BH Balanced Hackmons

Rereading, I'm not 100% sure where I was going with the last couple of posts on Shed. I know what I was wanting to say, but I flopped that hard. Derp. I think perception is a big deal because people do not always vote rationally (remember people with reqs were voting Do Not Ban on suspects last gen only because they had wanted something else suspected instead and didn't get it) but I'm gonna step away from that angle.

So sorry for that, lemme try this again.

Sooo... like I've said a few times before, Shed's picked up some new tools this gen and lost a number of checks and counters. As such, I do think Shed is potentially worth looking at this time around. Again, a lot of reasons I opposed a suspect last time are vaporware now. As such, I'm not against a Shed suspect, although I'm not sure it's the most pressing issue despite how much I hate the bug and have hated the bug.

However, I do strongly object to a quick ban, especially one whose sole purpose is "we gotta do this now before a tournament! HURRY HURRY HURRY! I mean, rushing and pressuring permanent meta changes for the sake of one tournament is really not how we ought to decide things.

More importantly, I don't think Shedinja is quickban worthy because it falls flat compared to the power of the previous quick bans. You cannot spam 4-6 Shedinjas on a team and call it an easy win against a normal team. Shedinja is not dominating the ladder presence. Shedinja teams do not require the opponent to either bring either Shedinja teams or a team designed specifically for Shedinja teams that otherwise falls flat against a normal team. It doesn't have niche checks that serve almost no other purpose and struggle at their job anyway. It's not an overwhelming, all-consuming, utter meta-game defining thing.

You know what was though? Huge/Pure Power, Parental Bond, Extreme Evoboost, Comaphaze, CFZs, Water Bubble, Chatter, pre-mechanics-nerf Zacian-C, and Guerilla Tactics, which were all quick bans. Some were more ridiculous than others, like Parental Bond Cresselia solo-sweeping teams that weren't 6 PH Giratina or Chatter being the most optimal move on literally every moveset in existence. All of this crap was on nearly every team, spammed on pretty much every team, won games through pretty brain dead play and team building, required counter-teaming to reliably beat to the level that made the team more susceptible to normal strategies, and had an absolute vice grip on the entire damn meta.

Shedinja is pretty darn strong right now, possibly broken, but I don't think it's that level of of sheer stupid broken. After all, you need a "good Shedinja team" to use it to max potential, right? Quick ban candidates doesn't need a good team. It just needs a decently half-assed team so it can beat good, non-abusive teams without any effort. So far, both what I've witnessed from the games I've gotten, from a few room tours I've watched, and from anecdotal evidence given here it doesn't appear Shed is doing that.

We're coming out of the "figure out how all the new mechanics are actually coded and wait this meta-defining thing literally isn't possible" phase of the new gen. Which means we're entering the quick ban phase. As such, IMO, we should largely focus on all the most stupid absolute bullcrap broken stuff that you can play in a brain dead manner and trash most everyone else with. The moment we go to suspect tests is the moment we're, historically, we're out of quick banning. And there's one or two things, IMO, that probably deserve the quick ban before we go to suspecting.

As I said yesterday, I think Fish Beak absolutely qualify for quick ban and that's my focus. I'm planning, on my next day off, to attempt to prove it by trying to build and optimize a brain dead cancer Bolt Rend team (although I might get side-tracked trying the same thing with Double Iron Bash). I don't think people are cancering these moves hard enough to their full potential because they're being too gentlemenly. If all goes according to plan then I'm going to have people cussing me out on team preview just like they did when I helped abused ability spam, HP/PP spam, Parental Bond spam, Chatter spam, CFZ spam, Water Bubble spam, Assist spam, and all that other stuff.

If you disagree with me and think Shed is quick ban worthy? Then stop saying "well all the good players agree and-". No, stop, you're not convincing anyone Shed is that level of busted. Do what I'm planning on doing and prove it. Stop being a gentleman and stop being nice. Make teams that abuse the hell out of Shed and pull some low effort wins against skilled players. If you think Shedinja is cancer then go out there and try to spread that cancer into every corner of BH. If, in your mind, the meta needs saving from Shed then you're going to have to use it burn BH to the ground first.

If I got you hot under the collar? Good. Don't yell at me though. Instead get out there and prove me and everyone else who disagrees with you wrong. If you anti-Shed guys can turn the meta into Shed's cancer-ridden playground then I'll happily start supporting your quick ban. Otherwise we can wait for a suspect.
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
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I’ve mentioned my personal viewpoint before and it is mostly in agreement with a loser in all aspects bar the Bh Open point as I have always believed (and followed) that a decision should be made exactly when it is needed. I also do agree with the psychological aspect outlined by Rumors edit: though I’m not saying that’s a reason to not have a suspect should the need arises.
 
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GL Volkner

yes i got your letter, yes i'm doing better
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
I’ve mentioned my personal viewpoint before and it is mostly in agreement with a loser in all aspects bar the Bh Open point as I have always believed (and followed) that a decision should be made exactly when its needed. I also do agree with the psychological aspect outlined by Rumors.
So do you think we should hold off on a suspect even if we think it's needed because of a psychological analysis that's speculation at best (and other reasons if you have them)?

e: You have years of experience being a leader so you of all the council should know that not everyone will vote properly and that risk will always be there. If you're that worried about people misusing votes and if that's contributing to your worry, then just cancel Gen 8 tiering and abolish the council entirely because if you all are scared to suspect Shedinja at a time where the strongest argument against a suspect is because "Idk if it's broken or just rly rly good" and of all the people that posted, this argument also belongs to the one person on the do not qb/suspect side then you'll be hard pressed to find a time where a suspect gets more support and you might as well not have any at all. If anything the psychological part is probably why you should suspect it now, because we at least have an assurance that a lot of people want something done abt Shed and that should help with the psychological aspect you agree with fsr.
 
