BH Balanced Hackmons

alright so obligatory "i havent played gen 8 bh yet" but OM! i read your posts last gen and you don't seem to have changed much so i'm just gonna post here.

i do not mean to be degrading with this post, instead i will simply attempt to explain what's going on.

first of all, just because i haven't used a set doesn't mean i can't tell if it's good or bad. for example:

GOD HIMSELF!!11!1!! (Arceus) @ Leftovers
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Cosmic Power
- Recover
- Stored Power
- Power Trip

i've never used this set myself, but even without that i can tell that it's bad. i've faced it (and every defense-boosting set) too many times on low ladder and it's never done anything of note. i am unconvinced that it can accomplish anything at all against any decent team. all it does is not die for a while, and in bh you need to do much more than that to win.

now, on to the main part of my post. this is the important part, so i would like you to read this.

the sets you use, like all those imprison sweepers and the drum slaking from last gen, are gimmicks.

let me just get this out there right away, there's nothing wrong with using gimmicks. they have potential to work in high level play and sometimes good players do make use of them. for example, i recall sugarhigh making use of a team with unburden drum dusk mane + refrigerate espeed drum mmx. that was a cool team.

the problem arises when you limit yourself to only using gimmicks rather than making use of fundamentals. this is probably because you'd like to give yourself a higher chance of beating the "good players" out there, but i think it has hurt both your overall consistency and your ability to grow as a player.

gimmicks are, at their core, inconsistent. teams built on fundamentals rely on removing options from their opponent, while the gimmicks assume these options are not there in the first place, due to player inexperience or matchup. if the opponent sees what's coming and the matchup isn't horrible, they can more than likely form a plan to avoid losing to it.

now, your fundamental skill isn't terrible, otherwise you wouldn't be beating anyone in the first place. but it still has a long way to go if you want to be really good. i would recommend building and using teams that have the goal of improving the overall position, not just winning the game in the fastest way possible. i think you will see much more consistency and potential growth if your main ways of winning don't hinge on a single turn going the way you want it to.
I feel like I did that with my Dynamax Kyurem-White set. It is self-sufficient and uses Dynamax as a lead to avoid taking hits from hazards, or after anything has set up, and if something sets-up or straight-up attacks, it has doubled the HP to survive hits better, and has immediate protections like Psychic Terrain, and the +Speed boost so it can go first (hitting first with Max Flying as you Dynamax, then being 1st next turn using another Max move).

It also negates the issues of using Blue Flare over Earth Power when it comes to hitting things like Toxapex, due to its select Psychic coverage, and fully makes use of the weather with the Hail to benefit Blizzard after the Dynamax wears off. Having Photon/Hail also means it can trump Shedinja without having to switch out in either form, and of course, break Sashes. This lead has served me well, and is likely the best offensive set I have posted thus far in this thread.

Regarding my other Kyurem-White set, I have also seen it useful, but I do own its a mono set b/c I couldn't fit coverage without giving up Imprison Haze. Again, if I only posted a standard Shell Smash set, people would say "but Prankster Haze", so that's why I thought of it. It is legit taking feedback from the post reply to my Bisharp set about Prankster Haze. So I used that reply as constructive input to prevent the same critique. It's like no matter what I post it's not good enough. A non-mono sweeper isn't good, an anti-Imposter/Hazer isn't good. What's left?

Darmanitan-Zen Mode has been something I have truly tested, and proved it isn't a gimmick, and that is because it is simply that good. it doesn't fear hazards with Heavy Duty Boots, doesn't fear burns from Imposter, and can legit threaten Steels with STAB. I don't think this Pokemon, or the sets of Fur Coat, or Ice Scales are gimmicks. At the very least, it serves as a good Imposterproof for the cover legends, especially if you are using Body Press / Close Combat, Play Rough, Sunsteel Strike, etc. as it resists their STABs and can force them out, while Toxapex has to fear the more common Bolt Beak, and doesn't have anything to scare them with for actual damage.

It is much easier to accept criticism as fair and constructive, when I know people acknowledge the posts I made, which have been good. It doesn't seem accurate, and that's why I said it was an exaggeration, for seeing someone above say that my posts were not good, as if nothing was ever helpful.

Darmanitan-Z might have been niche last gen, but it was never a gimmick, and this generation it has only improved. I deserve credit for promoting legitimate sets. Not everything is a gimmick.

I also do accept criticism from others, like the feedback on my gimmicky Prankster Zekrom. Yes, dragons can switch in if I lack Dragon Darts over Fishous Rend, and yes Dazzling, and Priority -Ate Extreme Speeds do a number on it, and I owned that in my replies to it. See here:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons.3656408/page-5#post-8318915

Here when I slightly defend it, I still own it's failures, even ones not directly asked about, like -Ate Speed:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons.3656408/page-5#post-8319105

If you haven't read my posts, please see how I literally try to cover my bases, my posts are rarely short, I cover what typically checks it, I always try to show damage calculations, and/or replays, I also sometimes throw in teammates so people know what either checks it for Imposterproofing, or what works as a general ally (like slow pivoting).

Some of the critique comes off as if I just thought of a set on the spot, posted it with zero context, and ignores all of the replays, calculations, and attention to detail in the calculations.

I don't necessarily defend all of my stuff, but what I have been doing in this recent set of posts, is defending the actual effort I put into it. I don't have short posts, and thats because I try to do what I can to show I have thought of counterarguments, before they are brought up.

I don't feel I ever get credit for agreeing and owning that it has flaws. I don't wish to argue, especially about the legitimacy, I have legit tried to show, rather than just tell. It's not like I only post a set and don't explain it. That wouldn't be good.

Here is an example post of trying to help someone:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons.3656408/page-2#post-8292114

I cover the damage, the reasons per moveslot, and go over why it matters to consider replacing some of their options. I don't suggest something and act like it is self-explanatory, I truly care. (This was back when the PS! mechanics treated moves that were originally Normal as Normal under Dynamax).

Also, in spite of people's bias against me, I have been supportive of their sets:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons.3656408/page-3#post-8303345

I am certainly positive, and try to encourage others.

Also, here is the original Kyurem-White set I thought was more than a gimmick:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons.3656408/page-4#post-8307422
 
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A quick warning before a new player takes this seriously, I don't play this meta and just looked at what seems to be a statistically good set based on what I found. If people find that I'm doing what OM! did, (As in dumping all my ideas here) that's fine, I'll take this down and go play a bit to test it out.

