BH Balanced Hackmons

[dimrah]

I would go for 2 shell smash users and maybe focus sash limit as well.Sash smash spam is braindead but a shell smash removal would limit a lot of punishing on switches/hazard setting or general support moves since as ppl mentioned most other boosting moves are much easier to deal with.Mixed sets like fwef mentioned still are hard to abuse cc resh for example thrives cuz there are so much more stuff to account for in the building as an anti meta set more so than an outright broken smash abuser.Also the ho being more apparent on ladder isnt so much it being the best playstyle (ive used a lot of ho teams myself,although i didnt invest much effort in building them,i got some 6-0 sweeps vc decent players but i didnt have much consistent success)rather than I its (sometimes)enjoyable/games go faster and
II balance is harder than ever to build,vs darm u play guessing games and an easy counter to interpind band 170bp is sash smashing

ps How court change works and with the meta rn in general there is a strong buff to focus sash spam which already was a problematic thing in gen7 imo

 

[Champion Leon]

A true Champion doesn’t just win, they champion those who need it most.

I would like to revive this thread from 6 days of inactivity - here goes:

I am in support of a Shell Smash clause, but not a ban.

I agree with 2 Pokemon per team carrying it, but I know they also had a 2 per team Ability Clause last generation (which the leaders/council said would not happen again, as 2 was an arbitrary number and they feel that no clause, 1 max, or just 0 (none), is best).

I feel like we should have 2 because there is no guarantee that a move, unlike a form, forme, or ability will happen. With a form, or ability that can be used automatically like a Zen Mode, or Fur Coat), while a move must be selected. This difference means that just because you use a Pokemon that has the move doesn’t mean you are going to use the move.

Since moves, unlike abilities, forms, items, etc. are not automatic, I feel like it would Okay to have 2 on a team as a limit, rather than just 1, because every team that has a form or ability can use those, usually automatically, while moves are separate for having to be chosen, and can be prevented with Taunt, or Encore, etc.

Let’s move to finalization on what a Shell Smash clause would look like: 1, 2, or none per team.

 

[Storm Eagle]

Or how about we wait for the Council to make a statement before jumping to conclusions about what we are going to do?

For the record I think a clause for Shell Smash is unnecessary and won't fix the problem at hand. You can still make incredible progress and be insanely threatening with 2 Shell Smash users. In fact I'd argue fwqef's team is the exception, not the norm. His team is a true HO team. I already mentioned that you can't simply build teams nearly as offensive as his in my previous post. Aside from people using his team from his RMT, next to no one actually builds teams with 3 or more Shell Smash abusers. I won't lie, they are still extremely difficult to deal with and I am not trying to downplay them at all, but most players do not build to extremes. Based on my experience, the most effective teams focus on eliminating counterplay to setup, which is exactly why fwqef's team works so well despite it having virtually zero defensive capability.

That doesn't even bring up the fact that this is also a complex ban. But when I support or oppose something, I try to see the benefits or downsides that would come with it. I see very little practical benefit (this basically only bans fwqef's team) to this while likely making the issue at hand worse. Say this clause were implemented. New players see this clause, they immediately gravitate towards Shell Smash sweepers, making usage skyrocket, which would in turn end up just getting the move banned entirely. At that point you come to wonder why you even bothered making the clause to begin with.

Say you made the clause 1 Shell Smash abuser per team. You can't spam Shell Smash any more. That doesn't detract from the fundamental issues of Shell Smash. You still get more power turn 1 compared to any of the other setup moves. Power Trip and Stored Power make mons unwallable. It's still possible to make lures that are nearly impossible to beat. It still enables mixed sets that are incredibly difficult for this meta to wall (fwqef's Reshiram with Close Combat is an excellent example). Defensive counterplay is already extremely limited. Meanwhile Smash offers a ton of offensive opportunity. There's hardly anything it doesn't enable. The meta is not well equipped to handle this like it was in Gen 7, and people were already complaining about it in Gen 7 to the point of where it was a prominent subject for a period of time

Ultimately, a Clause for Shell Smash is incredibly narrow in scope. I think it's a stupid solution. It's stupid because it dances around the issue in an attempt to keep Shell Smash partially legal when there's no good argument to do so and no good precedent to implement this clause. I do want Shell Smash banned. But I would rather it be done outright than with a complex ban. If there is one thing I absolutely do not want to see, it's the false notion of progress. I don't see a clause improving things significantly, if at all.

 

[Champion Leon]

Or how about we wait for the Council to make a statement before jumping to conclusions about what we are going to do?

For the record I think a clause for Shell Smash is unnecessary and won't fix the problem at hand. You can still make incredible progress and be insanely threatening with 2 Shell Smash users. In fact I'd argue fwqef's team is the exception, not the norm. His team is a true HO team. I already mentioned that you can't simply build teams nearly as offensive as his in my previous post. Aside from people using his team from his RMT, next to no one actually builds teams with 3 or more Shell Smash abusers. I won't lie, they are still extremely difficult to deal with and I am not trying to downplay them at all, but most players do not build to extremes. Based on my experience, the most effective teams focus on eliminating counterplay to setup, which is exactly why fwqef's team works so well despite it having virtually zero defensive capability.

That doesn't even bring up the fact that this is also a complex ban. But when I support or oppose something, I try to see the benefits or downsides that would come with it. I see very little practical benefit (this basically only bans fwqef's team) to this while likely making the issue at hand worse. Say this clause were implemented. New players see this clause, they immediately gravitate towards Shell Smash sweepers, making usage skyrocket, which would in turn end up just getting the move banned entirely. At that point you come to wonder why you even bothered making the clause to begin with.

Say you made the clause 1 Shell Smash abuser per team. You can't spam Shell Smash any more. That doesn't detract from the fundamental issues of Shell Smash. You still get more power turn 1 compared to any of the other setup moves. Power Trip and Stored Power make mons unwallable. It's still possible to make lures that are nearly impossible to beat. It still enables mixed sets that are incredibly difficult for this meta to wall (fwqef's Reshiram with Close Combat is an excellent example). Defensive counterplay is already extremely limited. Meanwhile Smash offers a ton of offensive opportunity. There's hardly anything it doesn't enable. The meta is not well equipped to handle this like it was in Gen 7, and people were already complaining about it in Gen 7 to the point of where it was a prominent subject for a period of time

Ultimately, a Clause for Shell Smash is incredibly narrow in scope. I think it's a stupid solution. It's stupid because it dances around the issue in an attempt to keep Shell Smash partially legal when there's no good argument to do so and no good precedent to implement this clause. I do want Shell Smash banned. But I would rather it be done outright than with a complex ban. If there is one thing I absolutely do not want to see, it's the false notion of progress. I don't see a clause improving things significantly, if at all.

WRONG

Hide

At the moment, the council is against a suspect on DGZ.

Some Reasoning

There is no doubt that it is a prominent threat in the metagame thanks to its great STAB combination and offensive stats, but it certainly has its checks and counters. Offensively, five fairly prominent Pokemon outspeed DGZ and threaten to OHKO it, cripple it, or at least force it out. Defensively, bulky Pokemon including but not limited to Melmetal, Zamazenta-C, Eternatus, and Seismitoad can run abilities like Flash Fire, Primordial Sea, and Fur Coat to stomach its attacks. DGZ also has pretty thin defenses along with a crippling weakness to Stealth Rock, both of which can limit its opportunities to be a wallbreaker.

Mold Breaker, Desolate Land, Intrepid Sword, and Magic Guard are all very good sets for DGZ, with each one giving it an edge over one check but leaving it checked by another. With the Forme Clause implemented, DGZ is limited to one slot, meaning one of these abilities and two coverage moves along with its STAB moves. Meanwhile, the checks I mentioned above, as well as others not mentioned, like certain Reshiram variants, are all very viable in the current metagame for checking not only DGZ but other physical threats like Zacian-C, Zamazenta, Zekrom, Zeraora, and Barraskewda. These defensive mons pair together nicely to form viable defensive cores that can check many prominent offensive threats. So while DGZ can change up its ability and moves to bypass certain mons, like Grass-type moves for Seismitoad or Mold Breaker for Flash Fire, it can't cover all its checks when limited to just one set.

DGZ using Dynamax is another thing. I've mainly seen it using Dynamax to bypass softer checks like Ferrothorn and Corviknight, who rely on abilities to check DGZ but take neutral damage from its Ice-type STAB. This is usually done by Dynamaxing after being denied a V-create and using Max Hailstorm or other Max Moves depending on coverage, like Lightning or Knuckle to muscle past these soft checks. Other than these instances, DGZ loses out on Choice Band/Scarf boosts by Dynamaxing.

