BH Balanced Hackmons

[a loser]

RIP Shedinja. Forgive them, for they know not what they do.

We think that Double Iron Bash and Zacian-Crowned are both potentially worthy of quick bans. We see the recent discussion and would like to hear more of people’s thoughts on both of these.

My brief thoughts on both:
Double Iron Bash is uncompetitive. It has high base power, an extremely high flinch rate, and no immunities. Only having 8 PP and being punishable by Rocky Helmet damage are really the only drawbacks, but even these can be played around.

Zacian-Crowned is extremely hard to prepare for now that it can pick from any ability and useful items. Most of these abilities and items nullify what were previously solid checks to it when it was restricted, like Fur Coat Seismitoad. I agree that we just don’t have the right tools to deal with this mon reliably.

 

[DarkBeserker]

on the topic of banning

ban double iron bash and zacian. or I'm going to stab somebody I swear to god

 

[MAMP]

I’m definitely in favour of quickbanning both Zacian-C and Double Iron Bash.

Big sword dog has extremely limited defensive counterplay, is very difficult to check offensively, and is tremendously versatile. It’s just too much for the tier to deal with. Its so far above other offensive threats that it feels hard to justify not running it, and I’ve had to carry 2-3 dedicated checks for it on my teams to feel safe against it. Zac-C demonstrated its banworthiness earlier in the generation when it was free, and nothing has really changed since then except that Shed, which could sometimes check it, is gone.

Double Iron Bash is just uncompetitive, I don’t think there’s much to say about it. Looking at it purely on the grounds of power level it might not be broken, but it’s presence in the tier causes matches to come down to RNG coin flips far too often, and it allows mons to cheese their way through what should be solid checks with just a bit of luck. I don’t see any real reason to keep this around.

To clarify, if Zac-C were banned would it still be allowed with Rusted Sword and Intrepid Sword like it was earlier?

 

[Storm Eagle]

To clarify, if Zac-C were banned would it still be allowed with Rusted Sword and Intrepid Sword like it was earlier?

I don't see why it wouldn't. Red Orb Groudon is a thing. I would think Rusted Sword (or maybe Intrepid Sword) would get suspected if Rusted Sword Zacian was overpowered. Not to mention a complete ban on Zacian-C, both freed and limited, would probably be a lot less popular at this point and have a lot less support from the community.

 

[NidoTheKing]

Okay, enough already!

I'm pretty sure EVERYONE wanted Zacian-C banned from BH ever since it was allowed at the very beginning due to how hyper-centralizing and clearly superior it was compared to others. Hell, right now it's even better than it was at first given the mechanic updates on Body Press and Shedinja being recently booted, so keeping it any longer than it has already stayed is just insulting at this point.

Quickban this thing and never let it come back unrestricted again.


As for Double-Iron Bash, I've been advocating how dumb the move has been since the beginning even before Zacian was conceived. It's a crazy-abusable move that allows degenerate and frankly uncompetitive sets and strategies to steal games from others, all while breaking past Substitutes and dealing more damage than it realistically should. Even though it has 8 PP and can be punished by Rocky Helmet, it's just not worth letting exist so it could be further abused by those other than just Zacian-C.

 

[willdbeast]

To clarify, if Zac-C were banned would it still be allowed with Rusted Sword and Intrepid Sword like it was earlier?

That's what we want to do, and The Immortal has given us assurances that we can do that, even though it does differ slightly from pdon in that the form change isn't something that happens on the field.

 

[DF-Shock]

My thoughts :

Zacian-C Rusted Sword Intrepid Sword was a good set in the pre-ban Shed meta, with a lot of coverage no needed of band for hit hard, and not locked on one move. This set is really too good, I think we need to suspect test some broken move / abilities (Intrepid Sword / V-create / Bolt Beak / Fishious Rend) to maybe balanced this tier but isn't the matter here. This set of Zacian must be playable for now.

Now the new Zacian... You can use band with his incredible attack and speed tie, use scarf to lure the scarf lure set like Excadrill, or LO/sash for a set-up sweeper set... Also you can run Intrepid Sword for Wallbreak, Mold Breaker for destoying Fur Coat / Flash Fire Check (or use as a fast lead also) and more lure set like Corrosion, Tinted Lens, Technician, Serene grace and I must forgot a lot of viable set... Zaciann-C could used lot of good coverage (V-create / Close Combat / Earthquake / Bolt Beak / Fishious Rend / Power Whip (for Seismitoad) / Double Iron Bash ), and that with some move like Recover/Sword Dance or Shift Gear to be more threatening, so you doesn't have an universal check of this pokemon. Also Zacian-C is a good choice for HO Spam team so, you will face not once but a lot of doggos each game (when a Species Clause?).To conclude, I am for a quickban of Zacian-C with choice on abilities AND item.

