BH Balanced Hackmons

Try running Zacian @ Rusted Sword, which will cause it to transform to Zacian-C. It's the same way as running Groudon @ Red Orb last gen.
Not sure what changed, but now it is working. I had it that way earlier, but it wouldn't let me use it. Maybe I needed to click validate? Because that's the only difference this time and it worked. Thanks though.

Also, yes I'm curious about a resources page as well.
 
really really really late but hey might as well.

Team name: Heaven's Wrath
Authors: Fwqef And Darkbeserker
Team importable: https://pokepast.es/243e49cb9085ef15
Short description: busted HO team designed to overwhelm checks and win
How to use the team: RMT
matchups: works great against offense teams that don't have sash spam, absolutely shreds balance and occasionally stall
doesn't do so well against certain sets, and absolutely hates Primordial Sea Steels (Can be dealt with),Sash Spam and dragapult
 
Soon, with all the recent changes / bans in place we wanted to wait a bit more until things stabilize a bit but it's mostly finished and should be up in the next couple of days.
Also, are we going to have sets posted on the smogon set site like OU does?
 
Also, are we going to have sets posted on the smogon set site like OU does?
https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/om-analyses.575/
Here you can reserve Pokemon and write analyses on them.
(One-liner whatever no metagame comments other than this meta is a lot more healthy to play although ladder is still degenerate)
(Octolock Dynamax etc still garbage to play against btw, also can we get a Species Clause or something because Spam teams are really something)
 
when are samples gonna be posted? or is that just forgotten in time.
Since the samples were submitted, Shedinja and Double Iron Bash have been banned and Zamazenta-C has been reintroduced to the meta. All of these changes have affected the meta as well as the teams that were submitted. However, we are still considering the teams that did not use Shedinja and that still appear viable in the current meta. We will choose samples from these for the time being and likely open up for more submissions once the meta gets a chance to settle.
 
first of all, thanks for the support guys, especially you Champion Leon, your post really cheered me up :D
i feel a lot better about the doggo thing now

zamazenta-crowned.gif
crowned shield doggo is now happy :D

second, i'd like to talk about a certain ability that i feel is underrated, its gorilla tactic's little cousin, hustle!
here's a sample hustle set i love to use:
darmanitan-galar-zen.gif

Darmanitan-Galar-Zen @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Icicle Crash
- Close Combat
- Bolt Beak

now let's talk about it:
hustle as an ability is very risk reward. you either hit your attacks, or you don't. this risk reward factor is insanely powerful on dgz as its already sky high attack is boosted to tremendous levels with hustle + choice band. the special thing about this set is that hustle is easy to bluff with dgz's stabs; since v-create and icicle crash can already miss, if you do miss, it wont be immediately obvious you're using hustle. unlike intrepid sword, hustle isn't immediately revealed upon switchin, and the boost can't be removed by haze/topsy-turvy. the nature of hustle also makes it easier to improof, due to the miss chance on all of the imposter's moves, so even if the imposter isnt choiced locked and able to attack your improof, there's always the chance the imposter will miss their attack and allow you to retaliate. the boost in damage hustle gives is insanely good, here's some calcs to demonstrate:

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 384-452 (81 - 95.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 217-256 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 380-448 (97.9 - 115.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 205-242 (67.4 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery (volt absorb pex for reference)

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus in Sun: 471-555 (97.3 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (ETERNATUS IS OKHOD IN SUN OH GOD WHY)

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Eternatus: 272-324 (56.1 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (apparently fc etern is a set so i put it here cus etern is a pretty good v-create switchin normally)

the only wall that isnt 2khoed by any of this things moves that i calced is fc regular darm zen with hdb so thats a pretty good way to improof this set as well as other dgzs in general

also heres a replay of hustle dgz in action: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1048213630
 
DYNAMAX:
An analysis

What Is Dynamax?

Dynamax is a new mechanic introduced into Sword & Shield, it lasts 3 Turns and immediately doubles a mon’s HP and grants it the use of micro Z-moves with special effects when its in its Dynamax State. It also makes the user immune to weight based moves like Low Kick, phasing moves like Dragon Tail or Whirlwind, and also removes the effects of items like choice band or scarf (items like leftovers and Life Orb still work though).

What impact does it have on the BH metagame?

So far Dynamax has been a staple of the BH metagame in both Defensive and Offensive situations. It allows the user to live just about any unboosted hit at full health and often 2HKOing opposing mons with max moves. On the defensive spectrum it can completely wall things it wasn’t designed to check, which also makes revenge-killing imposter or sweepers near impossible.

