BH Balanced Hackmons

Back to Gen 8 BH, which is the thread we are in right now, in case you all forgot.
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The council has decided to quick ban Octolock. It is widely seen as uncompetitive for its ability to trap and remove would-be checks thanks to dropping the trapped foes' defenses each turn. This move alone has made some very average sets, like Normalize Dragapult and Poison Heal Zacian, into threatening wall/stall breakers.

We are still discussing further actions that should be taken to make this meta more healthy, like Dynamax and V-create/Bolt Beak/Fishious Rend. We'd love to see some more discussion on what you guys think is the biggest issue for the BH meta (other than the council lol).
 
I advocate for species clause as a first obvious and crucial step to fighting the uncompetitiveness of games. There are relatively fewer viable mons especially on the defensive side, and the offensive mons we have at possess roughly equivalent strength to what was available last gen. Additionally that Imposter is a lot less viable which means you can't scout sets as easily. Hazard removal is also a good deal easier because of court change, and the fact that the defensive mons aren't as bulky, meaning offensive removers get more chances to freely remove hazards. That means you can't chip sash users with hazard damage as easily and you can't distinguish between different mons with hazard damage as easily. Because of this, it's actually more profitable to species spam than it was last gen and it's harder to prepare for. Things like Darm-GZ + Reshiram sun spam teams or just plain old dgz spam without weather support are extremely deadly, even to opposing rain teams or teams with several darm-gz checks, since those can easily be lured one time and then beaten.

Of course, even if we add a species clause, there are plenty of extremely powerful elements of the game, but species spam is pretty much impossible to prepare for and turns the game into an extremely matchup-based affair. I want to see this implemented sooner rather than later unlike last gen when we only started discussing it seriously when the generation was a few months away from ending. But this shouldn't really need much discussion. It's simply uncompetitive straight from team preview.
 
I feel like the thing that holding this meta back right now and making it kind of not fun to play is the lack of viable pokemon. Dexit really slashed the pool of usable mons by removing megas and most box legends. Most notably, the lack of viable normal and dark types really hurts. There's not a lot of easy solutions to this, and in the long run it might just be better to live with it since most pokemon will probably come back over time with DLC. However, there is one radical solution to at least think about.

Hypothetically, if we shift the average BST of the metagame down by banning every pokemon above 600 BST, then we'd have a meta where nearly every fully evolved pokemon in gen 8 is viable.

Obviously, this is a nuclear solution that I wouldn't expect most people to be on board with. It's basically hitting the reset button on the metagame and starting from scratch, and would bring it's own problems. There are some pokemon like DGZ that would definitely be overpowered, some pokemon like Melmetal that are balanced now but might be pushed over the edge in a lower BST space, and maybe some pokemon/moves/abilities that become problems we'd have never seen coming from where we are now.

Coming from the point of view of someone who has always most enjoyed the teambuilding and mechanical aspects of BH, more viable pokemon with more varied typings to use is only a positive. The fact that some of the high BST mons are gone doesn't change much, you can just find new mons to love that work at the lower scale. However, I definitely don't expect most people to think the same way. I can see how banning all of the high BST pokemon would create an identity crisis and turn a lot of people off. Even if the mechanics are the same, not being able to use the most powerful pokemon in the game definitely has a different feel for a hackmons meta, even if it would probably be more balanced.

I don't expect the council (or most players) to really take this proposal seriously, but I did want to at least put it out there and see what others think about it.
 
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal in Heavy Rain: 408-480 (86 - 101.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Melmetal with Primordial Sea is KOed at least 50% of the time by a predicted switch-in Fishous Rend after minor chip. (Intrepid + Choice Band)

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal in Heavy Rain: 408-480 (86 - 101.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Sure, you wouldn’t send in Melmetal against Fishous Rend knowingly, but you are literally going to have to send something in to take whatever move it uses, and most people assume anything but a Fishous Rend.

Moreover, let’s say you know it has Fishous Rend, now you cannot send in Melmetal at all. And the worst part is Darmanitan-Galar-Zen doesn’t need to set the weather, Melmetal does it for him.

So Fishous breaks its biggest check, while Ghosts like Aegislash / Doublade that could come in on Close Combat, V-Create, and Icicle Crash are hit very hard as well. If they pack Primordial Sea over Flash Fire, then they are screwed as well.

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Abomasnow Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 175-206 (54.3 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Abomasnow Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade in Heavy Rain: 262-309 (81.3 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If we thought that PDon last generation was unstoppable due to V-Create and Thousand Arrows, just look at Fishous Rend UnSTABbed, and hitting the strongest physical walls in the game, amplified by a pretty common Defensive ability that actually benefits the Attacker...
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I think the biggest concern is Fishous Rend and Bolt Beak as they enable checks to be non-checks, and they establish a sort of presence where you can no longer feel safe unless you are using Prankster Strength Sap, etc. since oftentimes they can use Mold Breaker, or Intrepid Sword to bypass your (Fur Coat) defenses without having to set up (Choice Band), and if you mispredict... you lose a Pokemon.
Back to Gen 8 BH, which is the thread we are in right now, in case you all forgot.
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The council has decided to quick ban Octolock. It is widely seen as uncompetitive for its ability to trap and remove would-be checks thanks to dropping the trapped foes' defenses each turn. This move alone has made some very average sets, like Normalize Dragapult and Poison Heal Zacian, into threatening wall/stall breakers.

We are still discussing further actions that should be taken to make this meta more healthy, like Dynamax and V-create/Bolt Beak/Fishious Rend. We'd love to see some more discussion on what you guys think is the biggest issue for the BH meta (other than the council lol).
Lets ask ourselves “Why do we need those 2 moves?” The alternatives seem adequate.

