BH Balanced Hackmons

Loss of Giratina, Gengar, and Moldy Pursuit, along with some other more niche options, really does sting when it comes to Shedinja. Still, I'd be a little hesitant to go after it though less because of any gameplay and more because of general mindset of the population. Has it changed enough since the failed Shedinja suspect for a quick ban a mere 1-2 months later to go through? Or are people just gonna go "lol why r we doin Shed again rofl no ban plz"?

I mean, I'm not opposed to Shedinja getting a looksie this time around since a number of the tools I argued about last gen are just... gone while Shed has picked up more options. I'm just more concerned with people having actually shifted to the Gen 8 Shed mindset.



Personally, I'd say Bolt Beak and Fiscious Rend really need to get smacked out of the meta. I mean, they're effectively 170 BP attacks with 16 PP and 100 Acc with a marginal downside that only really comes up against priority abusers. Yeah, you could outspeed and cut the power and half, but nobody in their right mind is going to be using those moves when they're going to get outsped unless they don't have any better option(s). It's spammable, synergizes super well with speed boosting (Shift Gear, Shell Smash, Choice Scarf, and plenty of more niche options), works for breaking and sweeping, and is incredibly difficult to stall out. They're also about as strong as -ate STAB Boomburst at base power. Add STAB to these moves and they hit something like BP 255. Even unstabbed though 170 BP is going to outdamage most STAB moves. Add abilities and items and nope you're dead. Oh, and they give great coverage with just the two alone.

Oh, and did I mention that, with a little finangling with Dynamax, they can give themselves Terrain/Weather boosts? It's a bit fiddly cause the three turn deal, but still worth noting since any user can pull a terrain or weather boost on demand without warning which can do junk like bypass Unaware and Spectral/Haze spammers.

Do they have checks? Yeah, kinda. Fur Coat helps and so do resists, but they still take annoying amounts of damage from breaker or sweeper sets. Bolt Beak has Ground immunities, but those can be Fished unless they have an immune ability. Speaking of, most immune abilities can be Mold Broken, if desired, and the Ground-types can usually be bopped hard with a Grass or Ice move if really desired. Shedinja stops em, unless Moldy again, and a Sash might revenge KO. I suppose you could Trick Room them, but that's a really niche strat. Paralysis helps, but won't work on the Electric-types and the Paralysis nerf last gen really works in favor for the set-up users.

Compare to V-Create (which might be overbearing this gen too anyway since Giratina, Zygarde, Primal Ogre, and many other fat resists are all gone), which does have more power at 180, sure. But it has half the PP, only 95 acc for random hax misses, and its stat drop drawback make it extremely difficult to sweep with and/or stay in and spam safely which pretty much limits it most reliable uses to wall breakers.

So yeah, I'd say please do Bolt Rend first. Having one, ideally more, resist/immunes on your team is practically mandatory or you're going to get ducked over by a good Bolt Rend user or a spam of haphazard ones. Throw V-Create in there too if you guys really want, I don't care since Bolt Rend is pretty broken.
Nice post.

So after reading all that I decided to test how strong Bolt Rend is. The results are interesting:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1038363434

Against a noob so nothing worth saying about. However, watching a single Zeraora cheese through 6 Zacian in a row was a rather new experience to me...
 

Ren

i swore lips were made for lies
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Loss of Giratina, Gengar, and Moldy Pursuit, along with some other more niche options, really does sting when it comes to Shedinja. Still, I'd be a little hesitant to go after it though less because of any gameplay and more because of general mindset of the population. Has it changed enough since the failed Shedinja suspect for a quick ban a mere 1-2 months later to go through? Or are people just gonna go "lol why r we doin Shed again rofl no ban plz"?

I mean, I'm not opposed to Shedinja getting a looksie this time around since a number of the tools I argued about last gen are just... gone while Shed has picked up more options. I'm just more concerned with people having actually shifted to the Gen 8 Shed mindset.



Personally, I'd say Bolt Beak and Fiscious Rend really need to get smacked out of the meta. I mean, they're effectively 170 BP attacks with 16 PP and 100 Acc with a marginal downside that only really comes up against priority abusers. Yeah, you could outspeed and cut the power and half, but nobody in their right mind is going to be using those moves when they're going to get outsped unless they don't have any better option(s). It's spammable, synergizes super well with speed boosting (Shift Gear, Shell Smash, Choice Scarf, and plenty of more niche options), works for breaking and sweeping, and is incredibly difficult to stall out. They're also about as strong as -ate STAB Boomburst at base power. Add STAB to these moves and they hit something like BP 255. Even unstabbed though 170 BP is going to outdamage most STAB moves. Add abilities and items and nope you're dead. Oh, and they give great coverage with just the two alone.

Oh, and did I mention that, with a little finangling with Dynamax, they can give themselves Terrain/Weather boosts? It's a bit fiddly cause the three turn deal, but still worth noting since any user can pull a terrain or weather boost on demand without warning which can do junk like bypass Unaware and Spectral/Haze spammers.

Do they have checks? Yeah, kinda. Fur Coat helps and so do resists, but they still take annoying amounts of damage from breaker or sweeper sets. Bolt Beak has Ground immunities, but those can be Fished unless they have an immune ability. Speaking of, most immune abilities can be Mold Broken, if desired, and the Ground-types can usually be bopped hard with a Grass or Ice move if really desired. Shedinja stops em, unless Moldy again, and a Sash might revenge KO. I suppose you could Trick Room them, but that's a really niche strat. Paralysis helps, but won't work on the Electric-types and the Paralysis nerf last gen really works in favor for the set-up users.

Compare to V-Create (which might be overbearing this gen too anyway since Giratina, Zygarde, Primal Ogre, and many other fat resists are all gone), which does have more power at 180, sure. But it has half the PP, only 95 acc for random hax misses, and its stat drop drawback make it extremely difficult to sweep with and/or stay in and spam safely which pretty much limits it most reliable uses to wall breakers.

