BH BH Central Resources Thread

Funbot28

Men say I taste like sugar but ain't shit sweet
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
approved by OM Moderators

What is Balanced Hackmons?
Conceptually, BH is defined as a sandbox tier where one can use Pokemon to their fullest potential with normal restrictions being removed.
What is the Balanced Hackmons Central?
The purpose of this thread is to discuss the resources herein. To participate in BH General Discussion, join us at the [Gen 8] Balanced Hackmons Ladder Thread

Index:
Other Links:
Tournaments:
Social
  • Balanced Hackmons Discord (Including RMT Channel!)
Balanced Hackmons Central Resources Staff:
a loser
Funbot28
MAMP
Willdbeast
Want to become involved? Contact one of us through PM on Smogon/PS and we'll evaluate you for joining the team!
Want to give feedback on the layout/formatting of this thread? PM any of the BHCR staff!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Funbot28

Men say I taste like sugar but ain't shit sweet
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Balanced Hackmons Viability Rankings
S Rank

:Eternatus:Eternatus
:Zacian-Crowned:Zacian-Crowned

A Rank

A+

:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen
:melmetal:Melmetal
:Zamazenta-Crowned:Zamazenta-Crowned
:Zekrom:Zekrom

A

:Reshiram:Reshiram
:Wobbuffet:Wobbuffet
:Zamazenta:Zamazenta

A-

:Kyurem-White:Kyurem-White
:Lunala:Lunala
:Mewtwo:Mewtwo

B Rank

B+

:Golisopod:Golisopod
:Zeraora:Zeraora

B

:Barraskewda:Barraskewda
:Kyurem-Black:Kyurem-Black
:Seismitoad:Seismitoad

B-

:Aegislash:Aegislash
:Darmanitan-Zen:Darmanitan-Zen
:Dragapult:Dragapult
:Excadrill:Excadrill
:Ferrothorn:Ferrothorn
:Gyarados:Gyarados
:Necrozma-Dusk-Mane:Necrozma Dusk Mane
:Solgaleo:Solgaleo
:Snorlax:Snorlax
:Toxapex:Toxapex
:Zacian:Zacian

C Rank

:Marshadow:Marshadow
:Necrozma-Dawn-Wings:Necrozma Dawn Wings
:Rhydon:Rhydon
:Steelix:Steelix
:Type-Null:Type: Null
:Tyranitar:Tyranitar
:Umbreon:Umbreon

D Rank

:bisharp:Bisharp
:Centiskorch:Centiskorch
:Chandelure:Chandelure
:Corviknight:Corviknight
:Doublade:Doublade
:Dusclops:Dusclops
:Escavalier:Escavalier
:Hippowdon:Hippowdon
:Incineroar:Incineroar
:Jellicent:Jellicent
:Keldeo:Keldeo
:Lapras:Lapras
:Mandibuzz:Mandibuzz
:Pikachu:Pikachu
:Primarina:Primarina
:Runerigus:Runerigus
:Torkoal:Torkoal
 
Last edited:

Funbot28

Men say I taste like sugar but ain't shit sweet
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Balanced Hackmons Speed Tiers

Very Speedy:


SpeedPokemonBase SpeedNatureEVsIVsBoosts
842:Dragapult:Dragapult142Positive25231+2
750:Zamazenta:Zamazenta138Neutral25231+2
710:Zamazenta-Crowned:Zamazenta-Crowned128Neutral25231+2
634:Kyurem-White:Kyurem-White95Positive25231+2
578:Kyurem-White:Kyurem-White95Neutral25231+2
558:Reshiram:Reshiram90Neutral25231+2
558:Zekrom:Zekrom90Neutral25231+2
550:Excadrill:Excadrill88Neutral25231+2
522:Gyarados:Gyarados81Neutral25231+2
518:Chandelure:Chandelure80Neutral25231+2
506:Necrozma Dawn Wings:Necrozma Dawn Wings77Neutral25231+2
506:Necrozma Dusk Mane:Necrozma Dusk Mane77Neutral25231+2
478:Bisharp:Bisharp70Neutral25231+2
475:Kyurem-White:Kyurem-White95Positive25231+1
442:Tyranitar:Tyranitar61Neutral25231+2
439:Lunala:Lunala97Neutral25231+1


Quite Speedy:


SpeedPokemonBase SpeedNatureEVsIVsBoosts
434:Zacian-Crowned:Zacian-Crowned148Positive252310
433:Kyurem-White:Kyurem-White95Neutral25231+1
423:Zeraora:Zeraora143Positive252310
421:Dragapult:Dragapult142Positive252310
418:Reshiram:Reshiram90Neutral25231+1
418:Zekrom:Zekrom90Neutral25231+1
412:Excadrill:Excadrill88Neutral25231+1
412:Zacian:Zacian138Positive252310
412:Zamazenta:Zamazenta138Positive252310
408:Barraskewda:Barraskewda136Positive252310
405:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen135Positive252310
395:Zacian-Crowned:Zacian-Crowned148Neutral252310
394:Eternatus:Eternatus130Positive252310
394:Mewtwo:Mewtwo130Positive252310
390:Zamazenta-Crowned:Zamazenta-Crowned128Positive252310
385:Zeraora:Zeraora143Neutral252310
383:Dragapult:Dragapult142Neutral252310
383:Marshadow:Marshadow125Positive252310
378:Golisopod:Golisopod45Neutral25231+2
375:Zacian:Zacian138Neutral252310
375:Zamazenta:Zamazenta138Neutral252310
371:Barraskewda:Barraskewda136Neutral252310
369:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen135Neutral252310


Moderate Speediness:


SpeedPokemonBase SpeedNatureEVsIVsBoosts
359:Eternatus:Eternatus130Neutral252310
359:Mewtwo:Mewtwo130Neutral252310
355:Zamazenta-Crowned:Zamazenta-Crowned128Neutral252310
349:Marshadow:Marshadow125Neutral252310
317:Kyurem-Black:Kyurem-Black95Positive252310
317:Kyurem-White:Kyurem-White95Positive252310
306:Reshiram:Reshiram90Positive252310
306:Zekrom:Zekrom90Positive252310
302:Excadrill:Excadrill88Positive252310
299:Celebi:Celebi100Neutral252310
293:Lunala:Lunala97Neutral252310
293:Solgaleo:Solgaleo97Neutral252310
289:Kyurem-Black:Kyurem-Black95Neutral252310
289:Kyurem-White:Kyurem-White95Neutral252310
289:Obstagoon:Obstagoon95Neutral252310
289:Silvally:Silvally95Neutral252310
279:Pikachu:Pikachu90Neutral252310
279:Reshiram:Reshiram90Neutral252310
279:Zekrom:Zekrom90Neutral252310
275:Excadrill:Excadrill88Neutral252310
270:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen135Positive25231-1
261:Gyarados:Gyarados81Neutral252310


Slow:


SpeedPokemonBase SpeedNatureEVsIVsBoosts
259:Chandelure:Chandelure80Neutral252310
259:Mandibuzz:Mandibuzz80Neutral252310
253:Necrozma Dawn Wings:Necrozma Dawn Wings77Neutral252310
253:Necrozma Dusk Mane:Necrozma Dusk Mane77Neutral252310
247:Seismitoad:Seismitoad74Neutral252310
246:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen135Neutral25231-1
239:Bisharp:Bisharp70Neutral252310
233:Corviknight:Corviknight67Neutral252310
229:Centiskorch:Centiskorch65Neutral252310
229:Umbreon:Umbreon65Neutral252310
221:Tyranitar:Tyranitar61Neutral252310
219:Aegislash:Aegislash60Neutral252310
219:Jellicent:Jellicent60Neutral252310
219:Primarina:Primarina60Neutral252310
217:Type Null:Type: Null59Neutral252310
209:Darmanitan-Zen:Darmanitan-Zen55Neutral252310
207:Gourgeist-Super:Gourgeist-Super54Neutral252310
204:Reshiram:Reshiram90Positive25231-1
193:Hippowdon:Hippowdon47Neutral252310
189:Golisopod:Golisopod45Neutral252310
186:Reshiram:Reshiram90Neutral25231-1
179:Rhydon:Rhydon40Neutral252310
179:Rhyperior:Rhyperior40Neutral252310
169:Doublade:Doublade35Neutral252310
169:Toxapex:Toxapex35Neutral252310
167:Melmetal:Melmetal34Neutral252310
165:Wobbuffet:Wobbuffet33Neutral252310
159:Runerigus:Runerigus30Neutral252310
159:Snorlax:Snorlax30Neutral252310
159:Steelix:Steelix30Neutral252310
149:Dusclops:Dusclops25Neutral252310
139:Escavalier:Escavalier20Neutral252310
139:Ferrothorn:Ferrothorn20Neutral252310
139:Torkoal:Torkoal20Neutral252310


Very Slow:


SpeedPokemonBase SpeedNatureEVsIVsBoosts
125:Corviknight:Corviknight67Negative000
121:Centiskorch:Centiskorch65Negative000
112:Aegislash:Aegislash60Negative000
112:Jellicent:Jellicent60Negative000
109:Munchlax:Munchlax5Neutral252310
103:Darmanitan-Zen:Darmanitan-Zen55Negative000
101:Gourgeist-Super:Gourgeist-Super54Negative000
89:Hippowdon:Hippowdon47Negative000
85:Golisopod:Golisopod45Negative000
67:Doublade:Doublade35Negative000
67:Toxapex:Toxapex35Negative000
65:Melmetal:Melmetal34Negative000
58:Runerigus:Runerigus30Negative000
58:Snorlax:Snorlax30Negative000
49:Dusclops:Dusclops25Negative000
40:Escavalier:Escavalier20Negative000
40:Ferrothorn:Ferrothorn20Negative000
40:Torkoal:Torkoal20Negative000
13:Munchlax:Munchlax5Negative000
 
Finally a VR! But I don't understand some ranks...
My thoughts :

Rises :

:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen A->A+(maybe S). It is as strong as Zacian-C, and you must run a Fur Coat or a Premordial sea to counter it. The band Intrepid Sword (or Mold Breaker / Desolate land) is so hard to handle because it depend to the coverage. Also it could use a lure set with Choice scarf to RK or kill anything faster,a Shell Smash set and a gimmick Refrigerate set. I think it deserve a A+ because it centralizes a lot the meta.

:Golisopod:Golisopod B -> B+. A good defensive pokemon who resist Ground AND Fighting, and is pretty unique in BH.

:Seismitoad:Seismitoad C -> A (or A-). One of the best Fur Coat user fo me. It is immune to Bolk Beak, resist V-create, not weak to Close Combat or Earthquake, have a strong physical bulk with Fur Coat. So it is a good check against a lot of physical threats user like Zekrom/Zeraora/Zacian-C/Darm-GZ and I must forgot some pokemon... Yes the meta change and more of Intrepid Sword user use Power Whip as coverage, but isn't that a sign of utility and viability?

:Snorlax:Snorlax C -> A (or A-). A good Prankster, can also use Fur Coat or Ice Scales for a Mixed/Special wall or PH utility, and all this deseves a rank C? Also doesn't mention the surprise Imposer set.

:Excadrill:Excadrill C-> B. Certainly it doesn't look like that but it's a great wallbreaker with the Band Mold Breaker set. Also the Ground Stab is cool because you have a few viable resist ground check.

:Type-Null:Type: Null D -> B+ (or highter). It is a good Special wall with Ice Scales and eviolite, it could wall Mewtwo, Eternatus, and Lunala sets (if doesn't run Photon Geyser but Psystrike).

Drops:

:Zekrom:Zekrom A+ -> A. Just maybe a bit overestimated.Is good but not as Darm-GZ for me.

:Solgaleo:Solgaleo :Toxapex:Toxapex B+ -> B-. I didn't see them a lot and Melmetal / Eternatus do just better than them.

:Aegislash:Aegislash B -> B-. Never see him. I think Ferro is a better steel (without Melmetal) because of the Ground/Electric resistance. But the Fighting immunity could be relevent I think.

:Darmanitan-Zen:Darmanitan-Zen B -> C or D. Just never see this. Maybe a D rank. I give him the benefit of the doubt. If an other player can say something about it.

