarados to B
This basically does the same thing Zekrom does but with Rend instead of Beak. Super hard to wear down and water resists basically all get destroyed by EQ.

Excadrill to B/B+
It’s speed tier is annoying but basically every defensive mon besides Golisopod or Corviknight (who both get beat with Bolt Beak if you want to do that) wants nothing to do with this. Its power is still acceptable with Scarf if you want to patch up that speed as well. Super underutilized atm in my eyes, biggest thing is that you need to make some predictions with switchins. Could also see A- but I’ll be conservative for now.

Seismitoad to B
Stats are shit and the meta is adapting to it somewhat but you can’t tell me that a mon that beats most sets of everything in S and A+ along with Darm-GZ doesn’t deserve higher than C.

Zacian to B
Definitely good but a bit overvalued in my eyes. It’s bulk is simply just decent, and a supportive Fairy really just doesn’t seem like a good typing right now.

Darmanitan-Zen to B-/C/D
Haven’t really used this but it doesn’t really seem to hold up on paper. It gets at least 2HKOed by a ton of top mons (Zacian-C, Darm-GZ, and Kyurem-W beat it with ground coverage, Zekrom and Lunala laugh at it, etc.), and I really don’t see much of a reason to use it over current C-rank stuff like Snorlax and Seismitoad.
Last edited:
New VR Nomination:
Incineroar ur-> D: This is a surprisingly resilient prankster user. The reason it's so good as a prankster is that it's a Dark-type that has a neutrality to U-Turn, and actually okay bulk. The 115 Attack isn't bad either, and you really should run Knock Off for this too. Being Resistant to Fire and burns lets it check setup Reshirams better than a lot of other stuff. Having a dark-type Prankster is really nice in this meta since specs Lunala/Necro-DW are a bitch to switch into otherwise, and they're pretty much forced to predict with Secret Sword to make headway, and you can often make a midground play then. Earthquake and rend weakness and Bolt Beak neutrality really sucks for it though, so you pretty much have to run a solid defensive core with it, but if you can cover those bases this thing can live a surprisingly long time. The set I have tried is Knock Off / Recover / Haze / Rapid Spin, with that powerful knock off keeping the Ghost-types away. I run full speed evs on it so that it can actually outspeed things after a spin, such as Lunala trying to come in on a pivot move.

Thoughts on VR:

Darmanitan-GZ A -> A+: Darm-gZ puts enormous pressure from team preview for most teams, even those who have a solid resist like FC Etern. It actually seems to run abilities in a sort of rock-paper-scissors fashion. Desolate Land can beat Primsea but loses to Flash Fire and FC and is generally the weakest, Mold Breaker beats Flash Fire and FC but loses to primsea, and Intrepid Sword can bust through some FCs like toad but loses to Primsea and Flash Fire. But having to have at least two mons to have Darm totally covered is pretty wild, to say nothing of the coverage moves it might have. And then there's non choiced sets. So where it fails in bulk and typing, it makes up in versatility, and I think it should move up.

Lunala b+ -> a-: Is probably the best Ghost-type we have right now, and Ghost-types are super good. Lunala can run either a Specs set or a more gimmicky but still fearsome Sheer Force set that can let it break through Dark-types if it runs the correct coverage move. QD/Shadow Ball/Psychic/Earth Power is great for most of the meta except for the bulky normals like Lax and Null,. And if you want to lure those, a +1 Focus Blast will teach Snorlax a lesson it will never forget.

Barrascuda b -> B+: Outspeeding Darm-GZ by one point lets this mon check it, and it getting it in safely prety much dictates what your op will do if he doesn't want to get a mon Fisheous Rended to death. Forcing play is an extremely great trait for any mon.
Seismatoad and Rhydon C -> B+: Both of these are rated vastly too low as checks to VFB (V-Create, Fisheous Rend and Bolt Beak), and deserve a way higher rating than they have right now. Seismatoad is the more defensive option while Rhydon is more of a risky tank because of its vulnerability to Koff and no passive recovery, but they both serve similar purposes. I think they're about comparable viability.