So yeah, I'd say please do Bolt Rend first. Having one, ideally more, resist/immunes on your team is practically mandatory or you're going to get ducked over by a good Bolt Rend user or a spam of haphazard ones. Throw V-Create in there too if you guys really want, I don't care since Bolt Rend is pretty broken.
So your concern isn't if it's too broken but rather if people are in a different mindset because of a different metagame????
 
So your concern isn't if it's too broken but rather if people are in a different mindset because of a different metagame????
Look at it this way. The "core" players who are playing a ton probably have more experience and all, but the more casual players will make the majority of the vote. You know, the ones we never hear from in discussions but show up in droves having made reqs when the test comes along. We've also been in the holidays so people aren't playing as much or at all and, for many, if they have been playing it's been on the actual game itself. The last suspect in BH (regardless of Gen) was Shedinja, which was rallied out of nowhere by a significant number of core players in discussion to beat out other suspect options and then proceeded to fail the actual vote.

Also remember all those people saying stuff "What's the point?" and all that. Imagine how it'd come across if we immediately go to a Shedinja suspect/quick ban vote again. People are gonna be relying a lot on past gen experience and the "seriously, again?" belief and will be more likely to vote against the ban again whether such a vote is justified or not because people are not non-biased on such matters.

So, if Shedinja is suspect worthy (which I think it probably is this time around), I say wait at least a quick ban/suspect or two before going after it. If you have two Shedinja suspects back to back fail then I can promise you're going to have one hell of an uphill battle at getting rid of it in the future if it truly does prove to be busted.

Of course, this is all psychology stuff and all and I'm no expert so I reserve the right to be very wrong. But I honestly think a Shedinja vote/suspect has the best chance of succeeding rather than being a waste of time again if you guys hold off a little on it.
 

Storm Eagle

Banned deucer.
Since Shedinja keeps coming up I'm going to go in depth with it about my opinion.

Loss of Giratina, Gengar, and Moldy Pursuit, along with some other more niche options, really does sting when it comes to Shedinja. Still, I'd be a little hesitant to go after it though less because of any gameplay and more because of general mindset of the population. Has it changed enough since the failed Shedinja suspect for a quick ban a mere 1-2 months later to go through? Or are people just gonna go "lol why r we doin Shed again rofl no ban plz"?
I don't mean to be disrespectful but this argument is utterly nonsensical. Why are you using the results of a Suspect Test from last gen, an entirely different ladder and metagame overall to justify your argument against banning Shedinja now? It doesn't take an experienced player to know that one of the most influential Shed counters there is, is now gone.
900px-487Giratina-Altered.png

Giratina is the de facto best bulky Ghost-type there is. Without Giratina, people have resorted to using significantly more passive Ghost-types as a Shed switch in, or shoehorning in Sunsteel Strike on their physical attackers or Will-o-Wisp on their bulky mons just so they don't end up losing a Pokemon at any given point in time because it didn't happen to reserve a move on its' set solely to beating Shedinja in some manner.

I mean, I'm not opposed to Shedinja getting a looksie this time around since a number of the tools I argued about last gen are just... gone while Shed has picked up more options. I'm just more concerned with people having actually shifted to the Gen 8 Shed mindset.
What "mindset"? People who rely on Shed have tended to always build their teams around Shed not dying. Hence the popularity of Misty Terrain in Gen 7 alongside multiple hazard removal mons. It's just more prominent now because Shed received a buff while overall there's been reverse power creep with a lot of checks to Shed being absent as well as Pokemon who are better suited to beating Shed like good offensive Psychic-types to use Photon Geyser or good Mold Breaker Pokemon.

Look at it this way. The "core" players who are playing a ton probably have more experience and all, but the more casual players will make the majority of the vote. You know, the ones we never hear from in discussions but show up in droves having made reqs when the test comes along.
And who says their opinion isn't any less relevant? If anything, casual players are more affected by Shedinja because higher ladder and tour players tend to avoid using Shedinja in my experience.

Also remember all those people saying stuff "What's the point?" and all that. Imagine how it'd come across if we immediately go to a Shedinja suspect/quick ban vote again. People are gonna be relying a lot on past gen experience and the "seriously, again?" belief and will be more likely to vote against the ban again whether such a vote is justified or not because people are not non-biased on such matters.
Again, Gen 7 experience does not necessarily apply to Gen 8, and not everyone shares your mindset. The main reason the ban didn't go through is because the Suspect Test in Gen 7 happened at the end of the gen. We're at the beginning of a new gen and people are much more likely to give this a different look.

Overall I support a quick ban for Shedinja. It's lost almost all of its best checks, good special attackers that can fend it off with Photon Geyser and Moongeist Beam are basically nonexistent, Weather isn't that good, it got a buff in the form of Heavy Duty Boots, and I think Shedinja promotes an extremely toxic environment. You constantly have to build multiple offensive and defensive checks for solely Shed, and anyone who relies on Shed builds their team in a way that Shed has the most survivability and offers the most utility to the team in the form of improofing. Meanwhile, with changes like Shedinja running no contact moves like Pain Split, even Ghost-types are struggling to check it because Pain Split hits Ghost-types too.

It's important to remember that one of the reasons Shed is hated at a high level was because of teams like the Gen 7 Misty Terrain teams. Where legitimately good BH players optimize their teams so Shed is significantly more difficult to check. No other mon is like Shed in that if you lose your check or checks to Shed, you lose the game, period. Any other mon, you can beat it through whittling it down over the course of the battle. Even if you can't directly check said mon. With Shed, either you knock it out, or you lose, there is no alternatives. What makes Shed balanced, or unbalanced rather, is how difficult it is for any player to actually knock it out. In Gen 7 you had a plethora of Sunsteel, Moongeist, and Photon users, Weather was much more common, and hazards were common enough that teams had to run two Pokemon with Defog to ensure Shed wouldn't be deadweight in the presence of rocks.

