BH Balanced Hackmons

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Hello, the BH council continues to observe the metagame and wishes to address concerns about potential metagame suspectworthy threats as swiftly and efficiently as possible. With this being said, one important topic that has been brought up numerous times quite recently in the thread has been the idea of a species clause. With the prospect of extremely devistating wallbreakers such as Zacian-C, Zekrom, and Kyurem-W being ran multiple times on certain teams, defensive counterplay can be inadequate at times as the stacking of congruent offensive threats can overwhelm their respective checks. This also applies to defensive threats as well, where more and more teams have been starting to stack extremely bulky threats such as Eternatus and Zamazenta-C, creating impenetrable defensive backbones that can be hard to stop without dedicated wallbreakers. With this in mind, the "spamming" of certain threats has been quite overcentralizing and has had a largely negative impact on the metagame, which the council does recognize.

To this effect, we will be implementing a Forme Clause.
  • Forme Clause: You may only use one of each forme of a mon on your team.

This addresses the issue at hand while also still enabling players to use certain threats such as Zamazenta and Zamazenta-C alongside eachother.

Expect more tiering announcements very very very soon. Again, we welcome any sort of metagame discusssion / criticism but please keep in mind that personal insults or ad hominems don't help further the progression of the metagame in any regard.

Tagging Kris
 
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What exactly is a forme? This has been discussed in prior-gens (specifically Ubers regarding species clause). Is it exclusively a stat or typing change? What about a movepool change (Genesect Drives)? What about Aesthetic formes like Gastrodon East/West? or Vivillion. I realize this isn't the most relevant thing in the world but I remember this still being up in the air and the word "forme" doesn't actually clear it up.
 
What exactly is a forme? This has been discussed in prior-gens (specifically Ubers regarding species clause). Is it exclusively a stat or typing change? What about a movepool change (Genesect Drives)? What about Aesthetic formes like Gastrodon East/West? or Vivillion. I realize this isn't the most relevant thing in the world but I remember this still being up in the air and the word "forme" doesn't actually clear it up.
its just species clause. but if it has a different form, (look at Darm / Darm-zen) one of each can be allowed i believe.
 
its just species clause. but if it has a different form, (look at Darm / Darm-zen) one of each can be allowed i believe.
This doesn't really answer my question of what constitutes a form for the purposes of the clause. Genesect Drive forms have different sprites, require different items and have identical movepools but their Techno Blast changes type. Are those forms? Can I run six different styled Furfrous or Vivillions which are just aesthetic? (if yes, we need to further define what a form is).
 

pazza

I COULD BE BANNED!
This doesn't really answer my question of what constitutes a form for the purposes of the clause. Genesect Drive forms have different sprites, require different items and have identical movepools but their Techno Blast changes type. Are those forms? Can I run six different styled Furfrous or Vivillions?
"Prevents teams from having more than one Pokémon of the same forme:"

lets say you can run mmy and mmx but not 2 mmx or 2 mmy, if they were allowed in bh
 
This doesn't really answer my question of what constitutes a form for the purposes of the clause. Genesect Drive forms have different sprites, require different items and have identical movepools but their Techno Blast changes type. Are those forms? Can I run six different styled Furfrous or Vivillions?
well then, i don't think you can run things that have only visual changes, but genesect drives might work
 
See this post for a good description of the Forme Clause.
The Immortal said:
Aesthetic changes, such as Gastrodon or Unown, are called forms. We define formes as Pokémon with more than just aesthetic differences - as Pokémon with stats or type changes. With that said, a GhostCeus that looks like a FightCeus is still a GhostCeus. Under Forme Clause, you should not be able to run two GhostCeus even if they look different. As for Magearna, it is purely aesthetic.
Formes most relevant to Balanced Hackmons are shown below. The Forme Clause allows you to use one of each on the same team.
:darmanitan-zen-galar: :darmanitan-zen:
:zacian: :zacian-crowned:
:zamazenta: :zamazenta-crowned:
:kyurem-black: :kyurem-white:
:necrozma-dawn-wings: :necrozma-dusk-mane:
 
1584981063545.png

Here's a reminder that the Dynamax suspect test is still on-going and will remain open until this Friday, March 27th.