That being said, we don't really see a clear direction to go for the next suspect. This isn't to say we think the meta is in a perfectly healthy place right now, though. Things like Bolt/Rend and V-create are certainly very strong, and I've discussed these in the past as well, but the rise of Eternatus sets like Fur Coat and Prankster haven't been kind to these moves. We welcome more discussion from you all, not only about what should or shouldn't be banned but stuff about the metagame in general. There are still plenty of things to try out and learn about this meta!

If you read the most recent post from a loser regarding potential bans (not including a more recent posts about how Copycat is niche) , he actually encouraged us to feel free and discuss what we feel will be the most important direction to take, as the council doesn't know what direction to go for the next suspect.

Dynamax remains unbanned!

Discuss any other potential suspect worthy attributes of the metagame here. We appreciate community input as always and want to ensure that we have the most stable metagame coming into the highly anticipated OMPL!
[/QUOTE]

If you read the most recent Funbot28 post, they also welcome any suspect topics we may have.
*********
To suggest I shouldn't post about Shell Smash clause because I am trying to not "wait" for council, is wrong, and saying so is not understanding my point. We are encouraged by council, not discouraged by council, to discuss suspects. At no point did they suggest to hold off and that we shouldn't discuss it anymore.

I was actually just continuing where the discussion left off, almost a week ago, which acknowledged a 2 Shell Smash per team limit:

I would go for 2 shell smash users and maybe focus sash limit as well.Sash smash spam is braindead but a shell smash removal would limit a lot of punishing on switches/hazard setting or general support moves since as ppl mentioned most other boosting moves are much easier to deal with.Mixed sets like fwef mentioned still are hard to abuse cc resh for example thrives cuz there are so much more stuff to account for in the building as an anti meta set more so than an outright broken smash abuser.Also the ho being more apparent on ladder isnt so much it being the best playstyle (ive used a lot of ho teams myself,although i didnt invest much effort in building them,i got some 6-0 sweeps vc decent players but i didnt have much consistent success)rather than I its (sometimes)enjoyable/games go faster and
II balance is harder than ever to build,vs darm u play guessing games and an easy counter to interpind band 170bp is sash smashing

ps How court change works and with the meta rn in general there is a strong buff to focus sash spam which already was a problematic thing in gen7 imo

So I was showing I agree.
_______________
P.S. I also was not jumping to conclusions, if anything I thought the thread was kinda dead and I wanted to resume the topics that were most recently discussed.

Please don't assume I was trying to rush the council to make any decision, if anything, I figured since the sheer number of people that liked to discuss a Shell Smash clause from DF-Shock to SuperSkylake to fwqef to you -it would make sense to consider what kind of clause would be preferred, so we can ultimately think (if we do want to have a suspect, how should we clause it, because that would impact whether people want it to go in that direction or not).

So I didn't rush council, if anything I discussed what we were already discussing. If anything, I was asking the other people who were discussing it to come to an idea of what their concerns about Shell Smash should be handled with: 2, 1, or complete ban?

From there, we would discuss to council if we want a 2, 1, or complete ban suspect. Council would be after / during, not before.

Since it would be strange to say "suspect Shell Smash" without knowing how we want to limit it.

Please speak for yourself, as I didn't even obligate the council; my only point was to highlight how it could justify a potential 2 Pokemon using Shell Smash limit, so we can consider different options, and that is just an idea.

Anyways, I don't see a problem with discussing a clause already discussed, I know you misinterpreted my post, but please don't assume I am trying to overstep.

#Forgiven

 

[cityscapes]

id be down for full smash ban tbh, you dont have to deal w weird clauses and even ignoring that, i think we stand to lose much more than we gain by allowing a more limited form of smash. it's both really powerful and really polarizing (either you consistently beat it or lose instantly) and because of the diversity of offensive threats that can effectively use it, there isnt really a "safe" prank that you can slap on your team to avoid losing to everything. it overall just promotes far too much inconsistency compared to the unique skills it rewards within the context of gen 8. i had a draft that went into more depth but skylake and storm eagle have already done a fine job of that.

a shell smash removal would limit a lot of punishing on switches/hazard setting or general support moves since as ppl mentioned most other boosting moves are much easier to deal with

this makes no sense to me. your argument is that keeping smash discourages doing anything other than hitting the other pokemon with your strongest move, and this is somehow a good thing? never mind the fact that hazards and switching are more punishable than ever thanks to court change and beak+rend. i dont really understand what youre trying to get at here

not gonna address leon's posts cause he didnt even talk about smash as an element, just the council and that weird "they might not use the move" argument

 

[Chessking345]

Putting my opinions here:
I am in favour of a Shell Smash Ban (preferably a quickban even though I know people hate quickbans but something like Shell Smash is going to be DNBed by a lot of ladder heroes that rely on Smash to cheese games).
There are a couple reasons why Shell Smash is problematic. Shell Smash was already a controversial topic last gen, and there have been several changes that benefit it this gen.

1. Imposter
Imposter being heavily nerfed and drastic drop in usage heavily favours Shell Smash as Scarf Imposter is a very strong check to nearly all Smashers with their Sash broken. Furthermore, the low usage rate limits scouting of sets, meaning one has a lot harder time in being able to predict whether a mon carries Smash or not.

2. Offensive diversity
There are a lot of mons that can successfully utilize Shell Smash, basically any mon with reasonable offensive power and typing is capable of being a huge threat after setup. Etern, GDZ, Zama(-C), Resh, Zek, Kyu, Lunala, Mewtwo, NDW, you name it. This huge diversity in potential Smashers limits the possibilities of good blanket checks against them, especially when all of them have strong wallbreaking sets too. It also leads to scenarios where a player is forced to sack a mon because an opposing mon just carries Shell Smash when it usually doesn't. As for why the player doesn't switch to their Prank right away...

3. Prankster
A rather indirect nerf. Prankster is IMO a lot worse than last gen, primarily due to the power spike. The strong wallbreakers relative to the walls mandates the use of FurScales to check or the use of Immunity abilities. Thus, Prankster mons are more often than not unable to check the wallbreaker sets (unlike last gen, where Prank ZygTina was able to blanket check a large amount of wallbreakers in addition to setup sweepers, example is the Giratina vs MMX matchup where Prank Tina can basically scout for free since both Band sets and Smash sets usually lose to Prank Tina, and the opponent would have to rely on gimmicks like Fridge/Pixi). This means that the defensive player must correctly guess whether a mon is a Smasher or a Breaker, otherwise he loses a mon. The natural power increase also means that Smashers have an easier time breaking past Pranksters through brute force, which means that most Pranksters actually have to have type advantage to check sweepers.

4. Hazards
Court Change is a huge boon for Shell Smash. Even though some have argued that Court Change is detrimental to offensive teams, Smashers on slower teams greatly appreciate the momentum gaining removal of hazards that could lead to a Defog which can be a free Smash. The buffed Rapid Spin along with basically 0 good ghosts also means that even if players play the long game they can no longer stall out single Defog using hazards. Without hazards to control sashes Smashers have more freedom to go rampant.

5. Speed control
This gen is very scarce in strong priority. The only speed control that is actually used is Zac-C, -ate Kyu-B and stray Sucker Punch users. There are basically no other -ates, no good Triage users, and no natural priority users. As a result Smashers can actually afford to forgo DQM to increase breaking power. Use of abilities like Mold Breaker also allow users to bluff standard sets.

Dynamax has pros and cons where Smashers can avoid revenge kill but defensive mons can also avoid being OHKOed and retaliate. Generally positive for Smash though as moves like Spectral, Glare, Wisp all lose their main effect.

Overall Smash is just very uncompetitive as its a fairly low risk high reward move that can be splashed onto anything and end up cheesing wins because your opponent's Prankster doesn't beat your Smasher or your opponent had to sack a mon because you Smashed and they didn't expect it etc.

 

[willdbeast]

What I think:

A clause seems kinda silly. I don't like the idea of random clauses for everything and I think one smash mon is almost as dumb as 2 or 3 if it's the right mon at the right time. In general I think clauses add unnecessary complication, especially when they are not commonly accepted clauses in different meta (I'm not saying this should stop us introducing something necessary - like with the comaphaze clause - but there is certainly a higher "cost" in confusion and inaccessibility to more wacky and wonderful clauses, where something like a species clause is widely known and understood so doesn't have this problem), and I really don't think smash is something worth "saving" with a clause if it's worth acting on in the first place.

