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Also, I wanted to give some thoughts about suspects:
- I think BH is not as unbalanced as it was at the start of gen8. We have several ways for teambuild, we can effectively play several tactics (HO, Rain, ParaSpam, Balanced...).
- However, many complain and request that a suspect take place, but they did not necessarily agree on the subject of the suspect.
- Among the things to suspect test, we have Dynamax, Darm-GZ, Intrepid Sword, V-create, Fishious Rend, Bolt Beak, Octolock.
- Personally, I am for a suspect test of Intrepid Sword and V-create. A Darm-GZ suspect won't bother me either and I'm against a Dynamax or Octolock suspect.
Since the opinions seem to diverge, I propose to the council to make a poll (like the gen7BH poll in the end of gen7) to know :
1- If a suspect test is really necessary or if it's just for the sake of some.
2- What suspect, players really want to have.
nonono very specifically please suspect octolock if you have to suspect anything like seriously please wtf literally every octolock suspect is aids how can you be against an octolock suspect like wtf please please council if you have to suspect anything suspect octolock like srsly i dont even know how to convince you it's dumb it's just like rly fucking dumb fuck mamp's zacianc fuck that pult fuck everything that runs octolock i want to die
My Thoughts On The Current State of the metagame:
- BH is a lot better than launch but still pretty broken, like what DF Shock said. it's possible to teambuild but much harder than it should be due to all the unhealthy abilities and mechanics right now, but with a few balances it could be a lot better and enjoyable
- Please suspect Darm-Z and Dynamax for the sake of my sanity
- along with df-shocks point, let's just have a public poll out with the options he said, and whatever gets the highest votes we suspect or vice versa
Yeah we should make a poll, players now have more different thoughts about the things that you can say it’s broken but otherwise not. Personally please suspect DarmGZ, that’s why V-Create is so broken right now, VC alone is basically a STAB Close Combat. Against Intrepid Sword as it’s punished by Imposters more easily than other abilities. Yes Dynamax please
I feel like Gen 8 BH is gradually dying. I see few battlers/battles when I click “Watch Battles” to see why finding a battle takes so long, I see little interest or discussion both here, and PS!, and until the new expansion pack it seems like many of the things that need to be explored either already have, or are not of enough motivated interest to promote or experiment with, for most people new to BH, or people who have played for it since BH Gen 5 (it’s inception).
We need to breathe new life into this metagame. It’s not a good sign when we feel inherently limited, because even interested people have started to lose interest due to lack of overall community enthusiasm / participation.
Can we do something that can bring forth new life? The OM analysis are a slow start, the BH Open was interesting for a time, but I think it’s nigh we look at what we want from this metagame, and not just bans/suspects, but what we have come to expect from BH that we just are not getting. Do we not have enough options for Pokemon role compression? Are we struggling with the reality that we do not have the simple sheer volume we once had to pick from last generation, and now we feel entitled?
No matter the answer, for any metagame, it is not healthy if we see more and more time pass between posts with zero new activity in even the related threads like the BH Central Resources, and Created and Underrated threads.
I know my post doesn’t necessary propose a solution, but at least I am acknowledging there is a problem, and I think we need to address it. After all, what will get people playing again?
Everyone might have a different answer, but if we at least try to do more to answer some of their reasoning, we can stop this metagame from basically becoming a victim of the Dexit generation. If BH cannot be saved, that likely will dictate a pattern for smaller OMs, as the playerbase for OMs overall has dwindled too. Now, since BH is the largest OM, traditionally speaking, it’s surprising that even it is not an exception to the smaller pool of players.
Let’s have a community discussion on what we need to regain the glory BH once had. Afterall, I don’t see much activity, and while that may be due to simply waiting for a poll, what can we discuss in the meantime?
What if the poll above is not going to happen, do we not discuss anything else?
thanks for the post, i guess i'll share my thoughts here too regarding the current state of gen 8 bh.
first of all i will say that periods of inactivity on the forum don't necessarily indicate the meta being "dead"; last gen the forum activity slowed down a lot especially closer to the end. however, there are other ways of measuring activity.
there have been 253 messages in the bh metagame channel in the last week. this isn't super concerning to me on its own because earlier weeks had more "healthy" levels of 1000+, but i'm worried that this might not be an outlier.
in both december and january, gen 7 bh got almost twice the amount of ladder plays that gen 8 bh did.
to me there's definitely an issue here. here are some of the roots that it has imo:
one of the biggest problems in my eyes is council inactivity. the council isn't completely inactive, which is keeping the meta alive, but as it is they kinda just pop up every couple weeks or so to discuss bans. loser has been the only one actually posting outside of council-related things.