There is still plenty of time to get the voting requirements, and I'd like to encourage anyone who is still interested in participating to go ahead and do so. It'll probably take about two days of laddering to get them unless you feel like devoting one day to knock it out.

Good luck to anyone actively trying to get reqs and anyone who tries to get them last minute. Happy laddering!
 
Alright, first up. Even tho Dynamaxing gets rid of the choice lock, it also gets rid of the effect, for example I have scarf kyurem and band cinderace, the kyurem will always outspeed right? then, they both decide to dynamax turn 23. The cinderace now suddenly outspeeds the kyurem, but does less damage. It's basically like having your item knocked off, so I don't see the OP thing there, plus the fact you are locked into the previous move again after 3 turns have passed

Second, you can only use it once per battle, like Z-moves. and Max moves aren't always stronger. For example focus miss will be 90 bp move after dynamax, while it usually is 120 bp

You can only use it 3 turns, and ur opponent gets it too, so I don't see the OP thing here. I mean, extreme evoboost isnt disabled by taunt if you use it the same turn, so dbond immunity isnt that big either
 

GL Volkner

[12:15:34] @Thinkerino: You're an animal
is a Tiering Contributor
HOLY SHIT GUYS GMU CAME BACK TO US

Darmanitan-Galar-Zen @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Copycat
- Encore
- Destiny Bond
p neat disruptor, i havent tried it standalone and it'd be less effective in a species clause meta, but v-create's stat drops + darm's frailty means it can get off a dbond rly easily and if that doesnt work, it can just spam v-creates. it's a p cool set i'll prob try it on a new team soonish
 
Alright, first up. Even tho Dynamaxing gets rid of the choice lock, it also gets rid of the effect, for example I have scarf kyurem and band cinderace, the kyurem will always outspeed right? then, they both decide to dynamax turn 23. The cinderace now suddenly outspeeds the kyurem, but does less damage. It's basically like having your item knocked off, so I don't see the OP thing there, plus the fact you are locked into the previous move again after 3 turns have passed

Second, you can only use it once per battle, like Z-moves. and Max moves aren't always stronger. For example focus miss will be 90 bp move after dynamax, while it usually is 120 bp

You can only use it 3 turns, and ur opponent gets it too, so I don't see the OP thing here. I mean, extreme evoboost isnt disabled by taunt if you use it the same turn, so dbond immunity isnt that big either
  1. Temporarily disabling a choice item at will is much better than being knocked off. It means that your opponent has to be wary of your choice-locked mon even if it's locked into an unfavorable move.
  2. Max moves may not have the raw power of Z-moves, but you get up to three of them in a match instead of one, and their secondary effects can potentially be incredibly powerful, particularly setting up rain, sun, or an offensive terrain, or directly boosting power or speed. Crucially, these effects persist even after the Dynamax wears off, so even after the three-turn assault is over, you're still staring down a boosted threat who may or may not have just reactivated its choice boost. Oh, and keep in mind that your team is likely not in the best condition after enduring three turns of max moves.
  3. In addition to its snowball capability, Dynamax also gives its user a huge HP boost, allowing otherwise frailer offensive Pokemon to tank big hits and retaliate with max moves. This plays right back into the snowballing, because the extra bulk means the Dynamax train is even harder to stop.
  4. Dynamax isn't restricted by items like Z-moves were, so you can Dynamax whoever you want, whenever you want. No teambuilding trade off to balance it out.
  5. Extreme Evoboost was exclusive to Eevee, who no one is going to use. The only time anything else used it was in the early days of Gen 7 BH, before Z-moves were banned from being directly placed in moveslots.
Most of these points are applicable to Dynamax in general and not tailored to Balanced Hackmons specifically, but then again, the same applies to your post. If you want a more comprehensive explanation that I basically just regurgitated points from, I recommend checking out this post explaining why Dynamax was banned from OU.
 
HOLY SHIT GUYS GMU CAME BACK TO US

Darmanitan-Galar-Zen @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Copycat
- Encore
- Destiny Bond
p neat disruptor, i havent tried it standalone and it'd be less effective in a species clause meta, but v-create's stat drops + darm's frailty means it can get off a dbond rly easily and if that doesnt work, it can just spam v-creates. it's a p cool set i'll prob try it on a new team soonish
This reminds me of what I posted last gen with Alolan Marowak! So happy for you to have fun!

