BH Balanced Hackmons

I think loser explained it pretty well. The thing with Copycat sets in general is that you don't see them in tours at all, and you don't see them past the 1300s on ladder. I think a lot of the problem that these kinds of sets you'll see on the lower end of the ladder face is, well, beyond the odd surprise (pretty much anyone loses a single mon to Imprison Transform users when they begin laddering, despite them being complete ass for the most part), they simply fail to do just about anything beyond be a temporary annoyance. And it's not just Copycat either. You have a various assortment of garbage in the same vein. I've seen dumb crap like Prankster Electrify Ground-types. Stuff that focuses so much on a very specific niche that it often comes at a detriment to the set and team itself. None of it works after a certain point. High ladder involves using exceptionally strong breakers, or bulky legendaries who can either set up or provide consistent pressure. A lot of these teams who will try to rely on gimmicks like these will end up crumbling over 30 turns against well-built teams specifically because they can't provide that same pressure. Offensive pressure wins games. Even if offense isn't an issue, you have to worry about being hard walled by Fur Coat mons. Even Pokemon like Melmetal or Eternatus can still be an issue. An offensive set needs to be threatening, not just hard to kill to find good success.

Just keep in mind, if it looks too gimmicky to be used, it probably is. Test your sets and see if they see consistent success before posting them here. You might find wins with the Copycat setup specifically in part due to players on the lower end of the ladder not knowing how to handle it and be prepared, but you will also come to realize it doesn't work once you climb high enough. The higher you go, the more prepared opponents will be, and they will give you less opportunities to use gimmicks while also trying to punish you for using them. At best it's going to be an uphill battle. I'm not trying to say most gimmicks will fail, but Copycat is something that people have already experimented with as loser said.

You will find quite a few of us here frequently try to experiment and make new teams. Me personally, I like to try out sets that can work in theory but are relatively unused. Regenerator Pokemon are particularly unused in favor of Ice Scales Pokemon, but by no means are a lot of them bad in any measure. Bulky offense is great, and I sometimes try Choice Band on Regenerator users. A set I liked using in Gen 7 was RegenBand Necrozma-DM. I'm not saying this is what you should use, but rather I'm offering some examples.

Make yourself welcome with the community here, I think you'll find a few fun sets posted every now and then. I hope you enjoy your time with BH!
 
I would like to write more about Shell Smash and why I think it deserves some sort of control placed on it. Generational shifts have made Shell Smash much better than it was in Gen 7 in a myriad of ways, and I'll probably forget some of them in this post, so feel free to add on to or correct me if I miss something.

* Lower Defensive power of mons: The lower bulk of Pokemon this gen means that it is easier to break them by brute force with Shell Smash. This means that Shell Smash users don't have to be worried about being able to run only two moves, and can use their fourth moveslot to shut those defensive mons down such as with Spore or Taunt. It also means that they are easier to support with teammates, who don't need to lure or weaken the defensive mons, but can instead be used to support the team with Rapid Spin, Wish, or Status support.
* Weaker Priority users: Dark-Types are freer to set up this gen because of the lack of good Pixilate users. No one's running Mach Punch, and maybe they should start, but Mach Punch has little use other than to check Shell Smash Dark-types, accentuating the argument that preparing for Shell Smash spam significantly weakens the matchup against other teams. This doesn't even count for other Shell Smash spammers, only Dark-types (Darm-GZ doesn't die if it's at full health from a Zama-C Mach Punch).
* Better Hazard control: Court Change has been a godsend for these teams, which keeps their Focus Sashes intact. They don't need to worry about setting up their own hazards because the Shell Smash spam can break through everything without them. There is also Magic Guard Rapid Spin Darm-GZ if they decide to use that, which can afford to run Spectral Thief, V-Create, and Icicle crash in the other slots, letting it double as a check to opposing Smashers.
* VFB: Shell Smash can be combined with VFB for crazily strong coverage moves, since Shell Smash increases Speed so much that nothing unboosted or scarfed can outspeed its users. You may argue that VFB is a greater problem than Shell Smash, but I disagree. V-Create, Fisheous Rend and Bolt Beak each have a pool of viable users (if we take Shell Smash out of the equation), and other Pokemon who try to use these moves are seen mainly as gimmicks or off-meta. Shell Smash can be ran on just about anything with halfway reasonable offensive stats, meaning that you can't predict which Pokemon are using it from Team Preview like you can for VFB.
* Obstagoon: Yes, I'm including Obstagoon in its own section here. It's a Dark/Normal type with actually reasonable stats (I'm looking at you, Alolan Ratikate). Immunity to Spectral Thief and all targeted Prankster moves means the only way to stop its setup is with Prankster Haze, or having a mon that can kill it with a multi-hit move out while it sets up (This can fail if it's running White Herb, which many do). With Simple, it's able to run Extreme Speed/ multi Attack + Power Trip as its only coverage, Ohkoing things as bulky as Zacian-Crowned after setup. Taunt is probably its best fourth move, shutting down Prankster users after they haze and letting it set up again. Obstagoon becomes so powerful that it can even defeat Dynamax resists with Power Trip.

* Extreme Unpredictability: Building on from all the other points here, Shell Smash makes the metagame extremely unstable. There's no way to intuit that something's running Shell Smash, and there's no way to know what moves it could be running once it's set up without incurring serious losses that will probably lose you the game. Even if you try to prepare for Shell Smash with specialized sets, I guarantee you there's a Shell Smash team that can beat you, just because so many Pokemon can effectively run it. Power Trip users like Obstagoon, bulky versatile mons like Eternatus and Reshiram, Frail fast mons like Darm-GZ, even walls like Melmetal disguised as walls can all use Shell Smash to break through teams, bypassing any of the standard clauses like Form or Ability clause that could normally hold them up. This doesn't even get into the really gimmicky stuff like Baton Pass chains and Speed Boost mons.

My Solution: Banning Shell Smash may be the easiest thing to do, but it may be too drastic. I would instead prefer a Shell Smash clause limiting it to one user per team. There is already precedent for this in Gen 6's -Ate clause, which, no matter whether or not we agree with it, was implemented. I understand the extreme hesitation that people have with complex bans, but I think this one is a specific case that should be evaluated on its own.
In my opinion, Shell Smash is closer to an ability, like Intrepid Sword, than existing moves that we have banned such as Chatter or OHKO moves, which were banned because they turned the game into RNG. Shell Smash arguably removes nearly as much of the element of skill from the actual gameplay as RNG-based moves do.
 
I would like to write more about Shell Smash and why I think it deserves some sort of control placed on it. Generational shifts have made Shell Smash much better than it was in Gen 7 in a myriad of ways, and I'll probably forget some of them in this post, so feel free to add on to or correct me if I miss something.

* Lower Defensive power of mons: The lower bulk of Pokemon this gen means that it is easier to break them by brute force with Shell Smash. This means that Shell Smash users don't have to be worried about being able to run only two moves, and can use their fourth moveslot to shut those defensive mons down such as with Spore or Taunt. It also means that they are easier to support with teammates, who don't need to lure or weaken the defensive mons, but can instead be used to support the team with Rapid Spin, Wish, or Status support.
* Weaker Priority users: Dark-Types are freer to set up this gen because of the lack of good Pixilate users. No one's running Mach Punch, and maybe they should start, but Mach Punch has little use other than to check Shell Smash Dark-types, accentuating the argument that preparing for Shell Smash spam significantly weakens the matchup against other teams. This doesn't even count for other Shell Smash spammers, only Dark-types (Darm-GZ doesn't die if it's at full health from a Zama-C Mach Punch).
* Better Hazard control: Court Change has been a godsend for these teams, which keeps their Focus Sashes intact. They don't need to worry about setting up their own hazards because the Shell Smash spam can break through everything without them. There is also Magic Guard Rapid Spin Darm-GZ if they decide to use that, which can afford to run Spectral Thief, V-Create, and Icicle crash in the other slots, letting it double as a check to opposing Smashers.
* VFB: Shell Smash can be combined with VFB for crazily strong coverage moves, since Shell Smash increases Speed so much that nothing unboosted or scarfed can outspeed its users. You may argue that VFB is a greater problem than Shell Smash, but I disagree. V-Create, Fisheous Rend and Bolt Beak each have a pool of viable users (if we take Shell Smash out of the equation), and other Pokemon who try to use these moves are seen mainly as gimmicks or off-meta. Shell Smash can be ran on just about anything with halfway reasonable offensive stats, meaning that you can't predict which Pokemon are using it from Team Preview like you can for VFB.
* Obstagoon: Yes, I'm including Obstagoon in its own section here. It's a Dark/Normal type with actually reasonable stats (I'm looking at you, Alolan Ratikate). Immunity to Spectral Thief and all targeted Prankster moves means the only way to stop its setup is with Prankster Haze, or having a mon that can kill it with a multi-hit move out while it sets up (This can fail if it's running White Herb, which many do). With Simple, it's able to run Extreme Speed/ multi Attack + Power Trip as its only coverage, Ohkoing things as bulky as Zacian-Crowned after setup. Taunt is probably its best fourth move, shutting down Prankster users after they haze and letting it set up again. Obstagoon becomes so powerful that it can even defeat Dynamax resists with Power Trip.

