I was very surprised to see that Joe Merrick (Serebii) considers Gen 2 the “objectively” worst. I did not know that, I had not seen that statement from him before. I partly agree since Gen 2 is my least favorite, but I wouldn’t say it is “objectively” the worst, more like subjectively the worst. In my and his opinion, it seems.
Were Gen 1 and 2 even that good in the past? I think that’s an interesting point because I believe we perceive games differently as children compared to how we perceive them as adults. As a kid, I had tons of fun with the Gen 1 and 2 games, I won’t deny that. But if I were to play them now as an adult, without having played them as a kid in the past, I am pretty sure my opinion of them would be different. Especially if I had played other Pokémon games that I have played as an adult without having played Gen 1 and 2 as a kid. But at the same time, if I hadn’t played the older games as a kid, my opinion of the newer games would likely be very different if I played these games as an adult without having played the older games when I was a kid. So it is hard to say how it would have been.
What if I had been an adult during the Gen 1-2 days then? Good question. I want to believe that I would have had an easier time with the games if I had understood more English when I played them since the language was a pretty big barrier for me when I played them as a kid, there were a lot of things I did not understand in them back then. My English knowledge got a bit better during Gen 3, but it wasn’t really until Gen 4 when I felt that I could understand the majority of what was said in the games. But at the same time, I also want to think that I would have been better at noticing the flaws in the Gen 1-2 games if I had played them for the first time as an adult. Though I did notice some of the flaws in the Gen 1-2 games even as a kid. The lack of trainer rematches/good training spots in the Gen 1 games for instance, as well as the bad level curve and the semi-lackluster training spots in the Gen 2 games. But even so, I still enjoyed those games when I was a kid.
Would I appreciate Gen 1 and 2 more as an adult if I were to replay them now, like Tama ended up doing? Hard to say, but probably not. Back in 2010, I decided that I would never play the Gen 1-2 games again. It is a promise I have kept since then, and I have no plans to break it… unless I do end up re-buying Crystal from the 3DS VC, but I’m not sure if that will ever happen. So I don’t know. In theory, I don’t think I would enjoy the older games all that much if I went back to them today. But in practice, or rather in reality, I don’t know how it would be.
It is interesting to see how opinions can change over the years. Maybe my opinion of the older Pokémon games would change now as well if I were to replay them now, years after they were first released. To tell the truth, I’m a bit scared about finding out. The same goes for the modern Pokémon games, for that matter. What if I replayed B/W and B2/W2 now, only to find out that they weren’t as great as I remembered them, to the point that they might not even be my favorite games anymore? What if HG/SS are actually better than I remember them? However, this is only about the main story as I can still keep playing around in the post-game for all Pokémon games I own (except the Gen 1 and Gen 2 games). And whenever I return to the post-games in various Pokémon games, it generally confirms my previous opinion of them. So that’s good.
But even if I were to replay the main story of an older Pokémon game, I’m not sure if it would change my opinion of the game on the whole. Because during my hardcore Pokémon days, I considered the post-game more important than the main game, and I spent 80-90% of my playtime in the post-game. And that hasn’t really changed either, out of the 200 hours I have spent on Sword, only 40 of them were spent on the main story, which is 20%. Though it should be noted that when I played Sword, I played through both DLC packs after beating the main game. Also, when I look back at my major memories with the Pokémon games, most of them are from their post-games rather than their main games. But what if I were to replay both the main games and the post-games of the older games? I guess that would be the best way to see if my opinion of them would stay the same or if it would have changed. However, I fear that it would be too much work and take way too much time. Plus, I generally find the post-games of Pokémon games to be the most enjoyable the first times I play through them.
