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I totally agree with DF Shock here. VFB as a whole are annoying to deal with but Darm-GZ brings it to 11. Remember, unlike Rend and Beak, V-Create retains full power no matter what, which means that Pranksters are still taking a 180 BP STAB to the face coming off 160 Attack. That's higher power than the strongest Bolt Beak or Fisheous Rend users. Also, I agree that playing against Darm-GZ is pretty much hoping you have the correct checks to the set they're bringing, and that you can outplay the darm once it dynamaxes.
All of its offensive sets are hard to deal with in different ways, and having played with and against it, I have to say that you really can't go wrong with it. If you can't afford tough entry hazard control, you can run LO Magic Guard and retain a fair amount of power anyway. During the long game, the LO Magic Guard set is far more dangerous than the choice sets, with the only real annoyance being V-Create's 8 PP. it's impossible to wear down. Some teams even run wish support to offset chip damage from things like Knock Off or U-Turn.
At the moment, the council is against a suspect on DGZ.
There is no doubt that it is a prominent threat in the metagame thanks to its great STAB combination and offensive stats, but it certainly has its checks and counters. Offensively, five fairly prominent Pokemon outspeed DGZ and threaten to OHKO it, cripple it, or at least force it out. Defensively, bulky Pokemon including but not limited to Melmetal, Zamazenta-C, Eternatus, and Seismitoad can run abilities like Flash Fire, Primordial Sea, and Fur Coat to stomach its attacks. DGZ also has pretty thin defenses along with a crippling weakness to Stealth Rock, both of which can limit its opportunities to be a wallbreaker.
Mold Breaker, Desolate Land, Intrepid Sword, and Magic Guard are all very good sets for DGZ, with each one giving it an edge over one check but leaving it checked by another. With the Forme Clause implemented, DGZ is limited to one slot, meaning one of these abilities and two coverage moves along with its STAB moves. Meanwhile, the checks I mentioned above, as well as others not mentioned, like certain Reshiram variants, are all very viable in the current metagame for checking not only DGZ but other physical threats like Zacian-C, Zamazenta, Zekrom, Zeraora, and Barraskewda. These defensive mons pair together nicely to form viable defensive cores that can check many prominent offensive threats. So while DGZ can change up its ability and moves to bypass certain mons, like Grass-type moves for Seismitoad or Mold Breaker for Flash Fire, it can't cover all its checks when limited to just one set.
DGZ using Dynamax is another thing. I've mainly seen it using Dynamax to bypass softer checks like Ferrothorn and Corviknight, who rely on abilities to check DGZ but take neutral damage from its Ice-type STAB. This is usually done by Dynamaxing after being denied a V-create and using Max Hailstorm or other Max Moves depending on coverage, like Lightning or Knuckle to muscle past these soft checks. Other than these instances, DGZ loses out on Choice Band/Scarf boosts by Dynamaxing.
That being said, we don't really see a clear direction to go for the next suspect. This isn't to say we think the meta is in a perfectly healthy place right now, though. Things like Bolt/Rend and V-create are certainly very strong, and I've discussed these in the past as well, but the rise of Eternatus sets like Fur Coat and Prankster haven't been kind to these moves. We welcome more discussion from you all, not only about what should or shouldn't be banned but stuff about the metagame in general. There are still plenty of things to try out and learn about this meta!
Darmanitan-Galar-Zen is certainly one of the stronger wallbreakers/sweepers in BH, mostly due to it's ridiculously high base speed and wonderful STAB V-create. However, I'm not really of the opinion that it deserves an outright ban; but I think there are a lot of creative sets here and there that can actually consistently beat DGZ. , with the nature of Balanced Hackmons saying that there's absolutely nothing that can reliable check Darmanitan-Galar is pretty false. For starters, it should be common knowledge now that a lot of water pokemon can actually deal with Darmanitan-galar pretty effectively, as they resist both of it's most infamous STAB moves (coughs in V-create) and, if the typing is good enough, might be impossible for darm-galar to kill. For example:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Seismitoad in Sun: 275-324 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And then Seismitoad responds with:
52 Atk Seismitoad Earthquake vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 446-528 (107.7 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Alternatively:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-ZenPower Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rindo Berry Fur Coat Seismitoad: 328-386 (79.2 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Seismitoad can then use earthquake and potentially finish it off with a priority move, like espeed/accelrock.
I don't think our fiery, icy gorilla's quite so deserving of a suspect. At least, not to my current knowledge.
For starters, it should be common knowledge now that a lot of water pokemon can actually deal with Darmanitan-galar pretty effectively, as they resist both of it's most infamous STAB moves (coughs in V-create) and, if the typing is good enough, might be impossible for darm-galar to kill. For example:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Seismitoad in Sun: 275-324 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And then Seismitoad responds with:
52 Atk Seismitoad Earthquake vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 446-528 (107.7 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Alternatively:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-ZenPower Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rindo Berry Fur Coat Seismitoad: 328-386 (79.2 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Seismitoad can then use earthquake and potentially finish it off with a priority move, like espeed/accelrock.
I don't think our fiery, icy gorilla's quite so deserving of a suspect. At least, not to my current knowledge.
You say that many waters can deal with Darm-GZ, then show calculations for only a single Water type, Seismatoad. Seismatoad is renowned as a solid Darm-GZ counter, but I can't think of any other Water-types that can check it nearly as reliably since they all just die to Bolt Beak. Gastrodon has the same typing but slight worse bulk on the physical side.
Let's talk about Seismatoad though. You show the calculation showing that Seismatoad can barely take a 252 + Atk V-Create with sun up, meaning that it has to come in with no prior damage taken at all. Also, since the Seismatoad in your calculation is +defense and not +speed, Darm-GZ is still faster than it after the v-create speed drop, meaning it can't even switch into the V-create and retaliate. Even if you exclude sunlight being up, which it usually is not, Seismatoad is still being 2hKOed by Intrepid Sword V-Create. Most teams run a Fire immunity though, and that means they can force Darm-GZ out and then get their toad healed up.
Secondly, you show that Rhindo Berry Seismatoad can survive a Power Whip from Darm-GZ. This is not a standard set as Seismatoad really needs its Leftovers or a Rocky Helmet to function consistently. This makes your argument pretty bad, because without the Rhindo Berry, Toad is simply destroyed by Power Whip.
You say that many waters can deal with Darm-GZ, then show calculations for only a single Water type, Seismatoad. Seismatoad is renowned as a solid Darm-GZ counter, but I can't think of any other Water-types that can check it nearly as reliably since they all just die to Bolt Beak. Gastrodon has the same typing but slight worse bulk on the physical side.
Let's talk about Seismatoad though. You show the calculation showing that Seismatoad can barely take a 252 + Atk V-Create with sun up, meaning that it has to come in with no prior damage taken at all. Also, since the Seismatoad in your calculation is +defense and not +speed, Darm-GZ is still faster than it after the v-create speed drop, meaning it can't even switch into the V-create and retaliate. Even if you exclude sunlight being up, which it usually is not, Seismatoad is still being 2hKOed by Intrepid Sword V-Create. Most teams run a Fire immunity though, and that means they can force Darm-GZ out and then get their toad healed up.