pretty much everyone sees problematic things in the meta rn (shoutouts to team vcreate) but we don't even know what the council thinks on the matter, because they haven't posted. why bother posting if the people who can actually do something aren't willing to engage?
this kind of leads into the next issue, flaws with the meta. we are playing with the pdons, the water bubbles, the psychic surges of gen 8 free. consistency is limited. there's too much sauce and it takes focus away from the nuances of building and playing that really separate the good players from the bad ones.
i don't think dexit necessarily has an impact on the quality of the metagame, but i haven't thought about that too much. paging pseudo intellectuals xavgbChazm please help
the final issue to me is the lack of longevity in the meta. tiering decisions feel almost pointless when the dlc is just gonna shake everything up in a few months. is something like darm or zeraora going to be problematic when we have all the legendaries back? is preserving such a short metagame worth it?
anyway i can't think that much right now (might edit this post) but i think we have a few ways to fix this, such as:
more quickbans, we don't even necessarily need a super active council for this, just get things done so we can have some competitive play in like ompl. to a certain extent it doesn't even matter what we remove, anything that reduces the sauce level is appreciated
more active council (PAY COUNCIL)
stop calling bolt beak and fishious rend "fsms"
make gen 7 the main meta again until after the dlc comes out (serious suggestion) (actual serious suggestion) (there are no fun sets in gen 8) (actually do this cause i know youre not gonna do the others)
hire shakeitup to post in ompl commencement thread
spam bringbacknationaldex on tpc tweets and have engaging discussion on discord where we think of how best to roast the guys who think theyre clever for replying "i dont remember asking"
secret suggestion (youll find out if you have a badge)
For a while, I thought that the low activity on the Gen 8 ladder was due to Gen 7 still being available on the ladder. I didn't really blame people, as Gen 7 was more developed than Gen 8 and all the kinks hadn't been worked out yet. I was glad, but sad, to see Gen 7 BH finally drop from the ladder as I hoped it would get the people who had stuck with it to become interested in Gen 8 BH. I think this was the case, at least at the start of this month, but the ladder is still looking pretty inactive most of the time.
I scrolled through the Gen 8 BH ladder rankings today, looking for names that stuck out to me as people who also played Gen 7 BH. While there are probably more I missed, I saw about 46 names I recognized from the last gen. 65% of these names do not have or are not active on Smogon, and 40% of those names are highly ranked on the ladder. So there is a decent portion of high ladder players in the current meta that are not voicing their opinions either here or on discord.
Take a look at the top 25 as of posting this:
While there are quite a few alts here, of the 16 individual players in this picture, 10 of them are not participating in metagame discussions. I think missing out on some of the better and more active players' opinions is not helping us grow as a metagame.
Another thing that strikes me so far in this generation is the gap between high and low ladder play. If you watch a sub 1100 rank BH game, you never know what you're going to find. If you're lucky, its an OU team that has actually tried to optimize itself for BH, but most of the time its a pretty random assortment of creative garbage. I'm not sure if dexit is to blame, but low ladder teambuilding seems to be at rock bottom. Last gen, at least low ladder players had a wider range of toys to pick from, like the Mega Mewtwos, Mega Rayquaza, and more mons in general. Basically, mons more capable of putting up a fight against a good team than say, Togedemaru or Trevenant.
This combined with a smaller active player base does make it hard to find games on the ladder, especially competitive ones. On a typical day, I see about four to eight ladder games going on at any moment, which isn't a lot. This means you either have about a five minute wait to find a low-to-mid ranked game or, if you're on while another decent player is on, you'll play about three games with them during your ladder session. From experience, I can admit this can get stale fairly quickly. Especially if you're stuck facing rain or sun spam teams (thanks Ivar57 lol).
This leads me into another topic, which is what I see as the most pressing issue for our metagame: V-create, Fishious Rend, and Bolt Beak. These three moves, especially when combined on a team or even one mon, are extremely straining on teambuilding. It is very hard to prep for all three of them in one team without opening yourself up to other threats, like special attackers. Each of these moves also get boosts from sun, rain, and Electric Terrain, respectively, and can make walling them even harder. Anyone who has laddered recently will have seen an assortment of teams using rain, sun, or Terrain to support their wallbreakers. While these are very matchup dependent, they can be very hard to play against if you have the wrong defensive core. Mainly because weather or Terrain boosted 170+ Base Power moves are just freaking hard to wall without a specifically devoted phsyical wall or an immunity ability.