Runerigus @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
- Electrify
- Destiny Bond
- Metal Burst
- Soft-Boiled

So obviously the main thing with this set is Prankster+Electrify to make you immune to moves. The two problems I see with this so far is that it's helpless against dark types due to Prankster and that since it's locked with using Electrify it's forced to run a completely stall oriented set. Since Serebii says electrify isn't affected by Magic Bounce, those are the weaknesses I see so far. I also looked on the usage statistics posted and only found one Dark type in the top 20, that being Tyranitar at #7, and the next one being Mandibuzz at #33, and I checked multiple times. If you wish to not use Prankster on this though, then

Silvally-Ground @ Water/Ground Memory
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Electrify
- Multi-Attack
- Spectral Thief
- Whatever

This doesn't have the weaknesses of the Prankster set, but trades them out for weaknesses with not guaranteeing that you'll get that electrify whenever possible. This is because the speed stat of Silvally isn't the best for this set, as Flygon could probably do this better, but Flygon trades 100 base attack and speed for 80 in all other stats, which I think isn't worth it. Mold Breaker is there to deal with Shedinja, Multi-Attack to deal with Imposter, Spectral Thief for stat stealing and being better than Sacred Sword, and I couldn't think of a seemingly decent fourth move. You could probably sack Mold Breaker and put Sunsteel for the fourth slot, and use something else, but that's up to whoever uses this thing.

Overall, this seems to be a good set in theory, but I'm not by any means guaranteeing it's success.
 
I’ve kind of been wondering about whether a Clangorous Soul Throat Spray Unburden set would be any better.

Kyurem-White @ Throat Spray
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD 252 Spe
Modest/Timid Nature
- Clangorous Soul
- Ice Beam
- Dynamax Cannon
- Blue Flare / Earth Power

Ice Beam and Dynamax Cannon are STAB, while Blue Flare is for Levitate Steel-types, Earth Power is for Flash Fire Steels. Basically choose which one walls you. In theory, you get a one-turn setup and doubled speed from Unburden, though I’m pretty sure it’s one of those cases of “better on paper than in practice” due to being too vulnerable to Unaware mons with Spectral/Prankster Haze.
Maybe Reshiram with Blue Flare, Dynamax Cannon, Earth Power, and Clangorous Soul? Ice and Dragon are somewhat redundant, but having both Fire and Ground coverage in one set seems viable since you are using 1 for STAB.

You could also consider that Prankster/Unaware are typically weak to at least 1 of those moves: Toxapex, Aegislash, etc. However, Flash Fire Corviknight, and Ice Scales Primarina are still walls.

In this case it may be better to just use Clanging Scales, Blue Flare, Moongeist, and Earth Power with Unburden. Treat it like a Specs user, and let the item for +1 SpA trigger Unburden via Clanging Scales as the Sound attack. Moongeist Breaks Ice Scales Darmanitan-Z, while Earth Power breaks Toxapex.

Again, this isn't for making it perfect, just going with the theme of Unburden + Throat Spray, based on your idea of being walled by Steels. I would say this would make more sense on Reshiram, due to STAB.

Lastly, as I mentioned in my initial Kyurem-White post. Consider Throat Spray on a Boomburst Fridge set. You get +1 after using it, and it matters if you are going to Dynamax, so you get the +1 SpA. It also matters if you are not going to Dynamax, since you still wont be choice locked.

Maybe the best way to view the Throat Spray, is as a sub for Choice Specs, rather than a set-up sweeper. This way you don't rely on it, just view it as a more flexible bonus.
 
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Thanks to whoever that made the escavalier team! It’s pretty fun to use. Thanks to chessking too for arranging the event!
The 7th team was actually good, ‘new players’ can look to that (e: only saying that cuz it beat me, ok jk)
Also OM! can you stop posting so much fr, not saying ur posts r trash (sorry, 80% of them are) but every 2 posts one of them are yours. They are obviously of lower quality than other posts here, and I can tell you that it has a pretty big effect to new players. For me when I explore new metas i just look for some sets that appeal most to me, which most of them are set up sweepers like urs, and require a lot of team support in order to work. The Kyurem-White set can work, only when opposing prankster is gone, you get the perfect opportunity to dynamax, the resist to ur ice move literally can’t do anything to you, no unaware, etc. There’s so much other things that you’ve assumed they didn’t exist in your posts as aforementioned. And your posts stream can go infinitely on and on because of such a high power level in BH, unlike other metas. There are so many sweepers that can sweep the entire team, if you say they can.
As a BH player that is at least ladder top 50 (maybe I dropped don’t judge me, I was ranked 20 ok?), I hope you can stop posting any ideas that just pop up in your brain, and think twice before you post.
 
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It is self-sufficient and uses Dynamax as a lead to avoid taking hits from hazards, or after anything has set up, and if something sets-up or straight-up attacks, it has doubled the HP to survive hits better, and has immediate protections like Psychic Terrain, and the +Speed boost so it can go first (hitting first with Max Flying as you Dynamax, then being 1st next turn using another Max move).
Offensive sets don't have to be, and usually cannot afford to be, self-sufficient (by self-sufficient I assume you mean that it doesn't need team support since it hits everything). This set is yet another gimmick because it relies on the player having Dynamax, and the Psychic/Flying attacks don't really serve a purpose after Dynamax ends (you beat Shedinja with Max Hailstorm and Toxapex with whatever dynamax ground is). Additionally, while speed is nice and whatever, you really only need to outspeed walls to be a good offensive set. TC Zekrom and Specs Kyurem-W are good examples from last gen - compared to other attackers, they're really slow, but it doesn't hurt a team in any way, it just means the team plays more defensively, focusing on slow pivots.

This lead has served me well, and is likely the best offensive set I have posted thus far in this thread.
That's not much of an achievement.

Regarding my other Kyurem-White set, I have also seen it useful, but I do own its a mono set b/c I couldn't fit coverage without giving up Imprison Haze. Again, if I only posted a standard Shell Smash set, people would say "but Prankster Haze", so that's why I thought of it. It is legit taking feedback from the post reply to my Bisharp set about Prankster Haze. So I used that reply as constructive input to prevent the same critique. It's like no matter what I post it's not good enough. A non-mono sweeper isn't good, an anti-Imposter/Hazer isn't good. What's left?
You're trying to fix the wrong thing - if weird Shell Smash sets don't work how about you start thinking of sets that bring big initial power instead of trying to cheese your way out of Shell Smash's consistent checks?

Yes, Shell Smash sets can work, and they have worked in the past. But the good Shell Smash sets beat Prankster by hitting the common Prankster users super-effectively (like SL's wack PH Xerneas set) or already have big offensive presence before setting up (like my sportcaster special's Groudon set).

Darmanitan-Zen Mode has been something I have truly tested, and proved it isn't a gimmick, and that is because it is simply that good. it doesn't fear hazards with Heavy Duty Boots, doesn't fear burns from Imposter, and can legit threaten Steels with STAB. I don't think this Pokemon, or the sets of Fur Coat, or Ice Scales are gimmicks. At the very least, it serves as a good Imposterproof for the cover legends, especially if you are using Body Press / Close Combat, Play Rough, Sunsteel Strike, etc. as it resists their STABs and can force them out, while Toxapex has to fear the more common Bolt Beak, and doesn't have anything to scare them with for actual damage.

It is much easier to accept criticism as fair and constructive, when I know people acknowledge the posts I made, which have been good. It doesn't seem accurate, and that's why I said it was an exaggeration, for seeing someone above say that my posts were not good, as if nothing was ever helpful.

