BH Balanced Hackmons

Among the things to suspect test, we have Dynamax, Darm-GZ, Intrepid Sword, V-create, Fishious Rend, Bolt Beak, Octolock.
My quick thoughts on this list:

-Dynamax: While it can be annoying to deal with, Dynamax is a staple of Gen 8 and it would feel wrong without it. Maybe set a cap though, ala mega evos.
-Darm-GZ: Eh, idk. They seem like a powerful sweeper force, but there are many powerful sweeper forces in the meta who are fine; If we nerf their kit, however, specifically V-Create, they can be introduced into gen pop with little to no problem.
-Intrepid Sword: Not only is this the signature ability of sword doggo (and they would feel wrong without it), but there's also similar abilities like Speed Boost and Dauntless Shield. While Attack boosting per turn is obviously better than some Abilities for sure, it might not be banworthy, but idk.
-V-Create: Kill it with fire.
-Fishious Rend: Kill it with water.
-Bolt Beak: Kill it with lightning.
-Octolock: I don't see too much of a problem with this one, but I haven't ran it or fought against it enough. However, it seems to function similarly to moves like Fire Spin, but it lowers Defense. I could see why it's broken, but I don't think it's quite banworthy. Maybe put a "No Intrepid Sword + Octolock" clause though, that seems a bit wack.
 
Last edited:
people are talking about ladder, ill give some thoughts too, storm eagle is right about the ELO gap. as someone who is almost constantly at least top 15, 80% of my games are against players with under 1300 ELO, even then it takes 10-15 minute to find a single game even at 1600, even then the average watchable games is declining daily with less people playing.

edit: samples are like 2 months late wtf
 
Gen 8 activity across all metagames is down compared to gen 7, OU being the least affected obviously. If you take LC for example, their ladder is half as active as a year ago. Heck, in terms of only numbers, BH is doing even better than LC. There isn’t a need to make drastic decisions at this point. OMs has gotten to a good place on Smogon and I’d like to keep it that way. So, NatDex isn’t even an option that will be considered. If you’d like, use the NatDex forum - there’s a thread there.

I do agree with Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request), mostly. It is the responsibility of metagame leaders to make attempts to drive up activity. As for the suggestions, while gen 7 BH is the most popular OM, making it the “main” format isn’t really feasible. Imagine participating in OMGS and playing gen 8 versions of 4 metagames and then gen 7 BH. Yes the DLCs shaking things up is an issue but every format will be dealing with that issue. These are the cards we were dealt and we must do our best with it. The current gen 8 metagame pre-dlc does need to continue to be balanced, even if it’s going to drastically change, for the sake of competitive tournaments like the OM Circuit and OMPL, and I guess ladder in general.

Also, yes, we should extend the blunder and CTC ban to OM since 1v1 is now a subsection of us and it was a “major” tour.
Instead of dismissing it out of hand or saying "these are the cards we are dealt" I think many people would appreciate an explanation why going to a natdex format is a no go. The problem is that these are not the cards we're dealt, we can do whatever we want (As an OM, not OU!). So much time suspecting and discussion on "broken"things will be wasted before a new DLC comes out instead of like, you know, learning and optimizing the "true" long term meta.
 

GL Volkner

[12:15:34] @Thinkerino: You're an animal
is a Tiering Contributor
Instead of dismissing it out of hand or saying "these are the cards we are dealt" I think many people would appreciate an explanation why going to a natdex format is a no go. The problem is that these are not the cards we're dealt, we can do whatever we want (As an OM, not OU!). So much time suspecting and discussion on "broken"things will be wasted before a new DLC comes out instead of like, you know, learning and optimizing the "true" long term meta.
But how do we know it's the true long term meta? What's stopping them from making another DLC with Mega Evolutions, and what if they don't? We can do what we want for our main format, yes, but it's kind of difficult to bring about the DLC early when we don't know what's gonna be in it (we can't even add Urushifu and Calyrex bc we don't know the stats or moves). We do know some stuff they said about every legendary coming back, but this wouldn't be the first time GameFreak didn't specify the small text (but not mythicals!, etc) so realistically we're probably not gonna be accurate to the cartridge post DLC either way, since it's impossible to datamine something that hasn't been released yet.

I'm not saying I like the decision. I don't think the OM leaders or BH council do either. But there's not much we can do about it if we want to stay accurate to cartridge mechanics in the long run.
 
Probably a bad time to mention this in the wake of a discussion like that, but Terrakion seems to be a pretty good counter to DarmGZ

Terrakion @ Choice Scarf / Wide Lens
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Bolt Beak

Damage calcs (wish I knew how to do the inset thing)
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 828-976 (200 - 235.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 662-780 (159.9 - 188.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Dynamax damage calcs
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dynamax Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 828-976 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The two caveats of this Terrakion is the choice lock, which can be nullified with dynamax, and the 90% accuracy of rock slide. Wide lens is included there because it negates this one weakness, but without scarf, it won't outspeed DarmGZ.

Damage calcs (on terrakion)
252 Atk Choice Band Abomasnow V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Terrakion in Harsh Sunshine: 327-384 (84.7 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dynamax damage calcs
252 Atk Abomasnow Max Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Terrakion in Harsh Sunshine: 182-214 (47.1 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

Mold breaker with fishious rend doesn't OKHO unless non-scarf. Edit: Alright fine, it's more of revenge killer rather than a counter. Been playing in games with lots of those lately, so was inclined to try to make one.
 