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E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I realize my post may have sounded contradictory, if the only reason is the uncertain psychological aspect then no I don’t see any reason to stall. We will have another discussion about it, but as loser mentioned before our more concerning targets atm are the fIsheous rend and beak moves, among others.

I also agree that as council our presence has been slightly limited the last couple weeks and it should pick back up where we’ll be more proactive in replying collectively.
 

GL Volkner

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is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
I agree Bolt Beak is concerning, but most of the community seems set on Shedinja so why not just do that? Why would the council take an entirely different route to what most of the people in this thread bar one or two people think should be next? It's really good you guys brought this up now instead of later but why was Bolt Beak brought up in the council chat in the first place as a primary target when it's predominantly been Shed discussion (and furthermore why hasn't any discussion on Shed happened?) You're all in charge of getting suspects going, not changing gears on us entirely and it's incredibly disrespectful to us as a community to hear that our discussion has been going in one ear and out the other, esp this close to the biggest individual tournament of the year for this meta =/

e: "and others"

What others???? What are we looking at for a suspect?? Surely you don't mean Mewtwo, as that was also in the post where he referenced Bolt Beak? This is what I mean when I ask for transparency, you have no reason to suppress what you guys are considering esp since it's different than what we've been discussing
 
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cityscapes

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im of course not qualified to come to my own conclusions on shed here, but what i see here is a fundamental issue with the way this game is structured.

it's easy to just wave this off as "council bad" (and to be fair, i dont really get the whole fishious rend/bolt beak thing when public opinion seems overwhelmingly in favor of dealing with shed instead) but the other side has a point here. ladder, the only way we have of consistently playing this game, has been dissociated with the concept of skillful play. there is no prestige to be had, and even in this new metagame the overwhelming majority of players on it are lacking in fundamentals. i played on the ladder for the entirety of generation 7, and 99% of the time shedinja wasn't nearly as threatening as it was in tournaments. this is probably why it wasn't banned in the suspect, too.

now, i don't mean to argue against a shedinja quickban here; as i said, it's not really my place. but at the same time, i'm unconvinced that a suspect based on only ladder results can succeed where its generation 7 counterpart failed. we love to criticize rumors for comparing two different metagames, but convincing players to vote ban where they voted dnb in generation 7 might mean the use of oversimplified if not outright bad arguments like "well boots exists now" where actual tournament results are lacking. the same thing happened with cfzs and water bubble last gen: while they were undoubtedly problematic elements and should have been removed, the arguments against them felt almost based on intuition and hasty comparisons to the incredibly nonspecific "criteria for a pokemon/ability/move ban" rather than actual results. with ladder as the only existing medium of play, proving even the most broken of elements as problematic can be harder than it seems.

i understand that at the beginning of each generation, the ladder has a bit more prestige than later on and sees more traffic from good players, so i might be overrepresenting this issue a bit. but i still think it's dumb that people can justify keeping almost anything in the meta under the argument that high level play in the metagame simply hasn't happened yet.

the solution here is most likely to have some kind of alternative environment where players are encouraged to succeed. as for possible ideas, some kind of invitational with public replays sounds neat. with less players to deal with the tournament will run much faster, and keeping out everyone else is justified by the presence of the more inclusive and prestigious bh open in a couple weeks. there might be issues with people not wanting to reveal their hidden teams or accurately represent what they think are the strongest things in the metagame so soon before a prestigious tournament, so i have an alternative option.

in my opinion adopting the "kokoloko method" to bh, or at least a mild variation of it, is a viable option here. historically bh has been very conservative about what it bans, most likely because of the public opinion and philosophy that the metagame should seek to ban as few things as possible. but this has only resulted in extremely slow tiering action for the sake of assuring everything that gets banned is broken without a doubt. given the current public consensus i think a more hasty tiering decision is appropriate here with a possible unsuspect later on, for the sake of preserving competitiveness for the entirety of the metagame's lifespan. the council's opinion to completely sacrifice bh open when everyone else is confident that shed is problematic tells me that this metagame has a problem with tiering policy.

i hope this post wasnt all over the place too much, thanks for reading and happy new year everyone
 
Clause and Ban List:
The banlist keeps the"Balanced" in Balanced Hackmons. Here's our interim banlist for the beta BH8 Ladder (this will eventually move to a BH8 Suspects and Bans Thread):

Pokemon
<Nothing to see here>

Moves
  • Chatter
  • OHKO Moves
Abilities
  • Wonder Guard
  • Pure / Huge Power
  • Parental Bond
  • Protean / Libero
  • Shadow Tag/Arena Trap
  • Moody
  • Water Bubble
  • Innards Out
  • Magnet Pull
  • Stakeout
  • Psychic Surge
  • Illusion
  • Contrary
  • Neutralizing Gas (Initial Banlist)
  • Gorilla Tactics
History:
DateAction
Nov 18, 2019[Gen 8] Balanced Hackmons goes live on PokemonShowdown! Initial Banlist Decision Breakdown here
Nov 24, 2019Creation of the Balanced Hackmons Council here
Nov 30, 2019Gorilla Tactics QuickBanned
Is Psychic Surge meant to be banned? I noticed it’s playable. Such as my match against MAMP. I ask bc it is listed in this OP as banned.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1035223275

Should this be discussed?

And... HAPPY NEW YEAR!

P.S. I just realized I am the first post of the New Year in PST. I hope this post moves our thread to a fun and positive discussion for 2020!

20 years of the new millennium! Wow!

Can’t wait for Lunar New Year next on January 25!
 
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Again, someone else is using previous Gens as an argument against quick banning Shedinja. As far as Gen 8 is concerned, Shed has been a part of it for two months now. I understand your point, but it's not particularly valid here. Experienced BH players like MAMP and GL Volkner have brought up the differences between this Gen and previous Gens that put it over the line.
 