One thing I think would be cool would be to give it Focus Sash, so it can always survive the first V-Create, and then to provide it an option to hit Dark-types like Tyranitar and Umbreon, with Close Combat, which pairs nicely with the theme of V-Create lowering its Defenses, while also covering Flash Fire and Promordial Sea Steels.

After 2 V-Creates Tyranitar is faster, but if it comes in before that, or if you still have Focus Sash, you can threaten it with Close Combat and wallop it, since Dark-types block Prankster.

Encore is still good, but maybe as a slash!
 
Please suspect Darm-Galar-Zen... (And sorry for my poor English)

It doesn't have an ultimate check. Desolate Land band could Zamazenta / Ferroseed Psea are 2HKO by Close Combat and Seismitoad Fur Coat dies on Power Whip / Wood Hammer. Mold Breaker Band bypass all Fur Coat (Eternatus / Seismitoad) and Flash Fire (Zamazenta). Scarf lure version could lead and beat "faster" pokemon like Zeraora or Zacian-C. I have seen sometimes a Magic Guard version, who switch some power against a hazard invulnerability and no-lock move, and it could do a Shell Smash if the opponent switch on a check and kill it with a coverage move.
Also some weird sets (didn't work a lot but we must to talk a little about it), like Refrigerate or Prankster Copycat could exists, even if for me, this sets don't cause me troubles.

Even if Forme clause nerf it, you must often bring 2 soft check against Band Darm-GZ if you don't want be beaten by one of his coverage set. Also, it is the most dangerous pokemon with a Dynamax and I think the trouble was not Dynamax but Darm-GZ. You must run a solid physical defensive core to handle it or pray for the opponent Darm doesn't run the coverage that threatens you. Run "Protect move" could be usefull to check the locked move
but it will still threaten pokemons who will not play this kind of move.

I think Darm-GZ is too powerful, restricted too much the teambuilding to handle it efficiently, and deserves a suspect, and probably a ban.
 
I totally agree with DF Shock here. VFB as a whole are annoying to deal with but Darm-GZ brings it to 11. Remember, unlike Rend and Beak, V-Create retains full power no matter what, which means that Pranksters are still taking a 180 BP STAB to the face coming off 160 Attack. That's higher power than the strongest Bolt Beak or Fisheous Rend users. Also, I agree that playing against Darm-GZ is pretty much hoping you have the correct checks to the set they're bringing, and that you can outplay the darm once it dynamaxes.

All of its offensive sets are hard to deal with in different ways, and having played with and against it, I have to say that you really can't go wrong with it. If you can't afford tough entry hazard control, you can run LO Magic Guard and retain a fair amount of power anyway. During the long game, the LO Magic Guard set is far more dangerous than the choice sets, with the only real annoyance being V-Create's 8 PP. it's impossible to wear down. Some teams even run wish support to offset chip damage from things like Knock Off or U-Turn.

TLDR: Suspect Darm-GZ please!
 
The Experience:


The set:

Selfish

Selfish (Darmanitan-Galar-Z) @ Ice Memory
Ability: Tough Claws / Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-Create
- Multi Attack
- Bolt Beak
- Close Combat

Darmanitan-Galar-Z gets to keep its Ice move all to itself!

Prevent Imposter from handling your newly useful checks in Fur Coat Eternatus / Zekrom as well as Dragapult, while handling them yourself.

Tough Claws (Anti-Haze, Spectral Thief, Topsy-Turvey, Unaware, etc.)

Checking Imposter:

252 Atk Tough Claws IMPOSTER V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zekrom: 71-84 (17.5 - 20.7%) -- possible 5HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws IMPOSTER V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Eternatus: 91-108 (18.8 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO

The benefits?

Ice Memory

252 Atk Tough Claws Darmanitan-Galar-Z Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Eternatus: 242-288 (50 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Darmanitan-Galar-Z Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zekrom: 188-224 (46.5 - 55.4%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Darmanitan-Galar-Z Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 254-300 (61.3 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Darmanitan-Galar-Z Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dragapult: 564-666 (148.4 - 175.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(Normalize will not stop it!)

