BH Balanced Hackmons

Team Name: Rust Is The Honor On A Dull Blade
Short Description: Balance around Zacian-C (who the team is named after) with a strong double steel defensive core.
How to use the team: The team is pretty simple, break stuff with Zacian and Lunala, send the steels into most of the shit or sometimes Tyranitar if you're wanting to throw in Magic Bounce. Zacian is great and needs no explanation, Volt Switch is its main form of wearing down non-ground FC switchins. Lunala is there to break shit Zacian can't (Looking at you Seismitoad), hits extremely hard and carries Volt Switch to wear down switchins over time. Fur Coat Melmetal is the epitome of physical switchins, this thing can even comfortably switch into many Zamazenta sets and non-ph bolt beak / fishious rend users, Anchor Shot + Rapid Spin can successfully out pp anything it manages to trap. Primordial Sea Ferrothorn is there mainly for Darm-GZ as the Melmetal can't take on Desoland/MoldBreaker versions and it's +Spdef and spectral to be able to check things like Reshiram, Kyurem-W, Eternatus and others that rely on Fire/Ice/Dragon/Ground coverage. Tyranitar is the Lunala/Ferro improof, normalize draga check and other common pranksters or hazard setters like Aegislash, Runerigus and Toxapex. Wobbuffet is your classic imposter for scouting and managing wincons, its moveset is pretty much up to you.
Weak match-ups: Lunala and Dawn-Wings with fighting coverage can really mess up this team, as none of the steels or ttar can do anything about it and I often have to rely on Zacian to switchin and pressure them out. Double or Triple Darm-GZ teams with multiple desolands can bypass primsea, in these mus hazards like rocks and webs are very important and after scouting items Zacian can outspeed everything non-scarfed. PH FSM users are also a pain in the ass, usually resorting to constantly spectral thieving their boosts away with ferrothorn pressure them off the field with Zacian.
Effectiveness: I started out Gen 8 BH a day before the suspect in hopes of getting a feel for the meta for the upcoming open and managed to craft something easy to use that is highly effective against the common choices of the playerbase and has tools to power through bad matchups. Perhaps may fall victim to niche strategies but that sombers every team out there.

Edit: Melmetal > Ferrothorn
Edit2: Double Iron Bash > Sunsteel Strike; Photon Geyser > Power Whip

I have the terrible habit of never saving replays so I'm sorry I can't provide any, I will try to keep this in mind and add a few in the next few days.
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Hi everyone! (And sorry for my pathetic English)

I'm not a gen8BH player but I search a lot of gen8BH sets and made a setpedia.

I know my setpedia isn't complete, I must forgot a lot of set with my lack of experience, and some sets seems to me to be garbage sets, but if the community made a true setpedia for this gen (like the past gen), I think it will help a lot of beginners.
Following on from DF Shock's preliminarySetpedia, I have compiled a list of speed tiers that may come in useful if you need to know if you can outspee something, especially after setup.

Speed tiers:

