BH Balanced Hackmons

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1015139775

Why is it that someone who can copy a mon 6 times can beat someone who has an actual team? Pretty much sums up how awful gen 8 is.

Can we at least consider banning forms of setup. Like I mean last gen we decided to go after shed (which went extremely well I hear) and now this gen they took away all the walls with base stat totals above 600 and crammed a bunch of OP breakers and moves down our throats. The problem is if anything multiple times worse than it was in the (already bad) last gen.
I feel like you could have saved Reshiram from the second Photon Geyser, and preserved it for its strong Fire coverage to break its Steel typing, and that could have been done by Dynamaxing sooner with Golisipod.

In either case, I appreciate your use of Darmanitan-Zen Mode, as it is the absolute best counter to Zacian, which actually still holds even after considering the ones you faced had Photon Geyser, over SunSteel Strike. That move to avoid Spiky Shield and King’s Shield doesn’t hold a candle to Darmanitan-Z.

If you had given it Blue Flare, Fur Coat, and had Haze, Topsy Turvey, and / or Spectral Thief on any pokemon, then I would think you would perform much better. Even Destiny Bond, Perish Song, etc. would be great force out options. Give the defensive legendary Zamata Fur Coat, and it will do very well, especially if it had Spectral Thief.
Apparently, "Shore Up does not exist in Gen8."
"Bonemerang does not exist in Gen 8."
"Steam Eruption does not exist in Gen 8."
can anyone give a full list of the updated moves? im begging that it is a bug

EDIT: is ice face exclusive to Eiscue like disguise to Mimikyu does? it didn't specify like "If Eiscue", and changing Eiscue's form involves a stat change
Aw, I just played 2 days ago and it validated my team.
 
Apparently, "Shore Up does not exist in Gen8."
"Bonemerang does not exist in Gen 8."
"Steam Eruption does not exist in Gen 8."
can anyone give a full list of the updated moves? im begging that it is a bug
Sadly, it is not a bug. It is a feature-related introduced in Generation 8, where some moves are unclickable in the game.
Here is the proof from Mechanics Research in case you don't believed in me. It also includes pictures coming from the cartridge itself.
Reminder that this is stated on the OP:
"Balanced Hackmons (BH) is an Other Meta that allows you to use nearly anything possible that you can battle with in a local battle between players, in the most current cartridge."
 
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1015139775

Why is it that someone who can copy a mon 6 times can beat someone who has an actual team? Pretty much sums up how awful gen 8 is.

Can we at least consider banning forms of setup. Like I mean last gen we decided to go after shed (which went extremely well I hear) and now this gen they took away all the walls with base stat totals above 600 and crammed a bunch of OP breakers and moves down our throats. The problem is if anything multiple times worse than it was in the (already bad) last gen.
lmao i came across the same person, run a similar team as yours, AND I GOT HAZE. i only remembered i had it after i got 4 mons down bruh

well i dont think copying mons is bad cuz we got big man on campus last gen... zacian is the one that should be banned. with attack same as kyub and more speed than mmy and all those walls gone and gorilla tactics out and double iron bash out, see

Aw, I just played 2 days ago and it validated my team.
I played this morning and it's ok and a few hrs ago its gone. just after u posted the sand rhydon thing lmao

EDIT: revelation dance is unclickable. dragapult is into chaos now i think it should be discussed
 
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EDIT: revelation dance is unclickable. dragapult is into chaos now i think it should be discussed
Even lower ladder has fairly good ways of dealing with Entrainment Normalize Dragapult. Last night, I ended up running into Unaware Rocky Helmet Zamazenta (who didn't give a hoot about me going to +6/+6 despite getting hit by Entrainment) and a Golisopod who hit Taunt as I 2HKOd it, preventing me from pressing Entrainment on their revenge killer (and deciding the game because I was down to just Dragapult).

Some of these should still apply to Electrify Volt Absorb/Lightning Rod(/is Motor Drive legal?) Dragapult, such as the Taunt interaction and good old Magic Bounce.
 
OM! on Darm-Z, can't Zacian just use Fishous Rend to bypass? I mean, it's a specific move to check it, but it's no different than the "Fire Blast on Garchomp for Skarmory" deal.
 
OM! on Darm-Z, can't Zacian just use Fishous Rend to bypass? I mean, it's a specific move to check it, but it's no different than the "Fire Blast on Garchomp for Skarmory" deal.
Yep, but I wonder what else it accomplishes? It then gets walled by Toxapex, Golisipod unless it is a Bolt Beak alongside Fishous Rend.