Last edited:
Probably a bad time to mention this in the wake of a discussion like that, but Terrakion seems to be a pretty good counter to DarmGZ

Terrakion @ Choice Scarf / Wide Lens
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Bolt Beak

Damage calcs (wish I knew how to do the inset thing)
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 828-976 (200 - 235.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 662-780 (159.9 - 188.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Dynamax damage calcs
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dynamax Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 828-976 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The two caveats of this Terrakion is the choice lock, which can be nullified with dynamax, and the 90% accuracy of rock slide. Wide lens is included there because it negates this one weakness, but without scarf, it won't outspeed DarmGZ.

Damage calcs (on terrakion)
252 Atk Choice Band Abomasnow V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Terrakion in Harsh Sunshine: 327-384 (84.7 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dynamax damage calcs
252 Atk Abomasnow Max Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Terrakion in Harsh Sunshine: 182-214 (47.1 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

Mold breaker with fishious rend doesn't OKHO unless non-scarf.
darm can run things like solar blade,fishous rend and close combat so this isnt too great, plus it dies after rocks or chip. so whats the point?
 
darm can run things like solar blade,fishous rend and close combat so this isnt too great, plus it dies after rocks or chip. so whats the point?
Even if Darm isn't running one of those, Terrak still isn't a counter. I'm genuinely stumped as to how someone could look at the calc, notice that Terrak is taking 84.7% at minimum, and come to the conclusion that Terrak is a Darm counter. Terrak is a check at best.
 
Even if Darm isn't running one of those, Terrak still isn't a counter. I'm genuinely stumped as to how someone could look at the calc, notice that Terrak is taking 84.7% at minimum, and come to the conclusion that Terrak is a Darm counter. Terrak is a check at best.
I still refuse to believe that this is a check. checks are something that can beat it or at least keep it at bay throughout the game. I'm going to come back to my original statement, the coverage I stated is very common so it isn't a check, stop saying that it is. I do have to admit this might have a niche somewhere, but right now I just don't see it. sorry
 
here are my thoughts on the meta and the future with dlcs (take all this with a grain of salt I’m not great and not very smart) (also as person who prefers more defensive teams I might be biased):

I don’t think the meta is in a very good spot right now. like 3 or 4 mons (:Darmanitan-Galar-zen::zacian-crowned::zekrom:) completely dominate the meta, forcing you to run either really specific counters that don’t really do anything else, or run an even more offensive team. it shouldn’t be possible to run 4+ of one mon and win (see dgz spam) in a healthy meta imo.

My proposal is that we tier extremely aggressively with qbs to get the meta into a playable spot, until DLC comes out when we can unban things in accordance with the new power level. I think we have to do this if we want the meta before DLC to not be a complete wash. I think we should ban a bunch of mons in order to make the power level more balanced, as right now there are some Pokémon that are obviously way way better than others. I think if like Zac-c, gdz, and a couple others like maybe melm, zama-c, zek if we don’t get rid of beak, etc. were banned the meta would be much more playable (and interesting).

some stuff that I think should definitely go regardless of if we take the aggressive banning approach or not:

beak/rend/vc - these moves completely centralize the meta around these three attacking types. If a mon doesn’t resist any of these (non ff/ps melm), it becomes infinitely worse. idk if they will stay broken after dlc, but I think they will continue to make water electric and fire the best offensive types just by existing.

:grapploct: octolock - this move is uncompetitive and broken. allowing a mon to just add one move to a set and eliminate almost all of their counters is dumb. yeah pivoting moves exist but every time the wall is forced to use them while taking a hit, they are slowly chipped down until they can’t wall anything. and this is even before talking about normalize dragapult, which is stupid and broken only because of this move.

Dynamax - I’ve come around to the idea that this mechanic is unhealthy. One button that any mon can use at any time, that when clicked allows you to beat your checks without sacrificing an item or move, is broken. It makes for uncompetitive 50-50s many times a game. The argument that it’s a big part of gen 8’s identity is dumb. zacian is a big part of gen 8’s identity but thst doesn’t mean it’s not broken.

overall I’m just waiting for dlc so people actually are interested in the meta again so changes can actually happen, because I think we all know that changes need to be made.
 
Well as long as Terrakion doesn't die from the hit, and kills Darm, I see no issue with Terrakion countering DarmGZ. Sure, it'll take huge damage, which can't be ignored, but it'll still function with 6% health.
By definition, a counter is a Pokemon who can repeatedly switch into an opposing Pokemon without much if any fear. Tyranitar vs Blacephalon, Skarmory vs Gliscor, etc. Terrakion is far from a Darm counter. It can only switch into a single V-Create, so after you force out the Darm (no one in their right mind is keeping a slowed Darm in against a Terrakion) you're fucked if it ever comes back in. That's not even considering that for even this to work, you have to keep Terrakion away from pretty much any damage, including hazard damage. Just a single spike allows Darm to OHKO Terrakion 81.3% of the time.
 
You guys I didn’t want to initiate this conversation where we downgrade the thread from Pokemon battles to user battles.

Let’s clarify, his idea is a check, I.e. it’s a revenge killer that forces out Darmanitan if and after Darm has KOed something (or off of a slow pivot, say the Darm user switches in as you use Volt Switch, lettin you send in Terrakion).

Let’s not mix counters with checks. Checks are something like a Frail Focus Sash user being slow pivoted in, and luring the sweeper to attack, but surviving the attack thanks to Focus Sash, and then KOing it on the turn it survives.

