BH BH Central Resources Thread

[xavgb]

Quick question:
Why would you use Magic Guard Life Orb when you can use Heavy Duty Boots Intrepid Sword?

The boost is retained during Dynamax, just like Life Orb, and most Prankster users are weak to at least one coverage move Darmanitan-Z packs

You are immune to passive Hail, Burn, and now hazards, so what else are you going to need to be shielded from that Magic Guard provides? Rocky Helmets? Baneful Bunkers/Spiky Shields?

The set of Wood Hammer / Icicle Crash / V-Create / Bolt Beak in a loser ‘s Team is doing less on all counts.

Power Whip can be used on Intrepid Sword sets, at 120 x 1.5 = 180 damage vs 156 (120 x 1.3 from MG Life Orb), putting it on par with Choice Band Desolate Land Solar Blade which is 125 x 1.5 = 187.5

This is an important difference since Rhydon can survive Life Orb Magic Guard:

+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar Zen Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 388-460 (93.7 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Zen Solar Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 408-480 (98.5 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

VS:

252 Atk Life Orb Darmanitan-Galar Zen Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 338-400 (81.6 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
***
252 Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Galar Zen: 372-438 (90 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

It’s pretty sad when something 4x weak to a 120 base power move can live it and KO you back. Since Topsy Turvey isn’t used on Prankster very often, if at all, it seems likely that a Darmanitan-Galar-Zen will hit before it loses its boost, and that’s if the target survives what Darmanitan-Zen-Mode uses in the first place.

+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar-Z Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar: 340-400 (84.1 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Darmanitan-Galar-Z Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Tyranitar can secure KOs with STAB Rock in retaliation to Life Orb.

Like Life Orb, it isn’t Choice locked and can maintain a sense of bluffing Choice Band due to what Intrepid Sword sets typically use. Further, it is less vulnerable to Knock Off since lacking Power on something as frail as Darmanitan-Galar-Zen makes it more vulnerable to the other Pokemon that can survive its weaker hits. If Heavy Duty Boosts gets knocked off, it will not lose its +1 Atk, and since its already switched in before it loses it, it would need to be forced out again to take hazard damage. Offense is Darmanitan-Galar-Z’s defense, and with Intrepid Sword + Heavy Duty Boots, it has the main advantages of Magic Guard Life Orb, only with more power.

This is a nice idea, and admittedly I hadn't thought of it myself, but there is one major problem in the form of Imposter. The Imposter of a MG LO set is significantly weaker and easier to handle (especially considering it does not have the item). Non-Choiced Darmanitan sets thrive off having amazing coverage; replacing such a set with Intrepid Sword + Heavy-Duty Boots either greatly limits the viability of Imposter-proofing options, or forces the Darm set to drop coverage and allow it to be walled by more threats.

As an example, even with loser's team using one of the stronger improofs in FF Steelix, +2 Imposter is still a real threat:

+2 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 141-166 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

To put this into perspective, with Steelix taking much closer to 50 percent now it risks being ended if it gets flinched while trying to Recover or just if it's taken some chip damage elsewhere. There's a lot more breathing room in that situation with Magic Guard which would help recover momentum more easily.

Dynamax poses an even larger threat:

+2 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Max Hailstorm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 213-252 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Personally I'd say the advantages aren't worth the risk/cost of trying to work around Imposter, and I often feel the same way about many Intrepid Sword sets despite their undeniable power. In general if you put Intrepid Sword on something your main concern should be whether you actually have the tools available to stomach a Dynamaxed Imposter - if the improof is breakable then the rest of the game can go sideways pretty quickly in that scenario, even though Imposter is technically the mon you have the most control over in the building phase.

 

[Champion Leon]

This is a nice idea, and admittedly I hadn't thought of it myself, but there is one major problem in the form of Imposter. The Imposter of a MG LO set is significantly weaker and easier to handle (especially considering it does not have the item). Non-Choiced Darmanitan sets thrive off having amazing coverage; replacing such a set with Intrepid Sword + Heavy-Duty Boots either greatly limits the viability of Imposter-proofing options, or forces the Darm set to drop coverage and allow it to be walled by more threats.

As an example, even with loser's team using one of the stronger improofs in FF Steelix, +2 Imposter is still a real threat:

+2 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 141-166 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

To put this into perspective, with Steelix taking much closer to 50 percent now it risks being ended if it gets flinched while trying to Recover or just if it's taken some chip damage elsewhere. There's a lot more breathing room in that situation with Magic Guard which would help recover momentum more easily.

Dynamax poses an even larger threat:

+2 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Max Hailstorm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 213-252 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Personally I'd say the advantages aren't worth the risk/cost of trying to work around Imposter, and I often feel the same way about many Intrepid Sword sets despite their undeniable power. In general if you put Intrepid Sword on something your main concern should be whether you actually have the tools available to stomach a Dynamaxed Imposter - if the improof is breakable then the rest of the game can go sideways pretty quickly in that scenario, even though Imposter is technically the mon you have the most control over in the building phase.

I guess as you typed this, you have missed my edit made about 12 minutes ago.
My Improof was Fur Coat Darmanitan-Zen Mode (Unova), which resists Ice, Fire, and Grass, and takes even less when Bolt Beak is Dynamaxed.

Further, I guess when the Dynamax suspect ends, Dynamax could end up completely banned.

I will post the part I edited my prior post, here below:

“Edit: If Imposter is an issue, then you could use a Fur Coat Pokemon, such as Unova Darmanitan-Zen Mode:

+2 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Zen: 151-178 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Since it packs Spectral Thief, it could just steal its boosts (even on the second hit), and then Recover as Imposter is forced out, thanks to Leftovers. If packing it’s own Heavy Duty Boots, it would Recover on the second Bolt Beak, to stall a switch.”

For worst case scenario 42.9 x 2 (hits) = 85.8% - 12.5% (2 Leftovers) = 73.3% damage during the Spectral Thief turn.

Suddenly at half power, the most Imposter would do is + 21.45% to 73.3% = 94.75% - 6.25% from Leftovers = 88.5% damage

The third hit is the turn Darmanitan would have used Recover 88.5%-50% = 38.5% damage, leaving Darmanitan-Z at 61.5% HP ready to Baton Pass, or Heal again, and go for another round.

 

[Champion Leon]

This is a nice idea, and admittedly I hadn't thought of it myself, but there is one major problem in the form of Imposter. The Imposter of a MG LO set is significantly weaker and easier to handle (especially considering it does not have the item). Non-Choiced Darmanitan sets thrive off having amazing coverage; replacing such a set with Intrepid Sword + Heavy-Duty Boots either greatly limits the viability of Imposter-proofing options, or forces the Darm set to drop coverage and allow it to be walled by more threats.

As an example, even with loser's team using one of the stronger improofs in FF Steelix, +2 Imposter is still a real threat:

+2 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 141-166 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

To put this into perspective, with Steelix taking much closer to 50 percent now it risks being ended if it gets flinched while trying to Recover or just if it's taken some chip damage elsewhere. There's a lot more breathing room in that situation with Magic Guard which would help recover momentum more easily.

Dynamax poses an even larger threat:

+2 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Max Hailstorm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 213-252 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Personally I'd say the advantages aren't worth the risk/cost of trying to work around Imposter, and I often feel the same way about many Intrepid Sword sets despite their undeniable power. In general if you put Intrepid Sword on something your main concern should be whether you actually have the tools available to stomach a Dynamaxed Imposter - if the improof is breakable then the rest of the game can go sideways pretty quickly in that scenario, even though Imposter is technically the mon you have the most control over in the building phase.

+2 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar-Z Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Reshiram: 118-139 (29.2 - 34.4%) -- 5.4% chance to 3HKO

I just realized, from posting my Selfish set, that Reshiram makes an awesome check to Intrepid Sword Imposter Darmanitan-Galar-Z.

I also know it is a legit set since it is the Reshiram analysis:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/reshiram-qc-0-2.3661048/

In fact, the set even states:

“Spectral Thief allows Reshiram to check setup sweepers like Poison Heal Zekrom and Intrepid Sword users like Zacian-C and Galarian Darmanitan-Zen.”

The set packs Heavy-Duty Boots, and takes much less than your FF Steelix, with Reshiram tanking at an almost always 4HKO.

Sure, Imposter can Dynamax, but so can Reshiram, overall, Imposterproofing from a legit standard set is feasible, and offers strong utility in SpA Dragon Coverage and Burn.

I am sticking with Intrepid Sword Heavy-Duty Boots Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Mode, it offers power and can threaten so much more.

 

[fwqef]

I noticed that the Viability Rankings haven’t been updated for a long time so I would like to contribute for the first time. Some thoughts I have:

Zacian-Crowned S—> A+

This mon isn’t actually too hard to wall if you have good physical counterplay, especially since it’s now locked into its rusted sword item. Still its extremely high speed is respectable so I’d put it on par with Darm-gz and Zekrom.

Melmetal A+ —> A

This mon IS amazing but its overpopularity has made people come up with ways to defeat it and I often see it get overwhelmed by V-creates and Mold Breakers these days.

Aegislash, Ferrothorn B- —> C

These mons have really great typing but they actually don’t check much because of their lackluster bulk. For example Flash Fire Ferrothorn gets 2HKO’d by Band Intrepid Zeraora’s Bolt Beak, and Aegislash gets 2HKO’d by pretty much any decently strong neutral hit and gets 2HKO’d by specs refrigerate boomburst.

Snorlax, Umbreon to A

I know this is a pretty huge rise but these guys have good niches as the primary ice scales walls. Slapping one of these guys on your team lets you have a solid matchup verses the majority of special threats. Players are experimenting with ways to bypass these guys (close combat reshiram lol) so they might be becoming worse. Still deserves an A tier imo.

Doublade D -> B-

If you want to actually check stuff, this guy is better off than its evolution Aegislash since it can actually take decently strong physical hits with eviolite. It can use primordial sea/flash fire to cover up its fire weakness or fur coat to easily tank physical hits except strong V-creates or Earthquakes. It does hate getting knocked off however.

Keldeo D -> B-

Many players such as DF-Shock and superSkylake have experimented with Keldeo and I think it has shown its worth with its annoying poison heal quiver dance set or choiced primordial sea set. It is surprisingly annoying to deal with and can become a potent lategame sweeper.

 

[DF-Shock]

Good initiative fwqef! I just desagree with Melmetal drop, FC / Prankster / Psea still great and it walls a lot of things.

Zacian-C -> S to A+

Same opinion, it is dangerous with high speed and Intrepid Sword but with the Rusted Sword and bad STAB coverage, must compensate with support moves (spore or hazards), powerful coverage (V-create / Earthquake), or setup move (SD).
I think it is solid, but doesn't deserve a S rank.

Darm-GZ A+ -> S

The most threatening offensive pokemon in the tier. With insane STAB coverage, and two fillers moves to beat its checks (Close Combat for Psea Zamazenta/Ferro, Bolt Beak for Golisopode/Corviknight, Photon Geyser for Eternatus FC, Earthquake for Darm-Zen), you will need to run often 2 checks Band version, because if you run only one, you must prey the opponent doesn't run a filler move who kill your check. This pokemon is so threatening, you will just switch to your check and gives tempo with U-turn. Also mention it is a good pokemon in HO, with Shell Smash Magic Guard. I know council doesn't agree with me, but it deserve a suspect.

Zekrom A+ -> A

Maybe overestimate. It is a good pokemon but could be walled by some FC user like Seismitoad or Melmetal.

Wobbuffet (imposter) A -> B+

I didn't think Imposter is so great. People are prepared, teams are imposter-proof with PH setup sweeper for exemple.
The metagame is very limited and Fur Coat / Ice Scales, this metagame already tends to be wall, so no need for a Scarf imposter to manage these threats. It still good to PPstall or prevent abusive setup but... It isn't so good.

Mewtwo A- -> B

Mewtwo lose the combinaison of Spore + Octolock, and it hurts. It is walled by special walls like Umbreon. SF LO and PH isn't great in the actual meta. It get outspeed, vulnerable to Knock off and Spectral Thief, isn't bulky... You will have better options if you want a PH, or a special offensive pokemon.

Umbreon C -> B+

The best Special wall, it walls so many pokemons (Eternatus / Reshiram / Mewtwo / Kyurem-W). I think A is quite abusive, Mixed set could kill it, it is kinda passive, predictible... But it is a great wall support.

Snorlax B- -> B+

One of best special wall. Could run PH / Ice Scales / Prankster efficiently. It is more versatile than Umbreon but still passive.