252 Atk Kyurem-Black Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Zen: 158-188 (38.1 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It really needs Life Orb to even have a chance, but usually Life Orb variants have a 4th non-attack and it’s not Fishous.

252 Atk Life Orb Kyurem-Black Fishous Rend vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Zen: 205-244 (49.5 - 58.9%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Yep, but I wonder what else it accomplishes? It then gets walled by Toxapex, Golisipod unless it is a Bolt Beak alongside Fishous Rend.

252 Atk Kyurem-Black Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Zen: 158-188 (38.1 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It really needs Life Orb to even have a chance, but usually Life Orb variants have a 4th non-attack and it’s not Fishous.

252 Atk Life Orb Kyurem-Black Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Zen: 205-244 (49.5 - 58.9%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Don't forget Stealth Rock, especially on Darm and Goli. And, at the moment, Zacian seems about as physically flexible as MMX, give or take, so they can easily run multiple or, at the very least, you're taking a risk switching in any wall against an unknown moveset. Luckily Zacian's Special Attack is really bad, mixed and lure sets are out of the equation at least.

Too early to call it broken, but it's definitely something for a watch list. Though hoping its not broken since it's my favorite new Pokemon this gen.
 
Here's an eterrain team that went 40-0 if anyone just wants to spam something on ladder
https://pastebin.com/vHPZzBBt

Honestly its not particuarly well built but when a tiers best wall is golisopod i dont think you need to be a genius to build for it. Btw rock slide can kill shed when dynamaxed but its pretty gimmicky

15745590506285334863635094266138.jpg

P r o O f o F P e eK

Anyways i had fun with the tier despite its flaws so hopefully it evolves as gen 8 progresses

Cheers
 
Don't forget Stealth Rock, especially on Darm and Goli. And, at the moment, Zacian seems about as physically flexible as MMX, give or take, so they can easily run multiple or, at the very least, you're taking a risk switching in any wall against an unknown moveset. Luckily Zacian's Special Attack is really bad, mixed and lure sets are out of the equation at least.

Too early to call it broken, but it's definitely something for a watch list. Though hoping its not broken since it's my favorite new Pokemon this gen.
Heavy Duty Boots works for anything weak to Stealth Rocks or hazards in general, such as Shedinja, it prevents hazard damage upon switching in, as an item. If Darm-Z holds that then you are immune to hazards.

Since Bolt Beak is a 3HKO anyways, unless Life Orb, you can survive it without Leftovers. With Tinted Lens not doing any additional damage, as it only impacts resists, it won’t really make a higher damage input unless they use Mold Breaker, or Intrepid Sword, and again with Life Orb, they take 10% recoil as you use Blue Flare.

In my calc above, it says Crabhammer but I made it 170 base power to match Fishous Rend.
 
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I think that Darm-Zen is definitely a useful defensive mon so far in this newborn generation, with options like Fur Coat and Poison Heal or others. Whether these abilities are banned in the future or not, Darm-Zen will likely have a big role as a wall.

Although some of the better Ground-type moves in Precipice Blades and Thousand Arrows have been cut, Earthquake is still a viable coverage option for the double Choice Band Zacian sets and is certainly something that hopeful walls like Darm-Zen, Zamazenta, and Toxapex will have to look out for. Its unfortunate that so many of the better wall options this gen are Ground weak, but the upside is there isn't a great Ground-type STAB abuser.

Other thoughts are that Body Press and Octolock (now that its functioning) are somethings that are also very imposing in this meta aside from Zacian. Also Zacian and/or Zamazenta spam teams are scarily effective at winning games. Species spam and threat stacking was prominent in Gen 7 and I think it is being showcased already in Gen 8. Something like the modified species clause mentioned by TI late in Gen 7 seems like it could open up room for more creativity in building rather than six Zacians. In this case, it seems like it would be great to have Zacian and Zamazenta in their crowned and uncrowned forms allowed on the same team, though, since they have different typings and stats.
 
A couple insights on the meta so far:

Octolock is a fun as hell move when combined with PH. Here's my favorite mon to use.
:sm/mewtwo:
SKWEEZY JIBBS (Mewtwo) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Photon Geyser
- Earth Power
- Spore
- Octolock
improof: mandibuzz, a sturdy magic bouncer
With Octolock + Spore, you get to stall out turns while slowly dropping the opponent's defenses until you can easily KO them. It's notable that Octolock bypasses Magic Bounce, so even if you can't Spore them, you can still trap and eliminate them. I've tried Zacian (uncrowned) with Play Rough/EQ and Zamazenta (uncrowned) with Low Kick/KOff or Icicle Crash but Mewtwo's really cool cause it can set its own terrain with Dynamax, hits basically everything neutral, and has a beefy Special Attack stat.

