BH Balanced Hackmons

The Immortal

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I don't think some of these posts are fair. A council isn't a brainless group that observes what the community wants banned. A council brings their own knowledge and opinions. If the purpose of the council was figuring out only what the community wanted then it'd be the most active/unbiased people across PS/Discord/here rather than experienced BH players. The community was unhappy with the previous process of gathering their opinions through suspect polls and making decisions they voted on. The community wanted a council. This is a council.

As far as I can tell, the council unanimously does not believe Shedinja should be tested. The problem here is not that but rather that the council hasn't provided good explanation of why they believe Shedinja shouldn't be suspected. No, the council is not dead. Yes, they play Sw/Sh BH. And I can tell you they discussed Shedinja, as well as the other things Flint mentions. I think y'all need to give them a break as communication is still a work in progress, both within the council and from the council to the community. Forcing them to make a decision they don't agree with sets a bad precedent for the future of BH and devalues the entire purpose of a council.

With that said, I agree that we need to see more communication from the council on why Shedinja shouldn't be tested at this point in time. Then the community can counter-argue, and so forth... leading to a decision everyone can understand.
 

GL Volkner

burst into flames
is a Tiering Contributor
Yeah please don't step down lol
I don't think some of these posts are fair. A council isn't a brainless group that observes what the community wants banned. A council brings their own knowledge and opinions. If the purpose of the council was figuring out only what the community wanted then it'd be the most active/unbiased people across PS/Discord/here rather than experienced BH players. The community was unhappy with the previous process of gathering their opinions through suspect polls and making decisions they voted on. The community wanted a council. This is a council.

As far as I can tell, the council unanimously does not believe Shedinja should be tested. The problem here is not that but rather that the council hasn't provided good explanation of why they don't believe Shedinja should be suspected. No, the council is not dead. Yes, they play Sw/Sh BH. And I can tell you they discussed Shedinja, as well as the other things Flint mentions. I think y'all need to give them a break as communication is still a work in progress, both within the council and from the council to the community. Forcing them to make a decision they don't agree with sets a bad precedent for the future of BH and devalues the entire purpose of a council.

With that said, I agree that we need to see more communication from the council on why Shedinja shouldn't be tested at this point in time. Then the community can counter-discuss, and so forth... leading to a decision everyone can understand.
Really - They believe Shedinja is a healthy and balanced component and that we're all wrong? Because that's what not wanting a suspect means. A council can decide if it doesn't want a ban, but denying us the prospect of even looking at something we actively do not want in the metagame without rationale is closeminded as fuck. Yes, a council can decide to steer the metagame in a different direction, but declining weeks of rationale on the ground that it's overhyped (two months into the meta LOL) is just dumb and shoving their alternative decision down our throats is even dumber. I don't think for a second that they've earned a break because of the astoundingly poor showing so far, I think they're getting exactly what they've earned.

We wouldn't be forcing anything if they'd just talk to us about why. But they haven't. They don't have the right to call our weeks of rationale overhyped, say nothing else, then forcefully turn our heads to FSMs, again with no rationale. The council has the right to make their own decisions but they have no right to be so full of themselves that they are able to do so without rationale.

Since you say all of the council plays SWSH BH, how many games of SWSH BH have Flint and Will played and when have they played? What alts do they ladder on?

Btw @community I told you a council would suck and you didn't listen. Though admittedly I didn't think it'd be this bad

Also Willdbeast stop being a meme and start being a good council member pls
 
After chatting on Discord with people who are actively playing the meta, I have reached a few conclusions:

1. a new metagame, especially one so shaken up by the removal of many key Pokemon and the addition of several significant items and moves, cannot afford to have an inactive or a passive council. We have only seen occasional activity from single council members who speak for the entirity of the council as if they were a single entity. Having the council members discussing about metagame trends can only be good, and, contrary to what some may believe, does not tarnish the image of the council as a united front. I would argue that well-thought out arguments would lead to council decisions that can be better trusted or at, at least, understood.

2. This council is, as far as we know, riddled with inactivity. Whether they're just not playing on well-known accounts (E4 Flint and Will), or are stretched way too thin (Funbot28), it would be best for both themselves and the metagame if they gave their council spots to people who were more invested. If they don't have interest in playing or are too busy to do so, why stress out about running it? I understand that they are doing their best while fulfilling other obligations, but it seems like a thankless task that others could be dealing with instead. An active council is crucial to a healthy metagame. Action should be taken sooner rather than later, and it will require some people to step up. There are plenty of active, educated, respected posters in this thread; why not add one or two of them to the council?
 
Long Shedinja post ahead!

I've finally reached 1500+ with my fresh alt, BlessYouChild. But for once I had a goal in mind outside of personal satisfaction; I needed to see for myself just how much Shedinja could sway a game, particularly if you built a team around it. Up until I got to about 1430, I actually used 2 Shedinjas, one with Boots and the other with Goggles. The idea was that the item makes non-moldy and status based checks different for each Shed, plus if you die to an unexpected moldy move or wisp/toxic then you still have a backup.
Shedinja @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 Atk
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Pain Split
- Spirit Shackle
- Toxic
- Teleport

Shedinja @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Pain Split
- Spirit Shackle
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock

Melmetal @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Anchor Shot
- Parting Shot
- Wish
- Rapid Spin

Umbreon @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Foul Play
- Soft-Boiled
- Aromatherapy

Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlwind
- Parting Shot
- Aromatherapy
- Roost

Zekrom @ Dragon Memory
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Bolt Beak
- V-create
- Shift Gear