Keldeo D -> B

A lot of people saw me play a Keldeo PH, and yep it is good. It has an interesting STAB coverage, a quite good SPA, it outspeed all thing at +1. Secret Sword STAB hurts more Umbreon and Snorlax than a Reshiram PH or a Mewtwo PH, force them to recover more often. Specs Keldeo in rain (set-up by a drizzle or Psea) hurts a lot with Water Spout.
I think it deserve a B rank, clearly an underestimated PH offensive set with a niche set of Specs rain abuser.

Here you can see how each Keldeo sets pressure the opponent team : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1087895296-dcycw4ki4ei4rdl5rev5fip006xkwq6pw

 

[Champion Leon]

Good initiative fwqef! I just desagree with Melmetal drop, FC / Prankster / Psea still great and it walls a lot of things.

Zacian-C -> S to A+

Same opinion, it is dangerous with high speed and Intrepid Sword but with the Rusted Sword and bad STAB coverage, must compensate with support moves (spore or hazards), powerful coverage (V-create / Earthquake), or setup move (SD).
I think it is solid, but doesn't deserve a S rank.

Darm-GZ A+ -> S

The most threatening offensive pokemon in the tier. With insane STAB coverage, and two fillers moves to beat its checks (Close Combat for Psea Zamazenta/Ferro, Bolt Beak for Golisopode/Corviknight, Photon Geyser for Eternatus FC, Earthquake for Darm-Zen), you will need to run often 2 checks Band version, because if you run only one, you must prey the opponent doesn't run a filler move who kill your check. This pokemon is so threatening, you will just switch to your check and gives tempo with U-turn. Also mention it is a good pokemon in HO, with Shell Smash Magic Guard. I know council doesn't agree with me, but it deserve a suspect.

Zekrom A+ -> A

Maybe overestimate. It is a good pokemon but could be walled by some FC user like Seismitoad or Melmetal.

Wobbuffet (imposter) A -> B+

I didn't think Imposter is so great. People are prepared, teams are imposter-proof with PH setup sweeper for exemple.
The metagame is very limited and Fur Coat / Ice Scales, this metagame already tends to be wall, so no need for a Scarf imposter to manage these threats. It still good to PPstall or prevent abusive setup but... It isn't so good.

Mewtwo A- -> B

Mewtwo lose the combinaison of Spore + Octolock, and it hurts. It is walled by special walls like Umbreon. SF LO and PH isn't great in the actual meta. It get outspeed, vulnerable to Knock off and Spectral Thief, isn't bulky... You will have better options if you want a PH, or a special offensive pokemon.

Umbreon C -> B+

The best Special wall, it walls so many pokemons (Eternatus / Reshiram / Mewtwo / Kyurem-W). I think A is quite abusive, Mixed set could kill it, it is kinda passive, predictible... But it is a great wall support.

Snorlax B- -> B+

One of best special wall. Could run PH / Ice Scales / Prankster efficiently. It is more versatile than Umbreon but still passive.


Keldeo D -> B

A lot of people saw me play a Keldeo PH, and yep it is good. It has an interesting STAB coverage, a quite good SPA, it outspeed all thing at +1. Secret Sword STAB hurts more Umbreon and Snorlax than a Reshiram PH or a Mewtwo PH, force them to recover more often. Specs Keldeo in rain (set-up by a drizzle or Psea) hurts a lot with Water Spout.
I think it deserve a B rank, clearly an underestimated PH offensive set with a niche set of Specs rain abuser.

Here you can see how each Keldeo sets pressure the opponent team : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1087895296-dcycw4ki4ei4rdl5rev5fip006xkwq6pw

I have used PH Keldeo to great success, Water Spout, Eruption, Secret Sword, Quiver Dance was a pleasant surprise to most people, as Secret Sword bypasses Ice Scales, and Eruption hits Fur Coat Pokemon, and does strong nuetral damage against Golisipod who resists both of its STABs. Photon Geyser (Eternatus, Toxapex), Moongeist Beam (Lunala/Dawn-Wings) however I can see has its Merits

I agree with your B rank nomination:

I noticed that the Viability Rankings haven’t been updated for a long time so I would like to contribute for the first time. Some thoughts I have:

Zacian-Crowned S—> A+

This mon isn’t actually too hard to wall if you have good physical counterplay, especially since it’s now locked into its rusted sword item. Still its extremely high speed is respectable so I’d put it on par with Darm-gz and Zekrom.

Melmetal A+ —> A

This mon IS amazing but its overpopularity has made people come up with ways to defeat it and I often see it get overwhelmed by V-creates and Mold Breakers these days.

Aegislash, Ferrothorn B- —> C

These mons have really great typing but they actually don’t check much because of their lackluster bulk. For example Flash Fire Ferrothorn gets 2HKO’d by Band Intrepid Zeraora’s Bolt Beak, and Aegislash gets 2HKO’d by pretty much any decently strong neutral hit and gets 2HKO’d by specs refrigerate boomburst.

Snorlax, Umbreon to A

I know this is a pretty huge rise but these guys have good niches as the primary ice scales walls. Slapping one of these guys on your team lets you have a solid matchup verses the majority of special threats. Players are experimenting with ways to bypass these guys (close combat reshiram lol) so they might be becoming worse. Still deserves an A tier imo.

Doublade D -> B-

If you want to actually check stuff, this guy is better off than its evolution Aegislash since it can actually take decently strong physical hits with eviolite. It can use primordial sea/flash fire to cover up its fire weakness or fur coat to easily tank physical hits except strong V-creates or Earthquakes. It does hate getting knocked off however.

Keldeo D -> B-

Many players such as DF-Shock and superSkylake have experimented with Keldeo and I think it has shown its worth with its annoying poison heal quiver dance set or choiced primordial sea set. It is surprisingly annoying to deal with and can become a potent lategame sweeper.

I totally agree with Doublade to B-, as unlike Aegislash, it has strong Atk, which can allow it to hit decently hard with moves like Spectral Thief, and Body Press for consistent coverage to avoid being too passive. Fur Coat and Flash Fire make the best movesets potent and enable it to serve additional purported on the team to tank the fighting hits Melmetal, and even a Corviknight struggle with, such as Body Press from Cotton Guard Zamazenta-C. Doublade is literally its best switch-ins.

Further, I think immunity to Rapid Spin offers great utility, and if packing Prankster, Taunt works well enough to block Defog or Court Change, which pairs nicely with Haze, handling both offensive and defensive Pokemon on Balanced Teams nicely.

Not sure in Snorlax rising to A, I feel B+ is fine for it due to the PH set allowing to tank status, Knock Off, and set up without fear of Spectral. Photon is still an issue against Mewtwo, Solgaleo/Dusk-Mane, and Dawn-Wings/Lunala, regardless of Fur Coat or Ice Scales, and I would say it’s good, but not great (if using Ice Scales it really has an issue Vs physical moves). It also competes with Type-Null on non-PH Sets due to higher mixed bulk.

Umbreon, while passive works well blocking Prankster target moves, and tanks Photon with ease. STAB Foul Play can negate its low Attack issues (and means it can minimize Attack Vs opposing Strength Sap), while Knock Off doesn’t really care about damage and punishes Imposter. I think it also pairs nicely with Zacian-C so this way of the foe sends in Imposter Vs Umbreon, Zacian-C can tank Knock Off without item loss, and threaten with Play Rough. I like Umbreon, but I feel it’s a solid B, not A. Stray U-Turns, opposing Zamazenta/Zacian-C, and common Fighting-type moves make Mandibuzz more appealing at times due to immunity to Ground and nuetrality to Fighting/Bug.

 

[fififlutters]

Although these nominations may not be accurate by the end of the Shell Smash suspect, I have some interest in the metagame and would like to share my thoughts.

changelist

S Rank

S

Zacian-Crowned

S-

Eternatus
Zekrom

A Rank

A+

Darmanitan-Galar-Zen
Reshiram
Zamazenta-Crowned

A

Melmetal
Zamazenta

A-

Kyurem-White
Lunala
Seismitoad
Wobbuffet

B Rank

B+

Golisopod
Mewtwo
Snorlax

B

Barraskewda
Kyurem-Black
Solgaleo
Zacian
Zeraora

B-

Aegislash
Darmanitan-Zen
Dragapult
Excadrill
Ferrothorn
Gyarados
Incineroar
Necrozma Dusk Mane

Banish Zone

Toxapex

Important nominations:

Stays S
S -> S-

These two nominations go somewhat hand in hand as I believe that Zacian-Crowned is by far the best mon in the current metagame. Eternatus doesn't have as much variation by set as Zacian-Crowned does and despite its incredible role compression, only its defensive sets are really worth running. Offensive Eternatus has fallen off considerably in the past few months due to a rise in Ice Scales mons like Incineroar, Snorlax and Zamazenta-Crowned, which can make breaking a much harder job for Eternatus than it was prior to its rise, and FC / Prankster sets have had to deal with the onslaught of Reshiram currently in the metagame. Zacian-Crowned on the other hand, is more triumphant over Eternatus as the last two slots on Zacian-Crowned are basically free, allowing it to punish pretty much every check on the initial scout, and even if the movepool is discovered Zacian-Crowned can find its way through many teams such as with Strength Sap + Taunt, Spikes, coverage like Grav Apple / Power Whip, Fishious Rend, Bolt Beak and V-create. Adaptations to these moves have been seen in builds with a greater increase in Seismitoad and Golisopod usage, as well as more usage of Fur Coat Steel resists like Reshiram, and even with all of these adaptations Zacian-Crowned continues to shine more and more with its ever expanding set of options. Baton Pass + Strength Sap has recently gotten usage and is a prime team support member on more offensive teams that can boost certain Pokemon like Zekrom off the bat. All of this combined presence makes Eternatus feel bad compared to Zacian-Crowned, and thus I feel that Eternatus should drop as a result.

A+ -> S-

PH Spikes was already an incredible set but the recent innovations in Zekrom, especially in Smash meta make it a major standout offensive Pokemon. Galvanize + Shell Smash has recently been gaining traction as it bypasses the common ISword / PH answers like FC Eternatus, Seismitoad and Melmetal, which has been making the mindgames that involve Zekrom very difficult in tournament cases. Among the mentioned FC Melmetal, it dropping off also gives Zekrom a massive advantage in the current metagame as it no longer has to potentially deal with an inability to progress through teams without a spinblocking opponent or way to surpass Melmetal. Further adaptations to the meta also make Zekrom more preferred as an increase in Reshiram usage has made FC / IC cores much weaker than they were a few months ago - this directly effects other, more situational Zekrom answers like both Zamazenta forms. Overall this makes Zekrom even stronger than it was in the last update and I feel like this puts it on the level of Eternatus in terms of building strength.

A -> A+ (potentially S- if metagame trends continue to favour Reshiram)

Reshiram's surge in usage has been a massive one. In just a few short weeks the discovery of mixed Shell Smash sets and some other wallbreaking sets such as Desolate Land have turned otherwise perfect defensive cores into ashes. Whilst I do believe that Reshiram is getting prepared for much more heavily now, with increases in Primordial Sea Zacian and further increases in Seismitoad usage, it has risen significantly from where it was last as due to the discoveries of these potent mixed sets. More defensive approaches to Reshiram have also risen in usage as an attempt to combat the ever oppressive Darmanitan-Galar-Zen, such as FC and Prankster. These sets differ in approach to Eternatus as they tend to be considerably less passive due to Reshiram's much better two move coverage. With all of this, I believe that Reshiram is the best Pokemon in A+ and potentially could rise to S- given the conditions of the volatile metagame.

A+ -> A
A -> A-

Both of these have been touched on by the thread already but the general consensus around both of these mons are that they are outdated in the current metagame due to passivity issues or a general lack of bulk. Melmetal generally tends to be swapped out for Zamazenta-Crowned due to its better mixed bulk and the lack of viable Flying-types in the current metagame, therefore making Zamazenta-Crowned's lack of resistances less of an issue. Its offensive potential is also poor compared to it - Zamazenta-Crowned is very capable of offensive sets like Intrepid Sword and certain abilities in combination with Shell Smash that make it a much more threatening Pokemon on preview. Wobbuffet is here due to a general lack of need for usage - it doesn't really handle Shell Smash very well due to a rise in some Multi-Attack setup sweepers and the tight compression of defensive cores doesn't really allow for a spot for Wobbuffet that much.