SL42 speaks to this in this statement. I don't think that Darmanitan-GZ, Zeraora, and Barraskewda are broken on their own. They just happen to have high Attack and Speed stats along with access to 170+ Base Power STAB moves. Below, I show some calcs of these mons with their broken moves being used against potential checks to them and compare them with the next best STAB move for each mon. Surprisingly, Zeraora was the only one whose NHKO didn't change but only because Bolt Strike's impressive Base Power (but it does have the miss chance and less PP). In the calcs, I also included "Gen 8 BH Mew" which came from the average base HP and Defense of the current BH VR (97 HP and 103 Defense). This is to show the raw power difference between the broken moves and the next best options. All calcs are shown with the offensive mon using Intrepid Sword + Choice Band.
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Zen V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Seismitoad: 166-196 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Seismitoad: 111-131 (26.8 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Zeraora Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 313-370 (66 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Zeraora Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 240-283 (50.6 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 334-394 (70.4 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 196-232 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Zen V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def "Gen 8 BH Mew": 543-640 (136.4 - 160.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def "Gen 8 BH Mew": 363-427 (91.2 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Zeraora Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def "Gen 8 BH Mew": 396-466 (99.4 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Zeraora Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def "Gen 8 BH Mew": 303-357 (76.1 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def "Gen 8 BH Mew": 423-498 (106.2 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def "Gen 8 BH Mew": 249-294 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I think these calcs show that the power of these moves is just too much for the mons we have available to handle.
Hopefully I haven't rambled on too much and lost you, but in case I have I'll throw in a TL;DR for my summary.
TL;DR: Several current good players are absent from metagame discussions. Ladder play is limited due to smaller active player base and large skill gap between high and low ladder. This is compounded by broken moves making building hard and results in ladder play being really inconsistent.
I’m honestly a fan of the nuclear meta. I love clicking the nuke moves, it’s just very satisfying. We have fur coat, ice scales, water absorb, flash fire, primordial sea and desolate land, it’s not impossible to take on the spam teams (the rain team gets absolutely plowed by a special attacking desolate land user for example). I do feel that any tiering decision is kind of pointless when the meta will be shaken up dramatically twice more with DLC. Is there any real reason not to just follow a natdex format so we can get a look at what the “true” gen 8 long term BH meta will look like? I think aggressive action is needed, even if it breaks precedent for “possible on cart”.
Gen 8 activity across all metagames is down compared to gen 7, OU being the least affected obviously. If you take LC for example, their ladder is half as active as a year ago. Heck, in terms of only numbers, BH is doing even better than LC. There isn’t a need to make drastic decisions at this point. OMs has gotten to a good place on Smogon and I’d like to keep it that way. So, NatDex isn’t even an option that will be considered. If you’d like, use the NatDex forum - there’s a thread there.
I do agree with Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request), mostly. It is the responsibility of metagame leaders to make attempts to drive up activity. As for the suggestions, while gen 7 BH is the most popular OM, making it the “main” format isn’t really feasible. Imagine participating in OMGS and playing gen 8 versions of 4 metagames and then gen 7 BH. Yes the DLCs shaking things up is an issue but every format will be dealing with that issue. These are the cards we were dealt and we must do our best with it. The current gen 8 metagame pre-dlc does need to continue to be balanced, even if it’s going to drastically change, for the sake of competitive tournaments like the OM Circuit and OMPL, and I guess ladder in general.
Also, yes, we should extend the blunder and CTC ban to OM since 1v1 is now a subsection of us and it was a “major” tour.
I honestly don't see the metagame evolving much without council actions. High ladder players are either constantly experimenting with gimmicks or using the best stuff and facing little competition. Loser has already said that low ladder is wildly unpredictable and almost always has terrible sets. The sad part is, I think everyone vastly understates just how much of average BH games and the ladder consists of these low quality games. I'm certainly not trying to sound elitist here, but you're not going to find players trying to make legitimate teams till the 1300s at best, when almost every other metagame you'd be finding decent quality matches at that ladder rating. A ton of my time playing in Gen 8 BH has largely seen lower ladder players try to make meme teams, and outside of that, teams that rely off cheesier strats, like Perish Trapping, (bad) hard stall teams, or spamming Rusted Sword Zacian or other extremely strong breakers. I would not be surprised if the reason a lot of players resort to stuff like this is because some of the threats that are regularly mentioned as problematic here might be downright impossible for a huge chunk of BH players to actually check. I myself already have a hard enough time dealing with certain things like Intrepid Sword breakers, I can't imagine how difficult it is for a lot of ladder players.