Terrakion is a check, but it’s not durable to be a counter.

Anyways; let’s not nitpick and just focus on what will work.

I think we should have the bans immediately occur for this time period:

This week:
Ban the 3 moves


In a month: March 24
If the player base isn’t going up to healthy metagame levels (I.e. enough to not have to wait 7-9 minutes to get paired up for a new battle), then we ban Darm-Galar-Z, etc.

In 2 months: April 24
We consider unbanning NatDex. Because the survival of the metagame overrides the unprecedented cartridge only rules, we need to really ask ourselves, “Is our method of cartridge working?” If the answer is “No, people just don’t play or post like we need in order for the metagame to last until Gen 9”, then we do need to adjust accordingly.

May 24;
If the NatDex has worked, we can still get new stuff from both expansion packs, include the the DLC in June

I think part of the hesitation is people will say “but Nat Dex invalidates the newness of the DLC updates, we’ll actually it doesn’t. They still bring new abilities, items, Pokemon, and new moves (we know for sure that is true for the Galar slowpoke line, 2 form Legendaries with signature moves, etc.), and likely mechanic changes.

It’s not just about what has been done, it’s what will work. Let’s focus on the my 2 month plan, to see if the suspect bans are even enough, then talk about nat Dex if it hasn’t been enough.

Because I gaurantee you, if our usual plan is to argue and point fingers no one will agree and people who don’t agree will just not bother playing, which lowers the player base all over again.
 
The rate this thread is degenerating is inverse to the activity of the BH council.
My quick thoughts on this list:

-Dynamax: While it can be annoying to deal with, Dynamax is a staple of Gen 8 and it would feel wrong without it. Maybe set a cap though, ala mega evos.
-Darm-GZ: Eh, idk. They seem like a powerful sweeper force, but there are many powerful sweeper forces in the meta who are fine; If we nerf their kit, however, specifically V-Create, they can be introduced into gen pop with little to no problem.
-Intrepid Sword: Not only is this the signature ability of sword doggo (and they would feel wrong without it), but there's also similar abilities like Speed Boost and Dauntless Shield. While Attack boosting per turn is obviously better than some Abilities for sure, it might not be banworthy, but idk.
-V-Create: Kill it with fire.
-Fishious Rend: Kill it with water.
-Bolt Beak: Kill it with lightning.
-Octolock: I don't see too much of a problem with this one, but I haven't ran it or fought against it enough. However, it seems to function similarly to moves like Fire Spin, but it lowers Defense. I could see why it's broken, but I don't think it's quite banworthy. Maybe put a "No Intrepid Sword + Octolock" clause though, that seems a bit wack.
No one cares if Dynamax is a staple of gen 8, this is the same trash argument that was used in OU and no one cares, if something is broken it needs to go.
Again no one cares if ISword is a signature ability or not.
Excellent reasoning for the three moves.
Comparing Octolock to Fire Spin is like comparing V-create to Fire Punch. The entire point of Octolock is lowering defenses because you don't see people saying Mean Look is broken. Complex banning is a huge LOL.

I think everyone commented on the Terrak meme but seriously there is no point in expanding that discussion further. Who cares if its a check or a counter (which btw there are no counters in BH).