I wouldn't be opposed to a smash suspect, it's always been dumb and works on literally anything with half decent stats (throwback to winning in OMWC with double simple smash zygarde-c). However I personally feel like the Borken Moves (BMs) are more borken. BMs are extremely powerful with very minor drawbacks, two of them have good PP and even if you don't go first they're 85 bp as well as having 100 accuracy while the other BM always has 180 bp with good accuracy and the stat drops are not too limiting if you net a kill with it or if its against slow defensive mons like Melmetal. BMs are the key element in a lot of borkenline sets like darmgz, random smash sets, weather etc and are extremely limiting to the meta: they force they use of quite specific defensive mons and punish running anything but the fastest or bulkiest offensive mons and are extremely spamable even by mons such as Zac-c or KyuB which have no natural STAB advantage with them.

 

[Champion Leon]

What I think:

A clause seems kinda silly. I don't like the idea of random clauses for everything and I think one smash mon is almost as dumb as 2 or 3 if it's the right mon at the right time. In general I think clauses add unnecessary complication, especially when they are not commonly accepted clauses in different meta (I'm not saying this should stop us introducing something necessary - like with the comaphaze clause - but there is certainly a higher "cost" in confusion and inaccessibility to more wacky and wonderful clauses, where something like a species clause is widely known and understood so doesn't have this problem), and I really don't think smash is something worth "saving" with a clause if it's worth acting on in the first place.

I wouldn't be opposed to a smash suspect, it's always been dumb and works on literally anything with half decent stats (throwback to winning in OMWC with double simple smash zygarde-c). However I personally feel like the Borken Moves (BMs) are more borken. BMs are extremely powerful with very minor drawbacks, two of them have good PP and even if you don't go first they're 85 bp as well as having 100 accuracy while the other BM always has 180 bp with good accuracy and the stat drops are not too limiting if you net a kill with it or if its against slow defensive mons like Melmetal. BMs are the key element in a lot of borkenline sets like darmgz, random smash sets, weather etc and are extremely limiting to the meta: they force they use of quite specific defensive mons and punish running anything but the fastest or bulkiest offensive mons and are extremely spamable even by mons such as Zac-c or KyuB which have no natural STAB advantage with them.

It wasn’t even my original idea

Well anyways, I don’t know if the 3 attacks are more of an issue, tbh, as you can literally become immune to to them, (even against Mold Breakers thanks to Weather), while Shell Smash can cause almost any attack to become OP, and causes Lunala/Dawn Wings to really skyrocket with Stored Power, while Power Trip puts Bisharp and Tyranitar on the map alongside even weaker attackers like Obstagoon which was previously obscure.

Plus, many players can just run Fur Coat on a Dragon (like Eternatus) since they are all physical moves, while Shell Smash can be Physical, Mixed, or Special.

Shell Smash makes > 85 base power attacks > VC, FR, and BB, as making any decent offensive Pokemon OP can override defenses easily.

The attacks alone don’t really help Special Attackers and can each be resisted by the Dragon-type, and fail to provide consistency due to their drawbacks, while Shell Smash... well - quite literally Smashes past typical checks.

Please, don’t @ me! ;)

 

[MAMP]

Hi everyone! As per discussion in this thread and on Discord, the BH Council has decided to hold a suspect test to decide whether or not to ban Shell Smash. We decided against any sort of clause on Shell Smash in favour of just a ban on the move itself. We feel that a clause would needlessly complicate the banlist and would not properly address the problem, as OMPL matches this week have demonstrated that even a single Shell Smash user can still be problematic.

The suspect thread can be found here.

 

[Iguana]

Hello, all!

Firstly, I just want to preface this post by saying I am a relative outsider to BH. So feel free to take this post with a grain of salt, particularly if you play and contribute to BH a lot more than I do.

That being said, I wanted to take some time to address the idea of Suspecting Shell Smash in Gen 8 BH. I have some concerns. Now, to reiterate my initial point, I have not played an enormous amount of Gen 8 BH, but what I've seen so far in the battles I've played and watched seems awfully devoid of offense. Every tier, even those touted to be the most balanced, has its offensive threats to contend with: ADV OU has Band Salamence for example; Gen 7 AG, GeoXern. And yes, to answer the obvious response to this, this is what suspecting is for. You're identifying a threat to the inherent competitiveness of a tier and having active contributors to a tier decide whether it should be banned or not. But my point is that it seems to me the offensive options in BH are being extinguished. First it was Neutralizing Gas, which was understandable at least in part because Ngas is such a metagame-altering ability that suddenly appeared and would, as can be seen at the start of Gen 8 BH last year, dominate the metagame. (In Gen 8 PH, the vast majority of Pokémon run Ngas, with the exception of an occasional or rare Magic Bounce, Comatose, or Wonder Guard user). Then came a Dynamaxing Suspect, and fortunately that's still a possibility. But where does this lead and how far might it extend? Shell Smash at least to me has seemed like an integral part of both PH and BH.

I understand that Balanced Hackmons is called Balanced Hackmons for a reason. The whole function of this tier as we all well know is to provide a balanced metagame in which Pokémon are able to utilize almost any ability and move. But, part of having that balanced metagame involves generating offense. Otherwise, it would simply come down to pp stall wars as unbelievably defensive Pokémon undo any attempts at offense via whatever means: Fur Coat, Haze, Recover, Magic Guard, Poison Heal, etc. I signed up for the Gen 8 BH SSNL for a little fun endeavor since we all are quarantined due to the pandemic. I thought it would be nice to check out and see what the Gen 8 BH metagame is like and to play a couple rounds of matches. If I'm being quite honest, I was delighted to learn that Shell Smash hadn't been banned when I started looking at teams and building. When I heard today that it is being Suspected, it just reiterated my concern at the sluggish style of play I see so often in these battles.

Perhaps I am alone in feeling this way, and if so, that's okay. As I said to start this, I am relatively an outsider to the BH community/tier. But I wanted to share my thoughts here because I'm concerned about BH tilting too far away from offensive potential. No tier should allow itself to be slated significantly to a particular playstyle. The most balanced of tiers are those in which a variety of playstyles are viable. I hope to keep playing BH, and I hope that BH continues to improve and develop as I know it can.

 

[Ren]

Hello, all!

Firstly, I just want to preface this post by saying I am a relative outsider to BH. So feel free to take this post with a grain of salt, particularly if you play and contribute to BH a lot more than I do.

That being said, I wanted to take some time to address the idea of Suspecting Shell Smash in Gen 8 BH. I have some concerns. Now, to reiterate my initial point, I have not played an enormous amount of Gen 8 BH, but what I've seen so far in the battles I've played and watched seems awfully devoid of offense. Every tier, even those touted to be the most balanced, has its offensive threats to contend with: ADV OU has Band Salamence for example; Gen 7 AG, GeoXern. And yes, to answer the obvious response to this, this is what suspecting is for. You're identifying a threat to the inherent competitiveness of a tier and having active contributors to a tier decide whether it should be banned or not. But my point is that it seems to me the offensive options in BH are being extinguished. First it was Neutralizing Gas, which was understandable at least in part because Ngas is such a metagame-altering ability that suddenly appeared and would, as can be seen at the start of Gen 8 BH last year, dominate the metagame. (In Gen 8 PH, the vast majority of Pokémon run Ngas, with the exception of an occasional or rare Magic Bounce, Comatose, or Wonder Guard user). Then came a Dynamaxing Suspect, and fortunately that's still a possibility. But where does this lead and how far might it extend? Shell Smash at least to me has seemed like an integral part of both PH and BH.

I understand that Balanced Hackmons is called Balanced Hackmons for a reason. The whole function of this tier as we all well know is to provide a balanced metagame in which Pokémon are able to utilize almost any ability and move. But, part of having that balanced metagame involves generating offense. Otherwise, it would simply come down to pp stall wars as unbelievably defensive Pokémon undo any attempts at offense via whatever means: Fur Coat, Haze, Recover, Magic Guard, Poison Heal, etc. I signed up for the Gen 8 BH SSNL for a little fun endeavor since we all are quarantined due to the pandemic. I thought it would be nice to check out and see what the Gen 8 BH metagame is like and to play a couple rounds of matches. If I'm being quite honest, I was delighted to learn that Shell Smash hadn't been banned when I started looking at teams and building. When I heard today that it is being Suspected, it just reiterated my concern at the sluggish style of play I see so often in these battles.

Perhaps I am alone in feeling this way, and if so, that's okay. As I said to start this, I am relatively an outsider to the BH community/tier. But I wanted to share my thoughts here because I'm concerned about BH tilting too far away from offensive potential. No tier should allow itself to be slated significantly to a particular playstyle. The most balanced of tiers are those in which a variety of playstyles are viable. I hope to keep playing BH, and I hope that BH continues to improve and develop as I know it can.

