tbh this is probably a bad time to mention this, but max moves are available to use by themselves the same way you could use CFZ before the ban last gen
Max Flare has no effect while you are not dynamaxed. It's just 100 BP Physical Fire attack with 8 PP. Since Max Flare is unique in having 100 BP instead of 10, this feels more like a data entry error on PS's part than a accurate reflection of cart mechanics. Though maybe I'm wrong, I can't actually test that.Interesting. I may have to consider it. Depending on its effect.
Thanks for doing the research.
I wonder what this effect will have on the metagame. Is it an option for Fire types like Reshiram?
It actually could be useful - Pyro Ball has a nasty 90% accurracy and V-Create has the stat drops (but is so good anyway). Pyro Ball might be useful for some calcs but im too lazy to do thoseMax Flare having 100 BP actually is accurate to cart, I assume it's a typo on Game Freak's part. That said, the move is still almost completely outclassed by other physical Fire moves which offer more power, more utility, or both.
The point is, even with a extremely good fairy move with the power level of v-create, there are still so many resists in the meta that almost completely checks/counters it, like Melmetal, Toxapex, Aegislash, Darmanitan-Zen, etc. It doesn’t even have that high of an attacking stat.you could theoretically put multi-attack with fairy memory/pixilate or use pixilate with body slam/extreme speed to get a physical fairy type move above 80 power that isn't 90% accurate
I agree here, as failing to revenge-kill a frail attacker like DarmanitanGZ could cost you the whole game, even when you had the advantage and are waiting for the W. Dynamaxing also lets sweepers get boosts/support from Max Moves setting terrains or weather, making problematic things like Bolt Beak spammers even more problematic. The doubled HP also makes attackers take less damage from recoil (mainly Life Orb) so they get 2/3 more turns of sweeping before Life Orb kills it. Mons running ice/rock moves can also set hail/sand respectively to kill Shed, which idk if it is a good thing... we have to wait for what council decides on Shed suspect. But after all, it’s just three turns of disaster, and Dynamaxed mons can be easily forced out in BH, unlike other metagames. I think Dynamax can also be discussed later as the meta develops.I've said before that I think Dynamaxing isn't as plainly broken in BH as it is in other tiers, that we have the tools to deal with it offensively, and that it offers valuable defensive utility. I still believe this, but I'm coming to feel that it may be problematic for the way that it makes many Pokemon difficult to check offensively. The power increase and stat boosts isn't a big deal in BH, but frail offensive threats being able to double their bulk at will to avoid being revenge-killed can be very obnoxious and creates a lot of high-stakes 50/50s. I feel like this may not be healthy for the metagame in the long run, but I'm still unsure to what extent this is just me still maybe not being fully accustomed to the mechanic.
Hey, Excadrill, could Tough Claws High Horsepower, and keep the rest of its moves. This replaces Adaptability for your proposed set.Max Flare having 100 BP actually is accurate to cart, I assume it's a typo on Game Freak's part. That said, the move is still almost completely outclassed by other physical Fire moves which offer more power, more utility, or both.
On the council: I don't really want to join in the dogpile, but I will say that I've been a bit frustrated about the council's inactivity and lack of transparency. I agree with SL42 about the kokoloko tiering method: I think it's ideal for a tier like BH and is the best way to get the metagame to a balanced state as quickly as possible.
Some thoughts on some mons in the current meta:
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The hype has died down, and Dragapult has dropped off almost completely. The Normalise set is incomparable to last gen's NormGar: its serious lack of power and the fact that Dynamaxed Pokemon are unaffected by Entrainment renders it incapable of posing a serious threat to most teams. I've experimented with non-Normalise sets like Shell Smash Multi-Attack and Choice Band Intrepid Sword, but they're mediocre overall.