If I had to say my personal experience with Shed, I rarely use it because I don't personally feel like I'll improve at BH if I rely on it. The odd times I do use it, it's because I couldn't find a Pokemon suitable for improofing a mon I am using. Which might I add, probably contributes to its increasingly high use in Gen 8 because improofing Pokemon is also more difficult with the lack of solid walls like Giratina. Every time I've faced it in Gen 7, I didn't feel like it was particularly offensive even if it was somewhat annoying to check. In Generation 8, based on my insights, I have seen people relying on it more and more. I've seen players straight up forfeit games when they lose their Shed because they rely on it for multiple roles.
 

abriel

I’m with you.
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Look at it this way. The "core" players who are playing a ton probably have more experience and all, but the more casual players will make the majority of the vote. You know, the ones we never hear from in discussions but show up in droves having made reqs when the test comes along. We've also been in the holidays so people aren't playing as much or at all and, for many, if they have been playing it's been on the actual game itself. The last suspect in BH (regardless of Gen) was Shedinja, which was rallied out of nowhere by a significant number of core players in discussion to beat out other suspect options and then proceeded to fail the actual vote.

Also remember all those people saying stuff "What's the point?" and all that. Imagine how it'd come across if we immediately go to a Shedinja suspect/quick ban vote again. People are gonna be relying a lot on past gen experience and the "seriously, again?" belief and will be more likely to vote against the ban again whether such a vote is justified or not because people are not non-biased on such matters.

So, if Shedinja is suspect worthy (which I think it probably is this time around), I say wait at least a quick ban/suspect or two before going after it. If you have two Shedinja suspects back to back fail then I can promise you're going to have one hell of an uphill battle at getting rid of it in the future if it truly does prove to be busted.

Of course, this is all psychology stuff and all and I'm no expert so I reserve the right to be very wrong. But I honestly think a Shedinja vote/suspect has the best chance of succeeding rather than being a waste of time again if you guys hold off a little on it.
This is piggybacking off of the previous post some but frankly, this perspective is quite ridiculous. If something is broken, we shouldn’t wait to ban it just because the community concluded it wasn’t broken in a different metagame.

The gen 8 meta is clearly different enough to warrant immediate action on Shed. It lost basically all good counterplay in usable ghosts, keeping up hazards, and moldy pursuit. We’re also mostly ignoring that pads Shed and the gen 7 team structure is perfectly usable this gen, especially since teams don’t have anything like Giratina or Gengar to switch in on endeavor. In my eyes, it’s perfectly clear Shed is broken, and quickbanning is definitely the better option considering the upcoming BH open.
 
The casual players don't care much about the metagame compared to the core players and should there be a suspect test the majority of the players that get reqs are the elite players anyways.

If anything the points against Shed this gen are strong enough such that the council should be able to quickban it without needing to consult the playerbase.

I still stand by my point that Shed is beyond ridiculous even in Gen 7 and that the failed suspect was, imo, a case of how people were uninformed/familiar with Shed as a tool (I doubt many of them ever even used a quality Shed team). Note that Shed is still beyond ridiculous even with Gengar's incredible rise in viability with the discovery of many new sets as well as teams using Gengar as an improof for something (that frequently has Toxic which beats Shed as well). I don't think I need to discuss much about Shed's brokeness in gen 7 because thats irrelevant.

In Gen 8 there are no Gar, no Tina, no Suit, Sand Stream is outclassed by Ice Scales basically, hazards don't work against Shed half the time.

The Ghosts this gen, despite getting a boost because of the decreased bulk and viability of Imposter, all suck. Aegislash isn't good, Jellicent is niche, Runerigus is alright but its bulk is mediocre and is reliant on its typing which doesn't offer too much actually, Gourgeist is very niche, Dragapult is actually bad, Marshadow is decent but not very good, NDW has horrible speed tier. The only useable one imo is Lunala with Moongeist sets being anti-meta. These are no where near the viability of Giratina + Gengar, two of last gen's most prominent ~S-/A+ mons.

The absence of stuff like Sand Stream, Pursuit, Hazards killing Shed, or even a very threatening breaker called Mega Gengar makes Shed insanely difficult to punish which makes it so you need to minimize the opportunities that it can come in. Last gen you can at least get up hazards to punish it or try to guarantee remove it with Moldy Suit or a pivot to Sand. This gen you have to make sure every single one of your mons is capable of punishing Shed one way or another, unless you have something like Specs Lunala or Moldy Marsh and strong team support to make them actually threatening when they get in. (BTW don't run Haze Recovery U-turn/Anchor Strength Sap Prank mons they are free for Shed). The only case where you do run mons that can't touch Shed is ... if you are improofing with your own Shed.

Shed teams are easily the most reliable, solid, and consistent teams out there rn with plenty of evidence to support it (I was able to reach top 15 of early gen 8 ladder with 1 loss using a not-very-refined standard Shed team and I'm sure other great players have achieved better).

So yeah please QB the never-dying bug before BH Open starts thanks.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
High Level:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1035233706

Low Level:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1035243126

After doing well, I wanted to finally post this set of Excadrill that I have been using. It’s taking advantage of both Tough Claws and the new buffs in moves it got this generation.

I wanted to select a Pokemon that has good coverage, while being Imposter resistant, while also using its typing as a great benefit in being immune to at least a few anti-sweeping measures such as Baneful Bunker, or (Pixelate/Galvanize) Extreme Speed.

So here is my tried and tested Excadrill set:

Excadrill (M) @ Ground Memory
Ability: Tough Claws
Shiny: Yes
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Multi-Attack
- Bolt Beak
- Sunsteel Strike

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Munchlax Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Excadrill: 193-228 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Excadrill Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Munchlax: 620-732 (130.8 - 154.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While not the bulkiest sweeper, it’s typing more than makes up for that, and proves that if you at least have the moves to cover most things, you don’t have to keep switching out.