* Extreme Unpredictability: Building on from all the other points here, Shell Smash makes the metagame extremely unstable. There's no way to intuit that something's running Shell Smash, and there's no way to know what moves it could be running once it's set up without incurring serious losses that will probably lose you the game. Even if you try to prepare for Shell Smash with specialized sets, I guarantee you there's a Shell Smash team that can beat you, just because so many Pokemon can effectively run it. Power Trip users like Obstagoon, bulky versatile mons like Eternatus and Reshiram, Frail fast mons like Darm-GZ, even walls like Melmetal disguised as walls can all use Shell Smash to break through teams, bypassing any of the standard clauses like Form or Ability clause that could normally hold them up. This doesn't even get into the really gimmicky stuff like Baton Pass chains and Speed Boost mons.

My Solution: Banning Shell Smash may be the easiest thing to do, but it may be too drastic. I would instead prefer a Shell Smash clause limiting it to one user per team. There is already precedent for this in Gen 6's -Ate clause, which, no matter whether or not we agree with it, was implemented. I understand the extreme hesitation that people have with complex bans, but I think this one is a specific case that should be evaluated on its own.
In my opinion, Shell Smash is closer to an ability, like Intrepid Sword, than existing moves that we have banned such as Chatter or OHKO moves, which were banned because they turned the game into RNG. Shell Smash arguably removes nearly as much of the element of skill from the actual gameplay as RNG-based moves do.
Shell Smash clause might be the best solution here. I agree that Shell Smash itself is not broken at all, but Shell Smash spam teams easily spirals the game out of control with its extreme unpredictability and the absurd power. I'd also like to add that first: The defensive power of mons isn't really weakened with new additions like Melmetal and Eternatus, but the choice is limited so offensive teams can target these walls and easily break through teams, like using Turboblaze Excadrill to target Fur Coat Eternatus, or a mixed Smash set with Earth Power/Blue Flare etc. to target Melmetal.

Second, Priority users are still as strong. Kyurem-Black and Zekrom (and maybe Zacian) are all strong -Ate FakeSpeed users. They're just not used much due to the introduction of Melmetal, which as incredible physical bulk and resists two of the three options mentioned above. Although Zacian only has 130 Atk which is pretty mediocre compared to Kyurem and Zekrom, it is already enough to deal with Smash users at -1 Defense and 144 BP STAB (FakeSpeed *1.2). However, this can easily countered by Dazzling, which is a pretty straightforward ability to pair with Shell Smash. It also doesn't perform really well in the general meta as mentioned above, with resists everywhere.

Last but not least, Obstagoon's immunity to Spectral Thief realistically only shines on its turn of set-up, as pretty much nothing can live a hit from a +4 STAB 260BP move (Simple+Shell Smash) then steal its boosts anyway. Good players would also not try to set up their sweepers in the face of a wall in fear of Spectral Thief, but now this worry is also gone, meaning that only Prankster Hazers and Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned can stop it from destroying a team. Yes, Zama-C is the only viable Fur Coat wall that can resist both Obstagoon's STABs and potentially OHKO back, but it's still close:
+4 252+ Atk Obstagoon Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 165-194 (42.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
This easily leads to an over-centralizing meta and forces every team to run Prankster/FC Zama-C to not lose your whole team to a single raccoon. Although these checks are commonly found on a (defensive) team, most teams only have one of them, making it really easy to send a second breaker and overwhelm the opponent. This further supports a limit to one Shell Smash user per team. Feel free to add on your views and concerns about this matter, and thanks for reading!
 
Random detriment, but I've always found imposter to be such a horrifically annoying ability to fight against. The very nature of the ability is basically a 1-card-fits all counter to any pokemon, because it literally just copies their sets. Apart from that, it's also very useful for doing things like scouting out the enemy's calcs, or deflecting hazards, or just revealing entire movesets. Against setup sweepers, Imposter reduces the entire matchup into a fifty-fifty where you're just praying that you attack first and don't lose the speed-tie. I think any ability that forces all setup mon situations into a diceroll isn't good for the metagame.

It's also extremely useful in nearly all situations. Throwing out an imposter on the first turn is the safest opening play in the entire metagame because of it's consistency and usefulness. You get to scout an entire mon and potentially see right into all of the opponents' strategies, allowing you to do things like setup with the opponents' own mons, or alternatively prevent setup. It drives me crazy whenever I see an imposter mon because it means that I can't setup in any way whatsoever, but then I also can't use any pokemon that's weakened and has priority, and I also can't hope to run a defensive pokemon with toxic.

And then with the ability to do this multiple times? Imposter has to be one of the strongest abilities in the entire metagame, and considering how many 50/50s it creates, one of the most braindead as well.
 
Random detriment, but I've always found imposter to be such a horrifically annoying ability to fight against. The very nature of the ability is basically a 1-card-fits all counter to any pokemon, because it literally just copies their sets. Apart from that, it's also very useful for doing things like scouting out the enemy's calcs, or deflecting hazards, or just revealing entire movesets. Against setup sweepers, Imposter reduces the entire matchup into a fifty-fifty where you're just praying that you attack first and don't lose the speed-tie. I think any ability that forces all setup mon situations into a diceroll isn't good for the metagame.

It's also extremely useful in nearly all situations. Throwing out an imposter on the first turn is the safest opening play in the entire metagame because of it's consistency and usefulness. You get to scout an entire mon and potentially see right into all of the opponents' strategies, allowing you to do things like setup with the opponents' own mons, or alternatively prevent setup. It drives me crazy whenever I see an imposter mon because it means that I can't setup in any way whatsoever, but then I also can't use any pokemon that's weakened and has priority, and I also can't hope to run a defensive pokemon with toxic.

And then with the ability to do this multiple times? Imposter has to be one of the strongest abilities in the entire metagame, and considering how many 50/50s it creates, one of the most braindead as well.
If anything, Imposter is the only glue holding this shitstorm of a meta together. Without it, considering the power of the offensive mons combined with setup moves like shell smash, BH instantly turns into even more of an HO fest where winning is decided by who gets to smash and click buttons first.

I feel like Flint summed Imposter up well in the gen 7 bans thread:
“Why isn’t Imposter banned? Imposter is one of the few things in BH that you have a near 100% expectation of what you'll be facing because you design the set. The only variation is the amount of HP and the item. Imposter-proofing ("Improofing") is woven into the entire experience of BH and the power of imposter is entirely dependent on your own teambuilding. Taking advantage of uncommon hard-counters to sweepers, trapping via Anchor/Waves and even its limited 20 pp movepool are all common and valid strategies.”

Imposter and its power is woven into the fabric of BH. Especially with the flexibility of BH, if your team loses to Imposter, that is entirely your fault. Taking it away would fundamentally change BH to an unrecognizable and unhealthy meta.

Of course, all of this isn’t even mentioning that Imposter is at a definite low point right now. Wobbuffet has frankly piss poor bulk compared to Chansey, which means that it is much easier to wear down over a match. Additionally, more and more Imposters are now running Choice Scarf since its bulk is much harder to abuse now. This change makes opposing Imposters much easier to exploit than in past gens.
 

E4 Flint

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Request: can we not use the “glue fabric” reasoning for imposter - I know this line of thought was popularized in earlier gens, but imposter should be judged as banworthy or not on its own merits not a hypothetical HO apocalyptic scenario. If an imposter ban would lead to such a dominance then those elements would be addressed via future tiering policy.

In my explanation last gen, I was very careful to not include this and I’m sure the current council would hold a similar stance regardless of their position on its ban-worthiness
 

GL Volkner

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Random detriment, but I've always found imposter to be such a horrifically annoying ability to fight against. The very nature of the ability is basically a 1-card-fits all counter to any pokemon, because it literally just copies their sets. Apart from that, it's also very useful for doing things like scouting out the enemy's calcs, or deflecting hazards, or just revealing entire movesets. Against setup sweepers, Imposter reduces the entire matchup into a fifty-fifty where you're just praying that you attack first and don't lose the speed-tie. I think any ability that forces all setup mon situations into a diceroll isn't good for the metagame.

It's also extremely useful in nearly all situations. Throwing out an imposter on the first turn is the safest opening play in the entire metagame because of it's consistency and usefulness. You get to scout an entire mon and potentially see right into all of the opponents' strategies, allowing you to do things like setup with the opponents' own mons, or alternatively prevent setup. It drives me crazy whenever I see an imposter mon because it means that I can't setup in any way whatsoever, but then I also can't use any pokemon that's weakened and has priority, and I also can't hope to run a defensive pokemon with toxic.

And then with the ability to do this multiple times? Imposter has to be one of the strongest abilities in the entire metagame, and considering how many 50/50s it creates, one of the most braindead as well.
What 50/50s are you referring to exactly? In my experience, playing against Imposter has been fairly linear and has no element of surprise in it, let alone 50/50s. Could it be that the team you're using is underprepared for it?