Darmanitan-Z might have been niche last gen, but it was never a gimmick, and this generation it has only improved. I deserve credit for promoting legitimate sets. Not everything is a gimmick.
No one said Darmanitan-Zen was bad (this gen, at least). In fact, it just so happens to be good because of the circumstances of being a Steel, Fairy, Fighting, and Fire resist. But claiming the entire mon was your idea and demanding credit from the community just because you were arguing for it previously (when it was bad) when the odds happened to roll in its favor comes off as very egotistical.
btw no one said darmanitan was a gimmick

I also do accept criticism from others, like the feedback on my gimmicky Prankster Zekrom. Yes, dragons can switch in if I lack Dragon Darts over Fishous Rend, and yes Dazzling, and Priority -Ate Extreme Speeds do a number on it, and I owned that in my replies to it. See here:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons.3656408/page-5#post-8318915

Here when I slightly defend it, I still own it's failures, even ones not directly asked about, like -Ate Speed:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons.3656408/page-5#post-8319105
You're covering the wrong bases - Dazzling and -atespeed are not that common, and aren't the usual checks to this kind of set. The main problem you'll have is Imposter and (wow) Prankster Haze. You incorrectly postulated that you could hit them on the switch when the more likely scenario is that you Belly Drum as the opponent pivots into Prankster Haze to remove your boosts.

my posts are rarely short
no one said they weren't

I always try to show damage calculations, and/or replays, I also sometimes throw in teammates so people know what either checks it for Imposterproofing, or what works as a general ally (like slow pivoting).
this isn't saying much, many people mention what the mon checks, some have replays, and everyone should mention an imposterproof

I have legit tried to show, rather than just tell
this isnt an english class why dont you just tell people
(giving evidence is not showing)

Also, in spite of people's bias against me, I have been supportive of their sets:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons.3656408/page-3#post-8303345
this reminds me of ap stats where we have a peer graded quiz and my table partner doesnt know jack and writes whatever number comes to his mind and then he shows me the 100% i got and says "buddy homie my man" and winks at me while i look at the shit thats scrawled on the page. i look him in the eye and draw a 0 enough to take up the whole page just to assert my dominance.

the words "literally" and "legit"
heavyweapons mann for informative one-liners. very cool!
 
I'd like to talk about Shedinja.

1577322373998.png


I'll cut to the chase: Shedinja is broken and should be removed from the metagame. The combination of Heavy-Duty Boots and the removal or weakening of much of the counterplay to Shedinja that existed in previous generations has pushed it way over the top, making it unreasonable to deal with both in battle and in the teambuilder. Shedinja was formerly a very high-risk/high-reward Pokemon: being unable to deal with it by keeping up hazards or by threatening to trap it with Mold Breaker Pursuit removes much of the risk, as Shedinja now requires far less team support and does not punish the user as hard for messing up. Whenever I face a good Shedinja team I feel as though I'm at a disadvantage from team preview, unless I have something like Sand Stream (which is mediocre besides killing Shed) or I have a way to kill Shedinja on nearly every Pokemon on my team. For the most part this is what people are resorting to on the high ladder: it's common to run up against teams that have 5 or 6 Pokemon that threaten Shedinja, as running a reliable hazards setter no longer cuts it and Pursuit is no longer available. This is obviously unreasonable and not conducive to a healthy metagame.

Before anyone tries it, banning Heavy-Duty Boots instead is not a good option. For one thing, the boots are a great addition to the metagame otherwise, bolstering the viability of hazards-weak defensive Pokemon like Mandibuzz, Darmanitan-Zen, and Reshiram. Furthermore, it's unclear that Shedinja would be balanced even without the boots: many believed that it was too good last generation, and for the most part it's stronger now even when Heavy-Duty Boots are not taken into account.

Every competent player I've spoken to is in agreement that Shedinja is enough of an issue to justify a quickban. I think that action should be taken on it ASAP.
 
Adding to MAMP’s post, I’d like to point out that one of the most straightforward reasons people use Shedinja, is its ability to easily improof both defensive and offensive Pokemon that don’t have Mold Breaker, Will-o-Wisp, moldy moves etc. This allows Shedinja users to go near all-out attacking with their breakers/sweepers, without thinking of specific imposter proofers, like having a Volt Absorb Corviknight for Zekrom, or having to adjust their coverage so that other Pokemon can improof it.

Adding to that, I’ve observed that there has been much less moldy moves going around. I don’t exactly know the reason, but I guess that SSS is replaced by Double Hax Bash, no psychic spammers and psychic is a bad coverage type, and less special wallbreakers in this gen, which the remaining can’t fit a Moongeist Beam in their slots. This makes the ‘high-risk’ in gen7 even less. Last gen nearly every mon can run a moldy move and surprise kill my Shedinja. For defensive shenanigans that can kill Shed, most of them can be checked by a Magic Bounce user.

Last gen, having a Magic Bounce user and an Imposter are near essentials for a Shed team. While I think MBounce is still essential, imposters should be already less needed. With the less risk involved in Shed, opponents are even more incentivised to use their Shed counter move ASAP. This way it would be easier for the Shed side to bait out what the opponent has for Shed, without having to use Imposter to ‘peek’ their sets.

Also, as Shed players are preferring boots to pads now, the classic Endeavor Espeed set has become less common, replaced with the newly buffed Teleport and Pain Split, which avoids contact with Helmet, Spiky Shield etc. It also perks to pressure Magic Bounce Ghosts (I use the Spirit Shackle set aforementioned), which were one of the best checks to Shed in Gen 7. This makes Shedinja even more harder to punish by the would-be checks/counters.

I don’t know why, but overall I’ve seen less Sheds in the ladder now than in Gen 7. Due to people seeing less Sheds, they (and me) are actually preparing less for Shed when building teams. When I bring Shed out they usually realize they’ve got nothing to deal with it already. This makes Shed extremely broken rn but when it becomes more popular, people will adapt to it and bring more answers. I’ll suggest it getting suspected not quickbanned, and only after it becomes more popular.

Ok ted talk done
 
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you can tell which team i built because there is a seismitoad in it

I completely agree with a qb of shed. right now it feels like there is almost no reason not to run a shed on your team, because bouncing is already good in this meta. having a blanket impoof to pretty much anything is unhealthy and reduces the amount of creativity in the meta. when i play a team without shed i constantly feel like im at a disadvantage to those that do. if i have to dedicate 5/6 moveslots just to one threat i think that threat is overcentralizing.

boots are definitely not the problem, i think they have (outside of shed) allowed for more varied mons as now having a rocks weakness isnt as bad.
 
1577511103154.png

Centiskorch-Gmax @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- V-create
- U-turn
- Slack Off
- Stealth Rock / Spikes / Filler

Here's a cool mon I've been using lately. Fur Coat Centiskorch is a pretty niche defensive Pokemon that is often outclassed by other defensive Fire-types, but its got enough going for it to give it a place on certain teams. It takes on most of the stuff that defensive Fire-types usually beat (Zacian-C, Melmetal, Zamazenta, Kyurem-B) while having a surprising amount of offensive presence and not being weak to Ground. Centiskorch's V-Create is pretty threatening and scares out a lot of Magic Bouncers, making it good at getting hazards up. Its strong, slow U-turn is also really great for keeping up pressure and allowing it to wear down switchins. Gigantamax is funny but situational tech: Gigantamaxing gives you access to G-Max Centiferno, which traps and damages the opponent, allowing Centiskorch to kill Shedinja. It's pretty comparable to Golisopod as they cover similar stuff defensively and like to U-turn around, but Centiskorch has better special bulk, is more threatening offensively and doesn't get rinsed by Bolt Beak, in exchange for having a faster U-turn, less physical bulk, and lacking Golisopod's Water and Ground resists.
 