:sm/toxapex:
millenial humor (Toxapex) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Haze
- Strength Sap
- Slack Off
- Scald
improof: trappers, PH or MG users
Basically Prankster Giratina but on a Toxapex. Rocky Helmet is great for catching non-Protective Pads Shedinjas and chipping Double Iron Bashers hard while Scald spreads handy burns.

[insert zacian here]
THE I'M (Zacian-Crowned) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Play Rough
- Bolt Strike
- Pyro Ball
improof: shedinja
This is a fairly effective set, functioning similarly to SF MMY in Gen 7. It hits its usual checks in Toxapex, Golisopod, Zekrom, and others, and has the freedom to switch moves unlike Gorilla Tactics and Choice Band sets. Watch out for Rocky Helmet chip, though.

:sm/kyurem-white:
boomer (Kyurem-White) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Earth Power
- Moongeist Beam
- Volt Switch / Draco Meteor (if you want dynamax STAB)
improof: IS users
Due to the centralization around physical attackers, Kyurem-White is a nice anti-meta pick, breaking through basically anything that lacks Assault Vest or Ice Scales. It is pretty slow, though, so it can't stay in on fast walls (like ZZC or Eternatus).

:sm/type-null:
ok boomer (Type: Null) @ Eviolite
Ability: Ice Scales
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Spectral Thief
- Slack Off
- Entrainment
improof: itself
Basically a bootleg FC Chansey that can actually do things like not be passive. This basically beats any special attacker except like Photon Mewtwo with boosting abilities and stuff like that. Moveset is pretty customizable, similar to FC Chansey, but you can actually use attacks that aren't Metal Burst.

any wall @ Rocky Helmet / Heavy Duty Boots (if weak to SR) / Eviolite (if unevolved)
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed / Sassy Nature
- Worry Seed
- Court Change
- Recover
- U-Turn
improof: depends on mon
Magic Bounce + Court Change is pretty good synergy because you swap hazards and then prevent them from getting set again on your side. Yeah

:sm/shedinja:
zimbabwe (Shedinja) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 69 HP / 69 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 21 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 21 SpA / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Pain Split / Endeavor?
- Stealth Rock
- Teleport
- Baneful Bunker / Extreme Speed
improof: Magic Bouncers, basically anything
This is probably the optimal HDB Shedinja set, minimizing any contact with Rocky Helmet. Pain Split is not as effective but it's certainly still pretty good pressure against fat walls; Stealth Rock is Stealth Rock; Teleport allows you to underspeed basically everything; and Baneful Bunker is pretty useful for scouting KOff, Mold Breaker moves, etc. If you have a dedicated KOffer for Rocky Helmet, you could theoretically use the regular Endeavor-Extreme Speed combo too.
 
I think that Darm-Zen is definitely a useful defensive mon so far in this newborn generation, with options like Fur Coat and Poison Heal or others. Whether these abilities are banned in the future or not, Darm-Zen will likely have a big role as a wall.

Although some of the better Ground-type moves in Precipice Blades and Thousand Arrows have been cut, Earthquake is still a viable coverage option for the double Choice Band Zacian sets and is certainly something that hopeful walls like Darm-Zen, Zamazenta, and Toxapex will have to look out for. Its unfortunate that so many of the better wall options this gen are Ground weak, but the upside is there isn't a great Ground-type STAB abuser.

Other thoughts are that Body Press and Octolock (now that its functioning) are somethings that are also very imposing in this meta aside from Zacian. Also Zacian and/or Zamazenta spam teams are scarily effective at winning games. Species spam and threat stacking was prominent in Gen 7 and I think it is being showcased already in Gen 8. Something like the modified species clause mentioned by TI late in Gen 7 seems like it could open up room for more creativity in building rather than six Zacians. In this case, it seems like it would be great to have Zacian and Zamazenta in their crowned and uncrowned forms allowed on the same team, though, since they have different typings and stats.
I do agree on Darmanitan-Z, and I am glad you called it a wall; and not just a defensive check, it’s nice to see it get the credit it is due, and I regularly see Darmanitan on many teams I face, with Blue Flare, as I posted.

Others who scout my Darmanitan-Z and see it’s moveset with Imposter are impressed by its bulk.