Edit : Change the presentation (rises and drops) and also specify why I see Seismitoada A Rank.
 
Last edited:
Nice to see the VR up. A lot of these are repeats of DF-Shock’s noms but I feel pretty strongly about them.

Rises:

:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen:
Darmanitan-Galar-Zen to A+
The presence of Darm’s V-create forces basically any team to run a fire immunity, and Darm can even break through a good number of those. Could potentially see this at S as well but I think A+ is a better place.

:Lunala:
Lunala to A-
The tier basically doesn’t have Ghost resists, so you’re free to spam Moongeist in a lot of matchups. Really not a lot of good switch-ins exist, and it’s speed tier is definitely acceptable.

:gyarados:
Gyarados to B
This basically does the same thing Zekrom does but with Rend instead of Beak. Super hard to wear down and water resists basically all get destroyed by EQ.

:Excadrill:
Excadrill to B/B+
It’s speed tier is annoying but basically every defensive mon besides Golisopod or Corviknight (who both get beat with Bolt Beak if you want to do that) wants nothing to do with this. Its power is still acceptable with Scarf if you want to patch up that speed as well. Super underutilized atm in my eyes, biggest thing is that you need to make some predictions with switchins. Could also see A- but I’ll be conservative for now.

:Seismitoad:
Seismitoad to B
Stats are shit and the meta is adapting to it somewhat but you can’t tell me that a mon that beats most sets of everything in S and A+ along with Darm-GZ doesn’t deserve higher than C.

Drops:
:Zacian:
Zacian to B
Definitely good but a bit overvalued in my eyes. It’s bulk is simply just decent, and a supportive Fairy really just doesn’t seem like a good typing right now.

:Darmanitan-Zen:
Darmanitan-Zen to B-/C/D
Haven’t really used this but it doesn’t really seem to hold up on paper. It gets at least 2HKOed by a ton of top mons (Zacian-C, Darm-GZ, and Kyurem-W beat it with ground coverage, Zekrom and Lunala laugh at it, etc.), and I really don’t see much of a reason to use it over current C-rank stuff like Snorlax and Seismitoad.
 
Last edited:
New VR Nomination:
Incineroar ur-> D: This is a surprisingly resilient prankster user. The reason it's so good as a prankster is that it's a Dark-type that has a neutrality to U-Turn, and actually okay bulk. The 115 Attack isn't bad either, and you really should run Knock Off for this too. Being Resistant to Fire and burns lets it check setup Reshirams better than a lot of other stuff. Having a dark-type Prankster is really nice in this meta since specs Lunala/Necro-DW are a bitch to switch into otherwise, and they're pretty much forced to predict with Secret Sword to make headway, and you can often make a midground play then. Earthquake and rend weakness and Bolt Beak neutrality really sucks for it though, so you pretty much have to run a solid defensive core with it, but if you can cover those bases this thing can live a surprisingly long time. The set I have tried is Knock Off / Recover / Haze / Rapid Spin, with that powerful knock off keeping the Ghost-types away. I run full speed evs on it so that it can actually outspeed things after a spin, such as Lunala trying to come in on a pivot move.


Thoughts on VR:

Rises
Darmanitan-GZ A -> A+: Darm-gZ puts enormous pressure from team preview for most teams, even those who have a solid resist like FC Etern. It actually seems to run abilities in a sort of rock-paper-scissors fashion. Desolate Land can beat Primsea but loses to Flash Fire and FC and is generally the weakest, Mold Breaker beats Flash Fire and FC but loses to primsea, and Intrepid Sword can bust through some FCs like toad but loses to Primsea and Flash Fire. But having to have at least two mons to have Darm totally covered is pretty wild, to say nothing of the coverage moves it might have. And then there's non choiced sets. So where it fails in bulk and typing, it makes up in versatility, and I think it should move up.

Lunala b+ -> a-: Is probably the best Ghost-type we have right now, and Ghost-types are super good. Lunala can run either a Specs set or a more gimmicky but still fearsome Sheer Force set that can let it break through Dark-types if it runs the correct coverage move. QD/Shadow Ball/Psychic/Earth Power is great for most of the meta except for the bulky normals like Lax and Null,. And if you want to lure those, a +1 Focus Blast will teach Snorlax a lesson it will never forget.

Barrascuda b -> B+: Outspeeding Darm-GZ by one point lets this mon check it, and it getting it in safely prety much dictates what your op will do if he doesn't want to get a mon Fisheous Rended to death. Forcing play is an extremely great trait for any mon.
Seismatoad and Rhydon C -> B+: Both of these are rated vastly too low as checks to VFB (V-Create, Fisheous Rend and Bolt Beak), and deserve a way higher rating than they have right now. Seismatoad is the more defensive option while Rhydon is more of a risky tank because of its vulnerability to Koff and no passive recovery, but they both serve similar purposes. I think they're about comparable viability.

Type: Null D -> B-: You don't get much better than Type: Null as a special wall with Ice Scales. Able to easily shrug off crazy strong hits like Reshiram's Specs full power Eruption is nothing to be scoffed at. It suffers from the problem that most other Evio walls do, as in it gets worn down easily by passive damage, but that isn't a problem with it inherently. Having a Ghost immunity doesn't hurt either, letting it play as a sort of pivot against Entrain Dragapult and Specs Lunala. I've also tried Magic Bounce, and that isn't too horrible either, just have to play it more carefully in that case. It also has actual offensive presence unlike FC Chans did last gen, which is refreshing.

Drops

Zacian B -> B-: Just not that good. The stats are all okay, the speed is great which lets it run Mold Breaker annoyance lead sets pretty well, but even the PH Octolock set has limited use these days because Fairy is just not a great attacking type weirdly enough.

Rhyperior D -> UR: What is this thing even doing? It never occured to me to even run this mon.

Silvally-Grass d -> UR: Probably outclassed all the way by Celebi or Gorgeist-xl, I don't really see what this has going for it that they don't have besides a neutrality to Knock Off. It's easily 2hkoed by the strongest Rends and bolt Beaks in the meta like Zekrom's +1 Intrepid Sword, and that's why you would actually run it.
 
:melmetal: He seems a bit high and dry up here when he does have competition.
:zekrom: A, this mon sure is threatening with its solid bulk and typing and Bolt Beak but there are 10 million mons that can rk it and every team should carry an electric resist so it isn't as threatening as it seems.
:darmanitan-galar-zen: A+, good mon
:reshiram: A-/B+, why is it so high lol, its hampered by GDZ's popularity and while it can check some popular mons like zac-c and darm and ph zek it again suffers from a poor speed tier.
:kyurem-black: B, oh boy this mon is just not good. It's priority is solid but it doesn't really revenge stuff. Bulky mons like Melmetal just eat it and overall it is just not as threatening as its counterpart. Physical walls like Fur Coat mons are just too popular for it to be effective.
:ferrothorn: B/B-, I have never used this mon but a large reason is it just doesn't have the bulk to take on strong moves. You basically need FC to wall Fish and Beak but then you just die to Vc...
:lunala: this mon is fine at B+ actually, it 2HKOs a lot but it doesn't OHKO a lot which is... a big problem when you have 2 massive weaknesses, and both types have common utility moves.
:mewtwo: this mon is actually fire Sheer Force seemingly has 0 checks? Could be A- but I think I will use it before nomming it
:solgaleo: B/B-, No this mon is bad, doesn't have enough bulk to check stuff and Mewtwo and friends run like Fire+Ground coverage so you basically do nothing. Offensive sets are inferior to Zac or NDM and DIB got smashed.
:toxapex: B, lacking bulk is a huge deterrence because it requires an ability to check mons. Levi FC VA IS are all very necessary abilities and you cannot run them all at once which is very problematic. Not the worse though, probably better than Ferro.
:zacian: This mon is honestly fine, it's one of the better checks to Zama and it is a solid abuser of the broken Octolock to break some teams. Fairy isn't great offensively but its very solid against offensive mons.
:aegislash: B-, no bulk no good resists why are you not using Melm this doesn't wall Zama they run Knock and EQ and Bolt Beak so you just DIE.
:barraskewda: B+, matchup fish is good, checks are very rare and speed tier is great.
:darmanitan-zen: This mon seems ok to be at B, has the Toxapex Syndrome (wants every ability) but again does its job well with the proper ability.
:golisopod: B+, yeah people said this already but very nice typing.
:munchlax: UR??? I'm pretty confident that this is outclassed by Leftovers/Shell Imposter as even with Evio it lacks the bulk to switch in to mons and people are still improofing everything. Leftovers and Shell both scout sets much better since the former can mitigate chip damage and have nice longevity while latter is Shell which we all know is good. Use Snorlax if you want to improof Lunala or smth.
:pikachu: B- at best, every mon is so offensive this gen so Pikachu is straight up OHKOed by any move. Popularity of Zekrom and Zeraora and Misc PH mons makes it life very difficult too.
:gyarados: B, its good defensively and its solid offensively so it is kinda versatile in a way? Other's explained this so yeah.
:dragapult: B/B+, Octo Taunt Entrain, how do you beat this without immensely fat bouncer.
:excadrill: B-, anti-meta mon, strong EQs is great when there are minimal resists.
:seismitoad: B? It isn't that great of a mon but its typing is phenomenal and you can't deny how popular it is. Timid Toad is legendary btw. It does have the awkward problem of having 3 other family members being very similar (gastro quag and whis) but I think it is the best overall.
:snorlax: I'm not sure what the hype on this is, sure you are annoying and stuff but you have poor physical bulk and your typing doesn't check a lot of special mons either.
:steelix: B-, actually really nice electric immunity and can pick between abilities to check Fish or Vc, a solid alternative to Melm.
:bisharp::rhyperior::silvally-grass:UR ????? what do these mons do.
:incineroar: echoing the nom, I have used this a couple of times but basically its a defensive dark and we know what those do but it has solid offensive presence and the fire typing is very helpful for chipping Melmetal and stuff. It also allows it to act as a Fire and soft check stuff like Zacian-C while tanking Moonblasts easily. Oh with Scales it can check Kyu-W too so thats cool.
:type null: This should stay here, Ice Scales Null is an overly hyped set that is basically like the FC Chansey of last gen, something that can "check" a bunch of stuff (when it takes like 40+ from everything strong) while being immensely passive and easy to take advantage of.
:lapras-gmax: D. One of the best Kyurem-W switch-ins in the game and checks Kyu-B as well. VA is probably the only set so it can check stuff like Zekrom and soft check Zeraora. Very annoying to switch-in as well with Scald and Beam/Freeze-Dry.
 

GL Volkner

[12:15:34] @Thinkerino: You're an animal
is a Tiering Contributor
personally i don't think any pokemon is outstanding enough to be in s rank. you could make a push for zacc or darmgz but idk about those either. it's not like every meta 100% needs an s rank too, i'd drop melm to a+.

worth considering ranking imposter over wobb. with chansey's removal it's a lot more viable to run different imposter pokemon that improof other sets on your team by value of typing (imposter wailord to improof some gdarmz, etc)
 
Gonna post some thoughts as well.
Melmetal is def a top mon but not sure it deserves its own tier.
Zacian crown has lost some of its power with the restrictions and dib gone should prob be in the same tier with zeraora and give its place to darm gz.
Kyu-b should go to B tier to fit his name better.
Lunala and draga should be a bit higher up,normal zacian should drop a bit as well.
Some mons at C and D also feel underapreciated like snorlax toad rhydon type null like other mentioned,maybe even drill and umbreon.