Who makes primary usage of Dynamax?

Imposter - Imposter is almost always one of the best candidates for Dynamax given its already unheard of amount of bulk, which makes it nearly unkillable when Dynamax is active. For example a Dynamax Imposter of DesoLand Darmanitan-GZ can survive a banded V-create and OHKO DGZ back with Max Flare.

Zekrom - given Zekrom’s absurd attack stat and surprisingly good natural bulk, Zekrom is often used for dynamaxing late or early game due to Max Lightning setting terrain and giving a 1.3x boost to all of its electric STAB.

Reshiram - on the special side, Reshiram is one of the best options as offense things go. Mold Breaker sets can OHKO every steel in the metagame outside of Primordial Sea, and 2HKOs most special wall, especially if carrying setup moves with Mold Breaker.

Why is it broken?

In my eyes, Dynamax is broken for a multitude of reasons, one of them being the overall uncompetitiveness in its wake. As if the opponent clicks the right max move to surprise a switch-in. The switch-in either can’t counter it anymore, or just gets outright OHKO’d. Such is the case with Choice Specs Lunala being locked into Moongeist Beam against a normal type. It can dynamax to free the choice lock and nail predicted switch-ins like Tyranitar with a max move. Another case is with Desolate Land Darmanitan-GZ and FC Seismitoad. Seismitoad can wall a predicted V-create but is KO’d by Max Overgrowth if DGZ dynamaxes. Next on the issues with Dynamax, is the effects that they give. It has potential to give instant setup options with Max Knuckle, set up weather or set up terrain to just about any offensive or even defensive option, even allowing pixilate and other move changing abilities to take effect on it. Which on the topic of effects, it can let sweepers sometimes beat out other sweepers with a Max Phantasma or Max Wyrmwind due to stat drops they give. Due to this all of this, I believe that Dynamax in itself is broken and should either be quickbanned or suspected.

Credits:
Written By: DarkBeserker
QC’d By: a loser









 
first of all, thanks for the support guys, especially you Champion Leon, your post really cheered me up :D
i feel a lot better about the doggo thing now

View attachment 221843crowned shield doggo is now happy :D

second, i'd like to talk about a certain ability that i feel is underrated, its gorilla tactic's little cousin, hustle!
here's a sample hustle set i love to use:
View attachment 221839
Darmanitan-Galar-Zen @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Icicle Crash
- Close Combat
- Bolt Beak

now let's talk about it:
hustle as an ability is very risk reward. you either hit your attacks, or you don't. this risk reward factor is insanely powerful on dgz as its already sky high attack is boosted to tremendous levels with hustle + choice band. the special thing about this set is that hustle is easy to bluff with dgz's stabs; since v-create and icicle crash can already miss, if you do miss, it wont be immediately obvious you're using hustle. unlike intrepid sword, hustle isn't immediately revealed upon switchin, and the boost can't be removed by haze/topsy-turvy. the nature of hustle also makes it easier to improof, due to the miss chance on all of the imposter's moves, so even if the imposter isnt choiced locked and able to attack your improof, there's always the chance the imposter will miss their attack and allow you to retaliate. the boost in damage hustle gives is insanely good, here's some calcs to demonstrate:

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 384-452 (81 - 95.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 217-256 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 380-448 (97.9 - 115.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 205-242 (67.4 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery (volt absorb pex for reference)

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus in Sun: 471-555 (97.3 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (ETERNATUS IS OKHOD IN SUN OH GOD WHY)

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Eternatus: 272-324 (56.1 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (apparently fc etern is a set so i put it here cus etern is a pretty good v-create switchin normally)

the only wall that isnt 2khoed by any of this things moves that i calced is fc regular darm zen with hdb so thats a pretty good way to improof this set as well as other dgzs in general

also heres a replay of hustle dgz in action: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1048213630
Double the Darm-Z! Yipee!

I am so proud of you! You literally made an epic, humongous comeback from feeling bad, to feeling pretty rad!

I am excited to encourage others to explore Hustle as well. I used to promote it, and it was actually a set used last generation for Hoopa-Unbound because of a never-miss move.

One thing to recognize, however, is that Hustle doesn't impact the accuracy of Dynamax Moves! So, like Z-moves last generation, if you need to hit with Hustle during a pivotal turn, where a miss will cost you? Dynamax your Attack, and deal it right smack in their face!