Bolt Strike is still fairly powerful, and Crabhammer, while average, is comparable to Earthquake which is nothing to scoff at.

Rather than repeat arguments on why they should be banned, I think my question is a simple way to bring the bottom line home. So unless we need those moves, I don’t find it healthy for them to stay.
 
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Lets ask ourselves “Why do we need those 2 moves?” The alternatives seem adequate.

Bolt Strike is still fairly powerful, and Crabhammer, while average, is comparable to Earthquake which is nothing to scoff at.

Rather than repeat arguments on why they should be banned, I think my question is a simple way to bring the bottom line home. So unless we need those moves, I don’t find it healthy for them to stay.
I’m not entirely sure about what you are trying to explain here, tho I agree how Fishious Rend destroys V-Create checks. Actually it happens the other way round too, it’s just that Mold Breaker DarmGZ with V-Create is so dominant and forces Primordial Sea on almost every team so Fishious Rend users take full advantage of it. With rain teams flooding the ladder currently thanks to some particular people, Desolate Land is starting to become more popular and now DarmGZ can take advantage of the free 1.5x boost. I think this point suggests that V-Create and Fishious Rend are making each other even more powerful, but neither of them are broken on their own, including Bolt Beak. Although all of them has Terrain/Weather to boost their power level even higher, they all have immunity abilities and immunity type for Bolt Beak too. V-Create has stat drops and Beak/Rend are useless when outsped. Dimrah’s post above already explains clearly about that.

With Beak being the easiest to handle with Ground/Dragon/Ferrothorn, that leaves a debate between V-Create and Fishious Rend, and the answer is pretty obvious. VC is abused by DarmGZ which has one of the highest attack and speed stat in the meta, while Fishious Rend is mostly abused by Barraskewda, whose attack stat is nothing compared to the bouncy snowman. V-Create’s next alternative, Pyro Ball, is perfectly fine on DarmGZ. From what I explained here, I think V-Create should go. With VC gone it means less Primordial Seas so Fishious Rend would also be less broken without the auto 1.5x boost. DarmGZ could still be a dominant threat, but it’s power level would be essentially reduced by 1/3.

Considering the upcoming dlc (in june? idk) could bring back something like Giratina which just walls all three of these moves, a potential unban on VC (or Beak/Rend if council decides to ban) would also be foreseeable.

e: oops totally forgot about suspect, i’d prefer suspect on vc over qb
 
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berry

rock
is a Community Contributor
I'll drop a post in this thread to voice my support for some of the previous posts. I'm not really experienced with gen 8 at all, but following the ideas in the following posts definitely makes pre-dlc gen 8 bh more appealing.

I advocate for species clause as a first obvious and crucial step to fighting the uncompetitiveness of games. There are relatively fewer viable mons especially on the defensive side, and the offensive mons we have at possess roughly equivalent strength to what was available last gen. Additionally that Imposter is a lot less viable which means you can't scout sets as easily. Hazard removal is also a good deal easier because of court change, and the fact that the defensive mons aren't as bulky, meaning offensive removers get more chances to freely remove hazards. That means you can't chip sash users with hazard damage as easily and you can't distinguish between different mons with hazard damage as easily. Because of this, it's actually more profitable to species spam than it was last gen and it's harder to prepare for. Things like Darm-GZ + Reshiram sun spam teams or just plain old dgz spam without weather support are extremely deadly, even to opposing rain teams or teams with several darm-gz checks, since those can easily be lured one time and then beaten.

Of course, even if we add a species clause, there are plenty of extremely powerful elements of the game, but species spam is pretty much impossible to prepare for and turns the game into an extremely matchup-based affair. I want to see this implemented sooner rather than later unlike last gen when we only started discussing it seriously when the generation was a few months away from ending. But this shouldn't really need much discussion. It's simply uncompetitive straight from team preview.
yes. yes yes.
Species Clause is only ever a good idea. One of the biggest turnoffs in all of pokemon is facing uncompetitive strategies like spam, and I think this is the number one reason I haven't picked up this generation's BH yet. Watching games with 6-10 darmanitan spamming whatever the strongest fire or ice move is is the farthest thing from entertaining. Keeping species spam in the format limits actual strategy and replaces it with mindless low-skill no surprises games. BH should be one of the farthest formats from "just click attacking moves to win and don't really think", and no species clause is the number one thing holding BH back from being a higher skill format.

I feel like the thing that holding this meta back right now and making it kind of not fun to play is the lack of viable pokemon. Dexit really slashed the pool of usable mons by removing megas and most box legends. Most notably, the lack of viable normal and dark types really hurts. There's not a lot of easy solutions to this, and in the long run it might just be better to live with it since most pokemon will probably come back over time with DLC. However, there is one radical solution to at least think about.

Hypothetically, if we shift the average BST of the metagame down by banning every pokemon above 600 BST, then we'd have a meta where nearly every fully evolved pokemon in gen 8 is viable.

Obviously, this is a nuclear solution that I wouldn't expect most people to be on board with. It's basically hitting the reset button on the metagame and starting from scratch, and would bring it's own problems. There are some pokemon like DGZ that would definitely be overpowered, some pokemon like Melmetal that are balanced now but might be pushed over the edge in a lower BST space, and maybe some pokemon/moves/abilities that become problems we'd have never seen coming from where we are now.

Coming from the point of view of someone who has always most enjoyed the teambuilding and mechanical aspects of BH, more viable pokemon with more varied typings to use is only a positive. The fact that some of the high BST mons are gone doesn't change much, you can just find new mons to love that work at the lower scale. However, I definitely don't expect most people to think the same way. I can see how banning all of the high BST pokemon would create an identity crisis and turn a lot of people off. Even if the mechanics are the same, not being able to use the most powerful pokemon in the game definitely has a different feel for a hackmons meta, even if it would probably be more balanced.