Secondly, you show that Rhindo Berry Seismatoad can survive a Power Whip from Darm-GZ. This is not a standard set as Seismatoad really needs its Leftovers or a Rocky Helmet to function consistently. This makes your argument pretty bad, because without the Rhindo Berry, Toad is simply destroyed by Power Whip.
I guess there is Dracovish, which with Fur Coat can survive Bolt Beak off of Band and Intrepid Sword.
Nuetrality to Ice, Grass, Electric, and the other coverage moves D-G-Z uses, Dracovish is no slouch.
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar-Z Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Dracovish: 175-207 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Since you believe Desolate Land or Drought is common for sun support: “Even if you exclude sunlight being up, which it usually is not”, the 4x resistance keeps it from making a difference.
Moreover, Desolate Land just means no +1 to boost Bolt Beak over Intrepid Sword:
Lastly, the additional 4x Water-resistance is moreso on the double resistance to Fishous Rend, which could normally threaten Primordial Sea Melmetal.
I am not saying I would use it, but if you needed another Water-type that could potentially switch into it, Dracovish is your next closest Fur Coat option, since Seismitoad is handled by Power Whip, while D-G-Z doesn’t pack Fairy or Dragon moves.
*This was just for your “cannot think of another Water-type” conundrum.
Still Mold Breaker bypasses Fur Coat, and is a 2HKO (since it’s traded in Intrepid Sword).
Darmanitan-Galar-Zen is certainly one of the stronger wallbreakers/sweepers in BH, mostly due to it's ridiculously high base speed and wonderful STAB V-create. However, I'm not really of the opinion that it deserves an outright ban; but I think there are a lot of creative sets here and there that can actually consistently beat DGZ. , with the nature of Balanced Hackmons saying that there's absolutely nothing that can reliable check Darmanitan-Galar is pretty false. For starters, it should be common knowledge now that a lot of water pokemon can actually deal with Darmanitan-galar pretty effectively, as they resist both of it's most infamous STAB moves (coughs in V-create) and, if the typing is good enough, might be impossible for darm-galar to kill. For example:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Seismitoad in Sun: 275-324 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And then Seismitoad responds with:
52 Atk Seismitoad Earthquake vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 446-528 (107.7 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Alternatively:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-ZenPower Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rindo Berry Fur Coat Seismitoad: 328-386 (79.2 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Seismitoad can then use earthquake and potentially finish it off with a priority move, like espeed/accelrock.
I don't think our fiery, icy gorilla's quite so deserving of a suspect. At least, not to my current knowledge.
I think what they feel makes it OP is that you cannot prepare to check it overall, it has so many options that packing even Fur Coat fails if you face Mold Breaker Choice Band D-G-Z.
They feel “how can you prepare for all of its variations?”
But, I know regardless of enough Water-type checks, there is usually something that can switch into it.
darm is pretty stupid. toad is not a switchin because it gets bonked by every set. as you showed in your post, toad can get 2hkod on the switch with even very minor chip from desolate land and intrepid sword, while mold breaker vcreate just 2hkos it outright (53.6 - 63%). magic guard hits wood hammer while refrigerate can explode.
other water types suffer the same issue of simply not being bulky enough to live cb vcreates, but also come with an added weakness to bolt beak. additionally, your options aren't very good or diverse. toxapex is probably the best one but brings a ground weakness and is forced into fc/prank. milotic is severely lacking in physical bulk (i've used it) while golisopod dies cause he doesn't resist vcreate. dracovish is bad.
it's true that darm isn't super hard to revenge kill, and i wouldn't call it the best mon in the metagame rn. however, i do believe that it is an unhealthy presence in the builder in how it punishes players for trying to counter threats (darm has 0 consistent counters and naturally preys on slower pokemon/builds). this type of element isn't very healthy for bh and results in a chaotic, high-variance metagame where things are just impossible to prep for. i think it's necessary to get things like darm out of the meta because they turn the unlimited freedom offered by bh into a negative attribute rather than a positive one.
I would probably agree with Gurpreet. I personally don't think GDZ is that terrible, but the problem stems from the fact that it's wildly unpredictable and there are sets which can get through would-be checks. It's easy to revenge kill but you have to actually survive a hit to be able to do that. Dynamax does make it somewhat more difficult to deal with, and I would argue GDZ is probably a reason as to why Dynamax got suspected to begin with given it's an effective abuser of the mechanic.
I could see action against GDZ go either way. I would support a Suspect Test for it. I also respect the council's reasoning. Frankly, I've always seen both sides of the argument, and I don't find it obnoxiously overpowered or overcentralizing like some of the recent bans.
I have something I want to talk about that I actually do find to be a problem worthy of attention. That would be Shell Smash.
There are teams on high ladder completely riddled with Shell Smash abusers. Obstagoon is a common and predictable one, but I've also seen Tyranitar, Reshiram, Eternatus, Black Kyurem, GDZ, and more. I know fwqef posted a team who has multiple Shell Smash abusers and I've seen people reach the peak of the ladder with very minimal effort abusing mons with Sash and Smash. These Pokemon can completely trash teams who aren't prepared with multiple very good setup checks. Obstagoon is used because of its immunity to Spectral Thief. There are Pokemon who are disguised as breakers (I've seen Shell Smash Intrepid Sword GDZ) and walls (Simple Smash Eternatus on a team that already looks highly offensive). All of these Pokemon get free turns to set up unless you can somehow predict them ahead of time. It is possible to overrun a well built team just by setting up and breaking a single mon at a time. Beat Obstagoon? They'll send out another Shell Smash mon and then you gotta deal with that.
I know I haven't been horribly keen on the issue in Gen 7, but I know Shell Smash had popular support for a ban then. It's worse in Gen 8 specifically because of there being too few good walls, and offensive checks being limited. Galvanize is completely unused in favor of Bolt Beak spam. Refrigerate Black Kyurem is mediocre, but I haven't seen it used specifically to check Shell Smash sweepers. I've seen it more or less used as a suicide breaker by using Explosion to cripple annoying walls. Aerilate is completely unused due to the lack of viable Flying-types. Pixilate Zacian sucks. Triage exists as offensive priority but it's either pretty much entirely unexplored, or unused for good reason. Not to mention Dazzling exists.
As for defensive checks, Unaware is ass right now due to the only particularly bulky Pokemon stat-wise being Eternatus, and it wasn't even terribly great in Gen 7 either. Power Trip, Stored Power, Sunsteel Strike, Moongeist Beam, and Photon Geyser all render Unaware useless. Anyone who can build remotely well can reduce the effectiveness of Imposter, so I would not say Imposter is a clean check to all of these teams, and even then you gotta have Scarf on Imposter if you don't want 50/50s. That largely leaves Prankster which is a solid means of beating these setup abusers, but you can't switch it into a boosted mon which brings forth the issue of Shell Smashers being able to take out one mon at a time only for another one to come on out and set up again.
I should put emphasis on the fact that multiple Shell Smash users on a team is very common on high ladder. High ladder is riddled with Shell Smash abusers, sometimes with people running three abusers on a team. I've seen people base their entire offense on setup. And seeing a majority of my high ladder games recently be consistent of different accounts using the same general team structure (multiple shell smash users, some of which are lures), I've come to the mindset that Shell Smash should be Suspect Tested.