B -> A-

This is a pretty significant rise but I do feel that it is justified given that the metagame has shifted away from FC Steels and is now much more centered around the Broken Moves (Fishious Rend, Bolt Beak, V-create and Shell Smash) all of which Seismitoad happen to be great resists of the common users of. Most Zacian-C and Zekrom sets have trouble dealing with Seismitoad from preview and these attributes in the current meta cannot be understated as it makes teambuilding significantly more lenient for their alternate sets, such as Grav Apple Zacian-C. Other sets alternate to FC have also started finding niches in BH, such as Shell Smash and Poison Heal as either role compressors on offensive teams or as alternate ways of walling common Pokemon that have adapted to FC through the use of Mold Breaker / Mold Breaker moves or a way of fitting a wincon that can decently handle Zacian-Crowned and Zekrom. Overall I think that Seismitoad has been a pretty well hidden threat for most of SS BH and deserves a significant rise.

B- -> B+

Snorlax rises in a similar way that Seismitoad has been - its continued splashability as an Ice Scales wall, PH wincon or as a Prankster user has been shown in tournaments through usage and through games. The standardization of Facade on non-PH sets also means that Snorlax is a pretty strong punisher of status moves, thus making it a pretty decent sponge throughout a match. Not too much to say on this one that isn't already obvious or hasn't already been said but this is a nomination I feel is pretty important.

A- -> B+

As of right now I don't really think that Mewtwo is particularly great - whilst it's not had anything detrimental happen to it, the increased usage of Snorlax as well as competition from Necrozma-Dawn-Wings / Lunala as a Shell Smasher and general wincon makes Mewtwo a difficult Pokemon to consider in the current metagame in my opinion, and as such I feel a small drop is warranted.

B- -> B

Exclusively a nomination for Shell Smash Solgaleo, ignore this nomination if Shell Smash goes (hopefully)

B+ -> B

Zeraora's place in the metagame isn't very well defined - it suffers from extremely heavy competition from Zekrom and doesn't have any major niche over it other than its Speed. Other than this continued dominance of Zacian-Crowned and a small rise in usage of alternatives such as Dragapult make Zeraora difficult to justify as an attacker in the current metagame. This is more effected by an increase of usage in the Unovan Dragons more than anything.

B- -> B

Zacian has been seeing small upticks in usage due to the massive usage of Reshiram and lack of coverage wielding Eternatus with its Primordial Sea sets, which utilize its unique typing in order to outright wall some of the best Pokemon in the metagame. The fall of FC Steels also makes Zacian a little easier to justify when building. However, it still stands out as only being a pretty niche option, and as such I'd only nominate it for a small rise to B.

B- -> whatever below B- idc

Toxapex doesn't really have a lasting niche in comparison to everything in B-, and ESPECIALLY when compared to Eternatus. It's just not that great; if I'm wrong about this you are free to reply but I'm sure nobody would mind this being taken a few steps downward.

 

[Chessking345]

Since the meta has changed so much rather than nomming individually I'm just going to post my idea of a VR of the current meta.

Save some space

A lot of these are similar to MAMP's discord thing which I think she will post soon.
S Rank

S

Eternatus
Zacian-Crowned
These two mons still define the meta. Both are incredibly fast, with Zacian-C being nearly impossible to pressure offensively while usually relying on at least two mons per team to defensively check it (along with another soft check like Poison Heal something). Etern is still an amazing blanket check to the meta that is difficult to actually pressure because like people have said before, most things that check it such as Zamazenta-C can't actually pressure it while most things that pressure it are slower and weak to Etern. In fact M2 and certain DGZs are the only mons that are not slower than Etern and can OHKO it (there are basically 0 viable scarfers that OHKO it). You can call this mon overprepped and dropping in usage but its dominating presence cannot be ignored and even whatever people are bringing for it aren't super solid counters either. Offensive Etern is definitely falling off though.

S-

Reshiram (From A)

Zekrom (From A+)
These two Dragons define the Balance meta right now. Poison Heal Reshiram and Zekrom are so versatile and threatening that they are able to put in work almost all the time in any matchup just by not getting worn down, gaining momentum, spreading status and Koff, and setting hazards. Reshiram is the weaker of the two but its burn spreading Lava Plume as well as its incredible defensive presence (Fur Coat Reshiram is the best Zacian-C counter if one needs to role compress) makes it super splashable (see second highest usage in OMPL). Zekrom is one of the most threatening and unpredictable mons right now, with Poison Heal sets being able to provide long term pressure while its offensive sets being very flexible with moves, abilities, and items (you only need Bolt Beak and a Dragon STAB). They basically have influenced metagame developments, such as Primarina, PSea Zacian, and Ferrothorn that are warped around reliably checking and pressuring them. I believe the creation of S- is necessary as Zekrom is clear cut above everything else while Reshiram is imo better than the two mons in A+, but I can take Reshiram in A+ as well.

A Rank

A+

Darmanitan-Galar-Zen
Zamazenta-Crowned
Not much have changed for these mons. DGZ is still one of the most threatening wallbreakers in the meta. Zamazenta-C is incredibly splashable (to the point where pdt has used the term "Zama-C slot") as a defensive blanket check depending on ability.

A

Kyurem-White (From A-)
Great rising wallbreaker that takes advantage of Etern, Resh, and Zek which are massive threats in the meta. Actually difficult to counter without Ice Scales which it can still break with stuff like broken Trick or just chip damage.
Wobbuffet
Always criticized but Imposter honestly isn't that bad as it can soft check every single breaker while scouting is actually a godsend in this meta where a lot of teams are dependent on several checks to mons depending on coverage (notably for Zacian-C and DGZ).
Zamazenta
Still a solid mon but faces competition from the other PHs. Cotton Guard is a strong late game wincon however as it can PP stall several Etern sets.

A-

Golisopod (From B+)
Super splashable mon because of how much it provides, slow pivoting that is threatening is great, hazards is great, Ground-resist is incredible, other resists are valuable, and it's actually very difficult to pressure this because it has a Shield move 99% of the time and the weaknesses are practically nonexistent in the meta outside of Bolt Beak, which it can usually just scout with Shield or U-turn on the Zekrom.

Melmetal (From A+)
It's just not as splashable as Zamazenta-C and the Fairy/Flying neutrality really means nothing in this meta right now. The special bulk drop and too low of a speed is just not as good.
Mewtwo
Sheer Force is still a strong breaker but losing Smash kinda hurts because it needed +2 Focus Miss to OHKO Scales mons. Poison Heal on the other hand is incredible as it can reliably threaten Etern while there aren't really great long term switch-ins because Wisp is a broken move. Psysurge unban could lead to some interesting sets too.

B Rank

B+

Lunala (From A-)
Suffering a lot when a ton of teams are carrying Snorlax/Umbreon/RegenVester etc. It just doesn't hit very hard and cannot punish its checks at all unless Trick. That being said while Specs sets are bad it does have great bulk to run some utility sets that can offensive pressure Etern. Garbage spinblocker though. RIP the amazing Smash Geist Photon CC set though that was actually good.

Seismitoad (From B)
Actually incredible mon because it blanket checks half the meta. A couple of options too ranging from classic FC to Bounce to PH. Ground STAB is really good and Scald is annoying to deal with as well. A sole weakness means a lot of physical attackers actually have to resort to running Grass coverage which hardly covers anything else outside of a Def drop.

Snorlax (From B-)
Poison Heal Lax is incredibly versatile with blanket checking special mons and acting as a strong pivot. Regular defensive sets are still good too with Facade being really strong and hard to punish. Appreciates Melmetal declining.

B

Barraskewda
Fish is still alright ig. Hard to check if you don't have Etern or big FC resist.

Darmanitan-Zen (From B-)
Really rising in usage because its typing is so incredible. Ton of useful resists to check Zacian-C Reshiram Mewtwo while its strong SpA and Psychic typing makes it an excellent defensive switch in to Etern. Psychic also does a ton to would be Lava Plume absorbers like Seismitoad and Golisopod. Atrocious atk makes it a great Sap absorber too.

Dragapult (From B-)
Not sure on this but its amazing speed and offensive typing leaves a lot of room for innovation with this mon. Adaptability is likely the only set but there aren't a lot of defensive switch-ins. Only problem is actually forcing switches as 120 100 is weak af.
Kyurem-Black
Kyurem-B is still Kyurem-B, basically worse Kyurem-W but has strong priority which is helpful for cleaning up Etern and some possibilities of innovation beyond that.

Zeraora (From B+)
It is basically outclassed by Zekrom. Outspeeding Zamazenta is nice and all but when everything is prepping for Zekrom this isn't breaking teams at all.

B-

Excadrill
Matches DGZ level of wallbreaking potential (probably even better) but garbage speed tier prevents it from being higher since it requires extensive team support. If it's Scarf it has no breaking power.
Gyarados
Decent mon overall. PH is pretty solid as it can soft check Zacian-C and Reshiram and Ground immunity is never bad.

Marshadow (From C)
Poison Heal has cemented itself to be solid from SL42's games as a great spinblocker and long term pressure source.

Necrozma Dawn Wings (From C)
You might as well go NDW for Specs sets compared to Lunala as its extra power really makes it actually threatening to offensive mons like the Dragons and Zacian-C.

Necrozma Dusk Mane

Primarina (From D)
Very solid Reshiram check and with Volt Absorb Zekrom check and with Ice Scales Kyurem check. Not passive either as dual STABs have great individual neutral coverage and utility with burns and SpA drops. Poison Heal is actually threatening if you give it setup (which you should otherwise Resh isn't pressured and Spectral is so bad).

Solgaleo
Both are similar so they should be in the same rank as Solg has a far better speed tier but NDM's extra power lets it do some nice stuff with Scarf. STAB Physical Photon is great to beat a ton of physical walls like Etern and Toad while Steels are pretty easy to abuse with two coverage moves or something (I mean it is really only Melm since Zamazenta-C takes chunks from Photon).
Zacian
Pretty much one-trick with PSea but it is the most versatile Fairy so you can slap some other abilities to play around with. Checks Resh checks Zama checks other stuff with Immunity abilities.

C Rank

Aegislash (From B-)
Garbage mon 0 bulk can't spinblock.

Ferrothorn (From C)
Bulk is really unfortunate since it cannot run both FC and FF at the same time.

Incineroar
Umbreon with burn immunity, also soft checks Zacian-C with nice Fire typing.

Keldeo (From D)
Better than the D rank and the PH set, while I never used it, doesn't sound bad with Fighting STAB to deter the common SpD mons in Lax and Darks while Scald is broken.

Lapras (From D)
Kinda similar to Darm-Z but worse typing. Scald is really good and Freeze-Dry is literal freeze machine. Checks Kyurems easily as well as Etern sets. Situation GMax Veil for some niche moments too. Biggest weakness is cannot run Ice Scales and Volt Absorb at the same time as well as having no room for utility moves but you can probably just spam Freeze-Dry for utility lol.
Steelix
Actually good because hard Zekrom check and STAB Earthquake but it can be taken advantage depending on ability. Bounce gets bopped by V-create, everything else lets Spikes go up, FF gets bopped by Mold Breaker stuff, PrimSea gets bopped by Wisp, all are weak to Earthquake too.
Umbreon
Much more passive than Lax but gets the job done as a special wall and Psychic immunity is useful for Psystrikes.

D Rank

Corviknight
Ground immunity and Flying-STAB with a Defog effect makes this mon useable.
Doublade
Nice bulk, maybe this is actually better than Aegislash.
Gastrodon (From UR).
Almost worse Toad but it's stronger Special bulk lets it check Reshiram + Zekrom together better (Relaxed Slug better than Sassy Toad), stronger attacks too.
:gourgeist-super:Gourgeist-Super (From UR)
Pretty solid spinblocker that has the coveted Grass-typing.
Hippowdon
Better phys bulk than Toad and no 4x weaknesses to play around.
Jellicent
Decent ghost and Water-type, not bad spinblocker.
Mandibuzz
Worse Umbreon but Fighting neutrality makes it a much better M2 check.
Milotic (From UR)
Pikachu
Idt anyone has actually made a decent Chu team but with fragile improofing maybe something like Tailwind could work.

Rhydon (From C)
Hardly any reason to use this over say Toad because Burns actually affect it.

Runerigus
I would say UR but compressing a Ground and a Zama check is alright.

Toxapex (From B-)
I have never seen this mon ever. You need all the abilities in the meta to make it work. Can't check Resh well bait for Zek can't check Etern well can't check Kyu-W well hardly checks Zac-C at all. Best it can do is check like Zacian and Zamazenta and Steels but honestly just use Etern or Golis.