Double Iron Bash, the 51% to flinch (84% with Serene Grace) seems dumb for player who didn't play a lot of BH matches. It is dumb, yes, be not so overpower. Prankster doesn't fear of that, huge drawback with Rocky Helmet, only 8 PP so don't spammable, steel resistance doesn't take a lot on this move. So you have a lot of counterplay for this. Certainly this move need a suspect test (but need a lot of suspect test to balance this meta, so I didn't see it as a priority like high power moves like V-create/Bolt Beak/Fishious Rend), so I am against a quickban of Double Iron Bash.

 

[DarkBeserker]

Okay on another topic:

Please Suspect Dynamax.

why suspect Dynamax? it restricts teambuilding far more than it should, and possibly even more than shedinja ever did, as it can make certain improofs near impossible if you want to use a certain set, as your improof could just get blown away by Max moves, I was personally fine with this before when shedinja was around. as it could have a set where not even Dynamax moves could harm it. another issue I find with this is revenge killing. it makes revenge killing SO MUCH HARDER than it needs to be as if a Zacian is at revenge kill ranger and you can fake-speed. if it dynamaxes You can't flinch it and it has double the health. so then imposter can win by just clicking a button, where any other situation you could have won that matchup. so yeah ban this. it's uncompetitive and unfun.

Oh! one more thing: Destiny bond doesnt work.

 

[AbuseroftheBroken]

Balanced Hackmons really isn't as fun as Gen 7. The lack of choices kinda kills what made it fun imo, since BH was where people could mess with everything. I'm aware that this is due to Gamefreak's changes on the actual game, but still. Wish BH took the "Legacy" mindset that was used for a separate OU.

Even the Crowned Legendaries and Eternamax Eternaus, which are the new playthings, can't be played (without the held items in the Crowned Legs case, not at all in Eternamax's case), and one of the more interesting abilities in Neutralizing Gas was immediately killed before it even had a chance in BH.

Not sure if I'm allowed to post something like this, but just my thoughts on the current state of BH I guess. Seems so ban-happy and limited tbh, I sometimes wonder if regular Hackmons would be playable nowadays without any restrictions.

 

[Tmi489]

and one of the more interesting abilities in Neutralizing Gas was immediately killed

lack of choices kinda kills what made it fun imo

ngas destroys all possible choice in the metagame, forcing the opponent and yourself into ngas
even if ability clause was used you would have 1 mon just immune to any form of ability based phasing leading to horrible sweep after sweep

Even the Crowned Legendaries and Eternamax Eternaus, which are the new playthings, can't be played (without the held items in the Crowned Legs case, not at all in Eternamax's case),

look at etern and see if you want it to be played
zacian was recently freed

regular Hackmons would be playable nowadays

*pure hackmons plug*
ph frees eternmax and ngas, spoiler is a lot of just those and some sweepers

 

[AbuseroftheBroken]

Well, in the case of Pure Hackmons I would assume it would be a bunch of Eternamax Eternatus' fighting each other with various abilities, with secondary mons like Zacian-C which would be used as breakers or other stuff. Afaik, Comatose is considered a signature ability that isn't negated by Gastro or Mold Breaker, so it likely isn't touched by Neutralizing Gas either (since NGas doesn't affect Ice Face, Stance Change, and whatnot). Comatose would block Sleep spam, which would necessitate a response since one mon can spam sleep and the other can't. Cue the various other abilities like Shadow Tag and Misty Surge, which could be used to counter or take advantage of Comatose. Pure Hackmons could be interesting due to that, but yea likely wouldn't be balanced I imagine, heh.

More importantly, how do you guys feel about a "Legacy" BH, maybe deviate from the "have to be possible in the cart" rule? I was wondering, since Silvally can now use different forms without its drive or ability, can Arceus do the same? How would some of the Thanos-snapped mons (like Primal Groudon) fair against Zacian-C? Just some thoughts I guess, I would think if OU can have a Legacy form, BH could follow that "legacy" mindset too.

 

[anaconja]

Balanced Hackmons really isn't as fun as Gen 7. The lack of choices kinda kills what made it fun imo, since BH was where people could mess with everything. I'm aware that this is due to Gamefreak's changes on the actual game, but still. Wish BH took the "Legacy" mindset that was used for a separate OU.

More importantly, how do you guys feel about a "Legacy" BH, maybe deviate from the "have to be possible in the cart" rule? I was wondering, since Silvally can now use different forms without its drive or ability, can Arceus do the same? How would some of the Thanos-snapped mons (like Primal Groudon) fair against Zacian-C? Just some thoughts I guess, I would think if OU can have a Legacy form, BH could follow that "legacy" mindset too.