GL Volkner

yes i got your letter, yes i'm doing better
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Can we get any updates on a possible suspect/qb on anything at all? What are you guys considering? I'd also love to hear what the council's take on Shedinja is as the only takes posted so far from council members have been personal. Would love to hear from you two too though Funbot28 Willdbeast

Can we get rid of this silence from you guys? We've decided what we want to suspect and you guys have been considering different things all along apparently, so can we get some talk going so we don't end up spending weeks of discussion on something you all weren't open to suspecting in the first place?

If my and others' persistence bugs you, then idk what to say. It's on you guys to be more active but we've seen 0 so far even though you all said you'd be more open a few days ago. When do you plan on releasing any information to us at all on what the next suspect/qb you guys are considering is?
 
I do agree with SL42's proposition of adopting the "kokoloko method". There are a number of things that, right now, rule the meta, and having to prepare for all of them is extremely constraining to teambuilding. Failing to prepare for them often results in a ridiculously uphill battle from team preview because counterplay to them can easily be defeated and then you just get purged hard. In my opinion, these are the possible qb's that could be considered. I would not be opposed to reintroducing them in slowly either as the metagame develops.

Shedinja: With the ability to run pads or boots and the lower viability and power of Ghost types this gen, Shedinja's environment is arguably more friendly to it. (I still think pads are better this gen since a lot of the threat level of Shedinja was being able to threaten to click Endeavor against any non-Ghost, then just pivot out on the forced switch. If one opts for boots, this threat level is a lot lower since many players are running Helmet and you have to scout for that, and can't safely click Endeavor until the helmet or helmet user is gone. Pain Split is of course a very solid option, ingendering a recover from switchins. Shedinja is still a great switchin to many attackers, severely hampering many choice users from functioning to their peak by threatening to invalidate their strongest moves. However, the amount of support required to keep the Shedinja alive doesn't leave as much room as one would like to cover the other big threats without resorting to hard stall.

Fisheous Rend, Bolt Beak and V-Create: Grouping all these moves together because they are all incredibly powerful 170+ BP moves, and their resists are few and far between and can easily be lured. Teams can easily be overwhelmed by teams that use multiples of these moves on extremely strong Pokemon, such as the infamous Band Intrepid Sword Zeraora + Banded Darm-GZ core, where Zera runs Bolt Beak/Fisehous Rend/U-Turn/Filler, and Darm runs V_Create / Icicle Crash / Earthquake / U-TUrn, and either Mold Breaker or Intrepid Sword as ability. Even bulky resists such as Toxapex and Seismatoad can't avoid the 2hKO from either of these attackers after Stealth Rock, and can easily be crippled by things like Switcheroo or if one of them runs Power Whip. THe best resist we have right now is FC Melmetal, but it is still forced to Recover if it switches into Zeraora's Bolt Beak and is 2hkoed easily by Darm-GZ's V-Create. The presence of all three of these moves, of different typings and with almost nothing that resists all three of them, is quite unbalanced.

You could make an argument to just ban Zeraora and Darm-GZ as they are the primary offenders. Zekrom would be an able replacement for Zeraora and Darm would probably end up replacing Darm-GZ since it has a respectable 140 base attack. The main difference would be their speed tiers, which are considerably lower. The silver lining is that Zekrom has high enough stats to go mixed, meaning it could just lure in Melmetal with Boomburst while still hitting hard physically with Bolt Beak, taking out Ground-Types with Ice Beam or Freeze Dry as well. They would of course be a lot more susceptible to revenge kills, so that's something to consider. Fisheous rend users are a bit harder to pin down, and it doesn't seem to be nearly as much of a problem since its strongest STAB users only have 135 attack. However, Rain teams with Fisheous Rend spam are definitely dangerous and can easily overload counters and resists if built well, thanks to the lack of Desolate land and Water Absorb.

Shell Smash: Combined with the above powerful moves, Shell Smash is extremely dangerous this gen, and has a lot more variance in viable options, which I will attempt to cover below. Defensive Pokemon are also a lot less bulky, meaning that it may be harder for them to take even neutral +0 hits from shell smashers if they're backed by STAB. ON the flipside, there is comparatively fewer APS mons running around, as most mons would rather boost themselves with their abilities than protect themselves from priority. This enables Prankster users to more freely run Topsy-Turvy and sometimes Encore. However, Encore is punished hard by Dynamax, since Dynamax overrides the Encore lock, and will just result in you losing to a mon that you let get at least two free turns of setup. With a Rock or Ice-type move, Shell Smash users also have more ways to catch Shedinja, and if they opt to run Photon Geyser to hit Shed, they can use the dynamax version to set up Psychic terrain to protect themselves from priority. With the extra powerful moves available to them, Shell Smash users don't have to use as many coverage moves, allowing disruptive sets with Substitute, Taunt, or Destiny Bond as a fourth move to rise in popularity as well. Destiny Bonding the Spectral Thief user stopping your Shell Smash team from sweeping is a great trade for the Smash user, of course. Getting a Substitute set up as they switch to their Prankster prevents moves like Topsy Turvy, Encore and Glare from working and also prevents Imposters from countersweeping. In other words, Shell Smash is considerably more free this gen, and it feels like an uphill battle preparing for all the variants of it.

Double Iron Bash: the lowest priority suspect right now by far is DIB. DIB creates situations where the victim is forced to switch into their Fur Coat or Prankster user in order to handle repeated DIB attacks. The move also has a 51% to flinch targets, which can easily screw over a slower switchin. The flipside is that it only has 8 PP, is punished severely by Rocky Helmet, loses hard to Prankster, and is also of a weak offensive typing in Steel.

The presence of these elements makes games feel a good deal matchup based, even if you know what sort of team is coming. And it's extremely difficult to prepare adequately for all of these elements at the same time, especially against people who run spam teams. This often shoehorns people into building low-creativity spam teams of their own, resulting in a rather mindless battle of who can punch the largest holes the quickest with their spam.


If I missed anything (and I probably have), let me know on my profile.
 