252 Atk Tough Claws Darmanitan-Galar-Z Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 258-304 (62.3 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, Grassy Terrain recovery, and Poison Heal
(I am showing even after a Stall turn of Spiky Shield, etc. it won’t save it).

——————

Of course, Volt Absorb Toxapex, Fur Coat Darmanitan-Z, Flash Fire Doublade, and Fur Coat Seismitoad can wall you, but that’s without the right coverage moves.

The point is, you can basically increase your STAB Ice Move by almost 50%, while preventing your foe from receiving the same coverage to KO your Improofs. Tough Claws still lets Close Combat still 2HKO +Def Flash Fire Melmetal, and get most of the KOs it could with Choice Band or Intrepid Sword, as for its Ice Move the 180 STAB base power + Tough Claws is basically Intrepid Sword + Life Orb.
——————

Speaking of Intrepid Sword:

+2 252 Atk IMPOSTER V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zekrom: 109-129 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

+2 252 Atk IMPOSTER V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Eternatus: 140-165 (28.9 - 34%) -- 2.4% chance to 3HKO (meaning a 97.6% 4HKO)

+2 252 Atk IMPOSTER Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Reshiram: 110-130 (27.2 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

You can still wall it without Leftovers / Black Sludge, and can threaten it back due to strong Offense.

This is all while handling theirs:

+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar-Z Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zekrom: 218-260 (53.9 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Bear in mind, it being faster than Zekrom, immune to W-o-W, and only vulnerable to Knock Off, makes it extremely difficult to switch into.

People complained about the drawback of Intrepid Sword being how difficult it was to Imposterproof. Not anymore, any of the aforementioned checks, or the Fur Coat Dragons should suffice, thanks to a weakened Imposter.

Darmanitan-Galar-Z isn’t very nice to play against... its #Selfish
 
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At the moment, the council is against a suspect on DGZ.
There is no doubt that it is a prominent threat in the metagame thanks to its great STAB combination and offensive stats, but it certainly has its checks and counters. Offensively, five fairly prominent Pokemon outspeed DGZ and threaten to OHKO it, cripple it, or at least force it out. Defensively, bulky Pokemon including but not limited to Melmetal, Zamazenta-C, Eternatus, and Seismitoad can run abilities like Flash Fire, Primordial Sea, and Fur Coat to stomach its attacks. DGZ also has pretty thin defenses along with a crippling weakness to Stealth Rock, both of which can limit its opportunities to be a wallbreaker.

Mold Breaker, Desolate Land, Intrepid Sword, and Magic Guard are all very good sets for DGZ, with each one giving it an edge over one check but leaving it checked by another. With the Forme Clause implemented, DGZ is limited to one slot, meaning one of these abilities and two coverage moves along with its STAB moves. Meanwhile, the checks I mentioned above, as well as others not mentioned, like certain Reshiram variants, are all very viable in the current metagame for checking not only DGZ but other physical threats like Zacian-C, Zamazenta, Zekrom, Zeraora, and Barraskewda. These defensive mons pair together nicely to form viable defensive cores that can check many prominent offensive threats. So while DGZ can change up its ability and moves to bypass certain mons, like Grass-type moves for Seismitoad or Mold Breaker for Flash Fire, it can't cover all its checks when limited to just one set.

DGZ using Dynamax is another thing. I've mainly seen it using Dynamax to bypass softer checks like Ferrothorn and Corviknight, who rely on abilities to check DGZ but take neutral damage from its Ice-type STAB. This is usually done by Dynamaxing after being denied a V-create and using Max Hailstorm or other Max Moves depending on coverage, like Lightning or Knuckle to muscle past these soft checks. Other than these instances, DGZ loses out on Choice Band/Scarf boosts by Dynamaxing.
That being said, we don't really see a clear direction to go for the next suspect. This isn't to say we think the meta is in a perfectly healthy place right now, though. Things like Bolt/Rend and V-create are certainly very strong, and I've discussed these in the past as well, but the rise of Eternatus sets like Fur Coat and Prankster haven't been kind to these moves. We welcome more discussion from you all, not only about what should or shouldn't be banned but stuff about the metagame in general. There are still plenty of things to try out and learn about this meta!
 