Suppose what you said is just correct. Suppose that banning Shell Smash does lead to a more sluggish pace in battles.

1) You haven't explained why that's bad. From what I can read, you're just describing something you don't like and that's it. And honestly, that's what it is - You don't like a more sluggish pace, so you're not banning it. Your argument that all tiers have integral offensive threats bears no meaning here - Mainly because BH functions very differently to other tiers, but also Shell Smash isn't the end all be all of most offensive threats.

2) If you do prove that a more sluggish pace of battles ends up becoming more problematic, what stops us from suspecting out problematic elements that reduce that? The entire goal of the tiering process is to create something as healthy as possible, even if somewhere along the way the meta becomes less healthy. That's entirely why we don't ban things that are being suspected on ladder anymore - You're meant to decide whether the element is unhealthy and vote based on that, not which meta you like better.

Keep in mind that this is coming from someone who, given the choice, would probably vote no ban as well. I'm on your side, but you're on this side for the wrong reasons. If these are your reasons you'd vote to not ban Shell Smash, then I'd honestly rather you voted ban for no reason. A lot of your argument is based on what you'd imagine the meta to look like and which meta you, personally, like better, but the fact is that none of those things are what you should be voting on. I urge you to play the metagame a bit and come to your own conclusion that way, not off a few seasonal matches and personal likes or dislikes.

 

[Champion Leon]

Hello, all!

Firstly, I just want to preface this post by saying I am a relative outsider to BH. So feel free to take this post with a grain of salt, particularly if you play and contribute to BH a lot more than I do.

That being said, I wanted to take some time to address the idea of Suspecting Shell Smash in Gen 8 BH. I have some concerns. Now, to reiterate my initial point, I have not played an enormous amount of Gen 8 BH, but what I've seen so far in the battles I've played and watched seems awfully devoid of offense. Every tier, even those touted to be the most balanced, has its offensive threats to contend with: ADV OU has Band Salamence for example; Gen 7 AG, GeoXern. And yes, to answer the obvious response to this, this is what suspecting is for. You're identifying a threat to the inherent competitiveness of a tier and having active contributors to a tier decide whether it should be banned or not. But my point is that it seems to me the offensive options in BH are being extinguished. First it was Neutralizing Gas, which was understandable at least in part because Ngas is such a metagame-altering ability that suddenly appeared and would, as can be seen at the start of Gen 8 BH last year, dominate the metagame. (In Gen 8 PH, the vast majority of Pokémon run Ngas, with the exception of an occasional or rare Magic Bounce, Comatose, or Wonder Guard user). Then came a Dynamaxing Suspect, and fortunately that's still a possibility. But where does this lead and how far might it extend? Shell Smash at least to me has seemed like an integral part of both PH and BH.

I understand that Balanced Hackmons is called Balanced Hackmons for a reason. The whole function of this tier as we all well know is to provide a balanced metagame in which Pokémon are able to utilize almost any ability and move. But, part of having that balanced metagame involves generating offense. Otherwise, it would simply come down to pp stall wars as unbelievably defensive Pokémon undo any attempts at offense via whatever means: Fur Coat, Haze, Recover, Magic Guard, Poison Heal, etc. I signed up for the Gen 8 BH SSNL for a little fun endeavor since we all are quarantined due to the pandemic. I thought it would be nice to check out and see what the Gen 8 BH metagame is like and to play a couple rounds of matches. If I'm being quite honest, I was delighted to learn that Shell Smash hadn't been banned when I started looking at teams and building. When I heard today that it is being Suspected, it just reiterated my concern at the sluggish style of play I see so often in these battles.

Perhaps I am alone in feeling this way, and if so, that's okay. As I said to start this, I am relatively an outsider to the BH community/tier. But I wanted to share my thoughts here because I'm concerned about BH tilting too far away from offensive potential. No tier should allow itself to be slated significantly to a particular playstyle. The most balanced of tiers are those in which a variety of playstyles are viable. I hope to keep playing BH, and I hope that BH continues to improve and develop as I know it can.

I think one thing to consider, in order to alleviate some of your concern, is the fact that while Shell Smash is overall the best choice on average, that is simply due to its versatility.

Belly Drum, Shift Gear, Clangorous Soul, etc. might prove better in many situations, and that means that if Shell Smash is gone; we are not without offensive opportunities for set up.

I just think that it might be limiting to think of Shell Smash as the main offensive option, when we already have Intrepid Sword + Choice Band, as well as Quiver Dance, which all have their unique merits over Shell Smash.

So yes, Shell Smash is the most generic offensive boost, but if your voting is based on “if we lose it, what do we have left?” Rest assured there is plenty of opportunity to set up with many alternatives that may be just as viable if not more viable, depending on the Moveset (like Quiver Dance on PHeal users).

Lastly, your vote is your vote, don’t let anything stand in your way of voting as you see fit.

I am glad you expressed your concerns in an articulate way, and look forward to new players continuing to join BH, and learn about the ins, outs, and nuances of such a diversified metagame.

Welcome, and have fun!

 

[abriel]

Abuse the fact that perish song is not banned with this annoyance

(Zamazenta-Crowned) @ Leftovers
Ability: Soundproof
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Perish Song
- Anchor Shot
- Protect
- Recover

Hey there, welcome to Smogon! Just as a point of information, one-liners like your post here are highly discouraged and will likely be deleted. Generally, you should try to provide some more commentary and replays related to sets you post here.

The set you listed has been done before and is usually pretty bad. First off, this set is incredibly passive and takes multiple turns of setup, giving your opponent free turns to set up or go into something that threatens Zamazenta before the trap is set. Pivoting moves are also extremely common in BH, which allows anything to escape the trap and switch into something that threatens Zamazenta. Additionally, since they are immune to trapping, this set is hopeless against Ghost-types.

Also, as a simple change, the variants of Protect (Spiky Shield, Baneful Bunker, King’s Shield, Obstruct, any others I missed) strictly outclass it, so you should use those instead.

I hope you’ll stick around and have fun with this format. Be sure to check out the resource thread for help on teambuilding, and feel free to ask anyone here for help if you need it.

 

[MAMP]

Hi all, hope everyone's doing all right. Here's some observations on the current state of the metagame — a lot has changed since I last did a post like this!

Weird to think that this guy used to be arguably the best Pokemon in the tier. As of this writing, it has only 5 uses in OMPL with a 0% winrate and its usage on ladder has similarly tanked. What changed for it? It's a bunch of little things: the mons that it used to wall like Zekrom and Zacian-C now commonly run sets that can take advantage of Melmetal or just beat it 1v1. Increased usage of Teleport and defensive Reshiram makes its Anchor Shot sets far less threatening offensively. Fur Coat Eternatus and Zamazenta-C do a lot of what Melmetal does better, eating into its metagame share. The increased popularity of Fur Coat Eternatus has pushed Pokemon like Barraskewda and Zeraora — which Melmetal used to abuse — out of the metagame. All together, Melmetal now doesn't actually provide much utility to teams, either defensively or offensively. It's quite a fall from grace.

Eternatus on the other hand is only getting better and more prominent as the generation wears on. Recently, its defensive sets, especially Prankster and Fur Coat, have really stood out. What makes Eternatus so good isn't just that it's really bulky and has a bunch of very useful resistances, it's also really obnoxious to get momentum against due to its speed and power. Most of the mons that are faster than it struggle to threaten it, and most of the stuff that does threaten it is slower than it and weak to Dynamax Cannon. Pokemon that can switch into Eternatus and actually force it out are hard to come by: I've been running a lot of Ice Scales Photon Geyser Darmanitan-Z, PH Snorlax and PH Mewtwo lately to fill this role. Eternatus' offensive sets haven't been doing quite so well however: the increased popularity of Pokemon like Snorlax and random Ice Scales guys like Zamazenta-C and Umbreon give sets like Sheer Force a really hard time. I think offensive Eternatus is still worth running, but I like to run stuff like Spikes or Taunt or Spore to give it a way to make headway against these Pokemon.

Reshiram has also really had a glow-up lately, and I now feel that its one of the best Pokemon in the metagame. Defensive sets like Fur Coat match up really well against the metagame while still being really hard to switch into, and it's just so versatile. I've found myself slapping a Reshiram onto all kinds of teams recently. Of course, offensive sets like Shell Smash and PH are still great as well, particularly now that a lot of teams are leaning hard on Ice Scales Zamazenta-C to handle special attackers. Specs sets aren't quite what they used to be now that not every team has a Melmetal to abuse, but they're still solid.

