BH Balanced Hackmons

[avyrie]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8balancedhackmons-1015139775

Why is it that someone who can copy a mon 6 times can beat someone who has an actual team? Pretty much sums up how awful gen 8 is.

Can we at least consider banning forms of setup. Like I mean last gen we decided to go after shed (which went extremely well I hear) and now this gen they took away all the walls with base stat totals above 600 and crammed a bunch of OP breakers and moves down our throats. The problem is if anything multiple times worse than it was in the (already bad) last gen.

lmao i came across the same person, run a similar team as yours, AND I GOT HAZE. i only remembered i had it after i got 4 mons down bruh

well i dont think copying mons is bad cuz we got big man on campus last gen... zacian is the one that should be banned. with attack same as kyub and more speed than mmy and all those walls gone and gorilla tactics out and double iron bash out, see

Aw, I just played 2 days ago and it validated my team.

I played this morning and it's ok and a few hrs ago its gone. just after u posted the sand rhydon thing lmao

EDIT: revelation dance is unclickable. dragapult is into chaos now i think it should be discussed

 

[Lectrys]

EDIT: revelation dance is unclickable. dragapult is into chaos now i think it should be discussed

Even lower ladder has fairly good ways of dealing with Entrainment Normalize Dragapult. Last night, I ended up running into Unaware Rocky Helmet Zamazenta (who didn't give a hoot about me going to +6/+6 despite getting hit by Entrainment) and a Golisopod who hit Taunt as I 2HKOd it, preventing me from pressing Entrainment on their revenge killer (and deciding the game because I was down to just Dragapult).

Some of these should still apply to Electrify Volt Absorb/Lightning Rod(/is Motor Drive legal?) Dragapult, such as the Taunt interaction and good old Magic Bounce.

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

What items do defensive Pokemon commonly run in BH8? I always was doubtful of Leftovers’ viability.

 

[Ren]

What items do defensive Pokemon commonly run in BH8? I always was doubtful of Leftovers’ viability.

Lefties Goggles Heavy Duty Boots helm n stuff, just stuff youd normally expect but w the addition of boots

E: Lectrys bounce doesnt reflect electrify

 

[Rumors]

OM! on Darm-Z, can't Zacian just use Fishous Rend to bypass? I mean, it's a specific move to check it, but it's no different than the "Fire Blast on Garchomp for Skarmory" deal.

 

[Rumors]

Yep, but I wonder what else it accomplishes? It then gets walled by Toxapex, Golisipod unless it is a Bolt Beak alongside Fishous Rend.

252 Atk Kyurem-Black Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Zen: 158-188 (38.1 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It really needs Life Orb to even have a chance, but usually Life Orb variants have a 4th non-attack and it’s not Fishous.

252 Atk Life Orb Kyurem-Black Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Darmanitan-Zen: 205-244 (49.5 - 58.9%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Don't forget Stealth Rock, especially on Darm and Goli. And, at the moment, Zacian seems about as physically flexible as MMX, give or take, so they can easily run multiple or, at the very least, you're taking a risk switching in any wall against an unknown moveset. Luckily Zacian's Special Attack is really bad, mixed and lure sets are out of the equation at least.

Too early to call it broken, but it's definitely something for a watch list. Though hoping its not broken since it's my favorite new Pokemon this gen.

 

[GXE]

Here's an eterrain team that went 40-0 if anyone just wants to spam something on ladder
https://pastebin.com/vHPZzBBt

Honestly its not particuarly well built but when a tiers best wall is golisopod i dont think you need to be a genius to build for it. Btw rock slide can kill shed when dynamaxed but its pretty gimmicky

P r o O f o F P e eK

Anyways i had fun with the tier despite its flaws so hopefully it evolves as gen 8 progresses

Cheers

 

[a loser]

I think that Darm-Zen is definitely a useful defensive mon so far in this newborn generation, with options like Fur Coat and Poison Heal or others. Whether these abilities are banned in the future or not, Darm-Zen will likely have a big role as a wall.

Although some of the better Ground-type moves in Precipice Blades and Thousand Arrows have been cut, Earthquake is still a viable coverage option for the double Choice Band Zacian sets and is certainly something that hopeful walls like Darm-Zen, Zamazenta, and Toxapex will have to look out for. Its unfortunate that so many of the better wall options this gen are Ground weak, but the upside is there isn't a great Ground-type STAB abuser.