Darmanitan-Galar-Zen is certainly one of the stronger wallbreakers/sweepers in BH, mostly due to it's ridiculously high base speed and wonderful STAB V-create. However, I'm not really of the opinion that it deserves an outright ban; but I think there are a lot of creative sets here and there that can actually consistently beat DGZ. , with the nature of Balanced Hackmons saying that there's absolutely nothing that can reliable check Darmanitan-Galar is pretty false. For starters, it should be common knowledge now that a lot of water pokemon can actually deal with Darmanitan-galar pretty effectively, as they resist both of it's most infamous STAB moves (coughs in V-create) and, if the typing is good enough, might be impossible for darm-galar to kill. For example:

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Seismitoad in Sun: 275-324 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And then Seismitoad responds with:

52 Atk Seismitoad Earthquake vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 446-528 (107.7 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Alternatively:

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-ZenPower Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rindo Berry Fur Coat Seismitoad: 328-386 (79.2 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Seismitoad can then use earthquake and potentially finish it off with a priority move, like espeed/accelrock.

I don't think our fiery, icy gorilla's quite so deserving of a suspect. At least, not to my current knowledge.
 
For starters, it should be common knowledge now that a lot of water pokemon can actually deal with Darmanitan-galar pretty effectively, as they resist both of it's most infamous STAB moves (coughs in V-create) and, if the typing is good enough, might be impossible for darm-galar to kill. For example:

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Seismitoad in Sun: 275-324 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And then Seismitoad responds with:

52 Atk Seismitoad Earthquake vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 446-528 (107.7 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Alternatively:

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-ZenPower Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rindo Berry Fur Coat Seismitoad: 328-386 (79.2 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Seismitoad can then use earthquake and potentially finish it off with a priority move, like espeed/accelrock.

I don't think our fiery, icy gorilla's quite so deserving of a suspect. At least, not to my current knowledge.
You say that many waters can deal with Darm-GZ, then show calculations for only a single Water type, Seismatoad. Seismatoad is renowned as a solid Darm-GZ counter, but I can't think of any other Water-types that can check it nearly as reliably since they all just die to Bolt Beak. Gastrodon has the same typing but slight worse bulk on the physical side.

Let's talk about Seismatoad though. You show the calculation showing that Seismatoad can barely take a 252 + Atk V-Create with sun up, meaning that it has to come in with no prior damage taken at all. Also, since the Seismatoad in your calculation is +defense and not +speed, Darm-GZ is still faster than it after the v-create speed drop, meaning it can't even switch into the V-create and retaliate. Even if you exclude sunlight being up, which it usually is not, Seismatoad is still being 2hKOed by Intrepid Sword V-Create. Most teams run a Fire immunity though, and that means they can force Darm-GZ out and then get their toad healed up.

Secondly, you show that Rhindo Berry Seismatoad can survive a Power Whip from Darm-GZ. This is not a standard set as Seismatoad really needs its Leftovers or a Rocky Helmet to function consistently. This makes your argument pretty bad, because without the Rhindo Berry, Toad is simply destroyed by Power Whip.
 
You say that many waters can deal with Darm-GZ, then show calculations for only a single Water type, Seismatoad. Seismatoad is renowned as a solid Darm-GZ counter, but I can't think of any other Water-types that can check it nearly as reliably since they all just die to Bolt Beak. Gastrodon has the same typing but slight worse bulk on the physical side.

Let's talk about Seismatoad though. You show the calculation showing that Seismatoad can barely take a 252 + Atk V-Create with sun up, meaning that it has to come in with no prior damage taken at all. Also, since the Seismatoad in your calculation is +defense and not +speed, Darm-GZ is still faster than it after the v-create speed drop, meaning it can't even switch into the V-create and retaliate. Even if you exclude sunlight being up, which it usually is not, Seismatoad is still being 2hKOed by Intrepid Sword V-Create. Most teams run a Fire immunity though, and that means they can force Darm-GZ out and then get their toad healed up.

Secondly, you show that Rhindo Berry Seismatoad can survive a Power Whip from Darm-GZ. This is not a standard set as Seismatoad really needs its Leftovers or a Rocky Helmet to function consistently. This makes your argument pretty bad, because without the Rhindo Berry, Toad is simply destroyed by Power Whip.
I guess there is Dracovish, which with Fur Coat can survive Bolt Beak off of Band and Intrepid Sword.