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At this point Melmetal has cemented itself as one of the most important Pokemon in the tier. Its best sets are Fur Coat, Flash Fire/Primordial Sea, Prankster, Magic Bounce, and Ice Scales, and it has a number of more niche sets beyond this. Melmetal's prevalence really hinders the viability of physical attackers that struggle to break it, like Kyurem-B, Dragapult, Zacian, Zacian-C, Solgaleo, Necrozma-DM, and Snorlax. A lot of Pokemon run V-Create basically just for Melm, and I've seen Kyu-B running Blue Flare to get past the Fur Coat set. All of its sets are extremely flexible and easily fit onto a range of teams, to the extent that running multiples is completely valid.
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Melm's popularity is partially responsible for the huge uptick in Darmanitan-GZ usage lately, as physical attackers that can force out Melm are very useful and often hard to come by. In particular, the Mold Breaker Choice Band set is obnoxiously difficult to switch into while also having an excellent speed tier, and I've started running Primordial Sea rather than Flash Fire on Steel-types to deal with it. Really important to keep up hazards against this thing. Refrigerate sets have fallen off I've found, as priority is pretty bad against Dynamax and it can't really threaten to OHKO stuff the same way Choice Band sets can. Scarf sets have been popping up as well, and I think they're quite good too: V-Create is so stupidly powerful that the extra power from Choice Band is often unnecessary and it checks Zacian-C very effectively.
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PH Zamazenta is really well-positioned at the moment I feel. It can run offensive utility sets like MMX did last gen, but that set is a little awkward now mainly because Low Kick just isn't very good anymore. Not only does it not work on Dynamaxed Pokemon, but the powering down of the tier has meant that there are a lot of Pokemon running around that are quite light and don't take much damage from Low Kick, so it's a bit unreliable. The best option is Close Combat, but due to that move's low PP and defense drops it's not that well suited for sets that want to stick around for a long time. However, I'm a big fan of this set with Shift Gear:
Zamazenta @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
- Shift Gear
- Close Combat
- Knock Off / Earthquake / Bolt Beak / Sunsteel Strike
- Will-O-Wisp / Spore
This can force a ton of switches to get set up, and if your coverage lines up well against your opponent's team it can be challenging to deal with long-term. I'm finding that Poison Heal is not very well-prepared for at the moment as stuff like Entrainment has fallen out of favour.
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Kyurem-B has also dropped off quite hard. It has a lot of trouble getting past Melmetal, who I think is the most common Pokemon in the tier, and Dynamaxing makes it a lot less effective as a revenge killer. Additionally, Darm gives it a ton of competition for most of its sets. I've found Kyu-B to be really hard to justify running. I think its best set atm is a utility Refrigerate set with Heavy-Duty Boots and Rapid Spin.
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Zacian is yet to really find its place I think. Offensively, it lacks power because its STAB options are weak and it usually can't get past Melmetal. Defensively, its resistances aren't particularly relevant and its bulk isn't quite good enough to switch into much. I've tried out a number of Zacian sets and even when they look good on paper I find that they don't really do much in practice. Maybe there's a really good Zacian set out there just waiting to be discovered, but I wouldn't bet on it. The metagame is very unkind to it. If only there was a good physical Fairy move...
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Gourgeist-Super is a neat defensive Pokemon that I think is quite good right now. With Fur Coat, Prankster, or Poison Heal it can take on a lot of common Bolt Beak/Fishious Rend users, as well as Shedinja, Zamazenta, and some miscellaneous mons like Excadrill. The Ground resist is really nice, as it's often quite difficult to fit one of those onto a team and STAB Spectral Thief from Gourgeist's 100 base Attack can hit surprisingly hard. Its weaknesses to Spectral Thief and Knock Off are annoying, and it gets ganked by a surprise V-Create quite often, but despite this I've found room for it on a lot of teams recently.
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Ghost resists are becoming even scarcer due to Dragapult's plummeting popularity, which is great for Choice Specs Adaptability Lunala, one of the most underrated wallbreakers in the tier at the moment. Great STABs, a speed tier that puts it ahead of the Unova Dragons, and very good bulk combine to make Lunala a threat that many teams aren't really prepared to deal with. What's cool about Lunala is that Moongeist Beam and Psystrike allow it to get past pretty much any Ice Scales mon, which is what a lot of teams rely on to blanket check special attackers in the absence of versatile special walls. Its issue is that while very little can avoid being 2HKOd by Lunala, it doesn't actually threaten to OHKO many things, so it can struggle to force switches.