While Choice Items are diabled during Dynamax, V-Create sets the sun (50% boost), Bolt Beak sets the Electric Terrain (30% boost + anti-sleep!), and Icicle Crash's power gains almost 50% from its Max-Ice equivalent attack (plus 6.25% from hail pushes it to 50%+), while Close Combat literally grants +1 Atk, so it is like you are using a Choice Band thanks to the boosts afforded to it. It's like a pseudo Choice Band, so you never miss! And never miss out on those same key KOs!
--------------------
Dynamax can certainly benefit Offensive Pokemon, but I also value the power of Defensive Pokemon that can Dynamax for double their HP. Overall, Dynamax is always acknowledged for the Offensive benefits, but people skip the often ignored Defensive benefits.

Afterall, if you send in a check for something that you thought was Choiced, but it just used Shell Smash, Dynamaxing to double your HP just negated that boost. Plus, Defensive checks often lack the power to force out offensive foes, or ever KO them, but Dynamax can turn a Primarina into a surprisingly powerful Water attacker from Max-Water + Rain.

Also, Dynamax can disable a few items like the aforementioned Choice Items, so not all is lost, as my point earlier on the stat, terrain and weather boosts only occur upon successful activation, so Flash Fire/Primordial Sea, Volt Absorb/Ground-types, Ghost-types, etc. can all switch in and block whichever move they are immune to, ultimately preventing its effect completely (such as Flash Fire Aegislash / Eviolite Doublade blocking Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Mode's V-Create, and Close Combat).
---------------------
Also, I would like to suggest we stop trying to focus so much on metagame ban/policy changes, it's hard for us to settle if everything keeps moving. I don't mind the policy changes in good measure, but people just try to bandwagon for another next suspect as if the generation is about to end.

We have to bear in mind that as the expansion pack is released, many of our expectations will immediately impact a new metagame, and we cannot assume that something that is released in just a few months will necessarily warrant us trying to make as many changes now as if they will be something we keep. It's a constantly moving metagame, where even in the summer after the first expansion pack, we immediately await as we get a second expansion pack released in the final quarter of the year, unstabilizing something we are trying to still establish ourselves and our metarelevant data/mechanics in the new generation.

For more context, I encourage people to review this point on tiering, and metagame expectations, because unlike prior generations, we have multiple equivalents of 3rd versions (hundreds of additional new/old *i.e. more* Pokemon, plus all of the re-released/new moves, forms, abilities, items, etc.) that occur, not once, but twice within just 1 year after a game's release. We owe it to ourselves to be realistic, so... how much will some people's want to ban something like an entire mechanic change in Dynamax, make sense, if we would have to consider having to unban it all over again if it isn't that big of a threat after all?

So yes, now is its own metagame, but since we evolve with the new releases, how much of it will matter in 4 months? We are not freezing BH in pre-expansion pack eras, so we may as well think of the long-term, because even if we do not know what the packs will completely include, we can at least focus on more specific demanding needs, than a general mechanic change that lasts 3 turns.
 
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Also, I would like to suggest we stop trying to focus so much on metagame ban/policy changes, it's hard for us to settle if everything keeps moving. I don't mind the policy changes in good measure, but people just try to bandwagon for another next suspect as if the generation is about to end.”
but why? we are just trying to make the metagame better and an actually enjoyable OM. it’s obvious that there is a fuck ton of uncompetitive and or broken things in this new gen that haven’t gone over too well. take a look at shed, last gen it wasn’t broken as the community decided against banning it. But when Gen 8 came around, the introduction of heavy duty boots,Removal of pursuit and the overall removal of almost every legendary in the metagame tipped the community over the edge, so they gave opinions and decided to ban it. if we dont end up banning things we are gonna be headed into an broken metagame with a dead community. the community evolves with voice, not stagnation. take a look at things like octolock or dynamax. on paper they don’t look too bad right? but most people have decided that its unhealthy and should be tested, that’s perfectly fine and what should be expected this early in a new generation of BH. But if we decide to just ignore it, people will just start getting more upset with how the metagame is playing and will most likely end up quitting or outright leaving it altogether (Look at Unreleased Zacian). overall it’s alot more effective if we suspect more things (or at least have a vote) on a possible broken topic, then to leave it alone and make people upset.
 