Type: Null D -> B-: You don't get much better than Type: Null as a special wall with Ice Scales. Able to easily shrug off crazy strong hits like Reshiram's Specs full power Eruption is nothing to be scoffed at. It suffers from the problem that most other Evio walls do, as in it gets worn down easily by passive damage, but that isn't a problem with it inherently. Having a Ghost immunity doesn't hurt either, letting it play as a sort of pivot against Entrain Dragapult and Specs Lunala. I've also tried Magic Bounce, and that isn't too horrible either, just have to play it more carefully in that case. It also has actual offensive presence unlike FC Chans did last gen, which is refreshing.


Zacian B -> B-: Just not that good. The stats are all okay, the speed is great which lets it run Mold Breaker annoyance lead sets pretty well, but even the PH Octolock set has limited use these days because Fairy is just not a great attacking type weirdly enough.

Rhyperior D -> UR: What is this thing even doing? It never occured to me to even run this mon.

Silvally-Grass d -> UR: Probably outclassed all the way by Celebi or Gorgeist-xl, I don't really see what this has going for it that they don't have besides a neutrality to Knock Off. It's easily 2hkoed by the strongest Rends and bolt Beaks in the meta like Zekrom's +1 Intrepid Sword, and that's why you would actually run it.
:melmetal: He seems a bit high and dry up here when he does have competition.
:zekrom: A, this mon sure is threatening with its solid bulk and typing and Bolt Beak but there are 10 million mons that can rk it and every team should carry an electric resist so it isn't as threatening as it seems.
:darmanitan-galar-zen: A+, good mon
:reshiram: A-/B+, why is it so high lol, its hampered by GDZ's popularity and while it can check some popular mons like zac-c and darm and ph zek it again suffers from a poor speed tier.
:kyurem-black: B, oh boy this mon is just not good. It's priority is solid but it doesn't really revenge stuff. Bulky mons like Melmetal just eat it and overall it is just not as threatening as its counterpart. Physical walls like Fur Coat mons are just too popular for it to be effective.
:ferrothorn: B/B-, I have never used this mon but a large reason is it just doesn't have the bulk to take on strong moves. You basically need FC to wall Fish and Beak but then you just die to Vc...
:lunala: this mon is fine at B+ actually, it 2HKOs a lot but it doesn't OHKO a lot which is... a big problem when you have 2 massive weaknesses, and both types have common utility moves.
:mewtwo: this mon is actually fire Sheer Force seemingly has 0 checks? Could be A- but I think I will use it before nomming it
:solgaleo: B/B-, No this mon is bad, doesn't have enough bulk to check stuff and Mewtwo and friends run like Fire+Ground coverage so you basically do nothing. Offensive sets are inferior to Zac or NDM and DIB got smashed.
:toxapex: B, lacking bulk is a huge deterrence because it requires an ability to check mons. Levi FC VA IS are all very necessary abilities and you cannot run them all at once which is very problematic. Not the worse though, probably better than Ferro.
:zacian: This mon is honestly fine, it's one of the better checks to Zama and it is a solid abuser of the broken Octolock to break some teams. Fairy isn't great offensively but its very solid against offensive mons.
:aegislash: B-, no bulk no good resists why are you not using Melm this doesn't wall Zama they run Knock and EQ and Bolt Beak so you just DIE.
:barraskewda: B+, matchup fish is good, checks are very rare and speed tier is great.
:darmanitan-zen: This mon seems ok to be at B, has the Toxapex Syndrome (wants every ability) but again does its job well with the proper ability.
:golisopod: B+, yeah people said this already but very nice typing.
:munchlax: UR??? I'm pretty confident that this is outclassed by Leftovers/Shell Imposter as even with Evio it lacks the bulk to switch in to mons and people are still improofing everything. Leftovers and Shell both scout sets much better since the former can mitigate chip damage and have nice longevity while latter is Shell which we all know is good. Use Snorlax if you want to improof Lunala or smth.
:pikachu: B- at best, every mon is so offensive this gen so Pikachu is straight up OHKOed by any move. Popularity of Zekrom and Zeraora and Misc PH mons makes it life very difficult too.
:gyarados: B, its good defensively and its solid offensively so it is kinda versatile in a way? Other's explained this so yeah.
:dragapult: B/B+, Octo Taunt Entrain, how do you beat this without immensely fat bouncer.
:excadrill: B-, anti-meta mon, strong EQs is great when there are minimal resists.
:seismitoad: B? It isn't that great of a mon but its typing is phenomenal and you can't deny how popular it is. Timid Toad is legendary btw. It does have the awkward problem of having 3 other family members being very similar (gastro quag and whis) but I think it is the best overall.
:snorlax: I'm not sure what the hype on this is, sure you are annoying and stuff but you have poor physical bulk and your typing doesn't check a lot of special mons either.
:steelix: B-, actually really nice electric immunity and can pick between abilities to check Fish or Vc, a solid alternative to Melm.
:bisharp::rhyperior::silvally-grass:UR ????? what do these mons do.
:incineroar: echoing the nom, I have used this a couple of times but basically its a defensive dark and we know what those do but it has solid offensive presence and the fire typing is very helpful for chipping Melmetal and stuff. It also allows it to act as a Fire and soft check stuff like Zacian-C while tanking Moonblasts easily. Oh with Scales it can check Kyu-W too so thats cool.
:type null: This should stay here, Ice Scales Null is an overly hyped set that is basically like the FC Chansey of last gen, something that can "check" a bunch of stuff (when it takes like 40+ from everything strong) while being immensely passive and easy to take advantage of.
:lapras-gmax: D. One of the best Kyurem-W switch-ins in the game and checks Kyu-B as well. VA is probably the only set so it can check stuff like Zekrom and soft check Zeraora. Very annoying to switch-in as well with Scald and Beam/Freeze-Dry.