I speak to this because quite a few members of this community know I lurk the lower half the ladder because I frequently make new alts just to try new teams. Speaking from experience, most of the time, if you're not going to play during peak time, you'll end up waiting a long time just to match up with someone who is very low ladder. This isn't something new, or exclusive to a specific ladder point. During the Suspect Test for shed, I was top 10 in ladder rankings and I was still matching up with players who were literal hundreds of ELO points below me on a regular basis. Part of the reason I even got to top 10 to begin with was because I had a huge win streak from constantly matching up with lower ladder players. I would not be surprised if some people managed to get reqs during that test entirely by playing on low ladder battles. And at that point I don't see the point of trying to hold Suspect Tests for most things that aren't already controversial topics here, because getting suspect reqs becomes a formality. Judging by what I've been seeing in this thread, the community here has largely come to an agreement on what is and isn't overpowered, which should prompt the Council to take action already.
With that being said, I don't currently see the Gen 8 meta being terribly engaging for high ladder players. Gen 7 had the problems I mentioned above to a smaller extent, but Gen 8 brings it to a whole another level. There is so much wildly busted shit that a lot of people can straight up peak the ladder by just having a few of the things people here mentioned. I got suspect reqs by completely trashing most teams I encounter with Choice Band Desolate Land GDZ. Being able to 2HKO pretty much anything that doesn't straight up counter it (Primordial Sea Steel-types) is clearly and blatantly overpowered in every aspect. And GDZ isn't the only mon capable of this feat. There are other Pokemon who, with the right sets, can be just as effective if not better for their use case.
I don't see anything productive from continuing to have these discussions. We've been talking about high BP moves and specific mons for months now. There haven't been any recent developments, and probably won't be. These discussions are just starting to turn into complaining that loops in circles constantly with people eventually calling out the Council for inactivity each time. I appreciate the attempts by the Council members to be more transparent as of recently but I must make one thing clear. Actions speak louder than words. I think everyone here would appreciate if we started taking more action to improve the meta rather than dabbling on about how [x] is overpowered ad nauseam.
-Dynamax: While it can be annoying to deal with, Dynamax is a staple of Gen 8 and it would feel wrong without it. Maybe set a cap though, ala mega evos.
-Darm-GZ: Eh, idk. They seem like a powerful sweeper force, but there are many powerful sweeper forces in the meta who are fine; If we nerf their kit, however, specifically V-Create, they can be introduced into gen pop with little to no problem.
-Intrepid Sword: Not only is this the signature ability of sword doggo (and they would feel wrong without it), but there's also similar abilities like Speed Boost and Dauntless Shield. While Attack boosting per turn is obviously better than some Abilities for sure, it might not be banworthy, but idk.
-V-Create: Kill it with fire.
-Fishious Rend: Kill it with water.
-Bolt Beak: Kill it with lightning.
-Octolock: I don't see too much of a problem with this one, but I haven't ran it or fought against it enough. However, it seems to function similarly to moves like Fire Spin, but it lowers Defense. I could see why it's broken, but I don't think it's quite banworthy. Maybe put a "No Intrepid Sword + Octolock" clause though, that seems a bit wack.
people are talking about ladder, ill give some thoughts too, storm eagle is right about the ELO gap. as someone who is almost constantly at least top 15, 80% of my games are against players with under 1300 ELO, even then it takes 10-15 minute to find a single game even at 1600, even then the average watchable games is declining daily with less people playing.
Gen 8 activity across all metagames is down compared to gen 7, OU being the least affected obviously. If you take LC for example, their ladder is half as active as a year ago. Heck, in terms of only numbers, BH is doing even better than LC. There isn’t a need to make drastic decisions at this point. OMs has gotten to a good place on Smogon and I’d like to keep it that way. So, NatDex isn’t even an option that will be considered. If you’d like, use the NatDex forum - there’s a thread there.
I do agree with Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request), mostly. It is the responsibility of metagame leaders to make attempts to drive up activity. As for the suggestions, while gen 7 BH is the most popular OM, making it the “main” format isn’t really feasible. Imagine participating in OMGS and playing gen 8 versions of 4 metagames and then gen 7 BH. Yes the DLCs shaking things up is an issue but every format will be dealing with that issue. These are the cards we were dealt and we must do our best with it. The current gen 8 metagame pre-dlc does need to continue to be balanced, even if it’s going to drastically change, for the sake of competitive tournaments like the OM Circuit and OMPL, and I guess ladder in general.
Also, yes, we should extend the blunder and CTC ban to OM since 1v1 is now a subsection of us and it was a “major” tour.
Instead of dismissing it out of hand or saying "these are the cards we are dealt" I think many people would appreciate an explanation why going to a natdex format is a no go. The problem is that these are not the cards we're dealt, we can do whatever we want (As an OM, not OU!). So much time suspecting and discussion on "broken"things will be wasted before a new DLC comes out instead of like, you know, learning and optimizing the "true" long term meta.
Instead of dismissing it out of hand or saying "these are the cards we are dealt" I think many people would appreciate an explanation why going to a natdex format is a no go. The problem is that these are not the cards we're dealt, we can do whatever we want (As an OM, not OU!). So much time suspecting and discussion on "broken"things will be wasted before a new DLC comes out instead of like, you know, learning and optimizing the "true" long term meta.