Type: Null (From C)
When you can't run Poison Heal or have strong offensive presence Lax.

Tyranitar (From C)
I have never seen this mon ever. I don't even know what the sets for this are. Can go UR fwiw.
Vaporeon (From UR)
Two bulky waters that actually resist Fire. Milotic is faster but Vaporeon has slightly better bulk I think.

UR

Bisharp
What does he do.

Centiskorch
Haha Ground-neutrality.

Chandelure
Reshiram, Lunala, NDW.

Dusclops
Most passive mon like ever?

Escavalier
Haha Ground-neutrality.

Torkoal
Reshiram

 

[MAMP]

I think the VR is well overdue for an update, as there have been a number of bans and significant metagame shifts in the last 2 months. Here are some nominations:

RISES
Reshiram A > A+
Lately, Reshiram has felt like one of the best Pokemon in the tier. Defensive Reshiram sets have picked up enormously over the last month and during OMPL, and that's had a pretty noticeable impact on the metagame. Reshiram is just so incredibly versatile, possibly the most versatile Pokemon in the whole metagame, and it's really hard to effectively prepare for. Other people have advocated for this to go to S, and I don't think it quite deserves to go that far yet, but it's definitely close.

Darmanitan-Zen B- > B+
Darm-Z is really well-positioned at the moment. I like it a lot as one of the few Pokemon that can usually safely switch into Eternatus and actually force it out. Depending on its set, it can comfortably take on Zacian-C, DGZ, Kyurem-W, and Reshiram, and it has a pretty serious damage output. It also can run some more offensive sets like Desolate Land that are legitimately difficult to switch into. Really cool Pokemon overall.

Seismitoad B > B+
Compressing a really solid Zacian-C, DGZ, and Zekrom check into one slot is already a strong niche, and Seismitoad does a whole lot more. Seismitoad's strength really is a testament to just how absurdly good the Ground typing is in the current metagame. It's a bit inflexible but it's one of the best walls in the metagame at the moment and should move up to reflect that.

Snorlax B- > B+
PH Snorlax is a legitimately excellent Pokemon with a bunch of variants that all offer a lot of utility both offensively and defensively. Other sets like Prankster and Ice Scales are decent too, and Snorlax really appreciates how popular Eternatus and Reshiram are at the moment.

Necrozma-Dawn-Wings C > B-
I don't think anything has actually changed for Dawn Wings to warrant a shift, I just think it's underranked at C. Its speed tier is a pretty big drawback compared to Lunala, but the extra power lets it bust through stuff like Snorlax and Umbreon more easily and gives it enough of a niche that I feel like C rank undersells it.

Keldeo D > C
Keldeo is an important role player on rain teams, which have picked up a bit lately. I've been fairly unimpressed by sets like PH and Specs, I think they struggle a bit too much with Eternatus and don't offer a whole lot defensively, but I do think Keldeo is worth ranking higher on account of its place on rain.

Primarina D > C
Primarina is really sick at the moment. Switches into most variants of Eternatus and Reshiram, depending on its ability can also check stuff like Kyurem-W and Zekrom, and has real offensive presence. Its more offensive sets like Pixilate and PH Quiver Dance are quite underrated as well I think. It can be hard to fit onto teams sometimes, but it definitely feels out of place in D.

Gourgeist UR > D
This usually runs PH or FC. It spinblocks, checks Zekrom, and hits reasonably hard with Spectral Thief. Can be hard to fit on teams because it's not actually that bulky.

Gastrodon UR > D
It's Seismitoad but worse against physical attackers in exchange for taking on Reshiram a bit better. Not often worth running, but definitely still solid enough to deserve a rank IMO.



DROPS
Zacian-Crowned S > A+
Maybe a controversial one, but I just don't think this Pokemon is S rank material anymore. People are getting a lot better at building teams that aren't weak to it, and being unable to Dynamax and restricted in its item and ability choice makes it a little bit predictable and easy to lure. It also really doesn't appreciate the rise of Reshiram or the drop-off of Pokemon like CB Zamazenta and Zeraora. I think Zacian-C is just a step below Eternatus at the moment.

Melmetal A+ > A-
Melmetal at A+ has felt very out of place for quite a while. Melman Metal has had a pretty dramatic fall from grace lately, as his defensive sets are not as effective as they used to be and Fur Coat dragons and Zamazenta-C have eaten into his metagame share. I talked about this more in a post on the main thread, but basically Melmetal has gotten worse in just about every way, and he is certainly no longer the metagame juggernaut he once was.

Mewtwo A- > B+
I think Mewtwo is just a bit too unproven to be ranked as high as it is. I think this Pokemon is still unexplored and has a ton of potential, but it's really hard to justify ranking it so high when that potential hasn't been demonstrated. Most of the time when I run this Pokemon it seems really good on paper, but it struggles a bit too much against stuff like Snorlax and Zacian-C and isn't quite strong enough to get the kills you want.

Lunala A- > B+
Teams are prepared for Lunala's Specs set far better than they used to be and Knock Off has become really popular lately, so it doesn't just get free kills with Moongeist against most teams anymore. It's also really hard to find opportunities to get it in. I think bulkier sets like PH, RegenVest and Fur Coat are kinda cool because they can pretty consistently switch into Eternatus and force it out, but they really struggle to threaten a lot of teams in my experience.

Zeraora B+ > B
The rise in popularity of Eternatus and Fur Coat dragons more generally is awful for Zeraora. It feels like every team nowadays has some fat Reshiram or Eternatus and Zeraora really struggles to threaten either of those. It's still a pretty terrifying Pokemon to deal with because you have to play so cautiously with your electric resists or it's just going to find an opening and kill everyone, but against Pokemon like Fur Coat Eternatus that opening is extremely difficult to find.

Aegislash B- > C
It's cool that Aegislash can spinblock, but besides that niche it's pretty tough to justify it over other Steel types, especially with offensive Zamazenta getting less popular. Compared to the competition, Aegislash is slower, frailer, more passive, and has a bunch more weaknesses: it just doesn't stack up. Like last generation, its weaknesses to Knock Off and Spectral Thief really are a death sentence for it and it struggles so much to stay healthy. Always gives up a bunch of momentum too, because it usually has to recover a lot.

Tyranitar C > D
My experience with Tyranitar is that it just doesn't do very much. Defensively it's alright but often feels outclassed by Umbreon and it really gets abused by all sorts of common Pokemon. I've tried more offensive sets as well but found them to be really matchup specific, as its too slow and struggles too much against Eternatus, Zamazenta-C, and Melmetal to be consistent. I think Tyranitar might be underexplored, but as it stands I think this Pokemon is really hard to fit onto teams.

Rhydon C > D
Knock Off and Will-o-Wisp have become a lot more popular lately, Zekrom is increasingly running sets that take advantage of Pokemon like Rhydon, and teams are far better prepared for Ground-type moves than they used to be. I love Rhydon a lot, but I think it doesn't do very much against most teams and is easily shut down. My favourite Rhydon set right now is Desolate Land with Shift Gear and V-create, but it's a little bit gimmicky and slow to really be effective.

Type: Null C > D
Null is bulky as shit but its passive and prone to being worn down by Knock Off and status and hazards. I think this Pokemon is really overrated and usually doesn't do very much.

Toxapex B- > D
Toxapex kinda lacks a niche and really shouldn't have been ranked this high to begin with. It doesn't really consistently wall anything because it's weak to so many common offensive types and it's outclassed in most of what it does by Eternatus and other Water types.



UNRANKED
Bisharp
Centiskorch
Chandelure
Dusclops
Escavalier
Runerigus
Torkoal

 

[a loser]

Viability Rankings Update (May 19, 2020)

Change Log

Rises
Snorlax B- -> B+
Keldeo D -> C
Seismitoad B -> B+
Reshiram A -> A+
Darmanitan-Zen B- -> B
Marshadow C -> B-
Necrozma Dawn Wings C -> B-
Doublade D -> C
Incineroar D -> C
Primarina D -> C
Zacian B- -> B

Drops
Melmetal A+ -> A-
Zeraora B+ -> B
Aegislash B- -> C
Ferrothorn B- -> C
Toxapex B- -> C
Rhydon C -> D
Type: Null C -> D
Lunala A- -> B+
Bisharp D -> UR
Centiskorch D -> UR
Chandelure D -> UR
Dusclops D -> UR
Escavalier D -> UR
Torkoal D -> UR
Runerigus D -> UR

Newly Added
Vaporeon UR -> D
Milotic UR -> D
Gastrodon UR -> D
:Gourgeist-Super:Gourgeist-Super UR -> D

The last three posts do a pretty great job of explaining most of these changes so I'm not going to double down on their comments as I agree with most of them. The rules have changed since the last VR update, with the Forme Clause implemented, Shell Smash being banned, and Psychic Surge being unbanned. The meta is still ruled by Eternatus, the crowned dogs, the funny snowman, and the Unova Dragons despite these changes. Each of these mons are extremely powerful and versatile threats, both offensively and defensively.

Most notable changes:
Snorlax B- -> B+
Seismitoad B -> B+
Reshiram A -> A+
Melmetal A+ -> A-
We also cleaned out some of the stragglers in D Rank

View the council's votes here

 

[Champion Leon]

I am in actual tears of joy. Hiatus officially broken!

For the first time in... ever! Darmanitan-Z is rising! And we are not talking about the temperature! It is now far and above its (formerly) biggest rival— Toxapex, who wallows in C-tank, or for anyone who knows “C ya later!” Rank because it’s not that special!

As Toxapex continues to dissolve in a dirty polluted puddle of shame, I am so happy to see the peaceful Darmanitan-Zen rise above all of its similarities, and bring the Burn as it melts away the competition.

Packing a secondary Psychic typing, I am so glad to see it face off versus Eternatus and scoff at weak Strength Saps the likes of other Defensive Pokemon like Snorlax cannot help but hate. As SpA is its speciality, a Strength Sap just means nothing and Darmanitan-Z can actually remove the foes’ Atk with a permanent epic Burn, that doesn’t wear off after a switch. Imposter cannot Burn Darmanitan-Z, but Toxapex can not offer the same immunity to its Scald to that status. Womp Womp!

I am so happy to see it unanimously voted for the epic drop just like!

Now, I feel justified in returning to the metagame; seeing as how I have Championed the ultimate underdog out of obscurity and watched it rise in momentous triumph over all of its closest competition.

I am excited with the vote and agree with it all!
I will be so happy when both Darmanitan-Zen and it’s Galarian form can face off in a tournament battle for Zen supremacy. When that day comes, the world will be a better place.

—————

Anyways; I agree will all decisions besides the drop for Rhydon. It is useful for tanking Normal Attacks without being passive like the Ghosts that have a history of being passive, as they attempt to switch into PH Facade Snorlax, and such, with the sole exception being Body Press Doublade. So happy to see that rise!

Go Gen 8 Council! You are making steps in the right direction, removal and Psychic Surge means great things!

If I had to rate council:

God-Tier:
MAMP

You might be at the level of The Immortal

You are unsurpassed, equaled at best.

S+
a loser

* You are this generation’s E4 Flint
It is official!
You are now to be known as “a winner”

S
Funbot28

You are the most active in posting as of late and announcing... announcements!

You are now to be known as “Funbot9001”
Because your power levels are over 9000

Edit:

Former Council:

willdbeast you are Officially So overpowered that you had to leave the council, because you cannot be contained. You are like Primal Groudon and Rayquaza-Mega combined, you don’t have a power level that can be measured. You are Thanos with 2 Infinity Gauntlets, and anklets, and bracelets, and Heavy-Duty Boots!

You didn’t resign, you were just too good! You have your own calling and it is greater than anything else!

EDIT... The Sequel:
Now, I don’t know about you but I feel absolutely thrilled about all of my adoring fans’ responses to this post.

I know this will be instilled in the brains of my readers for the rest of this thread’s activity.

Thank you for the cheers, and screenshots/pastes to share with the uninformed. You fans are why I feel so happy to share my excitement!

Glad you all enjoyed and feel delightfully entertained, with just a smidge of cringe!

+

P.S.