GL Volkner

burst into flames
is a Tiering Contributor
I'd like to talk about Shedinja.

View attachment 214682

I'll cut to the chase: Shedinja is broken and should be removed from the metagame. The combination of Heavy-Duty Boots and the removal or weakening of much of the counterplay to Shedinja that existed in previous generations has pushed it way over the top, making it unreasonable to deal with both in battle and in the teambuilder. Shedinja was formerly a very high-risk/high-reward Pokemon: being unable to deal with it by keeping up hazards or by threatening to trap it with Mold Breaker Pursuit removes much of the risk, as Shedinja now requires far less team support and does not punish the user as hard for messing up. Whenever I face a good Shedinja team I feel as though I'm at a disadvantage from team preview, unless I have something like Sand Stream (which is mediocre besides killing Shed) or I have a way to kill Shedinja on nearly every Pokemon on my team. For the most part this is what people are resorting to on the high ladder: it's common to run up against teams that have 5 or 6 Pokemon that threaten Shedinja, as running a reliable hazards setter no longer cuts it and Pursuit is no longer available. This is obviously unreasonable and not conducive to a healthy metagame.

Before anyone tries it, banning Heavy-Duty Boots instead is not a good option. For one thing, the boots are a great addition to the metagame otherwise, bolstering the viability of hazards-weak defensive Pokemon like Mandibuzz, Darmanitan-Zen, and Reshiram. Furthermore, it's unclear that Shedinja would be balanced even without the boots: many believed that it was too good last generation, and for the most part it's stronger now even when Heavy-Duty Boots are not taken into account.

Every competent player I've spoken to is in agreement that Shedinja is enough of an issue to justify a quickban. I think that action should be taken on it ASAP.
Adding to MAMP’s post, I’d like to point out that one of the most straightforward reasons people use Shedinja, is its ability to easily improof both defensive and offensive Pokemon that don’t have Mold Breaker, Will-o-Wisp, moldy moves etc. This allows Shedinja users to go near all-out attacking with their breakers/sweepers, without thinking of specific imposter proofers, like having a Volt Absorb Corviknight for Zekrom, or having to adjust their coverage so that other Pokemon can improof it.

Adding to that, I’ve observed that there has been much less moldy moves going around. I don’t exactly know the reason, but I guess that SSS is replaced by Double Hax Bash, no psychic spammers and psychic is a bad coverage type, and less special wallbreakers in this gen, which the remaining can’t fit a Moongeist Beam in their slots. This makes the ‘high-risk’ in gen7 even less. Last gen nearly every mon can run a moldy move and surprise kill my Shedinja. For defensive shenanigans that can kill Shed, most of them can be checked by a Magic Bounce user.

Last gen, having a Magic Bounce user and an Imposter are near essentials for a Shed team. While I think MBounce is still essential, imposters should be already less needed. With the less risk involved in Shed, opponents are even more incentivised to use their Shed counter move ASAP. This way it would be easier for the Shed side to bait out what the opponent has for Shed, without having to use Imposter to ‘peek’ their sets.

Also, as Shed players are preferring boots to pads now, the classic Endeavor Espeed set has become less common, replaced with the newly buffed Teleport and Pain Split, which avoids contact with Helmet, Spiky Shield etc. It also perks to pressure Magic Bounce Ghosts (I use the Spirit Shackle set aforementioned), which were one of the best checks to Shed in Gen 7. This makes Shedinja even more harder to punish by the would-be checks/counters.

I don’t know why, but overall I’ve seen less Sheds in the ladder now than in Gen 7. Due to people seeing less Sheds, they (and me) are actually preparing less for Shed when building teams. When I bring Shed out they usually realize they’ve got nothing to deal with it already. This makes Shed extremely broken rn but when it becomes more popular, people will adapt to it and bring more answers. I’ll suggest it getting suspected not quickbanned, and only after it becomes more popular.

Ok ted talk done
you can tell which team i built because there is a seismitoad in it

I completely agree with a qb of shed. right now it feels like there is almost no reason not to run a shed on your team, because bouncing is already good in this meta. having a blanket impoof to pretty much anything is unhealthy and reduces the amount of creativity in the meta. when i play a team without shed i constantly feel like im at a disadvantage to those that do. if i have to dedicate 5/6 moveslots just to one threat i think that threat is overcentralizing.

boots are definitely not the problem, i think they have (outside of shed) allowed for more varied mons as now having a rocks weakness isnt as bad.
These posts do a fantastic job of outlining the problems with Shed in the meta rn so I won't be adding onto them but can we get some degree of direction in here about what quickbans/suspects you guys are considering? BH open is in 2 weeks (3 including signups) so if you all wanna do something about Shed which you guys def should now is the time. I personally would want some time before the open to build but the lack of knowing what's going on really doesn't help that because I don't know what I'll be building for. I dont mean to bitch and you guys have been doing a fair job about transparency but like this is very pressing. Thanks

E4 Flint Funbot28 a loser Willdbeast

e: before some newton quotes my post and goes over why its less broken in gen 8 boots pads and goggles are all viable items and there's less ghosts and no suit so like
 
Loss of Giratina, Gengar, and Moldy Pursuit, along with some other more niche options, really does sting when it comes to Shedinja. Still, I'd be a little hesitant to go after it though less because of any gameplay and more because of general mindset of the population. Has it changed enough since the failed Shedinja suspect for a quick ban a mere 1-2 months later to go through? Or are people just gonna go "lol why r we doin Shed again rofl no ban plz"?

I mean, I'm not opposed to Shedinja getting a looksie this time around since a number of the tools I argued about last gen are just... gone while Shed has picked up more options. I'm just more concerned with people having actually shifted to the Gen 8 Shed mindset.



Personally, I'd say Bolt Beak and Fiscious Rend really need to get smacked out of the meta. I mean, they're effectively 170 BP attacks with 16 PP and 100 Acc with a marginal downside that only really comes up against priority abusers. Yeah, you could outspeed and cut the power and half, but nobody in their right mind is going to be using those moves when they're going to get outsped unless they don't have any better option(s). It's spammable, synergizes super well with speed boosting (Shift Gear, Shell Smash, Choice Scarf, and plenty of more niche options), works for breaking and sweeping, and is incredibly difficult to stall out. They're also about as strong as -ate STAB Boomburst at base power. Add STAB to these moves and they hit something like BP 255. Even unstabbed though 170 BP is going to outdamage most STAB moves. Add abilities and items and nope you're dead. Oh, and they give great coverage with just the two alone.