My views haven't changed at all regarding the suspects since my last post so I'll just repost them.
So I'm surprised more people aren't discussing this but this is such a broken move yikes. The ability to trap a mon and practically delete it if it is unable to escape, kill you first, or somehow remove the stat drops is incredibly uncompetitive as it requires minimal skill to use and very difficult to play against when you don't know the set. The best abuser currently I have found is Onyx Onix 7's Normalize Dragapult with Octolock, Multi-Attack, Taunt, and Entrainment which allows it to trap the opponent, prevent any form of retaliation, and preventing the use of moves such as Recovery, Teleport/Baton Pass, and Haze. Replays for the success of this set can be found by simply searching Onyx Onix 7 for replays. Due to the possibility of Max Strike after Dynamaxing, even Dark and Normal types are not safe and the only true counter to this set is Magic Bounce Tyranitar which is not a great set in the metagame. Note that not even Magic Bouncers are safe because most Bouncers take a huge chunk from Multi-Attack at -1 and they cannot stall it otherwise the damage snowballs (Ghost resists have to be really healthy as well because of Max Strike). I personally have faced against the NormPult set and still struggled against it even with full knowledge of the complete set, showing its potency. Octolock can also be used on other mons such as PH Zamazenta, Zacian, and more. New Edit here: Notably Octolock + Taunt is impossible to play against, see MAMP vs stresh in BH Open with the Zacian-C with Octo Sap Taunt Behemoth which would've sweeped if not for a 30% burn.
Dynamax is a more controversial topic but it is still very disgusting when playing. The first application of Dynamaxing is to escape Choice locks to surprise a switch-in. This leads to a very large amount of unhealthy 50-50s where the defensive side has to constantly guess if the choiced breaker would dynamax or not and either switch to a different resist or dynamax themselves. 50/50s are already bad for competitiveness but in this case the offensive user has very little risk in choosing what to do while the defensive user could potentially lose his dynamax or take heavy damage on one of his checks. The second application of Dynamaxing is to survive hits you would otherwise not, and this is used primarily on offensive mons to prevent revenge killing. Mons such as Mewtwo and Lunala could easily Dynamax and avoid a KO from GDZ/Zeraora while KOing them. This again leads to a large number of 50/50s that can be unfavourable for both sides (and a large reason why most frail breakers NEED to run a pivoting move to avoid such situations. Such users can also Dynamax to avoid a defensive mon retaliating with a KO from moves like Spectral Thief. The third application of Dynamaxing is to negate certain conditions such as Entrainment and Destiny Bond. This (again) leads to 50/50s when facing sets like NormPult but in the latter case of ignoring stuff like DBond makes Dynamaxing incredibly difficult to outplay as not only do you have to correctly predict the dynamax but you also have to stall out the turns, something very difficult to do when they have strong 130 BP moves. The final application of Dynamaxing is to gain the special effects of the Max Moves, including BP. These moves with the stat changes or field effects allow some mons to win 1v1s they normally wouldn't or potentially setup without the use of passive setup moves by using stuff like Max Knuckle, Max Airstream, and Max Ooze. This is also used on defensive mons after trapping with Anchor Shot and following up with Max Steelspike to gain def boosts to successfully outstall the opponent. This application is notably less effective, more niche, and tame compared to the other. Notice how all applications of Dynamax leads to a large number of risky 50/50s (usually on one side) that make the game very uncompetitive and luck-based. Dynamax also favours offense as defensive mons can't really take advantage of Dynamaxing with the loss of Recovery during Dynamax.
170 BP moves are very strong, this everyone can agree. But compared to the above crap this is really much more healthy. While these moves allow users to brute force through checks one needs to realize that Water and Electric aren't exactly the greatest offensive typings. Both typings have ability immunities and Electric has a natural immunity as well. Obviously these moves aren't very threatening if you can move first with Prankster etc and there aren't a lot of great abusers (Zeraora + Barraskewda + setup Zekrom). I'm kinda on the fence for this one. Match up FISH and Lemme OHKO everything Zera are dumb but I think these moves are definitely less important to get rid off compared to other stuff. Also use Defensive Eternatus it can check these moves (Band IS Zera 2HKOs without FC though watch out).
So this move is usually at least as strong as STAB on a lot of mons which makes it good coverage option for physical mons and also is insanely strong by OHKOing most weak to it etc. etc. The stat drops are much easier to abuse though and lower pp and acc compared to 170 BPs as well as more common immunity abilities used for this makes it less dangerous and IMO not broken at all. GDZ isn't even that fast.

Lastly you can't have a proper BH post without criticizing the council.

We have the tier leader E4 Flint who still has yet to play a single ladder game OF GENERATION 8 (NOT EVEN BH) and hasn't posted in discord for 3 WEEKS. It is clear to any reasonable person that he is incapable of leading this meta or even make any decisions regarding it, considering how he wouldn't even be familiar with the new mons in gen 8. Similar to what I said in my last post, even if DLC drops or something Flint would still be not capable of leading the meta because his activity towards the end of Gen 7 is also very questionable. When will OM leadership do anything about this?
Funbot is definitely active on Smogon, however as people have pointed out she is spread across too many metas to actually have the time to be active in each one of them (perhaps excluding National Dex). I'm not going to say that she is incapable but I believe that it is to everyone's benefit that Funbot no longer leads this meta.
Will has been moved to Resources so not going to comment, should probably get the other stuff out soon though.
Loser is doing a good job of addressing and engaging with the community and being active by constantly playing in tours and ladder. However he is 1/3 of the BH Council so he cannot do anything when he needs other people to agree to stuff and vote and etc.

There are much better and capable people for making decisions regarding the BH community, especially when the metagame requires a fast response including quickbans and quick suspect tests. Some people I can think of that include MAMP and Volkner. Both have played this meta extensively and are very active in the meta (posts, plays the ladder, plays tours, part of BH QC team). Although at this point anyone that has actually played this meta and has understanding and can work well in a council like position could work.

TLDR stop arguing and nitpicking on pointless stuff, Octolock and Dynamax are dumb and uncompetitive so QB both, high BP moves are controversial so consider suspecting them separately (V-create feels balanced), BH Council is inactive af so replace the inactive members. Do all these ASAP if you actually care about this meta and don't want it to die OM Leadership.
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Moderator
I realized I meant to announce this last week but didn't get the time to, which may have caused some confusion.

I would like to congratulate MAMP as our newest full council member; along with Funbot and a loser, this council will primarily be responsible for metagame decision making. As I mentioned previously before the Shed suspect, I will be moving off to more of a maintaining thread and resources posts, and advisory role with my presence as om leader.
While my love for bh still exists, i can feel my motivation has slipped away, be it because most of my friends who i grew up playing with are gone, to some recent interactions ive had, to also irl events that are consuming the bulk of my time. that's not to say that i "havent played a single ladder game" - i agree that i have not been able to maintain my activity, which is why i had already decided introducing gen 8 would be my last activity as bhtl a while ago while gen 7 was still around, but i have played around 60 games on ladder on various alts and have played many challenges games. i dont really save replays unless there's something interesting going on in them, but here's a few - (replay | replay | unrated). i have been looking after bh for i think around 7 years, which i think even among the normal tiers is a long time and have gone through many tournaments, 10 suspects and 8 polls in gen 7 alone, and thousands of games. i enjoyed being the bh leader and tried to lead responsibly and responsively at least until the end of gen 7. thanks to all of you and all of my friends, you know who you are. glhf

the bhc should be providing their roadmap on what to do going forward and will try to work with the comm as much as possible, which i think is better than reverting back to the suspect polls which was a big criticism as i recall of my leadership and was a main factor in wanting the creation of a council in the first place.
also note that this post is for information only - if youd like to reply to any part of it you can pm me so as to not (further) derail the current conversation going on
 

xavgb

:xavgb:
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
OM Grand Slam Winner
It appears that a ton of discussion has been sparked in this thread and as usual people have been going through their thoughts on each of the arguably broken elements of the metagame. This is good, but at this point I'd like to zoom out a bit and talk about why this meta has been feeling like a true BH hell original and the main differences in how the meta plays in general now compared to gen 7. After that I'll use those thoughts to explain what I think should be done with the meta.