Shameless plug for MBH. Go check that out.

 

[AbuseroftheBroken]

Shameless plug for MBH. Go check that out.

A bummer that no one was there, but your Pet Mod is exactly how I wished actual Balanced Hackmons was. Although tbh there seems to be a lack of players in general in BH rn. Guess I'll crawl back into my hole until Gamefreak decides to re-release all the mons they locked behind DLC.

 

[Chessking345]

Hi i would like to discuss the unhealthy aspects of this metagame in order of unhealthiness, as well as address the council.

Zacian-Crowned

I think it is plainly obvious to any competent player that Zacian-C is warping the entire metagame around itself and basically outclasses every other offensive mon and invalids nearly every defensive check. Its absurd speed tier makes revenge-killing and opposing offensive pressure nearly impossble with the only mon that can outspeed and KO it being Scarf GDZ which can be outsped by using a Scarf Zacian-C of your own or running FF Zacian-C (no one said it had to use offensive abilities). This mon is inherently unhealthy for the current metagame, moreso than Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquaza who actually had possible defensive checks and could be checked offensively.

Double Iron Bash

Double Iron Bash is not immediately broken but is insanely uncompetitive with its solid BP and a staggering 51% flinch chance. It is not uncommon for a very solid defensive check to get consecutively flinched down by Double Iron Bash into range of another move which forces the use of Recovery at high percentages, throwing away momentum that you could've had by using a pivot move. For example, restricted Zacian-C could break past one of its better checks in FC Seismitoad by only flinching once if it has Photon Geyser or flinching twice if it has Sunsteel Strike. The counter-argument so far is that it loses to Pranksters and takes a lot from Rocky Helmet. However regarding Pranksters how many can actually take on the coverage moves without Strength Sap? Rocky Helmet sounds very good until you get hit by the coverage move, get flinched once, and then KOed and now your check is dead and they only took 1/3 HP in doing so. Note that this move, while easily the most viable on Zacian-Crowned, restricted or not, is also useable on a myriad of other offensive mons such as Excadrill, Zamazenta-Crowned, Solgaleo, Necrozma-DM, and even unSTABed attackers like Zamazenta who could use this move to break past Fairies and also chip down would-be checks such as Eternatus in range of moves like Earthquake. This move is very similar to the infamous Chatter and its reasons for Ban is similar as well.

Octolock

So I'm surprised more people aren't discussing this but this is such a broken move yikes. The ability to trap a mon and practically delete it if it is unable to escape, kill you first, or somehow remove the stat drops is incredibly uncompetitive as it requires minimal skill to use and very difficult to play against when you don't know the set. The best abuser currently I have found is Onyx Onix 7's Normalize Dragapult with Octolock, Multi-Attack, Taunt, and Entrainment which allows it to trap the opponent, prevent any form of retaliation, and preventing the use of moves such as Recovery, Teleport/Baton Pass, and Haze. Replays for the success of this set can be found by simply searching Onyx Onix 7 for replays. Due to the possibility of Max Strike after Dynamaxing, even Dark and Normal types are not safe and the only true counter to this set is Magic Bounce Tyranitar which is not a great set in the metagame. Note that not even Magic Bouncers are safe because most Bouncers take a huge chunk from Multi-Attack at -1 and they cannot stall it otherwise the damage snowballs (Ghost resists have to be really healthy as well because of Max Strike). I personally have faced against the NormPult set and still struggled against it even with full knowledge of the complete set, showing its potency. Octolock can also be used on other mons such as PH Zamazenta, Zacian, and more.

Dynamax

Dynamax is a more controversial topic but it is still very disgusting when playing. The first application of Dynamaxing is to escape Choice locks to surprise a switch-in. This leads to a very large amount of unhealthy 50-50s where the defensive side has to constantly guess if the choiced breaker would dynamax or not and either switch to a different resist or dynamax themselves. 50/50s are already bad for competitiveness but in this case the offensive user has very little risk in choosing what to do while the defensive user could potentially lose his dynamax or take heavy damage on one of his checks. The second application of Dynamaxing is to survive hits you would otherwise not, and this is used primarily on offensive mons to prevent revenge killing. Mons such as Mewtwo and Lunala could easily Dynamax and avoid a KO from GDZ/Zeraora while KOing them. This again leads to a large number of 50/50s that can be unfavourable for both sides (and a large reason why most frail breakers NEED to run a pivoting move to avoid such situations. Such users can also Dynamax to avoid a defensive mon retaliating with a KO from moves like Spectral Thief. The third application of Dynamaxing is to negate certain conditions such as Entrainment and Destiny Bond. This (again) leads to 50/50s when facing sets like NormPult but in the latter case of ignoring stuff like DBond makes Dynamaxing incredibly difficult to outplay as not only do you have to correctly predict the dynamax but you also have to stall out the turns, something very difficult to do when they have strong 130 BP moves. The final application of Dynamaxing is to gain the special effects of the Max Moves, including BP. These moves with the stat changes or field effects allow some mons to win 1v1s they normally wouldn't or potentially setup without the use of passive setup moves by using stuff like Max Knuckle, Max Airstream, and Max Ooze. This is also used on defensive mons after trapping with Anchor Shot and following up with Max Steelspike to gain def boosts to successfully outstall the opponent. This application is notably less effective, more niche, and tame compared to the other. Notice how all applications of Dynamax leads to a large number of risky 50/50s (usually on one side) that make the game very uncompetitive and luck-based. Dynamax also favours offense as defensive mons can't really take advantage of Dynamaxing with the loss of Recovery during Dynamax.