Umbreon as a Geyser/Photon resist plus Bounce for status aimed at Shed (including imposters since they have Toxic) and Melmetal for Sunsteel/Photon and general support. Wob to scout for checks and sometimes counter-sweep, and Zekrom as a wincon outside of Shed. Both Sheds use Toxic to punish switch ins and deal with mirrors.
I'm going to be upfront: this wasn't a super well thought out team. I didn't think about using imposter proofed teammates and the synergies they'd provide (nothing on the team walls Imposters that transform into Zekrom). Just wanted to cover the basics of what support Shed needs. I still managed to perform decently well with this team up until I got past the 1400s.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1039697463
I honestly am really bad at remembering to keep replays but here's one with this team. Shedinja managed to put a ton of pressure on this guy and in this case a lot of support wasn't too necessary.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1039274326
Low ladder but I thought it was cute that I sacked Boots Shed because his team was hail based and Goggles Shed put more work. Also was using TTar but I dropped it maybe 1 game after cause I wanted something with less weaknesses. Zekrom really puts in massive work here.
The team was neat and all but once I got past the 1400s I realized that double Shedinja cannot work in practice against smarter players. So Shed isn't broken in the same way pre-nerf Zacian and Zamazenta were. You can't just put a bunch of Shedinja and win. If they have multiple moldy moves, you will most likely lose. Rather, you need to build a team to make it hard to kill your one Shedinja and eventually pave the way for Shedinja to come in and declare victory. This version in particular lost to Kyurem W with a moldy move unless I could find an opening to sweep with Zekrom, as well as setup sweepers with moldy moves.
Shedinja @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 Atk
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Pain Split
- Spirit Shackle
- Toxic
- Teleport

Darmanitan-Zen @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lava Plume
- Nature Power
- Haze
- Roost

Melmetal @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Sunsteel Strike
- Parting Shot
- Wish
- Court Change

Umbreon @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Soft-Boiled
- Aromatherapy

Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlwind
- Parting Shot
- Aromatherapy
- Roost

Zekrom @ Dragon Memory
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Bolt Beak
- V-create
- Shift Gear

Same stuff except Darm is there to deal with Kyu W better, as well as be another switch in to Sunsteel/Photon and crucially to deal with setup sweepers that Shed dies to. It also helps against Zekrom Imposters thanks to Prankster working well vs Bolt Beak. Also replaced Foul Play on Umbreon with Wisp to help vs opposing Sheds, which became very common at higher ladder.
Slightly better team synergy here but largely the same. Wob became a lot more important to scout. Again, not the greatest team, but that's what surprised me though. I was using a shoddily crafted team carried mainly by Zekrom and Shedinja and managed to get 45/8 with 84% GXE. I don't usually share teams unless I know they're good, which I don't believe this is. Yet I performed well with it. It really does make me feel like Shedinja is a problem. Several people had to forfeit if I got rid of their answer(s) to Shed because if you don't have every Pokemon carry an answer, it will find an opportunity at some point. I also think Bolt Beak is a problem, especially with Mold Breaker, Intepid Sword, and Electric Surge or ES+Surge Surfer. There's almost nothing that switches into it safely at +1 except for ground types and x4 resists, and with MB you can't even rely on Fur Coat or Unaware. I got tons of sweeps with Zekrom, and honestly this is my new favorite set for him. I still wouldve probably been better off using my old Galvanize one just so Shed can Improof him. I don't have the replays but there were games where it came down to just Shedinja and Umbreon or Melmetal vs 3 or 4 Pokemon and I managed to pull a victory by either stalling with Shed and switching in and out, or just using Shed to kill everything while using Umbreon/Melmetal to absorb hits that'd kill Shed, and using Toxic on switch to deal with the threats to it. I beat rrrgggg a couple times like this, and I know he's pretty high on the ladder. Plus, there were so. many. Shedinja teams on the ladder. Who could blame them? Shed is an Improofer, a hazard setter, hazard remover, slow pivot, hard wall, stall wincon, and breaker depending on the moveset. Many times it takes on 4 or 5 of these roles at once and does them all effectively. I'm no top player but even I can see Shedinja has a strong grip on the meta. No Kyu W would ever run Moongeist as coverage and yet multiple people did so just for Shed. Same for Sunsteel on Zekrom. Terrible coverage but necessary for Shed. It's the only Pokemon that demands coverage solely for it. Toxic and Wisp are probably the only moves any Pokemon can run that wouldn't be subpar vs other Pokemon. Of course Sunsteel on steels isn't bad but as coverage they aren't good. I think at least considering a suspect would be a good idea.

On a side note, Regenerator Melmetal is the only pokemon I think uses Regenerator viably. Finally I can use Regenerator without looking like a fool lol. Wish+Parting Shot came up so many times to give Zekrom or Wob second and third chances. Don't underestimate!

Edit: SIDE side note: forgot to mention that I don't think the council is BAD for not wanting to suspect Shedinja, but if we consider the council as a governing body meant to lead and guide with the people's best interest, then ignoring the wishes of everyone is just not a good look. I don't want to bash anyone and yeah some of the comments have been harsh, but really if you truly are listening to what everyone wants and feels is important and you want the process to be democratic and fair for us all, you will suspect things that we feel are pressing, including Shedinja or provide good reason as to why you won't. That's all, with all due respect.
 
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Interesting. I may have to consider it. Depending on its effect.
Thanks for doing the research.

I wonder what this effect will have on the metagame. Is it an option for Fire types like Reshiram?
Max Flare has no effect while you are not dynamaxed. It's just 100 BP Physical Fire attack with 8 PP. Since Max Flare is unique in having 100 BP instead of 10, this feels more like a data entry error on PS's part than a accurate reflection of cart mechanics. Though maybe I'm wrong, I can't actually test that.

You can also put Max Guard into your normal moveslot to completely protect yourself from Max Moves without using your own dynamax, although it also has a measly 8 PP, so I'm not sure if it is worth running over other protect clones that have 16 PP.
 
Max Flare having 100 BP actually is accurate to cart, I assume it's a typo on Game Freak's part. That said, the move is still almost completely outclassed by other physical Fire moves which offer more power, more utility, or both.

On the council: I don't really want to join in the dogpile, but I will say that I've been a bit frustrated about the council's inactivity and lack of transparency. I agree with SL42 about the kokoloko tiering method: I think it's ideal for a tier like BH and is the best way to get the metagame to a balanced state as quickly as possible.

Some thoughts on some mons in the current meta:
1578477454206.png

The hype has died down, and Dragapult has dropped off almost completely. The Normalise set is incomparable to last gen's NormGar: its serious lack of power and the fact that Dynamaxed Pokemon are unaffected by Entrainment renders it incapable of posing a serious threat to most teams. I've experimented with non-Normalise sets like Shell Smash Multi-Attack and Choice Band Intrepid Sword, but they're mediocre overall.