As far as I can tell, the bulk of your arguments only prove Imposter is really good. I don't see why it's unhealthy from your post, nor do I see why it's unhealthy from my experience in the metagame. If you were to expand on your reasoning, that'd be good, but I strongly encourage that you take some more time to adjust your team accordingly since it seems like your experience stems from a lack of preparation.
 
I would like to write more about Shell Smash and why I think it deserves some sort of control placed on it. Generational shifts have made Shell Smash much better than it was in Gen 7 in a myriad of ways, and I'll probably forget some of them in this post, so feel free to add on to or correct me if I miss something.

* Lower Defensive power of mons: The lower bulk of Pokemon this gen means that it is easier to break them by brute force with Shell Smash. This means that Shell Smash users don't have to be worried about being able to run only two moves, and can use their fourth moveslot to shut those defensive mons down such as with Spore or Taunt. It also means that they are easier to support with teammates, who don't need to lure or weaken the defensive mons, but can instead be used to support the team with Rapid Spin, Wish, or Status support.
* Weaker Priority users: Dark-Types are freer to set up this gen because of the lack of good Pixilate users. No one's running Mach Punch, and maybe they should start, but Mach Punch has little use other than to check Shell Smash Dark-types, accentuating the argument that preparing for Shell Smash spam significantly weakens the matchup against other teams. This doesn't even count for other Shell Smash spammers, only Dark-types (Darm-GZ doesn't die if it's at full health from a Zama-C Mach Punch).
* Better Hazard control: Court Change has been a godsend for these teams, which keeps their Focus Sashes intact. They don't need to worry about setting up their own hazards because the Shell Smash spam can break through everything without them. There is also Magic Guard Rapid Spin Darm-GZ if they decide to use that, which can afford to run Spectral Thief, V-Create, and Icicle crash in the other slots, letting it double as a check to opposing Smashers.
* VFB: Shell Smash can be combined with VFB for crazily strong coverage moves, since Shell Smash increases Speed so much that nothing unboosted or scarfed can outspeed its users. You may argue that VFB is a greater problem than Shell Smash, but I disagree. V-Create, Fisheous Rend and Bolt Beak each have a pool of viable users (if we take Shell Smash out of the equation), and other Pokemon who try to use these moves are seen mainly as gimmicks or off-meta. Shell Smash can be ran on just about anything with halfway reasonable offensive stats, meaning that you can't predict which Pokemon are using it from Team Preview like you can for VFB.
* Obstagoon: Yes, I'm including Obstagoon in its own section here. It's a Dark/Normal type with actually reasonable stats (I'm looking at you, Alolan Ratikate). Immunity to Spectral Thief and all targeted Prankster moves means the only way to stop its setup is with Prankster Haze, or having a mon that can kill it with a multi-hit move out while it sets up (This can fail if it's running White Herb, which many do). With Simple, it's able to run Extreme Speed/ multi Attack + Power Trip as its only coverage, Ohkoing things as bulky as Zacian-Crowned after setup. Taunt is probably its best fourth move, shutting down Prankster users after they haze and letting it set up again. Obstagoon becomes so powerful that it can even defeat Dynamax resists with Power Trip.

* Extreme Unpredictability: Building on from all the other points here, Shell Smash makes the metagame extremely unstable. There's no way to intuit that something's running Shell Smash, and there's no way to know what moves it could be running once it's set up without incurring serious losses that will probably lose you the game. Even if you try to prepare for Shell Smash with specialized sets, I guarantee you there's a Shell Smash team that can beat you, just because so many Pokemon can effectively run it. Power Trip users like Obstagoon, bulky versatile mons like Eternatus and Reshiram, Frail fast mons like Darm-GZ, even walls like Melmetal disguised as walls can all use Shell Smash to break through teams, bypassing any of the standard clauses like Form or Ability clause that could normally hold them up. This doesn't even get into the really gimmicky stuff like Baton Pass chains and Speed Boost mons.

My Solution: Banning Shell Smash may be the easiest thing to do, but it may be too drastic. I would instead prefer a Shell Smash clause limiting it to one user per team. There is already precedent for this in Gen 6's -Ate clause, which, no matter whether or not we agree with it, was implemented. I understand the extreme hesitation that people have with complex bans, but I think this one is a specific case that should be evaluated on its own.
In my opinion, Shell Smash is closer to an ability, like Intrepid Sword, than existing moves that we have banned such as Chatter or OHKO moves, which were banned because they turned the game into RNG. Shell Smash arguably removes nearly as much of the element of skill from the actual gameplay as RNG-based moves do.
Belly Drum Obstagoon can also KO most things:

+6 252+ Atk Obstagoon Power Trip (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Melmetal: 477-562 (100.6 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This means it can KO with Unburden since it doesn’t need a boosting item or ability, and can use Sitrus Berry to trigger so even Imposter cannot come in.

It can also run Extreme Speed to outpace -ate mons like Kyurem-B/W as well as Imposter and Prankster.

You Lonely and minimize Defense to KO imposter.

+6 252+ Atk Obstagoon Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Wobbuffet: 565-666 (96.7 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Obstagoon Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-Black: 352-415 (77.5 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

So Belly Drum, Power Trip, Extreme Speed, and filler such as Spore or Photon Geyser (Fur Coat Toxapex and Eternatus), handles Imposter, Prankster users, and can bypass Fur Coat.

+6 252+ Atk Obstagoon Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus: 606-714 (125.2 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Obstagoon Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta: 532-628 (137.1 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Obstagoon Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 205-242 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Belly Drum can replace Shell Smash for much of the same effect, and while it cannot repeatedly trigger Unburden, the same is said for Shell Smash (to outspeed Imposter).

Sitrus does let it also Belly Drum a second time.

If Shell Smash is banned, wont Belly Drum just take its place? Further, it allows all of your physical moves to boost to full potential; while Shell Smash is for Power Trip.
 
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cityscapes

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If Shell Smash is banned, wont Belly Drum just take its place? Further, it allows all of your physical moves to boost to full potential; while Shell Smash is for Power Trip.
drum has 2 hugely limiting factors in practice that prevent it from doing the same things as smash did. first of all, being restricted to physical attackers means that melmetal is much more reliable as a blanket setup check (most likely with prank) cause he lives nearly all the priority moves (only good exception i can think of is galv zekrom).

also, even if they bring vcreate or something for melmetal, the hp drop from drum still punishes them and they cant just set up for free on something else that might come in. this brings a real cost to setting up and makes these teams much more manageable offensively cause theyre constantly dealing damage to themselves in order to do anything.

imposter is also insanely difficult to manage with drummers. you need a hard counter for your guy and even then youre at risk of losing to dynamax. mons cant self improof with sash cause theyre drum, so your only options are unburden (which can lose to dynamax) and something like multi attack espeed mach ghosts (which are bad).

in theory drum looks about as scary as smash, but in practice i think it's the same situation as mega ray vs base ray last gen, where the small stat differences actually had a huge impact on its viability.
 
drum has 2 hugely limiting factors in practice that prevent it from doing the same things as smash did. first of all, being restricted to physical attackers means that melmetal is much more reliable as a blanket setup check (most likely with prank) cause he lives nearly all the priority moves (only good exception i can think of is galv zekrom).

also, even if they bring vcreate or something for melmetal, the hp drop from drum still punishes them and they cant just set up for free on something else that might come in. this brings a real cost to setting up and makes these teams much more manageable offensively cause theyre constantly dealing damage to themselves in order to do anything.

imposter is also insanely difficult to manage with drummers. you need a hard counter for your guy and even then youre at risk of losing to dynamax. mons cant self improof with sash cause theyre drum, so your only options are unburden (which can lose to dynamax) and something like multi attack espeed mach ghosts (which are bad).

in theory drum looks about as scary as smash, but in practice i think it's the same situation as mega ray vs base ray last gen, where the small stat differences actually had a huge impact on its viability.
Ya, or just Triage Drain Punch for Melmetal, as even non-Fighting types can KO it after Belly Drum:
+6 252+ Atk Triage Aegislash-Blade Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Melmetal: 464-548 (97.8 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (no item boost)

The great thing about Triage is you can also heal off the damage from Belly Drum by attacking, so you can set up repeatedly, and also use Life Orb. This makes other attacks strong enough on even neutral hits-

+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus: 428-504 (88.4 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So Prankster users in Eterantus and Melmetal are KOed, and this is all without STAB. Anyways, your point is overall true, but I find there are always key exceptions.
One thing I found is just Improofing with Unaware:
252+ Atk Imposter Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta: 69-82 (17.7 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO

A moveset like Mach Punch, Knock Off / Spectral Thief, Recover, Belly Drum.

Zamazenta is rare in that it has great Speed, Attack, and Bulk.

This allows you to set up and Heal as needed, and keep your offensive pressure against Melmetal, not get threatened by Dynamax, and still function as a check to other set up sweepers (and at least versus Intrepid Sword). Coverage against Ghosts pairs well with STAB, and affords useful secondary effects.