Chloe

camerupt
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I've been following this thread for the last few weeks, reading posts and enjoying the discourse. I haven't had the chance to play the metagame extensively yet (I've played more BH than council member Willdbeast, but that's irrelevant), so I'll avoid making any statements about what's unhealthy or anything like that. I just wanted to emphasise how this standstill and lack of action is horrendous and unjustifiable for a permanent ladder OM.

You have the players who make this tier competitive, the people who invest the most time into this metagame, the players who make this metagame such an enjoyable time, the MAMPs, the GL Volkners, the Chesskings, the whoever elses telling you that Shedinja is an issue within the current metagame, and that action should be taken on it, but you as a council are yet to do anything. You're yet to make any sufficient statement on the issue.

A council is supposed to represent the general playerbase, hold opinions that don't go against every single top player in the metagame, but instead we've seen one "I want to see it used in a tour lol" and "I agree with this post 100% except for the content of the post??". Then you state you want to take action on Bolt Beak and Fishious Rend, aspects of the metagame that the majority of players acknowledge as not as big an issue as Shedinja? I don't understand any of this logic. It makes the council look messy, unknowledgeable and unorganised.

There's also a point to be made about the activity of the council. You make all the big decisions within the meta, yet only one of you (maybe two if I'm generous) actively plays the metagame. Why is this happening? This is arguably worse than the inactive spell you had last generation Flint, because at least you'd see discussion, and later suspect it. Don't leave it for a private circlejerk to decide on and never arrive on a decision. In fact, it's just strange that you value council and your own opinion as above all, when in reality it's not. You should be listening to the community, you should be valuing the posts within this thread.

I know I'm not the only one that feels this way too. SL42/Gurpreet, someone who's very vocally advocated against Shedinja being banned last gen, finds it weird that you're stating Bolt Beak and Fishious Rend are more important targets, when the vast majority of players are asking for action on Shedinja. You don't value the community's input at all, do you? You're having parallel discussions, without even explaining how you're arriving at any decisions. This dynamic is a joke.

This is just incredibly disappointing. I know you are all better than this, this council isn't working out and it's setting a very dangerous image of what's yet to come for Gen 8 BH.
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Well we had a response just about ready but I think it will not fit what's being asked now. I will make an official response myself.

Over the last couple weeks, we had discussed the following topics in the council:
- Shedinja (as per feedback from here and in private)
- Fishious Rend and Bolt Beak (henceforth referred to as Fossil Speed Moves or FSMs - thanks funbot)
- Double Iron Bash
- Dynamaxing

Apart from this, we discussed a number of things for our planned launch of the Central Resources including a preliminary VR.

Our determination was (unanimously) that we think Shedinja needed more time and that i's been a little hyped is because we felt the FSMs were pretty dominating. FSMs alongside V-Create began making defensive counterplay pretty difficult, a sentiment we had felt and seen and heard from other players. First we wanted to bring our focus here. Though we did not feel Shedinja was necessary for action yet, we were ready to proceed to it based on strong community feedback.

Double Iron Bash remains a concern purely because of its uncompetitive nature though we put it on lower priority, and we monitored what was going on with Dynamaxing in the official tiers and determined that BH seems to be one of the few places that it can be handled purely due to access of specific status moves and mons.

This should cover concerns of transparency. This is what we planned on posting. Funbot and I had personally worked out its phrasing over the last three days and had it ready. For proof I can share the draft of it with a timestamp if required. We would like to have a suspect of the FSMs and then proceed with a Shedinja suspect.

---

Now, I also wish to address some of the other comments. I am going to ignore the unnecessary rudeness and reductive attitude towards our responses. Let me go back to an argument that one poster had towards for the creation of the BH Council over the method I previously employed last gen - the use of suspect polls, itself was an answer to feedback I received the generation prior on needing to be better in tune with the community:
I also strongly disagree with the current suspect poll system that has been used in BH late in the generation. BH has a Suspect and Bans thread to discuss what should be suspected, and should be more than enough to decide on suspects. Tier Leaders should be able to decide what is or isn't suspect worthy, and I think that leaving the decision of what to suspect with these polls entirely up to the community is a huge mistake. I think with a council in place, it would negate the pressure on a sole leader to make decisions, while still having educated members deciding what should be suspected.
Funbot28, Willdbeast have proven their worth over the last generation and a loser has been a great addition so I would definitely view them as educated members with a grasp of the metagame. Though our activity may fluctuate in the short term, I admit, we remain consistently involved.

So why try to generate this "us vs them" mentality? Why try to manufacture outrage that we are trying to "disrespect" the community by making a decision? I don't recall that "deciding what should be suspected" means we should just agree to everything here, as posters here who have been involved in other councils know about. As council we want to have a two way relationship with the community - that means that we will base our decisions on community feedback but also that the community has to work with us if we would like to make a certain decision. Though we did not personally agree on a Shedinja suspect we are ready to go forward with one as per the feedback given in the thread - after at least discussing our plan for the FSMs.

The accusation of the council being a "circlejerk" is by definition ridiculous; we are doing exactly what we should do as per our right and responsibility as council i.e. steering where we feel the metagame should go. And it was a lot faster than using suspect polls since we were able to decide in a few days. If you making a personal accusation against me, I did not "leave anything for" anyone since we all participated in the conversation and we were all present - including me.

I think by now I have earned the right to say that I take constructive criticism and try to apply to it however I can. We have thought of some ideas to help the transparency issue (I thought of making a dedicated Council Corner post that will be regularly updated so we don't have to keep posting - similar to what Funbot mentioned Stabmons once had with on the radar). A circle jerk would be suggesting that we shouldnt engage in suspects because the supposed "competent players" already decided for us, and they're the one who are going to get reqs anyway. I said this in last gen's thread - I don't want to instill a feeling of elitism. Suspects reqs are where we decide where the competent players are.