Oh, and did I mention that, with a little finangling with Dynamax, they can give themselves Terrain/Weather boosts? It's a bit fiddly cause the three turn deal, but still worth noting since any user can pull a terrain or weather boost on demand without warning which can do junk like bypass Unaware and Spectral/Haze spammers.

Do they have checks? Yeah, kinda. Fur Coat helps and so do resists, but they still take annoying amounts of damage from breaker or sweeper sets. Bolt Beak has Ground immunities, but those can be Fished unless they have an immune ability. Speaking of, most immune abilities can be Mold Broken, if desired, and the Ground-types can usually be bopped hard with a Grass or Ice move if really desired. Shedinja stops em, unless Moldy again, and a Sash might revenge KO. I suppose you could Trick Room them, but that's a really niche strat. Paralysis helps, but won't work on the Electric-types and the Paralysis nerf last gen really works in favor for the set-up users.

Compare to V-Create (which might be overbearing this gen too anyway since Giratina, Zygarde, Primal Ogre, and many other fat resists are all gone), which does have more power at 180, sure. But it has half the PP, only 95 acc for random hax misses, and its stat drop drawback make it extremely difficult to sweep with and/or stay in and spam safely which pretty much limits it most reliable uses to wall breakers.

So yeah, I'd say please do Bolt Rend first. Having one, ideally more, resist/immunes on your team is practically mandatory or you're going to get ducked over by a good Bolt Rend user or a spam of haphazard ones. Throw V-Create in there too if you guys really want, I don't care since Bolt Rend is pretty broken.
 
Loss of Giratina, Gengar, and Moldy Pursuit, along with some other more niche options, really does sting when it comes to Shedinja. Still, I'd be a little hesitant to go after it though less because of any gameplay and more because of general mindset of the population. Has it changed enough since the failed Shedinja suspect for a quick ban a mere 1-2 months later to go through? Or are people just gonna go "lol why r we doin Shed again rofl no ban plz"?

I mean, I'm not opposed to Shedinja getting a looksie this time around since a number of the tools I argued about last gen are just... gone while Shed has picked up more options. I'm just more concerned with people having actually shifted to the Gen 8 Shed mindset.



Personally, I'd say Bolt Beak and Fiscious Rend really need to get smacked out of the meta. I mean, they're effectively 170 BP attacks with 16 PP and 100 Acc with a marginal downside that only really comes up against priority abusers. Yeah, you could outspeed and cut the power and half, but nobody in their right mind is going to be using those moves when they're going to get outsped unless they don't have any better option(s). It's spammable, synergizes super well with speed boosting (Shift Gear, Shell Smash, Choice Scarf, and plenty of more niche options), works for breaking and sweeping, and is incredibly difficult to stall out. They're also about as strong as -ate STAB Boomburst at base power. Add STAB to these moves and they hit something like BP 255. Even unstabbed though 170 BP is going to outdamage most STAB moves. Add abilities and items and nope you're dead. Oh, and they give great coverage with just the two alone.

Oh, and did I mention that, with a little finangling with Dynamax, they can give themselves Terrain/Weather boosts? It's a bit fiddly cause the three turn deal, but still worth noting since any user can pull a terrain or weather boost on demand without warning which can do junk like bypass Unaware and Spectral/Haze spammers.

Do they have checks? Yeah, kinda. Fur Coat helps and so do resists, but they still take annoying amounts of damage from breaker or sweeper sets. Bolt Beak has Ground immunities, but those can be Fished unless they have an immune ability. Speaking of, most immune abilities can be Mold Broken, if desired, and the Ground-types can usually be bopped hard with a Grass or Ice move if really desired. Shedinja stops em, unless Moldy again, and a Sash might revenge KO. I suppose you could Trick Room them, but that's a really niche strat. Paralysis helps, but won't work on the Electric-types and the Paralysis nerf last gen really works in favor for the set-up users.

Compare to V-Create (which might be overbearing this gen too anyway since Giratina, Zygarde, Primal Ogre, and many other fat resists are all gone), which does have more power at 180, sure. But it has half the PP, only 95 acc for random hax misses, and its stat drop drawback make it extremely difficult to sweep with and/or stay in and spam safely which pretty much limits it most reliable uses to wall breakers.

So yeah, I'd say please do Bolt Rend first. Having one, ideally more, resist/immunes on your team is practically mandatory or you're going to get ducked over by a good Bolt Rend user or a spam of haphazard ones. Throw V-Create in there too if you guys really want, I don't care since Bolt Rend is pretty broken.
Nice post.

So after reading all that I decided to test how strong Bolt Rend is. The results are interesting:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1038363434

Against a noob so nothing worth saying about. However, watching a single Zeraora cheese through 6 Zacian in a row was a rather new experience to me...
 

GL Volkner

burst into flames
is a Tiering Contributor
Loss of Giratina, Gengar, and Moldy Pursuit, along with some other more niche options, really does sting when it comes to Shedinja. Still, I'd be a little hesitant to go after it though less because of any gameplay and more because of general mindset of the population. Has it changed enough since the failed Shedinja suspect for a quick ban a mere 1-2 months later to go through? Or are people just gonna go "lol why r we doin Shed again rofl no ban plz"?

I mean, I'm not opposed to Shedinja getting a looksie this time around since a number of the tools I argued about last gen are just... gone while Shed has picked up more options. I'm just more concerned with people having actually shifted to the Gen 8 Shed mindset.



Personally, I'd say Bolt Beak and Fiscious Rend really need to get smacked out of the meta. I mean, they're effectively 170 BP attacks with 16 PP and 100 Acc with a marginal downside that only really comes up against priority abusers. Yeah, you could outspeed and cut the power and half, but nobody in their right mind is going to be using those moves when they're going to get outsped unless they don't have any better option(s). It's spammable, synergizes super well with speed boosting (Shift Gear, Shell Smash, Choice Scarf, and plenty of more niche options), works for breaking and sweeping, and is incredibly difficult to stall out. They're also about as strong as -ate STAB Boomburst at base power. Add STAB to these moves and they hit something like BP 255. Even unstabbed though 170 BP is going to outdamage most STAB moves. Add abilities and items and nope you're dead. Oh, and they give great coverage with just the two alone.

Oh, and did I mention that, with a little finangling with Dynamax, they can give themselves Terrain/Weather boosts? It's a bit fiddly cause the three turn deal, but still worth noting since any user can pull a terrain or weather boost on demand without warning which can do junk like bypass Unaware and Spectral/Haze spammers.

Do they have checks? Yeah, kinda. Fur Coat helps and so do resists, but they still take annoying amounts of damage from breaker or sweeper sets. Bolt Beak has Ground immunities, but those can be Fished unless they have an immune ability. Speaking of, most immune abilities can be Mold Broken, if desired, and the Ground-types can usually be bopped hard with a Grass or Ice move if really desired. Shedinja stops em, unless Moldy again, and a Sash might revenge KO. I suppose you could Trick Room them, but that's a really niche strat. Paralysis helps, but won't work on the Electric-types and the Paralysis nerf last gen really works in favor for the set-up users.