170 BP

170 BP moves are very strong, this everyone can agree. But compared to the above crap this is really much more healthy. While these moves allow users to brute force through checks one needs to realize that Water and Electric aren't exactly the greatest offensive typings. Both typings have ability immunities and Electric has a natural immunity as well. Obviously these moves aren't very threatening if you can move first with Prankster etc and there aren't a lot of great abusers (Zeraora + Barraskewda + setup Zekrom). I'm kinda on the fence for this one. Match up FISH and Lemme OHKO everything Zera are dumb but I think these moves are definitely less important to get rid off compared to other stuff. Also use Defensive Eternatus it can check these moves (Band IS Zera 2HKOs without FC though watch out).

V-create

So this move is usually at least as strong as STAB on a lot of mons which makes it good coverage option for physical mons and also is insanely strong by OHKOing most weak to it etc. etc. The stat drops are much easier to abuse though and lower pp and acc compared to 170 BPs as well as more common immunity abilities used for this makes it less dangerous and IMO not broken at all. GDZ isn't even that fast.

That was a lot of text, now on the activity of the council.
So regarding Zacian-C and Double Iron Bash I know it has only been around 2 days and one was a weekend but with such a large influx of posts from the community and complaints you would expect that the council provide more response other than the standard personal opinion response from a loser (thx for being active and open). It is very clear that least Zacian-C is beyond busted yet council is not making any actions on this and allowing ladder to devolve to degenerate strategies.

We think that Double Iron Bash and Zacian-Crowned are both potentially worthy of quick bans. We see the recent discussion and would like to hear more of people’s thoughts on both of these.

I'm glad that Council has opinions on these aspects but why does it need more thoughts and discussion from the community? It is clear that anyone who has played the ladder (one can even judge without but its better if they had experience) that these two things are unhealthy and I would trust that with an unanimous opinion from the community so far as well as the overall high competency of the council as BH players that they would be able to judge this. (Also you guys have played gen 8 as well 2 of you got reqs and 1 almost did, but hey Flint what is up with having 0 gen 8 bh games on your main like are we really going to have a tl that has played only a few friendlies? You can't even make judgments from gen 7 because you were inactive in that too near the later half of SM so like...)

That's what we want to do, and The Immortal has given us assurances that we can do that, even though it does differ slightly from pdon in that the form change isn't something that happens on the field.

So would you be clear as to what is currently preventing any actions from happening? When I asked you on discord you didn't provide a response other than a joking "every time someone complains we push it back a day" (which btw I sincerely hope is a joke) while no other council member has commented on this.
Because right now the lack of immediate action in regards to at least Zacian-C is making BH open r2 a very silly tour with such a garbage meta to play in without gentlemen agreements.

 

[theritz6262]

the only true counter to this set is Magic Bounce Tyranitar

While not exactly true, as DarmGZ with Refrigerate and Fake Out along with Extremespeed will take out Dragapult, even if you run something like Bold, that's yet more proof dynamaxing makes revenge-killing much more difficult.

 

[willdbeast]

Because right now the lack of immediate action in regards to at least Zacian-C is making BH open r2 a very silly tour with such a garbage meta to play in without gentlemen agreements.

If metagame changes occur during the middle of a round, they will take effect in the subsequent round.

So for the record if we banned it this second it wouldn't help you in round 2 I'm afraid.

 

[420LegitShucks]

i feel like shit unleashing the sword dog
i didnt think sword dog would be freed during bh open and i feel terrible knowing ive ruined it for some people
also on the topic of banning zacian-c and double iron bash im pretty sure that
1: we should wait until bh open is done
2: we shouldnt go harassing the council for waiting on a decision; they more than likely have other things to do outside of bh

 

[Ransei]

i feel like shit unleashing the sword dog
i didnt think sword dog would be freed during bh open and i feel terrible knowing ive ruined it for some people
also on the topic of banning zacian-c and double iron bash im pretty sure that
1: we should wait until bh open is done
2: we shouldnt go harassing the council for waiting on a decision; they more than likely have other things to do outside of bh

Don't feel bad for giving us the info needed to make our battle sim more accurate. This discovery affected PH but this only helps since we want the meta to function as close to the Sword and Shield games as it could and freeing unrestricted Zac-C in BH wasn't necessarily your decision despite your confirmation of its eligiblity.