Also based on community feedback, we are planning on making some changes to council personnel. This includes but is not limited to: Willdbeast agreeing to become more involved in a resources team specifically rather than the decision making council and; my unofficial announcement that an upcoming Shedinja suspect will be my last action as a decision making council member and I shall be stepping down from my role forthwith. I will also be involved in the resources and of course my experience and knowledge will be available to the future council as they see fit. I will elaborate on this later on with a more formal announcement.
 

GL Volkner

yes i got your letter, yes i'm doing better
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Well we had a response just about ready but I think it will not fit what's being asked now. I will make an official response myself.

Over the last couple weeks, we had discussed the following topics in the council:
- Shedinja (as per feedback from here and in private)
- Fishious Rend and Bolt Beak (henceforth referred to as Fossil Speed Moves or FSMs - thanks funbot)
- Double Iron Bash
- Dynamaxing

Apart from this, we discussed a number of things for our planned launch of the Central Resources including a preliminary VR.

Our determination was (unanimously) that we think Shedinja needed more time and that i's been a little hyped is because we felt the FSMs were pretty dominating. FSMs alongside V-Create began making defensive counterplay pretty difficult, a sentiment we had felt and seen and heard from other players. First we wanted to bring our focus here. Though we did not feel Shedinja was necessary for action yet, we were ready to proceed to it based on strong community feedback.

Double Iron Bash remains a concern purely because of its uncompetitive nature though we put it on lower priority, and we monitored what was going on with Dynamaxing in the official tiers and determined that BH seems to be one of the few places that it can be handled purely due to access of specific status moves and mons.

This should cover concerns of transparency. This is what we planned on posting. Funbot and I had personally worked out its phrasing over the last three days and had it ready. For proof I can share the draft of it with a timestamp if required. We would like to have a suspect of the FSMs and then proceed with a Shedinja suspect.

---

Now, I also wish to address some of the other comments. I am going to ignore the unnecessary rudeness and reductive attitude towards our responses. Let me go back to an argument that one poster had towards for the creation of the BH Council over the method I previously employed last gen - the use of suspect polls, itself was an answer to feedback I received the generation prior on needing to be better in tune with the community:

Funbot28, Willdbeast have proven their worth over the last generation and a loser has been a great addition so I would definitely view them as educated members with a grasp of the metagame. Though our activity may fluctuate in the short term, I admit, we remain consistently involved.

So why try to generate this "us vs them" mentality? Why try to manufacture outrage that we are trying to "disrespect" the community by making a decision? I don't recall that "deciding what should be suspected" means we should just agree to everything here, as posters here who have been involved in other councils know about. As council we want to have a two way relationship with the community - that means that we will base our decisions on community feedback but also that the community has to work with us if we would like to make a certain decision. Though we did not personally agree on a Shedinja suspect we are ready to go forward with one as per the feedback given in the thread - after at least discussing our plan for the FSMs.

The accusation of the council being a "circlejerk" is by definition ridiculous; we are doing exactly what we should do as per our right and responsibility as council i.e. steering where we feel the metagame should go. And it was a lot faster than using suspect polls since we were able to decide in a few days. If you making a personal accusation against me, I did not "leave anything for" anyone since we all participated in the conversation and we were all present - including me.

I think by now I have earned the right to say that I take constructive criticism and try to apply to it however I can. We have thought of some ideas to help the transparency issue (I thought of making a dedicated Council Corner post that will be regularly updated so we don't have to keep posting - similar to what Funbot mentioned Stabmons once had with on the radar). A circle jerk would be suggesting that we shouldnt engage in suspects because the supposed "competent players" already decided for us, and they're the one who are going to get reqs anyway. I said this in last gen's thread - I don't want to instill a feeling of elitism. Suspects reqs are where we decide where the competent players are.

Also based on community feedback, we are planning on making some changes to council personnel. This includes but is not limited to: Willdbeast agreeing to become more involved in a resources team specifically rather than the decision making council and; my unofficial announcement that an upcoming Shedinja suspect will be my last action as a decision making council member and I shall be stepping down from my role forthwith. I will also be involved in the resources and of course my experience and knowledge will be available to the future council as they see fit. I will elaborate on this later on with a more formal announcement.
You as council aren't meant to decide what to suspect against the community's wishes. You're meant to see and discuss alongside the community as to what the next best course of action is and so far you all have been uninvolved as hell. Fix that and re-evaluate the suspects you wish to go forward with. If you want to suspect those then do a full explanation of why just like anybody else. Do a full explanation of why you don't want Shedinja suspected right now. Your status as council doesn't give you the right to not supply rationale and change the course of the meta against rationale that we've spent weeks building up.

Discussing FSMs behind closed doors is disrespectful to the community. For one, you're denying us much influence over the decision. For another, you're disregarding what we've been discussing for weeks in favor of what a group of 4 people with questionable activity have decided. That's disrespectful no matter how you frame it. You can try and take the high road, but not allowing us to partake in this discussion is disrespectful as high hell and I'm disappointed that just a month of being council has made you all completely forget what it's like to be a player.

You don't want to instill a feeling of elitism? Well when I had to hear second hand what your plans were because you all couldn't be bothered to discuss it on thread, I certainly didn't get that impression and I'm sure others would agree. What you are doing right now, discussing suspects behind closed doors in favor of an open discussion with the community, absolutely is elitist so you should get your beliefs and actions in line because I'm getting two different vibes here.

Your responsibility as a council is to steer the metagame. However, that does not mean excluding players from your decision making process. You are not that powerful as a council and you never will be. Forcing FSMs on us with no prior warning after we've already decided we'd like to take action on Shedinja is ridiculous. And now what - you want to wait for us to decide what to do with FSMs, then proceed with that and THEN proceed with a Shedinja suspect when we already know we want one? Literally just because you guys as council said so? Slow the fuck down. You all have no right to put a stop to our discussion just because you all want something else. You all do not outrank the community, you are a part of it, so act like it.
 