Lunala @ Choice Specs
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Volt Switch
- Blue Flare / Secret Sword / Focus Blast / Trick
View attachment 217473
Excadrill has been picking up quite a bit lately as well. I'm a big fan of Choice Band sets like this one:
Excadrill @ Choice Band
Ability: Intrepid Sword / Adaptability / Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
- Sunsteel Strike / Double Iron Bash
- U-turn / Double Iron Bash
- Bolt Beak / Extreme Speed / Double Iron Bash
Excadrill's Earthquake is very difficult to switch into, as so many of the best Pokemon in the tier are weak to Ground and resists are often hard to come by. It's secondary STAB in Sunsteel Strike and/or Double Iron Bash lets it get past Fur Coat users and pretty much anything else that can switch into Earthquake. It's role as a physical wallbreaker that not only breaks Melmetal but also can usually safely switch into it is very valuable. Compared to other wallbreakers its speed tier is unimpressive, but it offers meaningful defensive synergy by being immune to Bolt Beak. It also can run a decent Scarf set, but that one is not quite as potent and often outclassed. The boosting sets with Ground-type Multi-Attack are ok but a little bit gimmicky I think, the fact that they can't run Shell Smash without losing to Imposter is pretty wack and makes it way less appealing to me compared to some other Imposter-proof boosting sweeper like Marshadow.
On future suspects:
I'm in favour of suspecting Bolt Beak and maybe Fishious Rend in future, but I think they should be dealt with separately and not tiered as a unit. Despite having the same mechanics, the metagame impact of these moves is very different. Bolt Beak has very strong STAB abusers in Zekrom and Zeraora and is useful as a coverage move for a lot of threats. Fishious Rend's best STAB abusers are Barraskewda and Gyarados, certainly a step down, and the only things that want to run it as coverage are Electrics trying to hit bulky Grounds. I think Bolt Beak is far more problematic and I think there's a good chance I would vote to ban it in a suspect, but I don't really feel the same way about Fishious Rend, which feels easier to handle both in the teambuilder and in battle. The complication is that users of both of these moves frequently run the other as coverage: Bolt Beak might be easier to manage if Fishious Rend were gone, and vice versa. Regardless, I think the best course of action regarding these moves is to deal with Bolt Beak first and then assess Fishious Rend.
I've said before that I think Dynamaxing isn't as plainly broken in BH as it is in other tiers, that we have the tools to deal with it offensively, and that it offers valuable defensive utility. I still believe this, but I'm coming to feel that it may be problematic for the way that it makes many Pokemon difficult to check offensively. The power increase and stat boosts isn't a big deal in BH, but frail offensive threats being able to double their bulk at will to avoid being revenge-killed can be very obnoxious and creates a lot of high-stakes 50/50s. I feel like this may not be healthy for the metagame in the long run, but I'm still unsure to what extent this is just me still maybe not being fully accustomed to the mechanic.
Speaking of Dynamax, how do you feel about Behemoth Blade, and Dynamax Cannon, etc.?The point is, even with a extremely good fairy move with the power level of v-create, there are still so many resists in the meta that almost completely checks/counters it, like Melmetal, Toxapex, Aegislash, Darmanitan-Zen, etc. It doesn’t even have that high of an attacking stat.
I agree here, as failing to revenge-kill a frail attacker like DarmanitanGZ could cost you the whole game, even when you had the advantage and are waiting for the W. Dynamaxing also lets sweepers get boosts/support from Max Moves setting terrains or weather, making problematic things like Bolt Beak spammers even more problematic. The doubled HP also makes attackers take less damage from recoil (mainly Life Orb) so they get 2/3 more turns of sweeping before Life Orb kills it. Mons running ice/rock moves can also set hail/sand respectively to kill Shed, which idk if it is a good thing... we have to wait for what council decides on Shed suspect. But after all, it’s just three turns of disaster, and Dynamaxed mons can be easily forced out in BH, unlike other metagames. I think Dynamax can also be discussed later as the meta develops.