but why? we are just trying to make the metagame better and an actually enjoyable OM. it’s obvious that there is a fuck ton of uncompetitive and or broken things in this new gen that haven’t gone over too well. take a look at shed, last gen it wasn’t broken as the community decided against banning it. But when Gen 8 came around, the introduction of heavy duty boots,Removal of pursuit and the overall removal of almost every legendary in the metagame tipped the community over the edge, so they gave opinions and decided to ban it. if we dont end up banning things we are gonna be headed into an broken metagame with a dead community. the community evolves with voice, not stagnation. take a look at things like octolock or dynamax. on paper they don’t look too bad right? but most people have decided that its unhealthy and should be tested, that’s perfectly fine and what should be expected this early in a new generation of BH. But if we decide to just ignore it, people will just start getting more upset with how the metagame is playing and will most likely end up quitting or outright leaving it altogether (Look at Unreleased Zacian). overall it’s alot more effective if we suspect more things (or at least have a vote) on a possible broken topic, then to leave it alone and make people upset.
Yes, I don’t think we should completely stop, like I said “I don't mind the policy changes in good measure, but people just try to bandwagon for another next suspect as if the generation is about to end.”
I.e. Too much so soon.

This can make it feels like a campaign for change so rapidly it can also discourage people from playing if they feel like they are having to constantly adjust teambuilding, establish what is good/metagame worthy, and may simply feel like we didn’t settle between one ban to the next. Afterall, we cannot submit sample teams, and even a loser stated “once the meta gets a chance to settle”, which it never will if we try and make changes just about over a week since something else ended.

While we cannot please everyone, it’s a little rushed, and that doesn’t mean I necessarily disagree with all of the changes that were done. For example, I agree Zacian-Crowned was too powerful without an it’s item/ability lock.

Furthe, I am sure during each Expansion Pack people will actually show more interest, and gain interest in BH, just like a new 3rd version does in the middle of a generation.
If anything, having to spend more time reviewing and changing the metagame can take the fun out of it because it forces people to reconsider if they can use something. Dynamax specifically affects any type of player, and it goes from teambuilding choices to sudden surprises during a pivotal turn, and can benefit both offense and defensive strategies so it seems more balanced in practice.

I feel that this is why Nintendo is doing this, they want to keep things going in spurts so it is a consistent growth, unfortunately that doesn’t really always translate well here because instead of adding more we are emphasizing removing something that isn’t one-sided because both players can use the mechanic with the same limits.

My point is; I feel Dynamax, specifically, is so general because it can save your team’s check from a sweep, or save your sweeper from being revenge killed (such surviving a priority move), that it balances out to not be a strictly overpowered offensive burden.

Things like Zacian-Crowned are banned because it is so clearly one-sided and only benefits users to go all in and pick it as the top dog (pun intended), so much so that a team having more than one was not a detriment, like it is for many other Pokémon.

It, unlike Dynamax, was not something any player could just use at any given moment, and if you decided not to use it during a match it occurred during Teambuilding, while Dynamax is Free to use at any point by both players regardless of their team (except Legendaries), so it is a mechanic and not just a single teambuilding choice.

I understand your point, and I do respect it, but I also feel some people will get detached because they feel it’s this fast rolling ball that never stops and they may end up giving up on trying to stay up to date on changes so frequent, especially newer players who feel like they have to rethink how to use something over and over again.

Also, my point above was on how we are trying to decide on banning more general things like Dynamax, but how I feel specific things like Pokemon individually is okay, because you can simply have a team without that item, ability, Pokemon, etc. while Dynamax can be used at any point, and affect anyone who plays, generally,
Like what I said here:

“We are not freezing BH in pre-expansion pack eras, so we may as well think of the long-term, because even if we do not know what the packs will completely include, we can at least focus on more specific demanding needs, than a general mechanic change that lasts 3 turns.”
 
so i see my last post about hustle dgz got some good reception, so i decided to talk about another ability i think is underrated; this time its not something that's not probably outclassed by another ability. i want to talk about one of my favorite abilities, magic guard!