Completely agree with volkner, although I actually still think Shed should be suspected later. You as council should be the leading of the community, but the decisions should be made by the public, the community. You can’t just make decisions on ur choice, like if we don’t exist what’s the point of you existing as council. It’s democracy right? Or are you running communism? If so then I’ll just quit
 
I don't even feel like clicking that battle button under BH because of the Shedinja cancer. It walls an entire carefully engineered and well tested team. You would say, "Just use status, rocky helmet, etc."
Why would someone expect you to waste precious moveslots and item slots for a 1 HP bug which can avoid all of those options except status, maybe? Rocky Helmet, Shedinja can use non-contact moves like Pain Split and Spirit Shackle. Status, Shedinja could use Protective Pads instead of Heavy-Duty Boots. Who knows? It would just waste another PP from the status move. Not to mention that none of the damaging status moves are 100% accurate. One miss and it Endeavors you and finishes you with Extreme Speed. Or do you guys want us to use No Guard for status moves as well?

I agree with the point that it needs a suspect test, but it is too late now. Besides that, the community has already been unofficially testing this thing ever since it became a thing. No offense to anyone but Shedinja is pure cancer and should be banned from this broken meta.
 

Chloe

camerupt
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Hey, thank you E4 Flint for finally giving the community some transparency into the decisions of the council. I appreciate that you're willing to do that and I apologise if you found my post excessively abrasive in any way. I do, for the most part, stand by that post though; especially with all the times I stated that you're not valuing community input enough, because your post here seems to provide further evidence for this. Before I start this post, I implore anyone who hasn't already to read my prior post and then Flint's post to ensure I'm not misrepresenting his arguments.

Our determination was (unanimously) that we think Shedinja needed more time and that it's been a little hyped is because we felt the Flying Spaghetti Monsters were pretty dominating. FSMs alongside V-Create began making defensive counterplay pretty difficult, a sentiment we had felt and seen and heard from other players. First we wanted to bring our focus here. Though we did not feel Shedinja was necessary for action yet, we were ready to proceed to it based on strong community feedback.
The problem I have with you suspecting FSMs, (other than naming them that, not everything needs an acronym;) is that this decision contradicts the pages of community discussion on Shedinja, an unarguably problematic element. The community seems to believe that Shedinja is a priority to suspect testing Bolt Beak and Fishious Rend. If you really believe the council is right, then you can and should attempt to sway the community with posts about why you believe this aspect is more problematic than Shedinja, and if your points have merit and substance, the general populous may start to see your reasoning. This is how to run a successful council and metagame.

Funbot28, Willdbeast have proven their worth over the last generation and a loser has been a great addition so I would definitely view them as educated members with a grasp of the metagame. Though our activity may fluctuate in the short term, I admit, we remain consistently involved.

So why try to generate this "us vs them" mentality? Why try to manufacture outrage that we are trying to "disrespect" the community by making a decision? I don't recall that "deciding what should be suspected" means we should just agree to everything here, as posters here who have been involved in other councils know about. As council we want to have a two way relationship with the community - that means that we will base our decisions on community feedback but also that the community has to work with us if we would like to make a certain decision. Though we did not personally agree on a Shedinja suspect we are ready to go forward with one as per the feedback given in the thread - after at least discussing our plan for the FSMs.
I'll skip the decision of council members, as for one I'm not qualified to tell you who should be council in a metagame I don't play, and secondly you have your own standards for activity. I'd like to jump to the second paragraph as it directly ties into my last point. I am not generating this "us vs them" mentality, you are. By going against the community, by keeping them excluded from the decision process, by making your own decisions independent from the remainder of the playerbase. You should keep people in the loop, keep them engaged with what's happening. A council is not supposed to make decisions independent from the community, but it seems as if that's what you believe is the case. You're right in saying you don't have to agree with everything here, but no one on the council has made an effort to debate the possibility of a Shedinja suspect test. The council has been secluded in their own chat, while the rest of the community is supposed to wonder about what could possibly be on the table.

The accusation of the council being a "circlejerk" is by definition ridiculous; we are doing exactly what we should do as per our right and responsibility as council i.e. steering where we feel the metagame should go. And it was a lot faster than using suspect polls since we were able to decide in a few days. If you making a personal accusation against me, I did not "leave anything for" anyone since we all participated in the conversation and we were all present - including me.
Sorry if circlejerk is a controversial term, you can use whatever term you'd prefer, it doesn't matter to me. I think a lot of the issues boil down to you as a leader not really having much involvement in the community over recent times. You barely play the metagame anymore, yet you're above the community making decisions that impact everyone. It's the same reason a lot of us are weary of inactive players being council. If you're going to be making such important decisions, shouldn't you have more experience in the metagame you're hosting? If you need more time to get adapted to the metagame, it's not necessarily a bad thing to allow more community input into your decisions. You as a leader should have no issue with allowing the community to decide upon the outcome of something prolific players have repeatedly deemed problematic.

I think by now I have earned the right to say that I take constructive criticism and try to apply to it however I can. We have thought of some ideas to help the transparency issue (I thought of making a dedicated Council Corner post that will be regularly updated so we don't have to keep posting - similar to what Funbot mentioned Stabmons once had with on the radar). A circle jerk would be suggesting that we shouldnt engage in suspects because the supposed "competent players" already decided for us, and they're the one who are going to get reqs anyway. I said this in last gen's thread - I don't want to instill a feeling of elitism. Suspects reqs are where we decide where the competent players are.
Just get more involved in discussion and the playing of the metagame. There's no need for a dedicated "Council Corner", the council should be regularly commenting in the thread. Get involved with the community more. If you're that worried about this "us vs them" mentality that you believe I've created, despite it being here long before my post, then work on that. Work on involving the community more. I believe councils in OMs are inherently a good thing, but this is not how to go about having one. Last generation, albeit slow with the numerous suspect polls, had the community deciding what needed to go and I'd say that it was a much better system than one active player and three onlookers deciding everything. You just need to be more transparent, get involved more and be willing to hear out the community. This would solve so much.