But how do we know it's the true long term meta? What's stopping them from making another DLC with Mega Evolutions, and what if they don't? We can do what we want for our main format, yes, but it's kind of difficult to bring about the DLC early when we don't know what's gonna be in it (we can't even add Urushifu and Calyrex bc we don't know the stats or moves). We do know some stuff they said about every legendary coming back, but this wouldn't be the first time GameFreak didn't specify the small text (but not mythicals!, etc) so realistically we're probably not gonna be accurate to the cartridge post DLC either way, since it's impossible to datamine something that hasn't been released yet.
I'm not saying I like the decision. I don't think the OM leaders or BH council do either. But there's not much we can do about it if we want to stay accurate to cartridge mechanics in the long run.
Probably a bad time to mention this in the wake of a discussion like that, but Terrakion seems to be a pretty good counter to DarmGZ
Terrakion @ Choice Scarf / Wide Lens
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Bolt Beak
Damage calcs (wish I knew how to do the inset thing)
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 828-976 (200 - 235.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 662-780 (159.9 - 188.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dynamax damage calcs
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dynamax Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 828-976 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The two caveats of this Terrakion is the choice lock, which can be nullified with dynamax, and the 90% accuracy of rock slide. Wide lens is included there because it negates this one weakness, but without scarf, it won't outspeed DarmGZ.
Damage calcs (on terrakion)
252 Atk Choice Band Abomasnow V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Terrakion in Harsh Sunshine: 327-384 (84.7 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dynamax damage calcs
252 Atk Abomasnow Max Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Terrakion in Harsh Sunshine: 182-214 (47.1 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
Mold breaker with fishious rend doesn't OKHO unless non-scarf. Edit: Alright fine, it's more of revenge killer rather than a counter. Been playing in games with lots of those lately, so was inclined to try to make one.
Probably a bad time to mention this in the wake of a discussion like that, but Terrakion seems to be a pretty good counter to DarmGZ
Terrakion @ Choice Scarf / Wide Lens
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Bolt Beak
Damage calcs (wish I knew how to do the inset thing)
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 828-976 (200 - 235.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 662-780 (159.9 - 188.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dynamax damage calcs
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dynamax Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 828-976 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The two caveats of this Terrakion is the choice lock, which can be nullified with dynamax, and the 90% accuracy of rock slide. Wide lens is included there because it negates this one weakness, but without scarf, it won't outspeed DarmGZ.
Damage calcs (on terrakion)
252 Atk Choice Band Abomasnow V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Terrakion in Harsh Sunshine: 327-384 (84.7 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dynamax damage calcs
252 Atk Abomasnow Max Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Terrakion in Harsh Sunshine: 182-214 (47.1 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
Mold breaker with fishious rend doesn't OKHO unless non-scarf.
Even if Darm isn't running one of those, Terrak still isn't a counter. I'm genuinely stumped as to how someone could look at the calc, notice that Terrak is taking 84.7% at minimum, and come to the conclusion that Terrak is a Darm counter. Terrak is a check at best.
Well as long as Terrakion doesn't die from the hit, and kills Darm, I see no issue with Terrakion countering DarmGZ. Sure, it'll take huge damage, which can't be ignored, but it'll still function with 6% health.
Even if Darm isn't running one of those, Terrak still isn't a counter. I'm genuinely stumped as to how someone could look at the calc, notice that Terrak is taking 84.7% at minimum, and come to the conclusion that Terrak is a Darm counter. Terrak is a check at best.
I still refuse to believe that this is a check. checks are something that can beat it or at least keep it at bay throughout the game. I'm going to come back to my original statement, the coverage I stated is very common so it isn't a check, stop saying that it is. I do have to admit this might have a niche somewhere, but right now I just don't see it. sorry
here are my thoughts on the meta and the future with dlcs (take all this with a grain of salt I’m not great and not very smart) (also as person who prefers more defensive teams I might be biased):
I don’t think the meta is in a very good spot right now. like 3 or 4 mons () completely dominate the meta, forcing you to run either really specific counters that don’t really do anything else, or run an even more offensive team. it shouldn’t be possible to run 4+ of one mon and win (see dgz spam) in a healthy meta imo.