Overall nice to have one of this for gen 8,maybe some sample teams will follow
 
| RISES
:Zacian-Crowned: > S This fits so easily onto so many teams and just does it all every single game. Checks every offensive threat, really hard to switch into consistently bc it has so many good coverage options + it can run all kinds of utility moves like hazards, Taunt, Volt Switch, Strength Sap, whatever. The amount of general utility Zac-C provides while also having extremely limited offensive and defensive counterplay is really wild, imo this is the best mon in the tier currently.
:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: > A+ funny snowman click v-create
:Eternatus: > A+ Defensive sets are excellent and Sheer Force is one of the hardest mons to deal with in the whole tier bc most of the stuff that actually threatens etern gets outsped and it has a billion good coverage options. Sometimes it just clicks Quiver Dance and you lose the game, easily one of the strongest/most versatile threats in the meta.
:Zamazenta-Crowned: > A+ Another crazy versatile mon. Can run most of the same sets as Melmetal, trading some physical bulk and slow pivots for way more offensive presence and much better special bulk, which is definitely a tradeoff worth making for a lot of teams. Ice Scales is one of the only good Kyu-W switchins in the tier which is a really relevant niche. Also has some cool and very underexplored offensive sets, I've really been liking Scarf Intrepid Sword lately.
:Kyurem-White: > A One of the hardest mons to switch into in the whole tier, there's basically nothing decent that avoids the 2HKO from Specs Boomburst. Benefits a lot from people running stuff like Seismitoad and Steelix bc they have to click Recover heaps and you can just go hard into Kyu-W and press the boomburst button. Also checks a ton of Zek/Zera/fish sets
:Lunala: > A- So hard to fit ghost resists because they all suck and the few that we do have absolutely cop it from Psystrike/Secret Sword. Also surprisingly fat and outspeeding the Unova Dragons is a fat W
:Dragapult: > B+ Purely on the strength of the completely bullshit Octolock + Taunt set

| DROPS
:Zacian: > B-/C Just doesn't really do anything. Lack of good STAB options makes offensive sets really underwhelming (and usually outclassed by Zac-C) and its bulk/resists are not good enough for defensive sets to be worth running. It looks OK on paper but in practice Zacian doesn't really have any good sets except for the kinda gimmicky PH Octolock stuff, and it cannot ever get past Melmetal.
:Kyurem-Black: > B- The only sets Kyu-B runs that aren't outclassed by DGZ are Refrigerate sets, and those aren't particularly good bc priority kinda sucks when stuff can just Dynamax and almost all the fast mons are either bulky or resist Ice. Has to run wack stuff to beat Melmetal.
:Solgaleo: > B-/C Pretty thoroughly outclassed by Zac-C, Melm, and Zama-C in most of its roles. Same issue that the previous mons have of just having super limited options against Melm. Almost never play against this mon and have not felt any desire to put it on a team in a long while.
:Pikachu: > D garbage

I think this VR really overrates a bunch niche defensive mons, most of these are some combination of inconsistent, easy to wear down, overly passive, forced to run bad abilities, and hard to fit onto teams. In general these mons just don't quite have the natural bulk to do what you want them to and just end up being really inflexible and kinda mediocre as a result.

:Ferrothorn: > C
:Toxapex: > B-
:Aegislash: > C
:Corviknight: > D
:Doublade: > D
:Hippowdon: > UR
:Mandibuzz: > D/UR
:Umbreon: > D
:Celebi: > UR
:Rhyperior: > UR
:SIlvally-Grass: > UR

Also

:Chandelure: > UR just run reshiram
 

xavgb

:xavgb:
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
:reshiram: A-/B+, why is it so high lol, its hampered by GDZ's popularity and while it can check some popular mons like zac-c and darm and ph zek it again suffers from a poor speed tier.
Not gonna touch on the rest of the noms as I mostly agree but I just wanted to bring this up due to how much I disagree with it. Reshiram is in no way hampered by DGZ's popularity; in fact it benefits from exactly this. The most common Fire checks in the meta are built for DGZ - this leads to them being physical walls such as Primsea Melm that are easy enough for Resh to bypass.

Resh and DGZ have very different strengths in general and I don't think it would be fair to say that teams running Resh should replace it with DGZ at all. DGZ is obviously a hit and run mon, and it does this very well due to that stupid powerful V-create with barely any proper resists in the tier. It does take some support to pivot in but that's easy enough to come by in BH. Reshiram takes a different approach to breaking, where instead of clicking V-create when it gets the chance to take something out it clicks either QD or Plume. This is actually very effective due to Resh's large amount of positive matchups in the upper ranks, buying it time to sit in front of opponents and prevent them from actually making any progress. What normally happens instead when playing against Resh is that some fat mon is forced to come in against it, and it will almost always be passive to either Resh itself or literally everything else, while nearly anything fat also risks stupid dumb Plume burn that will hamper it for the rest of the game. The closest example I can offer for this kind of idea is Gen 7 Xerneas, which gradually rose though the ranks as people realised that it was capable of both gatekeeping offensive mons and punishing defensive mons, and it proved to be able to win a lot of games long-term at little cost.

DGZ should be in A+ imo, but I don't think S is really fitting due to a few limitations. As I said earlier, DGZ teams require some solid means of getting it in, and while the support is available, it doesn't necessarily always work due to other controlling factors in the metagame. Mons like Zac-C, Resh, and even Zama are all capable of dominating the game state or in the case of the PH users at least spending a ton of time on the field in the face of pivots. On top of this DGZ is super weak to rocks, so any strategy that involves getting them up will hamper Darm's effectiveness. The last thing I'd point out is that Darm is pretty frail and at least temporarily choiced (thanks Dynamax), which means it's still somewhat prediction reliant, especially in situations against opposing Dynamax. This means that even in a game where DGZ has a strong matchup on paper, it doesn't immediately become the wincon, and if it is prevented from doing its funny bouncy fire boi thing the teams around it can struggle to make ground. All of the scenarios I listed above are better handled by mons with more longevity, which is just another reason why Resh shouldn't drop.

I was gonna say here I might edit in some noms of my own but MAMP just posted as well so I really don't have much to say that isn't already being discussed so yeah lol cya.
 
Last edited:
Nice to see all this discussion on the VR and get an idea of everyone's thoughts. I definitely didn't think we'd get this nailed down perfectly on the first try, especially since the meta is still changing a lot and people are still finding new viable sets and strategies. I'm gonna go through these and give some of my thoughts on the general rises/drops that are mentioned above.

Thoughts on rises:
:darmanitan-galar-zen: Darm-GZ is very threatening and has a lot of impact on building, but people seem to forget it is 4x weak to Stealth Rock, has frail defensive stats, and is outsped by some very prominent offensive threats. I think A is fine for it right now.
:lunala: Lunala's Specs Adapt set is really good, but still being walled by things like Ice Scales Umbreon and certain Mandibuzz sets along with potentially being checked by Snorlax and Tyranitar should keep this from rising. Not to mention its crippling 4x weaknesses lack of longevity due to being effected by all kinds of hazards.
:excadrill: Excadrill's anti-meta STABs are still really good, even though it misses DIB. While it is pretty frail and has a weird speed tier, Excadrill is a threatening choice user and setup sweeper, so I think B- sounds better for it.
:seismitoad: Toad is really good right now (especially once people pick up on using Earth Power with it) and definitely think it should be higher than C.
:type-null: I don't think Type: Null is as passive as FC Chansey, but I'm not buying the hype for it either. Depending on Eviolite and abilities to check threats make this mon a lot easier to play around and eventually break past.
:dragapult: Octolock + Taunt sets are making the rounds and are certainly better than setup Normalize variants, but all its sets suffer the same vulnerabilities like Knock Off, burns/para/poison, Prankster Encore, etc and I don't think it should rise. Especially not based on one move that is pretty broken.
:barraskewda: The fish and its fish move are really strong, even more so under rain, but being so frail and not quite as fast or strong as it wants to be make me think that B is a good enough place for it.
:golisopod: Goli is good, but it wants to run too many sets at once. Not sure how else to put it, but I think its fine where it is right now.
:gyarados: I can get behind Gyarados rising to B. I've used it some lately and Fishious Rend is crazy and setting hazards on switches and/or kinda self-improofing with Will-O-Wisp is really nice for it.
:snorlax: Not many people talked about Snorlax (and Snorlax for A rank is a little much) but I'm a big fan of it. Prankster, Poison Heal, and Ice Scales are all good on it as well as running Imposter to help improof certain mons. B- or a little higher seems more appropriate for it.

Thoughts on drops:
:zacian: I've never been impressed by Zacian this gen and am even less impressed by the fact that its best sets rely on Ocotolock and still have trouble getting rid of Steels. I also think this should drop.
:kyurem-black: I agree that Kyu-B was a little too high and should probably drop to B rank, but I think people are still sleeping on its potential. Refrigerate is the go-to thanks to Extreme Speed and the Rapid Spin buff, but sharing 170 Attack with Zacian-C is not a small thing (and it has better bulk than DGZ).
:aegislash: Aegislash is hurting post Shedinja ban. He's still decent if you really need a Ghost-type, Flash Fire, or Prankster mon, but I'm ok with it dropping.
:darmanitan-zen: Darm-Zen is underutilized so far this gen but has the potential to be a nice wall with a couple options for abilities. I think it should stay in B.
:solgaleo: I agree that Solgaleo is too high. With DIB gone, it's back to playing defense and it's not the best mon for the job in the current meta.
:toxapex: I think Pex is a good mon, and while Eternatus has better bulk, Toxapex's Water-typing is really handy for resisting Ice and Steel attacks. It can be worn down a little too easily, but I don't think it needs to drop.
:melmetal: Melmetal is really good and almost needs to be on every team, but I can get behind dropping it to A+ and removing the S rank for now.

The D rank is a little too crowded right now, and I agree that some of these need to go, mainly Rhyperior, and probably Silvally-Grass. I'm not sure about the noms of Incineroar and Lapras to D rank since I haven't used them, but they seem to fit right in with the crowd in D rank.
 
I would argue the best kyub set is Poison Heal utility. I have ran Dragon Darts / Spikes / Will-o-Wisp / Shift Gear, and improofed it with a MB Steel-type. Dragon Darts is its strongest stab move and hits a bunch of targets for ohkos including Etern, Zek and Resh with no boost and an adamant nature. It's a lot better than the refrigerate blue flare set for sure, and the bulk and longevity is insane. It also gets free spikes on a lot of the meta because most Steels aren't running Bounce, and the ones that do are threatened out by every good special attacker in the meta.
 
1582015237487.png

I feel Darmanitan-Zen Mode (Unova) is right for being just beneath Toxapex, as it’s resistance to Psychic, Burn immunity, and neutrality to Bolt Beak allow it fill a void that Toxapex lacks. It’s 140 SpA 1HKOs Excadrill via Blue Flare, while Scald Toxapex is always a 3HKO Vs Excadrill (who carries the stronger than Earthquake move in Bolt Beak).
Darm Vs CB Intrepid Sword Excadrill:

252 SpA Darmanitan-Zen Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Excadrill: 462-546 (108.9 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Zen: 288-342 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (No hazard damage due to Heavy-Duty Boots; Spikes doesn’t make it a 1HKO either way).

CB Intrepid Sword Excadrill Vs Toxapex

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Toxapex: 250-296 (82.2 - 97.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes OR Stealth Rock
Further, Darmanitan-Zen can 1HKO Zacian-Crowned with minor chip damage, and doesn’t give it chances to set-up and sweep.
252 SpA Darmanitan-Zen Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 320-380 (82.4 - 97.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Zen: 140-166 (33.8 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
1582017401191.png

Still, Toxapex is not weak to Moongeist Beam, nor Fishous Rend, and can use more items like Black Sludge and Rocky Helmet, while Darmanitan-Zen Mode relies on Heavy-Duty Boots to stay effective, although Leftovers can be used well when you have Defog support.

Further, Toxapex can absorb Toxic Spikes and is immune to the Poison status (I.e. if Darmanitan-Z uses Spectral Thief while the foe uses Baneful Bunker). Still, thanks to Heavy-Duty Boots, Darmanitan-Zen Mode doesn’t fear Toxic Spikes, either.

Their unique, yet comparable typing enables them both to resist Fighting, Fairy, Steel, Fire, and Ice, and are able to use their mixed bulk to survive resisted hits from both sides of the spectrum.

Thus, I agree with the Council in that they should stay in B+, and B, respectively, since their key resistances allow them to use Fur Coat, rather than Flash Fire, so they can better handle Darmanitan-Glarian-Zen Mode and Zacian-Crowned. Still, I understand if the key 1HKOs for Excadrill, and Zacian-Crowned make Darmanitan-Zen Mode more on par to B+, especially since Darmanitan-Zen Mode can also cleanly 1HKO Melmetal, and Corviknight, while Aegislash, and Dusk-Mane/Solgaleo are 1HKOed with minor chip damage.
——————
1582020968860.pngSeismitoad with Fur Coat seems limited:

252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 211-249 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Plus, if you get Flinched, it’s not like you can even hit back with a STAB attack.