Other thoughts are that Body Press and Octolock (now that its functioning) are somethings that are also very imposing in this meta aside from Zacian. Also Zacian and/or Zamazenta spam teams are scarily effective at winning games. Species spam and threat stacking was prominent in Gen 7 and I think it is being showcased already in Gen 8. Something like the modified species clause mentioned by TI late in Gen 7 seems like it could open up room for more creativity in building rather than six Zacians. In this case, it seems like it would be great to have Zacian and Zamazenta in their crowned and uncrowned forms allowed on the same team, though, since they have different typings and stats.

 

[anaconja]

A couple insights on the meta so far:

Octolock is a fun as hell move when combined with PH. Here's my favorite mon to use.

SKWEEZY JIBBS (Mewtwo) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Photon Geyser
- Earth Power
- Spore
- Octolock
improof: mandibuzz, a sturdy magic bouncer
With Octolock + Spore, you get to stall out turns while slowly dropping the opponent's defenses until you can easily KO them. It's notable that Octolock bypasses Magic Bounce, so even if you can't Spore them, you can still trap and eliminate them. I've tried Zacian (uncrowned) with Play Rough/EQ and Zamazenta (uncrowned) with Low Kick/KOff or Icicle Crash but Mewtwo's really cool cause it can set its own terrain with Dynamax, hits basically everything neutral, and has a beefy Special Attack stat.


millenial humor (Toxapex) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Haze
- Strength Sap
- Slack Off
- Scald
improof: trappers, PH or MG users
Basically Prankster Giratina but on a Toxapex. Rocky Helmet is great for catching non-Protective Pads Shedinjas and chipping Double Iron Bashers hard while Scald spreads handy burns.

[insert zacian here]
THE I'M (Zacian-Crowned) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Play Rough
- Bolt Strike
- Pyro Ball
improof: shedinja
This is a fairly effective set, functioning similarly to SF MMY in Gen 7. It hits its usual checks in Toxapex, Golisopod, Zekrom, and others, and has the freedom to switch moves unlike Gorilla Tactics and Choice Band sets. Watch out for Rocky Helmet chip, though.


boomer (Kyurem-White) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Earth Power
- Moongeist Beam
- Volt Switch / Draco Meteor (if you want dynamax STAB)
improof: IS users
Due to the centralization around physical attackers, Kyurem-White is a nice anti-meta pick, breaking through basically anything that lacks Assault Vest or Ice Scales. It is pretty slow, though, so it can't stay in on fast walls (like ZZC or Eternatus).


ok boomer (Type: Null) @ Eviolite
Ability: Ice Scales
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Spectral Thief
- Slack Off
- Entrainment
improof: itself
Basically a bootleg FC Chansey that can actually do things like not be passive. This basically beats any special attacker except like Photon Mewtwo with boosting abilities and stuff like that. Moveset is pretty customizable, similar to FC Chansey, but you can actually use attacks that aren't Metal Burst.

any wall @ Rocky Helmet / Heavy Duty Boots (if weak to SR) / Eviolite (if unevolved)
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed / Sassy Nature
- Worry Seed
- Court Change
- Recover
- U-Turn
improof: depends on mon
Magic Bounce + Court Change is pretty good synergy because you swap hazards and then prevent them from getting set again on your side. Yeah


zimbabwe (Shedinja) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 69 HP / 69 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 21 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 21 SpA / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Pain Split / Endeavor?
- Stealth Rock
- Teleport
- Baneful Bunker / Extreme Speed
improof: Magic Bouncers, basically anything
This is probably the optimal HDB Shedinja set, minimizing any contact with Rocky Helmet. Pain Split is not as effective but it's certainly still pretty good pressure against fat walls; Stealth Rock is Stealth Rock; Teleport allows you to underspeed basically everything; and Baneful Bunker is pretty useful for scouting KOff, Mold Breaker moves, etc. If you have a dedicated KOffer for Rocky Helmet, you could theoretically use the regular Endeavor-Extreme Speed combo too.