Note: All these numbers assume full evs in speed unless otherwise stated.
Speed: Name/nature/any boosts/any notes
1149: Dragapult/neutral/+4
1125: Zacian, Zamazenta / Neutral / +4
868: Zacian-Crowned/+Spe/+2
842: Dragapult/+Spe/+2
790: Zacian-Crowned/neutral/+2
788: Eternatus, Mewtwo/+Spe/+2
766: Dragapult/neutral/+2
738: Darmanitan-Galar-Zen / Neutral / +2
729: Tyranitar/+Spe/+4
718: Eternatus, Mewtwo/neutral/+2
663: Tyranitar/neutral/+4
631: Dragapult/+Spe/+1
591: Eternatus, Mewtwo/+Spe/+1
574: Dragapult/neutral/+1
562: Zacian, Zamazenta/neutral/+1
558: Reshiram, zekrom/neutral/+0/with Swift Swim, Sand Rush, Chlorophyll or Surge Surfer in appropriate weather/terrain
553: Darmanitan-Galar-Zen / Neutral / +1
538: Eternatus, Mewtwo/neutral/+1
522: Gyarados / neutral / +2
486: Tyranitar/+Spe/+2
486: Hydreigon/+Spe/+1
480: Aegislash-Blade/+Spe/+2
442: Tyranitar/neutral/+2
442: Hydreigon/neutral/+1
439: Solgaleo / Neutral / +1
438: Aegislash-Blade/neutral/+2
434: Zacian-Crowned/+Spe/+0
433: Kyurem-w/Neutral/+1
423: Zeraora / +spe / +0
421: Dragapult/+Spe/+0
412: Zacian, Zamazenta/+Spe/+0
408: Barrascuda/+Spe/+0
405: Darmanitan-Galar-Zen / +Spe / +0
395: Zacian-Crowned/neutral/+0
394: Eternatus, Mewtwo/+Spe/+0
390: Zamazenta-Crowned/+Spe/+0
385: Zeraora / neutral / +0
383: Marshadow / +Spe /+0
383: Dragapult/neutral/+0
375: Zacian, Zamazenta/neutral/+0
371: Barrascuda/Neutral / +0
369: Darmanitan-Galar-Zen / Neutral / +0
359: Eternatus, Mewtwo/neutral/+0
358: Golisopod / Neutral / +2
355: Zamazenta-Crowned/neutral/+0
324: Hydreigon/+Spe/+0
322: Solgaleo, Lunala/+Spe/+0
317: Silvally, Kyurem-B, Kyurem-W/+Spe/+0
306: Pikachu, Reshiram, Zekrom/+Spe/+0
295: Hydreigon/neutral/+0
293: Solgaleo, Lunala/neutral/+0
289: Silvally, Kyurem-B, Kyurem-W/neutral/+0
284: Chandelure/+Spe/+0
279: Pikachu, Reshiram, Zekrom/neutral/+0
270: Darmanitan-Galar-Zen / +Spe / -1 (V-Create speed drop)
261: Gyarados / neutral / +0
259: Chandelure/neutral/+0
246: Darmanitan-Galar-Zen / neutral / -1 (V-Create speed drop)
243: Tyranitar/+Spe/+0
240: Aegislash/+Spe/+0
229: Seismatoad / Neutral / +0
221: Tyranitar/neutral/+0
219: Aegislash, Jellicent, Primarina / neutral/+0
217: Type: Null/Neutral/+0
193: Hippowdon/neutral/+0
179: Golisopod, Shedinja/Neutral/+0
169: Toxapex, Doublade/neutral/+0
167: Melmetal/neutral/+0
159: Corsola-Galar, Snorlax/neutral/+0
149: Dusclops/neutral/+0
139: Ferrothorn/neutral/+0
76: Shedinja/-spe/+0/no Speed IVs

GL Volkner

oh you're crewmate? name every task
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

I will be flamed for this but whatev its just an opinion. Will be voting No Ban. While I agree that Shed is a nuisance this gen due to the flexibility of it's item slot potentially enabling it to circumvent some form of dealing with it (Boots with hazards, Ppads with anti-contact moves, and sometimes Goggles for weather residual damage), I still feel that Shed can't always perform it's role as a catch all check to many wallbreakers / defensive mons that people make it out to be. A lot of teams carry means to deal with Shed nowadays, and I feel this gen the importance of checking Shed is set to a higher importance due to the decreased power creep compared to previous gens. Whether it be through the moldy moves, Koff + Hazards, status, weather, etc, Shed will always face some form of potential counterplay one way or another despite the item it carries. This may fall in line with a level of over-centralization of course, but from what I can gather thus far, I feel Shed just offers another precaution in the teambuilding phase no different from other threats such as Zekrom, Zacian-C, Darmanitan-G, and other miscellaneous threats, one that requires even more risk to run given the nature of it's fragility. Albeit, having a great payoff if used carefully, I still feel Shed provides a competitive aspect to the tier that differs from the notion of it being a "braindead" addition to any team as one does need to build around it moreso then most "offensive wallbreakers / pivots" in the tier imo.

Now I will proceed to crawl in my hole as the rocks come flying my way lol.

edit: team i used cause i wanna be like the cool kids:
I kinda wanted to address this. No harm intended here so hopefully I don't get anyone mad off stuff I didn't say or mean.