Also based on community feedback, we are planning on making some changes to council personnel. This includes but is not limited to: Willdbeast agreeing to become more involved in a resources team specifically rather than the decision making council and; my unofficial announcement that an upcoming Shedinja suspect will be my last action as a decision making council member and I shall be stepping down from my role forthwith. I will also be involved in the resources and of course my experience and knowledge will be available to the future council as they see fit. I will elaborate on this later on with a more formal announcement.
I don't personally think someone who hasn't played the metagame at all should be handling resources. He's played like three games, it's a bit much to have him handling a VR. As for the other half of this paragraph, I think it would be very detrimental if you stepped down. I think you're ultimately a good thing for the BH community, and I don't see anyone really filling your shoes. If you played more and got involved with the community more, I think a lot more people would see you as a really good tier leader. It's just as things stand, you don't really interact with the community as much as you probably should, and a lot of people see you as some scary figure that just makes decisions, rather than someone they can actually talk to about the metagame.

Hope this helped clear things up from my previous post.
 
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The Immortal

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Other Metas Leader
I don't think some of these posts are fair. A council isn't a brainless group that observes what the community wants banned. A council brings their own knowledge and opinions. If the purpose of the council was figuring out only what the community wanted then it'd be the most active/unbiased people across PS/Discord/here rather than experienced BH players. The community was unhappy with the previous process of gathering their opinions through suspect polls and making decisions they voted on. The community wanted a council. This is a council.

As far as I can tell, the council unanimously does not believe Shedinja should be tested. The problem here is not that but rather that the council hasn't provided good explanation of why they believe Shedinja shouldn't be suspected. No, the council is not dead. Yes, they play Sw/Sh BH. And I can tell you they discussed Shedinja, as well as the other things Flint mentions. I think y'all need to give them a break as communication is still a work in progress, both within the council and from the council to the community. Forcing them to make a decision they don't agree with sets a bad precedent for the future of BH and devalues the entire purpose of a council.

With that said, I agree that we need to see more communication from the council on why Shedinja shouldn't be tested at this point in time. Then the community can counter-argue, and so forth... leading to a decision everyone can understand.
 

GL Volkner

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Yeah please don't step down lol
I don't think some of these posts are fair. A council isn't a brainless group that observes what the community wants banned. A council brings their own knowledge and opinions. If the purpose of the council was figuring out only what the community wanted then it'd be the most active/unbiased people across PS/Discord/here rather than experienced BH players. The community was unhappy with the previous process of gathering their opinions through suspect polls and making decisions they voted on. The community wanted a council. This is a council.

As far as I can tell, the council unanimously does not believe Shedinja should be tested. The problem here is not that but rather that the council hasn't provided good explanation of why they don't believe Shedinja should be suspected. No, the council is not dead. Yes, they play Sw/Sh BH. And I can tell you they discussed Shedinja, as well as the other things Flint mentions. I think y'all need to give them a break as communication is still a work in progress, both within the council and from the council to the community. Forcing them to make a decision they don't agree with sets a bad precedent for the future of BH and devalues the entire purpose of a council.

With that said, I agree that we need to see more communication from the council on why Shedinja shouldn't be tested at this point in time. Then the community can counter-discuss, and so forth... leading to a decision everyone can understand.
Really - They believe Shedinja is a healthy and balanced component and that we're all wrong? Because that's what not wanting a suspect means. A council can decide if it doesn't want a ban, but denying us the prospect of even looking at something we actively do not want in the metagame without rationale is closeminded as fuck. Yes, a council can decide to steer the metagame in a different direction, but declining weeks of rationale on the ground that it's overhyped (two months into the meta LOL) is just dumb and shoving their alternative decision down our throats is even dumber. I don't think for a second that they've earned a break because of the astoundingly poor showing so far, I think they're getting exactly what they've earned.

We wouldn't be forcing anything if they'd just talk to us about why. But they haven't. They don't have the right to call our weeks of rationale overhyped, say nothing else, then forcefully turn our heads to FSMs, again with no rationale. The council has the right to make their own decisions but they have no right to be so full of themselves that they are able to do so without rationale.

Since you say all of the council plays SWSH BH, how many games of SWSH BH have Flint and Will played and when have they played? What alts do they ladder on?

Btw @community I told you a council would suck and you didn't listen. Though admittedly I didn't think it'd be this bad

Also Willdbeast stop being a meme and start being a good council member pls
 
After chatting on Discord with people who are actively playing the meta, I have reached a few conclusions:

1. a new metagame, especially one so shaken up by the removal of many key Pokemon and the addition of several significant items and moves, cannot afford to have an inactive or a passive council. We have only seen occasional activity from single council members who speak for the entirity of the council as if they were a single entity. Having the council members discussing about metagame trends can only be good, and, contrary to what some may believe, does not tarnish the image of the council as a united front. I would argue that well-thought out arguments would lead to council decisions that can be better trusted or at, at least, understood.

2. This council is, as far as we know, riddled with inactivity. Whether they're just not playing on well-known accounts (E4 Flint and Will), or are stretched way too thin (Funbot28), it would be best for both themselves and the metagame if they gave their council spots to people who were more invested. If they don't have interest in playing or are too busy to do so, why stress out about running it? I understand that they are doing their best while fulfilling other obligations, but it seems like a thankless task that others could be dealing with instead. An active council is crucial to a healthy metagame. Action should be taken sooner rather than later, and it will require some people to step up. There are plenty of active, educated, respected posters in this thread; why not add one or two of them to the council?
 
Long Shedinja post ahead!