The thing that strikes me about BH right now is how unstable it is. Normally when we talk about instability in mons we're almost exclusively referring to building/matchup aspect of the tier, but in this case I think this statement is relevant to both building and playing. It's pretty difficult to go into a tour game feeling confident right now because there's normally something that destroys the team you're about to bring.

Anyone who has laddered recently will have seen an assortment of teams using rain, sun, or Terrain to support their wallbreakers. While these are very matchup dependent, they can be very hard to play against if you have the wrong defensive core.
This comment was about the 170+ BP moves on ladder but it remains true for the metagame in general and also tour play. On top of weather and Eterrain you also have various forms of species spam running wild in the meta. There's a wide variety of teams that can remove player agency given the wrong matchup, and when you're playing in tours the dumb stuff will eventually get you. To avoid this, we really need those teams to either be less common or less good. Luckily there's a pretty simple way to help with this that doesn't involve banning styles that aren't broken.

this kind of leads into the next issue, flaws with the meta. we are playing with the pdons, the water bubbles, the psychic surges of gen 8 free. consistency is limited. there's too much sauce and it takes focus away from the nuances of building and playing that really separate the good players from the bad ones.
For the most part making BH balanced comes back to this statement. I'll roll with the use of "sauce" here to mean any of the borderline broken elements discussed in the last few pages. Currently with so much sauce in the meta there isn't really much room to specifically prepare for any of the other things that I mentioned in the last paragraph. The powerful things that dominate the meta are also dominant in the builder, to the point where most people just build to fit whatever broken things they can on their team and do their best to cover the top threats. This leads to really limited building and playing (do we have a breaker that wins? How well can we switch into their breakers?). In fact, SL42 has already beaten me to voicing this sentiment.

1582690825687.png


If the meta were in a good place (and this applies to any meta really), the middle ground would be good teambuilding. What we have currently allowed in the meta is a big flashing neon sign that says mons should do all of their work on their own - if they resist your STABs just slap them with some of the powerful coverage options. The fact that mons make huge progress on their own so often is detrimental to games; there's not much skill to demonstrate in playing like this, as the interactive parts of mons games don't really come into play if the outcome is hinging on whether your mon can successfully break its checks. Gen 7 was dominated by threats that could cripple but generally not break their checks. Things like Xerneas were good because they could make progress against their checks (thanks Spikes), even though they weren't breaking directly through them - that came later, with the help of their teammates. This is much healthier, as games don't feel random that way, and it was much easier to claim that the better player+team combo came out on top.

Following on from that point, Gen 8 features plenty of ways that the game state will pivot in the space of a turn. All it takes is a convenient Octolock or V-create, and suddenly you can be in a lot of danger. This is nothing new, but as loser mentioned in his post, the combination of more high BP moves and weaker defensive mons means that we're struggling for consistent defensive mons. Here's another funny excerpt from a conversation with Andy (who played some BH last gen and is now learning gen 8).

1582696209377.png



On the one hand, the problem here is using Hippowdon as an Electric check when it dies to Fishious Rend. On the other hand, how do we actually get around this kind of thing? Seismitoad isn't weak to Fishious Rend which is pretty cool, but it is weak to Grass coverage. The difference between this gen and last gen is that the outcome of one turn like this is normally OHKOing a crucial mon of a matchup. I'm not actually even asking for walls here - weaker checks to things being 2HKOed by coverage would already be a much better scenario. Then, if they predict correctly, you still get punished for having a worse check, however for the time being you'll be able to keep your weakened mon to deter the spammable move or to preserve a sack. This makes a huge difference in these matchups, and it's pretty crucial to surviving some of these matchups. The concept of making plays to recover from unfortunate turns is a central skill-based aspect of BH, and if a mon can't successfully recover from these scenarios that would typically cause it to be written off as a bad mon. Right now, however, there's not enough mons that aren't bad for the roles that you have to cover on a team, so instead we're stuck with things we already know are not ideal. To be clear, I'm not saying it's impossible to hard check the threats in this meta, this is more of a commentary on how much worse games can go when you bring softer checks to these threats. The give and take of prepping different amounts for different mons is messed up, because the middle ground that sl mentioned of mons that don't either lose or hard wall is tiny.


When it comes to fixing these gameplay issues, I'd suggest the following:

1) QB Octolock. I'm targeting Octolock specifically here because it's just not competitive or healthy. It offers nothing positive to the meta as every set that runs it apart from NormPult is slightly worse, except for when they get the matchup they want. Octolock's existence makes scouting an absolute mess, as it's yet another thing that can effectively OHKO some mons; even though checks dying to Octolock does not happen in the space of a turn, once Octolock is clicked you are stuck there. I noticed Chess pointed out one of my games vs MAMP in open, and I don't think there's too much to read into there, but the full removal of Hippowdon from that game was a big deal when against nearly every other Zacian-C set Hippowdon would be able to dip from that matchup if there was a problem. Honestly all things considered I'm lucky to even have a Bounce Melmetal there when alternatively I could just have a situation where I lose my Zac-C check and then lose the game to Zac-C.