Imposterproofs are also much easier due to the Normal-Type Multi-Attack, so using Steelix is now an option, whereas using a Ground move like High-Horsepower would make that less simple to solve... Volt Absorb Corviknight also works.

Excadrill works well in coverage because it’s main STAB is partnered with Bolt Beak, meaning Golisipod and Corviknight lacking Volt Absorb are shocked, and even Shedinja has to watch out for Sunsteel Strike. Having a 4x resistance to Stealth Rocks and an Immunity to Toxic Spikes are other perks that help alleviate its rather frail Defenses.

This set may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but when supported by a SR setting slow pivot, it can take advantage of coming in on something it forces out, and hit most mon at least nuetrally.

It’s not perfect due to a lack of bulk, but at least that helps it threaten out Imposter.

I won’t exaggerate it’s practicality, as it does need to have a chance to set up, which can be difficult, but with some support it can “hit the Ground running.” :)

My last post of 2019!

Edit: Bonus replay
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1038534958

Made it into the top 25: with a good win/loss ratio
C1AE4FD4-532B-45D0-A065-35E7C5B81650.jpeg

I wish everyone a very (early) Happy New Year!

I think this has been a great year for Pokemon, and I cannot wait to see what next year brings!

Warm wishes for everyone especially MAMP E4 Flint a loser Willdbeast Rumors かたわれ時 and Gmansour20

Edit: & motherlove you rock because if someone were to ask “who is the person who rocks more than anyone else?” I would say “Jesus, tied with motherlove !“
 
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Ok so guys I totally agree with how Shed is broken, but you can’t just talk on paper. In my personal experience, I’ve seen very few Sheds on ladder, maybe 1 in 10 teams. Deciding on quickbans or suspects requires the whole trend of the meta too. I’m battling with actually good players 75% of the time, and they all bring answers to Shed on nearly every mon. When the problem itself hasn’t even arisen, why tackle the problem? I know Shed forces answers on every mon on a team and it may be over-centralising, but good teams don’t use those moves (answers) just for Shed. Mold Breaker is basically good generally for ignoring Bounce, Fur Coat, etc., things like Wisp or Seed are generally annoying on anything, and ghosts are just perfectly usable for other issues like spin blocking, trapping. Nobody said Aegislash isn’t good anymore despite the stat nerf.

Well now considering BH Open starting soon, I’d suggest it getting QBed before it starts, but allow discussion or re-suspect to unban after some time. I really don’t see the immediate issue, or the need to get rid of it right now. In my battles Shed doesn’t appear for more than 1 turn.
 

abriel

I’m with you.
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Ok so guys I totally agree with how Shed is broken, but you can’t just talk on paper. In my personal experience, I’ve seen very few Sheds on ladder, maybe 1 in 10 teams. Deciding on quickbans or suspects requires the whole trend of the meta too. I’m battling with actually good players 75% of the time, and they all bring answers to Shed on nearly every mon. When the problem itself hasn’t even arisen, why tackle the problem? I know Shed forces answers on every mon on a team and it may be over-centralising, but good teams don’t use those moves (answers) just for Shed. Mold Breaker is basically good generally for ignoring Bounce, Fur Coat, etc., things like Wisp or Seed are generally annoying on anything, and ghosts are just perfectly usable for other issues like spin blocking, trapping. Nobody said Aegislash isn’t good anymore despite the stat nerf.

Well now considering BH Open starting soon, I’d suggest it getting QBed before it starts, but allow discussion or re-suspect to unban after some time. I really don’t see the immediate issue, or the need to get rid of it right now. In my battles Shed doesn’t appear for more than 1 turn.
I can’t really tell what you’re trying to say about Shed with this post, but I disagree with your reasons behind hesitation here. Usage stats don’t determine how broken a mon is, and uncompetitive elements don’t have to used on basically every team to be banworthy. While this example is from a different metagame, take USUM RU banning Linoone. It was only used on a specific type archetype, and if I recall correctly, Linoone was only in the B ranks on the VR when it was suspected. However, the community found that its team style of screens HO was uncompetitive, despite its seemingly low viability.

I think that Shed in SwSh BH is in a similar position, except that top players’ personal VRs consistently have Shed in S. I agree with Chesskings’s perspective that more casual players don’t think Shed is broken because they don’t understand what a good Shed team is. Oftentimes on ladder, I can just switch in a random Helmet mon on a HDB Shed and watch it die while it uses Endeavor/U-turn. I also have to question what “good players” you’ve played. There’s a big difference between playing consistently good tour players and random 1400s ladder players.

The biggest problem I see with Shed, though, is the centralization it brings to the tier. As you alluded to, I don’t think Shed is a good option on ladder, since many ladder players will run moldy moves on 5-6 of their mons. However, in reference to anti-Shed measures, I disagree that good teams don’t use them just to beat Shed. The moldy moves are (mostly) bad without Shed: Photon and Moongeist are practically useless coverage and would only be used by their rare STAB users, and Sunsteel is a poor coverage type and almost entirely outclassed by Double Iron Bash outside of beating Shed. Mold Breaker is definitely a good offensive ability, but Shed is honestly the biggest reason to use it, and there are plenty of other abilities offensive mons would like to use. The fact that Shed centralizes the tier on how much of your team can beat it with a very specific set of moves (and the aforementioned loss of Shed counters) is problematic and warrants a quickban no matter what in my eyes.

My real gripe, however, is that the council has been largely silent on this discussion that has been taking place practically since the start of the generation. You guys have been great otherwise but as Volkner said this is a pressing issue. a loser I know you’ve been paying attention to this discussion by liking posts. Can you please detail your thoughts in this thread? Tagging E4 Flint Funbot28 Willdbeast to do the same.
 

a loser

I'm a loser, baby, so why don't you kill me?
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Personally, I don't think action should be taken on Shedinja before the BH Open. If anything, I see the Open as an opportunity to show what "high level" players can do with Shedinja in this early state of the generation. This, of course, would mean actually using Shedinja and/or not making arbitrary agreements to change the meta to what you like best.