I've finally reached 1500+ with my fresh alt, BlessYouChild. But for once I had a goal in mind outside of personal satisfaction; I needed to see for myself just how much Shedinja could sway a game, particularly if you built a team around it. Up until I got to about 1430, I actually used 2 Shedinjas, one with Boots and the other with Goggles. The idea was that the item makes non-moldy and status based checks different for each Shed, plus if you die to an unexpected moldy move or wisp/toxic then you still have a backup.
Shedinja @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 Atk
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Pain Split
- Spirit Shackle
- Toxic
- Teleport

Shedinja @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Pain Split
- Spirit Shackle
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock

Melmetal @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Anchor Shot
- Parting Shot
- Wish
- Rapid Spin

Umbreon @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Foul Play
- Soft-Boiled
- Aromatherapy

Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlwind
- Parting Shot
- Aromatherapy
- Roost

Zekrom @ Dragon Memory
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Bolt Beak
- V-create
- Shift Gear

Umbreon as a Geyser/Photon resist plus Bounce for status aimed at Shed (including imposters since they have Toxic) and Melmetal for Sunsteel/Photon and general support. Wob to scout for checks and sometimes counter-sweep, and Zekrom as a wincon outside of Shed. Both Sheds use Toxic to punish switch ins and deal with mirrors.
I'm going to be upfront: this wasn't a super well thought out team. I didn't think about using imposter proofed teammates and the synergies they'd provide (nothing on the team walls Imposters that transform into Zekrom). Just wanted to cover the basics of what support Shed needs. I still managed to perform decently well with this team up until I got past the 1400s.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1039697463
I honestly am really bad at remembering to keep replays but here's one with this team. Shedinja managed to put a ton of pressure on this guy and in this case a lot of support wasn't too necessary.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1039274326
Low ladder but I thought it was cute that I sacked Boots Shed because his team was hail based and Goggles Shed put more work. Also was using TTar but I dropped it maybe 1 game after cause I wanted something with less weaknesses. Zekrom really puts in massive work here.
The team was neat and all but once I got past the 1400s I realized that double Shedinja cannot work in practice against smarter players. So Shed isn't broken in the same way pre-nerf Zacian and Zamazenta were. You can't just put a bunch of Shedinja and win. If they have multiple moldy moves, you will most likely lose. Rather, you need to build a team to make it hard to kill your one Shedinja and eventually pave the way for Shedinja to come in and declare victory. This version in particular lost to Kyurem W with a moldy move unless I could find an opening to sweep with Zekrom, as well as setup sweepers with moldy moves.
Shedinja @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 Atk
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Pain Split
- Spirit Shackle
- Toxic
- Teleport

Darmanitan-Zen @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lava Plume
- Nature Power
- Haze
- Roost

Melmetal @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Sunsteel Strike
- Parting Shot
- Wish
- Court Change

Umbreon @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Soft-Boiled
- Aromatherapy

Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlwind
- Parting Shot
- Aromatherapy
- Roost

Zekrom @ Dragon Memory
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Bolt Beak
- V-create
- Shift Gear

Same stuff except Darm is there to deal with Kyu W better, as well as be another switch in to Sunsteel/Photon and crucially to deal with setup sweepers that Shed dies to. It also helps against Zekrom Imposters thanks to Prankster working well vs Bolt Beak. Also replaced Foul Play on Umbreon with Wisp to help vs opposing Sheds, which became very common at higher ladder.
Slightly better team synergy here but largely the same. Wob became a lot more important to scout. Again, not the greatest team, but that's what surprised me though. I was using a shoddily crafted team carried mainly by Zekrom and Shedinja and managed to get 45/8 with 84% GXE. I don't usually share teams unless I know they're good, which I don't believe this is. Yet I performed well with it. It really does make me feel like Shedinja is a problem. Several people had to forfeit if I got rid of their answer(s) to Shed because if you don't have every Pokemon carry an answer, it will find an opportunity at some point. I also think Bolt Beak is a problem, especially with Mold Breaker, Intepid Sword, and Electric Surge or ES+Surge Surfer. There's almost nothing that switches into it safely at +1 except for ground types and x4 resists, and with MB you can't even rely on Fur Coat or Unaware. I got tons of sweeps with Zekrom, and honestly this is my new favorite set for him. I still wouldve probably been better off using my old Galvanize one just so Shed can Improof him. I don't have the replays but there were games where it came down to just Shedinja and Umbreon or Melmetal vs 3 or 4 Pokemon and I managed to pull a victory by either stalling with Shed and switching in and out, or just using Shed to kill everything while using Umbreon/Melmetal to absorb hits that'd kill Shed, and using Toxic on switch to deal with the threats to it. I beat rrrgggg a couple times like this, and I know he's pretty high on the ladder. Plus, there were so. many. Shedinja teams on the ladder. Who could blame them? Shed is an Improofer, a hazard setter, hazard remover, slow pivot, hard wall, stall wincon, and breaker depending on the moveset. Many times it takes on 4 or 5 of these roles at once and does them all effectively. I'm no top player but even I can see Shedinja has a strong grip on the meta. No Kyu W would ever run Moongeist as coverage and yet multiple people did so just for Shed. Same for Sunsteel on Zekrom. Terrible coverage but necessary for Shed. It's the only Pokemon that demands coverage solely for it. Toxic and Wisp are probably the only moves any Pokemon can run that wouldn't be subpar vs other Pokemon. Of course Sunsteel on steels isn't bad but as coverage they aren't good. I think at least considering a suspect would be a good idea.

On a side note, Regenerator Melmetal is the only pokemon I think uses Regenerator viably. Finally I can use Regenerator without looking like a fool lol. Wish+Parting Shot came up so many times to give Zekrom or Wob second and third chances. Don't underestimate!

Edit: SIDE side note: forgot to mention that I don't think the council is BAD for not wanting to suspect Shedinja, but if we consider the council as a governing body meant to lead and guide with the people's best interest, then ignoring the wishes of everyone is just not a good look. I don't want to bash anyone and yeah some of the comments have been harsh, but really if you truly are listening to what everyone wants and feels is important and you want the process to be democratic and fair for us all, you will suspect things that we feel are pressing, including Shedinja or provide good reason as to why you won't. That's all, with all due respect.
 
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