As for the Zac-C and Double Iron Bash discussion the BH council has been reading through these posts and continously thinking about the best course of action everyone on the council can agree with. It won't be too long before they make a decision and they have most of the week to continue making a formal decision before it impacts BH Open even further.

As for my own opinion on both, here is a summary. I haven't played BH since the Neutralizing Gas ban but I feel I know enough to say something regarding the state of this meta.

Text

[02:20:24] #Ransei: Zac-C is like
[02:20:27] #Ransei: pdon but a dog
[02:20:55] #Ransei: but like pdon's first day
[02:21:13] #Ransei: there is something, a move as a whole that makes Zac-C more ridiculous than any other set it could carry
[02:21:40] #Ransei: once that is gone the entire community should be able to judge it based on what else it does
[02:21:47] #Ransei: but if they already fully have
[02:21:51] #Ransei: then quickban both asap
[02:23:47] #Ransei: so like
[02:23:56] #Ransei: in theory if dib was quickbanned a while ago like it should've
[02:24:03] #Ransei: this would be the perfect time to judge Zac-C

 

[Storm Eagle]

I can't believe I haven't actually posted about Octolock. This is one of the things I've had the fortune to not face very much during the Suspect Test, so admittedly it was an afterthought. The few times I came across it, not once did I feel like I was outplayed when I lost a mon, sometimes not even then. Taking a hit at -1 defenses at best is going to deal huge damage to stuff that isn't fc/scales or otherwise a bulky resist given they have pivoting moves. If by some chance your mon doesn't a pivot move, you're shit out of luck and end up losing your mon unless you get a lucky Dynamax.

One thing immediately strikes me foul here.

The best abuser currently I have found is Onyx Onix 7's Normalize Dragapult with Octolock, Multi-Attack, Taunt, and Entrainment which allows it to trap the opponent, prevent any form of retaliation, and preventing the use of moves such as Recovery, Teleport/Baton Pass, and Haze. Replays for the success of this set can be found by simply searching Onyx Onix 7 for replays.

Dragapult is still a terribad Pokemon in this meta. If a shitty mon like this can go from bad to good solely due to Octolock, there is a problem. Worse, this set doesn't feel like it has adequate counterplay. Normalize Dragapult is a bad set that rarely works because it's very predictable. A good way to beat it is to straight up PP stall it with a wall because it's very weak. Except this set focuses on limiting counterplay as much as possible. Trapping the opponent and lowering their Defenses every turn is one way to get around Dragapult's weakness with ease, all while offering little drawback.

Now I won't lie. I think fish beak are both potentially overpowered too. Possibly moreso than this. Double Iron Bash is also problematic with a high BP and flinch rate. Octolock is bad because its a trapping move that allows you to break walls, and is disliked because it stems from a frankly uncompetitive strategy. I've already put it formally. I'll just say it upfront: Octolock should honestly be banned because it feels like shit to play against while being cheese on the user's end.

Dynamax thoughts

As for Dynamax, I don't think it should be suspected, at least not right now. I don't think Shed was the factor between it being balanced or not, and if that was the case it would have gotten banned weeks ago. 90% of the time I see Dynamax used to live a hit which would normally be an obvious KO. I rarely see it used offensively except when stall breaking, and that almost never succeeds in my battles. The secondary effects of Max Moves have little actual effect on battles, unless users are looking to boost their defense with Max Steelspike in which case would be another example of it being defensively used.

Max Airstream and especially Max Ooze are a lot less common than people give them credit for. There's no good Flying-type moves in Gen 8 and Poison-type moves are ass in this meta with the only Poison-type move I see used being Poison Fang. Doesn't help when 60-70% of the meta resist those types. Eternatus can't Dynamax and all Flying-types are inherently defensive, so STAB isn't even an excuse. No one is going to run inferior coverage just so they're better during Dynamax. Max Knuckle, Chessking might have a point here, but I still don't think it's horribly common either.

And I strongly disagree most of all with the notion that Dynamax restricts teambuilding. Not once during Gen 8 have I felt like Dynamax was something I'd have to consider when building my team. I can't say the same for Shed. With Shed, it was either you have at least 3 ways to check it or you usually lose to it. The way I see things, if your improof was beaten by Dynamax, it probably wasn't a very good improof to begin with. By default I try to build my team around immunities like Primordial Sea, strong walls (usually fc/scales), or self-improof mons. What you say sounds more like an "Imposter problem" rather than a "Dynamax problem".