My proposal is that we tier extremely aggressively with qbs to get the meta into a playable spot, until DLC comes out when we can unban things in accordance with the new power level. I think we have to do this if we want the meta before DLC to not be a complete wash. I think we should ban a bunch of mons in order to make the power level more balanced, as right now there are some Pokémon that are obviously way way better than others. I think if like Zac-c, gdz, and a couple others like maybe melm, zama-c, zek if we don’t get rid of beak, etc. were banned the meta would be much more playable (and interesting).
some stuff that I think should definitely go regardless of if we take the aggressive banning approach or not:
beak/rend/vc - these moves completely centralize the meta around these three attacking types. If a mon doesn’t resist any of these (non ff/ps melm), it becomes infinitely worse. idk if they will stay broken after dlc, but I think they will continue to make water electric and fire the best offensive types just by existing.
octolock - this move is uncompetitive and broken. allowing a mon to just add one move to a set and eliminate almost all of their counters is dumb. yeah pivoting moves exist but every time the wall is forced to use them while taking a hit, they are slowly chipped down until they can’t wall anything. and this is even before talking about normalize dragapult, which is stupid and broken only because of this move.
Dynamax - I’ve come around to the idea that this mechanic is unhealthy. One button that any mon can use at any time, that when clicked allows you to beat your checks without sacrificing an item or move, is broken. It makes for uncompetitive 50-50s many times a game. The argument that it’s a big part of gen 8’s identity is dumb. zacian is a big part of gen 8’s identity but thst doesn’t mean it’s not broken.
overall I’m just waiting for dlc so people actually are interested in the meta again so changes can actually happen, because I think we all know that changes need to be made.
Well as long as Terrakion doesn't die from the hit, and kills Darm, I see no issue with Terrakion countering DarmGZ. Sure, it'll take huge damage, which can't be ignored, but it'll still function with 6% health.
By definition, a counter is a Pokemon who can repeatedly switch into an opposing Pokemon without much if any fear. Tyranitar vs Blacephalon, Skarmory vs Gliscor, etc. Terrakion is far from a Darm counter. It can only switch into a single V-Create, so after you force out the Darm (no one in their right mind is keeping a slowed Darm in against a Terrakion) you're fucked if it ever comes back in. That's not even considering that for even this to work, you have to keep Terrakion away from pretty much any damage, including hazard damage. Just a single spike allows Darm to OHKO Terrakion 81.3% of the time.
You guys I didn’t want to initiate this conversation where we downgrade the thread from Pokemon battles to user battles.
Let’s clarify, his idea is a check, I.e. it’s a revenge killer that forces out Darmanitan if and after Darm has KOed something (or off of a slow pivot, say the Darm user switches in as you use Volt Switch, lettin you send in Terrakion).
Let’s not mix counters with checks. Checks are something like a Frail Focus Sash user being slow pivoted in, and luring the sweeper to attack, but surviving the attack thanks to Focus Sash, and then KOing it on the turn it survives.
Terrakion is a check, but it’s not durable to be a counter.
Anyways; let’s not nitpick and just focus on what will work.
I think we should have the bans immediately occur for this time period:
This week:
Ban the 3 moves
In a month: March 24
If the player base isn’t going up to healthy metagame levels (I.e. enough to not have to wait 7-9 minutes to get paired up for a new battle), then we ban Darm-Galar-Z, etc.
In 2 months: April 24
We consider unbanning NatDex. Because the survival of the metagame overrides the unprecedented cartridge only rules, we need to really ask ourselves, “Is our method of cartridge working?” If the answer is “No, people just don’t play or post like we need in order for the metagame to last until Gen 9”, then we do need to adjust accordingly.
May 24;
If the NatDex has worked, we can still get new stuff from both expansion packs, include the the DLC in June
I think part of the hesitation is people will say “but Nat Dex invalidates the newness of the DLC updates, we’ll actually it doesn’t. They still bring new abilities, items, Pokemon, and new moves (we know for sure that is true for the Galar slowpoke line, 2 form Legendaries with signature moves, etc.), and likely mechanic changes.
It’s not just about what has been done, it’s what will work. Let’s focus on the my 2 month plan, to see if the suspect bans are even enough, then talk about nat Dex if it hasn’t been enough.
Because I gaurantee you, if our usual plan is to argue and point fingers no one will agree and people who don’t agree will just not bother playing, which lowers the player base all over again.
-Dynamax: While it can be annoying to deal with, Dynamax is a staple of Gen 8 and it would feel wrong without it. Maybe set a cap though, ala mega evos.
-Darm-GZ: Eh, idk. They seem like a powerful sweeper force, but there are many powerful sweeper forces in the meta who are fine; If we nerf their kit, however, specifically V-Create, they can be introduced into gen pop with little to no problem.
-Intrepid Sword: Not only is this the signature ability of sword doggo (and they would feel wrong without it), but there's also similar abilities like Speed Boost and Dauntless Shield. While Attack boosting per turn is obviously better than some Abilities for sure, it might not be banworthy, but idk.