I've had some other minor problems, but I'm not going to talk about them right now until I'm fully confident in my opinion. Shell Smash is something I've been mildly annoyed with up until recently, and I've already talked about it on the BH Discord. I hope the BH Council makes a statement about that.
Regarding how there's no consistent switch-in to Darmanitan-Galar:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Zen V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Drednaw: 178-210 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Drednaw Accelerock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 504-598 (121.7 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Some More:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darmanitan-Galar-Z V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Coalossal: 147-173 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Coalossal Accelerock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Abomasnow: 395-473 (95.4 - 114.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
If the above picks were too off-meta for your tastes:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Abomasnow V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Reshiram in Sun: 250-295 (61.8 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Abomasnow Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Reshiram: 159-187 (39.3 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Abomasnow in Sun: 400-472 (96.6 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(Without Sun, just going off V-Create:)
252 SpA Reshiram Blue Flare vs. -1 252 HP / 252 SpD Abomasnow: 400-472 (96.6 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Should also be noted that Reshiram even with a Modest nature outspeeds Adamant Darm-galar after a V-create.
I wanted to reinforce my opinion on DGZ with these calculations so that people can understand that it's not as impossibly hard to beat as usually believed.
Here some calcs with a classique Mold Breaker Band set, with some coverage move like Close Combat, Earthquake or Bolt Beak. Basically, I was planning on doing all the band sets but I found that there was enough information with just this set and do all band set is redundant.
As you can see, it is very hard to find an ultimate check to this set, because your Darm check could wall or be destroyed, depending to the coverage. (Psea Steel, FC user, resistances...). You can counterplay Band sets with Protect-like moves. hazards control or be over-prep at Darm-GZ and bring 2 differents checks and scout the opponent coverage.
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eternatus: 362-428 (74.7 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 211-249 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 206-246 (49.7 - 59.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reshiram: 274-324 (67.8 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Darmanitan-Zen: 266-314 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 232-274 (59.7 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 204-242 (67.1 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 256-302 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 278-328 (71.6 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 272-322 (77.2 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 452-532 (113 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 346-408 (113.8 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 792-932 (191.3 - 225.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also Darm-GZ could be played no band with some set-up moves like SD or shell smash, because it forces the switch of his "checks". The ability to threaten these so-called checks makes it unhealthy for me, and deserve a suspect for that.
V-create could nerf Darm-GZ and Zacian-C but to be honest, I don't have a favorable or unfavorable opinion on it. I think it's better to ban a problematic pokemon than to try to nerf it by a roundabout way.
Bolt Beak / Fishious Rend aren't a problem for me because you had lot of way to deal with it (Para / Prankster / immunity / Fur Coat) . I'm against a suspect for it.
Shell Smash is quite interesting but I think it is new, people are hype by the new RmT and we was not prepared for that. Maybe with some time of reflexion, the team will not working because the meta will adapt to this kind of team. But I agree, it must be on the watch list. With Mixed sweepers in the meta and the lack of Mixed wall, I think Shell Smash could be very dangerous.
Welcome to Smogon and thanks for posting in the thread! For any future posts, please try to avoid one-liners and please consider providing example sets and/or replays of what you are discussing, if you have them.
The sets you mention have been tried and tested for as long as the combination of moves and abilities has been available, and it just isn't a great strategy. The quote below is from the Gen 7 BH thread so has some examples that don't apply to Gen 8, but the meat of the quote is still very relevant.
Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request) said:
prank copycat in general is a super gimmicky strat that loses to many things. opposing pranks can wall it and shut down copycat with haze or recover, rocky helmet and stuff is super annoying, shed walls it, triage and priority beat it, etc. but the big issue i have with it is just how long it takes to do anything. most offensive mons thrive on forcing out a pokemon into another pokemon to get a setup opportunity. but even if youre able to do that with prank copycat, youre still not able to get too much done because the aforementioned threats still hard wall the set.
copycat also doesnt really beat offensive dudes because in general they dont do too much damage to themselves, stuff like diancie can just click espeed on you even if they used a ground move last turn while ph users all win. i guess you could beat some offensive smash users without dazzling or something but thats still kind of sketch.
while they technically do have a unique niche in that they can avoid being hit by things, most good teams are well prepared for them so i'd probably recommend something else that can put in work in the matchup. at the very least the set needs something to set it apart from all the easily countered low ladder stuff, but that might not be possible considering the fact that you dont have enough moveslots to work with.
In my opinion, Prankster + Copycat attackers are fun to use, but very niche. Before it was banned, I used Prankster + Copycat + Double Iron Bash on Zacian-C to have an extremely strong, +1 priority move with a coinflip flinch rate. In the current meta, the best option to fill the Prankster + Copycat niche would have to be DGZ with V-create, but there are far better and more effective sets for it to run instead. I stand by this strategy being niche and usually outclassed by more traditional strategies. However, Prankster + Copycat combined with semi-invulnerable moves like Dig and Dive is simply not an efficient or viable offensive strategy in Balanced Hackmons.
Welcome to Smogon and thanks for posting in the our thread! For any future posts, please try to avoid one-liners and please consider providing example sets and/or replays of what you are discussing, if you have them.
The sets you mention have been tried and tested for as long as the combination of moves and abilities has been available, and it just isn't a great strategy. The quote below is from the Gen 7 BH thread so has some examples that don't apply to Gen 8, but the meat of the quote is still very relevant.
In my opinion, Prankster + Copycat attackers are fun to use, but very niche. Before it was banned, I used Prankster + Copycat + Double Iron Bash on Zacian-C to have an extremely strong, +1 priority move with a coinflip flinch rate. In the current meta, the best option to fill the Prankster + Copycat niche would have to be DGZ with V-create, but there are far better and more effective sets for it to run instead. I stand by this strategy being niche and usually outclassed by more traditional strategies. However, Prankster + Copycat combined with semi-invulnerable moves like Dig and Dive is simply not an efficient or viable offensive strategy in Balanced Hackmons.
If only Metronome, the item, worked as it should, then it would match Bulbapedia in triggering during both the invulnerability turn and during Copycat (it is based off the move called, and not the calling move); as that would effectively boost its power even during non-damaging turns (like Defense Curl before Rollout).
Ultimately; the best option is a Phantom Force + Copy Cat + V-Create + Filler in order to trigger lowering the Speed for attacking turns, and Phantom to break past Protect clones.
You are then left with either Spore, or a set up move to gain the advantage. Phantump would have a good immunity to Magic Bounce Spore, have STAB off of Phantom Force, and V-Create for Steels. Plus Vs Scarf Imposter (having the advantage of always going second on the attacking turn).
But I know that without Metronome, much of the use is moot, at least until Marowak-Alolan is released again.
I have to say this set can be very annoying (I know last gen I definitely lost some games to copycat wak-a) but I find it a lot easier to deal with this gen partly because the strongest move to abuse it with by far is deleted (shadow force is as strong as band dig) and partly because now Teleport is negative priority and extremely spammable on defensive mons.