I agree with the 50/50s issue Chessking brought up. I don't like that aspect of Dynamax either. It could be a troublesome issue which would shift my position on the state of Dynamax. I didn't think too much about choice breaking being an issue since occasionally it would be burdensome to lose the choice buff. I know scarf DGZ has this problem. All in all I'd probably wait and play more games to get a firmer stance on the matter.

Being impartial here, I think if anything this needs more time before anyone forms a concrete opinion on whether Dynamax is overpowered or not. There are way more problematic issues to tackle currently. And sadly the community has proven repeatedly that going after controversial and unpopular things like Dynamax currently is often results in unpredictable and usually counterproductive votes. Hence why the Council was afraid of banning Shed. Specifically highlighting Rumor's post:

I think perception is a big deal because people do not always vote rationally (remember people with reqs were voting Do Not Ban on suspects last gen only because they had wanted something else suspected instead and didn't get it) but I'm gonna step away from that angle.

I didn't think this was relevant at first for Shed, but I absolutely think it's relevant here.

With that being said, I mainly wanted for us to get a few Suspects/quickbans done then come back to this later. I clearly don't see this as a high priority issue given it hasn't had much support for either side... yet. One thing to keep in mind is that the meta will evolve, for better or worse for the Dynamax mechanic. If Double Iron Bash is banned, the next best offensive Steel-type move becomes Behemoth Bash/Blade, which can help somewhat. Changes like that add up. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[Funbot28]

Hello! The BH Council is bringing the highly anticipated announcement on a few potential quickbans brought up numerous times throughout the thread and via other means.

Primarily, while there have been some big changes recently in the meta, one thing that the council unanimously agreed on is that the move Double Iron Bash is uncompetitive. It has high base power, an extremely high flinch rate, and no immunities. Only having 8 PP and being punishable by Rocky Helmet damage are really the only drawbacks, but even these can be played around. That being said, and regardless of potential future action against the newly freed dogs, the council has decided to quickban the move Double Iron Bash.

Secondly, the newly unrestricted Zacian-C has been causing quite a havoc in the current BH metagame to say the least. With phenomenal stats, a great offensive / defensive typing that enables it to threaten out and defensively come in against many threats respectively, and just general splashability as an offensive threat, Zacian-C has been truly causing quite an centralizing presence. While there are checks that can counteract Zacian-C to an extent, such as Golisopod, Steelix, Melmetal, Milotic, and Toxapex, it is apparent that most of the aforementioned checks fail to check the myriad of options that Zacian-C can utilize in order to bypass the minuscule amount of answers it already has. With all this in mind, the council believes that Zacian-C is too overbearing in it's unrestricted form, and thus will be quickbanning Zacian-C as well. Note that this still enables players to run Zacian-C via it's vanilla form equipped with a Rusted Sword (akin to regular Groudon holding a Red Orb in SM BH), however we feel that this will open up the amount of options teams have in dealing the it and thus will still enable it's restricted form to see competitive play.

This is all the news we have to give for now. Expect other updates regarding other possible suspects that posters outlined in this thread to be voted on as well. For the meantime, keep up the great activity!

Kris or The Immortal thanks in advance!

 

[Champion Leon]

i feel like shit unleashing the sword dog
i didnt think sword dog would be freed during bh open and i feel terrible knowing ive ruined it for some people
also on the topic of banning zacian-c and double iron bash im pretty sure that
1: we should wait until bh open is done
2: we shouldnt go harassing the council for waiting on a decision; they more than likely have other things to do outside of bh

You also freed Darmanitan-Zen Mode, and Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Mode and for that I am very grateful.
I view you as a helpful person who is fair, objective, and kind.

You don’t need to worry. If anything Darmanitan-Zen Mode can walk each of their STABS without fear of Photon Geyser or V-Create.

Toxapex can wall Fishous Rend forms, and both better watch out for Scarf or Band Darmanitan-Galar Zen Mode (Zacian, and Zamazenta, respectively), and that can negate these two freed mons.

I believe you are an actual pivotal researcher, because the metagame wouldn’t be the same without you.

Don’t feel bad, feel good, you alone have helped shape 4 top tier Pokemon, and they largely are a result of Gamefreak, not your own fault. They chose to give them those stats, all you did was acknowledge they lack an item requirement.

I believe you might be able to help us define and determine new mechanics research in the future.

Pat yourself on the back, this could help future form change precedents in the future, and we can ban the dogs if they are that good, while maintaining your thoughtful and well established research for further expansion, such as the upcoming expansion packs, and later realized glitches / rules.