2) Suspect... the sauce. I'm not even kidding, I literally think reducing the amount of stuff to prep for in just about any way would be much more help than harm to the meta. Personally the 170+ BP moves in some order or Intrepid Sword would be a logical start, but again anything that's been mentioned works with a close enough eye or good activity to run any follow-up suspects if needed. Right now my least favourite place to start would be Dynamax. From using some of the cheese styles myself and playing against them, Dyna is generally one of the only consistently strong elements holding these teams back, because it's hugely important to manage the situations where you can clean a team that's weak defensively, or to switch the momentum of the game by turning an OHKO into a 2HKO and taking out a breaker. While this is very clearly a broken checks broken argument, we have multiple broken things in the meta and the order in which we deal with them is still up for debate - I'm not suggesting that we don't deal with Dynamax, just pointing out that it's not a no-brainer to get rid of when it comes to the positives and negatives of its impact. I expect that the overall dumbness of the mechanic will easily outweigh any positives to keeping it in a balanced meta, but for now we're dealing with a crazy meta.


I don't think there's anything to wait for right now, since the Open's final round has already started, so I'd really like to see any type of tiering action soon. Like I said before I'm not too bothered exactly what it is, anything's better than nothing at this point.


I'll leave y'all with this completely unrelated video of someone trying to pronounce Worcestershire Sauce.

 
Longinsh post inc
I will share some thoughts on the meta and some changes i would like to see happen,granted that,i dont feel the meta is in a bad place right now but ladder activity does seem low at this point.

1.-Dynamax -Personally i think this is the most clear broken element in the game atm.While it has some healthy usages,particullarly an extra answer to a potential sweep,(ie belly drum/shell smash being answered in which case even if a sweeper is forced out predicting dynamax it still has to setup again and dynamax has done its job WITHOUT relying on prediction)in most cases,revenge killing-expecting dynamax and dynamaxing 1st-getting out of chioce lock/taunt/encore-countering opposing dynamax-setting/changing weather/terrain and most others,it falls on a category of either high stakes 50/50 or broken answers broken,situations we should try to avoid given the choice.It has been discussed to death in most tiers,and while bh isnt rly the place to max airstream and sweep it still even if only for one turn can swing the game in one side's favour by a (in)correct guess

2.-Interpid sword -A bit undertalked, i will also address evc/rend/bek here.I think bh is a slow tier with mons being more bulky than usual and many long 200+turn matches,and i find the existance of viable offensive abilities healthy,not the the extent of pure power and water bubble,but at least sth better than adaptability,tc and flare boost.The problem with interpid is that,coupled with a choice band more than doubles ur atk stat,essentially outvalueing fur coat (and unaware) due to how the multipliers work.I dont think a choice band ban is feasible?but at least this ability in particular with the 3 afformentioned moves is too much to handle.On the other hand i think the 3 moves,while broken in most tiers,in bh might be just balanced enough to make the meta more offensively orriented.This might feel weird to experienced players accustomed to the safer playstyle of bh but i would be in favour of such a change,especially when those 3 specific moves have ability immunities and thus can be somewhat accounted for in teambuilding.I rly suck on formatting so i wont directly quote,but xavgb above mentioned how its hard to tour prep without hard losing to something specific,but personally i dont think this is a negative issue,if there was a team or playstyle that could handle anything if played correctly everyone would try to do that

3.-Species clause-It has been discussed in past i know but i wana propose my dumb idea.I dont know its its feasible but could it be possible to force douplicate of mons to have diferent names,for instance if u wana use double/triple eternatus u have to name them differently.I have been many times in the position where,despite having scouted the sets of an enemy mon,due to it being mutliple i dont know which set am i encountering,an issue which counters actually scouting,a very important aspect of the game

4.-Octolock - Probably im not in line with everone on this move.It is a strong trapping move,yea its better than mean look and infestation which have been viably used,But its still a traping move.Anchor shot can pp stall,imprison transform can work,this thing only takes one slot to basically do 2 diferent thing but even then i dont think its broken.Ghosts exist,shed shell exists and pivot moves are very common.Usually octo can get one kill on the surprise,but with knowing a certain mon has octolock from my experience strong teams usually have an answer to it,like most trapping sets.

Lastly i wana talk about the game state overall.I dont think bh is that 'unbalanced' right now,maybe im just wrong here,but i think lack of play is mostly due to the lack of variety.We dont have many usable mons,some stuff(sets/mons/moves) are just that much stronger than the rest,the previous gen had more things u could work with so the current bh gen gets stale faster.Also just aesthetically mray m2 and zygod look cool and werent usable in other tiers,etern and dgz look very silly u have to admit.Might sound memeing but even such a thing could play a part on general game activity
 
I'm going to try keep this as short as possible

Problems with Gen 7- some balancing problems

Problems with Gen 8- it's bad

Let me elaborate. In gen 8 the main problem is you take away 75% of the mons and you are left with a pool of maybe 20 mons that actually are viable. That's awful. Getting rid of bolt beak, octolock, darm Z, will not fix this problem. The issue is that all the games are going to be very very similar, and the complete lack of all of those walls that existed in gen 7 means that things that were cancerous in gen 7 (smash/sleep/op breakers like rayquaza) are always always going to be worse. The amount of walls is so small that I could name 5 potential walls before i searched for a battle and almost always be right on one of them. This makes it super easy to prep for and thus super easy to break. Short games that are centralized on breaking walls and sweeping are bad. I'm sure you can find people who like battles like that, but from most players standpoint, games with 0 counter play are generally just bad. Nobody plays pokemon so they could flip a coin and decide battles at the preview. These games constitute most all games on the ladder because of this complete lack of walls. Because of this a large portion of the gen 7 player base just stopped playing. (I know that I am currently in the top 10 and thus am "still playing" but the fact is is that I've played about 60 games this gen and I played nearly ~1000 this far into gen 7, so game volume is also important (I think this goes for many other people high up on the ladder)).