While it isn’t weak to Bolt Beak, or V-Create its neutrality doesn’t help it where it counts.

Next, when it comes to Zacian-Crowned, it isn't limited by a Choice Lock, so it can simply use Spore and/or Shell Smash on the switch in, effectively negating Fur Coat at +2 Atk.

Attackers with stronger Atk, like Choice Band Dusk-Mane (it can use Photon Geyser to replace Mold Breaker with Intrepid Sword), do even more to Seismitoad, as Fur Coat is ignored. Resistances are the only way, so I do think Seismitoad is perhaps too highly regarded

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 402-474 (97.1 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

If they send in a Steel-type to resist its STAB, it could Dynamax out of Choice lock and use Max-Flare, Max-Knuckle, etc. and get stronger from the effects the following turn.

I think Seismitoad is good if the foe isn’t using Mold Breaker/Moldy Moves, and that means even without STAB:

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 247-291 (59.6 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I could see it on Darmanitan-Galar-Zen for handling Fur Coat/Unaware Toxapex, Eternatus, etc. and for Psychic Terrain under Dynamax. Power Whip seems much less a necessity here if Seismitoad switches into a Photon Geyser and can be 2HKOed.

I do think it is better than C, but I don’t think it is as good as people believe it is. B- seems fair, since it lacks the resistances for the other coverage moves it will face beyond Steel, Fire and Electric, while also not able to really use its SpD to handle some of the mixed attackers.
 
Last edited:
ok gamers

:melmetal: down to a+. melmetal's offensive sets are at least 2 bans away from being actually good, so most of the time he just kinda sits there taking 40+ from things because no one uses guys that are walled by melmetal. almost a good hazard setter but its pretty mediocre at that too.
:zekrom: down to a: broken on paper, good in practice. feels similar to last gen with it technically having no counters but struggling to realistically find openings. prank wisp beats it, toad beats it, melmetal kinda beats it too.
:eternatus: up to a+ or even s: all my good teams have eternatus. it's such a good mon both offensively and defensively and ive taken advantage of this a lot with sets like fc dragon fang, sf recover, and others, but other sets like final gambit and loser's prank set are also very solid. best spike setter in the meta too. dont use the moldy hazard spam set tho he sucks
:wobbuffet: down to a-: he sucks and doesnt really accomplish things. maybe at best you can force them to dynamax? still a pretty huge teamslot to commit to. cant say for sure cause i havent used him
:kyurem-black: down to b+ or b: darmz and zac both resist espeed and you get walled by melmetal unless you run blue flare, which is cringe. meanwhile kyuw is just kinda hanging out with no switchins. why are you using this again?
:ferrothorn: :solgaleo: down to b or b-: when do you use these over melmetal? like actually what are they supposed to do? calling ferro a "beak/rend resist" is very generous
:toxapex: down to b: volt absorb is ok but hes just so disgustingly passive and weak to eq. calling this the best water is a really crazy stretch in my opinion.
:pikachu: down to d: you need to win two speed ties to accomplish anything. don't use this.
:excadrill: up to b-: he doesn't really have any counters
:seismitoad: up to b- or b: why is he so low? lots of solid sets, shift gear/spikes/wisp/eq ph is really good, even fc can avoid being passive thru ep/spectral with an extra filler slot for poison fang and stuff.
:tyranitar: up to b-: ph ttar is very good, def requires some support but feels almost unkillable at times. even strong fighting moves just get negated by wisp and u just sweep later on.
:umbreon: up to b-: very easy mon to slap on, prank wisp goggles is a very low maintenance pokemon thats relatively hard to exploit. its very nice to just not have to worry about broken ghosts. bounce sucker punch is also a hilarious tech
:primarina: up to c: don't see this being any higher than c but this mon can do some neat things with setup, poison heal is my personal favorite but u can also run things like volt absorb and fc. i also tried a specs pixilate set once and that was pretty decent

edit: dont unrank chandelure he never loses. also darms fine in a, choice sets are incredibly inconsistent so you have to use weird sets like lo isword and mg to actually do things
 
Redoing my nominations now that I have played this meta a bit more and Octolock got banned.
:melmetal: A+ He is super prepared for and while he is still amazing Zamazenta-C is giving it competition.
:zekrom:
A Like I said before he gets revenge killed by everything and you also aren't the unwallable breaker. Sap Utility offense sets are amazing though.
:darmanitan-galar-zen:
A+ This is the face of the meta and one of the most distorting breakers in the meta. His placement is controversial especially due to Dynamax but I believe a mon that is forcing every team to pack sturdy answers is more accurately placed in A.
:eternatus:
S The most dominant mon in my opinion. His defensive utility is unrivaled by any other mon especially when he resists all of the strong moves, making him a popular answer to the weather and surge teams that plague the ladder. Fur Coat and Prankster are both incredibly splashable. Sheer Force is ok.
:kyurem-black:
B+ Funny placement he does nothing for most games. I tried defensive utility sets to potentially check Darm but Mold just makes it die.
:zamazenta-crowned:
Minimum A Its like Melmetal except you don't immediately lose to Kyurem-W. STAB Body Press is excellent for offensive presence. Cotton Guard sets aren't even bad so thats cool.
:zeraora:
B+ A little high when Eternatus is flooding the defensive cores and everyone is paranoid about Electric resists. Outspeeding almost everything and OHKOing them is very good utility though.
:ferrothorn:
B- He dies to everything. I have tried Magic Bounce to improof utility offensive mons and that's pretty much his use.
:mewtwo:
A- A very very good breaker in the meta. One of the few mons that can reliably OHKO Eternatus without doing weird stuff and very difficult to check.
:solgaleo:
B- I have never used this because I just want to use Zama-C instead
:toxapex:
B- Ferrothorn but dies to Bolt Beak and EQ.
:barraskewda:
B+ Matchup fish is on the most consistent cheese team in the meta rn. Its pretty good by itself as well and should definitely not be in B.
:munchlax:
UR He does nothing except getting outclassed. You still get 2HKOed by everything you want to switch in on so just use Choice Scarf or Shed Shell please.
:pikachu:
D I really don't think running a mon that dies to everything now and risks speed ties to do something is a good idea. Zekrom, Zeraora, and Poison Heal popularity just makes this trash.
:gyarados:
B Personally haven't used him but good typing and stuff definitely makes him worth using over garbage.
:doublade:
D Garbage
:excadrill:
B EQ is practically unresisted so you can just spam that and profit in Etern+Steel meta.
:seismitoad:
B- Still a nice mon if people are dedicating whole moveslots to prevent this from walling stuff.
:steelix:
B- Bolt Beak immunity is actually incredibly useful sometimes and can also improof some Volt Switching stuff. Biggest downside compared to Melmetal is not being able to cover both V-create and Rend which sucks when a lot of stuff like Zacian-C should be running Rend as coverage move (no Steel-STAB Zacian-C is underrated af).
:bisharp:
UR Garbage
:rhyperior:
UR Garbage
:silvally-grass:
UR Garbage
:lapras-gmax:
D I have used this enough and Volt Absorb is pretty solid at checking Kyurem-W and just being annoying in general. Dimrah has also used the set on ladder and I think he tried PH too.
:incineroar:
D Its a Dark that compressed Fire resistance and Fairy neutrality helps. Not much to say its certainly better than some D stuff.
:appletun-gmax: D 4x Water and Electric resist along with clutch Aromatherapy isn't bad. You need FC still to take stray V-creates and U-turns but offensive presence isn't bad either with Leaf Storm and Dynamax Cannon STABs.
:aegislash-blade: D I haven't tried this mon out but I can bet that ImmuniSlash is a good set.
:
 
Well I guess I should update my noms as well.


:Eternatus: Eternatus to S
It’s hard to think of a niche this mon doesn’t satisfy. Resistances to beak, rend, v-create, and cc all in one slot make Eternatus super easy to slap on a team as a prankster or fc/scales wall. Its Dmax cannon is super threatening to the various dragons even on defensive sets due to its speed. Sheer Force sets are still very threatening special attackers, although I feel they’re now secondary to defensive sets due to the broken moves and the increasing usage of high SpD stuff.

:Melmetal: Melmetal to A+
This probably didn’t belong in S to begin with and it definitely has serious competition with Zama-C and Eternatus as walls. Every team is prepared for Melm and it can’t do a ton in response.

:darmanitan-galar-zen: Darmanitan-Galar-Zen to A+
I’m still adamant this is an A+ mon. V-create still has very few counters, and the Magic Guard sets being experimented with remove some of its biggest downfalls in choice lock and SR weakness.

:Zamazenta-crowned: Zamazenta-C to A
A worthy rival to Melmetal that can actually take on some special attackers. Utility moves hit super hard too so that’s nice.

:zekrom: Zekrom to A
Yeah this is beginning to hold up less in practice. Walled by every ground ever which is bad, and FC Eternatus usage spiking is awful for it.

:mewtwo: Mewtwo to A-
Mostly theorymonning tbh but this has to be the biggest beneficiary of Eternatus’s rise. Really slept on in general, and basically all psychic resists are hit by fighting coverage.

:excadrill: Excadrill to B+
Still criminally underrated. Almost nothing wants to switch in, and an unexpected Shift Gear basically instantly wins.

:kyurem-black: Kyurem-B to B or lower
Why is this A- again? It’s pretty universally agreed that every meta trend ever is absolutely terrible for KyuB, and it’s very hard to find a winning team that uses it.

:snorlax: Snorlax to B
Meanwhile, why was this ever C? Super good prankster user and SpD wall that can also run scales or ph well.

:seismitoad: Seismitoad to B
Even better than before now that Eternatus is skyrocketing in usage. This has already been covered, rise it up.

:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn to B-
Why use this over Melmetal or Zama? Ice neutrality is super bad as well.

:solgaleo: Solgaleo to B-
See above but for thief/knock weakness.

:zacian: Zacian to B-/C
What does this do again? Even more shit with octo being gone.

:darmanitan-zen: Darmanitan-Zen to C
Meh. Usable but overvalued in my eyes.

:pikachu: Pikachu to D
I don’t know if I’ve ever seen this used on a good team. Too much team support/reliance on speed ties to truly be good.

:dragapult: Dragapult to D
Now that its only ever niche in Octolock is gone there’s no reason to use this

:Lapras-gmax: Lapras-Gmax to D
:incineroar: Incineroar to D
Hey they’re definitely better than some of the BS currently ranked.