I think loser explained it pretty well. The thing with Copycat sets in general is that you don't see them in tours at all, and you don't see them past the 1300s on ladder. I think a lot of the problem that these kinds of sets you'll see on the lower end of the ladder face is, well, beyond the odd surprise (pretty much anyone loses a single mon to Imprison Transform users when they begin laddering, despite them being complete ass for the most part), they simply fail to do just about anything beyond be a temporary annoyance. And it's not just Copycat either. You have a various assortment of garbage in the same vein. I've seen dumb crap like Prankster Electrify Ground-types. Stuff that focuses so much on a very specific niche that it often comes at a detriment to the set and team itself. None of it works after a certain point. High ladder involves using exceptionally strong breakers, or bulky legendaries who can either set up or provide consistent pressure. A lot of these teams who will try to rely on gimmicks like these will end up crumbling over 30 turns against well-built teams specifically because they can't provide that same pressure. Offensive pressure wins games. Even if offense isn't an issue, you have to worry about being hard walled by Fur Coat mons. Even Pokemon like Melmetal or Eternatus can still be an issue. An offensive set needs to be threatening, not just hard to kill to find good success.
Just keep in mind, if it looks too gimmicky to be used, it probably is. Test your sets and see if they see consistent success before posting them here. You might find wins with the Copycat setup specifically in part due to players on the lower end of the ladder not knowing how to handle it and be prepared, but you will also come to realize it doesn't work once you climb high enough. The higher you go, the more prepared opponents will be, and they will give you less opportunities to use gimmicks while also trying to punish you for using them. At best it's going to be an uphill battle. I'm not trying to say most gimmicks will fail, but Copycat is something that people have already experimented with as loser said.
You will find quite a few of us here frequently try to experiment and make new teams. Me personally, I like to try out sets that can work in theory but are relatively unused. Regenerator Pokemon are particularly unused in favor of Ice Scales Pokemon, but by no means are a lot of them bad in any measure. Bulky offense is great, and I sometimes try Choice Band on Regenerator users. A set I liked using in Gen 7 was RegenBand Necrozma-DM. I'm not saying this is what you should use, but rather I'm offering some examples.
Make yourself welcome with the community here, I think you'll find a few fun sets posted every now and then. I hope you enjoy your time with BH!
I would like to write more about Shell Smash and why I think it deserves some sort of control placed on it. Generational shifts have made Shell Smash much better than it was in Gen 7 in a myriad of ways, and I'll probably forget some of them in this post, so feel free to add on to or correct me if I miss something.
* Lower Defensive power of mons: The lower bulk of Pokemon this gen means that it is easier to break them by brute force with Shell Smash. This means that Shell Smash users don't have to be worried about being able to run only two moves, and can use their fourth moveslot to shut those defensive mons down such as with Spore or Taunt. It also means that they are easier to support with teammates, who don't need to lure or weaken the defensive mons, but can instead be used to support the team with Rapid Spin, Wish, or Status support.
* Weaker Priority users: Dark-Types are freer to set up this gen because of the lack of good Pixilate users. No one's running Mach Punch, and maybe they should start, but Mach Punch has little use other than to check Shell Smash Dark-types, accentuating the argument that preparing for Shell Smash spam significantly weakens the matchup against other teams. This doesn't even count for other Shell Smash spammers, only Dark-types (Darm-GZ doesn't die if it's at full health from a Zama-C Mach Punch).
* Better Hazard control: Court Change has been a godsend for these teams, which keeps their Focus Sashes intact. They don't need to worry about setting up their own hazards because the Shell Smash spam can break through everything without them. There is also Magic Guard Rapid Spin Darm-GZ if they decide to use that, which can afford to run Spectral Thief, V-Create, and Icicle crash in the other slots, letting it double as a check to opposing Smashers.
* VFB: Shell Smash can be combined with VFB for crazily strong coverage moves, since Shell Smash increases Speed so much that nothing unboosted or scarfed can outspeed its users. You may argue that VFB is a greater problem than Shell Smash, but I disagree. V-Create, Fisheous Rend and Bolt Beak each have a pool of viable users (if we take Shell Smash out of the equation), and other Pokemon who try to use these moves are seen mainly as gimmicks or off-meta. Shell Smash can be ran on just about anything with halfway reasonable offensive stats, meaning that you can't predict which Pokemon are using it from Team Preview like you can for VFB.
* Obstagoon: Yes, I'm including Obstagoon in its own section here. It's a Dark/Normal type with actually reasonable stats (I'm looking at you, Alolan Ratikate). Immunity to Spectral Thief and all targeted Prankster moves means the only way to stop its setup is with Prankster Haze, or having a mon that can kill it with a multi-hit move out while it sets up (This can fail if it's running White Herb, which many do). With Simple, it's able to run Extreme Speed/ multi Attack + Power Trip as its only coverage, Ohkoing things as bulky as Zacian-Crowned after setup. Taunt is probably its best fourth move, shutting down Prankster users after they haze and letting it set up again. Obstagoon becomes so powerful that it can even defeat Dynamax resists with Power Trip.
* Extreme Unpredictability: Building on from all the other points here, Shell Smash makes the metagame extremely unstable. There's no way to intuit that something's running Shell Smash, and there's no way to know what moves it could be running once it's set up without incurring serious losses that will probably lose you the game. Even if you try to prepare for Shell Smash with specialized sets, I guarantee you there's a Shell Smash team that can beat you, just because so many Pokemon can effectively run it. Power Trip users like Obstagoon, bulky versatile mons like Eternatus and Reshiram, Frail fast mons like Darm-GZ, even walls like Melmetal disguised as walls can all use Shell Smash to break through teams, bypassing any of the standard clauses like Form or Ability clause that could normally hold them up. This doesn't even get into the really gimmicky stuff like Baton Pass chains and Speed Boost mons.
My Solution: Banning Shell Smash may be the easiest thing to do, but it may be too drastic. I would instead prefer a Shell Smash clause limiting it to one user per team. There is already precedent for this in Gen 6's -Ate clause, which, no matter whether or not we agree with it, was implemented. I understand the extreme hesitation that people have with complex bans, but I think this one is a specific case that should be evaluated on its own.
In my opinion, Shell Smash is closer to an ability, like Intrepid Sword, than existing moves that we have banned such as Chatter or OHKO moves, which were banned because they turned the game into RNG. Shell Smash arguably removes nearly as much of the element of skill from the actual gameplay as RNG-based moves do.
I would like to write more about Shell Smash and why I think it deserves some sort of control placed on it. Generational shifts have made Shell Smash much better than it was in Gen 7 in a myriad of ways, and I'll probably forget some of them in this post, so feel free to add on to or correct me if I miss something.
* Lower Defensive power of mons: The lower bulk of Pokemon this gen means that it is easier to break them by brute force with Shell Smash. This means that Shell Smash users don't have to be worried about being able to run only two moves, and can use their fourth moveslot to shut those defensive mons down such as with Spore or Taunt. It also means that they are easier to support with teammates, who don't need to lure or weaken the defensive mons, but can instead be used to support the team with Rapid Spin, Wish, or Status support.