I feel like judging a Pokemon like Shedinja based off how it can't do everything it can do all the time is flawed when the stuff that it can do is so vast in the first place. It's simultaneously a wall, a wallbreaker, a hazard setter, quality support, and a pretty safe switchin to anything you've scouted that it can wall. Sure, it's true that sometimes it can't do all this - but that's why it's not quickbanned straight up, because instead of being able to always fulfill all its roles at once, it's roles change every game. While it's true that the means of dealing with Shedinja have increased in viability, they have also decreased in availability and reliability, as has already been covered. Because of this, even though Shedinja checks are a lot easier to fit on teams, they also end up making the team worse off because stuff like Sand Stream is not only outclassed by Ice Scales, but also unreliable. Stuff like Rocky Helmet... Sure, it can work, but Pads is still good. Stuff like rocks doesnt do well because of boots. It's easy to say that you can fit all of these on a team in theory; But in practice, it's hard to ever guarantee that you'll be able to use all of these effectively because you can't control the Shedinja team your opponent uses. It's incredibly hard to make your checks work as often as they should because the concept of chip damage literally does not apply to Shedinja, it completely redefines one of the fundamental concepts in this game and makes it null and void, and centralizes this around itself and turns checking it into a game of Russian roulette.

The threats you mentioned are arguably unhealthy as well, but why even bring them up? What's the goal of this comparison? It probably hurts your argument more than it helps it, since as of late these threats have proven to be more and more difficult to answer.

It's true that Shedinja requires skill to play, but I don't feel that's a reason to keep it. If something is unhealthy regardless of how much skill it takes, it should be banned for the sake of maturing the metagame.

I'd just like to restate that no disrespect was meant with this post, so I'd appreciate it if anyone who viewed this didn't find rudeness where there is none, and look at it for what it is - a criticism to an argument and nothing more. Thanks.

Also all of my points may not make sense I wrote this when I was tired af lol sorry!!!!!!!!!
I love this list! Excadrill, Kyurem-W, etc.! I appreciate also that you took the effort to alphabetize them all.

This took a real commitment and I appreciate your work.

I think if the Setpedia is created, this will be an actual Rough Draft for them to base it on.

Just as much I appreciate the efforts made by the actual creators of the sets, I also appreciate the direction this thread is going. In an effort to preserve that, I thought of some additional resources we can use!

I propose a new listing of important Replays, posted in the OP:


1. :Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: **Balanced- A mix of Offense, Defense, and Support to cover their own team’s usual set of weaknesses often associated with 1 Playstyle, ensuring their bases are covered at the cost of specialization:

A. Sample Team:

B. Sample Replay:

C. Sample Sets:

2. :Zamazenta-Crowned: **Defensive - A core of 2-4 durable Pokemon covering each other’s weaknesses, with support from the rest of the team to outlast common Offensive threats, in order to gradually wear down and accumulate residual damage through hazards, status, etc.

A. Sample Team:

B. Sample Replay:

C. Sample Sets:

3. :Zacian-Crowned: **Offensive - Designed around
supporting multiple Wallbreakers, and/or Sweepers in order to pressure and overwhelm teams.

A. Sample Team:

B. Sample Replay:

C. Sample Sets:

4. VR of Pokemon of per Category

I feel VR by Playstyle is important, so we establish what goes where, otherwise we may rank a Jack-Of-All-Trades fairly high, due to their versatility, but they might be only average in each category, and thus, not an ideal choice worthy of immediate consideration. *Think of Arceus last generation.

Also, since the metagame is fairly small, especially compared to prior generations, it would be easier to do so, especially before any more are added (I.e. Jan 2020 Nintendo Direct).
I also think we need a section for key replays, such as the final round(s) of the BH Open, and other key tournaments so we can show the high-level of play to newer players, and possibly a little descriptive blurb depicting why a player likely made a key move that was pivotal during the match, such as a major prediction that factored into a win, or an obvious turn when someone was pressured into making a mistake.

TLDR: I think adding a section of replays would benefit everyone, to showcase what makes a team work as a unit, how a team exemplifies the build of a unique Playstyle, and where a moveset belongs within a team.

It would also be useful so people who are viewing this thread can see a sort of time capsule of where we are, as the metagame evolves.

Think of how important Ghost-types are before Shedinja’s Suspect. Then if Shedinja gets banned, imagine how less common they will become on teams. With this in mind, we can see how a replay from 1 era can exemplify what caused certain builds of teams (Pokemon, types, certain popular sets at the time), to become highly used or no longer used often.