As for replaying the older games, the last time I tried to replay one was Red in 2006. Even back then, I found it too old and outdated for my tastes. I did make it quite far, to the 7th Gym or something IIRC. But then I just got tired of the game, quit playing it, and never returned. I have no idea about how it would be for G/S/C, can’t remember the last time I played through the main story of them, but it must have been before the release of Emerald at the very least. Probably even earlier. Either way, since they have the infamous level curve, I don’t think I would be able to make it through them nowadays. In comparison, I think I would have a far more enjoyable time replaying a game from Gen 3 and forward, like FR/LG, Emerald, Platinum or an even newer game. Those games do not feel all that aged and outdated to me, even if signs of age are starting to show for some of them, the Gen 3 games in particular.
If I had all the time in the world, I would honestly love to replay all of the Pokémon games (one from each pair + all third versions) to see how it would be and what I would think of them today. Would my opinion stay the same as before playing through them again, or would it change? If so, would it change for the better or worse? For all games, or just for some of them? Would I get new favorites and new least favorites? As much as I would love to find the answers to all of these questions, I do unfortunately not have the time for such a project. Nor do I own a copy of each game that I can replay. The batteries for my Gen 2 carts are dead and there’s no way I’m restarting any of my games from Gen 3-7, except my extra copy of Sapphire and maybe my extra copies of Platinum and HeartGold too, but I’m not sure. So that leaves my Gen 1 games as well as Sword as the only ones I can play through… unless it turns out that the batteries of my Gen 1 games are dead as well, or something (don’t know if that can happen). I suppose I could re-buy the Gen 2 games from the 3DS VC, and try to hunt down extra copies of the others through online stores which sell old games, but that feels like it would be too much work. Not to mention the fact that it could end up becoming very expensive in the end. Looking at one of the online stores I usually buy games from, they are currently selling Pearl and Platinum for about twice the money they cost when they were new.
While I could replay the games on an emulator, I’m not too happy about that since it is illegal and my experiences with playing Pokémon games (and video games in general) on emulator is that it gives a very different feeling/atmosphere compared to playing a real cart/disc on a console it was originally meant to be played on. Plus, I’m currently burnt out on Pokémon so my motivation for doing something like this is very low at the moment. Ultimately, I guess it will never happen. But it is fun to think about.
Looking at the Gen 2 games on their own without comparing them to the other games is an interesting perspective. Unfortunately, I can’t do that. If I’m looking at a Pokémon game, I can’t help but compare said game to those from other generations. I respect Tama’s way of viewing the Gen 2 games from this perspective, but I just can’t do that myself.
I agree that G/S are more polished than R/B/Y (in terms of game mechanics and physics at least), but that does unfortunately not excuse all of their gameplay issues. From that perspective, I guess you could call G/S “the games Game Freak wanted to make from the beginning” since G/S have more polished mechanics, which makes them feel more like a game somebody would want to make. Especially compared to R/B/Y which have their many glitches and buggy mechanics which now that I look at it from this perspective, it does not really make them feel like a game somebody wanted to make.
Were they going to continue with the series after G/S? Looking back at G/S now, they do feel like the “final” Pokémon games in many ways, but I don’t really know. Were Game Freak always planning to make more new Pokémon games after G/S, or were they not? It is a mystery that I do not know the answer to.
G/S were definitely a success in terms of marketing, sales, and even playability for their time, I won’t deny that.
All Pokémon games are mostly built on the same formula, that is true. But I fail to see how G/S are the ones that try to be the different compared to the rest. The enemy team do not have a super big presence in the story, that’s true. But it means that the story in general is a lot less interesting since having a good evil team is one of the things that make certain Pokémon stories better than others (in my opinion, at least). Legendaries being more hidden was quite cool and I liked that, though I think many modern generations did the same with some of their legendaries. For instance, there’s the Regis in Gen 3, Heatran/Cresselia in Gen 4, the Swords of Justice in Gen 5 or Zygarde in Gen 6. Those Generations managed to have both one or more legendaries featured in the story and other legendaries that were optional and hidden. But as said earlier, I disliked how HG/SS made Lugia/Ho-Oh a mandatory encounter during the story as opposed to having them completely optional like they were in G/S. Though Crystal did feature a mandatory encounter with Suicune, so things were already changing at the end of Gen 2. I am not a fan of mandatory legendary encounters in general, though I can give them a pass of they manage to execute it really well when it comes to their involvement in the story. Though the only ones that really did this well were B/W IMO, though some others like OR/AS and US/UM came close.