Heavy Duty Boots only add to its usefulness, and can bluff Magic Guard / Levitate sets. Overall, I find its usefulness has only grown this generation - especially as the only true counter is Fishous Rend, but like I showed Rumors - it needs Life Orb or Choice Band to break the 3HKO mark, so if it only packs Tinted Lens, it wont break Fur Coat without the right item, as the ability alone won’t be enough of a power boost on its STAB.
A couple insights on the meta so far:

Octolock is a fun as hell move when combined with PH. Here's my favorite mon to use.
:sm/mewtwo:
SKWEEZY JIBBS (Mewtwo) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Photon Geyser
- Earth Power
- Spore
- Octolock
improof: mandibuzz, a sturdy magic bouncer
With Octolock + Spore, you get to stall out turns while slowly dropping the opponent's defenses until you can easily KO them. It's notable that Octolock bypasses Magic Bounce, so even if you can't Spore them, you can still trap and eliminate them. I've tried Zacian (uncrowned) with Play Rough/EQ and Zamazenta (uncrowned) with Low Kick/KOff or Icicle Crash but Mewtwo's really cool cause it can set its own terrain with Dynamax, hits basically everything neutral, and has a beefy Special Attack stat.

:sm/toxapex:
millenial humor (Toxapex) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Haze
- Strength Sap
- Slack Off
- Scald
improof: trappers, PH or MG users
Basically Prankster Giratina but on a Toxapex. Rocky Helmet is great for catching non-Protective Pads Shedinjas and chipping Double Iron Bashers hard while Scald spreads handy burns.

[insert zacian here]
THE I'M (Zacian-Crowned) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Play Rough
- Bolt Strike
- Pyro Ball
improof: shedinja
This is a fairly effective set, functioning similarly to SF MMY in Gen 7. It hits its usual checks in Toxapex, Golisopod, Zekrom, and others, and has the freedom to switch moves unlike Gorilla Tactics and Choice Band sets. Watch out for Rocky Helmet chip, though.

:sm/kyurem-white:
boomer (Kyurem-White) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Earth Power
- Moongeist Beam
- Volt Switch / Draco Meteor (if you want dynamax STAB)
improof: IS users
Due to the centralization around physical attackers, Kyurem-White is a nice anti-meta pick, breaking through basically anything that lacks Assault Vest or Ice Scales. It is pretty slow, though, so it can't stay in on fast walls (like ZZC or Eternatus).

:sm/type-null:
ok boomer (Type: Null) @ Eviolite
Ability: Ice Scales
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Spectral Thief
- Slack Off
- Entrainment
improof: itself
Basically a bootleg FC Chansey that can actually do things like not be passive. This basically beats any special attacker except like Photon Mewtwo with boosting abilities and stuff like that. Moveset is pretty customizable, similar to FC Chansey, but you can actually use attacks that aren't Metal Burst.

any wall @ Rocky Helmet / Heavy Duty Boots (if weak to SR) / Eviolite (if unevolved)
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed / Sassy Nature
- Worry Seed
- Court Change
- Recover
- U-Turn
improof: depends on mon
Magic Bounce + Court Change is pretty good synergy because you swap hazards and then prevent them from getting set again on your side. Yeah

:sm/shedinja:
zimbabwe (Shedinja) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 69 HP / 69 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 21 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 21 SpA / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Pain Split / Endeavor?
- Stealth Rock
- Teleport
- Baneful Bunker / Extreme Speed
improof: Magic Bouncers, basically anything
This is probably the optimal HDB Shedinja set, minimizing any contact with Rocky Helmet. Pain Split is not as effective but it's certainly still pretty good pressure against fat walls; Stealth Rock is Stealth Rock; Teleport allows you to underspeed basically everything; and Baneful Bunker is pretty useful for scouting KOff, Mold Breaker moves, etc. If you have a dedicated KOffer for Rocky Helmet, you could theoretically use the regular Endeavor-Extreme Speed combo too.
Why not provide Kyurem-W with a Flying-type attack so it can Dynamax and boost its Speed, resolving its only main flaw? Since Choice (and all items) are removed, you can even switch attacks, resolving its Choice lock for those turns and getting a supplemental boost in power via the Max Attack Base Power boosts. I just feel it could be something over Volt Switch or Moongeist Beam. Afterall if you Dynamax anyways, like you would with Draco Meteor, then Shedinja can come in free even on Max Ghost Moongeist Beam due to losing its Mold Breaker effect.
If I had Shedinja, it’s the perfect answer to anyone with Dynamax active, unless their ability is Mold Breaker. Lastly, I think Moongeist has lost its usefulness because it’s rare to see Unaware and Ice Scales, so Shedinja is the main reason, as Prankster Haze is the main Anti-set up. Lastly, since it is Specs without any Max move boosting SpA, you don’t need to worry about Moongeist for Unaware, or Prankster Haze to leave dents.