It doesn’t have to match the exact template above, but I feel that organizing teams and the VR by Playstyle makes it easier to visualize and understand why something is good, as you highlight the environment in which it thrives, rather than just a listing of Pokemon / Sample Teams in general.

**We already plan to have sample teams, and a Setpedia, this only suggests a new organization based on Team Playstyles and an additional section for high-level Replays.
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Short PSA: Sample team submissions are (officially) closed now, but if you post in the next couple of hours I'll probably add it to the list for consideration.

Thanks everyone for the effort you put into making teams, you guys are op :]
Also make sure you sign up for the BH open if you want to get involved in it!

a loser

all I do is lose, but baby all I want's to win
is a Pre-Contributor
DISCLAIMER: These sets are still in testing and the first one is walled by FC Melmetal. Also, they are likely outclassed by other offensive sets. Nonetheless, I wanted to share an idea with you all.

When the ability Mimicry was introduced this generation, I thought it might be interesting to play with but didn't really know how it could be relevant since there were better offensive abilities available like Gorilla Tactics and Intrepid Sword. Sword is still around, but I was looking at the rise in usage of Zeraora thanks to its fast Bolt Beak and started getting some strange ideas.

Zeraora is really good right now, but its power coming from base 112 Attack got me wondering if I could use Mimicry to create a stronger Zeraora. Looking at the mons who are also fast but stronger than Zeraora left me with options like Dragapult, Zacian, Zamazenta, Barraskewda, and Darm-GZ. Of these, I chose while considering base offensive typing and bulk, which gave me Zamazenta and Darm-GZ. The sets are shown below.


Zamazenta @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Ability: Mimicry
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Bolt Beak
- Earthquake / U-turn / Shift Gear
- Photon Geyser


Darmanitan-Galar-Zen @ Choice Band / Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Mimicry
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Icicle Crash / U-turn / Shift Gear
- Bolt Beak
- Photon Geyser / Shift Gear

The movesets are chosen to take advantage of as many situations as possible. Outside of terrain, each mon has their base STAB moves, most of which are high powered and spammable. Bolt Beak is there to have a strong STAB move under Electric Terrain while Photon Geyser handles things like Shedinja or Volt Absorb Toxapex and becomes STAB under Psychic Terrain. Choice Band is used for immediate power, but other items can be used if you prefer a setup variant.

Unfortunately the boost from terrains was nerfed, but with Electric Terrain support, Zamazenta hits almost as hard and Darm-GZ hits harder than Choice Band Intrepid Sword Zeraora with Bolt Beak. They trade a little speed, meaning neither outspeed Dragapult and Darm-GZ is slower than Zacian, Zamazenta, and Barraskewa.

I've ran these alongside Electric Surge Zekrom and Choice Specs Lunala, which can Dynamax to give Psychic Terrain support. Wish support helps them last longer and is great in general this generation. The Darm-GZ is interesting to me since it can totally flip the matchup against Primordial Sea Melmetal, which normally checks it well. Unfortunately I don't have any good replays to share at the moment, but will edit them in later (if this idea pans out lol).
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Zeraora Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 313-370 (66 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal in Electric Terrain: 303-357 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal in Electric Terrain: 354-417 (74.6 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Seismitoad: 127-151 (30.6 - 36.4%) -- 56.1% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta (STAB) Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad in Psychic Terrain: 276-325 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Edit: This replay shows Darm-GZ being checked by FF Melmetal while Ice/Fire-type, but beating it later while Electric-Type.
This shows an interesting aspect of the Mimicry/Imposter interaction. Without terrain, Imposters of Mimicry mons revert to the Imposter's base typing, not the opposing mon's typing.
Darm-GZ making use of Psychic terrain to OHKO Eternatus
Darm-GZ pressuring resists and FC Melmetal with STAB Bolt Beak
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time for a long rambling post about nothing in particular now that I’m already out of bh open (rigged). Also I don’t have replays for any of this because I never save them

first I want to talk about pangoro.
:pangoro: skadoosh (Pangoro) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Throat Chop
- Close Combat
- Spiky Shield
- Octolock

you might be saying “just use Zamazenta lmao” and you are correct. Pangoro’s niche is being a dark type, which is “important” to check Lunala locked into photon or moongeist, and making it so ghosts don’t switch into your octolock. Works because there are like 0 defensive fairies outside of regular zacian. PH is actually good in order for you to not get chipped down against defense over a long game. Throat chop > knock for consistent damage when opponent is trapped.