I don't expect the council (or most players) to really take this proposal seriously, but I did want to at least put it out there and see what others think about it.
I haha reacted this post originally and kinda blew it off, but after reading it again I think larger waves of bans to make the power ceiling lower are a good idea. There is a noticeable gap between high power legendaries and "other mons" that leaves next to no room for innovation outside of trying to out-threat the already potent threats. This power gap is only made larger by the smaller available dex in pre-dlc, which leads to an extremely over centralized format.
Obviously going through with this would cause a pretty big identity crisis in BH just like Clank mentioned, but pre-dlc is such a different format than any of the previous gens of BH, so I think changes like this should be considered just because of the giant sidestep that BH took from gen 7 to 8.
This process wouldn't be quick: I don't think the best way to do it would just be instituting a rule banning every mon over 600 bst immediately, but it's definitely an idea that needs to be considered.

My own ideas on the fossil moves
These moves really limit BH playstyles and while they exist the meta will just get pushed to a faster and more aggressive state. I believe this hurts the integrity of BH and limits player creativity. BH should have room for both fast and slow teams, but I think these moves push BH into a purely fast speed format.

I'll add some more ideas to this post if I get to it, but these are just kinda some ramblings for now.
 

Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

NO MONEY? NO JOB? TOO MUCH BAD NEWS??
is a Community Contributor
Lets ask ourselves “Why do we need those 2 moves?” The alternatives seem adequate.

Bolt Strike is still fairly powerful, and Crabhammer, while average, is comparable to Earthquake which is nothing to scoff at.

Rather than repeat arguments on why they should be banned, I think my question is a simple way to bring the bottom line home. So unless we need those moves, I don’t find it healthy for them to stay.
i agree that bolt beak/fishious/vcreate are pretty crazy and should probably be banned, but this is a pretty bad reason to ban things.

the meta doesn't necessarily "need" anything in order to be good. we can have a good meta even if physical electrics or whatever are completely unviable cause they have no good moves. as an example, mega banette in gen 6 had no physical ghost stab besides shadowclaw, so it was a bad mon and the meta progressed without it.

we shouldn't keep around broken moves and abilities just because there's no balanced alternative.
 
i agree that bolt beak/fishious/vcreate are pretty crazy and should probably be banned, but this is a pretty bad reason to ban things.

the meta doesn't necessarily "need" anything in order to be good. we can have a good meta even if physical electrics or whatever are completely unviable cause they have no good moves. as an example, mega banette in gen 6 had no physical ghost stab besides shadowclaw, so it was a bad mon and the meta progressed without it.

we shouldn't keep around broken moves and abilities just because there's no balanced alternative.
That’s like, not my point at all.

I brought up the Calcs first and foremost to say that is why they are bannable. Power.

I showcased how even the bulkiest of Defensive mons, like Doublade are 2HKOed at worst.

Then I highlighted that I didn’t want to spend the post simply repeating points already discussed. I.e. Redundant.

Lastly, I threw in the question of “why do we need them?” To pose as contrast to “why do we need to ban them?”

Since the answer is, we don’t really “need” them, it then goes back to how the moves are bannable due to power.

So this is how I feel a question can be used to ask people thinking “but we shouldn’t ban them”. I wanted them to consider if we have a valid reason to ban them, power, I posed the question “why do we need them?”

Thus, for anyone who was hesitant about what would happen without them, we have the Bolt Strike and Crab Hammer options. As some people don’t want to lose something without an alternative. I’m not that person, but someone may vote in a suspect bc of that.

Some people fear what happens after the possible ban, I don’t, I just thought acknowledging the next best thing would help those people. But that isn’t my justification, power is. That’s why I said “I don’t find it healthy for them to stay.”

Afterall, I never thought people banned Octolock because we have other trap moves. I thought it was banned because it is simply too powerful to have at all.

Edit: Mega Metaboss also uses the alternative point to make his case: Pyro Ball would replace V-Create... why only bring it up when I do it?
]
I’m not entirely sure about what you are trying to explain here, tho I agree how Fishious Rend destroys V-Create checks. Actually it happens the other way round too, it’s just that Mold Breaker DarmGZ with V-Create is so dominant and forces Primordial Sea on almost every team so Fishious Rend users take full advantage of it. With rain teams flooding the ladder currently thanks to some particular people, Desolate Land is starting to become more popular and now DarmGZ can take advantage of the free 1.5x boost. I think this point suggests that V-Create and Fishious Rend are making each other even more powerful, but neither of them are broken on their own, including Bolt Beak. Although all of them has Terrain/Weather to boost their power level even higher, they all have immunity abilities and immunity type for Bolt Beak too. V-Create has stat drops and Beak/Rend are useless when outsped. Dimrah’s post above already explains clearly about that.

With Beak being the easiest to handle with Ground/Dragon/Ferrothorn, that leaves a debate between V-Create and Fishious Rend, and the answer is pretty obvious. VC is abused by DarmGZ which has one of the highest attack and speed stat in the meta, while Fishious Rend is mostly abused by Barraskewda, whose attack stat is nothing compared to the bouncy snowman. V-Create’s next alternative, Pyro Ball, is perfectly fine on DarmGZ. From what I explained here, I think V-Create should go. With VC gone it means less Primordial Seas so Fishious Rend would also be less broken without the auto 1.5x boost. DarmGZ could still be a dominant threat, but it’s power level would be essentially reduced by 1/3.

Considering the upcoming dlc (in june? idk) could bring back something like Giratina which just walls all three of these moves, a potential unban on VC (or Beak/Rend if council decides to ban) would also be foreseeable.

e: oops totally forgot about suspect, i’d prefer suspect on vc over qb
Giratina is still threatened by Icicle Crash from Darmanitan-Galar-Z, and Close Combat is always an option for Darmanitan-Galar-Z for a Ferrothorn: but Icicle Crash is still a 2HKO on Ferrothorn regardless.