Snorlax capitalises on all of these trends. The PH set is a strong offensive check to most Reshiram and Eternatus sets, and the reduced usage of Melmetal leaves a lot of teams less prepared to switch into it. Strictly defensive Snorlax sets like Prankster, Ice Scales, and Teleport PH are ok, but I really love offensive PH. The specific set I've been using a lot lately runs Shift Gear, Facade, Earthquake, King's Shield. Lots of common Pranksters at the moment get heavily pressured by Facade's 32 PP, and with so many teams relying on Spectral Thief + Prankster to deal with PH setup they often will just have no way to stop Snorlax from getting 3 boosts and cleaning house. It's a nice lure for Ice Scales Zamazenta-C too: you boost on the switch, then live a Body Press and boost again, then Dynamax and kill them with +2 Max Quake. Really cool mon.

Zacian is still a pretty niche Pokemon, but it has found a real place for itself in the metagame with its Primordial Sea set. This set completely bricks Reshiram and usually counters DGZ while also being fast and strong enough (taking advantage of boosted Fishious Rends) to force switches and get kills late in the game.

I've come to the conclusion that a lot of these randy defensive Pokemon that seem good at first, because they have decent bulk and their typing matches up well against a few common offensive threats, are actually quite bad. They just mostly aren't threatening enough and don't do enough outside of the specific matchups they're intended for. Being forced to run Fur Coat/Ice Scales/an immunity ability to actually do what you want them to do defensively makes them so painfully predictable and inflexible and inevitably makes them prone to being worn down over the course of the game. The mons pictured here are just examples, I think this applies to a whole bunch of Pokemon.

A few cool sets I've been using lately:

oceanic operatta (Primarina) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Surf
- Volt Switch
- Trick

Surprisingly few teams right now are prepared to deal with very powerful special Fairy moves. Specs Primarina is really well-positioned at the moment, not only because it's really hard for a lot of teams to switch into, but also because it takes advantage of the increasingly common defensive Eternatus and Reshiram sets, which often can't do anything to stop Primarina from coming in and clicking the funny Boomburst button. It's also decent as a check for Kyurem-White and more offensive Reshiram sets. It definitely benefits a lot from the element of surprise — people keep doing things against it like leaving Golisopod in to U-turn or fishing for Lava Plume burns, and they just absolutely cop it from Boomburst. I've found Surf to actually be pretty situational, there's definitely an argument for replacing that move, maybe with something that does more to Melmetal. Here's a replay of Specs Primarina putting in work against dimrah in the BH Seasonal: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1112053339

Kommo-o @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Recover
- Filler
- Filler

The advantage of Kommo-o over other Fur Coat Dragons (Zekrom, Reshiram, Eternatus) is that it isn't weak to ground, resists rock and dark so it's harder to wear down and consistently checks Obstagoon, and has a strong STAB Body Press. Super niche Pokemon, but if you've built a team that needs a Zeraora improof, but you've already got 4 guys weak to ground and you struggle to threaten Umbreon, Kommo-o might be your guy.

Zekrom @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Dynamax Cannon
- Shell Smash
- Spore / Fusion Flare

I legitimately think this is the most broken Shell Smasher in the tier. Really easy to find opportunities to set up because it forces so much stuff out, super threatening even unboosted, lures in a lot of common Zekrom checks, hard to stop with Dynamax, really good at Dynamaxing itself, etc. So many teams just get cleanly 6-0'd by this once it boosts, it's pretty gross.

Something I've been thinking about lately: I've seen a lot of people make the point that tiering BH this gen is somewhat futile, that the reduced pool of Pokemon (particularly defensive Pokemon) makes it so that the tier is just always going to be unbalanced. To an extent I agree with this. In previous generations, BH has retained a semblance of balance by its incredible ability to self-regulate. Being able to run anything on everything means that we don't have to find counterplay to broken threats, we get to make counterplay. This means that the metagame can easily adapt to otherwise overbearing threats. In this generation, the pool of available Pokemon is so shrunken that this is no longer really the case. Stuff like DGZ, Bolt Beak, and even maybe Zac-C, Octolock, and Shell Smash would be so much easier to manage and work around if introduced into a metagame with a wider range of viable Pokemon. I'm really trying to innovate, and you certainly can innovate on the level of a single set, but I think at a higher level the range of viable team structures this generation is just really limited. Compared to last gen, where even at the end it felt like there was so much still to explore, this is pretty disappointing. Really looking forward to the DLC.

 

[Funbot28]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...hell-smash-banned.3663202/page-2#post-8465355

Shell Smash is banned from BH! Use this thread to discuss how the metagame will be impacted after arguably the best setup move has been removed! Will HO die? Will stall / fat balance (ie: 200+ turn battles) take over? Find out next time on the next episode of dragon ball z

 

[Storm Eagle]

I've been paying attention to a lot of different communities and discussions relating to BH, not just on the Smogon Forums or the OM Discord. I've seen a lot of people who aren't horribly invested into the metagame particularly nervous about Shell Smash being banned. I've been in discussions that were outright depressing given even small amounts of experience would prove these points wrong. I've seen people who are emboldened try to make bold claims like what funbot said here.

Will HO die? Will stall / fat balance (ie: 200+ turn battles) take over?

I've got to be honest here. I see this as a completely fucking ridiculous take. I'm not specifically replying to funbot as I'm aware she's probably being sarcastic or speaking theoretically, but I specifically mention it because I've seen it gain traction unironically in some communities. Perhaps I'm giving them too much attention, but I do try and respond to legitimate concerns that any BH player has, and given I lurk all parts of the ladder due to making alts frequently and watching lots of battles, I have a good grasp of low and mid ladder as well as high ladder BH.

I do not believe the meta will turn to a "stallfest" like some people claim. No one has any idea about what will happen to the meta. My predictions are that HO will disappear again (I should note, again, true HO is extremely rare and fwqef's team is the exception, not the norm) and balance teams will return to being predominant. Perhaps we'll see people spam other forms of setup in place of Shell Smash. I doubt it'll last too long though. Obstagoon is a shitmon without Shell Smash. Running Shift Gear or some other setup move will make it immediately become apparent to most players that you can't simply replace Shell Smash and expect the same sets to work as well. Eventually you'll see the meta return to "normal" (as in, what it was like before Shell Smash teams gained traction and overtook the ladder by force).

Something I've been thinking about lately: I've seen a lot of people make the point that tiering BH this gen is somewhat futile, that the reduced pool of Pokemon (particularly defensive Pokemon) makes it so that the tier is just always going to be unbalanced.

Stuff like DGZ, Bolt Beak, and even maybe Zac-C, Octolock, and Shell Smash would be so much easier to manage and work around if introduced into a metagame with a wider range of viable Pokemon. I'm really trying to innovate, and you certainly can innovate on the level of a single set, but I think at a higher level the range of viable team structures this generation is just really limited. Compared to last gen, where even at the end it felt like there was so much still to explore, this is pretty disappointing. Really looking forward to the DLC.

I do appreciate the effort that's been put into trying to make BH a better meta for everyone. I know that there has been a lot of various opinions about just about any action the Council takes or what is and isn't being suspected, but I acknowledge that there's been many particularly difficult decisions that had to be made. Frankly, given the situation we're in, I think we're all doing the best we can. I don't think you can expect the meta to be balanced when there's no more Mega Evolutions, a ton of legendaries got cut, and of the legendaries we've been handed few of them are actually bulky enough to be passable in this metagame. A ton of the legendaries we did get are strictly offensive, like Lunala or Mewtwo. Meanwhile we're flooded with tons of Steel-types right now to the point of where legitimately good Pokemon like Melmetal are losing the spotlight for reasons you mentioned. Gen 8 really just fucked up a lot of stuff which made Gen 7 relatively balanced in comparison.

I'm glad Shell Smash got banned. I genuinely respect the community taking a hardline stance against something that is blatantly broken for this metagame. It was genuinely making the meta the most unbalanced it had been in a very long time. While unrestricted Zacian-C was definitely more unbalanced, it didn't have the ripple effect on teams like Shell Smash did. It was only around for a few days, while Shell Smash consistently festered and worsened the condition of the meta for weeks. I've always been fairly neutral on Shell Smash in Gen 7, but I very staunchly supported Shell Smash being banned in Gen 8 because of the lasting negative effect it had on the meta. A ton of people were using fwqef's team, building around it, taking inspiration from it, to the point of where you couldn't go three games without finding someone who didn't abuse Shell Smash in some manner. Any sort of strategy went out the window in favor of HO spam.