1578476952014.png

At this point Melmetal has cemented itself as one of the most important Pokemon in the tier. Its best sets are Fur Coat, Flash Fire/Primordial Sea, Prankster, Magic Bounce, and Ice Scales, and it has a number of more niche sets beyond this. Melmetal's prevalence really hinders the viability of physical attackers that struggle to break it, like Kyurem-B, Dragapult, Zacian, Zacian-C, Solgaleo, Necrozma-DM, and Snorlax. A lot of Pokemon run V-Create basically just for Melm, and I've seen Kyu-B running Blue Flare to get past the Fur Coat set. All of its sets are extremely flexible and easily fit onto a range of teams, to the extent that running multiples is completely valid.

1578477378919.png

Melm's popularity is partially responsible for the huge uptick in Darmanitan-GZ usage lately, as physical attackers that can force out Melm are very useful and often hard to come by. In particular, the Mold Breaker Choice Band set is obnoxiously difficult to switch into while also having an excellent speed tier, and I've started running Primordial Sea rather than Flash Fire on Steel-types to deal with it. Really important to keep up hazards against this thing. Refrigerate sets have fallen off I've found, as priority is pretty bad against Dynamax and it can't really threaten to OHKO stuff the same way Choice Band sets can. Scarf sets have been popping up as well, and I think they're quite good too: V-Create is so stupidly powerful that the extra power from Choice Band is often unnecessary and it checks Zacian-C very effectively.

1578476984600.png
@
1578477412512.png

PH Zamazenta is really well-positioned at the moment I feel. It can run offensive utility sets like MMX did last gen, but that set is a little awkward now mainly because Low Kick just isn't very good anymore. Not only does it not work on Dynamaxed Pokemon, but the powering down of the tier has meant that there are a lot of Pokemon running around that are quite light and don't take much damage from Low Kick, so it's a bit unreliable. The best option is Close Combat, but due to that move's low PP and defense drops it's not that well suited for sets that want to stick around for a long time. However, I'm a big fan of this set with Shift Gear:

Zamazenta @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shift Gear
- Close Combat
- Knock Off / Earthquake / Bolt Beak / Sunsteel Strike
- Will-O-Wisp / Spore

This can force a ton of switches to get set up, and if your coverage lines up well against your opponent's team it can be challenging to deal with long-term. I'm finding that Poison Heal is not very well-prepared for at the moment as stuff like Entrainment has fallen out of favour.

1578477432918.png

Kyurem-B has also dropped off quite hard. It has a lot of trouble getting past Melmetal, who I think is the most common Pokemon in the tier, and Dynamaxing makes it a lot less effective as a revenge killer. Additionally, Darm gives it a ton of competition for most of its sets. I've found Kyu-B to be really hard to justify running. I think its best set atm is a utility Refrigerate set with Heavy-Duty Boots and Rapid Spin.

1578476975194.png

Zacian is yet to really find its place I think. Offensively, it lacks power because its STAB options are weak and it usually can't get past Melmetal. Defensively, its resistances aren't particularly relevant and its bulk isn't quite good enough to switch into much. I've tried out a number of Zacian sets and even when they look good on paper I find that they don't really do much in practice. Maybe there's a really good Zacian set out there just waiting to be discovered, but I wouldn't bet on it. The metagame is very unkind to it. If only there was a good physical Fairy move...

1578476929346.png

Gourgeist-Super is a neat defensive Pokemon that I think is quite good right now. With Fur Coat, Prankster, or Poison Heal it can take on a lot of common Bolt Beak/Fishious Rend users, as well as Shedinja, Zamazenta, and some miscellaneous mons like Excadrill. The Ground resist is really nice, as it's often quite difficult to fit one of those onto a team and STAB Spectral Thief from Gourgeist's 100 base Attack can hit surprisingly hard. Its weaknesses to Spectral Thief and Knock Off are annoying, and it gets ganked by a surprise V-Create quite often, but despite this I've found room for it on a lot of teams recently.

1578476940923.png
@
1578481238380.png

Ghost resists are becoming even scarcer due to Dragapult's plummeting popularity, which is great for Choice Specs Adaptability Lunala, one of the most underrated wallbreakers in the tier at the moment. Great STABs, a speed tier that puts it ahead of the Unova Dragons, and very good bulk combine to make Lunala a threat that many teams aren't really prepared to deal with. What's cool about Lunala is that Moongeist Beam and Psystrike allow it to get past pretty much any Ice Scales mon, which is what a lot of teams rely on to blanket check special attackers in the absence of versatile special walls. Its issue is that while very little can avoid being 2HKOd by Lunala, it doesn't actually threaten to OHKO many things, so it can struggle to force switches.

Lunala @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Psystrike
- Volt Switch
- Blue Flare / Secret Sword / Focus Blast / Trick

1578479844929.png

Excadrill has been picking up quite a bit lately as well. I'm a big fan of Choice Band sets like this one:

Excadrill @ Choice Band
Ability: Intrepid Sword / Adaptability / Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Sunsteel Strike / Double Iron Bash
- U-turn / Double Iron Bash
- Bolt Beak / Extreme Speed / Double Iron Bash

Excadrill's Earthquake is very difficult to switch into, as so many of the best Pokemon in the tier are weak to Ground and resists are often hard to come by. It's secondary STAB in Sunsteel Strike and/or Double Iron Bash lets it get past Fur Coat users and pretty much anything else that can switch into Earthquake. It's role as a physical wallbreaker that not only breaks Melmetal but also can usually safely switch into it is very valuable. Compared to other wallbreakers its speed tier is unimpressive, but it offers meaningful defensive synergy by being immune to Bolt Beak. It also can run a decent Scarf set, but that one is not quite as potent and often outclassed. The boosting sets with Ground-type Multi-Attack are ok but a little bit gimmicky I think, the fact that they can't run Shell Smash without losing to Imposter is pretty wack and makes it way less appealing to me compared to some other Imposter-proof boosting sweeper like Marshadow.