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Abomasnow Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 217-256 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I would say they can be broken in their own. Some people do not use all 3, or even 2 on the same set. Zacian-C can be seen with its STAB, V-Create, and often Earthquake or Close Combat to handle Steels with Flash Fire or Primordial Sea. If it opts for a set up move, it then only has space for 3 attacks, and it may prefer Bolt Beak to pair with its STAB to handle Flying/Water-type switch ins like Fur Coat Toxapex, Golisipod, and Flash Fire Corviknight. STAB SunSteel for Unaware, Fur Coat, is still viable.

I get your points, thanks.
 
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I've seen multiple people bring up Species Clause and I fully agree with what was said.

3.-Species clause-It has been discussed in past i know but i wana propose my dumb idea.I dont know its its feasible but could it be possible to force douplicate of mons to have diferent names,for instance if u wana use double/triple eternatus u have to name them differently.I have been many times in the position where,despite having scouted the sets of an enemy mon,due to it being mutliple i dont know which set am i encountering,an issue which counters actually scouting,a very important aspect of the game
I advocate for species clause as a first obvious and crucial step to fighting the uncompetitiveness of games. There are relatively fewer viable mons especially on the defensive side, and the offensive mons we have at possess roughly equivalent strength to what was available last gen. Additionally that Imposter is a lot less viable which means you can't scout sets as easily. Hazard removal is also a good deal easier because of court change, and the fact that the defensive mons aren't as bulky, meaning offensive removers get more chances to freely remove hazards. That means you can't chip sash users with hazard damage as easily and you can't distinguish between different mons with hazard damage as easily. Because of this, it's actually more profitable to species spam than it was last gen and it's harder to prepare for. Things like Darm-GZ + Reshiram sun spam teams or just plain old dgz spam without weather support are extremely deadly, even to opposing rain teams or teams with several darm-gz checks, since those can easily be lured one time and then beaten.

Of course, even if we add a species clause, there are plenty of extremely powerful elements of the game, but species spam is pretty much impossible to prepare for and turns the game into an extremely matchup-based affair. I want to see this implemented sooner rather than later unlike last gen when we only started discussing it seriously when the generation was a few months away from ending. But this shouldn't really need much discussion. It's simply uncompetitive straight from team preview.
Species Clause is only ever a good idea. One of the biggest turnoffs in all of pokemon is facing uncompetitive strategies like spam, and I think this is the number one reason I haven't picked up this generation's BH yet. Watching games with 6-10 darmanitan spamming whatever the strongest fire or ice move is is the farthest thing from entertaining. Keeping species spam in the format limits actual strategy and replaces it with mindless low-skill no surprises games. BH should be one of the farthest formats from "just click attacking moves to win and don't really think", and no species clause is the number one thing holding BH back from being a higher skill format.

I completely, wholeheartedly agree with everything that was said. To be perfectly honest, I'm baffled at the fact that this is something that has gone on so long. Researching the topic, it appeared to have gained minor traction in gen 6 due to Imposter. But Ability Clause became a thing (max of 2 identical abilities per team) in gen 6, so it didn't catch on. I've always been in support of Species Clause. I've always considered multiple of the same Pokemon on a team uncompetitive because of what dimrah mentioned. The client simply fails to keep track of certain Pokemon, and as far as I am aware this is an intentional design decision. If that's the case then I think Species Clause would make the metagame healthier.

The lack of species clause has never been something that has really impacted the metagame in any gen until now, aside from the aforementioned gen 6 thing. It was an afterthought most of the time because it was largely unused. Most of the time you'd see it used in bad teams on low ladder or for very specific high ladder niches. At worst it would be a minor annoyance, as evidenced by some people complaining about Deoxys spam teams in gen 7. As for Gen 8, I believe Species Clause is now a necessity. The lack of Species Clause disproportionately affects offensive pokemon more than defensive ones. With all of the hugely effective breakers there are, it is very possible for a team which has multiple of a specific Pokemon to completely overrun a team with little skill or planning. This is part of the point behind stresh's post. Everything is so strong that there's little emphasis on good teambuilding. And I believe spamming the same breaker makes it even harder to teams to deal with things. Most teams are usually equipped with one wall to deal with specific Pokemon. If you can overwhelm that wall, the game can spiral out of control very, very quickly. To put it simply, species spam makes Gen 8 BH's problems worse. There's very little benefit to the metagame of keeping it around since it's already uncommon as it is.

As for other things. I am glad Octolock got quick banned, especially before it started gaining traction. Up until before it was quick banned, it wasn't really used all that much because people were still experimenting with things. Had the council not took action, I fear people would've started building teams around abusing Octolock.

I'm honestly unsure about V-create yet, but I do support a ban for fish beak. They are clearly and obviously overpowered. At worst those moves are excellent neutral coverage, there's basically no scenario where running or using them would be bad in any manner bar immunities. V-create is much easier to wall, and has more viable immunities. Now, I'm not saying there isn't a problem with V-create in particular, it's just I'm unsure if the move is the problem or the Pokemon running the move. GDZ is a top-tier Pokemon. So is Rusted Sword Zacian. But they're kinda... the only V-create users? I know my opinion regarding V-create is going to be very unpopular, but I can't make up my mind regarding that. I do support a ban for Fishious Rend and Bolt Beak, in case I didn't make myself clear.
 
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I am somewhat of a lurker, started playing bh for the first time a bunch of months ago (probably closer to 1 year duh) with the help of my friend Aethernum. I eventually stopped playing it, I wasn't a really good player but got in the top numerous times. BH gen8 looks horrible to me and I would never ever play it in its current state. I am one of those people who just can't really find the motivation to play this offensive shitfest (being the stall lord that I am). Which is why I highly anticipated an octolock ban, and I welcome it with happiness.