GL Volkner

you offered hope, salvation
is a Tiering Contributor
personally i don't think any pokemon is outstanding enough to be in s rank. you could make a push for zacc or darmgz but idk about those either. it's not like every meta 100% needs an s rank too, i'd drop melm to a+.

worth considering ranking imposter over wobb. with chansey's removal it's a lot more viable to run different imposter pokemon that improof other sets on your team by value of typing (imposter wailord to improof some gdarmz, etc)
Gonna post some thoughts as well.
Melmetal is def a top mon but not sure it deserves its own tier.
Zacian crown has lost some of its power with the restrictions and dib gone should prob be in the same tier with zeraora and give its place to darm gz.
Kyu-b should go to B tier to fit his name better.
Lunala and draga should be a bit higher up,normal zacian should drop a bit as well.
Some mons at C and D also feel underapreciated like snorlax toad rhydon type null like other mentioned,maybe even drill and umbreon.

Overall nice to have one of this for gen 8,maybe some sample teams will follow
:Zacian-Crowned: > S This fits so easily onto so many teams and just does it all every single game. Checks every offensive threat, really hard to switch into consistently bc it has so many good coverage options + it can run all kinds of utility moves like hazards, Taunt, Volt Switch, Strength Sap, whatever. The amount of general utility Zac-C provides while also having extremely limited offensive and defensive counterplay is really wild, imo this is the best mon in the tier currently.
:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: > A+ funny snowman click v-create
:Eternatus: > A+ Defensive sets are excellent and Sheer Force is one of the hardest mons to deal with in the whole tier bc most of the stuff that actually threatens etern gets outsped and it has a billion good coverage options. Sometimes it just clicks Quiver Dance and you lose the game, easily one of the strongest/most versatile threats in the meta.
:Zamazenta-Crowned: > A+ Another crazy versatile mon. Can run most of the same sets as Melmetal, trading some physical bulk and slow pivots for way more offensive presence and much better special bulk, which is definitely a tradeoff worth making for a lot of teams. Ice Scales is one of the only good Kyu-W switchins in the tier which is a really relevant niche. Also has some cool and very underexplored offensive sets, I've really been liking Scarf Intrepid Sword lately.
:Kyurem-White: > A One of the hardest mons to switch into in the whole tier, there's basically nothing decent that avoids the 2HKO from Specs Boomburst. Benefits a lot from people running stuff like Seismitoad and Steelix bc they have to click Recover heaps and you can just go hard into Kyu-W and press the boomburst button. Also checks a ton of Zek/Zera/fish sets
:Lunala: > A- So hard to fit ghost resists because they all suck and the few that we do have absolutely cop it from Psystrike/Secret Sword. Also surprisingly fat and outspeeding the Unova Dragons is a fat W
:Dragapult: > B+ Purely on the strength of the completely bullshit Octolock + Taunt set