* Weaker Priority users: Dark-Types are freer to set up this gen because of the lack of good Pixilate users. No one's running Mach Punch, and maybe they should start, but Mach Punch has little use other than to check Shell Smash Dark-types, accentuating the argument that preparing for Shell Smash spam significantly weakens the matchup against other teams. This doesn't even count for other Shell Smash spammers, only Dark-types (Darm-GZ doesn't die if it's at full health from a Zama-C Mach Punch).
* Better Hazard control: Court Change has been a godsend for these teams, which keeps their Focus Sashes intact. They don't need to worry about setting up their own hazards because the Shell Smash spam can break through everything without them. There is also Magic Guard Rapid Spin Darm-GZ if they decide to use that, which can afford to run Spectral Thief, V-Create, and Icicle crash in the other slots, letting it double as a check to opposing Smashers.
* VFB: Shell Smash can be combined with VFB for crazily strong coverage moves, since Shell Smash increases Speed so much that nothing unboosted or scarfed can outspeed its users. You may argue that VFB is a greater problem than Shell Smash, but I disagree. V-Create, Fisheous Rend and Bolt Beak each have a pool of viable users (if we take Shell Smash out of the equation), and other Pokemon who try to use these moves are seen mainly as gimmicks or off-meta. Shell Smash can be ran on just about anything with halfway reasonable offensive stats, meaning that you can't predict which Pokemon are using it from Team Preview like you can for VFB.
* Obstagoon: Yes, I'm including Obstagoon in its own section here. It's a Dark/Normal type with actually reasonable stats (I'm looking at you, Alolan Ratikate). Immunity to Spectral Thief and all targeted Prankster moves means the only way to stop its setup is with Prankster Haze, or having a mon that can kill it with a multi-hit move out while it sets up (This can fail if it's running White Herb, which many do). With Simple, it's able to run Extreme Speed/ multi Attack + Power Trip as its only coverage, Ohkoing things as bulky as Zacian-Crowned after setup. Taunt is probably its best fourth move, shutting down Prankster users after they haze and letting it set up again. Obstagoon becomes so powerful that it can even defeat Dynamax resists with Power Trip.
* Extreme Unpredictability: Building on from all the other points here, Shell Smash makes the metagame extremely unstable. There's no way to intuit that something's running Shell Smash, and there's no way to know what moves it could be running once it's set up without incurring serious losses that will probably lose you the game. Even if you try to prepare for Shell Smash with specialized sets, I guarantee you there's a Shell Smash team that can beat you, just because so many Pokemon can effectively run it. Power Trip users like Obstagoon, bulky versatile mons like Eternatus and Reshiram, Frail fast mons like Darm-GZ, even walls like Melmetal disguised as walls can all use Shell Smash to break through teams, bypassing any of the standard clauses like Form or Ability clause that could normally hold them up. This doesn't even get into the really gimmicky stuff like Baton Pass chains and Speed Boost mons.
My Solution: Banning Shell Smash may be the easiest thing to do, but it may be too drastic. I would instead prefer a Shell Smash clause limiting it to one user per team. There is already precedent for this in Gen 6's -Ate clause, which, no matter whether or not we agree with it, was implemented. I understand the extreme hesitation that people have with complex bans, but I think this one is a specific case that should be evaluated on its own.
In my opinion, Shell Smash is closer to an ability, like Intrepid Sword, than existing moves that we have banned such as Chatter or OHKO moves, which were banned because they turned the game into RNG. Shell Smash arguably removes nearly as much of the element of skill from the actual gameplay as RNG-based moves do.
Shell Smash clause might be the best solution here. I agree that Shell Smash itself is not broken at all, but Shell Smash spam teams easily spirals the game out of control with its extreme unpredictability and the absurd power. I'd also like to add that first: The defensive power of mons isn't really weakened with new additions like Melmetal and Eternatus, but the choice is limited so offensive teams can target these walls and easily break through teams, like using Turboblaze Excadrill to target Fur Coat Eternatus, or a mixed Smash set with Earth Power/Blue Flare etc. to target Melmetal.
Second, Priority users are still as strong. Kyurem-Black and Zekrom (and maybe Zacian) are all strong -Ate FakeSpeed users. They're just not used much due to the introduction of Melmetal, which as incredible physical bulk and resists two of the three options mentioned above. Although Zacian only has 130 Atk which is pretty mediocre compared to Kyurem and Zekrom, it is already enough to deal with Smash users at -1 Defense and 144 BP STAB (FakeSpeed *1.2). However, this can easily countered by Dazzling, which is a pretty straightforward ability to pair with Shell Smash. It also doesn't perform really well in the general meta as mentioned above, with resists everywhere.
Last but not least, Obstagoon's immunity to Spectral Thief realistically only shines on its turn of set-up, as pretty much nothing can live a hit from a +4 STAB 260BP move (Simple+Shell Smash) then steal its boosts anyway. Good players would also not try to set up their sweepers in the face of a wall in fear of Spectral Thief, but now this worry is also gone, meaning that only Prankster Hazers and Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned can stop it from destroying a team. Yes, Zama-C is the only viable Fur Coat wall that can resist both Obstagoon's STABs and potentially OHKO back, but it's still close:
+4 252+ Atk Obstagoon Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 165-194 (42.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
This easily leads to an over-centralizing meta and forces every team to run Prankster/FC Zama-C to not lose your whole team to a single raccoon. Although these checks are commonly found on a (defensive) team, most teams only have one of them, making it really easy to send a second breaker and overwhelm the opponent. This further supports a limit to one Shell Smash user per team. Feel free to add on your views and concerns about this matter, and thanks for reading!
Random detriment, but I've always found imposter to be such a horrifically annoying ability to fight against. The very nature of the ability is basically a 1-card-fits all counter to any pokemon, because it literally just copies their sets. Apart from that, it's also very useful for doing things like scouting out the enemy's calcs, or deflecting hazards, or just revealing entire movesets. Against setup sweepers, Imposter reduces the entire matchup into a fifty-fifty where you're just praying that you attack first and don't lose the speed-tie. I think any ability that forces all setup mon situations into a diceroll isn't good for the metagame.
It's also extremely useful in nearly all situations. Throwing out an imposter on the first turn is the safest opening play in the entire metagame because of it's consistency and usefulness. You get to scout an entire mon and potentially see right into all of the opponents' strategies, allowing you to do things like setup with the opponents' own mons, or alternatively prevent setup. It drives me crazy whenever I see an imposter mon because it means that I can't setup in any way whatsoever, but then I also can't use any pokemon that's weakened and has priority, and I also can't hope to run a defensive pokemon with toxic.
And then with the ability to do this multiple times? Imposter has to be one of the strongest abilities in the entire metagame, and considering how many 50/50s it creates, one of the most braindead as well.
Random detriment, but I've always found imposter to be such a horrifically annoying ability to fight against. The very nature of the ability is basically a 1-card-fits all counter to any pokemon, because it literally just copies their sets. Apart from that, it's also very useful for doing things like scouting out the enemy's calcs, or deflecting hazards, or just revealing entire movesets. Against setup sweepers, Imposter reduces the entire matchup into a fifty-fifty where you're just praying that you attack first and don't lose the speed-tie. I think any ability that forces all setup mon situations into a diceroll isn't good for the metagame.