Nuetrality to Ice, Grass, Electric, and the other coverage moves D-G-Z uses, Dracovish is no slouch.

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Z Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dracovish: 175-207 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Since you believe Desolate Land or Drought is common for sun support: “Even if you exclude sunlight being up, which it usually is not”, the 4x resistance keeps it from making a difference.

Moreover, Desolate Land just means no +1 to boost Bolt Beak over Intrepid Sword:

Lastly, the additional 4x Water-resistance is moreso on the double resistance to Fishous Rend, which could normally threaten Primordial Sea Melmetal.

I am not saying I would use it, but if you needed another Water-type that could potentially switch into it, Dracovish is your next closest Fur Coat option, since Seismitoad is handled by Power Whip, while D-G-Z doesn’t pack Fairy or Dragon moves.

*This was just for your “cannot think of another Water-type” conundrum.

Still Mold Breaker bypasses Fur Coat, and is a 2HKO (since it’s traded in Intrepid Sword).
Darmanitan-Galar-Zen is certainly one of the stronger wallbreakers/sweepers in BH, mostly due to it's ridiculously high base speed and wonderful STAB V-create. However, I'm not really of the opinion that it deserves an outright ban; but I think there are a lot of creative sets here and there that can actually consistently beat DGZ. , with the nature of Balanced Hackmons saying that there's absolutely nothing that can reliable check Darmanitan-Galar is pretty false. For starters, it should be common knowledge now that a lot of water pokemon can actually deal with Darmanitan-galar pretty effectively, as they resist both of it's most infamous STAB moves (coughs in V-create) and, if the typing is good enough, might be impossible for darm-galar to kill. For example:

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Seismitoad in Sun: 275-324 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And then Seismitoad responds with:

52 Atk Seismitoad Earthquake vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 446-528 (107.7 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Alternatively:

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-ZenPower Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rindo Berry Fur Coat Seismitoad: 328-386 (79.2 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Seismitoad can then use earthquake and potentially finish it off with a priority move, like espeed/accelrock.

I don't think our fiery, icy gorilla's quite so deserving of a suspect. At least, not to my current knowledge.
You forgot to make Earthquake off of 252 Atk.

I think what they feel makes it OP is that you cannot prepare to check it overall, it has so many options that packing even Fur Coat fails if you face Mold Breaker Choice Band D-G-Z.

They feel “how can you prepare for all of its variations?”

But, I know regardless of enough Water-type checks, there is usually something that can switch into it.
 
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Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

NO MONEY? NO JOB? TOO MUCH BAD NEWS??
is a Community Contributor
darm is pretty stupid. toad is not a switchin because it gets bonked by every set. as you showed in your post, toad can get 2hkod on the switch with even very minor chip from desolate land and intrepid sword, while mold breaker vcreate just 2hkos it outright (53.6 - 63%). magic guard hits wood hammer while refrigerate can explode.

other water types suffer the same issue of simply not being bulky enough to live cb vcreates, but also come with an added weakness to bolt beak. additionally, your options aren't very good or diverse. toxapex is probably the best one but brings a ground weakness and is forced into fc/prank. milotic is severely lacking in physical bulk (i've used it) while golisopod dies cause he doesn't resist vcreate. dracovish is bad.

it's true that darm isn't super hard to revenge kill, and i wouldn't call it the best mon in the metagame rn. however, i do believe that it is an unhealthy presence in the builder in how it punishes players for trying to counter threats (darm has 0 consistent counters and naturally preys on slower pokemon/builds). this type of element isn't very healthy for bh and results in a chaotic, high-variance metagame where things are just impossible to prep for. i think it's necessary to get things like darm out of the meta because they turn the unlimited freedom offered by bh into a negative attribute rather than a positive one.
 
I would probably agree with Gurpreet. I personally don't think GDZ is that terrible, but the problem stems from the fact that it's wildly unpredictable and there are sets which can get through would-be checks. It's easy to revenge kill but you have to actually survive a hit to be able to do that. Dynamax does make it somewhat more difficult to deal with, and I would argue GDZ is probably a reason as to why Dynamax got suspected to begin with given it's an effective abuser of the mechanic.