Overall, I'm not too worried about the state of the meta. I think the meta will become a lot more balanced and healthier relative to what it was before the ban, at least until the DLC drops. But I don't see DLC 1 making much of an impact on the meta unless important Gen 7 mons return, of which I've only seen Chansey confirmed so far for the first DLC.

 

[DarkBeserker]

HO IS GONE!!!
okay but seriously this kinda did need to go, shell smash was getting stupidly annoying to fight. it will be interesting to see if stall is possible now as less threatens it in the long run with setup being practically dead.

but on the impact of HO from the ban... yeah its dead, by far now the worst playstyle and probably will remain so for a very long time.

​

 

[MAMP]

Another announcement: The BH Council has decided to unban Psychic Surge.

Psychic Surge was banned last generation for being too powerful on Pokemon such as the Mega Mewtwos and Deoxys-A, which used the ability to bolster their damage output and make themselves extremely difficult to revenge kill. However, a lot has changed for it in this generation. The most obvious is that the terrain itself has been nerfed, now providing only a 30% boost to Psychic-type moves rather than 50%. Terrains can now be removed far more easily, by Defog or through a Max move. The abusers of the ability in this generation are far weaker as well: Mewtwo is strong, but it can't really compare to its Mega forms, and priority moves are a much smaller part of the metagame than they were previously. For these reasons, we feel that Psychic Surge is safe to unban, and is unlikely to cause problems in the tier. However, we will be keeping a close eye on Psychic Surge, and if it turns out to still be too strong we will quickban it again.

Tagging The Immortal to implement this on PS.

 

[willdbeast]

willdbeast's Awfully Nice Kookie Set of the day:

Kyurem-White @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Trick
- Purify​

Calcs:
252+ SpA Sheer Force Kyurem-White Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 386-456 (93.2 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Kyurem-White Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 420-494 (86.7 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Kyurem-White Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Melmetal: 322-380 (67.9 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What this set does:
Random unexpected scarf mon can potentially OHKO quite a few faster threats. Once the surprise factor is gone or the speed control isn't needed, you can trick to cripple an opposing wall which opens the way for either this mon or another to do some damage. Purify to clown on PH mons after you trick them. I partnered this with PH resh. I used to run quiver dance over purify but it wasn't as funny or you could probably justify more coverage or like strength sap. Trick spam is something that seems under utilised rn since the only way to stop it is basically zamazenta and zac-c.

Why this set sucks:
You don't outspeed zac-c without running +speed but with +speed you don't kill anything. Maybe another ability or move choice would be more optimal.

Some replays where this set was moderately useful

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1111051027-p2sv83g4fgxqsozcy88wvj3hlvasvx5pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1110944706-m05g0j8siks9sg1joaillwdfq6dxjmhpw

Disclaimer I'm not going to post a set every day, this just happens to be the set of today.​

 

[Champion Leon]

Zacian @ Flame Orb
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock / Spikes / Rapid Spin
- Psycho Shift
- Facade
- Strength Sap / Recover

I have to say, I have been using this mon to great effect. Not only is it Imposter resistant, but it disarms and devastates even nuetral foes off of its massive STAB.

Thanks to its speed, it can immediately set up hazards, or clear them, while it’s ability to bypass Magic Bounce and Flash Fire to cause Burns is unrivaled, plus Psycho Shift doesn’t get blocked by Dark-types the way Thunderwave gets blocked by Ground-types.

Strength Sap is preferred because according to the research thread it heals the same amount regardless of the Burn Condition, and allows you to heal nearly 100% if Imposter comes in, while non-status Imposter‘s Facade is only a 4HKO before you lower their Attack. Still, Recover is a potentially safer option against Pokemon like Fur Coat Darmanitan-Zen who has low Attack and makes it increasingly harder to heal.

Overall, while Facade bypasses the Burn status, the great thing about Zacian is that it attracts a lot of Steel types, be it Melmetal, or Zamazenta-Crowned, all of which have high Attack, allowing you to Burn, then heal off their Attack stat thanks to Strength Sap, effectively preventing them from threatening you.

Typical attempts to weaken offensive power via Spectral Thief, Haze, etc. are useless here, and you can even threaten most Poison Healers because Poison Healers are weak or nuetral to Fairy, as Steel & Poison-types that resist Fairy are immune to Poison Heal, allowing you to go first, and block their status condition.

In dire situations, Facade boosts off of Paralysis, and Toxic as well, so even if you have been hit with Nuzzle, or Toxic (which you can usually just you use Psycho Shift to remove), your Facade’s 2HKOs are still in tact. Speaking of Nuke, here is the raw power of Facade:

Calcs

252 Atk Pixilate Zacian Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 372-438 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Pixilate Zacian Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta: 392-464 (101 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Pixilate Zacian Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 168-198 (43.2 - 51%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 Atk Pixilate Zacian Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Snorlax: 283-334 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Pixilate Zacian Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus: 225-265 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO

The real reason it works so well is that good Steel Attacks are all physical, basically letting you Burn them into neutral damage, while the only Poison Attack is Sludge Wave off of Eternatus who is outspeed and 2HKOed by Facade anyways.

This limits what can optimally switch in and benefit from facing off, as they normally take Stealth Rocks, Facade hits hard, and the potential to get Burned is real. Zacian, can also serve as a status absorber.

Overall, Zacian is a heavy hitting speedster, capable of repeatedly clearing or setting up hazards, spreading status, and stalling out most foes due to its excellent typing, and durability.
******
Here is an example of the constant pressure Zacian ememplified. In this game, I used Magic Bounce Melmetal to Improof Spikes, and Strength Sap, effectively denying the opponent any progress when Impost came in, and only allowing it to serve as a Strength Sap replenishment.

Throughout the match, I force the opponent to take passive damage, from hazards, to the Burn status. Their Magic Bouncer - Mandibuzz is swiftly 1HKOed by Facade, as would be Umbreon, if they used it. Ultimately, Zacian uses its constant chip damage to pressure out the foe, and uses Strength Sap to force out the opponent to generate more free turns:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1120670373
******

EDIT 2:

In this new replay, I outplay a Rain team, having pass down its Paralysis for good effect, and spreading Spikes damage throughout the match.

Zacian pulls its weight offensively as well, firing off Facade faster than their sweepers thanks its semi-unique speed tier, only shared with Zamazenta.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1121184026

******

Here is battle where I did not win, but Zacian served an amazingly powerful purpose.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1121274605

******
EDIT:

May 31st update vs 1600s opponent (123 turn match)

Here Zacian literally prevented an opponent from sweeping my team, thanks to powerful Facade + Spikes keeping them out:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1124677147

******

Here is the team I am using to strong success. MVPs are Zekrom, and Zacian.

https://pokepast.es/886a856ad65c7991

****
Please note that someone was actually inspired by my set on Zacian above!

So after they played me once, they played me again in this match. During it, they were kind enough to test in a turn where they couldn't do anything anyways - this test was to show Psycho Shift V.S. Magic Bounce, where it bypasses Magic Bounce completely.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1120853232

 

[boo836]

big brained set incoming

Lunala @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 176 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Photon Geyser
- Metal Burst
- Spectral Thief

Focus Sash and Magic Guard make an interesting combination when used on the same set. This enables Lunala to act as a sort of safety valve against powerful sweepers that would otherwise sweep a team. Lunala has remarkably high HP, allowing it to OHKO Imposter Wobbufett with Metal Burst so long as it isn't Dynamaxed. It also has STAB boosts on Spectral Thief and Photon Geyser, which also have unique synergy and enable Lunala to attack on both sides of the boosted spectrum depending on what Lunala is taking on. Fighting coverage keeps you from being walled by gimmicks like Umbreon. It's a very flexible concept that can be used by any Pokemon, but I think Lunala does it the best by far.

 

[boo836]

TLDR: This works against Ice Scales Umbreon.

I would make its SpA EVs 184, since that puts it 1 stat point below Attack, this can be useful if you get Burned, hit by King’s Shield, Strength Sap, etc.

What about Fur Coat Umbreon, (as they switch in expecting Secret Sword)? Since it resists it’s STAB, Fur Coat could be used just as well to handle Lunala as Ice Scales.

Nevetheless, Snorlax is a definite valid example of High-Jump Kick paying off due to its unequal Defenses.

252+ Atk Lunala High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Snorlax: 292-344 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Still, Mandibuzz is neutral to it as well, where it’s a 4-5HKO regardless of ability, and it could pack Foul Play to KO if Lunala isn’t at full HP.

Since they are all slower, Metal Burst doesn’t work since it’s using a 0 priority, but not a negative priority bracket like Mirror Coat / Counter.

My main question for you is, what does Physical Photon Geyser hit that Special Photon Geyser does not?