:zacian: Zacian @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- U-turn

next we got what I use to improof skadoosh, utility pixilate zacian. Nobody is running dazzling so espeed is great for revenging things that have been worn down, assuming they don’t Dmax. Against melm and other walls knock and get the fuck out of there cause u ain’t killing them. rapid spin is stronger than you would think

:zacian-crowned: Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Blue Flare
- Volt Switch
- Stealth Rock

+SpA zac-c is actually sick cause it 2HKOs melm after any amount of chip. You can still bluff +Spe to force things out that you would kill, and you still outspeed max speed etern. against seismi set up rocks and leave. You can use sunsteel dib if you’re a coward and don’t want to coin flip for flinches.

:oranguru: Oranguru @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Rapid Spin
- Photon Geyser
- Knock Off

the only true Lunala/necrozma-d-w switchin. That’s it, that’s all it does. Regenvest so you can consistently switch in over the course of a match. Also it monkey

:necrozma-dawn-wings: Necrozma-Dawn-Wings @ Flame Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Photon Geyser
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot

self-imposterproof sweeper that sucks cause it’s still slower than zacian-c and pult when burned. Dicks on balance once those are removed though.

now my thoughts on what should be banned or not

:shedinja: - already gone into this, ban this bih

dmax - while I like some of the strategy that comes with it, it makes revenge killing really hard and I think might be unhealthy. Need more time to think on it.

:dracozolt: :victini: :Dracovish: beak/rend/vcreate - the 170+ BP moves are to strong I think, and the reasons have already been discussed here so I won’t go into it. However, I don’t think they should be tiered the same, my idea is for one suspect with 3 seperate votes for all the moves.

:grapploct: octolock - as much as I like this move and octopi i think it is probably unhealthy for the metagame. Being able to trap and remove pretty much anything in one slot without very specific counter play is probably too good. The main set is normapult w/ entrain/taunt/octo/multi-attack, which needs to be played around literally perfectly if you dont have like bounce ttar, and sometimes you still lose anyway. ban this move.

sorry for the long and rambling post, that is all

e: forgot to mention dib ban it it’s uncompetitive
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According to the Gen 8 Pure Hackmons thread:
24 days into January. I got some news

So as it turns out, there's been a sudden change in the metagame.

The statement above is outdated. Zacian and Zamazenta in their crowned formes have recently been proven usable without any item or ability restrictions! Cheers, we can do more with these formes!
The return of Zacian-C spam? 2 Zamazenta-Cs on half of teams? I've prodded the research thread for confirmation simply because it'll completely shake up BH all over again.
Zacian-C has been freed, and I am strongly in favor of a quickban of it. Some reasons for that below:

1. Limited Zacian-c is already a huge threat. The standard four attacks set runs the following: Double Iron Bash / Sunsteel Strike, Earthquake / Bolt Beak, V-Create, and U-Turn / Volt Switch. Surprise sets can opt for Shell Smash instead of a pivot move, which can surprise and defeat something like FC Melmetal after a little chip with V-Create (it does about 90%). Power Whip can also be ran to OHKO Seismatoad, but that's all it hits. Double Iron Bash has the extra feature of a 51% flinch chance, which can screw over otherwise reliable checks, but this is actually only a minor problem since it only has 8 PP that can be used.

Switchins include: FC Seismatoad (watch for Power Whip), FC Melmetal, Primordial Sea Corvuknight (loses to Bolt Beak), Primordial Sea Ferrothorn (can switch in but must run a Protect move or it risks being flinched down by Double Iron Bash), FC Eternatus (2hkoed by Sunsteel Strike). Checks need to be able outspeed Zacian-C (Choice Scarf users must have at least 90 base Speed to do this), and hit it extremely hard thanks to its excellent defensive stats and typing. Shell Smash sets can turn these checks on their heads though.