May as well get the Speed boost in, if you planned for Dynamax anyways - as you mentioned for justifying Draco Meteor. From here if you wanted to keep a Mold Breaker move, I could see Photon Geyser over Moongeist and a Flying SpA as the 4th move. Why? Psychic Terrain so it can pseudo Dazzling and block priority like Pixelate Zacian, plus that Terrain is like a Pseudo Choice Specs for Psychic-type attacks.

:kyurem-white:
DynaMaxed Potential (Kyurem-White) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Earth Power
- Photon Geyser
- Hurricane

Dynamax Photon Geyser - Blocks the following via Psychic Terrain - Pixelate ESpeed, Prankster - Encore, and *Topsy Turvey - to preserve the Max Flying Speed Boost.

Still breaks Sturdy and is now more powerful than its other non-STAB. Photon Geyser also breaks Ice Scale Toxapex.

Hurricane also will hit Golisipod extra hard.
https://www.serebii.net/attackdex-swsh/flying.shtml

Lastly Psychic Terrain allows it to break Shedinja even with Dynamax in effect:

Turn 1: You go for the surprise Dynamax, in order to boost Speed with Max Flying off of Hurricane. Shedinja wouldn't switch in if they know you are Specs since they want to know what move you have, and when you Dynamax you lose the effect of any passive damage or Mold Breaker move... (They wouldn't risk scouting your moves with Imposter due to predicted Dragon STAB), so that means-

Turn 2: You attack with Max Ground Earth Power on a predicted resist, but they send in Shedinja since they know your ability isn’t Mold Breaker (it would say so on switch-in). Like with Flail, you don’t actvate Hail off Boomburst, bc the original move is a Normal-type, including the Max Move, (so Earth Ppwer is the best move) Shedinja is safe... for now. Focus Sash breaks (yep, even with Sturdy triggering).

Turn 3: You Max Psychic off of Photon to activate Psychic Terrain as they Endeavor. Dynamax ends.

Turn 4; Since Dynamax ended last turn, Photon can KO Shedinja - bypassing Sturdy, while Psychic Terrain blocks Extreme Speed. (They may assume a Psystrike for mixed / Psychic Terrain coverage is coming and U-Turn for the KO, only to see you had Photon all along).

#BetterThanMongeist

Lastly, now that it gets a Speed Boost from Max Flying, a Timid Nature is preferred so it can Outspeed Dragapult for the Boomburst KO and not get Entrained, plus outspeed even Jolly Zacian. Earth Power can actually strike first now...

Final Edit: Clanging Scales gets the same base power during Dynamax as Draco Meteor, of 140, without the risk of -SpA after Dynamaxing... the - Def doesnt really matter under Psychic Terrain + Speed boosts as it is meant to Nuke most things... otherwise just use Dynamax Cannon to break possible revenge killing Eviolite Imposters. Draco is too limited without Contrary, Adaptability, etc.
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
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sorry for the slight delay as I had to confirm some things going on with Sleep Clause being carried forward in gen 8. From what I understand, we are able to have it on our gen 8 beta ladder so it will be added in, but it may be subject to change depending on what smogon decides to finally do.

------

As asked for previously, the BHC from last gen will change from the BH Central Resource Team to the Balanced Hackmons Council. The first council will officially consist of:

------
E4 Flint (TL)
a loser
Willdbeast
Funbot28

We will work together to allow hopefully a better decision making process for this gen, as well as continuing to work on the actual bhcentral when it will be added later on (again consisting of the vr, setpedia and so forth)

-------
As one of our first decisions, the BHC are planning on going forward with a Double Iron Bash ban. We are also discussing ZacianC and Gorilla Tactics as some of our next moves. We're also going to monitor this unusable move situation and see if there's a comprehensive list. Imo it might make it easier to just ban them all instead of allowing them to be selected in your team and then finding out during the battle.

Thanks
 
I am writing this post to initiate a discussion of a v-create suspect. The lower stat level of this gen means that moves such as V-Create are even harder to handle than before, as Pokemon are significantly less bulky than they were in the previous gen. That is not a question of the meta developing; that's just a simple question of stat numbers, especially hp, being lower. The absence of megas has also lowered the bulk level a good deal in the def/spd department, though it's not as big of a factor since attack stats aren't as engorged as they used to be. The sheer power of V-Create is extremely constraining to defense and bulky balance teams, who are pretty much forced into using a Flash Fire pokemon to handle the powerful physical attackers of the meta.