On future suspects:

I'm in favour of suspecting Bolt Beak and maybe Fishious Rend in future, but I think they should be dealt with separately and not tiered as a unit. Despite having the same mechanics, the metagame impact of these moves is very different. Bolt Beak has very strong STAB abusers in Zekrom and Zeraora and is useful as a coverage move for a lot of threats. Fishious Rend's best STAB abusers are Barraskewda and Gyarados, certainly a step down, and the only things that want to run it as coverage are Electrics trying to hit bulky Grounds. I think Bolt Beak is far more problematic and I think there's a good chance I would vote to ban it in a suspect, but I don't really feel the same way about Fishious Rend, which feels easier to handle both in the teambuilder and in battle. The complication is that users of both of these moves frequently run the other as coverage: Bolt Beak might be easier to manage if Fishious Rend were gone, and vice versa. Regardless, I think the best course of action regarding these moves is to deal with Bolt Beak first and then assess Fishious Rend.

I've said before that I think Dynamaxing isn't as plainly broken in BH as it is in other tiers, that we have the tools to deal with it offensively, and that it offers valuable defensive utility. I still believe this, but I'm coming to feel that it may be problematic for the way that it makes many Pokemon difficult to check offensively. The power increase and stat boosts isn't a big deal in BH, but frail offensive threats being able to double their bulk at will to avoid being revenge-killed can be very obnoxious and creates a lot of high-stakes 50/50s. I feel like this may not be healthy for the metagame in the long run, but I'm still unsure to what extent this is just me still maybe not being fully accustomed to the mechanic.
 
Max Flare having 100 BP actually is accurate to cart, I assume it's a typo on Game Freak's part. That said, the move is still almost completely outclassed by other physical Fire moves which offer more power, more utility, or both.
It actually could be useful - Pyro Ball has a nasty 90% accurracy and V-Create has the stat drops (but is so good anyway). Pyro Ball might be useful for some calcs but im too lazy to do those
EDIT: forgot fire lash existed
 
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you could theoretically put multi-attack with fairy memory/pixilate or use pixilate with body slam/extreme speed to get a physical fairy type move above 80 power that isn't 90% accurate
The point is, even with a extremely good fairy move with the power level of v-create, there are still so many resists in the meta that almost completely checks/counters it, like Melmetal, Toxapex, Aegislash, Darmanitan-Zen, etc. It doesn’t even have that high of an attacking stat.

I've said before that I think Dynamaxing isn't as plainly broken in BH as it is in other tiers, that we have the tools to deal with it offensively, and that it offers valuable defensive utility. I still believe this, but I'm coming to feel that it may be problematic for the way that it makes many Pokemon difficult to check offensively. The power increase and stat boosts isn't a big deal in BH, but frail offensive threats being able to double their bulk at will to avoid being revenge-killed can be very obnoxious and creates a lot of high-stakes 50/50s. I feel like this may not be healthy for the metagame in the long run, but I'm still unsure to what extent this is just me still maybe not being fully accustomed to the mechanic.
I agree here, as failing to revenge-kill a frail attacker like DarmanitanGZ could cost you the whole game, even when you had the advantage and are waiting for the W. Dynamaxing also lets sweepers get boosts/support from Max Moves setting terrains or weather, making problematic things like Bolt Beak spammers even more problematic. The doubled HP also makes attackers take less damage from recoil (mainly Life Orb) so they get 2/3 more turns of sweeping before Life Orb kills it. Mons running ice/rock moves can also set hail/sand respectively to kill Shed, which idk if it is a good thing... we have to wait for what council decides on Shed suspect. But after all, it’s just three turns of disaster, and Dynamaxed mons can be easily forced out in BH, unlike other metagames. I think Dynamax can also be discussed later as the meta develops.

Btw hope the council can take action on Shed as soon as possible :)
 
Dynamax isn't the worst thing in this meta, but one thing that absolutely irks me is when choiced Pokemon dynamax. Just when you think you can get the one up on them and exploit the one (necessary) weakness choice mons have, they dynamax and your check dies to Max coverage and now you're at a massive disadvantage. Since many frail attackers tend to run choice items (such as the aforementioned Darm GZ) it ends up compounding to the previously mentioned problem of frail attackers gaining bulk to survive a would be revenge killer. It sucks because outside of that Dynamax is pretty interesting in BH and it's the only meta where it doesn't feel like a complete unbalanced mess.
 
Max Flare having 100 BP actually is accurate to cart, I assume it's a typo on Game Freak's part. That said, the move is still almost completely outclassed by other physical Fire moves which offer more power, more utility, or both.

On the council: I don't really want to join in the dogpile, but I will say that I've been a bit frustrated about the council's inactivity and lack of transparency. I agree with SL42 about the kokoloko tiering method: I think it's ideal for a tier like BH and is the best way to get the metagame to a balanced state as quickly as possible.

Some thoughts on some mons in the current meta:
View attachment 217470
The hype has died down, and Dragapult has dropped off almost completely. The Normalise set is incomparable to last gen's NormGar: its serious lack of power and the fact that Dynamaxed Pokemon are unaffected by Entrainment renders it incapable of posing a serious threat to most teams. I've experimented with non-Normalise sets like Shell Smash Multi-Attack and Choice Band Intrepid Sword, but they're mediocre overall.

View attachment 217462
At this point Melmetal has cemented itself as one of the most important Pokemon in the tier. Its best sets are Fur Coat, Flash Fire/Primordial Sea, Prankster, Magic Bounce, and Ice Scales, and it has a number of more niche sets beyond this. Melmetal's prevalence really hinders the viability of physical attackers that struggle to break it, like Kyurem-B, Dragapult, Zacian, Zacian-C, Solgaleo, Necrozma-DM, and Snorlax. A lot of Pokemon run V-Create basically just for Melm, and I've seen Kyu-B running Blue Flare to get past the Fur Coat set. All of its sets are extremely flexible and easily fit onto a range of teams, to the extent that running multiples is completely valid.