Compare to V-Create (which might be overbearing this gen too anyway since Giratina, Zygarde, Primal Ogre, and many other fat resists are all gone), which does have more power at 180, sure. But it has half the PP, only 95 acc for random hax misses, and its stat drop drawback make it extremely difficult to sweep with and/or stay in and spam safely which pretty much limits it most reliable uses to wall breakers.

So yeah, I'd say please do Bolt Rend first. Having one, ideally more, resist/immunes on your team is practically mandatory or you're going to get ducked over by a good Bolt Rend user or a spam of haphazard ones. Throw V-Create in there too if you guys really want, I don't care since Bolt Rend is pretty broken.
So your concern isn't if it's too broken but rather if people are in a different mindset because of a different metagame????
 
So your concern isn't if it's too broken but rather if people are in a different mindset because of a different metagame????
Look at it this way. The "core" players who are playing a ton probably have more experience and all, but the more casual players will make the majority of the vote. You know, the ones we never hear from in discussions but show up in droves having made reqs when the test comes along. We've also been in the holidays so people aren't playing as much or at all and, for many, if they have been playing it's been on the actual game itself. The last suspect in BH (regardless of Gen) was Shedinja, which was rallied out of nowhere by a significant number of core players in discussion to beat out other suspect options and then proceeded to fail the actual vote.

Also remember all those people saying stuff "What's the point?" and all that. Imagine how it'd come across if we immediately go to a Shedinja suspect/quick ban vote again. People are gonna be relying a lot on past gen experience and the "seriously, again?" belief and will be more likely to vote against the ban again whether such a vote is justified or not because people are not non-biased on such matters.

So, if Shedinja is suspect worthy (which I think it probably is this time around), I say wait at least a quick ban/suspect or two before going after it. If you have two Shedinja suspects back to back fail then I can promise you're going to have one hell of an uphill battle at getting rid of it in the future if it truly does prove to be busted.

Of course, this is all psychology stuff and all and I'm no expert so I reserve the right to be very wrong. But I honestly think a Shedinja vote/suspect has the best chance of succeeding rather than being a waste of time again if you guys hold off a little on it.
 
Since Shedinja keeps coming up I'm going to go in depth with it about my opinion.

Loss of Giratina, Gengar, and Moldy Pursuit, along with some other more niche options, really does sting when it comes to Shedinja. Still, I'd be a little hesitant to go after it though less because of any gameplay and more because of general mindset of the population. Has it changed enough since the failed Shedinja suspect for a quick ban a mere 1-2 months later to go through? Or are people just gonna go "lol why r we doin Shed again rofl no ban plz"?
I don't mean to be disrespectful but this argument is utterly nonsensical. Why are you using the results of a Suspect Test from last gen, an entirely different ladder and metagame overall to justify your argument against banning Shedinja now? It doesn't take an experienced player to know that one of the most influential Shed counters there is, is now gone.
900px-487Giratina-Altered.png

Giratina is the de facto best bulky Ghost-type there is. Without Giratina, people have resorted to using significantly more passive Ghost-types as a Shed switch in, or shoehorning in Sunsteel Strike on their physical attackers or Will-o-Wisp on their bulky mons just so they don't end up losing a Pokemon at any given point in time because it didn't happen to reserve a move on its' set solely to beating Shedinja in some manner.

I mean, I'm not opposed to Shedinja getting a looksie this time around since a number of the tools I argued about last gen are just... gone while Shed has picked up more options. I'm just more concerned with people having actually shifted to the Gen 8 Shed mindset.
What "mindset"? People who rely on Shed have tended to always build their teams around Shed not dying. Hence the popularity of Misty Terrain in Gen 7 alongside multiple hazard removal mons. It's just more prominent now because Shed received a buff while overall there's been reverse power creep with a lot of checks to Shed being absent as well as Pokemon who are better suited to beating Shed like good offensive Psychic-types to use Photon Geyser or good Mold Breaker Pokemon.

Look at it this way. The "core" players who are playing a ton probably have more experience and all, but the more casual players will make the majority of the vote. You know, the ones we never hear from in discussions but show up in droves having made reqs when the test comes along.
And who says their opinion isn't any less relevant? If anything, casual players are more affected by Shedinja because higher ladder and tour players tend to avoid using Shedinja in my experience.

Also remember all those people saying stuff "What's the point?" and all that. Imagine how it'd come across if we immediately go to a Shedinja suspect/quick ban vote again. People are gonna be relying a lot on past gen experience and the "seriously, again?" belief and will be more likely to vote against the ban again whether such a vote is justified or not because people are not non-biased on such matters.
Again, Gen 7 experience does not necessarily apply to Gen 8, and not everyone shares your mindset. The main reason the ban didn't go through is because the Suspect Test in Gen 7 happened at the end of the gen. We're at the beginning of a new gen and people are much more likely to give this a different look.

Overall I support a quick ban for Shedinja. It's lost almost all of its best checks, good special attackers that can fend it off with Photon Geyser and Moongeist Beam are basically nonexistent, Weather isn't that good, it got a buff in the form of Heavy Duty Boots, and I think Shedinja promotes an extremely toxic environment. You constantly have to build multiple offensive and defensive checks for solely Shed, and anyone who relies on Shed builds their team in a way that Shed has the most survivability and offers the most utility to the team in the form of improofing. Meanwhile, with changes like Shedinja running no contact moves like Pain Split, even Ghost-types are struggling to check it because Pain Split hits Ghost-types too.

It's important to remember that one of the reasons Shed is hated at a high level was because of teams like the Gen 7 Misty Terrain teams. Where legitimately good BH players optimize their teams so Shed is significantly more difficult to check. No other mon is like Shed in that if you lose your check or checks to Shed, you lose the game, period. Any other mon, you can beat it through whittling it down over the course of the battle. Even if you can't directly check said mon. With Shed, either you knock it out, or you lose, there is no alternatives. What makes Shed balanced, or unbalanced rather, is how difficult it is for any player to actually knock it out. In Gen 7 you had a plethora of Sunsteel, Moongeist, and Photon users, Weather was much more common, and hazards were common enough that teams had to run two Pokemon with Defog to ensure Shed wouldn't be deadweight in the presence of rocks.

If I had to say my personal experience with Shed, I rarely use it because I don't personally feel like I'll improve at BH if I rely on it. The odd times I do use it, it's because I couldn't find a Pokemon suitable for improofing a mon I am using. Which might I add, probably contributes to its increasingly high use in Gen 8 because improofing Pokemon is also more difficult with the lack of solid walls like Giratina. Every time I've faced it in Gen 7, I didn't feel like it was particularly offensive even if it was somewhat annoying to check. In Generation 8, based on my insights, I have seen people relying on it more and more. I've seen players straight up forfeit games when they lose their Shed because they rely on it for multiple roles.
 
Look at it this way. The "core" players who are playing a ton probably have more experience and all, but the more casual players will make the majority of the vote. You know, the ones we never hear from in discussions but show up in droves having made reqs when the test comes along. We've also been in the holidays so people aren't playing as much or at all and, for many, if they have been playing it's been on the actual game itself. The last suspect in BH (regardless of Gen) was Shedinja, which was rallied out of nowhere by a significant number of core players in discussion to beat out other suspect options and then proceeded to fail the actual vote.