As for the Gen 2 games making the player “create their own narrative”, I guess that is sort of true, but I never really felt that way when I played Gen 2. The games do have a story, it is just less “in your face” compared to most future generations. And even if we do look at it this way, I think most other generations also did this pretty well.
Regarding the non-linearity in the Johto games, I am not a huge fan of it. In my opinion, non-linearity in Pokémon games is pointless at best and harmful at worst. In Gen 1, it was pointless, and in gen 2, it was harmful because it came with the bad level curve and made Kanto even worse than in Gen 1 since it was too open and unenjoyable to explore. That’s my opinion at least, and it is one big reason as for why the Johto games are my least favorites.
She has an interesting way to look at how you choose to use Flash or not when you go through Rock Tunnel in the Kanto games as a “challenge”. Or if you choose to use HMs in general (except for the situations when you have to use them to get further in the game). I have never really thought of it that way, but I suppose that’s one way to look at it.
Gen 2 introduced a lot of new features and mechanics, that’s true. But Generations 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 did the same. So that is not something that’s exclusive to Gen 2.
She claims that the focus of the Johto games is exploration, and while I partly agree, I still think all Pokémon are gameplay-driven first and foremost. Anything else comes second. Exploration is a key part of all Pokémon games for sure, but the main point of the games is to catch, train and battle with your Pokémon, which makes them gameplay-driven in my eyes.
Regarding trainer rematches with the PokéGear… I have said this many times in the past, and I guess I’ll say it again: it is just too poorly executed for my preferences. I never really bothered with it in G/S/C (especially since I had the Trainer House and the SS. Aqua to use for training instead) and in HG/SS, I only used it because I was more or less forced to in order to get any training done. It worked, but it was very inconvenient and not fun to use at all. On the whole, I think other generations did trainer rematches much better with things like the Pokénav or VS. Seeker. As well as alternate methods of training, notably the Nimbasa Stadiums, Black Tower/White Treehollow and the Battle Chateau.
The games have so much to do and so much to explore that you can play for a whole day without fighting a single gym leader. That’s true. I remember it being that way in G/S/C… and in every other Pokémon game, so that’s not exclusive to Johto. I think it depends a bit on your playstyle though. Personally, I prefer to take it slow and steady when I play. At least now that I’m older, I have grown to dislike rushing through video games, so I get that feeling from all Pokémon games I have played. Including Sword. It took me over 40 hours of gameplay time to beat that game, spread out over 25 days. But it should be noted that I have a job and several other responsibilities that takes a lot of the time I could spend on playing games. Still, I think that what she says here is not exclusive to the Johto games in any way.
As for backtracking through Johto and this supposedly being a positive thing regarding the non-linearity of the region, I disagree. I usually found it very annoying to backtrack through several of the caves and areas in the Johto games, so I’d rather use Fly when I wanted to go back somewhere. Or if I had to go by foot, I made sure to stuck up on Repels and have all HMs represented in my party. Johto has many optional areas, but so does every other Pokémon game (in various quantities, I’m not sure which is the best, but I don’t think it is Johto). Overall, I didn’t find Johto to be very backtrack-friendly without Repels and HMs. I think it isn’t very re-exploration-friendly either, many other regions do that much better. And in my opinion, non-linearity is not automatically equal to good, and linearity is not automatically equal to bad.
Backtracking is never a chore for me in any Pokémon game… as long as I have Fly, that is. And I never found Johto to be easier to navigate without Fly either – not much more than any other Pokémon game at least. If anything, I found it more annoying to explore the Johto games even with Fly since you can’t Fly directly between Kanto and Johto. So I don’t consider Johto better than the other regions in that regard. I also think other games make good use of HMs for exploration as well, in various ways.