 

[cityscapes]

time for my worst post on this site

know who else should be in god-tier? that's right, me, because i just went 5-0 in this ompl. thats right 5-0. this clearly must serve as the validation of skill i so desperately need. here are some funny memes i made to commemorate the occasion:

Hide

good update but drop zac-c to a+ btw. it's a good pokemon for sure but i feel like every team just has multiple soft checks and due to the diversity of counterplay there's no way zac can rly get past all of these without running an imposter weak team.

also etern feels a bit crunchy as well, idk if its just me but it just feels like this mon has a harder time consistently progressing in games than it used to. spikes and offensive both have pretty prevalent counters that they struggle to break past, and mons like lax are extremely annoying for him.

 

[Storm Eagle]

I know the VR was just updated, but I'd still like to make some nominations as I've been playing increasingly frequently lately. This is my first post making nominations this gen and as such I'm aware some of my nominations are going to be unpopular. I'm making these nominations solely based on my experience with the meta.

Drops

A -> B+
Wobbuffet is mediocre as hell right now, and Imposter is already losing popularity by the day. Most of its' recent use revolved around revenge killing setup sweepers with a Scarf. With Shell Smash banned, there's even less reason to use this thing. I find opponents just end up losing momentum really easily when trying to use Wobbuffet due to the abundance of pivoting moves, and it doesn't have great longevity in a lot of games.

D -> UR
I don't exactly see Wobbuffet in a good spot right now, and Pikachu's viability is questionable at best. Pikachu requires overwhelming support for a role which a lot of people already agree isn't exactly in a good place right now. While it can be threatening in the right scenario, the amount of preparation and support make it completely impractical in a realistic scenario. Pikachu speed ties everything and can die in one hit to just about anything, and the only way to get around that is with Nuzzle/Glare support.

Not to mention that Pikachu has virtually zero use anywhere. I do not believe it has a place on the VR when it's a non-presence on ladder and, as far as I can tell, is completely absent in tours as well. It's a bad mon that's not used and requires team support to not instantly die. I wouldn't even call it "high risk, high reward" when Imposter in general isn't great right now.

D -> UR
What does Lapras do that other Pokemon can't do better? As a Specially Defensive wall, other mons like Primarina do its job better due to having better type matchups. Based on what I've seen in this thread, it apparently has a niche use with it's Gigantamax...? I don't think it's worth using for that reason alone. It's cool tech, but most Gigantamaxes are pretty impractical in a realistic scenario. Lapras is a really strange mon who I don't think fills any actual niche. Maybe it has some use on Hail teams...? But that's going into gimmick territory. Lapras isn't a viable mon in my opinion and it doesn't really have anything particularly interesting about it beyond the Gigantamax.

B- -> C
Every time I've tried Dragapult I've ended up disappointed by its performance. It is not threatening in a meta with lots of Fur Coat/Ice Scales Pokemon, and lacks the damage output necessary to be threatening to most Pokemon. Without setup, and probably even if it did have setup, it's completely and utterly countered by Pokemon like both formes of Zamazenta (but ESPECIALLY Crowned), Melmetal, Solgaleo and Necrozma-DM, and bulky Water-types like Seismitoad and Primarina. I've even walled it with Eternatus before despite the Dragon-type weakness. It's a Pokemon whose strictly offensive yet lacks the raw power to threaten most mons.

C -> D
Toxapex is in that group of Pokemon that accomplish nothing beyond being really fuckin' passive. Like Type: Null or Mandibuzz. This fact alone warrants a drop. It's not helped by having a few common weaknesses. I really don't have anything else to say about it.

Rises

D -> C
Jellicent is a cool mon. It's special defense is solid and it's not quite as passive as it looks with decent power Scalds and it can spread burns easily. I've been trying out a stall team recently, and Jellicent has been pulling its weight surprisingly well. It's a pretty good spinblocker as well. Still, it's somewhat annoyed by Spectral Thief. I've used a defensive PH set which punishes Spectral Thief with Baneful Bunker.

(Base/Hero) A -> A+
Zamazenta is a very effective PH sweeper and its viability has remained strong throughout the past few weeks. It can be an extreme pain in the ass for most teams and can support the team in various ways, either by knocking off items, burning opponents, or by getting consistent chip damage. It's survivability is solid and is frequently one of the last mons to go down in my teams. It always puts in a ton of work even against teams that have a solid Zamazenta check.

B+ -> A-
Golisopod is a mon that's bulky but not passive, and has a convenient typing. It's not offensive by any measure, but can chip targets with STAB U-turn and can burn with Scald. Its' resists, solid physical defense, and unique typing make it worth pointing out for a nomination. I think it's better than people give it credit for.

Like I said, my nominations are probably going to be controversial. Feel free to give me your thoughts on my nominations.

 

[Test Rex]

Hi guys. I am bored and I want to contribute to the metagame so here I am writting. I am going to respond to our mate StormEagle's nominations and then add some more changes because I have seen the cool guys do that.

Wobbuffet is mediocre as hell right now, and Imposter is already losing popularity by the day. Most of its' recent use revolved around revenge killing setup sweepers with a Scarf. With Shell Smash banned, there's even less reason to use this thing. I find opponents just end up losing momentum really easily when trying to use Wobbuffet due to the abundance of pivoting moves, and it doesn't have great longevity in a lot of games.

Yeah I agree with this one. Right now imposter is not very good. Its true that shed shell or even lefties could give some bad times to defensive teams, but its not that difficult to play around that. Also point that poison heal is very common, which is hard for the imposters to play around. It is true that you can use toxic orb imposter but that is just a small niche and it will be a bad item for anything else -and its also cringe-. As a conclusion, imposter right now has to play a constant 50/50 with what items he is holding to be useful on its niche, and it somehow ends losing that 50/50 most of the time.

I don't exactly see Wobbuffet in a good spot right now, and Pikachu's viability is questionable at best. Pikachu requires overwhelming support for a role which a lot of people already agree isn't exactly in a good place right now. While it can be threatening in the right scenario, the amount of preparation and support make it completely impractical in a realistic scenario. Pikachu speed ties everything and can die in one hit to just about anything, and the only way to get around that is with Nuzzle/Glare support.

Not to mention that Pikachu has virtually zero use anywhere. I do not believe it has a place on the VR when it's a non-presence on ladder and, as far as I can tell, is completely absent in tours as well. It's a bad mon that's not used and requires team support to not instantly die. I wouldn't even call it "high risk, high reward" when Imposter in general isn't great right now.

I do not agree here. It is true that imposter pika is no more than a niche, and that it most of the time will be risking a 50/50 if he doesnt have paralysis support, but it's breaker power is undeniable, even enough to brust through non-inmunity imposterproofs. Yes, it is not that good and need support, but its worth to be mentioned in a D rank.

What does Lapras do that other Pokemon can't do better? As a Specially Defensive wall, other mons like Primarina do its job better due to having better type matchups. Based on what I've seen in this thread, it apparently has a niche use with it's Gigantamax...? I don't think it's worth using for that reason alone. It's cool tech, but most Gigantamaxes are pretty impractical in a realistic scenario. Lapras is a really strange mon who I don't think fills any actual niche. Maybe it has some use on Hail teams...? But that's going into gimmick territory. Lapras isn't a viable mon in my opinion and it doesn't really have anything particularly interesting about it beyond the Gigantamax.

I am not sure here. I have heard arguments supporting that lapras had a niche as the best kyuw counter and also not being passive against eternatus. I dont really know if this niche justifies using it. I guess it could fit on a team with a big kyuw weakness and some eternatus problems. Idk, I am blank here.

Every time I've tried Dragapult I've ended up disappointed by its performance. It is not threatening in a meta with lots of Fur Coat/Ice Scales Pokemon, and lacks the damage output necessary to be threatening to most Pokemon. Without setup, and probably even if it did have setup, it's completely and utterly countered by Pokemon like both formes of Zamazenta (but ESPECIALLY Crowned), Melmetal, Solgaleo and Necrozma-DM, and bulky Water-types like Seismitoad and Primarina. I've even walled it with Eternatus before despite the Dragon-type weakness. It's a Pokemon whose strictly offensive yet lacks the raw power to threaten most mons.

I agree here. Dragapult is a pokemon that in theory has to be be very good but on the field it lacks brute force to break even pokemons that it should be killing. I has the advantage of being very fast (yet not faster that daddy zacian-c) and that does give him a niche. While I would agree that it would be better in a C rank, I would understand that it stays in B- too.

Toxapex is in that group of Pokemon that accomplish nothing beyond being really fuckin' passive. Like Type: Null or Mandibuzz. This fact alone warrants a drop. It's not helped by having a few common weaknesses. I really don't have anything else to say about it.

Agree. It is way too passive while the defensive niche it fills is small and not hard to overcome with coverage. I dont think that this pokemon should be above primarina (or above jelli). There are just much better defensive water mons that fill physical and special walls roles, with better double typings.

Jellicent is a cool mon. It's special defense is solid and it's not quite as passive as it looks with decent power Scalds and it can spread burns easily. I've been trying out a stall team recently, and Jellicent has been pulling its weight surprisingly well. It's a pretty good spinblocker as well. Still, it's somewhat annoyed by Spectral Thief. I've used a defensive PH set which punishes Spectral Thief with Baneful Bunker.

I am not sure. I think jelly has some nice (and unexplored sets) like ice scales or pheal. I also understand that a mon shouldnt be ranked for what could be and do, without testing, and has to be tested on field to really see if it is useful and worth of using (stares roughly at dragapult). If I had to vote I would agree with it raising to C.

Zamazenta is a very effective PH sweeper and its viability has remained strong throughout the past few weeks. It can be an extreme pain in the ass for most teams and can support the team in various ways, either by knocking off items, burning opponents, or by getting consistent chip damage. It's survivability is solid and is frequently one of the last mons to go down in my teams. It always puts in a ton of work even against teams that have a solid Zamazenta check.

I agree. This is a pokemon with a good typing for the meta right now, and good offensive and defensive stats, paired with a good speed tier. Since you ony mentioned poison heal one, which is a very good set, I think its worth of mentioning the intrepid sword band set, which has a very good breaker power and is able to melt through foes (and counters) with the right coverage.

Golisopod is a mon that's bulky but not passive, and has a convenient typing. It's not offensive by any measure, but can chip targets with STAB U-turn and can burn with Scald. Its' resists, solid physical defense, and unique typing make it worth pointing out for a nomination. I think it's better than people give it credit for.

I disagree here. I indeed think that goli is very good and better than people think, but I feel that this mon is very good in the rank it is, paired with seismitoad or snorlax. Raising to A- would mean being at the tier of mewtwo or kyuw, and I dont really think that it fits there. In my opinion goli is well where it is.

Now my own stuff:

Drops:

A- to B+: Early gen this pokemon used to be very good and main meta but with the time this has been changing and he has been taking steps down the VR since then. His pure steel type doesnt really help him that much. Yeah its true that his phys bulk is very high, but it gets neutral STAB (or super) damage from a lot of the offensive mons of the meta (and some of the ones that are walled by him use to bring deadly coverage like v-create zacian-c).In addition, his sp.def is a bad joke, I dont think it needs much explanation. Last but not least, even having a good atack stat, I am not sure how but this mon ends being a passive wall most of the time-which is also caused by its low speed-.
As a conclusion this is a pokemon that having the option to use zamazenta-c (with a better mixed bulk and much better offensive presence) you just wont use melmetal. He doesnt really deserve that A- rank.

B to B- (or even less): The uses of this pokemon are no more than a niche, niches that are already filled by better mons. The set that I have seen most times, primal sea zacian, is just not that good, and defensively outdated (and arguably, offensively) by primal sea zamazenta-c. The only niche it has over zama is that it is able to hit first darmanitan-g due to better speed.

B- to C: I dont really understand why aegislash is ranked one step ahead of doublade. Aegislash's bulk, while good on paper, isn't enough when you are playing with it, while his pre evo can fill very nicely a physical defensive spot. Also worth of metioning how passive aegis is, while doublade can actually do some damage. I think that aegis and doublade should be at the same rank (or even aegis one less) and since I dont think either that doublade is B- material aegis steping down one rank makes sense for me.

C to D: This one is gonna be controversial. As I have said several times in this post ttar is, in my opinion, inside the ground of good on paper bad on field. It has a good atack stat that lets him not being passive, anddecent defensive stats, but this is not enough to get over his biggest weakness, his typing. His typing gives him small defensive niches, like lunala check or mewtwo, while it also open warship sized holes defensively, mainly because the fighning weakness, being fighning very spammed and supported by a water weakness (scald or rend are very spammed too).
Its true that he resists fire, but the two main fire users, resh and darm-g, can kill him too. Resh's dragon stab does neutral (and high if the ttar is not scales) while darmag more than often brings close combat or earthquake. A not worth of using mon that, in my opinion is paired in viability with bisharp, in D rank.