View attachment 217467
Melm's popularity is partially responsible for the huge uptick in Darmanitan-GZ usage lately, as physical attackers that can force out Melm are very useful and often hard to come by. In particular, the Mold Breaker Choice Band set is obnoxiously difficult to switch into while also having an excellent speed tier, and I've started running Primordial Sea rather than Flash Fire on Steel-types to deal with it. Really important to keep up hazards against this thing. Refrigerate sets have fallen off I've found, as priority is pretty bad against Dynamax and it can't really threaten to OHKO stuff the same way Choice Band sets can. Scarf sets have been popping up as well, and I think they're quite good too: V-Create is so stupidly powerful that the extra power from Choice Band is often unnecessary and it checks Zacian-C very effectively.

View attachment 217464@View attachment 217468
PH Zamazenta is really well-positioned at the moment I feel. It can run offensive utility sets like MMX did last gen, but that set is a little awkward now mainly because Low Kick just isn't very good anymore. Not only does it not work on Dynamaxed Pokemon, but the powering down of the tier has meant that there are a lot of Pokemon running around that are quite light and don't take much damage from Low Kick, so it's a bit unreliable. The best option is Close Combat, but due to that move's low PP and defense drops it's not that well suited for sets that want to stick around for a long time. However, I'm a big fan of this set with Shift Gear:

Zamazenta @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shift Gear
- Close Combat
- Knock Off / Earthquake / Bolt Beak / Sunsteel Strike
- Will-O-Wisp / Spore

This can force a ton of switches to get set up, and if your coverage lines up well against your opponent's team it can be challenging to deal with long-term. I'm finding that Poison Heal is not very well-prepared for at the moment as stuff like Entrainment has fallen out of favour.

View attachment 217469
Kyurem-B has also dropped off quite hard. It has a lot of trouble getting past Melmetal, who I think is the most common Pokemon in the tier, and Dynamaxing makes it a lot less effective as a revenge killer. Additionally, Darm gives it a ton of competition for most of its sets. I've found Kyu-B to be really hard to justify running. I think its best set atm is a utility Refrigerate set with Heavy-Duty Boots and Rapid Spin.

View attachment 217463
Zacian is yet to really find its place I think. Offensively, it lacks power because its STAB options are weak and it usually can't get past Melmetal. Defensively, its resistances aren't particularly relevant and its bulk isn't quite good enough to switch into much. I've tried out a number of Zacian sets and even when they look good on paper I find that they don't really do much in practice. Maybe there's a really good Zacian set out there just waiting to be discovered, but I wouldn't bet on it. The metagame is very unkind to it. If only there was a good physical Fairy move...

View attachment 217460
Gourgeist-Super is a neat defensive Pokemon that I think is quite good right now. With Fur Coat, Prankster, or Poison Heal it can take on a lot of common Bolt Beak/Fishious Rend users, as well as Shedinja, Zamazenta, and some miscellaneous mons like Excadrill. The Ground resist is really nice, as it's often quite difficult to fit one of those onto a team and STAB Spectral Thief from Gourgeist's 100 base Attack can hit surprisingly hard. Its weaknesses to Spectral Thief and Knock Off are annoying, and it gets ganked by a surprise V-Create quite often, but despite this I've found room for it on a lot of teams recently.

View attachment 217461@View attachment 217481
Ghost resists are becoming even scarcer due to Dragapult's plummeting popularity, which is great for Choice Specs Adaptability Lunala, one of the most underrated wallbreakers in the tier at the moment. Great STABs, a speed tier that puts it ahead of the Unova Dragons, and very good bulk combine to make Lunala a threat that many teams aren't really prepared to deal with. What's cool about Lunala is that Moongeist Beam and Psystrike allow it to get past pretty much any Ice Scales mon, which is what a lot of teams rely on to blanket check special attackers in the absence of versatile special walls. Its issue is that while very little can avoid being 2HKOd by Lunala, it doesn't actually threaten to OHKO many things, so it can struggle to force switches.

Lunala @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Psystrike
- Volt Switch
- Blue Flare / Secret Sword / Focus Blast / Trick

View attachment 217473
Excadrill has been picking up quite a bit lately as well. I'm a big fan of Choice Band sets like this one:

Excadrill @ Choice Band
Ability: Intrepid Sword / Adaptability / Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Sunsteel Strike / Double Iron Bash
- U-turn / Double Iron Bash
- Bolt Beak / Extreme Speed / Double Iron Bash

Excadrill's Earthquake is very difficult to switch into, as so many of the best Pokemon in the tier are weak to Ground and resists are often hard to come by. It's secondary STAB in Sunsteel Strike and/or Double Iron Bash lets it get past Fur Coat users and pretty much anything else that can switch into Earthquake. It's role as a physical wallbreaker that not only breaks Melmetal but also can usually safely switch into it is very valuable. Compared to other wallbreakers its speed tier is unimpressive, but it offers meaningful defensive synergy by being immune to Bolt Beak. It also can run a decent Scarf set, but that one is not quite as potent and often outclassed. The boosting sets with Ground-type Multi-Attack are ok but a little bit gimmicky I think, the fact that they can't run Shell Smash without losing to Imposter is pretty wack and makes it way less appealing to me compared to some other Imposter-proof boosting sweeper like Marshadow.

On future suspects:

I'm in favour of suspecting Bolt Beak and maybe Fishious Rend in future, but I think they should be dealt with separately and not tiered as a unit. Despite having the same mechanics, the metagame impact of these moves is very different. Bolt Beak has very strong STAB abusers in Zekrom and Zeraora and is useful as a coverage move for a lot of threats. Fishious Rend's best STAB abusers are Barraskewda and Gyarados, certainly a step down, and the only things that want to run it as coverage are Electrics trying to hit bulky Grounds. I think Bolt Beak is far more problematic and I think there's a good chance I would vote to ban it in a suspect, but I don't really feel the same way about Fishious Rend, which feels easier to handle both in the teambuilder and in battle. The complication is that users of both of these moves frequently run the other as coverage: Bolt Beak might be easier to manage if Fishious Rend were gone, and vice versa. Regardless, I think the best course of action regarding these moves is to deal with Bolt Beak first and then assess Fishious Rend.