I could see action against GDZ go either way. I would support a Suspect Test for it. I also respect the council's reasoning. Frankly, I've always seen both sides of the argument, and I don't find it obnoxiously overpowered or overcentralizing like some of the recent bans.

I have something I want to talk about that I actually do find to be a problem worthy of attention. That would be Shell Smash.
900px-862Obstagoon.png
There are teams on high ladder completely riddled with Shell Smash abusers. Obstagoon is a common and predictable one, but I've also seen Tyranitar, Reshiram, Eternatus, Black Kyurem, GDZ, and more. I know fwqef posted a team who has multiple Shell Smash abusers and I've seen people reach the peak of the ladder with very minimal effort abusing mons with Sash and Smash. These Pokemon can completely trash teams who aren't prepared with multiple very good setup checks. Obstagoon is used because of its immunity to Spectral Thief. There are Pokemon who are disguised as breakers (I've seen Shell Smash Intrepid Sword GDZ) and walls (Simple Smash Eternatus on a team that already looks highly offensive). All of these Pokemon get free turns to set up unless you can somehow predict them ahead of time. It is possible to overrun a well built team just by setting up and breaking a single mon at a time. Beat Obstagoon? They'll send out another Shell Smash mon and then you gotta deal with that.

I know I haven't been horribly keen on the issue in Gen 7, but I know Shell Smash had popular support for a ban then. It's worse in Gen 8 specifically because of there being too few good walls, and offensive checks being limited. Galvanize is completely unused in favor of Bolt Beak spam. Refrigerate Black Kyurem is mediocre, but I haven't seen it used specifically to check Shell Smash sweepers. I've seen it more or less used as a suicide breaker by using Explosion to cripple annoying walls. Aerilate is completely unused due to the lack of viable Flying-types. Pixilate Zacian sucks. Triage exists as offensive priority but it's either pretty much entirely unexplored, or unused for good reason. Not to mention Dazzling exists.

As for defensive checks, Unaware is ass right now due to the only particularly bulky Pokemon stat-wise being Eternatus, and it wasn't even terribly great in Gen 7 either. Power Trip, Stored Power, Sunsteel Strike, Moongeist Beam, and Photon Geyser all render Unaware useless. Anyone who can build remotely well can reduce the effectiveness of Imposter, so I would not say Imposter is a clean check to all of these teams, and even then you gotta have Scarf on Imposter if you don't want 50/50s. That largely leaves Prankster which is a solid means of beating these setup abusers, but you can't switch it into a boosted mon which brings forth the issue of Shell Smashers being able to take out one mon at a time only for another one to come on out and set up again.

I should put emphasis on the fact that multiple Shell Smash users on a team is very common on high ladder. High ladder is riddled with Shell Smash abusers, sometimes with people running three abusers on a team. I've seen people base their entire offense on setup. And seeing a majority of my high ladder games recently be consistent of different accounts using the same general team structure (multiple shell smash users, some of which are lures), I've come to the mindset that Shell Smash should be Suspect Tested.
I've had some other minor problems, but I'm not going to talk about them right now until I'm fully confident in my opinion. Shell Smash is something I've been mildly annoyed with up until recently, and I've already talked about it on the BH Discord. I hope the BH Council makes a statement about that.
 
Regarding how there's no consistent switch-in to Darmanitan-Galar:

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Drednaw: 178-210 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Drednaw Accelerock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 504-598 (121.7 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Some More:

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Z V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Coalossal: 147-173 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Coalossal Accelerock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Abomasnow: 395-473 (95.4 - 114.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

If the above picks were too off-meta for your tastes:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Abomasnow V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Reshiram in Sun: 250-295 (61.8 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Abomasnow Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Reshiram: 159-187 (39.3 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Abomasnow in Sun: 400-472 (96.6 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(Without Sun, just going off V-Create:)
252 SpA Reshiram Blue Flare vs. -1 252 HP / 252 SpD Abomasnow: 400-472 (96.6 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Should also be noted that Reshiram even with a Modest nature outspeeds Adamant Darm-galar after a V-create.

I wanted to reinforce my opinion on DGZ with these calculations so that people can understand that it's not as impossibly hard to beat as usually believed.
 

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