:Zacian: > B-/C Just doesn't really do anything. Lack of good STAB options makes offensive sets really underwhelming (and usually outclassed by Zac-C) and its bulk/resists are not good enough for defensive sets to be worth running. It looks OK on paper but in practice Zacian doesn't really have any good sets except for the kinda gimmicky PH Octolock stuff, and it cannot ever get past Melmetal.
:Kyurem-Black: > B- The only sets Kyu-B runs that aren't outclassed by DGZ are Refrigerate sets, and those aren't particularly good bc priority kinda sucks when stuff can just Dynamax and almost all the fast mons are either bulky or resist Ice. Has to run wack stuff to beat Melmetal.
:Solgaleo: > B-/C Pretty thoroughly outclassed by Zac-C, Melm, and Zama-C in most of its roles. Same issue that the previous mons have of just having super limited options against Melm. Almost never play against this mon and have not felt any desire to put it on a team in a long while.
:Pikachu: > D garbage

I think this VR really overrates a bunch niche defensive mons, most of these are some combination of inconsistent, easy to wear down, overly passive, forced to run bad abilities, and hard to fit onto teams. In general these mons just don't quite have the natural bulk to do what you want them to and just end up being really inflexible and kinda mediocre as a result.

:Ferrothorn: > C
:Toxapex: > B-
:Aegislash: > C
:Corviknight: > D
:Doublade: > D
:Hippowdon: > UR
:Mandibuzz: > D/UR
:Umbreon: > D
:Celebi: > UR
:Rhyperior: > UR
:SIlvally-Grass: > UR


:Chandelure: > UR just run reshiram


is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
:reshiram: A-/B+, why is it so high lol, its hampered by GDZ's popularity and while it can check some popular mons like zac-c and darm and ph zek it again suffers from a poor speed tier.
Not gonna touch on the rest of the noms as I mostly agree but I just wanted to bring this up due to how much I disagree with it. Reshiram is in no way hampered by DGZ's popularity; in fact it benefits from exactly this. The most common Fire checks in the meta are built for DGZ - this leads to them being physical walls such as Primsea Melm that are easy enough for Resh to bypass.

Resh and DGZ have very different strengths in general and I don't think it would be fair to say that teams running Resh should replace it with DGZ at all. DGZ is obviously a hit and run mon, and it does this very well due to that stupid powerful V-create with barely any proper resists in the tier. It does take some support to pivot in but that's easy enough to come by in BH. Reshiram takes a different approach to breaking, where instead of clicking V-create when it gets the chance to take something out it clicks either QD or Plume. This is actually very effective due to Resh's large amount of positive matchups in the upper ranks, buying it time to sit in front of opponents and prevent them from actually making any progress. What normally happens instead when playing against Resh is that some fat mon is forced to come in against it, and it will almost always be passive to either Resh itself or literally everything else, while nearly anything fat also risks stupid dumb Plume burn that will hamper it for the rest of the game. The closest example I can offer for this kind of idea is Gen 7 Xerneas, which gradually rose though the ranks as people realised that it was capable of both gatekeeping offensive mons and punishing defensive mons, and it proved to be able to win a lot of games long-term at little cost.

DGZ should be in A+ imo, but I don't think S is really fitting due to a few limitations. As I said earlier, DGZ teams require some solid means of getting it in, and while the support is available, it doesn't necessarily always work due to other controlling factors in the metagame. Mons like Zac-C, Resh, and even Zama are all capable of dominating the game state or in the case of the PH users at least spending a ton of time on the field in the face of pivots. On top of this DGZ is super weak to rocks, so any strategy that involves getting them up will hamper Darm's effectiveness. The last thing I'd point out is that Darm is pretty frail and at least temporarily choiced (thanks Dynamax), which means it's still somewhat prediction reliant, especially in situations against opposing Dynamax. This means that even in a game where DGZ has a strong matchup on paper, it doesn't immediately become the wincon, and if it is prevented from doing its funny bouncy fire boi thing the teams around it can struggle to make ground. All of the scenarios I listed above are better handled by mons with more longevity, which is just another reason why Resh shouldn't drop.