Cleaning out the clutter:
:Munchlax: Munchlax to UR
:doublade: Doublade to UR
:bisharp: Bisharp to UR
:celebi: Celebi to UR
:chandelure: Chandelure to UR (sorry sl)
:gourgeist: Gourgeist to UR
:obstagoon: Obstagoon to UR
:rhyperior: Rhyperior to UR
:silvally: Silvally to UR
 
ok gamers

:melmetal: down to a+. melmetal's offensive sets are at least 2 bans away from being actually good, so most of the time he just kinda sits there taking 40+ from things because no one uses guys that are walled by melmetal. almost a good hazard setter but its pretty mediocre at that too.
:zekrom: down to a: broken on paper, good in practice. feels similar to last gen with it technically having no counters but struggling to realistically find openings. prank wisp beats it, toad beats it, melmetal kinda beats it too.
:eternatus: up to a+ or even s: all my good teams have eternatus. it's such a good mon both offensively and defensively and ive taken advantage of this a lot with sets like fc dragon fang, sf recover, and others, but other sets like final gambit and loser's prank set are also very solid. best spike setter in the meta too. dont use the moldy hazard spam set tho he sucks
:wobbuffet: down to a-: he sucks and doesnt really accomplish things. maybe at best you can force them to dynamax? still a pretty huge teamslot to commit to. cant say for sure cause i havent used him
:kyurem-black: down to b+ or b: darmz and zac both resist espeed and you get walled by melmetal unless you run blue flare, which is cringe. meanwhile kyuw is just kinda hanging out with no switchins. why are you using this again?
:ferrothorn: :solgaleo: down to b or b-: when do you use these over melmetal? like actually what are they supposed to do? calling ferro a "beak/rend resist" is very generous
:toxapex: down to b: volt absorb is ok but hes just so disgustingly passive and weak to eq. calling this the best water is a really crazy stretch in my opinion.
:pikachu: down to d: you need to win two speed ties to accomplish anything. don't use this.
:excadrill: up to b-: he doesn't really have any counters
:seismitoad: up to b- or b: why is he so low? lots of solid sets, shift gear/spikes/wisp/eq ph is really good, even fc can avoid being passive thru ep/spectral with an extra filler slot for poison fang and stuff.
:tyranitar: up to b-: ph ttar is very good, def requires some support but feels almost unkillable at times. even strong fighting moves just get negated by wisp and u just sweep later on.
:umbreon: up to b-: very easy mon to slap on, prank wisp goggles is a very low maintenance pokemon thats relatively hard to exploit. its very nice to just not have to worry about broken ghosts. bounce sucker punch is also a hilarious tech
:primarina: up to c: don't see this being any higher than c but this mon can do some neat things with setup, poison heal is my personal favorite but u can also run things like volt absorb and fc. i also tried a specs pixilate set once and that was pretty decent

edit: dont unrank chandelure he never loses. also darms fine in a, choice sets are incredibly inconsistent so you have to use weird sets like lo isword and mg to actually do things
I disagree about Ferrothorn. It isn’t weak to Ground, and can afford to go Primordial Sea which makes it’s resistance to Fishous Rend all the more valuable, while Melmetal struggles.

Solgaleo is faster, has a neutrality to a Fighting, and, like Ferrothorn, has workable SpD bulk, so it isn’t caught off guard by Mix Attackers as easily.

Overall, while I would rank Ferrothorn higher than Solgaleo, due to Immunity to Spore/Magic Bounce Leech Seed, I feel B is fair for Solgaleo. B- is an insult. Solgaleo can afford to go Assault Vest.

Melmetal is the shiny new toy we get to play with, but there really isn’t anything bad about these guys. Sure Ferrothorn really fears V-Create, and Blue Flare, but those moves often hit even nuetrally pretty hard, so I view Primordial Sea as a bonus, not a limitation, especially if you pack a Water type that couldn’t use STAB bc a Desolate Land Darm-G-Z had switched in, and packs Bolt Beak. Ferrothorn works with syngergy, while Melmetal is more generally useful. Still, only a single weakness to Fighting (under Primordial Sea), anti-Spore, and good mixed bulk really lend a helpful hand to its viability. It should drop, but just not as low as B-. B seems fair.
 
Last edited:
:wobbuffet: down to a-: he sucks and doesnt really accomplish things. maybe at best you can force them to dynamax? still a pretty huge teamslot to commit to. cant say for sure cause i havent used him
I think the scouting utility provided as well as being either a good revenge killer or a nightmare for defensive mons is still pretty valuable in the meta.
:excadrill: Excadrill to B+
Still criminally underrated. Almost nothing wants to switch in, and an unexpected Shift Gear basically instantly wins.
B+ is way to high for something with garbage speed tier. You have many offensive mons capable of revenge-killing it and that heavily limits its viability. SG Multi Attack lacks immediate breaking power.
:zacian: Zacian to B-/C
What does this do again? Even more shit with octo being gone.
Disagree. Zacian is pretty amazing as a Fighting-resist and a Dragon-immune. Sure it doesn't have offensive sets anymore but PH utility with Spirit Break and Glare is notorious to deal with when lots of defensive Steels in the meta can't risk paras to check the strong breakers. Could argue that Etern is a better Fighting-resist but this lacks Ground weakness and also checks opposing defensive Etern and soft checks PH Resh and friends.
:darmanitan-zen: Darmanitan-Zen to C
Meh. Usable but overvalued in my eyes.
I've actually used this a little and its pretty cool. Best defensive Psychic in the tier pretty much. Fire- and Fighting- resist combined together is invaluable and Magic Bounce is a solid set. Lava Plume hits very hard btw.
I disagree about Ferrothorn. It isn’t weak to Ground, and can afford to go Primordial Sea which makes it’s resistance to Fishous Rend all the more valuable, while Melmetal struggles.
252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 178-210 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (No boosting ability btw)
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 151-178 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Simply you just lack the bulk to tank these hits so you can't really afford Primordial Sea.
Ground neutrality is pretty negligible as well.
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 119-141 (33.8 - 40%) -- 31.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This forces a recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 165-195 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Not even Intrepid Sword
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 170-201 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (BTW Icicle Crash 2HKOs with minimum chip even without Intrepid Sword
Solgaleo is faster, has a neutrality to a Fighting, and, like Ferrothorn, has workable SpD bulk, so it isn’t caught off guard by Mix Attackers as easily.
Again neutrality to Fighting isn't cutting it.
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solgaleo: 303-357 (63.3 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also in terms of special bulk he didn't mention it but I would pretty much want to use Zama-C over this. The typing is only useful against Focus Blast and Psychic moves, which is kinda pointless because the only mon that is relevant that runs those moves (Mewtwo, others have SE STABs) runs Blue Flare and/or Earth Power to cook you.
Overall, while I would rank Ferrothorn higher than Solgaleo, due to Immunity to Spore/Magic Bounce Leech Seed, I feel B is fair for Solgaleo. B- is an insult. Solgaleo can afford to go Assault Vest.
Spore immunity is cool but Melmetal can basically run Safety Goggles and still be bulkier than your Leftovers. Magic Bounce Leech Seed immunity really isn't a plus because running Leech on Ferrothorn is a waste of a moveslot. I can never see why you would want to run AV on Solgaleo when Ice Scales exists.
Melmetal is the shiny new toy we get to play with, but there really isn’t anything bad about these guys. Sure Ferrothorn really fears V-Create, and Blue Flare, but those moves often hit even nuetrally pretty hard, so I view Primordial Sea as a bonus, not a limitation, especially if you pack a Water type that couldn’t use STAB bc a Desolate Land Darm-G-Z had switched in, and packs Bolt Beak. Ferrothorn works with syngergy, while Melmetal is more generally useful. Still, only a single weakness to Fighting (under Primordial Sea), anti-Spore, and good mixed bulk really lend a helpful hand to its viability. It should drop, but just not as low as B-. B seems fair.
Their bulk is just not cutting it in the meta and basically Steel-types have to always compete with Melmetal and Zamazenta-C for defensive utility. The fire problem is that these Steels can afford to run Fur Coat and still take a V-create if needed while Ferro mandates Fire immunity to survive these common moves. The Water moves was shown that Ferrothorn can't take boosted Rends. Ferro + Water loses to a whole bunch of stuff because Ferrothorn can't take strong hits like boosted STAB Beaks. The single weakness is again unimportant when it dies to all these neutral stuff anyways (and resists sometimes).
 
Balanced Hackmons Speed Tiers

Very Speedy:


SpeedPokemonBase SpeedNatureEVsIVsBoosts
842:Dragapult:Dragapult142Positive25231+2
750:Zamazenta:Zamazenta138Neutral25231+2
710:Zamazenta-Crowned:Zamazenta-Crowned128Neutral25231+2
634:Kyurem-White:Kyurem-White95Positive25231+2
578:Kyurem-White:Kyurem-White95Neutral25231+2
558:Reshiram:Reshiram90Neutral25231+2
558:Zekrom:Zekrom90Neutral25231+2
550:Excadrill:Excadrill88Neutral25231+2
522:Gyarados:Gyarados81Neutral25231+2
518:Chandelure:Chandelure80Neutral25231+2
506:Necrozma Dawn Wings:Necrozma Dawn Wings77Neutral25231+2
506:Necrozma Dusk Mane:Necrozma Dusk Mane77Neutral25231+2
478:Bisharp:Bisharp70Neutral25231+2
475:Kyurem-White:Kyurem-White95Positive25231+1
442:Tyranitar:Tyranitar61Neutral25231+2
439:Lunala:Lunala97Neutral25231+1


Quite Speedy:


SpeedPokemonBase SpeedNatureEVsIVsBoosts
434:Zacian-Crowned:Zacian-Crowned148Positive252310
433:Kyurem-White:Kyurem-White95Neutral25231+1
423:Zeraora:Zeraora143Positive252310
421:Dragapult:Dragapult142Positive252310
418:Reshiram:Reshiram90Neutral25231+1
418:Zekrom:Zekrom90Neutral25231+1
412:Excadrill:Excadrill88Neutral25231+1
412:Zacian:Zacian138Positive252310
412:Zamazenta:Zamazenta138Positive252310
408:Barraskewda:Barraskewda136Positive252310
405:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen135Positive252310
395:Zacian-Crowned:Zacian-Crowned148Neutral252310
394:Eternatus:Eternatus130Positive252310
394:Mewtwo:Mewtwo130Positive252310
390:Zamazenta-Crowned:Zamazenta-Crowned128Positive252310
385:Zeraora:Zeraora143Neutral252310
383:Dragapult:Dragapult142Neutral252310
383:Marshadow:Marshadow125Positive252310
378:Golisopod:Golisopod45Neutral25231+2
375:Zacian:Zacian138Neutral252310
375:Zamazenta:Zamazenta138Neutral252310
371:Barraskewda:Barraskewda136Neutral252310
369:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen135Neutral252310


Moderate Speediness:


SpeedPokemonBase SpeedNatureEVsIVsBoosts
359:Eternatus:Eternatus130Neutral252310
359:Mewtwo:Mewtwo130Neutral252310
355:Zamazenta-Crowned:Zamazenta-Crowned128Neutral252310
349:Marshadow:Marshadow125Neutral252310
317:Kyurem-Black:Kyurem-Black95Positive252310
317:Kyurem-White:Kyurem-White95Positive252310
306:Reshiram:Reshiram90Positive252310
306:Zekrom:Zekrom90Positive252310
302:Excadrill:Excadrill88Positive252310
299:Celebi:Celebi100Neutral252310
293:Lunala:Lunala97Neutral252310
293:Solgaleo:Solgaleo97Neutral252310
289:Kyurem-Black:Kyurem-Black95Neutral252310
289:Kyurem-White:Kyurem-White95Neutral252310
289:Obstagoon:Obstagoon95Neutral252310
289:Silvally:Silvally95Neutral252310
279:Pikachu:Pikachu90Neutral252310
279:Reshiram:Reshiram90Neutral252310
279:Zekrom:Zekrom90Neutral252310
275:Excadrill:Excadrill88Neutral252310
270:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen135Positive25231-1
261:Gyarados:Gyarados81Neutral252310


Slow:


SpeedPokemonBase SpeedNatureEVsIVsBoosts
259:Chandelure:Chandelure80Neutral252310
259:Mandibuzz:Mandibuzz80Neutral252310
253:Necrozma Dawn Wings:Necrozma Dawn Wings77Neutral252310
253:Necrozma Dusk Mane:Necrozma Dusk Mane77Neutral252310
247:Seismitoad:Seismitoad74Neutral252310
246:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen135Neutral25231-1
239:Bisharp:Bisharp70Neutral252310
233:Corviknight:Corviknight67Neutral252310
229:Centiskorch:Centiskorch65Neutral252310
229:Umbreon:Umbreon65Neutral252310
221:Tyranitar:Tyranitar61Neutral252310
219:Aegislash:Aegislash60Neutral252310
219:Jellicent:Jellicent60Neutral252310
219:Primarina:Primarina60Neutral252310
217:Type Null:Type: Null59Neutral252310
209:Darmanitan-Zen:Darmanitan-Zen55Neutral252310
207:Gourgeist-Super:Gourgeist-Super54Neutral252310
204:Reshiram:Reshiram90Positive25231-1
193:Hippowdon:Hippowdon47Neutral252310
189:Golisopod:Golisopod45Neutral252310
186:Reshiram:Reshiram90Neutral25231-1
179:Rhydon:Rhydon40Neutral252310
179:Rhyperior:Rhyperior40Neutral252310
169:Doublade:Doublade35Neutral252310
169:Toxapex:Toxapex35Neutral252310
167:Melmetal:Melmetal34Neutral252310
165:Wobbuffet:Wobbuffet33Neutral252310
159:Runerigus:Runerigus30Neutral252310
159:Snorlax:Snorlax30Neutral252310
159:Steelix:Steelix30Neutral252310
149:Dusclops:Dusclops25Neutral252310
139:Escavalier:Escavalier20Neutral252310
139:Ferrothorn:Ferrothorn20Neutral252310
139:Torkoal:Torkoal20Neutral252310


Very Slow:


SpeedPokemonBase SpeedNatureEVsIVsBoosts
125:Corviknight:Corviknight67Negative000
121:Centiskorch:Centiskorch65Negative000
112:Aegislash:Aegislash60Negative000
112:Jellicent:Jellicent60Negative000
109:Munchlax:Munchlax5Neutral252310
103:Darmanitan-Zen:Darmanitan-Zen55Negative000
101:Gourgeist-Super:Gourgeist-Super54Negative000
89:Hippowdon:Hippowdon47Negative000
85:Golisopod:Golisopod45Negative000
67:Doublade:Doublade35Negative000
67:Toxapex:Toxapex35Negative000
65:Melmetal:Melmetal34Negative000
58:Runerigus:Runerigus30Negative000
58:Snorlax:Snorlax30Negative000
49:Dusclops:Dusclops25Negative000
40:Escavalier:Escavalier20Negative000
40:Ferrothorn:Ferrothorn20Negative000
40:Torkoal:Torkoal20Negative000
13:Munchlax:Munchlax5Negative000
Speed tiers are up! Feel free to give feedback on anything I missed either here or (preferably) on discord/my wall/pms.