I don't have enough meta knowledge, only reading this threat and suspect ones, to have a stance on any serious ban, but I too would love to voice for a species clause (if possible even a retroactive one). It's just so fucking dumb, and I hate seeing the replays, even in high ladder, of ctlr+c/f teams. It's just not fun and I find it intrinsically uncompetitive given the fact that you can't really tell the difference between the mons either, unless they have a nickname or took damage. Introduce species clause, please.
 
Talking a little about the meta and future suspect...

Just why? I know Octolock is pretty strong but it wasn't the most broken thing in BH currently.
Yes, you can counter your check with this move, but Pivot move like U-turn with passive recovery like Regenerator or Poison Heal could easly tank an Octolock and one move. Yes, it's trap, but you had also Anchor Shot to trap something (You didn't have the def drop but trapping is effective).
I don't see Octolock like a "splashable" move but more than a good lure set. You don't use a Shift Gear Zamazenta like an Octolock Zamazenta (and also I prefere SG version).The main goal of this set isn't the same, one is Set-up and sweeping and the other is eliminate his check and being a good wallbreaker.

his move alone has made some very average sets, like Normalize Dragapult and Poison Heal Zacian, into threatening wall/stall breakers.
I completely disagree with that. Normalize Dragapult is so a niche pokemon, you can destroy this set with so much way (Magic Bounce / Multi-attack / Dynamaxing / Shed Shell / Taunt), is so hard to set-up this (you need Octolock + Entrainment + Taunt, 3 turns when you can pivot with Parting shot or U-turn, you can burn it or deal damage). When you must set-up for 3 turns to kill one pokemon, it is a shitty set (like Anchor Shot + Imprison + Transform, or Perish Song + Anchor Shot). For Zacian I don't see a Octolock PH set (for me it seems good but not broken).

The most dangerous thing about Octolock is the Octolock + Spore combo, and you haven't talk about it in the explanation. I used a Mewtwo PH with that and it was pretty efficiently. But you have some counterplay with this technique like Poison Heal check or just Safety Googles! Also some pokemon check normal and Octolock+Spore versions like :
-Golisopode check the most of Zamazenta
-Mandibuzz wall Mewtwo
Also you need to Spore + Octolock your check to deal with it, if you predict wrong or you can't Spore/Octolock, you can't break your check and the check will just kill you with pivoting move / PPstall your Octolock.

So, I think Octolock is really good but doesn't deserve a quickban, at the most a suspect test, because you had counterplay with this kind of strategy (pivot, Shed Shell, natural check, passive recovery if you are afraid of this kind of trapping set).

Also I was pretty angry against the decision to QB Octolock. The meta suffers hugely from diversity of set and pokemon. You have a lot of Physical threats (Darm-ZG, Intrepid Sword Band Set, Poison Heal set-up), you need different counters for them but for Special threats (Lunala/ SF Eternatus / SF Mewtwo / PH Quiver Dance) are walled by the same pokémons, Umbreon, Snorlax, Type:Null. Octolock profit more for Special threats than Physical threats because it was one of few ways to deal with these counter if they didn't prepare to that.

So quickbanning Octolock is a wrong choice to balance the metagame for me. We need to nerf physical threats ! Octolock wasn't a priority, you have Darm-ZG who need 2 counters to wall it efficiently, Intrepid Sword is always here but Gorilla Tactics not (is kinda the same thing, just Intrepid Sword had some counterplay like Haze/Spectral Thief, and you see the ability immediatly), V-create is just a strong STAB/coverage for a lot of physical threat so you must play Primordial Sea, and Bolt Beak/Fishious Rend have some counteplay but you have some way to abuse it (Rain/Electric terrain). These cases (suspect or quickban) seems to be more urgent than Octolock was for me.

Some thoughts for suspect:
-We need to nerf physicals threats, so focus on Intrepid Sword, Darm-ZG, V-create.
-Bolt Beak/Fishious Rend must have a suspect on it, after the cases above.
-Species Clause is like Sleep Clause, it's more of a nice addition than a necessary addition, but i'm for it. Just add it without suspect, or when all of the cases above are cleared.
-Dynamax isn't broken. It is just 3 turns, for the entire match with no switch allowed if you want to keep it.
With Band/Specs, you can switch moves (for coverage) but you lose power, you have more bulk but you can't recover your health (it is nice for avoid a revenge kill), and the secondary effect are manageable in BH. Dynamax is a usefull trick in BH and require skill to use it efficiently, but doesn't deserve even a suspect for me.

I hate spitting on staff but we need to solve some troubles. We have only 3 members in the council! It is not good to have a council of 3 people! You cannot group differents opinions on a vital question on this tier like quickbanning something, seriously, they are 5 in the AAA council with a Tier Leader! Take some motivated people to fill these empty seats! I don't think you had this kind of opinion on Octolock in your council because you are only three (I'm saying that because I heard nobody talking about Octolock + Spore here, and with the explanation, I really doubt you have talk about Spore+Octolock case).Resources take a long time to being developped (the VR for exemple, some people have a lot of remarks for that and no changes, or samples (but I agree, we don't have a lot of viable samples here, the community must give some teams)

On that, I hope you understand my point of view on Octolock and the need to nerf physical threats a little (even if you don't necessarily agree on it).
I will put some replays with Octolock+Spore if i found my login for some alts.
 
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Just why? I know Octolock is pretty strong but it wasn't the most broken thing in BH currently.
While it wasn't the most broken thing, it was the most uncompetitive thing.