Now with a free item and ability, this mon becomes impossible to deal with. A Banded Intrepid Sword set will 2hKO Seismatoad on the switch with Sunsteel Strike (51-62%), and the huge choice of moves means that Improofing it isn't that difficult since you actually know what set it's running whereas opponents don't know, and have to take a risky switchin with Imposter. If a Band set isn't to your liking, try a Shell Smash set. You can run all sorts of abilities, from Simple to Technician to Serene Grace. Plenty of items are also useable, including Life Orb (which invalidates a lot of those switchins all on its own), White Herb, Focus Sash, or Safety Goggles + Spore. I know because I tried and played against these variations back when it was legal, and it was pretty ridiculous. Playing against it was pretty much a guessing game. There have not been any significant meta shifts to make me believe that it will be any different now.

Another problem that this will accentuate is the Species Spam issue. Freed Zacian-C is undoubtedly the best mon in the metagame, and there would be no reason not to run multiple of them on your team.

TLDR: Quick ban this please before the next round of BH Open starts. This needs to happen and soon!
Tagging off of Skylake’s post I’d like to give my thoughts on the freed doggos.

Quickban. ASAP. A lot of these points have already been outlined so I won’t harp on them for too long but Zacian is absolutely broken with a free item slot. Even not freed, Zacian is at least an A+ pokemon in my eyes, and you could probably make an argument that it is the best mon in the meta. Now open up that item slot. Even with Melmetal and all of the Fur Coat mons right now, this meta simply doesn’t have the tools to deal with Zacian and keeping it freed would warp the meta entirely around its use.

Zamazenta has gotten a lot of shit for being terrible compared to Zacian but here I think it will be viable without being overbearing. The biggest thing I see in Zamazenta is a steel type with better special bulk. Considering our best specially defensive steels right now are Solgaleo and Escavalier, that alone should give Zamazenta good reason to be used.

However, its other attributes help it out even more. Its attack stat of 130 is definitely not bad, and could lead to some offensive sets; however, regular Zamazenta might be better at that role due to it surpassing the coveted 130 speed tier and Darm. That fighting typing is definitely very nice as well, considering it can dish out good damage with STAB Body Press even without Cotton Guard shenanigans. Overall, Melmetal should definitely remain as the best steel but Zamazenta definitely should have a niche.
I know everyone is talking about Zacian now but I'd also like to request a quickban for Double Iron Bash. Game Freak was smoking Mario mushrooms when making the move. It is uncompetitive and doesn't even need a suspect test.
It's also boosted by Tough Claws for some reason, despite Bulbapedia not listing it as being affected by the ability.
Yeah please quick ban Zacian-C. This thing is like last gen's Primal Groudon except even better. I already thought Rusted Sword Zacian was one of the best Pokemon there is in the meta. It doesn't take someone skilled at BH to know that Zacian-C is completely batshit overpowered. I'll restate: It has the highest Attack stat tied with Kyurem-Black, and the second highest Speed, being only outsped by Ninjask (and Scarf users like DGZ...). It even has the luxury of having good bulk and being able to run recovery viably in its 4th moveslot.

I definitely think Zamazenta-C is a positive addition to the meta and should result in some interesting sets.

Double Iron Bash is uncompetitive, but its low PP and weakness to Rocky Helmet make me think it's probably not also quick ban worthy unlike Zacian-C. I'd agree with it if that's what others think, though.

Darmanitan-Galar-Zen is absolutely fucking insane. Even better than I originally thought, and I got suspect reqs with it. I'm not quite sure if it's banworthy, but it's probably close.

I don't agree with a V-create ban like some others have stated. There are tools to deal with it, and I don't think Mold Breaker will have as much incentive to be run with Shedinja banned.

Dragapult is still a shitmon and fortunately people are starting to catch up to that. I've seen it increasingly less as of lately.

Ice Scales is pretty great but I've been seeing so little use from Regenerator. I wonder if Regenvest or Regenband sets are still any good.

Solgaleo and Necrozma-DM are both disappointments, I've been trying them a lot and neither of them have really lived up to expectation unlike Melmetal. Even in the Special Defense department, I think Solgaleo will be replaced by Zamazenta-C.

Offensive Eternatus is really good. I've admittedly underestimated how well it can do myself. This mon is really unpredictable since it can run both offensive and defensive sets viably.