First some theoretical discussion. V-Create's power of 180 is at least 30% higher than the power of the most common strong, competitively viable moves available, such as Boomburst, Multi Attack, Brave Bird, Pyro ball, and Blue Flare (120-140). It's also 30% stronger than available dynamax max moves, which cap out at 140 BP. It can be used without having to worry too much since it has 8 PP and has no real commitment the way that dynamaxing, or Z moves last gen, does.
In a meta so full of slow pivots, especially with the newly buffed Teleport, getting your V-Create user in is even easier and he can spam v-create even more rfeely against an unprepared team, picking members off one by one.
You can of course argue that Bolt Beak and Fishous Rend fall into this category too, but their offensive typing isn't as good in a steel-dominated meta. Also, the combo of fire and Steel, is just a great combo right now.

Some Sample V-Create sets include:
Zacian-Crowned @ Choice Band / Choice Scarf
Ability: Intrepid Sword / Gorilla Tactics
V-Create / Sunsteel Strike / Filler / Filler
Filler = Bolt Beak | Close Combat | U-Turn | Earthquake | Photon Geyser | Switcheroo

This set is by far the toughest wallbreaker of the gen, and has no safe switchins. It also resists Stealth Rock and has a base 148 speed which puts it above unboosted competition. With Scarf, it still has plenty of power and is able to surprise Ohko revenge killers. The secret to the set's success, I would argue, is V-Create. Thanks to the staggering 180 power of the move, it can break through incredible walls such as Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned, which could otherwise take it on fine. Against teams without Shedinja or Flash Fire, V-Create is an easily spammable move, as it will still force any resist to recover next turn which gives you momentum.
Note: using hustle for all these calcs to represent gorilla tactics since gorilla tactics does not apply attack boost correctly
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Zacian-Crowned V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Golisopod: 335-395 (94.6 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Zacian-Crowned V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 143-169 (47 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Zacian-Crowned V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Melmetal: 302-356 (63.7 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Zacian-Crowned V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eternatus: 200-236 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This set is fairly easy to improof. If you use Intrepid Sword you can just run something that doesn't die to any of the moves such as Flash Fire Doublade, Prankster Toxapex, or Flash Fire Ferrothorn. If you opt for Gorilla Tactics, you can often gain momentum against an Imposter since they're locked into a move, and have to switch out manually while you slow pivot.

I've also experimented with v-create on other mons such as the much frailer but equally dangerous Darmanatan-Zen-Galar, and it does well there too. It's just an absurdly high reward low risk move in the majority of cases.

TLDR: Ban V-Create because it's way more powerful than anything else currently allowed.
 
Apart from Zacian-Crowned, I think that the meta has still a whole lot of holes and op stuff that needs to be fixed.
first that came to my mind is bolt beak zekrom, with electric surge (and doubling speed with surfer, making it nearly un-outspeed-able) and band boosting its base power to hilarious levels (377.5 i think). One notable mon out of the other spammers that i encountered was zeraora, which ran teravolt, smash, bolt beak under terrain and multi attack (not sure about the typing, i think ground is most suitable in the current meta). It easily breaks fur coat walls, the 1hp god, imposters, and other stuff that is meant to wall it. (sry that im lazy and dont hv calcs)

secondly if it was ever a threat to u guys it was definitely one to me. my opponents always jaw locked me when i aint got u-turn. as mentioned above im not sure if it really works like this, but it seemed to permanent trap my mewtwo after i killed the jaw locking aegislash. i faced 2 teams in a row that spammed jaw lock and brings in dragapult to end my career

thirdly i think that it isnt zacian that is broken. interpid sword, or specifically, gorilla tactics is the key that made zacian spam teams so successful right now. with GT auto functioning as a band, adding another band involves no cost at choosing only 1 move. ban GT (or intrepid sword) and zacian would just end up being a faster MMY imo.

with the meta centralizing at zacian, zamazenta, zekrom, reshiram, and many other ground-weak mons, the lack of ground types now should really be fixed...
the highest BST of ground types is silvally thats lit
even all those ground moves like blades and bonemerang got removed, the highest BP is multi attack
 
Speaking about Ground types, I found some luck with Rhyperior. It's the Ground mon with the highest attack and it's adequately bulky to not die to random stuff.

Rhyperior @ Choice Band
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Accelerock
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- U-turn

This is my set. I don't know if Knock Off is good enough. Usually you want to kind of spam EQ, because it is stupidly powerful. The main problem is that it is slow, so having Wish support is almost fundamental. (No, do not try trick room, it's a stupid and weak and gimmicky startegy and it will be until GF gives us an auto TR setter.)