The two sets I mentioned were just relevant examples of Octolock abusers, but you are right that there were various methods of using the move (like PH Mewtwo you mentioned). Zacian-C was a very solid abuser of this move, especially when combined with Taunt to deny recovery and Teleport. Mentions of Shed Shell aren't really relevant, especially in a meta where Knock Off is extremely common. I've seen this item used some, and used it some myself, but it is really niche and other items are much better and useful in almost every instance. Octolock + Spore is certainly an annoying combination (Spore makes anything annoying) but I don't think it was the worst/most dangerous thing about Octolock.

Here are some replays showcasing where Octolock helped offensive mons bypass would-be checks.
In this one, MAMP's Octolock + Taunt Zacian-C removes what looks like Prankster Hippodown and was on the way to removing PH Reshiram before being burned. These are two mons that should be able to check Zacian-C fairly well, but Octolock (combined with Taunt) made it able to bypass them.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1064092498
Starting turn 64, will's PH Zekrom traps the opposing Prankster Melmetal and eventually wears down something that normally would be able to check it. Prankster mons are already wishing for more moveslots, so not all of them have pivot options. This means Octolock leaves them spamming Haze and recovery and that can only last so long.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1053122931
Another instance of Taunt-olock with Zacian-C, who is able to remove a normally solid check in Fur Coat Seismitoad.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1069261303
This is an older one, but Arkeis uses Octolock to get three kills he really shouldn't have gotten otherwise.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1020654015
The council did not make this decision thinking it would completely "balance the metagame" but rather to help it by removing something that is uncompetitive. Sure, Octolock wasn't without counterplay, but it did not add anything positive to the meta and it needed to go. As I mentioned before, banning Octolock wasn't the only action the council was planning on taking. The next step is to find out some of the bigger issues for the meta, as others have posted about and as you mention in the latter part of your post. Octolock was just a step in the right direction for a healthier meta.

Lack of diversity and Species Clause seem to be most discussed so far. I agree that running into teams with 2+ high powered threats like Darm-GZ and Zekrom are pretty lame to see and even lamer to play against. Even defensive cores like 2+ Eternatus or Melmetal can be tough to play against and hard to scout due to how PS! works. If people agree that a Species Clause would be beneficial, now is the time to voice your agreement. Otherwise, it's also the time to voice your concerns about the metagame.
 
I support species clause
Species clause is definitely needed. I've seen several people with full teams of the same Pokemon, and it really sucks the fun out of the game.
I will agree. It makes it much harder to predict, especially with some of the more threatening offensive mons like 2 Darm-G-Z with Mold Breaker on one, and Desolate Land on the other. Just when you send in a check for one, they U-Turn pivot to the other, in a way, they cover eachothers weakness, Mold Breaker > Flash Fire, Desolate Land > Primordial Sea.

Now it’s no longer about strategy, and all about matchup, because you likely didn’t bring both abilities, and now you will possibly pay the price.

I mean, I don’t have that concern bc I bring Darm-Z, it’s older cousin, but many Melmetal do Bc their ability is their only Defense Vs V-Create. Toxapex works too.

Species Clause means we can make a team without having to guess what we are facing (moveset wise, especially), and with Pokemon that don’t announce abilities on switch-in, like Sheer Force, we sometimes have to wonder if someone’s second Eternatus is packing Fur Coat or Sheer Force.

Also, a loser I give you credit as an active councilman and as our sort of MVP since E4 Flint - has stepped back, I won’t call it stepping down, just back.

You are carrying a lot of weight on your shoulders, but you wear it well.

Thank you for keeping this thread aware of the council’s decisions, reasonings, and rulings. I may have revived the thread, but you keep it going.

You are, yet again, “a winner” in my book.

P.S. Seeing all the Darm-Z in those replays brought a metaphoric tear to my eye! It may have evaporated from all of the heat from those Lava Plumes, but I could sense that something so amazing occurred. I felt my idea going from niche pick, to top select, for covering the most offensive threats we have today.

Thank you. And I am really glad to see this thread back on track! Everyone is discussing the core concerns, and I don’t see much back and forth. :)
 
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Mean look, boom, forever free setup.
please don't post things like this, it isn't effective Plus its a one-liner. first off, mean look is not even close to viable as many other options like anchor shot or infestation, even then this has nearly no use as so many things counter this anyway, look at things like pranksters, Magic bouncers, and hell, just about anything that can run pivots like baton pass, parting shot or teleport. second of all, what does this even threaten? almost everything that normally can check pult checks this anyway, even if you get entrainment off, things like Mandibuzz and Tyranitar still wall you. I haven't taken into account Dynamax yet, which can completely bypass it and kill you back, so why even run this in the first place when the base set is already awful?
 
please don't post things like this, it isn't effective Plus its a one-liner. first off, mean look is not even close to viable as many other options like anchor shot or infestation, even then this has nearly no use as so many things counter this anyway, look at things like pranksters, Magic bouncers, and hell, just about anything that can run pivots like baton pass, parting shot or teleport. second of all, what does this even threaten? almost everything that normally can check pult checks this anyway, even if you get entrainment off, things like Mandibuzz and Tyranitar still wall you. I haven't taken into account Dynamax yet, which can completely bypass it and kill you back, so why even run this in the first place when the base set is already awful?
Part 1: To be fair, this is the only post the user has ever made. A swift click on their username reveals that.

Good points on Dragapult though.
————
Nuetral: On an new note, I have been feeling the excitement surrounding a new set I have been testing. For now, I see it as an alternative to the more standard moveset Rhydon has been using (Water Absorb). *Water Absorb’s moveset according to the Rhydon analysis is only different in the 4th moveslot, which would have been W-o-W / Teleport.