(positive nature +1 for zek, resh and exca have been pointed out already, this is hard guys don't judge)
 
I think the scouting utility provided as well as being either a good revenge killer or a nightmare for defensive mons is still pretty valuable in the meta.

B+ is way to high for something with garbage speed tier. You have many offensive mons capable of revenge-killing it and that heavily limits its viability. SG Multi Attack lacks immediate breaking power.

Disagree. Zacian is pretty amazing as a Fighting-resist and a Dragon-immune. Sure it doesn't have offensive sets anymore but PH utility with Spirit Break and Glare is notorious to deal with when lots of defensive Steels in the meta can't risk paras to check the strong breakers. Could argue that Etern is a better Fighting-resist but this lacks Ground weakness and also checks opposing defensive Etern and soft checks PH Resh and friends.

I've actually used this a little and its pretty cool. Best defensive Psychic in the tier pretty much. Fire- and Fighting- resist combined together is invaluable and Magic Bounce is a solid set. Lava Plume hits very hard btw.

252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 178-210 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (No boosting ability btw)
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 151-178 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Simply you just lack the bulk to tank these hits so you can't really afford Primordial Sea.
Ground neutrality is pretty negligible as well.
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 119-141 (33.8 - 40%) -- 31.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This forces a recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 165-195 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Not even Intrepid Sword
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 170-201 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (BTW Icicle Crash 2HKOs with minimum chip even without Intrepid Sword

Again neutrality to Fighting isn't cutting it.
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solgaleo: 303-357 (63.3 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also in terms of special bulk he didn't mention it but I would pretty much want to use Zama-C over this. The typing is only useful against Focus Blast and Psychic moves, which is kinda pointless because the only mon that is relevant that runs those moves (Mewtwo, others have SE STABs) runs Blue Flare and/or Earth Power to cook you.

Spore immunity is cool but Melmetal can basically run Safety Goggles and still be bulkier than your Leftovers. Magic Bounce Leech Seed immunity really isn't a plus because running Leech on Ferrothorn is a waste of a moveslot. I can never see why you would want to run AV on Solgaleo when Ice Scales exists.

Their bulk is just not cutting it in the meta and basically Steel-types have to always compete with Melmetal and Zamazenta-C for defensive utility. The fire problem is that these Steels can afford to run Fur Coat and still take a V-create if needed while Ferro mandates Fire immunity to survive these common moves. The Water moves was shown that Ferrothorn can't take boosted Rends. Ferro + Water loses to a whole bunch of stuff because Ferrothorn can't take strong hits like boosted STAB Beaks. The single weakness is again unimportant when it dies to all these neutral stuff anyways (and resists sometimes).
Ice Scales was useless Vs Moongeist, so that’s why I liked Assault Vest, and so it doesn’t need a 4th moveslot for Recover and can use utility moves like U-Turn, Knock Off, Rapid Spin, etc. in addition to STAB Photon Geyser (for Eternatus, Toxapex, who can pack Fur Coat).

252 Atk Solgaleo Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus: 278-330 (57.4 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Eternatus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo: 187-221 (39.1 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I agree on everything else you said, however.

Go Darm-Z!
 

xavgb

:xavgb:
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I'll give thoughts on stuff I've either used/built with or faced a lot and a couple things that I wouldn't have talked about if they weren't nommed in the thread (not gonna comment on stuff like Mewtwo because that's still in development - please don't theorymon with it that's not how this works).


:Eternatus: Up to A+/S: I see this as similar to Melmetal's original ranking in that it's perfect defensively for the current meta and a staple on most good teams. Every time something that isn't Fish/Beak/V-create gets banned this just gets stronger and more logical to build with. Unlike most walls it is almost entirely consistent at its job, you're not really getting lured by anything you beat other than the Intrepid Sword guys with Photon (yes you should be running this but it is still incredibly uncommon and hard to improof regardless). It's worth noting that this mon is kind of a chip magnet in general, a lot of what it wants to beat runs Knock/Wisp/Hazards so it is possible to end up behind the flow of the game if something goes wrong. With the offensive sets I think they're definitely a bit overrated, the mon is bulky and that's cool but without one of the first two defensive abilities i mentioned you're still throwing away quite a bit of utility. After trying the Sheer Force hazards set and playing against it a bit I kinda came to the realisation that its free offensive turns aren't particularly free, you just can't afford to get Knocked for many reasons and the general lack of OHKO power leads to various situations where you're engaging in chip trades you don't want to be in. Quiver knocks up the threat level a ton and cuts away a bunch of soft checks and I'd recommend that over hazards or Recover if you are going to run offensive Etern, just be wary that Ice Scales may halt your offensive progress which is annoying for any set that doesn't pack an in-built way to cripple its checks.

:Melmetal: Down to A+: There's not much to say here, we have other equally good ways to build that don't revolve around this mon now. It's still v good and doesn't have huge drawbacks but once you start trying to maximize its potential as a wall you become semi-passive in that you hit specific mons hard but still get taken advantage of by others for somewhat free momentum. Similar to Etern a lot of sets look to punish the super fat walls in ways other than hitting them with damaging attacks and Melmetal suffers from that as well. Bounce used to be insane, it's still good to have a bouncer but the rise of more convenient Knock absorbers (mainly the PH mons again) prevents most of the cases where a set like that on Melmetal used to win long-term.

:Zekrom: Down to A: Multi-attack sets are pretty dead rn, honestly I think the main issue with them is just that they don't really fit in with the support you can afford to give them in this meta. You have Choiced breakers forcing immediate responses from inconsistent defensive mons and you have other stuff (mainly Poison Heal) aiming to control the game via residual damage and keeping momentum. Smash Zekrom doesn't really fit in with either crowd because it's too slow and weak initially to control the game, but when it comes to breaking you usually have to hit the Smash button first which can be played around. PH makes much more sense because it becomes much easier to click the setup move and cripple your checks, which means you get a consistent output from the mon. The problem with PH isn't so much that Grounds check it as much as it is that things other than Grounds check it. If you were able to freely run Wisp + Knock with no consequences you'd be able to always burn Grounds and remove their items which would be enough for teammates to break through. If you throw in the fact that people are also running mons like Etern/PH Resh though then it's much harder to choose your set and teammates. It's still very much a redeemable mon, people don't seem to be mentioning positives when talking about this but the non-Ground non-Etern checks can often be given a run for their money over the space of a few switchins, see this replay as an example of how that can play out.

:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: ??????????: This mon's weird. I think it's kind of a death trap if you're trying to build normally with it, I see a lot of structures which are effectively balance teams with DGZ as the breaker and these risk falling flat on matchup in a lot of situations, especially in the case of Band. Having to account for Rocks, fitting the correct coverage, playing around Dynamax, and most importantly the random PH mons which are bound to come in on half the team and win more efficiently than Darm or just stop it from breaking (looking at you Zama). I'll elaborate on this more in some of my other noms but the general idea is the CB DGZ balances that were running over the meta a couple months ago are constantly becoming more and more inconsistent. The thing is, this is still the most dangerous mon in the meta imo - it has the highest potential to get a ton of work done in a short amount of time (though it often gets less time to work with compared to other top offensive mons). This opens up the possibility for different ways of building with it to shine, the two I've been seeing lately are DGZ spam and simply switching the CB sets for something more flexible like LO Magic Guard (see Loser's RMT). Both of these aim to cut some of Darm's weaknesses while still focusing on Darm's main niche which is having 0 switchins - MG LO gets rid of the Choice Lock and general weakness to being chipped, whereas Darm spam serves as a way to ignore some of the building limitations that would normally come with a Darm balance team, trading the ability to cover threats and even to improof for a faster playstyle that also attempts to cut down on Darm's need to find free switchins from its teammates. Stuff like Darm spam is obviously high risk high reward but it's new and confusing enough for me to shy away from judging Darm's viability as a whole, and I'm not sure anyone else can give a better account here so I've left it as ?????? because ??????.

:Wobbuffet: Down to A-: This just isn't that good tbh, the dynamics that made Imposter so good last gen are mostly missing right now. When it's not running Scarf it can heal up on some defensive mons, except it barely matters whether Imposter is healthy because it just gets slammed by most of the offensive threats anyway. Scarf is alright, some people are very tight with improofs when it comes to stuff like Isword, so at least you can punish them. Also if there's anything you want to scout in this meta it's Darm and other things that also slam you for a ton of damage so yea it's kinda difficult to use this rn compared to the other stuff in A rank where you have more control over their output.

Oh god I just realised I'm about to murder A- rank where are they all going LOL.

:Kyurem-Black: Down to like B at least tbh: This has been beaten to death by now I'm pretty sure everyone knows this is out of place by now.

:Zamazenta-Crowned: Up to A/A+: This has been covered a lot and I think it's fairly self-explanatory, this is the third of three "good" defensive mons in the meta and it should rise to reflect this.

:Kyurem-White: Stay in A-: Yeah you definitely have to prepare pretty speciifcally for this but with Zama-C back I think we have a very good counter and a good amount of checks which I generally find is enough to annoy Kyu-W heavily. Outside of that it has some utility but is still fairly slow with not the best typing.

:Zamazenta: Maybe rise to A? I'm not fully sure about this because we can't compare it to stuff like Kyu-B when that's not really an A- mon, but it feels like every time I see Zamazenta it's at least neutral in the matchup, and sometimes it just doesn't die. A lot of the more offensive builds really struggle against Cotton Guard, and most builds in general just kinda struggle to put pressure on PH when considering moves like Knock and Wisp. It's a p easy mon to get in and much harder to take advantage of, considering you're beating some of the more common breakers like Darm 1v1 a lot of teams kinda try to sit there wondering how they're gonna make any progress against it which is favourable for the Zama user as they get to control the game. Intrepid Sword is hot too, definitely one of my favourite choiced breakers even though I'm generally not a fan of them, avoiding death by Dynamaxed Imposter is a big plus and the Speed tier makes it pretty easy to just throw off whatever attacks you feel like using, including U-turn because Zama fits that much more easily than most choiced guys. You lose out on a few switchin opportunities compared to PH though.

:Zeraora: Drop to B+: This is dangerous, but definitely kinda hard to run due to various mid-grounding options and lack of bulk. The rise in defensive Etern p much makes this drop a subrank on its own tbh.


Somehow B+ manages to just be irrelevant in the current meta compared to many things lower than it idk how that happened. Kill Solgaleo and Zacian, Pex needs to drop too it doesn't keep up with the meta.