I dislike getting stuck in Pokémon games, so I am very happy that I haven’t gotten stuck all that much in the newer games. In fact, the last time I got stuck in a Pokémon game was in D/P, the first time I played through Pearl. IIRC it was because you had to speak to one specific Galactic Grunt outside of the Great Marsh which the game gave no hints towards IIRC, which was a little annoying. Still, it wasn’t that bad. And I believe they actually made this better in Platinum (not sure though). But now that I am older, I am playing the games differently and I understand more compared to when I was a kid, which means I have better chances of progression in modern Pokémon games. And while I might not personally have any issues with getting stuck in modern Pokémon games, I know for sure that the target audience can still have issues with getting stuck.
Regarding the Mystery Gift feature in G/S/C, I never got the chance to use it, sadly. I had all of the Johto games and I had some friends who had some of the Johto games as well, but I only had one GBC while none of my friends had a GBC (at least not that they used, they always used their GBAs instead) and you couldn’t use Mystery Gift with a GBA (I think?). So I missed out on that feature, and I have always felt a bit sad about that. But the fact that Mystery Gift was one of the few ways you could get extra evolutionary items makes me consider it to be an issue. They locked those items behind a feature some players wouldn’t be able to use, and that’s not good.
I never thought about how Goldenrod is such an important place with many important and necessary features, but I guess it is true now that I look back at it. No wonder I spent so much time there when I played G/S/C, I guess the music wasn’t the only thing that drove me to that city. The same did not really happen in HG/SS though.
I remember from when I played HG/SS, I had to grind a lot during the main game even if I battled all optional trainers (no PokéGear rematches included), so making use of them does not fix the level curve (at least not if you play with a full team of 6 like I did). Can’t remember how it was for G/S/C though. I know for sure that I just bruteforced through everything with my overleveled starter the first time I played Silver, and I am pretty sure I did the same during both of my playthroughs of Crystal, but I can’t remember how I did when I played through Gold or when I replayed Silver.
Are G/S/C the least casual games? If we only look at the main story, maybe. But it depends on how you consider them to be the “least casual”. Personally, I’d say they have a sort of “fake” difficulty with the games being harder through higher levels and not so much through strategy. Compare this to say, the Alola games (which I personally consider the hardest in the series, at least if you play with the Exp. Share turned off). They focus more on strategy with things like the Totems or Ultra Necrozma, which is arguably a less fair challenge if you ask me, but I think I actually prefer something like that over opponents randomly level spiking out of nowhere (the exception is Ultra Necrozma as a boss, I am not a fan of it). That said, the Alola games do have some big level jumps as well, but they do at least allow you to grind and catch up fairly easily, which can’t be said for the Johto games.
Personally, I’m not sure which Pokémon games I’d say are the least casual. I think all of them are casual in many ways (which is a good thing because they are made for children after all, not to mention the fact that many Pokémon fans are just casual players) but all of them are also hardcore in various ways. So I don’t know.
If the Johto games wants you to take your time and not rush through things, then that’s ironic because when I played G/S/C the first times as a kid, I rushed through them so hard! IIRC, on one of my playthroughs of Crystal (probably the second one), I had beaten the all 16 Gyms in the game within a little more than 16 hours of gameplay time. I had bruteforced through everything with my overleveled starter, not taking my time with the game. I would never be able to do something like that today though. Overall, it depends on how you play the games.
Are the older Pokémon games difficult or not? I guess both yes and no, it depends a bit on how we look at it. I managed to beat them as a kid, but it was not all easy. I lost a few times and got stuck at a few places as well, but I managed to make it through to the end eventually. And I believe the kids of today are having similar issues with the modern games. I know that a little from what I have seen but I also just have a feeling that it is that way, no matter what anyone says. If I were to replay G/S/C today, I would probably find them easy as long as I could stand the grinding.