Even after taking Belly Drum, it can survive hits and is fast enough to use Recover the following turn, so it can stay afloat. Plus, since it is still fast, it won’t need a secondary priority move, and can afford to just opt for a coverage move.

Sure, your examples of Ghosts with Immunity provide anti-Imposter responses, but simply surviving is all that is needed, and Zamazenta can effectively live to tell the tale after a boost and not fear Imposter thanks to Unaware.

Lastly, Unaware was already seen on its Crowned Form, with one benefit of taking boosts, and even surviving SpA / Mixed sweepers who use Shell Smash, whereas Fur Coat only helps against Physical Attacks
I have recently began using of a cool set:

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Fighting Memory
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Multi-Attack
- Shift Gear / Sunsteel Strike
- Recover / Sunsteel Strike

This set works similarly to the Excadrill set I created, but serves as a Defensive utility, bypassing opposing Zamazenta-Crowned’s Cotton Guard, and ignoring Intrepid Swords, or set up boosting moves.

Ultimately, it stays Imposterproof due to not taking boosts from it, even if the foe uses Spectral Thief, and can use a Super Effective Attack while the foe cannot use Fighting STAB.

Zamazenta-Crowned has been known for using Unaware in the past, but now it doesn’t have to focus on just taking hits, it has a more effective way of dealing them, with Multi Attack, keeping the power of Close Combat with zero drawbacks.

Sunsteel works well to dent Fur Coat like Eternatus, while breaking down PH Zacian.
 
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I should probably address two points here which I feel are important.

375px-446Munchlax.png
First, Imposter. Imposter has always been a staple of BH, but I wouldn't say it holds the meta together. Its presence has always led to a unique teambuilding process known as imposter-proofing. Imposter-proofing is when you add checks to your own pokemon on your team. The idea being Imposter has a much more difficult time getting any momentum upon switching in. Almost anything can be an improof. I've even used Imposter as an improof to my pokemon as Imposter doesn't activate on transformed pokemon and Snorlax/Munchlax (and Chansey in gen 7) are already good special walls.

There's a few issues with this, though. Not all improofs are perfect. Not all situations will be the same. Sometimes Imposter can gain momentum by pivoting when you switch in your improof, a specific scenario being a FC/Scales improof for a Band/Specs mon. Here's an example of one of my teams here.

Kyurem-White @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Dynamax Cannon
- Earth Power
- U-turn
Note: Volt Switch is usually standard on Specs users but U-turn is fine if you're improofing with a Water-type.

Primarina @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Moonblast
- Scald
- Spectral Thief

Fairly standard specs Kyu-W set. It's improofed by this Primarina set. It's not the greatest example, but Imposters can gain momentum by pivoting off my Primarina. Otherwise Kyurem-W cannot do anything to Primarina. Also of note RegenVest users can still thrive in the meta despite Ice Scales having higher usage, as I've said in my previous post. There are other Pokemon which can work as improofs for Kyurem-W as well, such as Ice Scales Snorlax, but I specifically chose Primarina for my use case.
Imposter can also use Dynamax to its advantage to try and break improofs. But both of these scenarios are controlled specifically by your teambuilding. Even with Dynamax, Imposter usually fails to break good improofs. I know momentum is much more difficult to deal with, which is why some mons will forego pivoting moves in favor of trapping moves. This is seen more often on defensive pokemon because they can afford the moveslot and also denying Imposter the opportunity to heal itself is critical. Anchor Shot Melmetal is a common example. Trapping Imposter will guarantee they faint because they only have 5 PP on each move.
Imposter has to be one of the strongest abilities in the entire metagame, and considering how many 50/50s it creates, one of the most braindead as well.
I personally do not agree with this due to the reasons outlined above. Given you can control every aspect of your team, you can also control how effective Imposter is at any given time. It's difficult, and I am not saying it's necessarily healthy for the metagame as I've seen legitimate arguments saying it restricts teambuilding, but it can be done. One thing I should point out is that I see "hyper offense" being mentioned a lot in this thread. Hyper offense doesn't exist beyond Shell Smash spam, and it never will because of Imposter. If your team is too offensive, even in the context of spamming Shell Smash, Imposter can and will beat you. "True" HO cannot exist in BH as it currently stands. The logic being if your team cannot be improofed, it won't win against Imposter. Even in Gen 7 where the amount of options were nearly unlimited, building a "true" HO team was nearly impossible. In Gen 8, you will only ever see balance teams, with very occasional semi-stall.

Now, the main reason I wanted to talk about Imposter was a point abriel gabram brought up.
If anything, Imposter is the only glue holding this shitstorm of a meta together. Without it, considering the power of the offensive mons combined with setup moves like shell smash, BH instantly turns into even more of an HO fest where winning is decided by who gets to smash and click buttons first.
One quirk with BH that has always existed is Imposter rises in viability with setup. The more you see Shell Smash, the more you see Imposter. This is because Imposter is often used at the highest level of play specifically as a check to setup. Scarf Imposter is used to get the upper hand on Shell Smash sweepers. It is the only reliable offensive check due to Dazzling. The only reliable defensive check is Prankster Haze. But I would not call this healthy for the meta. The only reason Imposter is seeing increased use recently is due to Shell Smash. Deal with Shell Smash and Imposter use goes down. Same stuff happened in Gen 7 when people were discussing Shell Smash as a potential issue. Whenever Shell Smash usage spiked, be it through an RMT or something else, Imposter usage usually followed.

---

Secondly, I would like to speak about setup again. Belly Drum was brought up as something of concern should we ban Shell Smash. I should note that one of the reasons Shell Smash is so difficult to deal with is because it enables physical, special, and mixed attackers simultaneously, and on top of this it boosts speed. Belly Drum does not boost speed (Unburden was already mentioned). Of the setup moves that do boost speed, Shift Gear gives half the boosts smash does and does not boost Special Attack, while Quiver Dance boosts Special Defense rather than Attack and also gives half the boosts. One thing about Shell Smash is it's immediately threatening turn two, whereas every single other setup move is either not as strong or has drawbacks. Shell Smash does have a drawback, but reducing defenses means very little with White Herb and Focus Sash. Sometimes even then it doesn't matter.

Every single other setup move is more manageable either through requiring more setup to be equally threatening or having drawbacks that are more noticeable than Shell Smash. They're more manageable by simply having more checks as well. Spectral Thief alone makes other forms of setup much more difficult.
 
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I should probably address two points here which I feel are important.

View attachment 235774
First, Imposter. Imposter has always been a staple of BH, but I wouldn't say it holds the meta together. Its presence has always led to a unique teambuilding process known as imposter-proofing. Imposter-proofing is when you add checks to your own pokemon on your team. The idea being Imposter has a much more difficult time getting any momentum upon switching in. Almost anything can be an improof. I've even used Imposter as an improof to my pokemon as Imposter doesn't activate on transformed pokemon and Snorlax/Munchlax (and Chansey in gen 7) are already good special walls.

There's a few issues with this, though. Not all improofs are perfect. Not all situations will be the same. Sometimes Imposter can gain momentum by pivoting when you switch in your improof, a specific scenario being a FC/Scales improof for a Band/Specs mon. Here's an example of one of my teams here.

Kyurem-White @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Dynamax Cannon
- Earth Power
- U-turn
Note: Volt Switch is usually standard on Specs users but U-turn is fine if you're improofing with a Water-type.

Primarina @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Moonblast
- Scald
- Spectral Thief

Fairly standard specs Kyu-W set. It's improofed by this Primarina set. It's not the greatest example, but Imposters can gain momentum by pivoting off my Primarina. Otherwise Kyurem-W cannot do anything to Primarina. Also of note RegenVest users can still thrive in the meta despite Ice Scales having higher usage, as I've said in my previous post. There are other Pokemon which can work as improofs for Kyurem-W as well, such as Ice Scales Snorlax, but I specifically chose Primarina for my use case.
Imposter can also use Dynamax to its advantage to try and break improofs. But both of these scenarios are controlled specifically by your teambuilding. Even with Dynamax, Imposter usually fails to break good improofs. I know momentum is much more difficult to deal with, which is why some mons will forego pivoting moves in favor of trapping moves. This is seen more often on defensive pokemon because they can afford the moveslot and also denying Imposter the opportunity to heal itself is critical. Anchor Shot Melmetal is a common example. Trapping Imposter will guarantee they faint because they only have 5 PP on each move.

I personally do not agree with this due to the reasons outlined above. Given you can control every aspect of your team, you can also control how effective Imposter is at any given time. It's difficult, and I am not saying it's necessarily healthy for the metagame as I've seen legitimate arguments saying it restricts teambuilding, but it can be done. One thing I should point out is that I see "hyper offense" being mentioned a lot in this thread. Hyper offense doesn't exist beyond Shell Smash spam, and it never will because of Imposter. If your team is too offensive, even in the context of spamming Shell Smash, Imposter can and will beat you. "True" HO cannot exist in BH as it currently stands. The logic being if your team cannot be improofed, it won't win against Imposter. Even in Gen 7 where the amount of options were nearly unlimited, building a "true" HO team was nearly impossible. In Gen 8, you will only ever see balance teams, with very occasional semi-stall.