Rhydon @ Eviolite
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Spectral Thief / Teleport
- V-Create

This moveset, as opposed to Water Absorb, allows it to perform as a dual-function Wall and Wall Breaker, where Desolate Land Rhydon simultaneously blocks Fishous Rend Mold Breakers like Barrascuda and can KO their walls such as Non-Flash Fire Corviknight. Nevertheless, Rhydon poses a legitimate threat to some of the most powerful Steel-type offense in the metagame, surviving their attack and KOing them in return.
VS Offense-

252 Atk Rhydon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zacian-Crowned in Harsh Sunshine: 422-498 (108.7 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Rhydon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Harsh Sunshine: 394-464 (98.9 - 116.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Rhydon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Excadrill in Harsh Sunshine: 634-746 (149.5 - 175.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

VS Walls-

252 Atk Rhydon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight in Harsh Sunshine: 412-486 (103 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Rhydon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield in Harsh Sunshine: 336-396 (103.7 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Rhydon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta-Crowned in Harsh Sunshine: 358-422 (92.2 - 108.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. [Non-Fur Coat]

252 Atk Rhydon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Harsh Sunshine: 700-828 (198.8 - 235.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO *Primordial Sea is removed
As a backup, it’s own STAB Earthquake is still a 2HKO against Flash Fire Pokemon that don’t threaten it like Aegislash, and it can maintain its Water Absorb role to come in on Pokemon whose STAB Rhydon resists, like Zeraora, Toxapex, Zekrom, and Tyranitar, although beware of Knock Off. In a pinch, Earthquake coverage also serves as a 2HKO on prominent Special Attackers such as Eternatus, and Reshiram, as well as the niche Chandelure, all of which resist V-Create.

Overall, Rhydon is able to hit much of the VR ranked Pokemon from S to D for 1-2HKOs, without set-up, while still keeping its anti-Water functionality, in addition to not sacrificing its ability to come in on the same physical threats it would expect to check on it’s more standard set. (It’s literally only 1 move different).

Lastly, a Choice Banded V-Create off of Darmanitan-Galar-Zen under the Sun is still a 3HKO, so unlike Primordial Sea Melmetal who risks a 1HKO from Banded Fishous Rend, Rhydon can still check Darmanitan-Galar-Zen, who now loses -1 Defense and must switch out to avoid Earthquake. It’s original role largely intact.

The best Part is also how it can remove Rain, so Primordial Sea Melmetal is forced to either switch or stomach a 2HKO from V-Create, especially since most walls minimize Speed, allowing Rhydon to go first.
_______
Part 2: On another note-
#LegUpOnTheCompetition

#PlayTeste...RealLifeTested

#NotMe
 
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Part 1: To be fair, this is the only post the user has ever made. A swift click on their username reveals that.

Good points on Dragapult though.
————
Nuetral: On an new note, I have been feeling the excitement surrounding a new set I have been testing. For now, I see it as an alternative to the more standard moveset Rhydon has been using (Water Absorb). *Water Absorb’s moveset according to the Rhydon analysis is only different in the 4th moveslot, which would have been W-o-W / Teleport.

Rhydon @ Eviolite
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Spectral Thief / Teleport
- V-Create

This moveset, as opposed to Water Absorb, allows it to perform as a dual-function Wall and Wall Breaker, where Desolate Land Rhydon simultaneously blocks Fishous Rend Mold Breakers like Barrascuda and can KO their walls such as Non-Flash Fire Corviknight. Nevertheless, Rhydon poses a legitimate threat to some of the most powerful Steel-type offense in the metagame, surviving their attack and KOing them in return.
VS Offense-

252 Atk Rhydon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zacian-Crowned in Harsh Sunshine: 422-498 (108.7 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Rhydon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Harsh Sunshine: 394-464 (98.9 - 116.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Rhydon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Excadrill in Harsh Sunshine: 634-746 (149.5 - 175.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

VS Walls-

252 Atk Rhydon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight in Harsh Sunshine: 412-486 (103 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Rhydon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield in Harsh Sunshine: 336-396 (103.7 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Rhydon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta-Crowned in Harsh Sunshine: 358-422 (92.2 - 108.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. [Non-Fur Coat]

252 Atk Rhydon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Harsh Sunshine: 700-828 (198.8 - 235.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO *Primordial Sea is removed
As a backup, it’s own STAB Earthquake is still a 2HKO against Flash Fire Pokemon that don’t threaten it like Aegislash, and it can maintain its Water Absorb role to come in on Pokemon whose STAB Rhydon resists, like Zeraora, Toxapex, Zekrom, and Tyranitar, although beware of Knock Off. In a pinch, Earthquake coverage also serves as a 2HKO on prominent Special Attackers such as Eternatus, and Reshiram, as well as the niche Chandelure, all of which resist V-Create.

Overall, Rhydon is able to hit much of the VR ranked Pokemon from S to D for 1-2HKOs, without set-up, while still keeping its anti-Water functionality, in addition to not sacrificing its ability to come in on the same physical threats it would expect to check on it’s more standard set. (It’s literally only 1 move different).

Lastly, a Choice Banded V-Create off of Darmanitan-Galar-Zen under the Sun is still a 3HKO, so unlike Primordial Sea Melmetal who risks a 1HKO from Banded Fishous Rend, Rhydon can still check Darmanitan-Galar-Zen, who now loses -1 Defense and must switch out to avoid Earthquake. It’s original role largely intact.