As for my thoughts on Shedinja, I and a few others have stated that Shedinja's true impact on this meta has not been established. Yes, Heavy Duty Boots and the lack of Pursuit make Shedinja more difficult to remove, but the ladder is not kind to Shedinja in the current state of the meta. Rocky Helmet, Will-O-Wisp, Knock Off, Spiky Shield/Baneful Bunker, and Fur Coat are all very common aspects of teambuilding in attempt to check or wall threatening physical breakers like Zacian-C, Zekrom, and Darmanitan-Galar-Zen. Each of these can punish Shedinja or its teammates in different ways. When using Boots Shedinja on the ladder myself, I've found I'm mainly running away from status, Moldy moves, or Knock Off more than I am setting Stealth Rock or gaining momentum with Baton Pass/Teleport/U-turn.

So again, I believe that seeing Shedinja's impact and usage in a tour like the BH Open would be valuable and help give us a clearer picture of its place in the meta. I don't believe that a quick ban is the right move here and that a suspect after the Open would be more appropriate, if people are still calling for it.
 

Ren

i swore lips were made for lies
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Personally, I don't think action should be taken on Shedinja before the BH Open. If anything, I see the Open as an opportunity to show what "high level" players can do with Shedinja in this early state of the generation. This, of course, would mean actually using Shedinja and/or not making arbitrary agreements to change the meta to what you like best.

As for my thoughts on Shedinja, I and a few others have stated that Shedinja's true impact on this meta has not been established. Yes, Heavy Duty Boots and the lack of Pursuit make Shedinja more difficult to remove, but the ladder is not kind to Shedinja in the current state of the meta. Rocky Helmet, Will-O-Wisp, Knock Off, Spiky Shield/Baneful Bunker, and Fur Coat are all very common aspects of teambuilding in attempt to check or wall threatening physical breakers like Zacian-C, Zekrom, and Darmanitan-Galar-Zen. Each of these can punish Shedinja or its teammates in different ways. When using Boots Shedinja on the ladder myself, I've found I'm mainly running away from status, Moldy moves, or Knock Off more than I am setting Stealth Rock or gaining momentum with Baton Pass/Teleport/U-turn.

So again, I believe that seeing Shedinja's impact and usage in a tour like the BH Open would be valuable and help give us a clearer picture of its place in the meta. I don't believe that a quick ban is the right move here and that a suspect after the Open would be more appropriate, if people are still calling for it.
You talk about Shed as if its only set is Boots but the fact is that Pads is still a really good item on Shed, it just has something else to compete with now. The fact that you can either choose between a Shedinja that needs less support and more scouting as opposed to a Shedinja that needs more support and less scouting is still incredibly good. You also underestimate how much of that counterplay relies on the Shed in question being Boots. Yes, status and Knock Off is good - but that doesn't even come close to being good and reliable against Shedinja. Any team can and will have ways to deal with that. The generally passive nature of the checks you listed means that its quite easy to use your own support to shrug it off. That's what the problem was in Gen 7, but it has the added boon of not having as many threats to worry about while simultaneously having more options and being able to select what direction the team wants to place more emphasis on.

I strongly believe that the council should reconsider their decision if these are the grounds on which it was made. This is rationale I would expect to see from a player with an introductory understanding of BH, not the council. Just because something has checks does not mean it's not broken, and when most of the checks are as reliant on the opponent having the Shedinja set you want it to have while also relying on the opponent not having the necessary support for it, it's my belief that the Pokemon in question is broken, especially when the punishment is as severe as Shedinja's.
 

a loser

I'm a loser, baby, so why don't you kill me?
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
You talk about Shed as if its only set is Boots but the fact is that Pads is still a really good item on Shed, it just has something else to compete with now. The fact that you can either choose between a Shedinja that needs less support and more scouting as opposed to a Shedinja that needs more support and less scouting is still incredibly good. You also underestimate how much of that counterplay relies on the Shed in question being Boots. Yes, status and Knock Off is good - but that doesn't even come close to being good and reliable against Shedinja. Any team can and will have ways to deal with that. The generally passive nature of the checks you listed means that its quite easy to use your own support to shrug it off. That's what the problem was in Gen 7, but it has the added boon of not having as many threats to worry about while simultaneously having more options and being able to select what direction the team wants to place more emphasis on.

I strongly believe that the council should reconsider their decision if these are the grounds on which it was made. This is rationale I would expect to see from a player with an introductory understanding of BH, not the council. Just because something has checks does not mean it's not broken, and when most of the checks are as reliant on the opponent having the Shedinja set you want it to have while also relying on the opponent not having the necessary support for it, it's my belief that the Pokemon in question is broken, especially when the punishment is as severe as Shedinja's.
By starting my post off with "Personally," I thought that would make it clear that the following thoughts were my own and not the council's. Anyway, I've already expressed on here that Pads are still really good on Shedinja so I'm in agreement with you. I do think that Shedinja is in a great place right now, but I'm not sold on it being unhealthy for the metagame just yet. As it is, this meta is pretty unbalanced thanks to very strong moves like Double Iron Bash, V-create, Bolt Beak, and Fishious Rend, Dynamaxing, and breakers that I mentioned earlier along with Reshiram, Mewtwo, and the Kyurems.

People have made some good points on Shedinja recently. But as I see it, only a handful of people with opinions on Shedinja are actually playing the ladder. The ladder has actually been fairly dead recently, even before the holidays started. Looking at Shedinja on paper this gen makes it look like something that should be quick banned, but I think a lot of people still need to take the time to use it themselves to see how it works in practice.