Ferrothorn should drop a little bit too, I don't fully agree with the "what does this do" comments though. Primsea in itself is already such a valuable ability with its weather resetting, the difference between this and Melm is that here we can at least check Reshiram and it's one of the harder answers for it to cheese through. The better question is what it does over Zama-C, and that's not really about walling FishBeak, because you just don't. The difference is that getting 2HKOed by Banded Fishious Rends when trying to reset weather/block darm V-create instead of getting OHKOed is pretty major for those types of matchups. Ferro would fit fine in B imo.


I think people are overestimating the cost of running less efficient defensive mons on teams, there's a lot of auxiliary roles that are really cool to have on teams when prepping for various styles, and even if you don't have the ability to customize a less good mon to beat a wide range of threats, you can still make it useful in actual games. So many of the cheese teams in this meta struggle to operate if anything clicks SR, it doesn't have to be an efficient SR setter against all types of teams to put in work, you're just targeting the teams like rain that rely on pivoting so much that the Defogger is running a set like Spectral/Teleport/Fog/Recovery (awful at removing hazards from anything). Pivoting moves can be the same in a lot of cases, running them on the good defensive mons can take away from their effectiveness, but having even one slow-ish pivot on your team is very useful. Another example would be Prankster users - so many mons can pull off Encore + Haze Prank sets at roughly the same effectiveness, it just comes down to your team's needs. Gen 8 teambuilding is not as streamlined as Gen 7 teambuilding, nearly everyone's building balance/BO and they know they will want/need to delve into the pool of "ass" mons to fit the roles that the teams need in order to function well. There's some really clear cases of some of these mons just being too outclassed and then some which aren't outclassed and actually see a lot of use. Meanwhile offense in this meta is mostly carried by Species Spam and don't have as much ability to gain a niche just based on their typing for example, so niche offensive mons have it a lot worse when it comes to justifying their use. I don't feel like the current VR or the nominations reflect this very well:


:Gyarados: Stay in B-: No one's really using this right now and it's far from an easy slot (outside of being a PH user), I don't see why this needs to rise.

:Seismitoad: Up to B: Everyone's nomming this to B- but idt there's any need to keep this so low. It provides more than our B- and C mons anyway, it may be flawed but even acting as a check to Zac-C and Zek and complicating Darm's life when it comes to choosing sets is a good start, Ground STAB is also good enough that you can free up the team utility slots that i mentioned before, Teleport works really nicely on this mon especially.

:Snorlax: Up to B: Similarly useful but somewhat flawed mon. Has multiple respectable sets that can justify their place on teams, as just one example Resh doesn't burn PH Lax, this is majorly useful as it changes the whole dynamic there and avoids having to throw Darm and Resh under the same blanket which is somehow too small for either of them.

:Incineroar: Up to C: Having used Ice Scales Incin more on a few teams I am happy to call it easily more worthy of a teamslot than p much the whole D rank, this feels awkward at times but for the most part it takes pressure off the team by Spinning and throwing out Knock Offs, obviously boots help there and you take care of some important mons with limited checks, namely Kyu-W and Lunala. Its main weakness comes down to whether the rest of the team can keep up with the game when Kyu-W and Lunala click Volt Switch, but that's just kinda what makes those breakers good because you can't counteract that possibility anyway. The other thing is it's v similar to Scales Zama-C in terms of what it checks, the difference here is you can check Resh better which is enough to give it a niche.

:Type Null: Up to C: Look this mon isn't great and Ice Scales faces competition with Scales Lax which is also meh, but it has the right typing to pull off Prank and do something without being outclassed, and I mean... look at D rank.

:Dragapult: Stay in B-: Specs Adapt Pult + Spikes = profit. This at least has a niche over Lunala because you have more speed to make use of your broken Ghost move and STAB Dmax Cannon which is really helpful for the lategame. The speed tier and spammable STABs, as well as the ability to fit Volt Switch on its set, give it enough justification to be used on Spikes builds, without Spikes you miss a few big KOs but you can at least buy time/momentum.

:Golisopod: Up to B+: Specifically based on the PH set. This is one of the mons where I keep watching it put in work in actual games even though it looks meh in the builder. One of the easiest mons to scout defensive mons and pivot out with, Protect clones are v annoying for the pivot + choiced breaker teams as a result (including rain). Right now my favourite Tect clone is King's Shield on this, the attack drop can really help vs things like Darm, but you do lose out on blocking Wisp and Defog and it's harder to activate the Toxic Orb early game. Also there's generally not much Bounce in the meta so you're getting free hazards a lot of the time.

One last thing because everyone seemingly forgot to do this.

:Keldeo: Up to not UR (probably C)

Rain has had a bit of a surge as a fringe playstyle and it kinda relies on having both Keldeo and Barraskewda to be a threat. Keldeo's important here because you need to have a Special breaker on the team that can force out some staples and make progress if the opponent doesn't have a bulky Ice Scales mon. In any case once you shuffle the opposing team you can actually start to do work with the likes of Barra, otherwise you just get situations where your best way to kill FC Melm or something like that is to pivot into Barra and try to beat it 1v1 which is a horrible idea.

Wew this was longer than I expected but so much has changed since this was made, hope we see an update soon.
 

Funbot28

Men say I taste like sugar but ain't shit sweet
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Viability Rankings Update (12/03/2020)

Thanks for everyone's contribution to the thread! The resources council has taken everyone's thoughts and opinions into consideration and has voted on nominations that have been brought up in the thread alongside internal nominations discussed within the council itself. Enough rambling, here are the changes:

Rises
:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen A -> A+
:Seismitoad:Seismitoad C -> B
:Excadrill:Excadrill C -> B-
:Type-Null:Type: Null D -> C
:Eternatus:Eternatus A -> S
:Lunala:Lunala B+ -> A-
:Zamazenta-Crowned:Zamazenta-Crowned A- -> A+
:Golisopod:Golisopod B -> B+
:Snorlax:Snorlax C -> B-
:Mewtwo:Mewtwo B+ -> A-
:Zamazenta:Zamazenta A- -> A
:Zacian-Crowned:Zacian-Crowned A+ -> S

Drops
:Zacian:Zacian B+ -> B-
:Kyurem-Black:Kyurem-Black A- -> B
:Solgaleo:Solgaleo B+ -> B-
:Melmetal:Melmetal S -> A+
:Ferrothorn:Ferrothorn B+ -> B-
:Toxapex:Toxapex B+ -> B-
:Rhyperior:Rhyperior D -> UR
:Silvally-Grass:Silvally-Grass D -> UR
:Pikachu:Pikachu B -> D
:Aegislash:Aegislash B -> B-
:Darmanitan-Zen:Darmanitan-Zen B -> B-
:Doublade:Doublade C -> D
:Munchlax:Munchlax B -> UR
:Celebi:Celebi D -> UR
:Zeraora:Zeraora A- -> B+
:Corviknight:Corviknight C -> D
:Hippowdon:Hippowdon C -> D
:Mandibuzz:Mandibuzz C -> D
:Gourgeist-Super:Gourgeist-Super D -> UR
:Obstagoon:Obstagoon D -> UR

Newly Added
:Incineroar:Incineroar UR -> D
:Lapras:Lapras UR -> D
:Keldeo:Keldeo UR -> D


You can view the council's votes here

Most of these are pretty self-explanatory as the metagame has been progressing thanks to certain recent changes such as the recent Octolock and other metagame trends that have been observed. Here are some explanations for certain notable changes:

A -> S
Eternatus has risen immensely in popularity and viability thanks to the surge of defensive sets such as Fur Coat, Prankster, and Magic Bounce alongside offensive sets such as Sheer Force which still have an strong place in the current metagame as well. Eternatus's flexibility as both an offensive and defensive threat enables it find a place on many teams as a result, especially in a metagame with a limited amount of defensive threats that can also exert offensive pressure. With all these reasonings in mind, Eternatus provides an invaluable teamslot on the majority of teams, checking dangerous threats such as Zekrom, Zacian-C, Zamazenta, and Reshiram and and thus has risen two sub-ranks to reflect this recent change in the metagame.

:Zacian-Crowned: A+ -> S
Even despite the recent nerf to it's offensive potential with a restricted item slot and removal of Double Iron Bash, Zacian-C remains one of the top dogs (pun intended) in the current metagame thanks to it's incredible offensive potential which warps teambuilding to a considerable degree. Being one of the most fastest and powerful physically offensive threats around, teams need dedicated checks to it in order not to succumb to it's amazing wallbreaking capabilities. A rise to S seemed justified at this point because of this.

:Seismitoad: C -> B
Seismitoad takes advantage of it's amazing defensive typing in order to act as one of the best checks to dangerous threats such as Zacian-C and Zekrom with it's Fur Coat set. While being somewhat passive at times, Seismitoad can still impose a nuisance to a large amount of threats due to it's STABs alone and other common coverage options such as SR, Spectral Thief and Entrainment. Grass is an uncommon coverage option on the majority of physical attackers, only furthering Toad's ability to blanket check a wide variety of threats.

:Melmetal: Melmetal S -> A+
While Melmetal is still an amazing defensive pivot that is still seen on a wide variety of teams, it has fallen off recently as more teams are starting to implore other defensive threats such as Zamazenta-C and Eternatus on their teams. Melmetal just struggles to exert an offensive presence and sometimes is too passive compared to the previously mentioned defensive pivots. Nontheless, it is still a versatile and sturdy defensive threat that warrants ranking in the higher echelon of A.

That is all for now, continue to keep up the great posting!
 
I'll give thoughts on stuff I've either used/built with or faced a lot and a couple things that I wouldn't have talked about if they weren't nommed in the thread (not gonna comment on stuff like Mewtwo because that's still in development - please don't theorymon with it that's not how this works).


:Eternatus: Up to A+/S: I see this as similar to Melmetal's original ranking in that it's perfect defensively for the current meta and a staple on most good teams. Every time something that isn't Fish/Beak/V-create gets banned this just gets stronger and more logical to build with. Unlike most walls it is almost entirely consistent at its job, you're not really getting lured by anything you beat other than the Intrepid Sword guys with Photon (yes you should be running this but it is still incredibly uncommon and hard to improof regardless). It's worth noting that this mon is kind of a chip magnet in general, a lot of what it wants to beat runs Knock/Wisp/Hazards so it is possible to end up behind the flow of the game if something goes wrong. With the offensive sets I think they're definitely a bit overrated, the mon is bulky and that's cool but without one of the first two defensive abilities i mentioned you're still throwing away quite a bit of utility. After trying the Sheer Force hazards set and playing against it a bit I kinda came to the realisation that its free offensive turns aren't particularly free, you just can't afford to get Knocked for many reasons and the general lack of OHKO power leads to various situations where you're engaging in chip trades you don't want to be in. Quiver knocks up the threat level a ton and cuts away a bunch of soft checks and I'd recommend that over hazards or Recover if you are going to run offensive Etern, just be wary that Ice Scales may halt your offensive progress which is annoying for any set that doesn't pack an in-built way to cripple its checks.

:Melmetal: Down to A+: There's not much to say here, we have other equally good ways to build that don't revolve around this mon now. It's still v good and doesn't have huge drawbacks but once you start trying to maximize its potential as a wall you become semi-passive in that you hit specific mons hard but still get taken advantage of by others for somewhat free momentum. Similar to Etern a lot of sets look to punish the super fat walls in ways other than hitting them with damaging attacks and Melmetal suffers from that as well. Bounce used to be insane, it's still good to have a bouncer but the rise of more convenient Knock absorbers (mainly the PH mons again) prevents most of the cases where a set like that on Melmetal used to win long-term.

:Zekrom: Down to A: Multi-attack sets are pretty dead rn, honestly I think the main issue with them is just that they don't really fit in with the support you can afford to give them in this meta. You have Choiced breakers forcing immediate responses from inconsistent defensive mons and you have other stuff (mainly Poison Heal) aiming to control the game via residual damage and keeping momentum. Smash Zekrom doesn't really fit in with either crowd because it's too slow and weak initially to control the game, but when it comes to breaking you usually have to hit the Smash button first which can be played around. PH makes much more sense because it becomes much easier to click the setup move and cripple your checks, which means you get a consistent output from the mon. The problem with PH isn't so much that Grounds check it as much as it is that things other than Grounds check it. If you were able to freely run Wisp + Knock with no consequences you'd be able to always burn Grounds and remove their items which would be enough for teammates to break through. If you throw in the fact that people are also running mons like Etern/PH Resh though then it's much harder to choose your set and teammates. It's still very much a redeemable mon, people don't seem to be mentioning positives when talking about this but the non-Ground non-Etern checks can often be given a run for their money over the space of a few switchins, see this replay as an example of how that can play out.

:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: ??????????: This mon's weird. I think it's kind of a death trap if you're trying to build normally with it, I see a lot of structures which are effectively balance teams with DGZ as the breaker and these risk falling flat on matchup in a lot of situations, especially in the case of Band. Having to account for Rocks, fitting the correct coverage, playing around Dynamax, and most importantly the random PH mons which are bound to come in on half the team and win more efficiently than Darm or just stop it from breaking (looking at you Zama). I'll elaborate on this more in some of my other noms but the general idea is the CB DGZ balances that were running over the meta a couple months ago are constantly becoming more and more inconsistent. The thing is, this is still the most dangerous mon in the meta imo - it has the highest potential to get a ton of work done in a short amount of time (though it often gets less time to work with compared to other top offensive mons). This opens up the possibility for different ways of building with it to shine, the two I've been seeing lately are DGZ spam and simply switching the CB sets for something more flexible like LO Magic Guard (see Loser's RMT). Both of these aim to cut some of Darm's weaknesses while still focusing on Darm's main niche which is having 0 switchins - MG LO gets rid of the Choice Lock and general weakness to being chipped, whereas Darm spam serves as a way to ignore some of the building limitations that would normally come with a Darm balance team, trading the ability to cover threats and even to improof for a faster playstyle that also attempts to cut down on Darm's need to find free switchins from its teammates. Stuff like Darm spam is obviously high risk high reward but it's new and confusing enough for me to shy away from judging Darm's viability as a whole, and I'm not sure anyone else can give a better account here so I've left it as ?????? because ??????.

:Wobbuffet: Down to A-: This just isn't that good tbh, the dynamics that made Imposter so good last gen are mostly missing right now. When it's not running Scarf it can heal up on some defensive mons, except it barely matters whether Imposter is healthy because it just gets slammed by most of the offensive threats anyway. Scarf is alright, some people are very tight with improofs when it comes to stuff like Isword, so at least you can punish them. Also if there's anything you want to scout in this meta it's Darm and other things that also slam you for a ton of damage so yea it's kinda difficult to use this rn compared to the other stuff in A rank where you have more control over their output.

Oh god I just realised I'm about to murder A- rank where are they all going LOL.

:Kyurem-Black: Down to like B at least tbh: This has been beaten to death by now I'm pretty sure everyone knows this is out of place by now.

:Zamazenta-Crowned: Up to A/A+: This has been covered a lot and I think it's fairly self-explanatory, this is the third of three "good" defensive mons in the meta and it should rise to reflect this.

:Kyurem-White: Stay in A-: Yeah you definitely have to prepare pretty speciifcally for this but with Zama-C back I think we have a very good counter and a good amount of checks which I generally find is enough to annoy Kyu-W heavily. Outside of that it has some utility but is still fairly slow with not the best typing.

:Zamazenta: Maybe rise to A? I'm not fully sure about this because we can't compare it to stuff like Kyu-B when that's not really an A- mon, but it feels like every time I see Zamazenta it's at least neutral in the matchup, and sometimes it just doesn't die. A lot of the more offensive builds really struggle against Cotton Guard, and most builds in general just kinda struggle to put pressure on PH when considering moves like Knock and Wisp. It's a p easy mon to get in and much harder to take advantage of, considering you're beating some of the more common breakers like Darm 1v1 a lot of teams kinda try to sit there wondering how they're gonna make any progress against it which is favourable for the Zama user as they get to control the game. Intrepid Sword is hot too, definitely one of my favourite choiced breakers even though I'm generally not a fan of them, avoiding death by Dynamaxed Imposter is a big plus and the Speed tier makes it pretty easy to just throw off whatever attacks you feel like using, including U-turn because Zama fits that much more easily than most choiced guys. You lose out on a few switchin opportunities compared to PH though.

:Zeraora: Drop to B+: This is dangerous, but definitely kinda hard to run due to various mid-grounding options and lack of bulk. The rise in defensive Etern p much makes this drop a subrank on its own tbh.


Somehow B+ manages to just be irrelevant in the current meta compared to many things lower than it idk how that happened. Kill Solgaleo and Zacian, Pex needs to drop too it doesn't keep up with the meta.

Ferrothorn should drop a little bit too, I don't fully agree with the "what does this do" comments though. Primsea in itself is already such a valuable ability with its weather resetting, the difference between this and Melm is that here we can at least check Reshiram and it's one of the harder answers for it to cheese through. The better question is what it does over Zama-C, and that's not really about walling FishBeak, because you just don't. The difference is that getting 2HKOed by Banded Fishious Rends when trying to reset weather/block darm V-create instead of getting OHKOed is pretty major for those types of matchups. Ferro would fit fine in B imo.


I think people are overestimating the cost of running less efficient defensive mons on teams, there's a lot of auxiliary roles that are really cool to have on teams when prepping for various styles, and even if you don't have the ability to customize a less good mon to beat a wide range of threats, you can still make it useful in actual games. So many of the cheese teams in this meta struggle to operate if anything clicks SR, it doesn't have to be an efficient SR setter against all types of teams to put in work, you're just targeting the teams like rain that rely on pivoting so much that the Defogger is running a set like Spectral/Teleport/Fog/Recovery (awful at removing hazards from anything). Pivoting moves can be the same in a lot of cases, running them on the good defensive mons can take away from their effectiveness, but having even one slow-ish pivot on your team is very useful. Another example would be Prankster users - so many mons can pull off Encore + Haze Prank sets at roughly the same effectiveness, it just comes down to your team's needs. Gen 8 teambuilding is not as streamlined as Gen 7 teambuilding, nearly everyone's building balance/BO and they know they will want/need to delve into the pool of "ass" mons to fit the roles that the teams need in order to function well. There's some really clear cases of some of these mons just being too outclassed and then some which aren't outclassed and actually see a lot of use. Meanwhile offense in this meta is mostly carried by Species Spam and don't have as much ability to gain a niche just based on their typing for example, so niche offensive mons have it a lot worse when it comes to justifying their use. I don't feel like the current VR or the nominations reflect this very well:


:Gyarados: Stay in B-: No one's really using this right now and it's far from an easy slot (outside of being a PH user), I don't see why this needs to rise.

:Seismitoad: Up to B: Everyone's nomming this to B- but idt there's any need to keep this so low. It provides more than our B- and C mons anyway, it may be flawed but even acting as a check to Zac-C and Zek and complicating Darm's life when it comes to choosing sets is a good start, Ground STAB is also good enough that you can free up the team utility slots that i mentioned before, Teleport works really nicely on this mon especially.

:Snorlax: Up to B: Similarly useful but somewhat flawed mon. Has multiple respectable sets that can justify their place on teams, as just one example Resh doesn't burn PH Lax, this is majorly useful as it changes the whole dynamic there and avoids having to throw Darm and Resh under the same blanket which is somehow too small for either of them.

:Incineroar: Up to C: Having used Ice Scales Incin more on a few teams I am happy to call it easily more worthy of a teamslot than p much the whole D rank, this feels awkward at times but for the most part it takes pressure off the team by Spinning and throwing out Knock Offs, obviously boots help there and you take care of some important mons with limited checks, namely Kyu-W and Lunala. Its main weakness comes down to whether the rest of the team can keep up with the game when Kyu-W and Lunala click Volt Switch, but that's just kinda what makes those breakers good because you can't counteract that possibility anyway. The other thing is it's v similar to Scales Zama-C in terms of what it checks, the difference here is you can check Resh better which is enough to give it a niche.

:Type Null: Up to C: Look this mon isn't great and Ice Scales faces competition with Scales Lax which is also meh, but it has the right typing to pull off Prank and do something without being outclassed, and I mean... look at D rank.

:Dragapult: Stay in B-: Specs Adapt Pult + Spikes = profit. This at least has a niche over Lunala because you have more speed to make use of your broken Ghost move and STAB Dmax Cannon which is really helpful for the lategame. The speed tier and spammable STABs, as well as the ability to fit Volt Switch on its set, give it enough justification to be used on Spikes builds, without Spikes you miss a few big KOs but you can at least buy time/momentum.

:Golisopod: Up to B+: Specifically based on the PH set. This is one of the mons where I keep watching it put in work in actual games even though it looks meh in the builder. One of the easiest mons to scout defensive mons and pivot out with, Protect clones are v annoying for the pivot + choiced breaker teams as a result (including rain). Right now my favourite Tect clone is King's Shield on this, the attack drop can really help vs things like Darm, but you do lose out on blocking Wisp and Defog and it's harder to activate the Toxic Orb early game. Also there's generally not much Bounce in the meta so you're getting free hazards a lot of the time.

One last thing because everyone seemingly forgot to do this.

:Keldeo: Up to not UR (probably C)

Rain has had a bit of a surge as a fringe playstyle and it kinda relies on having both Keldeo and Barraskewda to be a threat. Keldeo's important here because you need to have a Special breaker on the team that can force out some staples and make progress if the opponent doesn't have a bulky Ice Scales mon. In any case once you shuffle the opposing team you can actually start to do work with the likes of Barra, otherwise you just get situations where your best way to kill FC Melm or something like that is to pivot into Barra and try to beat it 1v1 which is a horrible idea.

Wew this was longer than I expected but so much has changed since this was made, hope we see an update soon.
Quick question:
Why would you use Magic Guard Life Orb when you can use Heavy Duty Boots Intrepid Sword?

The boost is retained during Dynamax, just like Life Orb, and most Prankster users are weak to at least one coverage move Darmanitan-Z packs

You are immune to passive Hail, Burn, and now hazards, so what else are you going to need to be shielded from that Magic Guard provides? Rocky Helmets? Baneful Bunkers/Spiky Shields?

The set of Wood Hammer / Icicle Crash / V-Create / Bolt Beak in a loser ‘s Team is doing less on all counts.

Power Whip can be used on Intrepid Sword sets, at 120 x 1.5 = 180 damage vs 156 (120 x 1.3 from MG Life Orb), putting it on par with Choice Band Desolate Land Solar Blade which is 125 x 1.5 = 187.5

This is an important difference since Rhydon can survive Life Orb Magic Guard:

+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar Zen Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 388-460 (93.7 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Zen Solar Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 408-480 (98.5 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

VS:

252 Atk Life Orb Darmanitan-Galar Zen Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 338-400 (81.6 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
***
252 Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Galar Zen: 372-438 (90 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

It’s pretty sad when something 4x weak to a 120 base power move can live it and KO you back. Since Topsy Turvey isn’t used on Prankster very often, if at all, it seems likely that a Darmanitan-Galar-Zen will hit before it loses its boost, and that’s if the target survives what Darmanitan-Zen-Mode uses in the first place.

+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar-Z Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar: 340-400 (84.1 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Darmanitan-Galar-Z Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Tyranitar can secure KOs with STAB Rock in retaliation to Life Orb.

Like Life Orb, it isn’t Choice locked and can maintain a sense of bluffing Choice Band due to what Intrepid Sword sets typically use. Further, it is less vulnerable to Knock Off since lacking Power on something as frail as Darmanitan-Galar-Zen makes it more vulnerable to the other Pokemon that can survive its weaker hits. If Heavy Duty Boosts gets knocked off, it will not lose its +1 Atk, and since its already switched in before it loses it, it would need to be forced out again to take hazard damage. Offense is Darmanitan-Galar-Z’s defense, and with Intrepid Sword + Heavy Duty Boots, it has the main advantages of Magic Guard Life Orb, only with more power.

Edit: If Imposter is an issue, then you could use a Fur Coat Pokemon, such as Unova Darmanitan-Zen Mode:

+2 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Zen: 151-178 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Since it packs Spectral Thief, it could just steal its boosts (even on the second hit), and then Recover as Imposter is forced out, thanks to Leftovers. If packing it’s own Heavy Duty Boots, it would Recover on the second Bolt Beak, to stall a switch.
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top