Raises:

C to B-: Incineroar has a good defensive typing that lets him be defensive while not being passive, since he is a pretty nice user of lava plume and knock off, both very good support moves. This dual stab makes him good when fighning steel and spreading status (and removing items). I would point that his most interesting (and unexplored) sets are ice scales, pheal and prankster. I have tested a lot this pokemon and the results have been very positive. I would even say that, as a fire type wall, it is paired with darmanitan-u-z, only getting a bit lower ranked than it doe to the fighning weakness (but it also resists ghost while darmuz doesnt).He can check solid kuyw and mewtwo, among others. I think this mon deserves something better than C, and I think B- is good for him. I even think that he could fit in B.

UR to D: I dont know why this pokemon got dropped. The defensive pokemon in D rank are mainly niche fillers and rune does fit good niches, and does it well. It has a good phy bulk while also having a not bad sp bulk. Its typing lets him inmunity check pokemon like zekrom, zeroara or zama and I feel that a pokemon that can solid check so many good mons shouldn't be UR. I would highlight the fur coat set, that lets him get the maximum advantage to his phy bulk. This mon deserves to be ranked.

Sorry for any grammar mistakes. luv u gamers.

Challenge: one shot for every time I wrote niche. Lets see if u can walk after reading this.

 

[Storm Eagle]

I do not agree here. It is true that imposter pika is no more than a niche, and that it most of the time will be risking a 50/50 if he doesnt have paralysis support, but it's breaker power is undeniable, even enough to brust through non-inmunity imposterproofs. Yes, it is not that good and need support, but its worth to be mentioned in a D rank.

Opinions about Pikachu and why I nominated it for UR

I've tried Pikachu on a team out of curiosity recently. I do try out a lot of mons and test new teams frequently. I was explicitly interested in building a team with Pikachu, and I built it with paralysis support. I know Chessking mentioned Tailwind support but I don't think that lasts long enough to be considered viable, and is easy to play around. I didn't end up actually using Pikachu for too long because the teams I made just weren't very successful. The times I did have success, I usually didn't credit it because of Pikachu. In the teams I used, Pikachu rarely had any actual use because it was always reserved for late game due to the support, and sometimes even when it was used it didn't see much success. While Pikachu won against matchups that Wobbuffet couldn't, I also lost against a lot more matchups. For example is Dynamax. Pikachu is the number one example of a mon that got fucked by Dynamax not being banned. Pikachu gets dogpiled by virtually any Dynamaxed mon and even if it Dynamaxes itself, it's base HP is low enough that it wouldn't even make a difference against most attacks. Meanwhile, even with Light Ball, unless you have a super effective attack, you're only gonna 2HKO most opponents at best if they're Dynamaxed.

Another problem is while Pikachu completely nukes any mon that's paralyzed, it's difficult to get paralysis off on most offensive mons. Intrepid Sword breakers are common, and you aren't getting off Nuzzle on those mons unless you already wall them, and the Pikachu matchup remains 50/50 for them. One of the main benefits of Imposter is to punish Intrepid Sword mons. If you're using Wobbuffet, you'll pretty easily force out a Zacian-C. I would not say the same for Pikachu. A lot of Choiced breakers like KyuW and GDZ can make it a huge pain in the ass to get the support needed for Pikachu to function.

One of the things that made Pikachu explicitly viable (but still mediocre) in Gen 7 was having better defensive mons and also having a lot more physical -ates which made Body Slam practical, instead of simply relying off Nuzzle and Glare. I've used Pikachu in both Gens and I had a lot more success in Gen 7 with Pikachu. In Gen 8, with defensive options being more limited and the only "good" physical -ate being KyuB, getting off paralysis is a lot more difficult. Not just more difficult in the sense of having a harder time crippling offensive mons, but also more difficult to improof and build around as well (While PH is still great, Magic Bounce is nowhere near as prevalent and Ground/Electric-types are limited).

The main reason I nommed Pikachu for UR is because I don't think the niche is viable. You're building an entire team around one specific Pokemon that, while it does have its niche in being extremely powerful, ends up falling flat due to a variety of factors like Dynamax. I very rarely found it rewarding enough to warrant building a team around it. Pikachu is a mon that's better in theory than in practice, and it's not difficult for the average team to beat.

I am not sure here. I have heard arguments supporting that lapras had a niche as the best kyuw counter and also not being passive against eternatus. I dont really know if this niche justifies using it. I guess it could fit on a team with a big kyuw weakness and some eternatus problems. Idk, I am blank here.

I don't think it's worth using for that reason alone. Checking KyuW isn't hard (Boomburst can't even 3HKO Ice Scales Snorlax without +SpA nature). Pressuring Eternatus is difficult but I would say Lapras is far from my first choice of mon, and SF Etern is still walled by Snorlax. I've heard Volt Absorb Lapras get mentioned in the OM Discord but the set is so awkward to the point of where I hardly take it seriously. Even with the Electric-type immunity Lapras doesn't like going up against PH Zek (Dragon Darts hurts, especially if it's boosted) or I-Sword Zera. Lapras itself is a mon with fairly average stats except for a slightly higher than average base HP. It's not good at any one specific thing that another mon can't do better.

I won't say Lapras doesn't work for the reasons people gave me on the OM Discord, but I'd hardly call it viable at just about every other scenario that doesn't involve KyuW or Etern. It's a weird mon who manages to have a very narrow niche that can be filled in part by other more viable Pokemon.

I am not sure. I think jelly has some nice (and unexplored sets) like ice scales or pheal. I also understand that a mon shouldnt be ranked for what could be and do, without testing, and has to be tested on field to really see if it is useful and worth of using (stares roughly at dragapult). If I had to vote I would agree with it raising to C.

I've been using Jellicent quite often recently. It's definitely better than people give it credit for, and it doesn't require that much support to thrive on its own unlike other mons that currently share its rank.

Also I agree with all of your noms except for one of them.

UR to D: I dont know why this pokemon got dropped. The defensive pokemon in D rank are mainly niche fillers and rune does fit good niches, and does it well. It has a good phy bulk while also having a not bad sp bulk. Its typing lets him inmunity check pokemon like zekrom, zeroara or zama and I feel that a pokemon that can solid check so many good mons shouldn't be UR. I would highlight the fur coat set, that lets him get the maximum advantage to his phy bulk. This mon deserves to be ranked.

One big problem with Runerigus is that it doesn't really do much that Hippowdon and Steelix don't already do besides spinblock. It's Ghost typing doesn't really help or hurt it beyond spinblocking. I think it was unranked mainly because it doesn't do anything that other ranked mons don't already do.

 

[Champion Leon]

I think a cool indicator of this metagames success is more activity. I understand many people just play PS!, or chat in Discord, but I feel like I keep trying to save a thread by contributing some activity.

I feel like we need more discussion on a variety of topics, as the distance grows between the most recent posts other people have made (over a week and half ago).

I deleted my post before this so I could bring more focus to what else people want to discuss here.

I know the BH CR is primarily on policy such as VR discussion, like after a suspect, but I am wondering if we can include more to keep our community from dwindling in interest, activity, and numbers.

Afterall, this thread was started about 4 months ago, and we are only 2 pages in, plus the OPs first few posts’ length means that much of the space was just the introduction to begin with.

Why not focus on other resources, such as posting usage stats, I.e. abilities, items, moves, and Pokémon themselves. We can easily collect these when they are documented here:

https://smogon.com/stats/

Monthly updates can be located here:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...y-usage-statistics-discussion-thread.3657197/

And you can even break it down by laddering lowest, middle, highest, etc.

Also, the OP mentioned a Setpedia coming soon, I know that would spark lots of discussion, as it can use sample teams and other standard sets including but not limited to analysis sets.

Funbot28 can you updates us on the status of the Setpedia, and if we can add stats to the resources OP?

That would serve as a time capsule into the development of the metagame itself as bans, and metagames shifts take place throughout and can document why something moved up, down, etc.

I.e. Before and after the DLC is released we can see what is most popular.

 

[Chessking345]

Post OMPL noms
S -> S-
A likely controversial nomination here, but Eternatus is slowly falling off in this meta and is no longer the mandatory defensive glue that every team should run. Notably, it has this issue where its defensive sets aren’t actually very threatening when its strongest options are all 8 pp. Offensive Eternatus is just very bad because it needs Recovery to role compress but then you are limited to 3 moves which doesn’t cover a lot. In comparison, it is definitely not on the same level as Zacian-C, being the best revenge killer, an incredible breaker with unlimited possibilities. Instead, it is more comparable to Reshiram and Zekrom, being very splashable mons that offer good defensive and offensive utility. Alternatively instead of dropping Eternatus raise Zacian-C to S+.
A+ -> S-
A+ -> S-
Reshiram and Zekrom are simply not comparable to the other mons in A+. Poison Heal is dominating the meta right now and Reshiram and Zekrom are simply the most effective Poison Heal mons, being insanely splashable and almost always doing something in any matchup. Reshiram boasts a great defensive typing, near unresisted STABs, and burn spreading allows it to be an incredibly effective hazard setter, with only certain mons like Magic Bounce Primarina being able to actually take on boosted STABs and not care about burns. Zekrom is just incredibly threatening with its Bolt Beak that there are so few consistent answers to it that can also afford Magic Bounce. Also worth noting is that trapping is incredibly bad in this meta and as a result there are very few moves that are immediately threatening to Poison Heal mons, with only Purify being remotely relevant. This is further noticeable on these two Dragons that don’t take much from standard moves on defensive mons such as Spectral, Anchor, Press, Scald, etc. Only Ground STAB and Etern can actually threaten them, but they aren’t immediately threatening either since none threaten an OHKO and have limited pp.
B -> B-
When was the last time you saw this mon in high level gameplay? It’s just outclassed by its counterpart who actually has immense initial power. I would say there are some possible explorations for this mon as I highly doubt that Boots Refrigerate is its only usable set. Regardless Kyurem-B is definitely not on the same level as Darmanitan-Z, Zacian, or Zeraora.
B- -> B
B- -> C
Solgaleo is one of the best speed control options this meta has outside of Zacian-C thanks to its ability to run Adamant and outspeed Zacian-C, great STABs, and enough attack to get the KOs it needs. NDM is completely outclassed by Solgaleo in anything that's not Band, which is a pretty garbage set anyways when it has 77 speed. Thus, there should be a clear ranking difference to show this.
B- -> C
Gyarados simply has very little usage and niche in this meta. The Poison Heal set is probably its best set but even boosted Fishious Rend doesn’t do enough to physical walls to pose a threat. Aerilate is interesting but is probably just worse. Defensively it is a decent soft check to stuff like Zamazenta-C and Zacian-C but it fails to properly check Poison Heal Reshiram and is a massive bait for Zekrom as Earthquake does not do enough.
C -> B-
Incineroar is an amazing role compressor by virtue of typing, checking both Mewtwo, Lunala/NDW, and Kyurem-W in the same slot all while ignoring burns from Reshiram and capable of taking Sunsteel Strikes. These traits make it one of the most splashable defensive mons IMO because it’s just capable of forming great cores with almost any mon.
C -> B-
This one comes mostly off its usage, as it is one of the most used special wall. Compared to Snorlax it is immune to Psystrike and compared to Incineroar it takes much less from Earth Power and is not locked into Boots.
C -> B-
Solely because of Reshiram’s dominance in the meta. Magic Bounce Primarina is the single best counter to Poison Heal Reshiram as it is the only mon to resist Reshiram’s dual STAB without an ability. Other bulky Waters or Fires can take chunks from Dynamax Cannon. It also checks Zamazenta and Zamazenta-C, as well as being a nuisance by itself due to Scald and Moonblast being quite punishing.
C -> B-
Similar to above, Steelix is likely the best Bouncer that counters Poison Heal Zekrom. It faces some competition from Ferrothorn but has much superior physical bulk and a handy immunity while Ferro takes chunks from boosted Bolt Beak. It does have an opportunity cost of overlapping with Zamazenta-C sets while being a huge special bait (Kyurem-W can OHKO through Dynamax).
C -> D
No one uses this at all, the bulk is just garbage and weakness to common moves like Knock Off is just really bad. I would much rather use Doublade than this mon if I wanted a Fighting-immunity.
C -> D
No one uses this, bulk is garbage, too many weaknesses, much rather use Eternatus or another bulky Water like Vaporeon that doesn’t have crippling weaknesses to Ground and Psychic.
C -> D
Again this mon has received 0 use and is pretty much outclassed by Incin or Umbreon defensively since 4x Fighting weakness and Ground weakness means they can break through. Offensively you have pretty terrible STAB coverage (and you don’t even have good Rock STAB) that leaves you walled by Zama-C, Zac, Zama, a lot of FC mons.
D -> C
Pretty solid and splashable because of its phenomenal typing, Ground resists are nonexistent in this meta apart from Golisopod so a lot of teams are vulnerable to EQ spam from Zacian-C and Darm. Corviknight fixes this problem so you can run single immunity ability and check these breakers pretty well, despite its poor bulk. Flying-STAB is pretty useful for forcing out Golisopod and Zamazenta who are otherwise good Steel-type switch-ins.
D -> C
It can perform a lot of Seismitoad’s roles similarly, being a worse Zekrom check and a better Reshiram check. While Seismitoad does offer better speed and offenses Gastrodon really shouldn’t be so much worse that there are basically 5 subranks in between them.
D -> C
A reasonable substitute for Umbreon. It trades the Kyurem-W matchup and Volt Switch weakness for being able to absorb all the Fighting-type coverage moves like Focus Blast and Close Combat which are rising in popularity to beat Umbreon, Incineroar, and Snorlax. This allows it to basically hard counter a lot of Lunala and Mewtwo sets (Sheer Force Mewtwo for example can 2HKO Umbreon with Focus Blast, which means Umbreon has to either rely on Dynamax or a 51% to dodge at least 1 Focus Blast (70% if the first one hit) all the while hoping to not run into Nasty Plot).
E: UR -> D
Great Fire resist that serves as a pretty nice pivot against Darm, Resh, Kyu. Strong Rock STAB damage actually forcing Resh out is neat too.
Stuff I’m on the fence on are to A and to B+

I'll drop teams in the main thread later.