As for my rationale, we are pretty much all beginners in BH right now. Anyone who has really played Gen 8 BH knows that it is very different from the last gen and that there is still a lot to be learned.
 

lepton

im fragile, but not that fragile
is a Tiering Contributor
if pretty much every single high level player agrees that shed is broken, then i think it deserves to be banned, preferably relatively quickly. I need to know if it is going to be banned or not before open so i can prepare.

I think shed's "true impact" on the meta has definitely already been well established - moldy moves on everything. If a pokemon pretty much requires every single mon on your team to carry a specific type of move, isnt that overcentralizing? I think using the Open as a testing ground for whether shed is broken or not is a bad idea. Its not like the tourney doesnt have repurussions outside of just this meta - its used to qualify for playoffs. if most top players agree the meta is in a bad spot, i think we should listen to them.

tl;dr ban shed, using Open to test is bad
 

Ren

i swore lips were made for lies
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
By starting my post off with "Personally," I thought that would make it clear that the following thoughts were my own and not the council's. Anyway, I've already expressed on here that Pads are still really good on Shedinja so I'm in agreement with you. I do think that Shedinja is in a great place right now, but I'm not sold on it being unhealthy for the metagame just yet. As it is, this meta is pretty unbalanced thanks to very strong moves like Double Iron Bash, V-create, Bolt Beak, and Fishious Rend, Dynamaxing, and breakers that I mentioned earlier along with Reshiram, Mewtwo, and the Kyurems.

People have made some good points on Shedinja recently. But as I see it, only a handful of people with opinions on Shedinja are actually playing the ladder. The ladder has actually been fairly dead recently, even before the holidays started. Looking at Shedinja on paper this gen makes it look like something that should be quick banned, but I think a lot of people still need to take the time to use it themselves to see how it works in practice.

As for my rationale, we are pretty much all beginners in BH right now. Anyone who has really played Gen 8 BH knows that it is very different from the last gen and that there is still a lot to be learned.
That begs the question of why is there no council discussion or decision ready to present at all? Why aren't you all being more open about it? Why is it that when we ask for a reply from council, we get a personal opinion? (no offense loser ily)

If the council is playing actively, they should be discussing actively. If they're not, then they shouldn't be involved in the decision making process. If the reason for a lack of council transparency is so the community as a whole can come to a consensus, then why are we being delayed from a Shedinja suspect when most of the activity on this thread strongly suggests that this is the preferred course of action (aside from the Psychology PhD post which many have already pointed out why it's a weird as hell argument so I won't dive into it further.)

I want a reply from the council stating what they intend to do. I'm sure many others share this sentiment. The lack of transparency is very obnoxious when myself and others view Shedinja as something that needs to be handled. I appreciate you sharing your personal thoughts as that does contribute to discussion and I think many council members should be following you, but more than that you guys seriously need to be transparent about the discussion that goes on (and if there's none y'all rly need to fix that)

e: I also think that using the BH open as a testing ground is a bad idea I can elaborate if u want
 

Storm Eagle

Banned deucer.
People have made some good points on Shedinja recently. But as I see it, only a handful of people with opinions on Shedinja are actually playing the ladder. The ladder has actually been fairly dead recently, even before the holidays started. Looking at Shedinja on paper this gen makes it look like something that should be quick banned, but I think a lot of people still need to take the time to use it themselves to see how it works in practice.
The ladder has been dead because Gen 7 BH is OMoTM and people have largely preferred playing Gen 7 over Gen 8. It's not hard to see why. You yourself said Gen 8 BH was a lot more unbalanced. Less Pokemon, less moves to work with, the best stuff is significantly harder to check, and teams largely gravitate towards incredibly strong wallbreakers like Crowned Zacian, Zekrom, and Shedinja. But this thread isn't one for me to dump my personal gripes over the meta, and even then I've said it's been pretty fun. But I cannot deny Gen 7 BH has been equally, if not more prominent than Gen 8 BH, mostly due to it having more options and being more balanced overall.
Personally, I don't think action should be taken on Shedinja before the BH Open. If anything, I see the Open as an opportunity to show what "high level" players can do with Shedinja in this early state of the generation. This, of course, would mean actually using Shedinja and/or not making arbitrary agreements to change the meta to what you like best.

So again, I believe that seeing Shedinja's impact and usage in a tour like the BH Open would be valuable and help give us a clearer picture of its place in the meta. I don't believe that a quick ban is the right move here and that a suspect after the Open would be more appropriate, if people are still calling for it.
Emphasis on the part in bold. I feel like what was said was almost disrespectful and condescending, even though I'm sure you didn't mean it that way. Users would be asking for the Shedinja ban regardless of whether there was an upcoming tournament. What people wanted relating to the tournament was to know whether action would be taken before or after the tournament, which is a perfectly reasonable request for those who are participating given they only want transparency on the topic. However, I also respect the council waiting and discussing things amongst theirselves if they're afraid of making a rash decision.

I know what I am saying is without any regard for the upcoming tournament, since frankly I don't believe tours should have any affect on when or how balance is done in a given meta, although I understand my viewpoint is probably not the standard for Smogon, and probably not even popular with other users here. It should come as a surprise to no one that I'm primarily a ladder player with the ladder in mind. But I do understand why people have concerns relating to the tournament, and their concerns are perfectly valid.

I do understand the general point you're trying to make though. I'm not going to pretend like I'm a fantastic BH player, regardless of the generation. But I do trust what players more talented than me with a longer track record in BH have to say about this. One thing I will say is that everyone on the ladder is affected by changes to the metagame, not just 1600+ players.
 
Rereading, I'm not 100% sure where I was going with the last couple of posts on Shed. I know what I was wanting to say, but I flopped that hard. Derp. I think perception is a big deal because people do not always vote rationally (remember people with reqs were voting Do Not Ban on suspects last gen only because they had wanted something else suspected instead and didn't get it) but I'm gonna step away from that angle.