Now, the main reason I wanted to talk about Imposter was a point abriel gabram brought up.

One quirk with BH that has always existed is Imposter rises in viability with setup. The more you see Shell Smash, the more you see Imposter. This is because Imposter is often used at the highest level of play specifically as a check to setup. Scarf Imposter is used to get the upper hand on Shell Smash sweepers. It is the only reliable offensive check due to Dazzling. The only reliable defensive check is Prankster Haze. But I would not call this healthy for the meta. The only reason Imposter is seeing increased use recently is due to Shell Smash. Deal with Shell Smash and Imposter use goes down. Same stuff happened in Gen 7 when people were discussing Shell Smash as a potential issue. Whenever Shell Smash usage spiked, be it through an RMT or something else, Imposter usage usually followed.

---

Secondly, I would like to speak about setup again. Belly Drum was brought up as something of concern should we ban Shell Smash. I should note that one of the reasons Shell Smash is so difficult to deal with is because it enables physical, special, and mixed attackers simultaneously, and on top of this it boosts speed. Belly Drum does not boost speed (Unburden was already mentioned). Of the setup moves that do boost speed, Shift Gear gives half the boosts smash does and does not boost Special Attack, while Quiver Dance boosts Special Defense rather than Attack and also gives half the boosts. One thing about Shell Smash is it's immediately threatening turn two, whereas every single other setup move is either not as strong or has drawbacks. Shell Smash does have a drawback, but reducing defenses means very little with White Herb and Focus Sash. Sometimes even then it doesn't matter.

Every single other setup move is more manageable either through requiring more setup to be equally threatening or having drawbacks that are more noticeable than Shell Smash. They're more manageable by simply having more checks as well. Spectral Thief alone makes other forms of setup much more difficult.
I think one thing to consider for your argument is that Shell Smash, on Unburden sets or not, will use other items like White Herb, or Focus Sash, which means that it achieves a flat +2 (2 x) boost.

Quiver Dance, and Shift Gear provide a flat +1 (1.5 x) boost, but if you add Life Orb, that makes the 1.5 x 1.3 = 1.95

This means you don’t have to stick for situational one time use items like Focus Sash, or White Herb, and you get a 1.3 x boost before you even set up.

This is the same as using Tough Claws (or Adaptability) and Choice Band/Specs, versus Shell Smash.

The difference is 5%, or equal (in the case of Adaptability boosting 1/3, rather than 30%).

Ultimately while you could technically get away with Life Orb and Shell Smash, it’s a bigger risk when you have compromised your Defenses.

If your argument is: Shell Smash boosts 2 x while Quiver Dance boosts 1.5 x - then bear in mind this only really makes a difference when you use Simple, or boost with Shell Smash multiple times in a row, when comparing non-Life Orb Shell Smash to Life Orb Shift Gear / Quiver Dance.

Another boosting move not mentioned is Throat Spray + Clangorous Soul. Which provides an immediate +1 to all stats, and then another +1 to Spa for +2 SpA total. That also raises defenses, by 1.5 which more than makes up for lowering HP by 1/3.

Shell Smash without White Herb cuts both Defenses by 1/3 at -1 Def / SpD, so it looks equivalent, before you consider Clangorous Soul boosts Def / SpD.

Both can be used for Power Trip and Stored Power, even on Simple sets, as Throat Spray allows it to equal Shell Smash in terms of SpA boosts, without compromising Defense/SpD stats (now doubling Defenses and even more so that before making up for the HP Drop).
Lastly, Throat Spray can be used on Unburden sets to boost SpA and keep up with Shell Smash. Since Unburden is a one-time use, it doesn’t feel like a compromise to use Throat Spray since you are going to lose Unburden on switch outs, regardless.

So I think if you are using Life Orb that keeps Shift Gear Quiver Dance on par with Shell Smash, and Clangorous Soul + Throat Spray on par with Shell Smash.

Plus, getting switched into any chip damage like hazards compromised Focus Sash, so Life Orb is much more reliable on a Quiver Dance or Shift Gear, for consistence, than Focus Sash Shell Smash.

Lastly, like Clangorous Soul, Quiver Dance helps you Imposterproof thanks to the raised SpD. This was exemplified by Xerneas last generation.

So besides Speed, which is tied by Shift Gear - regardless, it can be really difficult to view non-Life Orb Shell Smash as much better unless you are using Simple, and even then Clangorous Soul + Throat Spray can be used to get a matching SpA boost.
 
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I attribute the success of my RMT team more on the effectiveness of mixed sets (and other lures like final gambit) being able to break fur coat/ice scales pokemon rather than spamming Shell Smash itself.

For example, a Naughty +2 close combat from Reshiram OHKOs both Ice Scales Snorlax and Umbreon, and Fur Coat Melmetal struggles to deal with Kyurem-Black’s Earth Power and gets guarantee OHKO’d by +2 Blue Flare.

No other setup move can boost Attack and Special Attack to dangerous levels at the same time (bUt GroWth unDer sUn) and that has been overbearing for a lot of teams. I highly doubt any other boosting move can be used to the same degree of success.

Although I have been abusing Shell Smash since the beginning of the gen, I do support a Shell Smash ban and I honestly think limiting teams to 1 shell smash is an idea worth trying out.
 
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I would go for 2 shell smash users and maybe focus sash limit as well.Sash smash spam is braindead but a shell smash removal would limit a lot of punishing on switches/hazard setting or general support moves since as ppl mentioned most other boosting moves are much easier to deal with.Mixed sets like fwef mentioned still are hard to abuse cc resh for example thrives cuz there are so much more stuff to account for in the building as an anti meta set more so than an outright broken smash abuser.Also the ho being more apparent on ladder isnt so much it being the best playstyle (ive used a lot of ho teams myself,although i didnt invest much effort in building them,i got some 6-0 sweeps vc decent players but i didnt have much consistent success)rather than I its (sometimes)enjoyable/games go faster and
II balance is harder than ever to build,vs darm u play guessing games and an easy counter to interpind band 170bp is sash smashing

ps How court change works and with the meta rn in general there is a strong buff to focus sash spam which already was a problematic thing in gen7 imo
 
A true Champion doesn’t just win, they champion those who need it most.

I would like to revive this thread from 6 days of inactivity - here goes:

I am in support of a Shell Smash clause, but not a ban.

I agree with 2 Pokemon per team carrying it, but I know they also had a 2 per team Ability Clause last generation (which the leaders/council said would not happen again, as 2 was an arbitrary number and they feel that no clause, 1 max, or just 0 (none), is best).

I feel like we should have 2 because there is no guarantee that a move, unlike a form, forme, or ability will happen. With a form, or ability that can be used automatically like a Zen Mode, or Fur Coat), while a move must be selected. This difference means that just because you use a Pokemon that has the move doesn’t mean you are going to use the move.

Since moves, unlike abilities, forms, items, etc. are not automatic, I feel like it would Okay to have 2 on a team as a limit, rather than just 1, because every team that has a form or ability can use those, usually automatically, while moves are separate for having to be chosen, and can be prevented with Taunt, or Encore, etc.

Let’s move to finalization on what a Shell Smash clause would look like: 1, 2, or none per team.
 
Or how about we wait for the Council to make a statement before jumping to conclusions about what we are going to do?

For the record I think a clause for Shell Smash is unnecessary and won't fix the problem at hand. You can still make incredible progress and be insanely threatening with 2 Shell Smash users. In fact I'd argue fwqef's team is the exception, not the norm. His team is a true HO team. I already mentioned that you can't simply build teams nearly as offensive as his in my previous post. Aside from people using his team from his RMT, next to no one actually builds teams with 3 or more Shell Smash abusers. I won't lie, they are still extremely difficult to deal with and I am not trying to downplay them at all, but most players do not build to extremes. Based on my experience, the most effective teams focus on eliminating counterplay to setup, which is exactly why fwqef's team works so well despite it having virtually zero defensive capability.

That doesn't even bring up the fact that this is also a complex ban. But when I support or oppose something, I try to see the benefits or downsides that would come with it. I see very little practical benefit (this basically only bans fwqef's team) to this while likely making the issue at hand worse. Say this clause were implemented. New players see this clause, they immediately gravitate towards Shell Smash sweepers, making usage skyrocket, which would in turn end up just getting the move banned entirely. At that point you come to wonder why you even bothered making the clause to begin with.