Zacian-C can have so many other sets (i've seen Taunt stuff, i've seen FF and Levitate) that it's stupid. Gorilla Tactics is not the problem on it. (It kind of is in general, but PLS no ban, i want to bop faces with CB-GT mons haha.) Nor is Intrepid Sword.
Sadly there aren't many mons that are really powerful, so teams look like "4 of the same or similar mons and 2 weak mons that are used to counter the other mons." Once that everything will be implemented correctly we should look at suspects.
Oh yeah, Also Zacian-C is so stupidly powerful that it's always correct to have a move on it instead on the stronges pokemon with STAB on it.
V-Create hits harder that Cinderace's, for example (given the same set.) Darm Galar Zen i don't know, since apparently does not exists in the builder.)
 

Eldritch Crab

formerly NegativeDiamond
Apart from Zacian-Crowned, I think that the meta has still a whole lot of holes and op stuff that needs to be fixed.
first that came to my mind is bolt beak zekrom, with electric surge (and doubling speed with surfer, making it nearly un-outspeed-able) and band boosting its base power to hilarious levels (377.5 i think). One notable mon out of the other spammers that i encountered was zeraora, which ran teravolt, smash, bolt beak under terrain and multi attack (not sure about the typing, i think ground is most suitable in the current meta). It easily breaks fur coat walls, the 1hp god, imposters, and other stuff that is meant to wall it. (sry that im lazy and dont hv calcs)
Sounds like you ran into my electric mono lol.

I do think Bolt Beak/Fishious Rend need a suspect at the very least. (I ran a similar electric mono last gen but with Plasma Fists rather than Bolt Beak, and it wasn't nearly this oppressive.) One thing I will note until that suspect day comes is Jolly Scarf Zacian-C always outspeeds Surfer Zekrom (without Zek having any additional speed boosts, of course.) Jolly Zacian-C with a scarf hits 651 speed at max invest, while Jolly Zekrom with Surge Surfer active only hits 612 speed at max invest. Bolt Beak cannot OHKO Zacian without moving first.

+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zekrom: 374-444 (92.5 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zekrom Bolt Beak vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zacian-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 274-324 (70.6 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Also the Zeraora has Ghost Memory, just to deal with the aforementioned Jaw Lock Aegi/Normalize Dragapult combo lol.)
 
Sounds like you ran into my electric mono lol.

I do think Bolt Beak/Fishious Rend need a suspect at the very least. (I ran a similar electric mono last gen but with Plasma Fists rather than Bolt Beak, and it wasn't nearly this oppressive.) One thing I will note until that suspect day comes is Jolly Scarf Zacian-C always outspeeds Surfer Zekrom (without Zek having any additional speed boosts, of course.) Jolly Zacian-C with a scarf hits 651 speed at max invest, while Jolly Zekrom with Surge Surfer active only hits 612 speed at max invest. Bolt Beak cannot OHKO Zacian without moving first.

+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zekrom: 374-444 (92.5 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zekrom Bolt Beak vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zacian-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 274-324 (70.6 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Also the Zeraora has Ghost Memory, just to deal with the aforementioned Jaw Lock Aegi/Normalize Dragapult combo lol.)
ah then that's you. i remember super effective against shedinja lol, dealing with jaw lock and normalize seemed a big problem to me. i remember battling with Iynhe tho.

Adamant Zacian-Crowned doesn't always outspeed, but most ppl should also run adamant zekrom as doubling speed is pretty huge. (the real reason is smogon recommending adamant lmao). I'm actually surprised that jolly play rough isn't a guarantee OHKO, but adamant will do the job.

Speaking about Ground types, I found some luck with Rhyperior. It's the Ground mon with the highest attack and it's adequately bulky to not die to random stuff.

Rhyperior @ Choice Band
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Accelerock
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- U-turn

This is my set. I don't know if Knock Off is good enough. Usually you want to kind of spam EQ, because it is stupidly powerful. The main problem is that it is slow, so having Wish support is almost fundamental. (No, do not try trick room, it's a stupid and weak and gimmicky startegy and it will be until GF gives us an auto TR setter.)