So sorry for that, lemme try this again.

Sooo... like I've said a few times before, Shed's picked up some new tools this gen and lost a number of checks and counters. As such, I do think Shed is potentially worth looking at this time around. Again, a lot of reasons I opposed a suspect last time are vaporware now. As such, I'm not against a Shed suspect, although I'm not sure it's the most pressing issue despite how much I hate the bug and have hated the bug.

However, I do strongly object to a quick ban, especially one whose sole purpose is "we gotta do this now before a tournament! HURRY HURRY HURRY! I mean, rushing and pressuring permanent meta changes for the sake of one tournament is really not how we ought to decide things.

More importantly, I don't think Shedinja is quickban worthy because it falls flat compared to the power of the previous quick bans. You cannot spam 4-6 Shedinjas on a team and call it an easy win against a normal team. Shedinja is not dominating the ladder presence. Shedinja teams do not require the opponent to either bring either Shedinja teams or a team designed specifically for Shedinja teams that otherwise falls flat against a normal team. It doesn't have niche checks that serve almost no other purpose and struggle at their job anyway. It's not an overwhelming, all-consuming, utter meta-game defining thing.

You know what was though? Huge/Pure Power, Parental Bond, Extreme Evoboost, Comaphaze, CFZs, Water Bubble, Chatter, pre-mechanics-nerf Zacian-C, and Guerilla Tactics, which were all quick bans. Some were more ridiculous than others, like Parental Bond Cresselia solo-sweeping teams that weren't 6 PH Giratina or Chatter being the most optimal move on literally every moveset in existence. All of this crap was on nearly every team, spammed on pretty much every team, won games through pretty brain dead play and team building, required counter-teaming to reliably beat to the level that made the team more susceptible to normal strategies, and had an absolute vice grip on the entire damn meta.

Shedinja is pretty darn strong right now, possibly broken, but I don't think it's that level of of sheer stupid broken. After all, you need a "good Shedinja team" to use it to max potential, right? Quick ban candidates doesn't need a good team. It just needs a decently half-assed team so it can beat good, non-abusive teams without any effort. So far, both what I've witnessed from the games I've gotten, from a few room tours I've watched, and from anecdotal evidence given here it doesn't appear Shed is doing that.

We're coming out of the "figure out how all the new mechanics are actually coded and wait this meta-defining thing literally isn't possible" phase of the new gen. Which means we're entering the quick ban phase. As such, IMO, we should largely focus on all the most stupid absolute bullcrap broken stuff that you can play in a brain dead manner and trash most everyone else with. The moment we go to suspect tests is the moment we're, historically, we're out of quick banning. And there's one or two things, IMO, that probably deserve the quick ban before we go to suspecting.

As I said yesterday, I think Fish Beak absolutely qualify for quick ban and that's my focus. I'm planning, on my next day off, to attempt to prove it by trying to build and optimize a brain dead cancer Bolt Rend team (although I might get side-tracked trying the same thing with Double Iron Bash). I don't think people are cancering these moves hard enough to their full potential because they're being too gentlemenly. If all goes according to plan then I'm going to have people cussing me out on team preview just like they did when I helped abused ability spam, HP/PP spam, Parental Bond spam, Chatter spam, CFZ spam, Water Bubble spam, Assist spam, and all that other stuff.

If you disagree with me and think Shed is quick ban worthy? Then stop saying "well all the good players agree and-". No, stop, you're not convincing anyone Shed is that level of busted. Do what I'm planning on doing and prove it. Stop being a gentleman and stop being nice. Make teams that abuse the hell out of Shed and pull some low effort wins against skilled players. If you think Shedinja is cancer then go out there and try to spread that cancer into every corner of BH. If, in your mind, the meta needs saving from Shed then you're going to have to use it burn BH to the ground first.

If I got you hot under the collar? Good. Don't yell at me though. Instead get out there and prove me and everyone else who disagrees with you wrong. If you anti-Shed guys can turn the meta into Shed's cancer-ridden playground then I'll happily start supporting your quick ban. Otherwise we can wait for a suspect.
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I’ve mentioned my personal viewpoint before and it is mostly in agreement with a loser in all aspects bar the Bh Open point as I have always believed (and followed) that a decision should be made exactly when it is needed. I also do agree with the psychological aspect outlined by Rumors edit: though I’m not saying that’s a reason to not have a suspect should the need arises.
 
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Ren

i swore lips were made for lies
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I’ve mentioned my personal viewpoint before and it is mostly in agreement with a loser in all aspects bar the Bh Open point as I have always believed (and followed) that a decision should be made exactly when its needed. I also do agree with the psychological aspect outlined by Rumors.
So do you think we should hold off on a suspect even if we think it's needed because of a psychological analysis that's speculation at best (and other reasons if you have them)?

e: You have years of experience being a leader so you of all the council should know that not everyone will vote properly and that risk will always be there. If you're that worried about people misusing votes and if that's contributing to your worry, then just cancel Gen 8 tiering and abolish the council entirely because if you all are scared to suspect Shedinja at a time where the strongest argument against a suspect is because "Idk if it's broken or just rly rly good" and of all the people that posted, this argument also belongs to the one person on the do not qb/suspect side then you'll be hard pressed to find a time where a suspect gets more support and you might as well not have any at all. If anything the psychological part is probably why you should suspect it now, because we at least have an assurance that a lot of people want something done abt Shed and that should help with the psychological aspect you agree with fsr.
 
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E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I realize my post may have sounded contradictory, if the only reason is the uncertain psychological aspect then no I don’t see any reason to stall. We will have another discussion about it, but as loser mentioned before our more concerning targets atm are the fIsheous rend and beak moves, among others.

I also agree that as council our presence has been slightly limited the last couple weeks and it should pick back up where we’ll be more proactive in replying collectively.
 