Zamazenta, Toxapex, Eternatus, etc. that would be hit super effectively by Photon Geyser all have equal defenses, so I am not sure why lowering the SpA makes sense since what you would hit super effectively would take more off of a higher SpA stat. If you are using Spectral Thief to boost, then let the boosts determine which offense, I.e. Quiver Dance Vs Shift Gear, but naturally lowering SpA doesn’t really bring any specific calculations to mind when determining why you lowered it.

I find Metal Burst very prediction reliant, and I am not sure the reason for not lowering your Speed? Since it doesn’t have a lower priority bracket, who is it trying to hit with Metal Burst that it would under speed? I get that it’s a one-time safety net against set up sweepers, but wouldn’t Imposter Scarf be more consistent?

P.S. I like your set, I faced it and it surprised my Ice Scales Umbreon. I am just wondering about some of the set’s choices, which I think would help others wondering the same thing.

My alternative

In a way, if going by Ghost-types that use Magic Guard and Focus Sash, wouldn’t it just make more sense to use Marshadow with Focus Sash, Magic Guard, and minimal Defenses, so that way it gets to use a Reversal, without fear of Rocky Helmet, status, etc. and pack a stronger Spectral Thief?

Marshadow @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely / Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Reversal
- Spectral Thief
- Bolt Strike / Fishous Rend
- Shift Gear

Non-Fur Coat:
252 Atk Marshadow Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 428-506 (108.6 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Marshadow Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 451-532 (108.9 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Marshadow Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Darmanitan-Zen: 412-486 (99.5 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Marshadow Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 316-374 (103.9 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Marshadow Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golisopod: 338-398 (95.4 - 112.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

This obviously somewhat of a niche idea, as if suffers from lack of -Defense and SpD that Shell Smash would have brought to the table, but if it can be pivoted into an offensive threat, it could use Focus Sash to trigger 1 HP as it sets up Shift Gear and, with its Speed, take advantage of its arsenal of moves.

Unlike Metal Burst, Reversal can be more than a 1 time Nuke, as its immunity to hazards allows it to come in safely from slow pivots, if you were previously forced out, enabling Reversal against slower foes (I.e. Umbreon, Snorlax, etc.) for the KO. In a pinch, Dynamax can boost Attack and provide a Fighting move if you haven’t been hurt enough to use Reversal.

Also, lack of priority this gen, barring Kyurem-B really puts Marshadow in a better scenario than Focus Sashers last generation.

Marshadow is another option for sure, but your set kind of misses the point in running fossil moves over Metal Burst, which is the central component of the set concept. Reversal or Endeavour are interesting attacking options on a Marshadow Burst set. Marshadow also lacks STAB on Photon Geyser and has less HP than Lunala. It also doesn't have much over Lunala beyond STAB Reversal and 12 more Attack. The Metal Burst and Focus Sash is supposed to Improof your team against anything but Dynamax Wobb. The speed on the Lunala set is mostly because I've also used it as a Baton Pass recipient. this way, you can Metal Burst stuff like the Kyurem formes while still getting the most out of boosts. It should be understood that Lunala isn't meant to necessarily act as a win condition, just that it has the flexibility to do so under some circumstances.

Metal Burst isn't that prediction reliant unless your opponent knows what you are running. If Imposter isn't an option, you can use Lunala as an answer to most sweepers without losing momentum on your opponent's Improof. Lunala's qualities like Ghost/Psychic typing and titanic HP make it an ideal choice and a flexible abuser of boosts it might incur.

 

[a loser]

Hey guys, since the klinks are like super eliminated from OMPL playoffs and I'm not doing BH this week, I figured I'd get a head start on the post-OMPL team dumps. I'd like to start by saying it was really fun to prepare for all of these matchups and to get to play against some great players in a big tournament setting. I'd also like to say I'm not sure how or why I ended up being the most expensive BH player in the draft, but thanks to Chloe for having faith in me. It was a bummer that I ended up 2-4 but I'm thankful that all the games I played were pretty solid and each one had a chance to go either way.

Week 1 - Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)
Hindsight makes me wish we hadn’t ended up doing a bo3 but I’m also glad I got to play a bunch of fun games.
Game 1

This first team stemmed from Ice Memory Mold Breaker DGZ. I thought the set sounded cool since it gives a stronger Ice STAB and has the freedom to switch moves and still get KOs on FF and FC guys. I thought about running Spikes but decided to go four attacks instead. No Guard Zeraora was chosen mainly to be annoying with Zap Cannon spam and Magnet boosted Bolt Beak. The rest of the moves were chosen to let Golurk serve as a hard improof to Zeraora and get a free chance to setup. Gourgeist is there as an improof to DGZ and back up improofs to Zeraora and Golurk if needed. FC Etern was fairly standard except I went with Spin, Sap, and max Speed. Zama-C filled the Prankster slot but had a strange moveset aimed to annoy things and die if needed. I’m glad Golurk and Zeraora got a chance to make a difference in this game because I would have felt pretty stupid if I brought these sets and lost.

Game 2

I built the second team around Intrepid Sword Zamazenta, but went with LO over Choice Band and chose Photon Geyser to nail FC Eternatus. I really liked this set but unfortunately the matchup with FC Zekrom and PH Goli were not kind to it. PH Lunala soft improofs the Zama and Ice Scales Snorlax improofs the Lunala. I went with King’s Shield on Lax to bait in physical breakers and get momentum with Teleport. It worked against Incineroar but that was about all that went well this game. I wanted a spinner that couldn’t be blocked so I tried a Pixilate Zacian set with Body Slam to maybe get some paras but the matchup really didn’t favor this set either. The FC Resh moveset is something that looks better on paper than in practice I think. The idea was to trap FF or PrimSea Steel-types and entrain/remove them, but trapping really isn’t that great in the meta now and I should have been Worry Seed instead probably. Prankster Etern was inspired by an old favorite of mine from last gen (Prank Amphy) but unfortunately Dynamax Cannon can’t be called by Copycat. I decided to keep the move anyway to call other things that might be useful. Overall I liked this team but the matchup was really unfavorable to it and it wasn’t able to accomplish much in the end.

Game 3

I only built two teams for our battles and it looks like sl42 did the same. I figured if we got to a g3 I would use something from my builder that I felt good about so I chose this team. It is an alteration of the third team I built this gen that started out with Shed and two Snorlaxes. I really wasn’t expecting sl42 to bring the same team again but this team matched up a lot better thankfully. But unfortunately I choked and threw away all my momentum when I forgot he had already Dynamaxed earlier. I really like the Marshadow set on this team though, as it can be really good against fat balance teams if it gets a chance to setup. Wish support only makes it tougher to deal with.

Week 2 - GL Volkner
First Draft
Final Team
Both of these teams are really similar and were inspired by the Adaptability Shell Smash Solgaleo set. The only difference is the second smasher and the improof for it, and in the end I thought that smash Reshiram would have more opportunities than Lunala. I went with Solgaleo after getting an idea from Tack in testing and thought it would be a cool mon to take out FC Etern and Toad. Reshiram went mixed as well to break past Ice Scales mons. I regret the moveset of my PrimSea Zacian deeply. At the time, it seemed like such an awkward and forced set to improof and I didn’t know how to build it without having it become imposter bait. Hindsight, I should have gone with Fishious Rend and Spirit Break at least and it would have helped a lot against Volkner’s Kyurem-W.

The matchup in this game wasn’t amazing for me since Volkner had pretty solid answers to my smashers, although my Zacian-C kept him on his toes. I should have been more aggressive with it and maybe things would have turned out differently.

Week 3 - highlighter
First Draft
Final Team
This first team is pretty rough and is an attempt at sun offense. Testing with this did not go that well so I decided to start over with building. Sun really got hurt by the Forme Clause, imo. The second team is a lot more balanced, with broken moves Zacian-C and Specs Kyu-W. I had recently heard about the interaction with Zama-C and the Rusted Shield and thought that was neat for a Trick immunity and used it to improof Kyu-W. I was really excited to use the Snorlax set as I thought it would be unexpected and be able to put in work. I was right, but due to some poor piloting and an untimely crit, Lax’s time ended early.

That crit and the three turn sleep on Eternatus were definitely unfortunate, but I’m still not sure if things would have turned out better for me without them. Kyu-B would have been chipped by Dynamax Cannon for sure but Eternatus would still have been KOed. Lax had a chance to do some damage if it had gotten past Kyu-B, but still would have had to deal with HL's Dynamax and probably would be forced out after his next mon got a smash up.