Edit: My phone didn’t load the Funbot post above. Well my post is just as warm and full of fun!

Edit, The Second 1: Storm Eagle Hey it’s been a while! Hope all is well.
Anyways, I agree on Dragapult it has many flaws, such as Magic Bounce, Comatose + U-Turn/Volt Switch, Normal-types/Fairy-types immune you the Multi-Attack STAB, and Ghost types can just switch. Plus Toxic, Burn, Leech Seed, etc. and no form of heal, and -Ate Speed is a big pain since it is weak to Pixelate and Refridgerate like Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Mode.

Dragapult needs a Recovery of some form.

But after reading your post, doesn’t Gyarados count as an Offensive Flying type? The Speed boost even helps it use Fishous Rend (and Bolt Beak). Do you think your post could add Gary the Gyarados in it?

And...

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As for Poison, I could see Belch Unburden work in Gengar?

It can Gigantamax to trap via Max Ghost, then boost SpA via spamming Max Poison, and is Imposterproof thanks to Unburden. You could use Stuff Cheeks to trigger Petaya Berry, and gain a +2 Def boost to take priority moves with. Bear in mind by the time you finish you could be at +3 SpA or even +4 if you skip trapping. Blue Flare or Secret Sword could round it out for coverage.

 

[Storm Eagle]

As for Poison, I could see Belch Unburden work in Gengar?

It can Gigantamax to trap via Max Ghost, then boost SpA via spamming Max Poison, and is Imposterproof thanks to Unburden. You could use Stuff Cheeks to trigger Petaya Berry, and gain a +2 Def boost to take priority moves with. Bear in mind by the time you finish you could be at +3 SpA or even +4 if you skip trapping. Blue Flare or Secret Sword could round it out for coverage.

But after reading your post, doesn’t Gyarados count as an Offensive Flying type? The Speed boost even helps it use Fishous Rend (and Bolt Beak). Do you think your post could add Gary the Gyarados in it?

The problem is Gengar are frankly shit. Gengar is worse than Lunala as a Ghost-type and worse than Eternatus as a Poison-type. It's bulk is absolutely horrid and leaves no room for gimmicks. It's weaker than Lunala and Eternatus. Gyarados also doesn't run Flying-type STAB. I did say there's no good Flying-type moves. Dragon Ascent was the best physical Flying-type move and Oblivion Wing was the best special Flying-type move.

The only meta Poison-types are Eternatus and Toxapex. Gengar (nor Toxtricity should anyone mention that) isn't used. The only meta Flying-types are Mandibuzz and to an extent Corviknight. While Gyarados does have Flying-type, it's mainly used as a Water-type setup mon, as Flying-type moves don't really hit anything useful.

To answer your question about specifically Belch Gengar. No, it doesn't work, because Gengar can't actually survive a hit from anything and Dynamax doesn't fare any better against it.

252 Atk Melmetal Anchor Shot vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar: 153-180 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Zekrom Bolt Beak (85 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar: 168-198 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar: 177-208 (54.6 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar: 223-264 (68.8 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gengar is 2HKOed by basically anything. OHKOed by a lot more. I'm usually a fan of gimmicks. But I don't see this working.

 

[Champion Leon]

The problem is Gengar are frankly shit. Gengar is worse than Lunala as a Ghost-type and worse than Eternatus as a Poison-type. It's bulk is absolutely horrid and leaves no room for gimmicks. It's weaker than Lunala and Eternatus. Gyarados also doesn't run Flying-type STAB. I did say there's no good Flying-type moves. Dragon Ascent was the best physical Flying-type move and Oblivion Wing was the best special Flying-type move.

The only meta Poison-types are Eternatus and Toxapex. Gengar (nor Toxtricity should anyone mention that) isn't used. The only meta Flying-types are Mandibuzz and to an extent Corviknight. While Gyarados does have Flying-type, it's mainly used as a Water-type setup mon, as Flying-type moves don't really hit anything useful.

To answer your question about specifically Belch Gengar. No, it doesn't work, because Gengar can't actually survive a hit from anything and Dynamax doesn't fare any better against it.

252 Atk Melmetal Anchor Shot vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar: 153-180 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Zekrom Bolt Beak (85 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar: 168-198 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar: 177-208 (54.6 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar: 223-264 (68.8 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gengar is 2HKOed by basically anything. OHKOed by a lot more. I'm usually a fan of gimmicks. But I don't see this working.

So these are the Calcs after the +2 Defense?
My immediate thought is: Stuff Cheeks, which triggers +2 Defense, +1 Special Attack from Petaya Berry, and x2 Speed from Unburden. Then next turn use Gigantamax to Trap, or boost SpA, etc.