Ren

i swore lips were made for lies
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I agree Bolt Beak is concerning, but most of the community seems set on Shedinja so why not just do that? Why would the council take an entirely different route to what most of the people in this thread bar one or two people think should be next? It's really good you guys brought this up now instead of later but why was Bolt Beak brought up in the council chat in the first place as a primary target when it's predominantly been Shed discussion (and furthermore why hasn't any discussion on Shed happened?) You're all in charge of getting suspects going, not changing gears on us entirely and it's incredibly disrespectful to us as a community to hear that our discussion has been going in one ear and out the other, esp this close to the biggest individual tournament of the year for this meta =/

e: "and others"

What others???? What are we looking at for a suspect?? Surely you don't mean Mewtwo, as that was also in the post where he referenced Bolt Beak? This is what I mean when I ask for transparency, you have no reason to suppress what you guys are considering esp since it's different than what we've been discussing
 
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cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
im of course not qualified to come to my own conclusions on shed here, but what i see here is a fundamental issue with the way this game is structured.

it's easy to just wave this off as "council bad" (and to be fair, i dont really get the whole fishious rend/bolt beak thing when public opinion seems overwhelmingly in favor of dealing with shed instead) but the other side has a point here. ladder, the only way we have of consistently playing this game, has been dissociated with the concept of skillful play. there is no prestige to be had, and even in this new metagame the overwhelming majority of players on it are lacking in fundamentals. i played on the ladder for the entirety of generation 7, and 99% of the time shedinja wasn't nearly as threatening as it was in tournaments. this is probably why it wasn't banned in the suspect, too.

now, i don't mean to argue against a shedinja quickban here; as i said, it's not really my place. but at the same time, i'm unconvinced that a suspect based on only ladder results can succeed where its generation 7 counterpart failed. we love to criticize rumors for comparing two different metagames, but convincing players to vote ban where they voted dnb in generation 7 might mean the use of oversimplified if not outright bad arguments like "well boots exists now" where actual tournament results are lacking. the same thing happened with cfzs and water bubble last gen: while they were undoubtedly problematic elements and should have been removed, the arguments against them felt almost based on intuition and hasty comparisons to the incredibly nonspecific "criteria for a pokemon/ability/move ban" rather than actual results. with ladder as the only existing medium of play, proving even the most broken of elements as problematic can be harder than it seems.

i understand that at the beginning of each generation, the ladder has a bit more prestige than later on and sees more traffic from good players, so i might be overrepresenting this issue a bit. but i still think it's dumb that people can justify keeping almost anything in the meta under the argument that high level play in the metagame simply hasn't happened yet.

the solution here is most likely to have some kind of alternative environment where players are encouraged to succeed. as for possible ideas, some kind of invitational with public replays sounds neat. with less players to deal with the tournament will run much faster, and keeping out everyone else is justified by the presence of the more inclusive and prestigious bh open in a couple weeks. there might be issues with people not wanting to reveal their hidden teams or accurately represent what they think are the strongest things in the metagame so soon before a prestigious tournament, so i have an alternative option.

in my opinion adopting the "kokoloko method" to bh, or at least a mild variation of it, is a viable option here. historically bh has been very conservative about what it bans, most likely because of the public opinion and philosophy that the metagame should seek to ban as few things as possible. but this has only resulted in extremely slow tiering action for the sake of assuring everything that gets banned is broken without a doubt. given the current public consensus i think a more hasty tiering decision is appropriate here with a possible unsuspect later on, for the sake of preserving competitiveness for the entirety of the metagame's lifespan. the council's opinion to completely sacrifice bh open when everyone else is confident that shed is problematic tells me that this metagame has a problem with tiering policy.

i hope this post wasnt all over the place too much, thanks for reading and happy new year everyone
 

lepton

im fragile, but not that fragile
is a Tiering Contributor
i completely agree with everything you say gurpreet

on an unrelated note, this: https://pokepast.es/906b0ce6f7209c97 (e: put cc on skewda over v-crete) is the team im currently using to abuse beak/rend and what i think is shed's most broken role, as a blanket imposter proof for multiple mons. loses to shed stall because not many things on the team can kill shed.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Clause and Ban List:
The banlist keeps the"Balanced" in Balanced Hackmons. Here's our interim banlist for the beta BH8 Ladder (this will eventually move to a BH8 Suspects and Bans Thread):

Pokemon
<Nothing to see here>

Moves
  • Chatter
  • OHKO Moves
Abilities
  • Wonder Guard
  • Pure / Huge Power
  • Parental Bond
  • Protean / Libero
  • Shadow Tag/Arena Trap
  • Moody
  • Water Bubble
  • Innards Out
  • Magnet Pull
  • Stakeout
  • Psychic Surge
  • Illusion
  • Contrary
  • Neutralizing Gas (Initial Banlist)
  • Gorilla Tactics
History:
DateAction
Nov 18, 2019[Gen 8] Balanced Hackmons goes live on PokemonShowdown! Initial Banlist Decision Breakdown here
Nov 24, 2019Creation of the Balanced Hackmons Council here
Nov 30, 2019Gorilla Tactics QuickBanned
Is Psychic Surge meant to be banned? I noticed it’s playable. Such as my match against MAMP. I ask bc it is listed in this OP as banned.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1035223275

Should this be discussed?

And... HAPPY NEW YEAR!

P.S. I just realized I am the first post of the New Year in PST. I hope this post moves our thread to a fun and positive discussion for 2020!

20 years of the new millennium! Wow!

Can’t wait for Lunar New Year next on January 25!
 
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Storm Eagle

Banned deucer.
Again, someone else is using previous Gens as an argument against quick banning Shedinja. As far as Gen 8 is concerned, Shed has been a part of it for two months now. I understand your point, but it's not particularly valid here. Experienced BH players like MAMP and GL Volkner have brought up the differences between this Gen and previous Gens that put it over the line.
 

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