 

[E4 Flint]

sorry for the slight delay as I had to confirm some things going on with Sleep Clause being carried forward in gen 8. From what I understand, we are able to have it on our gen 8 beta ladder so it will be added in, but it may be subject to change depending on what smogon decides to finally do.

------

As asked for previously, the BHC from last gen will change from the BH Central Resource Team to the Balanced Hackmons Council. The first council will officially consist of:

------
E4 Flint (TL)
a loser
Willdbeast
Funbot28

We will work together to allow hopefully a better decision making process for this gen, as well as continuing to work on the actual bhcentral when it will be added later on (again consisting of the vr, setpedia and so forth)

-------
As one of our first decisions, the BHC are planning on going forward with a Double Iron Bash ban. We are also discussing ZacianC and Gorilla Tactics as some of our next moves. We're also going to monitor this unusable move situation and see if there's a comprehensive list. Imo it might make it easier to just ban them all instead of allowing them to be selected in your team and then finding out during the battle.

Thanks

 

[SuperSkylake]

I am writing this post to initiate a discussion of a v-create suspect. The lower stat level of this gen means that moves such as V-Create are even harder to handle than before, as Pokemon are significantly less bulky than they were in the previous gen. That is not a question of the meta developing; that's just a simple question of stat numbers, especially hp, being lower. The absence of megas has also lowered the bulk level a good deal in the def/spd department, though it's not as big of a factor since attack stats aren't as engorged as they used to be. The sheer power of V-Create is extremely constraining to defense and bulky balance teams, who are pretty much forced into using a Flash Fire pokemon to handle the powerful physical attackers of the meta.

First some theoretical discussion. V-Create's power of 180 is at least 30% higher than the power of the most common strong, competitively viable moves available, such as Boomburst, Multi Attack, Brave Bird, Pyro ball, and Blue Flare (120-140). It's also 30% stronger than available dynamax max moves, which cap out at 140 BP. It can be used without having to worry too much since it has 8 PP and has no real commitment the way that dynamaxing, or Z moves last gen, does.
In a meta so full of slow pivots, especially with the newly buffed Teleport, getting your V-Create user in is even easier and he can spam v-create even more rfeely against an unprepared team, picking members off one by one.
You can of course argue that Bolt Beak and Fishous Rend fall into this category too, but their offensive typing isn't as good in a steel-dominated meta. Also, the combo of fire and Steel, is just a great combo right now.

Some Sample V-Create sets include:
Zacian-Crowned @ Choice Band / Choice Scarf
Ability: Intrepid Sword / Gorilla Tactics
V-Create / Sunsteel Strike / Filler / Filler
Filler = Bolt Beak | Close Combat | U-Turn | Earthquake | Photon Geyser | Switcheroo

This set is by far the toughest wallbreaker of the gen, and has no safe switchins. It also resists Stealth Rock and has a base 148 speed which puts it above unboosted competition. With Scarf, it still has plenty of power and is able to surprise Ohko revenge killers. The secret to the set's success, I would argue, is V-Create. Thanks to the staggering 180 power of the move, it can break through incredible walls such as Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned, which could otherwise take it on fine. Against teams without Shedinja or Flash Fire, V-Create is an easily spammable move, as it will still force any resist to recover next turn which gives you momentum.
Note: using hustle for all these calcs to represent gorilla tactics since gorilla tactics does not apply attack boost correctly
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Zacian-Crowned V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Golisopod: 335-395 (94.6 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Zacian-Crowned V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 143-169 (47 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Zacian-Crowned V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Melmetal: 302-356 (63.7 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Zacian-Crowned V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eternatus: 200-236 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This set is fairly easy to improof. If you use Intrepid Sword you can just run something that doesn't die to any of the moves such as Flash Fire Doublade, Prankster Toxapex, or Flash Fire Ferrothorn. If you opt for Gorilla Tactics, you can often gain momentum against an Imposter since they're locked into a move, and have to switch out manually while you slow pivot.

I've also experimented with v-create on other mons such as the much frailer but equally dangerous Darmanatan-Zen-Galar, and it does well there too. It's just an absurdly high reward low risk move in the majority of cases.

TLDR: Ban V-Create because it's way more powerful than anything else currently allowed.