here are some sample sets using magic guard that i think are noteworthy:

darmanitan-galar-zen.gif

Darmanitan-Galar-Zen @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Icicle Crash
- High Jump Kick
- Volt Tackle

necrozma-dawn-wings.gif

Necrozma-Dawn-Wings @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
IVs: 0 Def
- Shell Smash
- Moongeist Beam
- Photon Geyser
- Spectral Thief

duraludon.gif

Duraludon-Gmax @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Steel Beam
- Dynamax Cannon
- Earth Power

now lets go into these sets in detail:

dgz: so a popular item on dgz is heavy duty boots due to its 4x weakness to stealth rock, which makes people not immediately jump to the conclusion of dgz having magic guard, which makes them assume that their answer to dgz isnt in much danger due to the lack of a boosting item; but oh how wrong they are. i understand that v-create is the go-to fire move on dgz, but flare blitz is not only still very strong, but also has no downsides thanks to magic guard removing the recoil from life orb, has 100% accuracy unlike v-create's 95%, and a rare (but still useful) 10% burn chance. high jump kick is stronger than close combat, so its able to 2kho ff/primsea melmetal without a damage boosting ability and tank a sunsteel strike/whatever attack melmetal uses in return. volt tackle sounds like a downgrade to bolt beak, but volt tackle helps against things like prankster pex/goli because of its consistent 120 bp at all times, and lack of any recoil thanks to magic guard.

necrozma-dw: this is more of a late-game sweeper set that could be used on really any pokemon, but i chose necrozma-dw because its a bit easier to improof by itself than other mons due to its 4x weakness to spectral thief. 0 def ivs and mild nature lets it okho imposter with shell smash boosted spectral thief thanks to a focus sash. magic guard is useful because the immunity to entry hazards makes it much easier to set up. inspired by this team: https://pokepast.es/5d6d326ddf23a696

duraludon: definitely a meme set, was just looking for a mon to take advantage of magic guard steel beam and dura was really the only good abuser. probably could be viable with webs/glare support tho. dynamax cannon is your dragon stab that nukes non-steel steel resists like pex and zek/resh and hits dynamaxed mons harder, and earth power hits flash fire/primsea steels. still an unset and walled by ice scales crowned zama, but at least it doesnt insta-die to fire moves so a fc set could work ig.

DarkBerseker said:
Also, I would like to suggest we stop trying to focus so much on metagame ban/policy changes, it's hard for us to settle if everything keeps moving. I don't mind the policy changes in good measure, but people just try to bandwagon for another next suspect as if the generation is about to end.”
but why? we are just trying to make the metagame better and an actually enjoyable OM. it’s obvious that there is a fuck ton of uncompetitive and or broken things in this new gen that haven’t gone over too well. take a look at shed, last gen it wasn’t broken as the community decided against banning it. But when Gen 8 came around, the introduction of heavy duty boots,Removal of pursuit and the overall removal of almost every legendary in the metagame tipped the community over the edge, so they gave opinions and decided to ban it. if we dont end up banning things we are gonna be headed into an broken metagame with a dead community. the community evolves with voice, not stagnation. take a look at things like octolock or dynamax. on paper they don’t look too bad right? but most people have decided that its unhealthy and should be tested, that’s perfectly fine and what should be expected this early in a new generation of BH. But if we decide to just ignore it, people will just start getting more upset with how the metagame is playing and will most likely end up quitting or outright leaving it altogether (Look at Unreleased Zacian). overall it’s alot more effective if we suspect more things (or at least have a vote) on a possible broken topic, then to leave it alone and make people upset.
as much as i think that ban discussion is healthy for the lifespan of a metagame, i think there has to be a limit to how much discussion is about bans. if the forum becomes pages upon pages of ban discussion like when sword doggo was freed, actual discussion on things like meta trends, set discussion, and team building becomes buried in the endless waves of ban posts. we dont want people who just want to talk about the meta become a vocal minority, do we?
tl;dr, ban discussion is healthy, but lets not try to make it the only thing people talk about in this forum. we dont want another bh open r2.
 

you thought i was done? nope not yet

DARMANITAN-GALAR-ZEN

Why it's broken:
Darmanitan is by far the most broken offensive threat the metagame has seen thus far, being able to OHKO nearly the entire metagame while everything else gets 2-3HKO'd even as a direct counter, given its nearly unresisted STAB and perfect coverage options. thus makes it nearly uncounterable to nearly the point of unrestricted Zacian or Double iron bash. not even to mention it's incredible Stats, which grants it a nearly unrivaled speed tier and offensive capability, not to mention giving it the ability to Dynamax

What can it Run?: it can run pretty much anything you can think about, it normally runs Intrepid sword or Mold Breaker, but it can run other things like desolate land or Refrigerate, it can be extremely broken with just about any offensive ability you give it. as they can all justify running it on a certain team.