-V-Create: Kill it with fire.
-Fishious Rend: Kill it with water.
-Bolt Beak: Kill it with lightning.
-Octolock: I don't see too much of a problem with this one, but I haven't ran it or fought against it enough. However, it seems to function similarly to moves like Fire Spin, but it lowers Defense. I could see why it's broken, but I don't think it's quite banworthy. Maybe put a "No Intrepid Sword + Octolock" clause though, that seems a bit wack.
No one cares if Dynamax is a staple of gen 8, this is the same trash argument that was used in OU and no one cares, if something is broken it needs to go.
Again no one cares if ISword is a signature ability or not.
Excellent reasoning for the three moves.
Comparing Octolock to Fire Spin is like comparing V-create to Fire Punch. The entire point of Octolock is lowering defenses because you don't see people saying Mean Look is broken. Complex banning is a huge LOL.
I think everyone commented on the Terrak meme but seriously there is no point in expanding that discussion further. Who cares if its a check or a counter (which btw there are no counters in BH).
My views haven't changed at all regarding the suspects since my last post so I'll just repost them.
So I'm surprised more people aren't discussing this but this is such a broken move yikes. The ability to trap a mon and practically delete it if it is unable to escape, kill you first, or somehow remove the stat drops is incredibly uncompetitive as it requires minimal skill to use and very difficult to play against when you don't know the set. The best abuser currently I have found is Onyx Onix 7's Normalize Dragapult with Octolock, Multi-Attack, Taunt, and Entrainment which allows it to trap the opponent, prevent any form of retaliation, and preventing the use of moves such as Recovery, Teleport/Baton Pass, and Haze. Replays for the success of this set can be found by simply searching Onyx Onix 7 for replays. Due to the possibility of Max Strike after Dynamaxing, even Dark and Normal types are not safe and the only true counter to this set is Magic Bounce Tyranitar which is not a great set in the metagame. Note that not even Magic Bouncers are safe because most Bouncers take a huge chunk from Multi-Attack at -1 and they cannot stall it otherwise the damage snowballs (Ghost resists have to be really healthy as well because of Max Strike). I personally have faced against the NormPult set and still struggled against it even with full knowledge of the complete set, showing its potency. Octolock can also be used on other mons such as PH Zamazenta, Zacian, and more. New Edit here: Notably Octolock + Taunt is impossible to play against, see MAMP vs stresh in BH Open with the Zacian-C with Octo Sap Taunt Behemoth which would've sweeped if not for a 30% burn.
Dynamax is a more controversial topic but it is still very disgusting when playing. The first application of Dynamaxing is to escape Choice locks to surprise a switch-in. This leads to a very large amount of unhealthy 50-50s where the defensive side has to constantly guess if the choiced breaker would dynamax or not and either switch to a different resist or dynamax themselves. 50/50s are already bad for competitiveness but in this case the offensive user has very little risk in choosing what to do while the defensive user could potentially lose his dynamax or take heavy damage on one of his checks. The second application of Dynamaxing is to survive hits you would otherwise not, and this is used primarily on offensive mons to prevent revenge killing. Mons such as Mewtwo and Lunala could easily Dynamax and avoid a KO from GDZ/Zeraora while KOing them. This again leads to a large number of 50/50s that can be unfavourable for both sides (and a large reason why most frail breakers NEED to run a pivoting move to avoid such situations. Such users can also Dynamax to avoid a defensive mon retaliating with a KO from moves like Spectral Thief. The third application of Dynamaxing is to negate certain conditions such as Entrainment and Destiny Bond. This (again) leads to 50/50s when facing sets like NormPult but in the latter case of ignoring stuff like DBond makes Dynamaxing incredibly difficult to outplay as not only do you have to correctly predict the dynamax but you also have to stall out the turns, something very difficult to do when they have strong 130 BP moves. The final application of Dynamaxing is to gain the special effects of the Max Moves, including BP. These moves with the stat changes or field effects allow some mons to win 1v1s they normally wouldn't or potentially setup without the use of passive setup moves by using stuff like Max Knuckle, Max Airstream, and Max Ooze. This is also used on defensive mons after trapping with Anchor Shot and following up with Max Steelspike to gain def boosts to successfully outstall the opponent. This application is notably less effective, more niche, and tame compared to the other. Notice how all applications of Dynamax leads to a large number of risky 50/50s (usually on one side) that make the game very uncompetitive and luck-based. Dynamax also favours offense as defensive mons can't really take advantage of Dynamaxing with the loss of Recovery during Dynamax.