 

[avyrie]

Apart from Zacian-Crowned, I think that the meta has still a whole lot of holes and op stuff that needs to be fixed.
first that came to my mind is bolt beak zekrom, with electric surge (and doubling speed with surfer, making it nearly un-outspeed-able) and band boosting its base power to hilarious levels (377.5 i think). One notable mon out of the other spammers that i encountered was zeraora, which ran teravolt, smash, bolt beak under terrain and multi attack (not sure about the typing, i think ground is most suitable in the current meta). It easily breaks fur coat walls, the 1hp god, imposters, and other stuff that is meant to wall it. (sry that im lazy and dont hv calcs)

secondly if it was ever a threat to u guys it was definitely one to me. my opponents always jaw locked me when i aint got u-turn. as mentioned above im not sure if it really works like this, but it seemed to permanent trap my mewtwo after i killed the jaw locking aegislash. i faced 2 teams in a row that spammed jaw lock and brings in dragapult to end my career

thirdly i think that it isnt zacian that is broken. interpid sword, or specifically, gorilla tactics is the key that made zacian spam teams so successful right now. with GT auto functioning as a band, adding another band involves no cost at choosing only 1 move. ban GT (or intrepid sword) and zacian would just end up being a faster MMY imo.

with the meta centralizing at zacian, zamazenta, zekrom, reshiram, and many other ground-weak mons, the lack of ground types now should really be fixed...
the highest BST of ground types is silvally thats lit
even all those ground moves like blades and bonemerang got removed, the highest BP is multi attack

 

[Iynhe]

Speaking about Ground types, I found some luck with Rhyperior. It's the Ground mon with the highest attack and it's adequately bulky to not die to random stuff.

Rhyperior @ Choice Band
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Accelerock
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- U-turn

This is my set. I don't know if Knock Off is good enough. Usually you want to kind of spam EQ, because it is stupidly powerful. The main problem is that it is slow, so having Wish support is almost fundamental. (No, do not try trick room, it's a stupid and weak and gimmicky startegy and it will be until GF gives us an auto TR setter.)

Zacian-C can have so many other sets (i've seen Taunt stuff, i've seen FF and Levitate) that it's stupid. Gorilla Tactics is not the problem on it. (It kind of is in general, but PLS no ban, i want to bop faces with CB-GT mons haha.) Nor is Intrepid Sword.
Sadly there aren't many mons that are really powerful, so teams look like "4 of the same or similar mons and 2 weak mons that are used to counter the other mons." Once that everything will be implemented correctly we should look at suspects.
Oh yeah, Also Zacian-C is so stupidly powerful that it's always correct to have a move on it instead on the stronges pokemon with STAB on it.
V-Create hits harder that Cinderace's, for example (given the same set.) Darm Galar Zen i don't know, since apparently does not exists in the builder.)

 

[Eldritch Crab]

Apart from Zacian-Crowned, I think that the meta has still a whole lot of holes and op stuff that needs to be fixed.
first that came to my mind is bolt beak zekrom, with electric surge (and doubling speed with surfer, making it nearly un-outspeed-able) and band boosting its base power to hilarious levels (377.5 i think). One notable mon out of the other spammers that i encountered was zeraora, which ran teravolt, smash, bolt beak under terrain and multi attack (not sure about the typing, i think ground is most suitable in the current meta). It easily breaks fur coat walls, the 1hp god, imposters, and other stuff that is meant to wall it. (sry that im lazy and dont hv calcs)

Sounds like you ran into my electric mono lol.

I do think Bolt Beak/Fishious Rend need a suspect at the very least. (I ran a similar electric mono last gen but with Plasma Fists rather than Bolt Beak, and it wasn't nearly this oppressive.) One thing I will note until that suspect day comes is Jolly Scarf Zacian-C always outspeeds Surfer Zekrom (without Zek having any additional speed boosts, of course.) Jolly Zacian-C with a scarf hits 651 speed at max invest, while Jolly Zekrom with Surge Surfer active only hits 612 speed at max invest. Bolt Beak cannot OHKO Zacian without moving first.

+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zekrom: 374-444 (92.5 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zekrom Bolt Beak vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zacian-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 274-324 (70.6 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Also the Zeraora has Ghost Memory, just to deal with the aforementioned Jaw Lock Aegi/Normalize Dragapult combo lol.)