It's also extremely useful in nearly all situations. Throwing out an imposter on the first turn is the safest opening play in the entire metagame because of it's consistency and usefulness. You get to scout an entire mon and potentially see right into all of the opponents' strategies, allowing you to do things like setup with the opponents' own mons, or alternatively prevent setup. It drives me crazy whenever I see an imposter mon because it means that I can't setup in any way whatsoever, but then I also can't use any pokemon that's weakened and has priority, and I also can't hope to run a defensive pokemon with toxic.
And then with the ability to do this multiple times? Imposter has to be one of the strongest abilities in the entire metagame, and considering how many 50/50s it creates, one of the most braindead as well.
If anything, Imposter is the only glue holding this shitstorm of a meta together. Without it, considering the power of the offensive mons combined with setup moves like shell smash, BH instantly turns into even more of an HO fest where winning is decided by who gets to smash and click buttons first.
I feel like Flint summed Imposter up well in the gen 7 bans thread:
“Why isn’t Imposter banned? Imposter is one of the few things in BH that you have a near 100% expectation of what you'll be facing because you design the set. The only variation is the amount of HP and the item. Imposter-proofing ("Improofing") is woven into the entire experience of BH and the power of imposter is entirely dependent on your own teambuilding. Taking advantage of uncommon hard-counters to sweepers, trapping via Anchor/Waves and even its limited 20 pp movepool are all common and valid strategies.”
Imposter and its power is woven into the fabric of BH. Especially with the flexibility of BH, if your team loses to Imposter, that is entirely your fault. Taking it away would fundamentally change BH to an unrecognizable and unhealthy meta.
Of course, all of this isn’t even mentioning that Imposter is at a definite low point right now. Wobbuffet has frankly piss poor bulk compared to Chansey, which means that it is much easier to wear down over a match. Additionally, more and more Imposters are now running Choice Scarf since its bulk is much harder to abuse now. This change makes opposing Imposters much easier to exploit than in past gens.
Request: can we not use the “glue fabric” reasoning for imposter - I know this line of thought was popularized in earlier gens, but imposter should be judged as banworthy or not on its own merits not a hypothetical HO apocalyptic scenario. If an imposter ban would lead to such a dominance then those elements would be addressed via future tiering policy.
In my explanation last gen, I was very careful to not include this and I’m sure the current council would hold a similar stance regardless of their position on its ban-worthiness
Random detriment, but I've always found imposter to be such a horrifically annoying ability to fight against. The very nature of the ability is basically a 1-card-fits all counter to any pokemon, because it literally just copies their sets. Apart from that, it's also very useful for doing things like scouting out the enemy's calcs, or deflecting hazards, or just revealing entire movesets. Against setup sweepers, Imposter reduces the entire matchup into a fifty-fifty where you're just praying that you attack first and don't lose the speed-tie. I think any ability that forces all setup mon situations into a diceroll isn't good for the metagame.
It's also extremely useful in nearly all situations. Throwing out an imposter on the first turn is the safest opening play in the entire metagame because of it's consistency and usefulness. You get to scout an entire mon and potentially see right into all of the opponents' strategies, allowing you to do things like setup with the opponents' own mons, or alternatively prevent setup. It drives me crazy whenever I see an imposter mon because it means that I can't setup in any way whatsoever, but then I also can't use any pokemon that's weakened and has priority, and I also can't hope to run a defensive pokemon with toxic.
And then with the ability to do this multiple times? Imposter has to be one of the strongest abilities in the entire metagame, and considering how many 50/50s it creates, one of the most braindead as well.
What 50/50s are you referring to exactly? In my experience, playing against Imposter has been fairly linear and has no element of surprise in it, let alone 50/50s. Could it be that the team you're using is underprepared for it?
As far as I can tell, the bulk of your arguments only prove Imposter is really good. I don't see why it's unhealthy from your post, nor do I see why it's unhealthy from my experience in the metagame. If you were to expand on your reasoning, that'd be good, but I strongly encourage that you take some more time to adjust your team accordingly since it seems like your experience stems from a lack of preparation.
If Shell Smash is banned, wont Belly Drum just take its place? Further, it allows all of your physical moves to boost to full potential; while Shell Smash is for Power Trip.
drum has 2 hugely limiting factors in practice that prevent it from doing the same things as smash did. first of all, being restricted to physical attackers means that melmetal is much more reliable as a blanket setup check (most likely with prank) cause he lives nearly all the priority moves (only good exception i can think of is galv zekrom).
also, even if they bring vcreate or something for melmetal, the hp drop from drum still punishes them and they cant just set up for free on something else that might come in. this brings a real cost to setting up and makes these teams much more manageable offensively cause theyre constantly dealing damage to themselves in order to do anything.
imposter is also insanely difficult to manage with drummers. you need a hard counter for your guy and even then youre at risk of losing to dynamax. mons cant self improof with sash cause theyre drum, so your only options are unburden (which can lose to dynamax) and something like multi attack espeed mach ghosts (which are bad).
in theory drum looks about as scary as smash, but in practice i think it's the same situation as mega ray vs base ray last gen, where the small stat differences actually had a huge impact on its viability.
drum has 2 hugely limiting factors in practice that prevent it from doing the same things as smash did. first of all, being restricted to physical attackers means that melmetal is much more reliable as a blanket setup check (most likely with prank) cause he lives nearly all the priority moves (only good exception i can think of is galv zekrom).
also, even if they bring vcreate or something for melmetal, the hp drop from drum still punishes them and they cant just set up for free on something else that might come in. this brings a real cost to setting up and makes these teams much more manageable offensively cause theyre constantly dealing damage to themselves in order to do anything.
imposter is also insanely difficult to manage with drummers. you need a hard counter for your guy and even then youre at risk of losing to dynamax. mons cant self improof with sash cause theyre drum, so your only options are unburden (which can lose to dynamax) and something like multi attack espeed mach ghosts (which are bad).
in theory drum looks about as scary as smash, but in practice i think it's the same situation as mega ray vs base ray last gen, where the small stat differences actually had a huge impact on its viability.
Ya, or just Triage Drain Punch for Melmetal, as even non-Fighting types can KO it after Belly Drum:
+6 252+ Atk Triage Aegislash-Blade Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Melmetal: 464-548 (97.8 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (no item boost)
The great thing about Triage is you can also heal off the damage from Belly Drum by attacking, so you can set up repeatedly, and also use Life Orb. This makes other attacks strong enough on even neutral hits-
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus: 428-504 (88.4 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
So Prankster users in Eterantus and Melmetal are KOed, and this is all without STAB. Anyways, your point is overall true, but I find there are always key exceptions.
One thing I found is just Improofing with Unaware:
252+ Atk Imposter Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta: 69-82 (17.7 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO
A moveset like Mach Punch, Knock Off / Spectral Thief, Recover, Belly Drum.
Zamazenta is rare in that it has great Speed, Attack, and Bulk.
This allows you to set up and Heal as needed, and keep your offensive pressure against Melmetal, not get threatened by Dynamax, and still function as a check to other set up sweepers (and at least versus Intrepid Sword). Coverage against Ghosts pairs well with STAB, and affords useful secondary effects.