effect on the metagame: in the current state of the meta, Darmanitan is just about the best pokemon you can run given it has absolutely no counters given the lack of solid options and Dynamax. as Desolate land blasts through Primordial Sea mons like Ferrothorn and Melmetal, along with Seismitoad with a solar blade. Mold breaker beating nearly all fur coats or flash fires with v-create and icicle crash. and Intrepid sword beating everything in between. along with the aforementioned ability of Dynamax to possibly sun boost its already stupid high attack stat. in my opinion, it's overall more warping to the current metagame then freed Zacian ever was.

what can we do?: for the very least we could restrict it from using Dynamax, aside from that maybe give it either a quick ban or a suspect due to it warping the meta to such an extent, keep in mind it can be dealt with, but not consistently in any manner​
 
First of all, I made a new Setpedia, it is updated, and I have add some sets and deleted some I found unviable.


Also, I wanted to give some thoughts about suspects:
- I think BH is not as unbalanced as it was at the start of gen8. We have several ways for teambuild, we can effectively play several tactics (HO, Rain, ParaSpam, Balanced...).
- However, many complain and request that a suspect take place, but they did not necessarily agree on the subject of the suspect.
- Among the things to suspect test, we have Dynamax, Darm-GZ, Intrepid Sword, V-create, Fishious Rend, Bolt Beak, Octolock.
- Personally, I am for a suspect test of Intrepid Sword and V-create. A Darm-GZ suspect won't bother me either and I'm against a Dynamax or Octolock suspect.

Since the opinions seem to diverge, I propose to the council to make a poll (like the gen7BH poll in the end of gen7) to know :
1- If a suspect test is really necessary or if it's just for the sake of some.
2- What suspect, players really want to have.
 

GL Volkner

burst into flames
is a Tiering Contributor
nonono very specifically please suspect octolock if you have to suspect anything like seriously please wtf literally every octolock suspect is aids how can you be against an octolock suspect like wtf please please council if you have to suspect anything suspect octolock like srsly i dont even know how to convince you it's dumb it's just like rly fucking dumb fuck mamp's zacianc fuck that pult fuck everything that runs octolock i want to die
 
My Thoughts On The Current State of the metagame:
- BH is a lot better than launch but still pretty broken, like what DF Shock said. it's possible to teambuild but much harder than it should be due to all the unhealthy abilities and mechanics right now, but with a few balances it could be a lot better and enjoyable
- Please suspect Darm-Z and Dynamax for the sake of my sanity
- along with df-shocks point, let's just have a public poll out with the options he said, and whatever gets the highest votes we suspect or vice versa
 
I feel like Gen 8 BH is gradually dying. I see few battlers/battles when I click “Watch Battles” to see why finding a battle takes so long, I see little interest or discussion both here, and PS!, and until the new expansion pack it seems like many of the things that need to be explored either already have, or are not of enough motivated interest to promote or experiment with, for most people new to BH, or people who have played for it since BH Gen 5 (it’s inception).

We need to breathe new life into this metagame. It’s not a good sign when we feel inherently limited, because even interested people have started to lose interest due to lack of overall community enthusiasm / participation.

Can we do something that can bring forth new life? The OM analysis are a slow start, the BH Open was interesting for a time, but I think it’s nigh we look at what we want from this metagame, and not just bans/suspects, but what we have come to expect from BH that we just are not getting. Do we not have enough options for Pokemon role compression? Are we struggling with the reality that we do not have the simple sheer volume we once had to pick from last generation, and now we feel entitled?
No matter the answer, for any metagame, it is not healthy if we see more and more time pass between posts with zero new activity in even the related threads like the BH Central Resources, and Created and Underrated threads.

I know my post doesn’t necessary propose a solution, but at least I am acknowledging there is a problem, and I think we need to address it. After all, what will get people playing again?

Everyone might have a different answer, but if we at least try to do more to answer some of their reasoning, we can stop this metagame from basically becoming a victim of the Dexit generation. If BH cannot be saved, that likely will dictate a pattern for smaller OMs, as the playerbase for OMs overall has dwindled too. Now, since BH is the largest OM, traditionally speaking, it’s surprising that even it is not an exception to the smaller pool of players.

Let’s have a community discussion on what we need to regain the glory BH once had. Afterall, I don’t see much activity, and while that may be due to simply waiting for a poll, what can we discuss in the meantime?