 

[Rumors]

Rhyperior is not weak to Rock. It's weak to Ground.


Anyway, sounds like, for the moment, we might need to go back in time and call upon one of the powerful mons from Gen V: Eviolite Rhydon. Granted, it can't spam Prankster Earthquakes these days, but that thing is still pretty darn bulky (though gotta avoid Knock Off). I'll probably sit down and experiment with it some after the holiday. Which gives me time to think about a real team other than Zacian spam.

 

[asterat]

Rhyperior is not weak to Rock. It's weak to Ground.


Anyway, sounds like, for the moment, we might need to go back in time and call upon one of the powerful mons from Gen V: Eviolite Rhydon. Granted, it can't spam Prankster Earthquakes these days, but that thing is still pretty darn bulky (though gotta avoid Knock Off). I'll probably sit down and experiment with it some after the holiday. Which gives me time to think about a real team other than Zacian spam.

did someone say eviolite rhydon? flint used to constantly make fun of me for using it in gen 5 lol.

is corsola good? it's probably the bulkiest mon in the meta, right (dusclops is probably on a similar level)? i mean maybe rhydon is fatter but lots of weaknesses.

or maybe type null? it's dumb bulky,

 

[SBPC]

Yo i was reading over the thread and thought I'd point out a few things I've been running over the past month or so.

From The Grave

Marble Machine (Runerigus) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Spectral Thief
- Recover/Strength Sap
- Defog/Toxic/Thunder Wave

This thing is actually kinda flames, Ground/Ghost is incredible typing, giving it immunity to the insane Bolt Beak, Body Press, and Mbounce + Spec Thief is really good for neutering sleep sweepers and Normalize Dragapult, and despite its meager base HP of 58, but its base 145/105 defenses are really solid and let it reliably wall a good portion of the metagame.

Some alternative options I've found for it is using Water Absorb to block fishious rend/scald, or some of the slashed moves to help it fill other utility roles since all I've found it to need is Dual STABs and Healing

Something that could be looked into is Multi-Attack having base 120 and being a new judgement for beating normalize sets, which would be rad, I've also been experimenting with Perish Body + Anchor Shot but nothing fruitful for that set yet so if someone finds me something good with that post it. Zacian-Crowned is by far the most busted poke in existence and should be looked into for suspect imo but thats not my decision. Other than busted dog, ive really been enjoying bh this gen, ready to see where it goes

 

[theritz6262]

I came up with a set based off that Corsola-Galar video

Corsola-Galar @ Eviolite
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Cosmic Power
- Spore
- Strength Sap
- Body Press

We might want to limit something like this, but it's a perfectly legal set that doesn't seem to be a problem but can be if left unchecked.

 

[Iynhe]

I do agree with the raw power that rhyperior gets to, but i won't prefer it right now as it's weak to steel, which is a major con where Zacian exists. It also notably has pretty low SpD aside from low speed. I think an alternative option here is rhydon, which trade a band for eviolite. The rhino family can also easily be revenge-koed by scarf imposters with the rock typing, and eviolites have a better match-up. The support it needs doesn't end with Wish, and includes fur coat things, strength sap or whatever, as it's pretty hard to find a ground-resistant mon that isn't weak to rock

yes, of course Wish is not the only support it HAS to receive, it is just the most obvious thing it came to my mind. Of course it is not the only one XD
Also, once i (barely, like 6%) survived a SSS from Zacian. Don't know the set tho and that was the only time, lol. Yeah, Steel (and Fighting -Body Press) vulnerability is bad.
I'll try Rhydon also, I guess that Eviolite might better than raw power. Knock Off might be more present this gen tho.

About Corsola, i've seen the eviolite+ice scales set and it's really good.