I've said before that I think Dynamaxing isn't as plainly broken in BH as it is in other tiers, that we have the tools to deal with it offensively, and that it offers valuable defensive utility. I still believe this, but I'm coming to feel that it may be problematic for the way that it makes many Pokemon difficult to check offensively. The power increase and stat boosts isn't a big deal in BH, but frail offensive threats being able to double their bulk at will to avoid being revenge-killed can be very obnoxious and creates a lot of high-stakes 50/50s. I feel like this may not be healthy for the metagame in the long run, but I'm still unsure to what extent this is just me still maybe not being fully accustomed to the mechanic.
Hey, Excadrill, could Tough Claws High Horsepower, and keep the rest of its moves. This replaces Adaptability for your proposed set.

Also, I think Kyurem-White is now competing with Mold Breaker Reshiram as a premier Wall Breaker. Bypassing Flash Fire, and having solid coverage between its STABs removes the need for Earth Power and enables additional coverage moves.

Lastly, Toxapex and Darmanitan-Z are actually having to compete with Ice Scales / RegenVest Primarina on Imposterproofing and handling Special Attackers. Primarina is the official GOAT Starter for this Generation.

One note; I think people are forgetting about Sheer Force, which can pair nicely with Icicle Crash, Pyro Ball, Bolt Strike, etc. to bluff Choice sets and partner nicely with Life Orb, serving as, you know, that item that maintains getting a boost during Dynamax as well. Sheer Force makes it that much easier to Imposterproof as well, removing things like Burn from Pyro Ball for your own Shedinja to handle Imposter.

Lastly, I am still surprised people are using Corsola over Dusclops. The 8.25% bulk difference is like a free Leftovers heal. Sure; it’s cuter, but I hope to see Dusclops rise as the main Ghost-tank as oftentimes its just not thought of by newer players.

In either case, good overall analysis. Proud of you for putting it together. It came off nicely.

——————
The point is, even with a extremely good fairy move with the power level of v-create, there are still so many resists in the meta that almost completely checks/counters it, like Melmetal, Toxapex, Aegislash, Darmanitan-Zen, etc. It doesn’t even have that high of an attacking stat.


I agree here, as failing to revenge-kill a frail attacker like DarmanitanGZ could cost you the whole game, even when you had the advantage and are waiting for the W. Dynamaxing also lets sweepers get boosts/support from Max Moves setting terrains or weather, making problematic things like Bolt Beak spammers even more problematic. The doubled HP also makes attackers take less damage from recoil (mainly Life Orb) so they get 2/3 more turns of sweeping before Life Orb kills it. Mons running ice/rock moves can also set hail/sand respectively to kill Shed, which idk if it is a good thing... we have to wait for what council decides on Shed suspect. But after all, it’s just three turns of disaster, and Dynamaxed mons can be easily forced out in BH, unlike other metagames. I think Dynamax can also be discussed later as the meta develops.

Btw hope the council can take action on Shed as soon as possible :)
Speaking of Dynamax, how do you feel about Behemoth Blade, and Dynamax Cannon, etc.?

Is it worth running?

As for Life Orb; you still lose the same amount of HP, it just looks less.

Say you have 100 HP, Life Orb removes 10 HP.
Now 90 HP.

You Dynamax to 200 HP, you attack, you still lose 10, which shows as 5% of 200. So 180 of 200.

Thus, once it wears off you are at the same HP as you would have been if you didn’t Dynamax, so 80 / 100.
 
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E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Community Leader Alumnus
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Here's an announcement of our own:
It was never our intention to force start a suspect, we simply wished to move discussion in the direction of FSMs. However, we heard your feedback loud and clear. We have planned on launching a suspect test for Shedinja very soon, and we'll try to make it as smooth an experience as possible for everyone.
We are also steadily working on launching our resources so expect more announcements from the BHC on that front too.
We will continue to be as responsive to your feedback as possible. Thanks
 
Samples Time

With the BH Open coming up and many new or estranged players (hopefully) looking to get involved it's about time we got some samples out. As I mentioned the aim is to get these sorted by around the time the Open signups close so as to make it easier for people joining and as such this should hopefully be more speedy than usual.

You know how this works by now. Post good teams you have tested properly, preferably ones that aren't too hard to pick up and use.

What you need to put (copied from E4 Flint 's last request in USUM)
  • Your name of the team (this will appear in my screenshot from ps!)
  • A generic one-liner description of what the team does, which will be put with your name above the screenshot. If you don't provide a name, I am planning on just using this inside the screenshot too if it fits. If you don't provide either of these, we will make a description for you and use it.
  • Your team on pokepaste (or other text hosting service if you want) (try to include the above two points in pokepaste, but anything else is upto you).
  • How to use your team: try to answer the following - what are the effective combo pieces, what should you open with, what are some popular threats or playstyles your team is able to answer. Don't worry too much about this being a whole RMT though!
  • (NEW or at least it was when Flint posted this) What sets or playstyles your team is weak to: maybe some quick changes that are suggested with a note about how it changes your mu, but this is not required.
  • How effective is your team: why should someone use it? here you can add an rmt if you've written one but definitely some ladder/tour experience, possibly with a replay or two.
Hopefully we can get a range of different playstyles of team so there's something for everyone.

Submissions will be open one week so hopefully we can decide on the best and have them posted by the end of next weekend. This might be a smaller than usual update though due to the meta being so new and the possibility of bans soon, so don't be surprised if we have to do this again in a month.

Thanks in advance to everyone!
 