 

[willdbeast]

Speed tiers have (finally) been updated!

Updates mostly reflect the VR changes with mons that aren't viable being removed and new ones added, with a few different variations for mons added too where there were glaring omissions as pointed out by some posters. As always if you have any suggestions we're open to them!

Balanced Hackmons Speed Tiers​

Very Speedy:

Speed		Pokemon	Base Speed	Nature	EVs	IVs	Boosts
842		Dragapult	142	Positive	252	31	2
750		Zamazenta	138	Neutral	252	31	2
742		Barraskewda	136	Neutral	252	31	2
710		Zamazenta-Crowned	128	Neutral	252	31	2
698		Marshadow	125	Neutral	252	31	2
634		Kyurem-White	95	Positive	252	31	2
631		Dragapult	142	Positive	252	31	1
630		Keldeo	108	Neutral	252	31	2
618		Zacian	138	Positive	252	31	1
612		Reshiram	90	Positive	252	31	2
578		Kyurem-White	95	Neutral	252	31	2
558		Reshiram	90	Neutral	252	31	2
558		Zekrom	90	Neutral	252	31	2
550		Excadrill	88	Neutral	252	31	2
522		Gyarados	81	Neutral	252	31	2
506		Necrozma Dawn Wings	77	Neutral	252	31	2
506		Necrozma Dusk Mane	77	Neutral	252	31	2
477		Snorlax	30	Neutral	252	31	4
475		Kyurem-White	95	Positive	252	31	1
459		Reshiram	90	Positive	252	31	1
459		Zekrom	90	Positive	252	31	1
453		Excadrill	88	Positive	252	31	1
442		Tyranitar	61	Neutral	252	31	2
439		Lunala	97	Neutral	252	31	1

Quite Speedy:

Speed		Pokemon	Base Speed	Nature	EVs	IVs	Boosts
434		Zacian-Crowned	148	Positive	252	31	0
433		Kyurem-White	95	Neutral	252	31	1
423		Zeraora	143	Positive	252	31	0
421		Dragapult	142	Positive	252	31	0
418		Reshiram	90	Neutral	252	31	1
418		Zekrom	90	Neutral	252	31	1
412		Excadrill	88	Neutral	252	31	1
412		Zacian	138	Positive	252	31	0
412		Zamazenta	138	Positive	252	31	0
408		Barraskewda	136	Positive	252	31	0
405		Darmanitan-Galar-Zen	135	Positive	252	31	0
395		Zacian-Crowned	148	Neutral	252	31	0
394		Eternatus	130	Positive	252	31	0
394		Mewtwo	130	Positive	252	31	0
390		Zamazenta-Crowned	128	Positive	252	31	0
385		Zeraora	143	Neutral	252	31	0
383		Dragapult	142	Neutral	252	31	0
383		Marshadow	125	Positive	252	31	0
378		Golisopod	45	Neutral	252	31	2
375		Zacian	138	Neutral	252	31	0
375		Zamazenta	138	Neutral	252	31	0
371		Barraskewda	136	Neutral	252	31	0
369		Darmanitan-Galar-Zen	135	Neutral	252	31	0

Moderate Speediness:

Speed		Pokemon	Base Speed	Nature	EVs	IVs	Boosts
359		Eternatus	130	Neutral	252	31	0
359		Mewtwo	130	Neutral	252	31	0
355		Zamazenta-Crowned	128	Neutral	252	31	0
349		Marshadow	125	Neutral	252	31	0
346		Keldeo	108	Positive	252	31	0
318		Snorlax	30	Neutral	252	31	2
317		Kyurem-Black	95	Positive	252	31	0
317		Kyurem-White	95	Positive	252	31	0
315		Keldeo	108	Neutral	252	31	0
306		Reshiram	90	Positive	252	31	0
306		Zekrom	90	Positive	252	31	0
302		Excadrill	88	Positive	252	31	0
293		Lunala	97	Neutral	252	31	0
293		Solgaleo	97	Neutral	252	31	0
289		Kyurem-Black	95	Neutral	252	31	0
289		Kyurem-White	95	Neutral	252	31	0
289		Silvally	95	Neutral	252	31	0
279		Pikachu	90	Neutral	252	31	0
279		Reshiram	90	Neutral	252	31	0
279		Zekrom	90	Neutral	252	31	0
275		Excadrill	88	Neutral	252	31	0
271		Wobbuffet	33	Positive	252	31	1
270		Darmanitan-Galar-Zen	135	Positive	252	31	-1
261		Gyarados	81	Neutral	252	31	0
261		Milotic	81	Neutral	252	31	0

Slow:

Speed		Pokemon	Base Speed	Nature	EVs	IVs	Boosts
259		Mandibuzz	80	Neutral	252	31	0
253		Necrozma Dawn Wings	77	Neutral	252	31	0
253		Necrozma Dusk Mane	77	Neutral	252	31	0
247		Seismitoad	74	Neutral	252	31	0
246		Darmanitan-Galar-Zen	135	Neutral	252	31	-1
233		Corviknight	67	Neutral	252	31	0
229		Umbreon	65	Neutral	252	31	0
229		Vaporeon	65	Neutral	252	31	0
221		Tyranitar	61	Neutral	252	31	0
219		Aegislash	60	Neutral	252	31	0
219		Jellicent	60	Neutral	252	31	0
219		Primarina	60	Neutral	252	31	0
219		Lapras	60	Neutral	252	31	0
219		Incineroar	60	Neutral	252	31	0
217		Type: Null	59	Neutral	252	31	0
209		Darmanitan-Zen	55	Neutral	252	31	0
207	:Gourgeist-Super:	Gourgeist-Super	54	Neutral	252	31	0
204		Reshiram	90	Positive	252	31	-1
193		Hippowdon	47	Neutral	252	31	0
189		Golisopod	45	Neutral	252	31	0
186		Reshiram	90	Neutral	252	31	-1
181		Wobbuffet	33	Positive	252	31	0
179		Rhydon	40	Neutral	252	31	0
177		Gastrodon	39	Neutral	252	31	0
169		Doublade	35	Neutral	252	31	0
169		Toxapex	35	Neutral	252	31	0
167		Melmetal	34	Neutral	252	31	0
165		Wobbuffet	33	Neutral	252	31	0
159		Runerigus	30	Neutral	252	31	0
159		Snorlax	30	Neutral	252	31	0
159		Steelix	30	Neutral	252	31	0
139		Ferrothorn	20	Neutral	252	31	0

Very Slow:

Speed		Pokemon	Base Speed	Nature	EVs	IVs	Boosts
125		Corviknight	67	Negative	0	0	0
112		Aegislash	60	Negative	0	0	0
112		Jellicent	60	Negative	0	0	0
103		Darmanitan-Zen	55	Negative	0	0	0
101	:Gourgeist-Super:	Gourgeist-Super	54	Negative	0	0	0
89		Hippowdon	47	Negative	0	0	0
85		Golisopod	45	Negative	0	0	0
74		Gastrodon	39	Negative	0	0	0
67		Doublade	35	Negative	0	0	0
67		Toxapex	35	Negative	0	0	0
65		Melmetal	34	Negative	0	0	0
58		Runerigus	30	Negative	0	0	0
58		Snorlax	30	Negative	0	0	0
58		Steelix	30	Negative	0	0	0
40		Ferrothorn	20	Negative	0	0	0

 

[Champion Leon]

Speed tiers have (finally) been updated!

Updates mostly reflect the VR changes with mons that aren't viable being removed and new ones added, with a few different variations for mons added too where there were glaring omissions as pointed out by some posters. As always if you have any suggestions we're open to them!

Maybe add a +2 Speed for Zacian-Crowned, so it isn’t outsped by other +2 Speed Pokemon (Shift Gear sets). I know it’s not the most commonly used move, since it often has 4 Attacks, but Shift Gear allows it to hit first and boost its Attack, and at least due to Spectral Thief.

Everything else looks A-Okay in my book.

Edit: What about negative nature Rhydon?

 

[a loser]

New Pokemon (upon DLC 1 Release)
Blissey
Chansey
Magearna
Marowak-Alola
Urshifu (both Formes)
Zarude

With the release of the first DLC, we've added in a new category for the Viability Rankings. While there are more "New Pokemon" that aren't included here, we have chosen these mons since they are basically all but guaranteed a spot on the VR once the meta has a chance to develop.

We're excited to see how the meta changes with these new additions and encourage everyone to try out these new and returning mons. Once you get an idea of how they perform in the meta, feel free to nominate them for a spot on the VR!

 

[MAMP]

I guess I might as well get us started on this:


NEW/RETURNING MONS
Chansey UR > S
lol

Blissey UR > S
Blissey is largely worse than Chansey, but it seems disingenuous to me to rank a 255 HP Imposter any lower than S.

Magearna UR > B
I don't think we've quite figured out Magearna in this metagame yet and I wouldn't be surprised to see it go up. Doom Desire is cool but inconsistent, Pixilate sets are good but I actually often feel like I prefer Primarina for those because it offers more defensive utility by resisting Fighting and checking Reshiram, and purely defensive sets feel hard to justify over the far bulkier, faster, and usually more threatening Zamazenta-C. Still a good mon but kinda feels like it lacks a meaningful niche right now, and I find it difficult to fit onto teams.

Marowak-Alola UR > D/UR
Hates how popular Knock Off is, hates that defensive mons don't run min speed that much anymore so it doesn't outspeed them, hates that the popularity of DGZ means that most teams have a check to it without even trying. Trick Room has potential but I've yet to build or see a decent TR team.

Tangrowth UR > D
Solid Zekrom/Excadrill/Skewda counter, but it feels hard to justify over Gourgeist a lot of the time and the niche that it fills is still a pretty small one. Apple Acid would be really cool if not for the fact that like 80% of the tier resists grass.

Urshifu-Single-Strike UR > D
PH spin is alright, I've been unimpressed by every other set I've tried. Neither of its STABs are particularly spammable and most of the sets it can run are outclassed by Zamazenta. Has a decent UnburdenDrum set, but I feel like that strat as a whole is very inconsistent.

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike UR > C
Maybe the best Swift Swim mon in the tier, but besides that this feels pretty outclassed in a lot of what it does. Struggles against Imposter and FC Dragons (except ram).

Zarude UR > D/UR
You can run FC to beat Zekrom and psychics and the speed tier on this is really cool, but I feel like what this mon does is really narrow. It gets owned by random coverage/special Zek a lot, and it's hard to run a set that beats all the stuff it wants to beat but also doesn't get completely abused by Reshiram and Etern and stuff. Really held back by having like 10 weaknesses.