Say you made the clause 1 Shell Smash abuser per team. You can't spam Shell Smash any more. That doesn't detract from the fundamental issues of Shell Smash. You still get more power turn 1 compared to any of the other setup moves. Power Trip and Stored Power make mons unwallable. It's still possible to make lures that are nearly impossible to beat. It still enables mixed sets that are incredibly difficult for this meta to wall (fwqef's Reshiram with Close Combat is an excellent example). Defensive counterplay is already extremely limited. Meanwhile Smash offers a ton of offensive opportunity. There's hardly anything it doesn't enable. The meta is not well equipped to handle this like it was in Gen 7, and people were already complaining about it in Gen 7 to the point of where it was a prominent subject for a period of time

Ultimately, a Clause for Shell Smash is incredibly narrow in scope. I think it's a stupid solution. It's stupid because it dances around the issue in an attempt to keep Shell Smash partially legal when there's no good argument to do so and no good precedent to implement this clause. I do want Shell Smash banned. But I would rather it be done outright than with a complex ban. If there is one thing I absolutely do not want to see, it's the false notion of progress. I don't see a clause improving things significantly, if at all.
 
Or how about we wait for the Council to make a statement before jumping to conclusions about what we are going to do?

For the record I think a clause for Shell Smash is unnecessary and won't fix the problem at hand. You can still make incredible progress and be insanely threatening with 2 Shell Smash users. In fact I'd argue fwqef's team is the exception, not the norm. His team is a true HO team. I already mentioned that you can't simply build teams nearly as offensive as his in my previous post. Aside from people using his team from his RMT, next to no one actually builds teams with 3 or more Shell Smash abusers. I won't lie, they are still extremely difficult to deal with and I am not trying to downplay them at all, but most players do not build to extremes. Based on my experience, the most effective teams focus on eliminating counterplay to setup, which is exactly why fwqef's team works so well despite it having virtually zero defensive capability.

That doesn't even bring up the fact that this is also a complex ban. But when I support or oppose something, I try to see the benefits or downsides that would come with it. I see very little practical benefit (this basically only bans fwqef's team) to this while likely making the issue at hand worse. Say this clause were implemented. New players see this clause, they immediately gravitate towards Shell Smash sweepers, making usage skyrocket, which would in turn end up just getting the move banned entirely. At that point you come to wonder why you even bothered making the clause to begin with.

Say you made the clause 1 Shell Smash abuser per team. You can't spam Shell Smash any more. That doesn't detract from the fundamental issues of Shell Smash. You still get more power turn 1 compared to any of the other setup moves. Power Trip and Stored Power make mons unwallable. It's still possible to make lures that are nearly impossible to beat. It still enables mixed sets that are incredibly difficult for this meta to wall (fwqef's Reshiram with Close Combat is an excellent example). Defensive counterplay is already extremely limited. Meanwhile Smash offers a ton of offensive opportunity. There's hardly anything it doesn't enable. The meta is not well equipped to handle this like it was in Gen 7, and people were already complaining about it in Gen 7 to the point of where it was a prominent subject for a period of time

Ultimately, a Clause for Shell Smash is incredibly narrow in scope. I think it's a stupid solution. It's stupid because it dances around the issue in an attempt to keep Shell Smash partially legal when there's no good argument to do so and no good precedent to implement this clause. I do want Shell Smash banned. But I would rather it be done outright than with a complex ban. If there is one thing I absolutely do not want to see, it's the false notion of progress. I don't see a clause improving things significantly, if at all.
WRONG
At the moment, the council is against a suspect on DGZ.
There is no doubt that it is a prominent threat in the metagame thanks to its great STAB combination and offensive stats, but it certainly has its checks and counters. Offensively, five fairly prominent Pokemon outspeed DGZ and threaten to OHKO it, cripple it, or at least force it out. Defensively, bulky Pokemon including but not limited to Melmetal, Zamazenta-C, Eternatus, and Seismitoad can run abilities like Flash Fire, Primordial Sea, and Fur Coat to stomach its attacks. DGZ also has pretty thin defenses along with a crippling weakness to Stealth Rock, both of which can limit its opportunities to be a wallbreaker.

Mold Breaker, Desolate Land, Intrepid Sword, and Magic Guard are all very good sets for DGZ, with each one giving it an edge over one check but leaving it checked by another. With the Forme Clause implemented, DGZ is limited to one slot, meaning one of these abilities and two coverage moves along with its STAB moves. Meanwhile, the checks I mentioned above, as well as others not mentioned, like certain Reshiram variants, are all very viable in the current metagame for checking not only DGZ but other physical threats like Zacian-C, Zamazenta, Zekrom, Zeraora, and Barraskewda. These defensive mons pair together nicely to form viable defensive cores that can check many prominent offensive threats. So while DGZ can change up its ability and moves to bypass certain mons, like Grass-type moves for Seismitoad or Mold Breaker for Flash Fire, it can't cover all its checks when limited to just one set.

DGZ using Dynamax is another thing. I've mainly seen it using Dynamax to bypass softer checks like Ferrothorn and Corviknight, who rely on abilities to check DGZ but take neutral damage from its Ice-type STAB. This is usually done by Dynamaxing after being denied a V-create and using Max Hailstorm or other Max Moves depending on coverage, like Lightning or Knuckle to muscle past these soft checks. Other than these instances, DGZ loses out on Choice Band/Scarf boosts by Dynamaxing.
That being said, we don't really see a clear direction to go for the next suspect. This isn't to say we think the meta is in a perfectly healthy place right now, though. Things like Bolt/Rend and V-create are certainly very strong, and I've discussed these in the past as well, but the rise of Eternatus sets like Fur Coat and Prankster haven't been kind to these moves. We welcome more discussion from you all, not only about what should or shouldn't be banned but stuff about the metagame in general. There are still plenty of things to try out and learn about this meta!
If you read the most recent post from a loser regarding potential bans (not including a more recent posts about how Copycat is niche) , he actually encouraged us to feel free and discuss what we feel will be the most important direction to take, as the council doesn't know what direction to go for the next suspect.

Dynamax remains unbanned!

Discuss any other potential suspect worthy attributes of the metagame here. We appreciate community input as always and want to ensure that we have the most stable metagame coming into the highly anticipated OMPL!
[/QUOTE]
If you read the most recent Funbot28 post, they also welcome any suspect topics we may have.
*********
To suggest I shouldn't post about Shell Smash clause because I am trying to not "wait" for council, is wrong, and saying so is not understanding my point. We are encouraged by council, not discouraged by council, to discuss suspects. At no point did they suggest to hold off and that we shouldn't discuss it anymore.

I was actually just continuing where the discussion left off, almost a week ago, which acknowledged a 2 Shell Smash per team limit:
I would go for 2 shell smash users and maybe focus sash limit as well.Sash smash spam is braindead but a shell smash removal would limit a lot of punishing on switches/hazard setting or general support moves since as ppl mentioned most other boosting moves are much easier to deal with.Mixed sets like fwef mentioned still are hard to abuse cc resh for example thrives cuz there are so much more stuff to account for in the building as an anti meta set more so than an outright broken smash abuser.Also the ho being more apparent on ladder isnt so much it being the best playstyle (ive used a lot of ho teams myself,although i didnt invest much effort in building them,i got some 6-0 sweeps vc decent players but i didnt have much consistent success)rather than I its (sometimes)enjoyable/games go faster and
II balance is harder than ever to build,vs darm u play guessing games and an easy counter to interpind band 170bp is sash smashing

ps How court change works and with the meta rn in general there is a strong buff to focus sash spam which already was a problematic thing in gen7 imo
So I was showing I agree.
_______________
P.S. I also was not jumping to conclusions, if anything I thought the thread was kinda dead and I wanted to resume the topics that were most recently discussed.

Please don't assume I was trying to rush the council to make any decision, if anything, I figured since the sheer number of people that liked to discuss a Shell Smash clause from DF-Shock to SuperSkylake to fwqef to you -it would make sense to consider what kind of clause would be preferred, so we can ultimately think (if we do want to have a suspect, how should we clause it, because that would impact whether people want it to go in that direction or not).

So I didn't rush council, if anything I discussed what we were already discussing. If anything, I was asking the other people who were discussing it to come to an idea of what their concerns about Shell Smash should be handled with: 2, 1, or complete ban?

From there, we would discuss to council if we want a 2, 1, or complete ban suspect. Council would be after / during, not before.

Since it would be strange to say "suspect Shell Smash" without knowing how we want to limit it.

Please speak for yourself, as I didn't even obligate the council; my only point was to highlight how it could justify a potential 2 Pokemon using Shell Smash limit, so we can consider different options, and that is just an idea.
Anyways, I don't see a problem with discussing a clause already discussed, I know you misinterpreted my post, but please don't assume I am trying to overstep.

#Forgiven

 
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cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Community Contributor
id be down for full smash ban tbh, you dont have to deal w weird clauses and even ignoring that, i think we stand to lose much more than we gain by allowing a more limited form of smash. it's both really powerful and really polarizing (either you consistently beat it or lose instantly) and because of the diversity of offensive threats that can effectively use it, there isnt really a "safe" prank that you can slap on your team to avoid losing to everything. it overall just promotes far too much inconsistency compared to the unique skills it rewards within the context of gen 8. i had a draft that went into more depth but skylake and storm eagle have already done a fine job of that.

a shell smash removal would limit a lot of punishing on switches/hazard setting or general support moves since as ppl mentioned most other boosting moves are much easier to deal with
this makes no sense to me. your argument is that keeping smash discourages doing anything other than hitting the other pokemon with your strongest move, and this is somehow a good thing? never mind the fact that hazards and switching are more punishable than ever thanks to court change and beak+rend. i dont really understand what youre trying to get at here

not gonna address leon's posts cause he didnt even talk about smash as an element, just the council and that weird "they might not use the move" argument
 
Putting my opinions here:
I am in favour of a Shell Smash Ban (preferably a quickban even though I know people hate quickbans but something like Shell Smash is going to be DNBed by a lot of ladder heroes that rely on Smash to cheese games).
There are a couple reasons why Shell Smash is problematic. Shell Smash was already a controversial topic last gen, and there have been several changes that benefit it this gen.