Even after taking Belly Drum, it can survive hits and is fast enough to use Recover the following turn, so it can stay afloat. Plus, since it is still fast, it won’t need a secondary priority move, and can afford to just opt for a coverage move.
Sure, your examples of Ghosts with Immunity provide anti-Imposter responses, but simply surviving is all that is needed, and Zamazenta can effectively live to tell the tale after a boost and not fear Imposter thanks to Unaware.
Lastly, Unaware was already seen on its Crowned Form, with one benefit of taking boosts, and even surviving SpA / Mixed sweepers who use Shell Smash, whereas Fur Coat only helps against Physical Attacks
This set works similarly to the Excadrill set I created, but serves as a Defensive utility, bypassing opposing Zamazenta-Crowned’s Cotton Guard, and ignoring Intrepid Swords, or set up boosting moves.
Ultimately, it stays Imposterproof due to not taking boosts from it, even if the foe uses Spectral Thief, and can use a Super Effective Attack while the foe cannot use Fighting STAB.
Zamazenta-Crowned has been known for using Unaware in the past, but now it doesn’t have to focus on just taking hits, it has a more effective way of dealing them, with Multi Attack, keeping the power of Close Combat with zero drawbacks.
Sunsteel works well to dent Fur Coat like Eternatus, while breaking down PH Zacian.
I should probably address two points here which I feel are important.
First, Imposter. Imposter has always been a staple of BH, but I wouldn't say it holds the meta together. Its presence has always led to a unique teambuilding process known as imposter-proofing. Imposter-proofing is when you add checks to your own pokemon on your team. The idea being Imposter has a much more difficult time getting any momentum upon switching in. Almost anything can be an improof. I've even used Imposter as an improof to my pokemon as Imposter doesn't activate on transformed pokemon and Snorlax/Munchlax (and Chansey in gen 7) are already good special walls.
There's a few issues with this, though. Not all improofs are perfect. Not all situations will be the same. Sometimes Imposter can gain momentum by pivoting when you switch in your improof, a specific scenario being a FC/Scales improof for a Band/Specs mon. Here's an example of one of my teams here.
Kyurem-White @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Dynamax Cannon
- Earth Power
- U-turn
Note: Volt Switch is usually standard on Specs users but U-turn is fine if you're improofing with a Water-type.
Primarina @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Moonblast
- Scald
- Spectral Thief
Fairly standard specs Kyu-W set. It's improofed by this Primarina set. It's not the greatest example, but Imposters can gain momentum by pivoting off my Primarina. Otherwise Kyurem-W cannot do anything to Primarina. Also of note RegenVest users can still thrive in the meta despite Ice Scales having higher usage, as I've said in my previous post. There are other Pokemon which can work as improofs for Kyurem-W as well, such as Ice Scales Snorlax, but I specifically chose Primarina for my use case.
Imposter can also use Dynamax to its advantage to try and break improofs. But both of these scenarios are controlled specifically by your teambuilding. Even with Dynamax, Imposter usually fails to break good improofs. I know momentum is much more difficult to deal with, which is why some mons will forego pivoting moves in favor of trapping moves. This is seen more often on defensive pokemon because they can afford the moveslot and also denying Imposter the opportunity to heal itself is critical. Anchor Shot Melmetal is a common example. Trapping Imposter will guarantee they faint because they only have 5 PP on each move.
Imposter has to be one of the strongest abilities in the entire metagame, and considering how many 50/50s it creates, one of the most braindead as well.
I personally do not agree with this due to the reasons outlined above. Given you can control every aspect of your team, you can also control how effective Imposter is at any given time. It's difficult, and I am not saying it's necessarily healthy for the metagame as I've seen legitimate arguments saying it restricts teambuilding, but it can be done. One thing I should point out is that I see "hyper offense" being mentioned a lot in this thread. Hyper offense doesn't exist beyond Shell Smash spam, and it never will because of Imposter. If your team is too offensive, even in the context of spamming Shell Smash, Imposter can and will beat you. "True" HO cannot exist in BH as it currently stands. The logic being if your team cannot be improofed, it won't win against Imposter. Even in Gen 7 where the amount of options were nearly unlimited, building a "true" HO team was nearly impossible. In Gen 8, you will only ever see balance teams, with very occasional semi-stall.
Now, the main reason I wanted to talk about Imposter was a point abriel gabram brought up.
If anything, Imposter is the only glue holding this shitstorm of a meta together. Without it, considering the power of the offensive mons combined with setup moves like shell smash, BH instantly turns into even more of an HO fest where winning is decided by who gets to smash and click buttons first.
One quirk with BH that has always existed is Imposter rises in viability with setup. The more you see Shell Smash, the more you see Imposter. This is because Imposter is often used at the highest level of play specifically as a check to setup. Scarf Imposter is used to get the upper hand on Shell Smash sweepers. It is the only reliable offensive check due to Dazzling. The only reliable defensive check is Prankster Haze. But I would not call this healthy for the meta. The only reason Imposter is seeing increased use recently is due to Shell Smash. Deal with Shell Smash and Imposter use goes down. Same stuff happened in Gen 7 when people were discussing Shell Smash as a potential issue. Whenever Shell Smash usage spiked, be it through an RMT or something else, Imposter usage usually followed.
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Secondly, I would like to speak about setup again. Belly Drum was brought up as something of concern should we ban Shell Smash. I should note that one of the reasons Shell Smash is so difficult to deal with is because it enables physical, special, and mixed attackers simultaneously, and on top of this it boosts speed. Belly Drum does not boost speed (Unburden was already mentioned). Of the setup moves that do boost speed, Shift Gear gives half the boosts smash does and does not boost Special Attack, while Quiver Dance boosts Special Defense rather than Attack and also gives half the boosts. One thing about Shell Smash is it's immediately threatening turn two, whereas every single other setup move is either not as strong or has drawbacks. Shell Smash does have a drawback, but reducing defenses means very little with White Herb and Focus Sash. Sometimes even then it doesn't matter.
Every single other setup move is more manageable either through requiring more setup to be equally threatening or having drawbacks that are more noticeable than Shell Smash. They're more manageable by simply having more checks as well. Spectral Thief alone makes other forms of setup much more difficult.
I should probably address two points here which I feel are important.
View attachment 235774
First, Imposter. Imposter has always been a staple of BH, but I wouldn't say it holds the meta together. Its presence has always led to a unique teambuilding process known as imposter-proofing. Imposter-proofing is when you add checks to your own pokemon on your team. The idea being Imposter has a much more difficult time getting any momentum upon switching in. Almost anything can be an improof. I've even used Imposter as an improof to my pokemon as Imposter doesn't activate on transformed pokemon and Snorlax/Munchlax (and Chansey in gen 7) are already good special walls.
There's a few issues with this, though. Not all improofs are perfect. Not all situations will be the same. Sometimes Imposter can gain momentum by pivoting when you switch in your improof, a specific scenario being a FC/Scales improof for a Band/Specs mon. Here's an example of one of my teams here.