Also remember all those people saying stuff "What's the point?" and all that. Imagine how it'd come across if we immediately go to a Shedinja suspect/quick ban vote again. People are gonna be relying a lot on past gen experience and the "seriously, again?" belief and will be more likely to vote against the ban again whether such a vote is justified or not because people are not non-biased on such matters.

So, if Shedinja is suspect worthy (which I think it probably is this time around), I say wait at least a quick ban/suspect or two before going after it. If you have two Shedinja suspects back to back fail then I can promise you're going to have one hell of an uphill battle at getting rid of it in the future if it truly does prove to be busted.

Of course, this is all psychology stuff and all and I'm no expert so I reserve the right to be very wrong. But I honestly think a Shedinja vote/suspect has the best chance of succeeding rather than being a waste of time again if you guys hold off a little on it.
This is piggybacking off of the previous post some but frankly, this perspective is quite ridiculous. If something is broken, we shouldn’t wait to ban it just because the community concluded it wasn’t broken in a different metagame.

The gen 8 meta is clearly different enough to warrant immediate action on Shed. It lost basically all good counterplay in usable ghosts, keeping up hazards, and moldy pursuit. We’re also mostly ignoring that pads Shed and the gen 7 team structure is perfectly usable this gen, especially since teams don’t have anything like Giratina or Gengar to switch in on endeavor. In my eyes, it’s perfectly clear Shed is broken, and quickbanning is definitely the better option considering the upcoming BH open.
 
The casual players don't care much about the metagame compared to the core players and should there be a suspect test the majority of the players that get reqs are the elite players anyways.

If anything the points against Shed this gen are strong enough such that the council should be able to quickban it without needing to consult the playerbase.

I still stand by my point that Shed is beyond ridiculous even in Gen 7 and that the failed suspect was, imo, a case of how people were uninformed/familiar with Shed as a tool (I doubt many of them ever even used a quality Shed team). Note that Shed is still beyond ridiculous even with Gengar's incredible rise in viability with the discovery of many new sets as well as teams using Gengar as an improof for something (that frequently has Toxic which beats Shed as well). I don't think I need to discuss much about Shed's brokeness in gen 7 because thats irrelevant.

In Gen 8 there are no Gar, no Tina, no Suit, Sand Stream is outclassed by Ice Scales basically, hazards don't work against Shed half the time.

The Ghosts this gen, despite getting a boost because of the decreased bulk and viability of Imposter, all suck. Aegislash isn't good, Jellicent is niche, Runerigus is alright but its bulk is mediocre and is reliant on its typing which doesn't offer too much actually, Gourgeist is very niche, Dragapult is actually bad, Marshadow is decent but not very good, NDW has horrible speed tier. The only useable one imo is Lunala with Moongeist sets being anti-meta. These are no where near the viability of Giratina + Gengar, two of last gen's most prominent ~S-/A+ mons.

The absence of stuff like Sand Stream, Pursuit, Hazards killing Shed, or even a very threatening breaker called Mega Gengar makes Shed insanely difficult to punish which makes it so you need to minimize the opportunities that it can come in. Last gen you can at least get up hazards to punish it or try to guarantee remove it with Moldy Suit or a pivot to Sand. This gen you have to make sure every single one of your mons is capable of punishing Shed one way or another, unless you have something like Specs Lunala or Moldy Marsh and strong team support to make them actually threatening when they get in. (BTW don't run Haze Recovery U-turn/Anchor Strength Sap Prank mons they are free for Shed). The only case where you do run mons that can't touch Shed is ... if you are improofing with your own Shed.

Shed teams are easily the most reliable, solid, and consistent teams out there rn with plenty of evidence to support it (I was able to reach top 15 of early gen 8 ladder with 1 loss using a not-very-refined standard Shed team and I'm sure other great players have achieved better).

So yeah please QB the never-dying bug before BH Open starts thanks.
 
High Level:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1035233706

Low Level:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1035243126

After doing well, I wanted to finally post this set of Excadrill that I have been using. It’s taking advantage of both Tough Claws and the new buffs in moves it got this generation.

I wanted to select a Pokemon that has good coverage, while being Imposter resistant, while also using its typing as a great benefit in being immune to at least a few anti-sweeping measures such as Baneful Bunker, or (Pixelate/Galvanize) Extreme Speed.

So here is my tried and tested Excadrill set:

Excadrill (M) @ Ground Memory
Ability: Tough Claws
Shiny: Yes
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Multi-Attack
- Bolt Beak
- Sunsteel Strike

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Munchlax Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Excadrill: 193-228 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Excadrill Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Munchlax: 620-732 (130.8 - 154.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While not the bulkiest sweeper, it’s typing more than makes up for that, and proves that if you at least have the moves to cover most things, you don’t have to keep switching out.

Imposterproofs are also much easier due to the Normal-Type Multi-Attack, so using Steelix is now an option, whereas using a Ground move like High-Horsepower would make that less simple to solve... Volt Absorb Corviknight also works.

Excadrill works well in coverage because it’s main STAB is partnered with Bolt Beak, meaning Golisipod and Corviknight lacking Volt Absorb are shocked, and even Shedinja has to watch out for Sunsteel Strike. Having a 4x resistance to Stealth Rocks and an Immunity to Toxic Spikes are other perks that help alleviate its rather frail Defenses.

This set may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but when supported by a SR setting slow pivot, it can take advantage of coming in on something it forces out, and hit most mon at least nuetrally.

It’s not perfect due to a lack of bulk, but at least that helps it threaten out Imposter.

I won’t exaggerate it’s practicality, as it does need to have a chance to set up, which can be difficult, but with some support it can “hit the Ground running.” :)

My last post of 2019!

Edit: Bonus replay
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1038534958

Made it into the top 25: with a good win/loss ratio
C1AE4FD4-532B-45D0-A065-35E7C5B81650.jpeg

I wish everyone a very (early) Happy New Year!

I think this has been a great year for Pokemon, and I cannot wait to see what next year brings!

Warm wishes for everyone especially MAMP E4 Flint a loser Willdbeast Rumors かたわれ時 and Gmansour20

Edit: & motherlove you rock because if someone were to ask “who is the person who rocks more than anyone else?” I would say “Jesus, tied with motherlove !“
 
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Ok so guys I totally agree with how Shed is broken, but you can’t just talk on paper. In my personal experience, I’ve seen very few Sheds on ladder, maybe 1 in 10 teams. Deciding on quickbans or suspects requires the whole trend of the meta too. I’m battling with actually good players 75% of the time, and they all bring answers to Shed on nearly every mon. When the problem itself hasn’t even arisen, why tackle the problem? I know Shed forces answers on every mon on a team and it may be over-centralising, but good teams don’t use those moves (answers) just for Shed. Mold Breaker is basically good generally for ignoring Bounce, Fur Coat, etc., things like Wisp or Seed are generally annoying on anything, and ghosts are just perfectly usable for other issues like spin blocking, trapping. Nobody said Aegislash isn’t good anymore despite the stat nerf.