Here:
252 Atk Melmetal Anchor Shot vs. +2 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar: 76-91 (23.4 - 28%) -- 89.5% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Beak (85 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar: 93-109 (28.7 - 33.6%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash (100 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar: 88-105 (27.1 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

The Behemoth Bash does the same after G-Maxing since it doubles in power, while Gengar doubles in HP.

This is assuming I get hit on the turn I use Stuff Cheeks.

Now, if they send in the Pokemon on the turn I use Stuff Cheeks, I can Gigantamax for some extra survival to cut that damage in half again, except Vs Behemoth Bash, and even cut the damage in half Vs Reshiram.
The goal is to Gigantamax for the extra trapping and boosting.

But how much is Gengar dealing back? Even without Gigantamax

+1 252+ SpA Gengar Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Melmetal: 480-566 (101.2 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ SpA Gengar Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 282-334 (72.6 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Modest is for max damage with Unburden for Speed)

+1 252+ SpA Gengar Belch vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zekrom: 255-301 (63.1 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ SpA Gengar Belch vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Reshiram: 225-265 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If I Gigantamax:

Once the Sun is set, next turn I actually will KO Zamazenta if it stays in.

Even if Melmetal uses Haze, the sun will set and be the equivalent 50% boost for a solid 1HKO.

Against Reshiram, and Zekrom I would get up to three turns of +1 SpA off of Max-Poison and continue to sweep, now at +4 SpA, or x3 (including Petaya Berry).

Gengar is not frail, it has double defense and double HP, and gets stronger under the sun, and/or accumulates additional +1 SpA boosts. It has double Speed to KO Imposter without fear as well.

Belch is 180 base power after STAB and keeps SpA sponges like RegenVest Primarina from switching in.
——————
For Gyarados, Brave Bird is still available for Magic Guard Life Orb sets, letting it pack Shift Gear/Bolt Beak, Fishous Rend, Brave Bird, High Jump Kick, removing Stealth Rocks, and other passive damage, and keeping Pokemon like Volt Absorb Golisipod in check.

HJK is a 2HKO even on Prankster Haze Melmetal (which cuts Fishous Rend in half by going first), and doesn’t fear Flash Fire like V-Create does (which also gets cut in half by Rain from Fishous Rend).

252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Melmetal: 242-286 (51 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Magic Guard also prevents Life Orb damage during Dynamax, so you can bluff Choice Band since the foe doesn’t see recoil.

Lastly Max-Fighting accumulates +1 Attack boosts so it can switch off with Max-Flying for Speed and Attack power, not using a moveslot for Shift Gear is, now optional.

 

[CzarDusty]

Hello! The BH Council is bringing the highly anticipated announcement on a few potential quickbans brought up numerous times throughout the thread and via other means.

Primarily, while there have been some big changes recently in the meta, one thing that the council unanimously agreed on is that the move Double Iron Bash is uncompetitive. It has high base power, an extremely high flinch rate, and no immunities. Only having 8 PP and being punishable by Rocky Helmet damage are really the only drawbacks, but even these can be played around. That being said, and regardless of potential future action against the newly freed dogs, the council has decided to quickban the move Double Iron Bash.

Secondly, the newly unrestricted Zacian-C has been causing quite a havoc in the current BH metagame to say the least. With phenomenal stats, a great offensive / defensive typing that enables it to threaten out and defensively come in against many threats respectively, and just general splashability as an offensive threat, Zacian-C has been truly causing quite an centralizing presence. While there are checks that can counteract Zacian-C to an extent, such as Golisopod, Steelix, Melmetal, Milotic, and Toxapex, it is apparent that most of the aforementioned checks fail to check the myriad of options that Zacian-C can utilize in order to bypass the minuscule amount of answers it already has. With all this in mind, the council believes that Zacian-C is too overbearing in it's unrestricted form, and thus will be quickbanning Zacian-C as well. Note that this still enables players to run Zacian-C via it's vanilla form equipped with a Rusted Sword (akin to regular Groudon holding a Red Orb in SM BH), however we feel that this will open up the amount of options teams have in dealing the it and thus will still enable it's restricted form to see competitive play.

This is all the news we have to give for now. Expect other updates regarding other possible suspects that posters outlined in this thread to be voted on as well. For the meantime, keep up the great activity!

Kris or The Immortal thanks in advance!

I've tried running Zacian-C in it's vanilla form equipped with a Rusted Sword and it always tells me that Zacian-C is banned. Am I misinterpreting the post or doing something wrong or was Zacian-C banned full stop by accident therefore disallowing the form to be used while using vanilla and rusted sword to transform?

 

[SuperSkylake]

Try running Zacian @ Rusted Sword, which will cause it to transform to Zacian-C. It's the same way as running Groudon @ Red Orb last gen.