1. Imposter
Imposter being heavily nerfed and drastic drop in usage heavily favours Shell Smash as Scarf Imposter is a very strong check to nearly all Smashers with their Sash broken. Furthermore, the low usage rate limits scouting of sets, meaning one has a lot harder time in being able to predict whether a mon carries Smash or not.

2. Offensive diversity
There are a lot of mons that can successfully utilize Shell Smash, basically any mon with reasonable offensive power and typing is capable of being a huge threat after setup. Etern, GDZ, Zama(-C), Resh, Zek, Kyu, Lunala, Mewtwo, NDW, you name it. This huge diversity in potential Smashers limits the possibilities of good blanket checks against them, especially when all of them have strong wallbreaking sets too. It also leads to scenarios where a player is forced to sack a mon because an opposing mon just carries Shell Smash when it usually doesn't. As for why the player doesn't switch to their Prank right away...

3. Prankster
A rather indirect nerf. Prankster is IMO a lot worse than last gen, primarily due to the power spike. The strong wallbreakers relative to the walls mandates the use of FurScales to check or the use of Immunity abilities. Thus, Prankster mons are more often than not unable to check the wallbreaker sets (unlike last gen, where Prank ZygTina was able to blanket check a large amount of wallbreakers in addition to setup sweepers, example is the Giratina vs MMX matchup where Prank Tina can basically scout for free since both Band sets and Smash sets usually lose to Prank Tina, and the opponent would have to rely on gimmicks like Fridge/Pixi). This means that the defensive player must correctly guess whether a mon is a Smasher or a Breaker, otherwise he loses a mon. The natural power increase also means that Smashers have an easier time breaking past Pranksters through brute force, which means that most Pranksters actually have to have type advantage to check sweepers.

4. Hazards
Court Change is a huge boon for Shell Smash. Even though some have argued that Court Change is detrimental to offensive teams, Smashers on slower teams greatly appreciate the momentum gaining removal of hazards that could lead to a Defog which can be a free Smash. The buffed Rapid Spin along with basically 0 good ghosts also means that even if players play the long game they can no longer stall out single Defog using hazards. Without hazards to control sashes Smashers have more freedom to go rampant.

5. Speed control
This gen is very scarce in strong priority. The only speed control that is actually used is Zac-C, -ate Kyu-B and stray Sucker Punch users. There are basically no other -ates, no good Triage users, and no natural priority users. As a result Smashers can actually afford to forgo DQM to increase breaking power. Use of abilities like Mold Breaker also allow users to bluff standard sets.

Dynamax has pros and cons where Smashers can avoid revenge kill but defensive mons can also avoid being OHKOed and retaliate. Generally positive for Smash though as moves like Spectral, Glare, Wisp all lose their main effect.

Overall Smash is just very uncompetitive as its a fairly low risk high reward move that can be splashed onto anything and end up cheesing wins because your opponent's Prankster doesn't beat your Smasher or your opponent had to sack a mon because you Smashed and they didn't expect it etc.
 
What I think:

A clause seems kinda silly. I don't like the idea of random clauses for everything and I think one smash mon is almost as dumb as 2 or 3 if it's the right mon at the right time. In general I think clauses add unnecessary complication, especially when they are not commonly accepted clauses in different meta (I'm not saying this should stop us introducing something necessary - like with the comaphaze clause - but there is certainly a higher "cost" in confusion and inaccessibility to more wacky and wonderful clauses, where something like a species clause is widely known and understood so doesn't have this problem), and I really don't think smash is something worth "saving" with a clause if it's worth acting on in the first place.

I wouldn't be opposed to a smash suspect, it's always been dumb and works on literally anything with half decent stats (throwback to winning in OMWC with double simple smash zygarde-c). However I personally feel like the Borken Moves (BMs) are more borken. BMs are extremely powerful with very minor drawbacks, two of them have good PP and even if you don't go first they're 85 bp as well as having 100 accuracy while the other BM always has 180 bp with good accuracy and the stat drops are not too limiting if you net a kill with it or if its against slow defensive mons like Melmetal. BMs are the key element in a lot of borkenline sets like darmgz, random smash sets, weather etc and are extremely limiting to the meta: they force they use of quite specific defensive mons and punish running anything but the fastest or bulkiest offensive mons and are extremely spamable even by mons such as Zac-c or KyuB which have no natural STAB advantage with them.
 
What I think:

A clause seems kinda silly. I don't like the idea of random clauses for everything and I think one smash mon is almost as dumb as 2 or 3 if it's the right mon at the right time. In general I think clauses add unnecessary complication, especially when they are not commonly accepted clauses in different meta (I'm not saying this should stop us introducing something necessary - like with the comaphaze clause - but there is certainly a higher "cost" in confusion and inaccessibility to more wacky and wonderful clauses, where something like a species clause is widely known and understood so doesn't have this problem), and I really don't think smash is something worth "saving" with a clause if it's worth acting on in the first place.

I wouldn't be opposed to a smash suspect, it's always been dumb and works on literally anything with half decent stats (throwback to winning in OMWC with double simple smash zygarde-c). However I personally feel like the Borken Moves (BMs) are more borken. BMs are extremely powerful with very minor drawbacks, two of them have good PP and even if you don't go first they're 85 bp as well as having 100 accuracy while the other BM always has 180 bp with good accuracy and the stat drops are not too limiting if you net a kill with it or if its against slow defensive mons like Melmetal. BMs are the key element in a lot of borkenline sets like darmgz, random smash sets, weather etc and are extremely limiting to the meta: they force they use of quite specific defensive mons and punish running anything but the fastest or bulkiest offensive mons and are extremely spamable even by mons such as Zac-c or KyuB which have no natural STAB advantage with them.
It wasn’t even my original idea :pikuh:

Well anyways, I don’t know if the 3 attacks are more of an issue, tbh, as you can literally become immune to to them, (even against Mold Breakers thanks to Weather), while Shell Smash can cause almost any attack to become OP, and causes Lunala/Dawn Wings to really skyrocket with Stored Power, while Power Trip puts Bisharp and Tyranitar on the map alongside even weaker attackers like Obstagoon which was previously obscure.

Plus, many players can just run Fur Coat on a Dragon (like Eternatus) since they are all physical moves, while Shell Smash can be Physical, Mixed, or Special.

Shell Smash makes > 85 base power attacks > VC, FR, and BB, as making any decent offensive Pokemon OP can override defenses easily.

The attacks alone don’t really help Special Attackers and can each be resisted by the Dragon-type, and fail to provide consistency due to their drawbacks, while Shell Smash... well - quite literally Smashes past typical checks.

Please, don’t @ me! ;)
 
Last edited:

MAMP

mamp
is a Pre-Contributor
Hi everyone! As per discussion in this thread and on Discord, the BH Council has decided to hold a suspect test to decide whether or not to ban Shell Smash. We decided against any sort of clause on Shell Smash in favour of just a ban on the move itself. We feel that a clause would needlessly complicate the banlist and would not properly address the problem, as OMPL matches this week have demonstrated that even a single Shell Smash user can still be problematic.

The suspect thread can be found here.
 
Hello, all!

Firstly, I just want to preface this post by saying I am a relative outsider to BH. So feel free to take this post with a grain of salt, particularly if you play and contribute to BH a lot more than I do.

That being said, I wanted to take some time to address the idea of Suspecting Shell Smash in Gen 8 BH. I have some concerns. Now, to reiterate my initial point, I have not played an enormous amount of Gen 8 BH, but what I've seen so far in the battles I've played and watched seems awfully devoid of offense. Every tier, even those touted to be the most balanced, has its offensive threats to contend with: ADV OU has Band Salamence for example; Gen 7 AG, GeoXern. And yes, to answer the obvious response to this, this is what suspecting is for. You're identifying a threat to the inherent competitiveness of a tier and having active contributors to a tier decide whether it should be banned or not. But my point is that it seems to me the offensive options in BH are being extinguished. First it was Neutralizing Gas, which was understandable at least in part because Ngas is such a metagame-altering ability that suddenly appeared and would, as can be seen at the start of Gen 8 BH last year, dominate the metagame. (In Gen 8 PH, the vast majority of Pokémon run Ngas, with the exception of an occasional or rare Magic Bounce, Comatose, or Wonder Guard user). Then came a Dynamaxing Suspect, and fortunately that's still a possibility. But where does this lead and how far might it extend? Shell Smash at least to me has seemed like an integral part of both PH and BH.