Kyurem-White @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Dynamax Cannon
- Earth Power
- U-turn
Note: Volt Switch is usually standard on Specs users but U-turn is fine if you're improofing with a Water-type.
Primarina @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Moonblast
- Scald
- Spectral Thief
Fairly standard specs Kyu-W set. It's improofed by this Primarina set. It's not the greatest example, but Imposters can gain momentum by pivoting off my Primarina. Otherwise Kyurem-W cannot do anything to Primarina. Also of note RegenVest users can still thrive in the meta despite Ice Scales having higher usage, as I've said in my previous post. There are other Pokemon which can work as improofs for Kyurem-W as well, such as Ice Scales Snorlax, but I specifically chose Primarina for my use case.
Imposter can also use Dynamax to its advantage to try and break improofs. But both of these scenarios are controlled specifically by your teambuilding. Even with Dynamax, Imposter usually fails to break good improofs. I know momentum is much more difficult to deal with, which is why some mons will forego pivoting moves in favor of trapping moves. This is seen more often on defensive pokemon because they can afford the moveslot and also denying Imposter the opportunity to heal itself is critical. Anchor Shot Melmetal is a common example. Trapping Imposter will guarantee they faint because they only have 5 PP on each move.
I personally do not agree with this due to the reasons outlined above. Given you can control every aspect of your team, you can also control how effective Imposter is at any given time. It's difficult, and I am not saying it's necessarily healthy for the metagame as I've seen legitimate arguments saying it restricts teambuilding, but it can be done. One thing I should point out is that I see "hyper offense" being mentioned a lot in this thread. Hyper offense doesn't exist beyond Shell Smash spam, and it never will because of Imposter. If your team is too offensive, even in the context of spamming Shell Smash, Imposter can and will beat you. "True" HO cannot exist in BH as it currently stands. The logic being if your team cannot be improofed, it won't win against Imposter. Even in Gen 7 where the amount of options were nearly unlimited, building a "true" HO team was nearly impossible. In Gen 8, you will only ever see balance teams, with very occasional semi-stall.
Now, the main reason I wanted to talk about Imposter was a point abriel gabram brought up.
One quirk with BH that has always existed is Imposter rises in viability with setup. The more you see Shell Smash, the more you see Imposter. This is because Imposter is often used at the highest level of play specifically as a check to setup. Scarf Imposter is used to get the upper hand on Shell Smash sweepers. It is the only reliable offensive check due to Dazzling. The only reliable defensive check is Prankster Haze. But I would not call this healthy for the meta. The only reason Imposter is seeing increased use recently is due to Shell Smash. Deal with Shell Smash and Imposter use goes down. Same stuff happened in Gen 7 when people were discussing Shell Smash as a potential issue. Whenever Shell Smash usage spiked, be it through an RMT or something else, Imposter usage usually followed.
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Secondly, I would like to speak about setup again. Belly Drum was brought up as something of concern should we ban Shell Smash. I should note that one of the reasons Shell Smash is so difficult to deal with is because it enables physical, special, and mixed attackers simultaneously, and on top of this it boosts speed. Belly Drum does not boost speed (Unburden was already mentioned). Of the setup moves that do boost speed, Shift Gear gives half the boosts smash does and does not boost Special Attack, while Quiver Dance boosts Special Defense rather than Attack and also gives half the boosts. One thing about Shell Smash is it's immediately threatening turn two, whereas every single other setup move is either not as strong or has drawbacks. Shell Smash does have a drawback, but reducing defenses means very little with White Herb and Focus Sash. Sometimes even then it doesn't matter.
Every single other setup move is more manageable either through requiring more setup to be equally threatening or having drawbacks that are more noticeable than Shell Smash. They're more manageable by simply having more checks as well. Spectral Thief alone makes other forms of setup much more difficult.
I think one thing to consider for your argument is that Shell Smash, on Unburden sets or not, will use other items like White Herb, or Focus Sash, which means that it achieves a flat +2 (2 x) boost.
Quiver Dance, and Shift Gear provide a flat +1 (1.5 x) boost, but if you add Life Orb, that makes the 1.5 x 1.3 = 1.95
This means you don’t have to stick for situational one time use items like Focus Sash, or White Herb, and you get a 1.3 x boost before you even set up.
This is the same as using Tough Claws (or Adaptability) and Choice Band/Specs, versus Shell Smash.
The difference is 5%, or equal (in the case of Adaptability boosting 1/3, rather than 30%).
Ultimately while you could technically get away with Life Orb and Shell Smash, it’s a bigger risk when you have compromised your Defenses.
If your argument is: Shell Smash boosts 2 x while Quiver Dance boosts 1.5 x - then bear in mind this only really makes a difference when you use Simple, or boost with Shell Smash multiple times in a row, when comparing non-Life Orb Shell Smash to Life Orb Shift Gear / Quiver Dance.
Another boosting move not mentioned is Throat Spray + Clangorous Soul. Which provides an immediate +1 to all stats, and then another +1 to Spa for +2 SpA total. That also raises defenses, by 1.5 which more than makes up for lowering HP by 1/3.
Shell Smash without White Herb cuts both Defenses by 1/3 at -1 Def / SpD, so it looks equivalent, before you consider Clangorous Soul boosts Def / SpD.
Both can be used for Power Trip and Stored Power, even on Simple sets, as Throat Spray allows it to equal Shell Smash in terms of SpA boosts, without compromising Defense/SpD stats (now doubling Defenses and even more so that before making up for the HP Drop).
Lastly, Throat Spray can be used on Unburden sets to boost SpA and keep up with Shell Smash. Since Unburden is a one-time use, it doesn’t feel like a compromise to use Throat Spray since you are going to lose Unburden on switch outs, regardless.
So I think if you are using Life Orb that keeps Shift Gear Quiver Dance on par with Shell Smash, and Clangorous Soul + Throat Spray on par with Shell Smash.
Plus, getting switched into any chip damage like hazards compromised Focus Sash, so Life Orb is much more reliable on a Quiver Dance or Shift Gear, for consistence, than Focus Sash Shell Smash.
Lastly, like Clangorous Soul, Quiver Dance helps you Imposterproof thanks to the raised SpD. This was exemplified by Xerneas last generation.
So besides Speed, which is tied by Shift Gear - regardless, it can be really difficult to view non-Life Orb Shell Smash as much better unless you are using Simple, and even then Clangorous Soul + Throat Spray can be used to get a matching SpA boost.
I attribute the success of my RMT team more on the effectiveness of mixed sets (and other lures like final gambit) being able to break fur coat/ice scales pokemon rather than spamming Shell Smash itself.
For example, a Naughty +2 close combat from Reshiram OHKOs both Ice Scales Snorlax and Umbreon, and Fur Coat Melmetal struggles to deal with Kyurem-Black’s Earth Power and gets guarantee OHKO’d by +2 Blue Flare.
No other setup move can boost Attack and Special Attack to dangerous levels at the same time (bUt GroWth unDer sUn) and that has been overbearing for a lot of teams. I highly doubt any other boosting move can be used to the same degree of success.
Although I have been abusing Shell Smash since the beginning of the gen, I do support a Shell Smash ban and I honestly think limiting teams to 1 shell smash is an idea worth trying out.