 

[Phantaztique]

I made this I dunno if it's good:

Pure Evil

Leechsola (Corsola-Galar) @ Eviolite
Ability: Bad Dreams
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Strength Sap
- Infestation
- Leech Seed

Igloo (Darmanitan-Galar-Zen) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- U-turn

Bork (Zamazenta-Crowned) @ Leftovers
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Behemoth Bash
- High Jump Kick

Tyranilinks (Tyranitar) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Simple
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- No Retreat
- Substitute
- Power Trip
- Stored Power

Woof Souls (Zacian-Crowned) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Behemoth Blade
- Spirit Break
- Fishious Rend
- U-turn

ImGonnaSwing (Chandelure) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fusion Flare
- Moongeist Beam
- Shell Smash
- Clear Smog

PokePaste

 

[technikolor]

I've been playing around with the meta a bit and used the following to some good:

black days (Umbreon) @ Mail
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Defog
- Baton Pass
- Soft-Boiled

It hard walls dragapult and its natural bulk + typing makes it a good pivot (similar to Yveltal). I tried Mandibuzz before using Umbreon, but Mandi felt a bit off in testing. Mail is the only thing I know of this gen that prevents trick.

jellybaby (Jellicent) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Scald
- Spite / Filler
- Baton Pass
- King's Shield

Jellicent isn't too terrible. The water/ghost typing helps it immensely. It can take most Zacian, but needs a bit of help usually to wall it completely. The best working set I've found so far is PH.

Zacian is really over-centralizing though, to play the broken record again.

 

[Iynhe]

For Rhydon I would suggest a Rock move like Stone Edge or Rock Tomb to lower Speed on foes, for Sandstream under Dynamax, with Fur Coat or Ice Scales. 508 Defense after Eviolite with a neutral nature is just bulky enough off of 414 HP to not require Fur Coat, which means that 310 SpD from Eviolite (+ Sandstream = 465) is very much going to make a huge difference for whether you want to use Ice Scales or Fur Coat.

Special Attackers are pretty limited this generation, so I think Fur Coat works better. Plus, if you need Special Defense, you can just summon Sandstream via Dynamax and keep Fur Coat.

My tip is to consider its typing. Technically, you could also run Prankster and Electrify to block Zacian, and Zamazenta from using moves against it as it’s a Ground-type.

I'm using it similarly to Rhyperior RN

Rhydon @ Eviolite
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Accelerock
- Earthquake
- Recover
- U-turn

Prankster+Electrify tho is not useful imho. Yeah, I block their moves, but the second I try to do something else i get bopped, since Rock dies to Steel (and Fighting, damned body press XD)
Ice Scales is almost useless. There are like 4 special mons in the meta. Reshiram, Mewtwo (with psystrike), Eternatus. And Darmanitan-Zen that mainly uses special attacks to counter Zacian. But they are really not in every team, so I found that IS is useless like 4 times out of 5.

I think I won't try to create a decent team until Zacian (and possibly Zamazenta?) get out of the meta. So many mons and strategies are literally useless with 2-6 Z-doggos in the enemy team.

 

[Lectrys]

What are the implications of Defog being able to remove terrains this gen?

Didn't see it on the main post, so posting it: Defog removes terrain now

Source:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200693946848075776

If you're brazen enough to stay in and Defog, that may be a way to contain Surge Surfer Zekrom.

 

[a loser]

While there is much to consider in this early meta, the council has been discussing some of the more prominent threats and has decided to ban Gorilla Tactics.

This “Choice Band” ability combined with a Choice Band allows some of the strongest physical attackers in the meta to blow past would be checks with high powered STAB and coverage moves. Most abusers opt for Fire- and/or Ground-type coverage to take advantage of the common Steel- and Poison-type walls. This ability practically mandates Fur Coat be run to have a chance at stopping it or forces a guessing game to check it with abilities like Flash Fire or Levitate. Would-be checks are easily removed if the wrong move is guessed. We find that the ability itself is banworthy rather than its abusers, with Zacian-Crowned being the most popular at the moment.

We are still discussing taking action on things like Double Iron Bash, as it is mainly uncompetitive with its coin flip rate of flinching along with having high base power, as well as Intrepid Sword, which is similar to Gorilla Tactics but can at least be removed with things like Haze, Spectral Thief, and Strength Sap.

Tagging The Immortal to implement this.

 

[Ren]

Can I ask why you've opted to ban Gorilla Tactics and not Intrepid Sword (in addition or not). Gorilla Tactics is better on choiced mons yea but they're like almost the same thing except one gets walled by Unaware which... uh. I guess it gets Hazed too?