Week 4 - MAMP
First Draft
Final Team
I really had no clue what to build to play MAMP. This first draft team is pretty cheesy thanks to Simple Smash Eternatus but I liked the idea of the Mold Breaker Zama-C set and might try that out some more. The team surprisingly didn’t have a lot of ways to pressure opposing Eternatus after mine was gone and I scrapped it. I decided to pick a team from my builder that I felt really confident in instead and that turned out to be the perfect choice. I altered the team slightly from what I’ve used on the ladder, going with Haban Berry Eternatus to help it live a Dragon attack in a pinch and fire off a Dynamax Cannon in return. Gyarados is a really cool mon with Rend and Spikes to pressure defensive guys. I was just really fortunate to have a nice matchup as my two shield mons were able to play around MAMP’s choiced breakers. Also, I fixed it for this paste but I accidentally brought a Timid Snorlax with 0 Atk IVs since that slot was edited from a Prankster Eternatus set lol. Good thing I didn't really need Snorlax this game though.

Week 5 - PinkDragonTamer

This week I brought a couple of ideas that seemed cool to me, like mixed Adaptability Dragapult and Normalize Snorlax. I threw in PH Kyu-W because I thought it would be a neat stallbreaker with Freeze-Dry and Spore. The rest of the team filled in with a typical Coat/Scales core, but with some tweaks. I noticed that PDT had brought Necrozma Dawn Wings three out of four weeks so I put a Payapa Berry on Eternatus to help it stomach a Psychic attack. I also put Shift Gear on Zama-C to keep it from being too passive and help it potentially gain momentum on special breakers that it forces out. Last but not least, we have Choice Band Levitate Melmetal. I can’t really explain what he is here for but all I know is he put in some work and helped seal the victory after my lucky crit. I didn’t bring a Prankster this time because I wasn’t expecting setup spam and we had agreed to no smash since the ban had just been placed.

Week 6 - abriel gabram
First Draft
Final Team
I got the idea to try out Quiver Dance on FC Toad to be a little less passive against things like Zekrom, Reshiram, and DGZ and take advantage of its nice STABs. I tried it out on two different teams, one being triple PH and an interesting Quick Feet Dawn Wings. Dawn Wings is there to surprise outspeed things and be semi-bulky with Strength Sap, but it is unfortunately still walled by Dark-types. I didn’t like this build as much during testing so I put together another idea of Excadrill and webs. I liked the idea of webs since most of the breakers this gen heavily rely on speed and Excadrill is at the perfect speed tier to take advantage of webs. I really didn’t know what to expect from abriel since I have never or hardly ever played them and never really have seen them play. I kind of expected DGZ though and I think my build reflected that. I initially had Zacian as PrimSea but I realized that I was really weak to special threats so I decided to keep Zacian and try out Ice Scales to counter things like Reshiram and Kyu-W. Unfortunately, the matchup was pretty heavily in abriel’s favor as his Specs Dawn Wings pressured my team greatly and his boots Levitate Darm-Zen walled everything but Seismitoad. I was in between Taunt and Knock Off on Zacian and decided on Taunt, which I don’t regret, but getting rid of those boots would have helped me greatly.

I feel like despite the matchup, I had a chance in this game. I’m not sure what happened on turn one when we both switched out our Zacian-C, but I think he anticipated me going to Toad and chose Dawn Wings to get momentum on that. I really considered risking U-turn there but chickened out since Zacian-C looked like it would be too important to lose on turn one. I also should have suspected Levitate on Darm-Zen after he stayed in on Excadrill and U-turn showed it was clearly not Fur Coat. I could have really punished it with Scald from Toad the next turn instead of falling for Levitate. Unfortunately I was unable to get rid of that Darm after Toad died, even after using up all its recovery. It makes me really regret choosing Sap on Resh, but oh well.

Although I wish I had performed better in some of these games, I had a lot of fun this tour. All of these games got my heart racing in both an excited and nerve-racking way. I also enjoyed building and getting a chance to test out my ideas against some great opponents. Some of these teams aren't allowed anymore since the smash ban, and some might be better for tours than they are for laddering, but feel free to try them out or try out any sets you might like. And good luck to the OMPL players who still have a shot at the crown!

 

[a loser]

Time for a double post. So the first DLC is coming out on the 17th, and while this won't be as big as the second installment, there are still some things to look forward and potential changes to the metagame.

Undeniably the biggest and most influential addition will be Chansey (and Blissey, since Forme Clause allows both). Chansey will replace Wobbuffet as the go-to Imposter user thanks to its massive HP and Eviolite boosts. Chansey will be a very effective scouter and a pretty great tool overall and will make Imposter-proofing even more vital on teams. So far this gen, Imposter Wobb has been a useful tool against offense thanks to Choice Scarf variants avoiding speed ties, but its lesser bulk and ability to be played around due to choice locks meant Imposter was somewhat less of a threat to teams with shaky improofing. I think Chansey will also see some use as a Fur Coat (and maybe Ice Scales) sponge, but that it won't be as effective as it was last gen due to massive threats like Zacian-C, Zamazenta, and DGZ all being able to 2HKO it. Blissey, on the other hand, will be the main Choice Scarf, Shed Shell, and Memory Imposter user and will definitely have an impact on the meta thanks to its massive bulk compared to Wobbuffet.

Dynamaxed Imposter Chansey deserves a mention as well. Unlike Choice items, its Eviolite boost will still be intact while maxed and this means it will be incredibly bulky for at least three turns. With proper improofing, I can't see this being too much of an issue or much different from Dynamax play we are used to, but dang 1408 HP is a lot lol.

Imposter Calcs, a comparison

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Zen V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 582-685 (82.6 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Zen V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Wobbuffet: 870-1024 (148.9 - 175.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Not knowing its stats makes it tough to anticipate its impact, but I'm banking on Urshifu having at least 600 BST. Fighting/Dark and Fighting/Water aren't amazing type combinations but they are fairly unique, especially among legends and mythicals. Also, G-Max One Blow and G-Max Rapid Flow breaking through Max Guard is a pretty neat tech that could mean we finally have a solid Gigantamax mon.

We don't know Zarude's stats yet either so the jury is still out on whether or not this mon will be useful or garbage. The Dark/Grass typing isn't great defensively but this guy will be thankful that Teleport is a little more popular than U-turn for now, at least. Zarude looks like it could potentially be a decent Beak/Rend absorber but that hinges on whatever bulk it gets.

Galarian Slowbro's Poison/Psychic typing is... interesting. It is neat that we finally get this combination but I can't see this putting in too much work aside from being a super anti-Zamazenta pick with its 4x resistance to Fighting. Its ability, Quick Draw, is unknown for sure but sounds like it could be an interesting choice for RNG priority attacks to meme somebody. The most notable thing this mon brings to the table though, is Shell Side Arm to give Eternatus another toy to play with. Its mechanic also makes me wonder if Slowbro's base stats will be altered at all, because 75/100 attacking stats doesn't really scream mixed attacker to me.

Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request) and willdbeast your (un)mons are back, so be joyful. These bad boys are a couple mons that I think could end up getting some usage in BH. Are they really good? No. They'll likely end up in D Rank at best if at all, but they have some potential on paper. Magnezone has a rare 4x resistance to Steel-type attacks but has to choose between dying to V-create, Earthquake, or strong neutral attacks. Tangrowth has some nice physical bulk and an interesting pure Grass typing, but will face competition with Gourgeist at filling this niche. I mainly mention Krook so I could tag will but Krook does get the coveted Ground typing and some nice immunities, so I could see it potentially filling a small niche or improofing certain sets. I'll let SL42 talk about Volcarona if he wants, but I must say it could serve as an interesting Ice Scales mon with Heavy-Duty Boots that could rain on Kyu-W's parade a little bit. I didn't want to mention Scizor really, since it is technically outclassed by Escavalier who just dropped out of the VR, and now that I'm typing this I don't really see any good reason to use this mon at all so please forget I mentioned it.
. . . . . . . .

On another note, our Sample Teams are surprisingly all still intact after a couple metagame changes but they are certainly growing old and a little dated. We're going to be looking for newer teams once the DLC is released, so we encourage everyone to put on their building hats and see what works in the new meta. In the meantime (which is 12 days), if you have any interest in submitting a sample team that won't have to be significantly altered post-DLC drop, please feel free to share it for the council to review.

 

[Iynhe]

So we all have 12 days before Chansey comes and ruins BH once again. Good to know. Why did GF create this horrible blob? It's unfun at 101 level.
Those mons might be bad, but they bring something new and needed/interesting to the table. But everything depends from the other mons. Will they cover a useful niche or will they just be abandoned because we will have those 10 mons to choose from?