What if the poll above is not going to happen, do we not discuss anything else?
 
thanks for the post, i guess i'll share my thoughts here too regarding the current state of gen 7 bh.

first of all i will say that periods of inactivity on the forum don't necessarily indicate the meta being "dead"; last gen the forum activity slowed down a lot especially closer to the end. however, there are other ways of measuring activity.

there have been 253 messages in the bh metagame channel in the last week. this isn't super concerning to me on its own because earlier weeks had more "healthy" levels of 1000+, but i'm worried that this might not be an outlier.

in both december and january, gen 7 bh got almost twice the amount of ladder plays that gen 8 bh did.

to me there's definitely an issue here. here are some of the roots that it has imo:

one of the biggest problems in my eyes is council inactivity. the council isn't completely inactive, which is keeping the meta alive, but as it is they kinda just pop up every couple weeks or so to discuss bans. loser has been the only one actually posting outside of council-related things.

pretty much everyone sees problematic things in the meta rn (shoutouts to team vcreate) but we don't even know what the council thinks on the matter, because they haven't posted. why bother posting if the people who can actually do something aren't willing to engage?

this kind of leads into the next issue, flaws with the meta. we are playing with the pdons, the water bubbles, the psychic surges of gen 8 free. consistency is limited. there's too much sauce and it takes focus away from the nuances of building and playing that really separate the good players from the bad ones.

i don't think dexit necessarily has an impact on the quality of the metagame, but i haven't thought about that too much. paging pseudo intellectuals xavgb Chazm please help

the final issue to me is the lack of longevity in the meta. tiering decisions feel almost pointless when the dlc is just gonna shake everything up in a few months. is something like darm or zeraora going to be problematic when we have all the legendaries back? is preserving such a short metagame worth it?

anyway i can't think that much right now (might edit this post) but i think we have a few ways to fix this, such as:
  • more quickbans, we don't even necessarily need a super active council for this, just get things done so we can have some competitive play in like ompl. to a certain extent it doesn't even matter what we remove, anything that reduces the sauce level is appreciated
  • more active council (PAY COUNCIL)
  • stop calling bolt beak and fishious rend "fsms"
  • make gen 7 the main meta again until after the dlc comes out (serious suggestion) (actual serious suggestion) (there are no fun sets in gen 8) (actually do this cause i know youre not gonna do the others)
  • hire shakeitup to post in ompl commencement thread
  • spam bringbacknationaldex on tpc tweets and have engaging discussion on discord where we think of how best to roast the guys who think theyre clever for replying "i dont remember asking"
  • secret suggestion (youll find out if you have a badge)
  • tourban blunder and ctc
thank you for reading
 
For a while, I thought that the low activity on the Gen 8 ladder was due to Gen 7 still being available on the ladder. I didn't really blame people, as Gen 7 was more developed than Gen 8 and all the kinks hadn't been worked out yet. I was glad, but sad, to see Gen 7 BH finally drop from the ladder as I hoped it would get the people who had stuck with it to become interested in Gen 8 BH. I think this was the case, at least at the start of this month, but the ladder is still looking pretty inactive most of the time.

I scrolled through the Gen 8 BH ladder rankings today, looking for names that stuck out to me as people who also played Gen 7 BH. While there are probably more I missed, I saw about 46 names I recognized from the last gen. 65% of these names do not have or are not active on Smogon, and 40% of those names are highly ranked on the ladder. So there is a decent portion of high ladder players in the current meta that are not voicing their opinions either here or on discord.

Take a look at the top 25 as of posting this:
BH Top 25 markup.jpg
While there are quite a few alts here, of the 16 individual players in this picture, 10 of them are not participating in metagame discussions. I think missing out on some of the better and more active players' opinions is not helping us grow as a metagame.

Another thing that strikes me so far in this generation is the gap between high and low ladder play. If you watch a sub 1100 rank BH game, you never know what you're going to find. If you're lucky, its an OU team that has actually tried to optimize itself for BH, but most of the time its a pretty random assortment of creative garbage. I'm not sure if dexit is to blame, but low ladder teambuilding seems to be at rock bottom. Last gen, at least low ladder players had a wider range of toys to pick from, like the Mega Mewtwos, Mega Rayquaza, and more mons in general. Basically, mons more capable of putting up a fight against a good team than say, Togedemaru or Trevenant.

This combined with a smaller active player base does make it hard to find games on the ladder, especially competitive ones. On a typical day, I see about four to eight ladder games going on at any moment, which isn't a lot. This means you either have about a five minute wait to find a low-to-mid ranked game or, if you're on while another decent player is on, you'll play about three games with them during your ladder session. From experience, I can admit this can get stale fairly quickly. Especially if you're stuck facing rain or sun spam teams (thanks Ivar57 lol).