People are generally smart and rational. If you give them something good, they will like it; if you give them something bad, they won't. The problem with gen 8 isn't the existence of this move or that move, it's the fact that the power of the sweepers (BST, access to boosting, sleep spam, terrain and rain spam, high powered moves) are just incredibly more powerful than the walls that are trying to stop them.

You can't just take away more than half the variability of the game and expect players to play it and like it the same amount. It's like making a movie that cuts out 90% of the source material of the book and then wondering why people like the book more. The lack of interest in gen 8 largely stems from the lack of variance and by extension the extreme low quality nature of the games. People say that we can't add a national dex, and that's fine, I honestly don't care much anymore, but my question is this.

Any game draws its power from its playerbase. A game that is incredibly fun but has no playerbase is essentially unplayable. The playerbase is the ultimate law of the land. If they want something, they should have it, because they are the beating heart of the game. Without them the game is nothing. So my question is: "Why should we ignore the playerbase if they ask for something?" I see lots of people asking for NatDex and I see lots of people giving logical arguments about why that makes no sense. To me this is nonsensical, it treats the game as the most important component, as if it were sacred and separate from the playerbase. That's not how it works. If the playerbase just up and leaves however, all those logical arguments for no NatDex are basically worthless. So until someone can prove to me that the playerbase does not want NatDex I don't think anyone should be shooting the idea down.
 

The Immortal

is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Programmeris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Other Metas Leader
Any game draws its power from its playerbase. A game that is incredibly fun but has no playerbase is essentially unplayable. The playerbase is the ultimate law of the land. If they want something, they should have it, because they are the beating heart of the game. Without them the game is nothing. So my question is: "Why should we ignore the playerbase if they ask for something?" I see lots of people asking for NatDex and I see lots of people giving logical arguments about why that makes no sense. To me this is nonsensical, it treats the game as the most important component, as if it were sacred and separate from the playerbase. That's not how it works. If the playerbase just up and leaves however, all those logical arguments for no NatDex are basically worthless. So until someone can prove to me that the playerbase does not want NatDex I don't think anyone should be shooting the idea down.
There's literally two threads to potentially discuss NatDex BH, both of which are dead. The playerbase should show it's interested, not just say it and expect a section to flip on a whim. Here is one of those threads. Literally go and build that up until the next Pet Mod of the Season voting. Because the way it's going, it would not even be picked as a nominee and you want Other Metagames to make such a drastic decision with no basis.

Any further posts mentioning National Dex shall be deleted. It does not contribute to the development of this Balanced Hackmons metagame and just derails any real discussion.
 
I feel like you didn't really listen to what I was saying in my post. I wasn't asking for a NatDex mod. I was asking for a serious attempt by the council to figure out what people actually want. My personal opinion was that NatDex was a good idea, but as i stated in my post, all the power is in the hands of the community

Leaders look at what people are saying on this thread and then just haphazardly decide that the thing being discussed is what people care about. But very very rarely that's the case. In the shell smash suspect the entire thing got derailed and became the shedinja suspect. Looking at the thread leading up to the suspect you would not be able to guess this outcome. Had e4 not set up a poll then shedinja wouldn't of ever been suspected. My post was about figuring out the desires of the playerbase and your response to that was "we set up a mod with 0 users and nobody wants to play it!" I specifically said: "So until someone can prove to me that the playerbase does not want NatDex I don't think anyone should be shooting the idea down." and the response was essentially "I'ma just shoot that down real quick and prevent anyone from ever suggesting they like natdex ever again and relegate them to a thread with no users" That's literally the definition of voter suppression. How is that a fair process? I don't think that my needs or wants are important, but I do think that the communities needs are. About a third of my post was dedicated towards the importance of following the will of the community and I think in general, this thread does a pretty bad and inefficient job of doing that.

This is more than just a desire for NatDex but rather an expression of my frustration with the entire ethos of this thread. There are never ever ever polls to figure out what people actually want, so we are forced to use likes as a kind of psuedo poll. And that's just what they are, a poor representation of the real thing. I just want someone to setup an actual poll to figure out what the community wants instead of relying on a popularity system
 
Last edited:
I feel like you didn't really listen to what I was saying in my post. I wasn't asking for a NatDex mod. I was asking for a serious attempt by the council to figure out what people actually want. My personal opinion was that NatDex was a good idea, but as i stated in my post, all the power is in the hands of the community

My post was about figuring out the desires of the playerbase and your response to that was "we set up a mod with 0 users and nobody wants to play it!" I specifically said: "So until someone can prove to me that the playerbase does not want NatDex I don't think anyone should be shooting the idea down." and the response was essentially "I'ma just shoot that down real quick and prevent anyone from ever suggesting they like natdex ever again and relegate them to a thread with no users"
The reason why the thread has no users is because people like you don't make any effort to help build it up. This isn't just directed at you, it goes for a lot of other BH people. They make some reason up like "ew pet mod" and don't comment on it early on, and then now they say "ew it has no users." Since everyone thinks this way, there's barely any activity and it turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy. You say it has no users, so why don't you join, contribute, and invite other people do the same?
 