Btw hope the council can take action on Shed as soon as possible :)
It is worth mentioning that these Pokémon coming back means that in all likelihood that their signature moves will become available again, reintroducing moves like Geomancy, Dragon Ascent, Sacred Fire and Thousand Arrows in the metagame.Unsure if Nintendo Direct news is a spoiler so I'll keep this hidden. Inside I'll discuss the potential viability of some of the different mons we've been able to so far this generation.
So recent news tells us we are getting back 200+ mons, including the past generation legendary mons as well as some BH relevant mons like Chansey. While most or all of these mons won't be available until June 2020 at the earliest, I wanted to look ahead at the mons that will likely lose their viability in Gen 8 BH as a result. Without going into a ton of detail on these, I'll lay this out by stating the new mon and following with the mons who might lose viability on their arrival. I won't include every new mon or legendary but will hit some important ones.
Chansey / Blissey - Wobbuffet, Munchlax, Snorlax, Drifblim, and Wailord will no longer be seen as Imposter.
Ho-Oh - Torkoal will face stiff competition as a defensive Fire-type once Ho-Oh is available.
Groudon - Hippowdon is outclassed by Groudon in every way. Groudon's pure Ground typing also gives benefits over the exploitable typing of Rhydon and Rhyperior. It will also compete with Excadrill as an offensive Ground-type even while lacking a useful secondary Steel typing.
Kyogre - Jellicent, Primarina, and Seismitoad all have nice typings, but Kyogre's mixed bulk is better and offers more offensive presence.
Rayquaza - Gyarados will have competition as an offensive Flying-type, even though Fishious Rend is the main reason it sees usage.
Giratina - Doublade, Dusclops, Aegislash, Gourgeist-Super, Jellicent and Runerigus will all envy Giratina's massive 150/120/120 bulk. Aegislash will still stand apart thanks to its Steel typing, but the other's niches will definitely get smaller.
Dialga - There was no reason to use Duraludon, but Dialga will likely make Steel-types like Ferrothorn Steelix, and Escavalier more niche options thanks to its nice typing, bulk, and offenses.
Regigigas - Snorlax will face competition as a bulky Normal-type. Snorlax will have a niche of being incredibly slow and having better special bulk, but Regigigas will bring back PH Facade sweeper sets.
Yveltal - Most certainly Mandibuzz and likely Umbreon will see no usage with Yveltal around. It also gives Gyarados more competition as an offensive Flying-type.
Xerneas - Zacian is outclassed by Xerneas in every way other than Speed.
Tapu Fini - With less offensive presence, Fini is clearly a better defensive option than Primarina.
Tapu Koko - Zeraora is faster, but a secondary Fairy-type and slightly more power will make Koko an interesting Bolt Beak user (if it is still legal by then).
View attachment 217656
Urshifu - Its stats are unknown, but being a legendary means they will likely be pretty good. The Water/Fighting variant could potentially compete Seismitoad's as a bulky Steel resist.
I think you may have misinterpreted my post.Kyurem???? All those pressure that Kyurem-White brings to the meta is how strong a STAB 168 power boomer is. With Mold Breaker, its strongest Ice-type STAB is Ice Beam, which is nearly half the power of Ice-type boomer. The raw power of a Moldy Kyurem-White is just not appealing.
Ghost-types just aren't good in this meta. With most of the good ghosts gone this gen like Giratina and Aegislash (150 defenses), and the Knock Offs going around mainly due to Shed abusing Boots (it also knocks Eviolite from both Corsola and Dusclops), both don't do much in gen8 BH.
I know I lose the same amount, but the point is the percentage. Using your example, when you use 3 attacks without Dynamax, you lose 10x3 HP. 7 more attacks before you die. When you dynamax, each loses 5% (5HP) and you end up with 85HP which lets you attack 9 more times.
Behemoth Blade/Bash is just completely outclassed by Sunsteel Strike and Double Iron Bash. Dynamax Cannon is perfectly fine, Dynamax has both pros and cons that's why I want it discussed. If it doesn't have any weaknesses then it'd be gone long ago.