I understand that Balanced Hackmons is called Balanced Hackmons for a reason. The whole function of this tier as we all well know is to provide a balanced metagame in which Pokémon are able to utilize almost any ability and move. But, part of having that balanced metagame involves generating offense. Otherwise, it would simply come down to pp stall wars as unbelievably defensive Pokémon undo any attempts at offense via whatever means: Fur Coat, Haze, Recover, Magic Guard, Poison Heal, etc. I signed up for the Gen 8 BH SSNL for a little fun endeavor since we all are quarantined due to the pandemic. I thought it would be nice to check out and see what the Gen 8 BH metagame is like and to play a couple rounds of matches. If I'm being quite honest, I was delighted to learn that Shell Smash hadn't been banned when I started looking at teams and building. When I heard today that it is being Suspected, it just reiterated my concern at the sluggish style of play I see so often in these battles.

Perhaps I am alone in feeling this way, and if so, that's okay. As I said to start this, I am relatively an outsider to the BH community/tier. But I wanted to share my thoughts here because I'm concerned about BH tilting too far away from offensive potential. No tier should allow itself to be slated significantly to a particular playstyle. The most balanced of tiers are those in which a variety of playstyles are viable. I hope to keep playing BH, and I hope that BH continues to improve and develop as I know it can.
 

GL Volkner

oh you're crewmate? name every task
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Hello, all!

Firstly, I just want to preface this post by saying I am a relative outsider to BH. So feel free to take this post with a grain of salt, particularly if you play and contribute to BH a lot more than I do.

That being said, I wanted to take some time to address the idea of Suspecting Shell Smash in Gen 8 BH. I have some concerns. Now, to reiterate my initial point, I have not played an enormous amount of Gen 8 BH, but what I've seen so far in the battles I've played and watched seems awfully devoid of offense. Every tier, even those touted to be the most balanced, has its offensive threats to contend with: ADV OU has Band Salamence for example; Gen 7 AG, GeoXern. And yes, to answer the obvious response to this, this is what suspecting is for. You're identifying a threat to the inherent competitiveness of a tier and having active contributors to a tier decide whether it should be banned or not. But my point is that it seems to me the offensive options in BH are being extinguished. First it was Neutralizing Gas, which was understandable at least in part because Ngas is such a metagame-altering ability that suddenly appeared and would, as can be seen at the start of Gen 8 BH last year, dominate the metagame. (In Gen 8 PH, the vast majority of Pokémon run Ngas, with the exception of an occasional or rare Magic Bounce, Comatose, or Wonder Guard user). Then came a Dynamaxing Suspect, and fortunately that's still a possibility. But where does this lead and how far might it extend? Shell Smash at least to me has seemed like an integral part of both PH and BH.

I understand that Balanced Hackmons is called Balanced Hackmons for a reason. The whole function of this tier as we all well know is to provide a balanced metagame in which Pokémon are able to utilize almost any ability and move. But, part of having that balanced metagame involves generating offense. Otherwise, it would simply come down to pp stall wars as unbelievably defensive Pokémon undo any attempts at offense via whatever means: Fur Coat, Haze, Recover, Magic Guard, Poison Heal, etc. I signed up for the Gen 8 BH SSNL for a little fun endeavor since we all are quarantined due to the pandemic. I thought it would be nice to check out and see what the Gen 8 BH metagame is like and to play a couple rounds of matches. If I'm being quite honest, I was delighted to learn that Shell Smash hadn't been banned when I started looking at teams and building. When I heard today that it is being Suspected, it just reiterated my concern at the sluggish style of play I see so often in these battles.

Perhaps I am alone in feeling this way, and if so, that's okay. As I said to start this, I am relatively an outsider to the BH community/tier. But I wanted to share my thoughts here because I'm concerned about BH tilting too far away from offensive potential. No tier should allow itself to be slated significantly to a particular playstyle. The most balanced of tiers are those in which a variety of playstyles are viable. I hope to keep playing BH, and I hope that BH continues to improve and develop as I know it can.
Suppose what you said is just correct. Suppose that banning Shell Smash does lead to a more sluggish pace in battles.

1) You haven't explained why that's bad. From what I can read, you're just describing something you don't like and that's it. And honestly, that's what it is - You don't like a more sluggish pace, so you're not banning it. Your argument that all tiers have integral offensive threats bears no meaning here - Mainly because BH functions very differently to other tiers, but also Shell Smash isn't the end all be all of most offensive threats.

2) If you do prove that a more sluggish pace of battles ends up becoming more problematic, what stops us from suspecting out problematic elements that reduce that? The entire goal of the tiering process is to create something as healthy as possible, even if somewhere along the way the meta becomes less healthy. That's entirely why we don't ban things that are being suspected on ladder anymore - You're meant to decide whether the element is unhealthy and vote based on that, not which meta you like better.

Keep in mind that this is coming from someone who, given the choice, would probably vote no ban as well. I'm on your side, but you're on this side for the wrong reasons. If these are your reasons you'd vote to not ban Shell Smash, then I'd honestly rather you voted ban for no reason. A lot of your argument is based on what you'd imagine the meta to look like and which meta you, personally, like better, but the fact is that none of those things are what you should be voting on. I urge you to play the metagame a bit and come to your own conclusion that way, not off a few seasonal matches and personal likes or dislikes.
 
Hello, all!

Firstly, I just want to preface this post by saying I am a relative outsider to BH. So feel free to take this post with a grain of salt, particularly if you play and contribute to BH a lot more than I do.

That being said, I wanted to take some time to address the idea of Suspecting Shell Smash in Gen 8 BH. I have some concerns. Now, to reiterate my initial point, I have not played an enormous amount of Gen 8 BH, but what I've seen so far in the battles I've played and watched seems awfully devoid of offense. Every tier, even those touted to be the most balanced, has its offensive threats to contend with: ADV OU has Band Salamence for example; Gen 7 AG, GeoXern. And yes, to answer the obvious response to this, this is what suspecting is for. You're identifying a threat to the inherent competitiveness of a tier and having active contributors to a tier decide whether it should be banned or not. But my point is that it seems to me the offensive options in BH are being extinguished. First it was Neutralizing Gas, which was understandable at least in part because Ngas is such a metagame-altering ability that suddenly appeared and would, as can be seen at the start of Gen 8 BH last year, dominate the metagame. (In Gen 8 PH, the vast majority of Pokémon run Ngas, with the exception of an occasional or rare Magic Bounce, Comatose, or Wonder Guard user). Then came a Dynamaxing Suspect, and fortunately that's still a possibility. But where does this lead and how far might it extend? Shell Smash at least to me has seemed like an integral part of both PH and BH.

I understand that Balanced Hackmons is called Balanced Hackmons for a reason. The whole function of this tier as we all well know is to provide a balanced metagame in which Pokémon are able to utilize almost any ability and move. But, part of having that balanced metagame involves generating offense. Otherwise, it would simply come down to pp stall wars as unbelievably defensive Pokémon undo any attempts at offense via whatever means: Fur Coat, Haze, Recover, Magic Guard, Poison Heal, etc. I signed up for the Gen 8 BH SSNL for a little fun endeavor since we all are quarantined due to the pandemic. I thought it would be nice to check out and see what the Gen 8 BH metagame is like and to play a couple rounds of matches. If I'm being quite honest, I was delighted to learn that Shell Smash hadn't been banned when I started looking at teams and building. When I heard today that it is being Suspected, it just reiterated my concern at the sluggish style of play I see so often in these battles.

Perhaps I am alone in feeling this way, and if so, that's okay. As I said to start this, I am relatively an outsider to the BH community/tier. But I wanted to share my thoughts here because I'm concerned about BH tilting too far away from offensive potential. No tier should allow itself to be slated significantly to a particular playstyle. The most balanced of tiers are those in which a variety of playstyles are viable. I hope to keep playing BH, and I hope that BH continues to improve and develop as I know it can.
I think one thing to consider, in order to alleviate some of your concern, is the fact that while Shell Smash is overall the best choice on average, that is simply due to its versatility.

Belly Drum, Shift Gear, Clangorous Soul, etc. might prove better in many situations, and that means that if Shell Smash is gone; we are not without offensive opportunities for set up.

I just think that it might be limiting to think of Shell Smash as the main offensive option, when we already have Intrepid Sword + Choice Band, as well as Quiver Dance, which all have their unique merits over Shell Smash.

So yes, Shell Smash is the most generic offensive boost, but if your voting is based on “if we lose it, what do we have left?” Rest assured there is plenty of opportunity to set up with many alternatives that may be just as viable if not more viable, depending on the Moveset (like Quiver Dance on PHeal users).

Lastly, your vote is your vote, don’t let anything stand in your way of voting as you see fit.

I am glad you expressed your concerns in an articulate way, and look forward to new players continuing to join BH, and learn about the ins, outs, and nuances of such a diversified metagame.

Welcome, and have fun!
 

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