I was gonna say here I might edit in some noms of my own but MAMP just posted as well so I really don't have much to say that isn't already being discussed so yeah lol cya.
Last edited:
Nice to see all this discussion on the VR and get an idea of everyone's thoughts. I definitely didn't think we'd get this nailed down perfectly on the first try, especially since the meta is still changing a lot and people are still finding new viable sets and strategies. I'm gonna go through these and give some of my thoughts on the general rises/drops that are mentioned above.

Thoughts on rises:
:darmanitan-galar-zen: Darm-GZ is very threatening and has a lot of impact on building, but people seem to forget it is 4x weak to Stealth Rock, has frail defensive stats, and is outsped by some very prominent offensive threats. I think A is fine for it right now.
:lunala: Lunala's Specs Adapt set is really good, but still being walled by things like Ice Scales Umbreon and certain Mandibuzz sets along with potentially being checked by Snorlax and Tyranitar should keep this from rising. Not to mention its crippling 4x weaknesses lack of longevity due to being effected by all kinds of hazards.
:excadrill: Excadrill's anti-meta STABs are still really good, even though it misses DIB. While it is pretty frail and has a weird speed tier, Excadrill is a threatening choice user and setup sweeper, so I think B- sounds better for it.
:seismitoad: Toad is really good right now (especially once people pick up on using Earth Power with it) and definitely think it should be higher than C.
:type-null: I don't think Type: Null is as passive as FC Chansey, but I'm not buying the hype for it either. Depending on Eviolite and abilities to check threats make this mon a lot easier to play around and eventually break past.
:dragapult: Octolock + Taunt sets are making the rounds and are certainly better than setup Normalize variants, but all its sets suffer the same vulnerabilities like Knock Off, burns/para/poison, Prankster Encore, etc and I don't think it should rise. Especially not based on one move that is pretty broken.
:barraskewda: The fish and its fish move are really strong, even more so under rain, but being so frail and not quite as fast or strong as it wants to be make me think that B is a good enough place for it.
:golisopod: Goli is good, but it wants to run too many sets at once. Not sure how else to put it, but I think its fine where it is right now.
:gyarados: I can get behind Gyarados rising to B. I've used it some lately and Fishious Rend is crazy and setting hazards on switches and/or kinda self-improofing with Will-O-Wisp is really nice for it.
:snorlax: Not many people talked about Snorlax (and Snorlax for A rank is a little much) but I'm a big fan of it. Prankster, Poison Heal, and Ice Scales are all good on it as well as running Imposter to help improof certain mons. B- or a little higher seems more appropriate for it.

Thoughts on drops:
:zacian: I've never been impressed by Zacian this gen and am even less impressed by the fact that its best sets rely on Ocotolock and still have trouble getting rid of Steels. I also think this should drop.
:kyurem-black: I agree that Kyu-B was a little too high and should probably drop to B rank, but I think people are still sleeping on its potential. Refrigerate is the go-to thanks to Extreme Speed and the Rapid Spin buff, but sharing 170 Attack with Zacian-C is not a small thing (and it has better bulk than DGZ).
:aegislash: Aegislash is hurting post Shedinja ban. He's still decent if you really need a Ghost-type, Flash Fire, or Prankster mon, but I'm ok with it dropping.
:darmanitan-zen: Darm-Zen is underutilized so far this gen but has the potential to be a nice wall with a couple options for abilities. I think it should stay in B.
:solgaleo: I agree that Solgaleo is too high. With DIB gone, it's back to playing defense and it's not the best mon for the job in the current meta.
:toxapex: I think Pex is a good mon, and while Eternatus has better bulk, Toxapex's Water-typing is really handy for resisting Ice and Steel attacks. It can be worn down a little too easily, but I don't think it needs to drop.
:melmetal: Melmetal is really good and almost needs to be on every team, but I can get behind dropping it to A+ and removing the S rank for now.

The D rank is a little too crowded right now, and I agree that some of these need to go, mainly Rhyperior, and probably Silvally-Grass. I'm not sure about the noms of Incineroar and Lapras to D rank since I haven't used them, but they seem to fit right in with the crowd in D rank.
I would argue the best kyub set is Poison Heal utility. I have ran Dragon Darts / Spikes / Will-o-Wisp / Shift Gear, and improofed it with a MB Steel-type. Dragon Darts is its strongest stab move and hits a bunch of targets for ohkos including Etern, Zek and Resh with no boost and an adamant nature. It's a lot better than the refrigerate blue flare set for sure, and the bulk and longevity is insane. It also gets free spikes on a lot of the meta because most Steels aren't running Bounce, and the ones that do are threatened out by every good special attacker in the meta.