The best Part is also how it can remove Rain, so Primordial Sea Melmetal is forced to either switch or stomach a 2HKO from V-Create, especially since most walls minimize Speed, allowing Rhydon to go first.
_______
Part 2: On another note-
#LegUpOnTheCompetition

#PlayTeste...RealLifeTested

#NotMe
remind me what utility this has over its fur coat variant? yeah, it can counter barra and some DGZ sets but that's about it, causing it to lose its positive matchup with the latter due to its Ice STAB, (even then they run grass moves now so it's still not too great). second of all, who in the right mind would stay in with a steel type on rhydon anyway? its almost always obvious that it runs a ground move like earthquake, so why risk the unneeded damage, the only real uses of this I can see is a rain CT. But even then it gets destroyed by most other things anyway, why run something like this when so many things can be better?
 
After a long delay, due to interruptions and changes in the metagame from bans and a suspect test, we've finally released the sample teams!
You can find them on the front page of this thread or in the link above.

We'd like to thank everyone who participated by submitting teams a while back. There were lots of good teams to chose from, but ultimately some of them became outdated due to metagame changes like the Shedinja and Octolock bans. The teams we decided on have remained solid throughout all the metagame changes and should give new users some great balance teams to pick from as well as the exciting rain offense team to play with.

The meta is still changing constantly, and more changes can be expected soon, so we encourage everyone to keep building and adjusting to the meta so that we'll have some great new options for sample teams when submissions re-open in the future.
 
remind me what utility this has over its fur coat variant? yeah, it can counter barra and some DGZ sets but that's about it, causing it to lose its positive matchup with the latter due to its Ice STAB, (even then they run grass moves now so it's still not too great). second of all, who in the right mind would stay in with a steel type on rhydon anyway? its almost always obvious that it runs a ground move like earthquake, so why risk the unneeded damage, the only real uses of this I can see is a rain CT. But even then it gets destroyed by most other things anyway, why run something like this when so many things can be better?
It’s not a replacement for Fur Coat.

If you noticed my comparison to Rhydon using Water Absorb, as I listed the same moveset with only a single variation in the fourth move, which is an analysis in progress for QC. Here.

Overall, by not bothering with W-o-W / Teleport, it can use a similar ability for similar results with a new option to 1HKO a foe that would normally survive an EQ, Outspeed and 2HKO Rhydon first.

Sunsteel Strike and Mold Breaker don’t care about your Fur Coat, So Icicle Crash CBand Darmanitan-Galar-Z, Excadrill, and others can still 2HKO your Fur Coat Rhydon.

Mold Breaker might reveal itself on switch-in, but Pokemon carrying SunSteel (including non-steels) are going to also bypass it, so it won’t always be obvious.

My point was more on accomplishing the same goal, with additional benefits, so you can beat its threats, while it takes 2 hits to KO you.

Also, since some Pokemon use Desolate Land/Primordial Sea without a corresponding offensive move of the same type, it’s not a big reveal that it’s packing V-Create since they know Mold Breaker Fishous Rend is what you are really countering.
 
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Kyurem-White @ Leftovers
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Dynamax Cannon
- Blue Flare
- Quiver Dance
overpowered lol
Hey, you remind me of when I used to make similar posts.

I think we need to consider some of the posting expectations.

I think as a new player you are trying to make sets that could theoretically work on paper but in practice they may encounter some roadblocks.

How about going over some damage calculations, and including any explanations on why you selected the moves, items, nature, etc. so other people understand your sets purpose (I.e. Boomburst for power, Quiver Dance for survival and offense, and then we can explain how something might not work.

For example, since Boomburst is already strong, gains STAB, and also hits even Neutral Dragons hard, like opposing Kyurem-W/B, you could opt for a different move to replace Dynamax Cannon, like Earth Power to hurt Primordial Sea/Flash Fire Steel-types.

You also gain coverage for things like Toxapex, and Darmanitan-Zen Mode. Because of this, Blue Flare is less necessary, and now you can use a different option for recovery, such as Strength Sap, since you boosted SpD via Quiver Dance, and now you can lower the foe’s Physical Attack offense when you are confronted with an offensive resist like Zamazenta-C. You could even use Spore.

Now, with a Recovery move, you can opt for a different item like Throat Spray since Boomburst is an offensive Sound move, so it activates to get +1 SpA, or if you are using Spore you can use Safety Goggles to avoid Imposter/Magic Bounces.

Kyurem-White @ Throat Spray / Safety Goggles
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Earth Power
- Strength Sap / Spore
- Quiver Dance

Now a set that can handle more Ice resists, recover, and keep its main functions (Quiver Dance and Boomburst) can do a great job responding to some of the things Dynamax Cannon didn’t have the same ability to do.

Spore also works as a 1-stop shop to nullify anything not immune so it doesn’t have to face that Pokemon at it’s full potential.

When you are able to explain a set, people can see the methodology behind it and better get behind you, and your posts.

Thanks for posting, just try and include more reasoning and show a few sentences so other new people understand how it works.
 
Kyurem-White @ Leftovers
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Dynamax Cannon
- Blue Flare
- Quiver Dance
overpowered lol
First off, welcome to Smogon and to BH! However, this thread is not the place for one-liners, which derail the discussion and are thus not allowed. If you continue to post like this, your posts will likely be deleted. Instead, this thread is for detailed thoughts and discussion on the metagame. For more casual discussion about the metagame, you can post in the OM chat on Showdown or in the OM Discord.

Additionally, in bringing up a new set, you should detail what exactly makes it effective in the current metagame, ideally supported by calcs and replays. This post is a good example of a detailed analysis-based post bringing up a new and unique set, since it explains what the function of the set is, shows calcs demonstrating what it does, and includes replays showing its effectiveness in practice.

Finally, I wanted to explain why this set is not used in the current metagame. Kyurem-W is best used as a powerful Specs wallbreaker or a Poison Heal setup sweeper. This set strikes an awkward medium between the immediate power of Specs and the long-lasting presence of the Poison Heal set. Additionally, the move choice leaves you walled by Flash Fire/Primordial Sea Steels, which are quite common in today’s meta.
 

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