Zacian-C can have so many other sets (i've seen Taunt stuff, i've seen FF and Levitate) that it's stupid. Gorilla Tactics is not the problem on it. (It kind of is in general, but PLS no ban, i want to bop faces with CB-GT mons haha.) Nor is Intrepid Sword.
Sadly there aren't many mons that are really powerful, so teams look like "4 of the same or similar mons and 2 weak mons that are used to counter the other mons." Once that everything will be implemented correctly we should look at suspects.
Oh yeah, Also Zacian-C is so stupidly powerful that it's always correct to have a move on it instead on the stronges pokemon with STAB on it.
V-Create hits harder that Cinderace's, for example (given the same set.) Darm Galar Zen i don't know, since apparently does not exists in the builder.)
I do agree with the raw power that rhyperior gets to, but i won't prefer it right now as it's weak to steel, which is a major con where Zacian exists. It also notably has pretty low SpD aside from low speed. I think an alternative option here is rhydon, which trade a band for eviolite. The rhino family can also easily be revenge-koed by scarf imposters with it having the rock typing, and eviolites have a better match-up. The support it needs doesn't end with Wish, and includes fur coat things, strength sap or whatever, as it's pretty hard to find a ground-resistant mon that isn't weak to rock
 
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Rhyperior is not weak to Rock. It's weak to Ground.


Anyway, sounds like, for the moment, we might need to go back in time and call upon one of the powerful mons from Gen V: Eviolite Rhydon. Granted, it can't spam Prankster Earthquakes these days, but that thing is still pretty darn bulky (though gotta avoid Knock Off). I'll probably sit down and experiment with it some after the holiday. Which gives me time to think about a real team other than Zacian spam.
 
Rhyperior is not weak to Rock. It's weak to Ground.


Anyway, sounds like, for the moment, we might need to go back in time and call upon one of the powerful mons from Gen V: Eviolite Rhydon. Granted, it can't spam Prankster Earthquakes these days, but that thing is still pretty darn bulky (though gotta avoid Knock Off). I'll probably sit down and experiment with it some after the holiday. Which gives me time to think about a real team other than Zacian spam.
did someone say eviolite rhydon? flint used to constantly make fun of me for using it in gen 5 lol.

is corsola good? it's probably the bulkiest mon in the meta, right (dusclops is probably on a similar level)? i mean maybe rhydon is fatter but lots of weaknesses.

or maybe type null? it's dumb bulky,
 

SBPC

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Yo i was reading over the thread and thought I'd point out a few things I've been running over the past month or so.
Marble Machine (Runerigus) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Spectral Thief
- Recover/Strength Sap
- Defog/Toxic/Thunder Wave

This thing is actually kinda flames, Ground/Ghost is incredible typing, giving it immunity to the insane Bolt Beak, Body Press, and Mbounce + Spec Thief is really good for neutering sleep sweepers and Normalize Dragapult, and despite its meager base HP of 58, but its base 145/105 defenses are really solid and let it reliably wall a good portion of the metagame.

Some alternative options I've found for it is using Water Absorb to block fishious rend/scald, or some of the slashed moves to help it fill other utility roles since all I've found it to need is Dual STABs and Healing

Something that could be looked into is Multi-Attack having base 120 and being a new judgement for beating normalize sets, which would be rad, I've also been experimenting with Perish Body + Anchor Shot but nothing fruitful for that set yet so if someone finds me something good with that post it. Zacian-Crowned is by far the most busted poke in existence and should be looked into for suspect imo but thats not my decision. Other than busted dog, ive really been enjoying bh this gen, ready to see where it goes
 
I came up with a set based off that Corsola-Galar video

Corsola-Galar @ Eviolite
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Cosmic Power
- Spore
- Strength Sap
- Body Press

We might want to limit something like this, but it's a perfectly legal set that doesn't seem to be a problem but can be if left unchecked.
 
I do agree with the raw power that rhyperior gets to, but i won't prefer it right now as it's weak to steel, which is a major con where Zacian exists. It also notably has pretty low SpD aside from low speed. I think an alternative option here is rhydon, which trade a band for eviolite. The rhino family can also easily be revenge-koed by scarf imposters with the rock typing, and eviolites have a better match-up. The support it needs doesn't end with Wish, and includes fur coat things, strength sap or whatever, as it's pretty hard to find a ground-resistant mon that isn't weak to rock
yes, of course Wish is not the only support it HAS to receive, it is just the most obvious thing it came to my mind. Of course it is not the only one XD
Also, once i (barely, like 6%) survived a SSS from Zacian. Don't know the set tho and that was the only time, lol. Yeah, Steel (and Fighting -Body Press) vulnerability is bad.
I'll try Rhydon also, I guess that Eviolite might better than raw power. Knock Off might be more present this gen tho.

About Corsola, i've seen the eviolite+ice scales set and it's really good.
 

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