170 BP moves are very strong, this everyone can agree. But compared to the above crap this is really much more healthy. While these moves allow users to brute force through checks one needs to realize that Water and Electric aren't exactly the greatest offensive typings. Both typings have ability immunities and Electric has a natural immunity as well. Obviously these moves aren't very threatening if you can move first with Prankster etc and there aren't a lot of great abusers (Zeraora + Barraskewda + setup Zekrom). I'm kinda on the fence for this one. Match up FISH and Lemme OHKO everything Zera are dumb but I think these moves are definitely less important to get rid off compared to other stuff. Also use Defensive Eternatus it can check these moves (Band IS Zera 2HKOs without FC though watch out).
So this move is usually at least as strong as STAB on a lot of mons which makes it good coverage option for physical mons and also is insanely strong by OHKOing most weak to it etc. etc. The stat drops are much easier to abuse though and lower pp and acc compared to 170 BPs as well as more common immunity abilities used for this makes it less dangerous and IMO not broken at all. GDZ isn't even that fast.
Lastly you can't have a proper BH post without criticizing the council.
We have the tier leader E4 Flint who still has yet to play a single ladder game OF GENERATION 8 (NOT EVEN BH) and hasn't posted in discord for 3 WEEKS. It is clear to any reasonable person that he is incapable of leading this meta or even make any decisions regarding it, considering how he wouldn't even be familiar with the new mons in gen 8. Similar to what I said in my last post, even if DLC drops or something Flint would still be not capable of leading the meta because his activity towards the end of Gen 7 is also very questionable. When will OM leadership do anything about this?
Funbot is definitely active on Smogon, however as people have pointed out she is spread across too many metas to actually have the time to be active in each one of them (perhaps excluding National Dex). I'm not going to say that she is incapable but I believe that it is to everyone's benefit that Funbot no longer leads this meta.
Will has been moved to Resources so not going to comment, should probably get the other stuff out soon though.
Loser is doing a good job of addressing and engaging with the community and being active by constantly playing in tours and ladder. However he is 1/3 of the BH Council so he cannot do anything when he needs other people to agree to stuff and vote and etc.
There are much better and capable people for making decisions regarding the BH community, especially when the metagame requires a fast response including quickbans and quick suspect tests. Some people I can think of that include MAMP and Volkner. Both have played this meta extensively and are very active in the meta (posts, plays the ladder, plays tours, part of BH QC team). Although at this point anyone that has actually played this meta and has understanding and can work well in a council like position could work.
TLDR stop arguing and nitpicking on pointless stuff, Octolock and Dynamax are dumb and uncompetitive so QB both, high BP moves are controversial so consider suspecting them separately (V-create feels balanced), BH Council is inactive af so replace the inactive members. Do all these ASAP if you actually care about this meta and don't want it to die OM Leadership.
I realized I meant to announce this last week but didn't get the time to, which may have caused some confusion.
I would like to congratulate MAMP as our newest full council member; along with Funbot and a loser, this council will primarily be responsible for metagame decision making. As I mentioned previously before the Shed suspect, I will be moving off to more of a maintaining thread and resources posts, and advisory role with my presence as om leader.
While my love for bh still exists, i can feel my motivation has slipped away, be it because most of my friends who i grew up playing with are gone, to some recent interactions ive had, to also irl events that are consuming the bulk of my time. that's not to say that i "havent played a single ladder game" - i agree that i have not been able to maintain my activity, which is why i had already decided introducing gen 8 would be my last activity as bhtl a while ago while gen 7 was still around, but i have played around 60 games on ladder on various alts and have played many challenges games. i dont really save replays unless there's something interesting going on in them, but here's a few - (replay | replay | unrated). i have been looking after bh for i think around 7 years, which i think even among the normal tiers is a long time and have gone through many tournaments, 10 suspects and 8 polls in gen 7 alone, and thousands of games. i enjoyed being the bh leader and tried to lead responsibly and responsively at least until the end of gen 7. thanks to all of you and all of my friends, you know who you are. glhf
the bhc should be providing their roadmap on what to do going forward and will try to work with the comm as much as possible, which i think is better than reverting back to the suspect polls which was a big criticism as i recall of my leadership and was a main factor in wanting the creation of a council in the first place.
also note that this post is for information only - if youd like to reply to any part of it you can pm me so as to not (further) derail the current conversation going on
) completely dominate the meta, forcing you to run either really specific counters that don’t really do anything else, or run an even more offensive team. it shouldn’t be possible to run 4+ of one mon and win (see dgz spam) in a healthy meta imo.
octolock - this move is uncompetitive and broken. allowing a mon to just add one move to a set and eliminate almost all of their counters is dumb. yeah pivoting moves exist but every time the wall is forced to use them while taking a hit, they are slowly chipped down until they can’t wall anything. and this is even before talking about normalize dragapult, which is stupid and broken only because of this move. 