Champion Leon

Formerly OM!

I feel Darmanitan-Zen Mode (Unova) is right for being just beneath Toxapex, as it’s resistance to Psychic, Burn immunity, and neutrality to Bolt Beak allow it fill a void that Toxapex lacks. It’s 140 SpA 1HKOs Excadrill via Blue Flare, while Scald Toxapex is always a 3HKO Vs Excadrill (who carries the stronger than Earthquake move in Bolt Beak).
Darm Vs CB Intrepid Sword Excadrill:

252 SpA Darmanitan-Zen Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Excadrill: 462-546 (108.9 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Zen: 288-342 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (No hazard damage due to Heavy-Duty Boots; Spikes doesn’t make it a 1HKO either way).

CB Intrepid Sword Excadrill Vs Toxapex

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Toxapex: 250-296 (82.2 - 97.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes OR Stealth Rock
Further, Darmanitan-Zen can 1HKO Zacian-Crowned with minor chip damage, and doesn’t give it chances to set-up and sweep.
252 SpA Darmanitan-Zen Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 320-380 (82.4 - 97.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Zen: 140-166 (33.8 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Still, Toxapex is not weak to Moongeist Beam, nor Fishous Rend, and can use more items like Black Sludge and Rocky Helmet, while Darmanitan-Zen Mode relies on Heavy-Duty Boots to stay effective, although Leftovers can be used well when you have Defog support.

Further, Toxapex can absorb Toxic Spikes and is immune to the Poison status (I.e. if Darmanitan-Z uses Spectral Thief while the foe uses Baneful Bunker). Still, thanks to Heavy-Duty Boots, Darmanitan-Zen Mode doesn’t fear Toxic Spikes, either.

Their unique, yet comparable typing enables them both to resist Fighting, Fairy, Steel, Fire, and Ice, and are able to use their mixed bulk to survive resisted hits from both sides of the spectrum.

Thus, I agree with the Council in that they should stay in B+, and B, respectively, since their key resistances allow them to use Fur Coat, rather than Flash Fire, so they can better handle Darmanitan-Glarian-Zen Mode and Zacian-Crowned. Still, I understand if the key 1HKOs for Excadrill, and Zacian-Crowned make Darmanitan-Zen Mode more on par to B+, especially since Darmanitan-Zen Mode can also cleanly 1HKO Melmetal, and Corviknight, while Aegislash, and Dusk-Mane/Solgaleo are 1HKOed with minor chip damage.
1582020968860.pngSeismitoad with Fur Coat seems limited:

252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 211-249 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Plus, if you get Flinched, it’s not like you can even hit back with a STAB attack.

While it isn’t weak to Bolt Beak, or V-Create its neutrality doesn’t help it where it counts.

Next, when it comes to Zacian-Crowned, it isn't limited by a Choice Lock, so it can simply use Spore and/or Shell Smash on the switch in, effectively negating Fur Coat at +2 Atk.

Attackers with stronger Atk, like Choice Band Dusk-Mane (it can use Photon Geyser to replace Mold Breaker with Intrepid Sword), do even more to Seismitoad, as Fur Coat is ignored. Resistances are the only way, so I do think Seismitoad is perhaps too highly regarded

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 402-474 (97.1 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

If they send in a Steel-type to resist its STAB, it could Dynamax out of Choice lock and use Max-Flare, Max-Knuckle, etc. and get stronger from the effects the following turn.

I think Seismitoad is good if the foe isn’t using Mold Breaker/Moldy Moves, and that means even without STAB:

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 247-291 (59.6 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I could see it on Darmanitan-Galar-Zen for handling Fur Coat/Unaware Toxapex, Eternatus, etc. and for Psychic Terrain under Dynamax. Power Whip seems much less a necessity here if Seismitoad switches into a Photon Geyser and can be 2HKOed.

I do think it is better than C, but I don’t think it is as good as people believe it is. B- seems fair, since it lacks the resistances for the other coverage moves it will face beyond Steel, Fire and Electric, while also not able to really use its SpD to handle some of the mixed attackers.
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)