Well now considering BH Open starting soon, I’d suggest it getting QBed before it starts, but allow discussion or re-suspect to unban after some time. I really don’t see the immediate issue, or the need to get rid of it right now. In my battles Shed doesn’t appear for more than 1 turn.
 
Ok so guys I totally agree with how Shed is broken, but you can’t just talk on paper. In my personal experience, I’ve seen very few Sheds on ladder, maybe 1 in 10 teams. Deciding on quickbans or suspects requires the whole trend of the meta too. I’m battling with actually good players 75% of the time, and they all bring answers to Shed on nearly every mon. When the problem itself hasn’t even arisen, why tackle the problem? I know Shed forces answers on every mon on a team and it may be over-centralising, but good teams don’t use those moves (answers) just for Shed. Mold Breaker is basically good generally for ignoring Bounce, Fur Coat, etc., things like Wisp or Seed are generally annoying on anything, and ghosts are just perfectly usable for other issues like spin blocking, trapping. Nobody said Aegislash isn’t good anymore despite the stat nerf.

Well now considering BH Open starting soon, I’d suggest it getting QBed before it starts, but allow discussion or re-suspect to unban after some time. I really don’t see the immediate issue, or the need to get rid of it right now. In my battles Shed doesn’t appear for more than 1 turn.
I can’t really tell what you’re trying to say about Shed with this post, but I disagree with your reasons behind hesitation here. Usage stats don’t determine how broken a mon is, and uncompetitive elements don’t have to used on basically every team to be banworthy. While this example is from a different metagame, take USUM RU banning Linoone. It was only used on a specific type archetype, and if I recall correctly, Linoone was only in the B ranks on the VR when it was suspected. However, the community found that its team style of screens HO was uncompetitive, despite its seemingly low viability.

I think that Shed in SwSh BH is in a similar position, except that top players’ personal VRs consistently have Shed in S. I agree with Chesskings’s perspective that more casual players don’t think Shed is broken because they don’t understand what a good Shed team is. Oftentimes on ladder, I can just switch in a random Helmet mon on a HDB Shed and watch it die while it uses Endeavor/U-turn. I also have to question what “good players” you’ve played. There’s a big difference between playing consistently good tour players and random 1400s ladder players.

The biggest problem I see with Shed, though, is the centralization it brings to the tier. As you alluded to, I don’t think Shed is a good option on ladder, since many ladder players will run moldy moves on 5-6 of their mons. However, in reference to anti-Shed measures, I disagree that good teams don’t use them just to beat Shed. The moldy moves are (mostly) bad without Shed: Photon and Moongeist are practically useless coverage and would only be used by their rare STAB users, and Sunsteel is a poor coverage type and almost entirely outclassed by Double Iron Bash outside of beating Shed. Mold Breaker is definitely a good offensive ability, but Shed is honestly the biggest reason to use it, and there are plenty of other abilities offensive mons would like to use. The fact that Shed centralizes the tier on how much of your team can beat it with a very specific set of moves (and the aforementioned loss of Shed counters) is problematic and warrants a quickban no matter what in my eyes.

My real gripe, however, is that the council has been largely silent on this discussion that has been taking place practically since the start of the generation. You guys have been great otherwise but as Volkner said this is a pressing issue. a loser I know you’ve been paying attention to this discussion by liking posts. Can you please detail your thoughts in this thread? Tagging E4 Flint Funbot28 Willdbeast to do the same.
 
Personally, I don't think action should be taken on Shedinja before the BH Open. If anything, I see the Open as an opportunity to show what "high level" players can do with Shedinja in this early state of the generation. This, of course, would mean actually using Shedinja and/or not making arbitrary agreements to change the meta to what you like best.

As for my thoughts on Shedinja, I and a few others have stated that Shedinja's true impact on this meta has not been established. Yes, Heavy Duty Boots and the lack of Pursuit make Shedinja more difficult to remove, but the ladder is not kind to Shedinja in the current state of the meta. Rocky Helmet, Will-O-Wisp, Knock Off, Spiky Shield/Baneful Bunker, and Fur Coat are all very common aspects of teambuilding in attempt to check or wall threatening physical breakers like Zacian-C, Zekrom, and Darmanitan-Galar-Zen. Each of these can punish Shedinja or its teammates in different ways. When using Boots Shedinja on the ladder myself, I've found I'm mainly running away from status, Moldy moves, or Knock Off more than I am setting Stealth Rock or gaining momentum with Baton Pass/Teleport/U-turn.

So again, I believe that seeing Shedinja's impact and usage in a tour like the BH Open would be valuable and help give us a clearer picture of its place in the meta. I don't believe that a quick ban is the right move here and that a suspect after the Open would be more appropriate, if people are still calling for it.
 

GL Volkner

burst into flames
is a Tiering Contributor
Personally, I don't think action should be taken on Shedinja before the BH Open. If anything, I see the Open as an opportunity to show what "high level" players can do with Shedinja in this early state of the generation. This, of course, would mean actually using Shedinja and/or not making arbitrary agreements to change the meta to what you like best.

As for my thoughts on Shedinja, I and a few others have stated that Shedinja's true impact on this meta has not been established. Yes, Heavy Duty Boots and the lack of Pursuit make Shedinja more difficult to remove, but the ladder is not kind to Shedinja in the current state of the meta. Rocky Helmet, Will-O-Wisp, Knock Off, Spiky Shield/Baneful Bunker, and Fur Coat are all very common aspects of teambuilding in attempt to check or wall threatening physical breakers like Zacian-C, Zekrom, and Darmanitan-Galar-Zen. Each of these can punish Shedinja or its teammates in different ways. When using Boots Shedinja on the ladder myself, I've found I'm mainly running away from status, Moldy moves, or Knock Off more than I am setting Stealth Rock or gaining momentum with Baton Pass/Teleport/U-turn.

So again, I believe that seeing Shedinja's impact and usage in a tour like the BH Open would be valuable and help give us a clearer picture of its place in the meta. I don't believe that a quick ban is the right move here and that a suspect after the Open would be more appropriate, if people are still calling for it.
You talk about Shed as if its only set is Boots but the fact is that Pads is still a really good item on Shed, it just has something else to compete with now. The fact that you can either choose between a Shedinja that needs less support and more scouting as opposed to a Shedinja that needs more support and less scouting is still incredibly good. You also underestimate how much of that counterplay relies on the Shed in question being Boots. Yes, status and Knock Off is good - but that doesn't even come close to being good and reliable against Shedinja. Any team can and will have ways to deal with that. The generally passive nature of the checks you listed means that its quite easy to use your own support to shrug it off. That's what the problem was in Gen 7, but it has the added boon of not having as many threats to worry about while simultaneously having more options and being able to select what direction the team wants to place more emphasis on.

I strongly believe that the council should reconsider their decision if these are the grounds on which it was made. This is rationale I would expect to see from a player with an introductory understanding of BH, not the council. Just because something has checks does not mean it's not broken, and when most of the checks are as reliant on the opponent having the Shedinja set you want it to have while also relying on the opponent not having the necessary support for it, it's my belief that the Pokemon in question is broken, especially when the punishment is as severe as Shedinja's.
 

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