OLD MONS
Rises
Zamazenta-Crowned A+ > S
This is the best defensive Pokemon in the metagame by a strong margin. Incredibly flexible, can beat whatever it wants, fits onto basically any team, even has solid offensive sets to keep you on your toes. In the later weeks of OMPL Zama-C approached 100% usage and I don't think much has changed for it since the DLC dropped.

Zekrom A+ > S
PH Zekrom has no viable defensive counterplay, and that's just one of dozens of viable sets. Whose idea was this

Barraskewda B > B+
Etern and FC Melmetal are both dropping off, and teams are increasingly relying on Imposter, PH Zek, and Zama-C to check mons like Barraskewda, which are far less consistent at it. It also gets Flip Turn now, which is better than it seems: you can get fish in against DGZ and put yourself in a win/win situation like what Beedrill did to MMY last gen, it chips Zama-C nicely, and it gives you a great way to scout Dynamax, which is usually Skewda's greatest weakness.

Lunala B+ > A-
Bulky Rapid Spin Lunala sets are dope and really well-positioned currently, especially PH Hex + Nuzzle/Wisp. Lunala also benefits from the way that teams are leaning harder on Imposter to check various breakers because Imposter is definitely not switching into Moongeist.

Drops
Eternatus S > A+
Like Gurp said in that one shitty post with all the memes in it, Etern can't really make progress against a lot of teams. Defensive Etern struggles against Imposter, offensive sets have a hard time against Zama-C. It's still great, but S rank way oversells it and I feel like I prefer Zekrom or Reshiram as a bulky Dragon these days.

Melmetal A- > B/B+
:( poor melman

 

[a loser]

I'll join in

Noms for the new mons
Blissey UR --> A
I think Blissey is going to do well in this metagame, especially because it is bulky enough to not be tied down to Scarf sets like Wobbuffet was, but I definitely don't think it will be as impactful as Chansey. Also, the fact that it can't really bluff other abilities from team preview makes it more one-dimensional. Still, this thing's HP is really nice.

Chansey UR --> S
The shaky improofing we have enjoyed this generation is long gone. I think Chansey's presence is going to shift all the Teleport-happy walls back to trapping variants, or else force builders to find other ways to abuse Imposters of things like Umbreon and Eternatus.

Magearna UR --> B
I agree that Magearna's role in the meta isn't quite solidified yet, but it is definitely one of the better mons of the new and returning bunch. It is great to have another special attacker and SpinBoom Pixilate is looking solid already. Only issue is Magearna doesn't really want to run Anchor Shot but not doing so makes it Imposter-bait.

Marowak-Alola UR --> D/UR
I was really excited to see Marowak-Alola back, but the meta isn't as kind to it as I'd hoped it would be. I agree with all of MAMP's points. I tried using this mon but it really is slow and sadly can't pressure Eternatus and it is just really hard to find opportunities for it to excel.

Slowbro UR --> D
It never hurts to have another bulky Water-type. Slowbro's Psychic-typing is kind of awkward with Knock Off and Spectral Thief everywhere, but it makes for a decent sponge for Zamazenta, especially Photon Geyser variants.

Tangrowth UR --> D/UR
I haven't used this mon yet but I do think it has potential. It is nice to have another Ground-type resist but I can't really see myself rushing to use this when Gourgeist is also an option.

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike UR --> D
I haven't used this myself but some sets I have seen have potential. It looks like a good rain abuser but still lacks the ability to break through Eternatus. It definitely needs more time for its role to develop in the meta. Could be an interesting PrimSea mon.

Urshifu-Single-Strike UR --> C
I've used the PH Spin set with Knock Off and Low Kick and I'm a fan. The special bulk is definitely lacking but I think its Dark typing really differentiates it from Zamazenta, who can't reliably pressure Ghost-types and is susceptible to Pranksters.

Zarude UR --> UR/D
I have briefly tried out Ice Scales on this mon but I don't have a good reason for using that ability really. Dark/Grass is nice for spinning and Spore immunity + Ground resist, but the typing seems so easy to abuse. I'd like to see more people explore with this mon but for now I can't see it doing too much.

Existing mons, a rise and some falls
Zamazenta-Crowned A+ --> S
Zama-C is extremely splashable. It can put in work with almost any ability and even defensive sets can pack a surprise Close Combat. It is really hard to build a team without this mon ending up on it.

Wobbuffet A --> UR/D
Wobb's drop is obvious, but I do wonder if it should hold a place on the VR for its niche on Imposter spam teams. This isn't much of a niche though so it should probably drop from the rankings completely.

Melmetal A- --> B+
I agree that Melmetal continues to fall, but that doesn't mean it should be slept on. I think Anchor Shot sets with Knock Off and/or Spectral Thief are still pretty solid thanks to its great physical bulk.

Aegislash C --> D/UR
I really, really struggle to think of how this mon fits on teams. I think we are doing it a disservice by keeping it around on these rankings because it really doesn't do much. FF sets just die to random coverage and it is even more Imposter-bait with Chansey back. I can't think of why I would want to use this instead of Doublade.

Some other mons that I'm really not sure about but think could/should change a bit
B Rank
Kyurem-Black
Zeraora
Both of these mons are in an awkward spot. Zeraora was already on a downward slide and the fact that you can basically switch Imposter into any set and force it out is not good for it. I find it really hard to fit Kyu-B on teams, despite its strength, but at least it has the ability to keep Imposter from coming in freely.

B- Rank
Dragapult
Gyarados
Marshadow
Pult and Marshadow are interesting because they are able to hit Imposter super effectively and even run some self-improof sets. I think mixed Adaptability Dragapult has a decent niche in the meta, one of the few mons able to out-pace and threaten FC Eternatus when packing Draco Meteor, and Poltergeist is a fun new toy for it. I'm not sure how Gyarados will be impacted by Imposter now, but it will likely be forced to run moves like Wisp on PH sets, which is subpar for Gyara imo. Marshadow could be in a slightly better place thanks to it being completely self-proof, unlike Multi-Attack sets from guys like Zekrom.

 

[Champion Leon]

One mon I think people are forgetting about is Excadrill.

With Marowak, comes Bonemerang, which pairs nicely with its old toys in Storm Throw, rounding out a Technician moveset. I think it could move up to B, as a wall breaker.

I fear Shift Gear / Intrepid Sword Sweeper sets may be too easy for Imposter to take advantage of, but I can for certain say it is a much more powerful Wallbreaker due to Tech Bonemerang, as it can bluff another ability (no giveaways like Mold Breaker or Intrepid Sword) and thus it could look like Tough Claws, or another ability.

Haze / Spectral / Topsy / Imposter / Unaware make ISword less appealing than Technician’s flat boost.

Excadrill @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Bonemerang
- Gear Grind
- Storm Throw / Shift Gear
- Bolt Beak / Storm Throw

Calcs

- 1HKOS Vs Walls
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Excadrill Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 468-552 (98.7 - 116.4%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Excadrill Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 304-360 (94.4 - 111.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golisopod: 356-420 (100.5 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Excadrill Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Snorlax on a critical hit: 514-606 (98 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Excadrill Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon on a critical hit: 338-398 (85.7 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Zamazenta-Crowned can serve a similar role, but it doesn’t pack the necessary coverage to keep Zekrom, Reshiram, and Eternatus from safely coming in, due to a lack of Ground STAB, while Excadrill does the necessary damage it needs to KO with Storm Throw, while providing the needed power behind Bonemerang.

Excadrill also cannot be paralyzed by Nuzzle, and can come in on Choice sets packing Bolt Beak, minor perks, but definitely noticeable. I also like Excadrill’s speed tier, if it goes Jolly it will outspeed neutral speed Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyurem-W/B (Gear Grind is a 1HKO), and Jolly Gyarados.

 

[avyrie]

First time writing for the VR, i’ll try my best at explaining every mon :)

to A / to S-/S
First look onto the VR, Darm-GZ and the Unova Duo are both on A+. In the current meta flooded with balance teams plus the addition of Chansey/ Blissey as bulkier Imposters made DGZ a overall worse pick right now than the months before, given its fragility and big weakness to Stealth Rock. However, it is still one of the heaviest hitters in the tier with access to STAB V-Create, and the Rocks weakness can be combated with Magic Guard. Therefore, a small drop to A for would be considerable.

However, I still think that it deserves A+ given its sheer power, but should be placed below and as the duo gives a phenomenal amount of team support. Thus, I’m alternatively nominating the two to S-, as they are capable of running a huge variety of sets, ranging from Fur Coats given their Electric/ Fire resists, to Intrepid Sword/ Desolate Land wallbreaking ones capable of tearing through unprepared teams. They can even run mixed Draco Meteor/ V-Create sets respectively for surprise elements. The most notable sets are also none other than Poison Heal variants, having great longevity and bulk while still very threatening to defensive teams after a single boost. Looking at the current S-Rank mons and , Zekrom and Reshiram almost on par with the two and can potentially even rise to S.

to S
This has been brought up a couple of times before, and I definitely agree with the motion here. Rising steadily in usage, the shielded dog is blessed with a fantastic defensive typing, excellent 92/145/145 bulk, good speed and attack, and isn’t locked into an item like it’s sword counterpart does. I see it similar to Registeel in USUM BH, being able to check a wide variety of threats in one slot, as well as providing team support like hazards control, trapper etc. It’s incredibly versatile, just like Zekrom and Reshiram, being capable of running Prankster for anti-setup, Magic Bounce for hazards/ being annoying, Regenerator for momentum and utility, Primordial Sea for its Fire weakness and to check Reshiram/ DGZ, Fur Coat for most physical attackers, Ice Scales for most special attackers, and even Levitate to check breakers with ground coverage. It can even deal respectable damage thanks to its 130 attack stat. Overall a very well-rounded defensive mon capable of easily fitting into teams as a defensive backbone and does not require much team support to do so. Definitely some S-Rank material right here.

to B+
Umbreon is an excellent Ice Scales user and Poison Heal user, being able to check common special breakers such as Mewtwo and Lunala, and even Kyurem-White with Ice Scales. It functions as a good spinner with the Dark typing to scare away Ghost types, and has a good spammable STAB in Knock Off/ Foul Play to prevent it from being too passive. It has good physical bulk for it to run Fur Coat sets too, so it isn’t an auto-lose to threats like DGZ physically, though it is not as effective as Ice Scales sets. It still has a hard time against them though, and the weakness to U-Turn hurts. Nominating to B+ as I feel it’s pretty much on par with Golisopod, Seismitoad and Snorlax in efficiency of checking offensive threats.

to B
I found myself fitting Primarina onto a lot of my recent teams, thanks to its ability to check Reshiram and Zekrom/ Kyurem-White in one, whether it is Volt Absorb for Zekrom or Ice Scales for Kyu-W (Boomburst does 64% to non-Ice Scales ). It’s also not passive at all thanks to its good Special Attack and spammable STAB combo that serves it well versus the meta right now. However, its mediocre Defense stat leaves it extremely vulnerable to physical threats, and it is over-reliant on Ice Scales to check special threats: even Reshiram can 2HKO it with Max Flare and a boost or two. Nonetheless, the Tao Trio is really hard to check for most teams, and the ability to check them is appreciated by many teams.

to B
Similar to Primarina, it is able to check Kyurem-White, Reshiram, Mewtwo and Lunala all in one, making it a potent Ice Scales user. It also has good Attack and STAB Knock Off to make it less passive. I also see potential in RegenVest sets as an alternative special wall with better utility options, but it hates the Rocks weakness that the loss of Boots gives it.

Maybe I’ve rated Incineroar and Primarina a bit too high for the standards of this VR (it looks way more preservative compared with other tiers’ VRs where there’s like 10 A ranks), but I strongly feel the ability to check the strong special breakers is valuable to a lot of teams. Feel free to argue against my points, I’m still a first time writer on the VR :)

 

[cityscapes]

marowak (kanto) to d

Poggas! (Marowak) @ Thick Club
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Earthquake
- Strength Sap
- Bolt Strike

very cool mon that can do huge damage if given opportunities. coverage wise you're only walled by grasses which are pretty rare and very exploitable, and ofc most of the meta is still weak to ground. the set has a hard time finding spots to come in but it benefits hugely from stuff like imposter support and teleporters, helping it find an opportunity to sub up and break holes in the opposing team. imposter is a bit annoying if they come in at +2 and win the speed tie with sub, but its still a pretty weak mon with no club so you shouldnt have much trouble walling it. marowak is also notably a great dynamax user cause you keep club + sword boost and max quake/lightning arent bad at all.