Team name: It's Prayer Time
Team importable: https://pokepast.es/e7a8c3d447da2169
Short description: Bulky offensive team with plenty of options to win
How to use the team: view my RMT: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bh-its-prayer-time-peaked-top-10-ladder-1588-elo.3658236/
and replace Mamoswine with Excadrill
matchups: works well against bulky/slow paced teams who rely on a sturdy defensive core such as FC Melmetal + Toxapex + Shedinja to counter threats;
Matches well against fast offensive teams who rely on immediately fast wallbreakers such as fast Band/Scarf users, but may fail against the uncommon weather offense teams
matches poorly against normal-type setup because of no Imposter or Prank Haze, but you can run Topsy-Turvy on Type: Null to deal with setup users not running Substitute.
Matches poorly against Shell Smash spam (one or two should not be a problem)
 
Unsure if Nintendo Direct news is a spoiler so I'll keep this hidden. Inside I'll discuss the potential viability of some of the different mons we've been able to so far this generation.
So recent news tells us we are getting back 200+ mons, including the past generation legendary mons as well as some BH relevant mons like Chansey. While most or all of these mons won't be available until June 2020 at the earliest, I wanted to look ahead at the mons that will likely lose their viability in Gen 8 BH as a result. Without going into a ton of detail on these, I'll lay this out by stating the new mon and following with the mons who might lose viability on their arrival. I won't include every new mon or legendary but will hit some important ones.
:chansey: / :blissey:
Chansey / Blissey - Wobbuffet, Munchlax, Snorlax, Drifblim, and Wailord will no longer be seen as Imposter.
:ho-oh:
Ho-Oh - Torkoal will face stiff competition as a defensive Fire-type once Ho-Oh is available.
:groudon:
Groudon - Hippowdon is outclassed by Groudon in every way. Groudon's pure Ground typing also gives benefits over the exploitable typing of Rhydon and Rhyperior. It will also compete with Excadrill as an offensive Ground-type even while lacking a useful secondary Steel typing.
:kyogre:
Kyogre - Jellicent, Primarina, and Seismitoad all have nice typings, but Kyogre's mixed bulk is better and offers more offensive presence.
:rayquaza:
Rayquaza - Gyarados will have competition as an offensive Flying-type, even though Fishious Rend is the main reason it sees usage.
:giratina:
Giratina - Doublade, Dusclops, Aegislash, Gourgeist-Super, Jellicent and Runerigus will all envy Giratina's massive 150/120/120 bulk. Aegislash will still stand apart thanks to its Steel typing, but the other's niches will definitely get smaller.
:dialga:
Dialga - There was no reason to use Duraludon, but Dialga will likely make Steel-types like Ferrothorn Steelix, and Escavalier more niche options thanks to its nice typing, bulk, and offenses.
:regigigas:
Regigigas - Snorlax will face competition as a bulky Normal-type. Snorlax will have a niche of being incredibly slow and having better special bulk, but Regigigas will bring back PH Facade sweeper sets.
:yveltal:
Yveltal - Most certainly Mandibuzz and likely Umbreon will see no usage with Yveltal around. It also gives Gyarados more competition as an offensive Flying-type.
:xerneas:
Xerneas - Zacian is outclassed by Xerneas in every way other than Speed.
:tapu fini:
Tapu Fini - With less offensive presence, Fini is clearly a better defensive option than Primarina.
:tapu koko:
Tapu Koko - Zeraora is faster, but a secondary Fairy-type and slightly more power will make Koko an interesting Bolt Beak user (if it is still legal by then).
1578599759038.png

Urshifu - Its stats are unknown, but being a legendary means they will likely be pretty good. The Water/Fighting variant could potentially compete with Seismitoad as a bulky Steel resist.
 
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Unsure if Nintendo Direct news is a spoiler so I'll keep this hidden. Inside I'll discuss the potential viability of some of the different mons we've been able to so far this generation.
So recent news tells us we are getting back 200+ mons, including the past generation legendary mons as well as some BH relevant mons like Chansey. While most or all of these mons won't be available until June 2020 at the earliest, I wanted to look ahead at the mons that will likely lose their viability in Gen 8 BH as a result. Without going into a ton of detail on these, I'll lay this out by stating the new mon and following with the mons who might lose viability on their arrival. I won't include every new mon or legendary but will hit some important ones.
:chansey: / :blissey:
Chansey / Blissey - Wobbuffet, Munchlax, Snorlax, Drifblim, and Wailord will no longer be seen as Imposter.
:ho-oh:
Ho-Oh - Torkoal will face stiff competition as a defensive Fire-type once Ho-Oh is available.
:groudon:
Groudon - Hippowdon is outclassed by Groudon in every way. Groudon's pure Ground typing also gives benefits over the exploitable typing of Rhydon and Rhyperior. It will also compete with Excadrill as an offensive Ground-type even while lacking a useful secondary Steel typing.
:kyogre:
Kyogre - Jellicent, Primarina, and Seismitoad all have nice typings, but Kyogre's mixed bulk is better and offers more offensive presence.
:rayquaza:
Rayquaza - Gyarados will have competition as an offensive Flying-type, even though Fishious Rend is the main reason it sees usage.
:giratina:
Giratina - Doublade, Dusclops, Aegislash, Gourgeist-Super, Jellicent and Runerigus will all envy Giratina's massive 150/120/120 bulk. Aegislash will still stand apart thanks to its Steel typing, but the other's niches will definitely get smaller.
:dialga:
Dialga - There was no reason to use Duraludon, but Dialga will likely make Steel-types like Ferrothorn Steelix, and Escavalier more niche options thanks to its nice typing, bulk, and offenses.
:regigigas:
Regigigas - Snorlax will face competition as a bulky Normal-type. Snorlax will have a niche of being incredibly slow and having better special bulk, but Regigigas will bring back PH Facade sweeper sets.
:yveltal:
Yveltal - Most certainly Mandibuzz and likely Umbreon will see no usage with Yveltal around. It also gives Gyarados more competition as an offensive Flying-type.
:xerneas:
Xerneas - Zacian is outclassed by Xerneas in every way other than Speed.
:tapu fini:
Tapu Fini - With less offensive presence, Fini is clearly a better defensive option than Primarina.
:tapu koko:
Tapu Koko - Zeraora is faster, but a secondary Fairy-type and slightly more power will make Koko an interesting Bolt Beak user (if it is still legal by then).
View attachment 217656
Urshifu - Its stats are unknown, but being a legendary means they will likely be pretty good. The Water/Fighting variant could potentially compete Seismitoad's as a bulky Steel resist.
It is worth mentioning that these Pokémon coming back means that in all likelihood that their signature moves will become available again, reintroducing moves like Geomancy, Dragon Ascent, Sacred Fire and Thousand Arrows in the metagame.
 