This leads me into another topic, which is what I see as the most pressing issue for our metagame: V-create, Fishious Rend, and Bolt Beak. These three moves, especially when combined on a team or even one mon, are extremely straining on teambuilding. It is very hard to prep for all three of them in one team without opening yourself up to other threats, like special attackers. Each of these moves also get boosts from sun, rain, and Electric Terrain, respectively, and can make walling them even harder. Anyone who has laddered recently will have seen an assortment of teams using rain, sun, or Terrain to support their wallbreakers. While these are very matchup dependent, they can be very hard to play against if you have the wrong defensive core. Mainly because weather or Terrain boosted 170+ Base Power moves are just freaking hard to wall without a specifically devoted phsyical wall or an immunity ability.
we are playing with the pdons, the water bubbles, the psychic surges of gen 8 free
SL42 speaks to this in this statement. I don't think that Darmanitan-GZ, Zeraora, and Barraskewda are broken on their own. They just happen to have high Attack and Speed stats along with access to 170+ Base Power STAB moves. Below, I show some calcs of these mons with their broken moves being used against potential checks to them and compare them with the next best STAB move for each mon. Surprisingly, Zeraora was the only one whose NHKO didn't change but only because Bolt Strike's impressive Base Power (but it does have the miss chance and less PP). In the calcs, I also included "Gen 8 BH Mew" which came from the average base HP and Defense of the current BH VR (97 HP and 103 Defense). This is to show the raw power difference between the broken moves and the next best options. All calcs are shown with the offensive mon using Intrepid Sword + Choice Band.
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Zen V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Seismitoad: 166-196 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Seismitoad: 111-131 (26.8 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Zeraora Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 313-370 (66 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Zeraora Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 240-283 (50.6 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 334-394 (70.4 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 196-232 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Zen V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def "Gen 8 BH Mew": 543-640 (136.4 - 160.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def "Gen 8 BH Mew": 363-427 (91.2 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Zeraora Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def "Gen 8 BH Mew": 396-466 (99.4 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Zeraora Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def "Gen 8 BH Mew": 303-357 (76.1 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def "Gen 8 BH Mew": 423-498 (106.2 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def "Gen 8 BH Mew": 249-294 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I think these calcs show that the power of these moves is just too much for the mons we have available to handle.

Hopefully I haven't rambled on too much and lost you, but in case I have I'll throw in a TL;DR for my summary.

TL;DR: Several current good players are absent from metagame discussions. Ladder play is limited due to smaller active player base and large skill gap between high and low ladder. This is compounded by broken moves making building hard and results in ladder play being really inconsistent.
 
I’m honestly a fan of the nuclear meta. I love clicking the nuke moves, it’s just very satisfying. We have fur coat, ice scales, water absorb, flash fire, primordial sea and desolate land, it’s not impossible to take on the spam teams (the rain team gets absolutely plowed by a special attacking desolate land user for example). I do feel that any tiering decision is kind of pointless when the meta will be shaken up dramatically twice more with DLC. Is there any real reason not to just follow a natdex format so we can get a look at what the “true” gen 8 long term BH meta will look like? I think aggressive action is needed, even if it breaks precedent for “possible on cart”.
 
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Gen 8 activity across all metagames is down compared to gen 7, OU being the least affected obviously. If you take LC for example, their ladder is half as active as a year ago. Heck, in terms of only numbers, BH is doing even better than LC. There isn’t a need to make drastic decisions at this point. OMs has gotten to a good place on Smogon and I’d like to keep it that way. So, NatDex isn’t even an option that will be considered. If you’d like, use the NatDex forum - there’s a thread there.

I do agree with Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request), mostly. It is the responsibility of metagame leaders to make attempts to drive up activity. As for the suggestions, while gen 7 BH is the most popular OM, making it the “main” format isn’t really feasible. Imagine participating in OMGS and playing gen 8 versions of 4 metagames and then gen 7 BH. Yes the DLCs shaking things up is an issue but every format will be dealing with that issue. These are the cards we were dealt and we must do our best with it. The current gen 8 metagame pre-dlc does need to continue to be balanced, even if it’s going to drastically change, for the sake of competitive tournaments like the OM Circuit and OMPL, and I guess ladder in general.

Also, yes, we should extend the blunder and CTC ban to OM since 1v1 is now a subsection of us and it was a “major” tour.
 

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