GL Volkner

[12:15:34] @Thinkerino: You're an animal
is a Tiering Contributor
The reason why the thread has no users is because people like you don't make any effort to help build it up. This isn't just directed at you, it goes for a lot of other BH people. They make some reason up like "ew pet mod" and don't comment on it early on, and then now they say "ew it has no users." Since everyone thinks this way, there's barely any activity and it turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy. You say it has no users, so why don't you join, contribute, and invite other people do the same?
Since this seems like a direct jab at me given I've used the same wording on numerous occasions, I feel like I should reply. No, I don't feel like playing NatDex BH; Not because I wouldn't love the format, but rather it's on a side server so it's impossible to ladder (and you'd have to find people willing to play too), because it's not actually featured in any team tournament so I don't really feel like playing only friendly games of it when I could just benefit more by playing concurrent BH games, and there's no incentive otherwise to play a format. I find plenty of formats on PS fun, but all of them offer what I've listed that NatDex BH doesn't. If even one of these were fixed I'd be down to give it a try.

Also yes, pet mods give me a headache.
 
The reason why the thread has no users is because people like you don't make any effort to help build it up. This isn't just directed at you, it goes for a lot of other BH people. They make some reason up like "ew pet mod" and don't comment on it early on, and then now they say "ew it has no users." Since everyone thinks this way, there's barely any activity and it turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy. You say it has no users, so why don't you join, contribute, and invite other people do the same?
This is true, but it puts the burden far too heavily on users. Part of democracy is figuring out what a community wants and then making it as easy as possible to allow them to express their opinions. Because pet mods start with 0 users it takes far far more work to build up a userbase than it does to just logon to showdown and play a BH game. Yes we should encourage pet mods, but we should also make it easier for people to express their opinions. This thread and the gen 7 thread and every other thread I've seen has a tendency to start talking about one thing and then have it snowball into a squabble about nitpicking the original argument and why it would be good or bad. This type of discourse focuses solely on one idea, not all the ideas, which is not good for discovering community sentiment.
 
rather it's on a side server so it's impossible to ladder (and you'd have to find people willing to play too), because it's not actually featured in any team tournament so I don't really feel like playing only friendly games of it when I could just benefit more by playing concurrent BH games
Both of these problems are solved with an influx of users. With more thread activity comes the possibility of it getting on main as a ladder for half a year, and if it comes to prominence MBH can definitely hold tournaments. Not sure about team tournaments, but if the majority of BH players also played MBH it's definitely possible.

Also yes, pet mods give me a headache.
It's only in Pet Mods because it hasn't been accepted as an OM. If there is a MBH community that is competitively adept then why does the stigma of "pet mods" pose a problem?

This is true, but it puts the burden far too heavily on users. Part of democracy is figuring out what a community wants and then making it as easy as possible to allow them to express their opinions. Because pet mods start with 0 users it takes far far more work to build up a userbase than it does to just logon to showdown and play a BH game.
Fair point, but I've heard a lot of clamoring for NatDex BH so far, which means there is already a fairly large potential userbase. If all of these users actually shared their ideas on the MBH thread couldn't it become more popular?
 
i’m kinda confused here, you guys talked about the problem of the BH playerbase and now you’re talking about a large potential natdex bh playerbase, wouldn’t that pull even more bh players to leave gen8 and play natdex? also please post gen8 bh related stuff
 

Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

NO MONEY? NO JOB? TOO MUCH BAD NEWS??
is a Community Contributor

So until someone can prove to me that the playerbase does not want NatDex I don't think anyone should be shooting the idea down.
I'ma just shoot that down real quick and prevent anyone from ever suggesting they like natdex ever again and relegate them to a thread with no users
bro the thread is dead. this is the best indicator that no one is currently interested in the metagame.

you're acting like getting people to play natdex bh is some kind of monumental task, but it really isn't. you literally only have to post in the thread. actually lab out the metagame. make sample teams and fight the few others interested in the meta. post replays. if you're interested in the meta this shouldn't even feel like work.
-
[Banning things] will not fix this problem. The issue is that all the games are going to be very very similar, and the complete lack of all of those walls that existed in gen 7 means that things that were cancerous in gen 7 ([things that were banned]) are always always going to be worse.
-
The amount of walls is so small that I could name 5 potential walls before i searched for a battle and almost always be right on one of them.
| 3 | Giratina | 40.60895% |
| 6 | Zygarde-Complete | 28.95164% |
| 9 | Registeel | 17.32937% |
| 10 | Yveltal | 16.73243% |
| 12 | Arceus | 12.44237% |
-
(I know that I am currently in the top 10 and thus am "still playing" but the fact is is that I've played about 60 games this gen and I played nearly ~1000 this far into gen 7, so game volume is also important (I think this goes for many other people high up on the ladder)).
you're not fooling anyone

if anyones having trouble w matchup just run good pokemon like offensive fc eternatus, pokemon that can take hits and progress the game are super valuable in this meta and i'd recommend them
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top