Tyranitar is disappointing and bordering on shitmon status for me. Defensive Rock-type in a meta with a ton of Steel-types, and Ground-types and Ground-type coverage to break said Steel-types, I thought Tyranitar would originally be pretty solid, but it's not very good. I also don't think there's any good Dark-type Pokemon in this meta. I don't exactly like Mandibuzz either. I know Lunala is a frightening mon to take on with Specs Moongeist, but like... I just don't see Tyranitar being good at anything but walling Lunala. That assumes Lunala isn't also running Fighting-type coverage then well Tyranitar is out of luck.

I've seen a lot of use from Primordial Sea compared to Flash Fire. I've grown to like Flash Fire more because it can block Will-o-Wisp (while I can burn Pokemon under Primsea easily). Also a lot of players will use Fire-type moves not expecting Flash Fire, but that's admittedly kinda lowish ladder stuff. I know Primordial Sea blocks Mold Breaker Fire-types, but I haven't seen very many of them as of lately.

I think fish beak are both overpowered. It's too difficult to wall both strong Electric-type and Water-type moves. Let alone the mechanics being too difficult to handle.

Golisopod is a cool PH/pivot mon. It's got deceptively good physical Defense. It can stay alive for a good while while offering a lot of utility. It's a slow pivot, can set or remove hazards, burns and deals okay damage with Scald, and has just the right resists to allow it to stall out certain Pokemon.

a loser

all I do is lose, but baby all I want's to win
is a Pre-Contributor
RIP Shedinja. Forgive them, for they know not what they do.

We think that Double Iron Bash and Zacian-Crowned are both potentially worthy of quick bans. We see the recent discussion and would like to hear more of people’s thoughts on both of these.

My brief thoughts on both:
Double Iron Bash is uncompetitive. It has high base power, an extremely high flinch rate, and no immunities. Only having 8 PP and being punishable by Rocky Helmet damage are really the only drawbacks, but even these can be played around.

Zacian-Crowned is extremely hard to prepare for now that it can pick from any ability and useful items. Most of these abilities and items nullify what were previously solid checks to it when it was restricted, like Fur Coat Seismitoad. I agree that we just don’t have the right tools to deal with this mon reliably.


is a Pre-Contributor
I’m definitely in favour of quickbanning both Zacian-C and Double Iron Bash.

Big sword dog has extremely limited defensive counterplay, is very difficult to check offensively, and is tremendously versatile. It’s just too much for the tier to deal with. Its so far above other offensive threats that it feels hard to justify not running it, and I’ve had to carry 2-3 dedicated checks for it on my teams to feel safe against it. Zac-C demonstrated its banworthiness earlier in the generation when it was free, and nothing has really changed since then except that Shed, which could sometimes check it, is gone.

Double Iron Bash is just uncompetitive, I don’t think there’s much to say about it. Looking at it purely on the grounds of power level it might not be broken, but it’s presence in the tier causes matches to come down to RNG coin flips far too often, and it allows mons to cheese their way through what should be solid checks with just a bit of luck. I don’t see any real reason to keep this around.

To clarify, if Zac-C were banned would it still be allowed with Rusted Sword and Intrepid Sword like it was earlier?
To clarify, if Zac-C were banned would it still be allowed with Rusted Sword and Intrepid Sword like it was earlier?
I don't see why it wouldn't. Red Orb Groudon is a thing. I would think Rusted Sword (or maybe Intrepid Sword) would get suspected if Rusted Sword Zacian was overpowered. Not to mention a complete ban on Zacian-C, both freed and limited, would probably be a lot less popular at this point and have a lot less support from the community.
Okay, enough already!

I'm pretty sure EVERYONE wanted Zacian-C banned from BH ever since it was allowed at the very beginning due to how hyper-centralizing and clearly superior it was compared to others. Hell, right now it's even better than it was at first given the mechanic updates on Body Press and Shedinja being recently booted, so keeping it any longer than it has already stayed is just insulting at this point.

Quickban this thing and never let it come back unrestricted again.

As for Double-Iron Bash, I've been advocating how dumb the move has been since the beginning even before Zacian was conceived. It's a crazy-abusable move that allows degenerate and frankly uncompetitive sets and strategies to steal games from others, all while breaking past Substitutes and dealing more damage than it realistically should. Even though it has 8 PP and can be punished by Rocky Helmet, it's just not worth letting exist so it could be further abused by those other than just Zacian-C.

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