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calyrex.png
Balloon deer with stilts for legs lol

Aside from that I'm pretty excited for all the new additions! Except Chansey but that's a topic for another discussion. The new Regis look super cool, and Urshifu looks like it'll be very interesting. All the old legendaries that are coming back are gonna really spice things up. Groudon in particular might help balance out Bolt Beak a little if Beak isn't gone by then, and Kyogre should be a decent check to Darm ZG and Kyu W, same for Fini. Ho Oh with Boots will be very interesting. Giratina is really big, it'll easily be the best defensive Ghost in the tier and help check a lot of threats. Oblivion Wing is back so we'll most likely see the return of Triage sets, though there's less abusers and Tail Glow still isn't a thing. We'll have to see but Rayquaza will probably still do CM+Triage, and people will use Zapdos since it gets Parabolic Charge. There's so much to talk about but those are some things that came to mind.
 
Team Name: Boogie Nights
Short Description:
Balance that focuses around pivoting and two strong breakers
How to use the team: This team is pretty straightforward, and features two Poison Heal setup sweepers along with a very strong Intrepid Sword Zamazenta, which has very limited switchins. It's important to utilize Teleport or other pivoting early game in order to get the Poison Heal users in safely, or in order to bring Zamazenta in more freely. Zamazenta is absolutely devastating for most teams, so make sure to apply pressure with it, but don't be overly reckless with it or else you could easily lose it. Mewtwo is a great Dynamax users as well.
For defensive options, Prankster Melmetal and Fur Coat Seismitoad cover a large portion of the meta, with Prankster Haze being one of the best setup control options and Fur Coat Seis covering threatening electric-types in Zekrom and Zeraora. Mandibuzz is a solid improof to Mewtwo, and is a solid Magic Bounce user in general, being able to check Entrainment Dragapult (bad mon) and in general block hazards. I still prefer minimum speed on Teleport users in order to underspeed other Teleport users.
Overall the team is pretty easy to pick up and has some solid offensive options that can break through some common balances effectively, while still functioning well against other offense.
Weak match-ups: Reshiram is probably the most difficult matchup for the team, as it beats the main check to setup, Melmetal, and blows through secondary options. One option to help curb this weakness would be to make Mandibuzz +SpD and have Spectral Thief over Teleport.
Effectiveness: As someone who isn't a BH main by any means, but pays attention to the meta from an outside perspective, I think this team was something that was easy for me to use and I think would be something that other people could pick up easily as well.

That being said, I'm well aware that I'm not a BH main nor am I confident in my skills as a BH player, but BH this gen has been genuinely enjoyable so far and I hope to contribute more to it in the future, so this post hopefully is a good place to start.
 
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Team Name: Burning Snowman
Short Description: Balanced Offense built around strong Physical and Special attackers
How to use the team: Keep pressure on the opposing team with Eternatus and Darmanitan-Galar-Zen's strong breaking potential. Darm-G-Z can beat most offensive mons with its Choice Scarf and sun-boosted V-create, while Eternatus handles the FF/Primsea Steels that force Darm-G-Z out. Solgaleo and Melmetal improof Eternatus and Darm-G-Z, respectively, and either trap or force out Imposter users. They also serve to check opposing physical and special threats. Kyurem-Black uses Heavy Duty Boots to clean hazards to protect Darm-G-Z with -ate Rapid Spin while also revenge killing with Extreme Speed and 2HKOing Melmetal that aren't immune to Fire. Snorlax helps check setup threats with Haze and Encore and has a useful Normal typing to force out Dragapult and Choice Specs Lunala.
Match-ups: Water attacks like Fishious Rend are dangerous to this team, but can be kept at bay as long as Darm-G-Z and resists like Kyurem-Black and Eternatus are healthy. Electric attacks like Bolt Beak from Zeraora can also pose a threat if the opposing team gains momentum. However, common Bolt Beak users are revenge killed by Darm-G-Z and Kyurem-Black. Choice Band over Choice Scarf is an option on Darm-G-Z, but it makes the matchup with Zacian-C much more difficult.
Effectiveness: This team has given me success on the ladder, recently reaching #2 after a run with it. The breakers are fairly straightforward to use and the improofs are effective while not being niche when facing opposing threats. Below are two replays against good players from when Melmetal was an Escavalier.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1039916420
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1039664529

Yes, this is the Secret Santa team I made but it has been altered some to make it better for the current meta. Escavalier was cool, but Melmetal is a better wall so I made that change.
 
A lot of old staples returning means we're in kind of a weird phase of BH where a lot of teams and movesets we develop now are going to be heavily obsolete. Meanwhile, a lot of Gen VII teams that are not salvageable have the potential to be ported over with some modifications. However, the lack of Megas and Primals means we won't be getting quite the same level of offensive prowress as Gen VII had and I foresee the meta potentially taking a stallier lean barring any unforseen additions or changes. The lack of those forms means teams might wind up looking like an evolution of Gen V rather than Gen VII.

The existence of Primal Weathers though makes me wonder if Primals will return in some fashion, however. Will Mega and Primals return normally? Or will they return as G-Max? Utter speculation with little basis, weee! Worth noting though, if Pogre returns it'll be a pretty darn good user of Fish Rend with its base 150 Attack and massive bulk to sponge hits while boosting its speed or abusing Swift Swim. There is zilch evidence this will occur but... hey, it's an interesting thought.

Glancing through the list of returning mons, we have possible signature moves coming back. So, lemme list and try not to miss any. Remember: none of these are confirmed.

Staple(ish)

Sacred Fire
Precipice Blades
Dragon Ascent
Roar of Time
Oblivion Wing (Quick Feet Ray is back! :D)
Thousand Arrows
Thousand Waves
Core Enforcer (GDI!)

Niche

Aeroblast
Luster Purge (Maybe gimmick since mostly just Serene Grace abuse)
Origin Pulse
Spacial Rend
Magma Storm
Geomancy

Gimmick

Mist Ball
Lunar Dance
Shadow Force
Nature's Madness (so long as Parental Bond is absent, otherwise niche it)

Utterly Outclassed

Land's Wrath



Ban Shedinja please so I can abuse FSMs 10x more easily since it's like the only consistent stop so far
 

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