As for comparing Pokémon to other RPGs, I have personally not played that many other RPGs so I don’t have a ton of super-deep knowledge or experience here. I have never played any Dragon Quest games so I have no idea how they are or how they are similar to Pokémon. But if Tama says they are similar to Pokémon, I’ll take her word for it. As for the other RPGs I have played, they are mostly JRPGs. From the ones I have played, my favorites (apart from Pokémon) are TWEWY and Xenoblade 1 & 2. I have played a few Final Fantasy games too, and while they were fun, they are not among my top favorites.
As for RPGs in general, she is right that many RPGs are set in fantasy worlds. But not all of them are. When I hear the word “RPG”, I do not immediately associate it to a fantasy world. Some RPGs are set in modern times, like the Mother/Earthbound series or TWEWY, while others like the Xenoblade series takes some inspiration from mecha and dystopian fiction as well. Then there are probably also RPGs set in completely other worlds and universes as well, but as said, my knowledge here is pretty limited so I don’t really know. Either way, I do not immediately associate RPGs with fantasy worlds even if I can understand why Tama and other people do that. For me, when I hear the word “RPG”, I think about a game which has levels, where you gain experience points and level up your characters so that they learn new moves, skills and gain stat boosts as they grow stronger during the entire game.
Based on the rather few RPGs I have played, I generally consider RPGs as a genre to be gameplay-driven rather than story-driven. But it varies heavily from game to game. Pokémon games are generally not that story-heavy, especially compared to the more story-heavy RPGs like the Xenoblade series. I consider Pokémon to be especially gameplay-driven compared to most other RPGs I have played. Yes, I agree that the Pokémon games can be considered character-driven if you see the Pokémon themselves as “characters”. But since it is about catching and training them and since they have no real characteristics outside of how they look (or what you imagine them to have), that makes the series more gameplay-driven to me.
I disagree that a “hard” game allows the player to have more opportunities to be creative. I think that you can be just as creative in an easy game. If anything, I’d say that a hard game gives you less opportunities to be creative since you might require specific things (in this case, Pokémon, moves, Abilities, items or similar) to beat specific hard opponents. As an example, take Ultra Necrozma in US/UM. Can you beat it with just your in-game team if you are unprepared for it? Probably not, at least from my experience (again, I played with Exp. Share off). But what if you are prepared for it and use specific strategies designed specifically to beat it? You’ll likely have an easier time. So I disagree with Tama about that.
G/S/C gives you lots of tools, but I think the other Pokémon games do the same. And the Johto games never felt very “immersive” to me, at least not any more than other Pokémon games. So I’m not buying the argument that they felt immersive. Or rather, I disagree with it.
I definitely feel like I was able to sort of make up my own story when I played the Gen 1 and 2 games… but the same goes for the newer games as well. Even in the Pokémon games that are more story-heavy like the Unova or Alola games, I like to think about the story and what happens afterwards or giving my own deeper thoughts to the characters and story events. If anything, I’d say that’s yet another thing that the newer generations does better than the older ones.
As for going out of your way to do things differently and making sure each playthrough is unique… that goes for every other Pokémon game too. You can make choices in all games. For example, which Pokémon do you choose for your team? Do you play with Exp. Share on or off in Gen 6/7? Do you distribute all HMs along the Pokémon in your team or do you use HM slaves? While the modern generations (starting with Gen 2, actually) have Move Deleters, those are not always available early. Either way, this is nothing that’s unique to Gen 2.
She is totally right about people having different preferences. Sadly, I feel that both Pokémon and these forums has been more “work” than enjoyment for me lately. But at the same time, I do enjoy “work” in the games as long as it lets me accomplish something I want to accomplish. Like when I RNGed a shiny Vullaby in Black two days ago, that was a bit of “work” but still very fun to do (though RNG Reporter did most of the hard work lol). So maybe it is enjoyment in that sense? Regarding level grinding, I don’t really mind it all that much as long as there are good places to level grind. Which is one big reason as for why I love the Gen 5 and 6 games so much, they have amazing training spots! But in the Johto games, there are no good places to grind, which is why I don’t enjoy the them all that much.
When it comes to level grinding during the post-game, I can partly agree that it is not that much of an issue in G/S/C. But it is in HG/SS. Apart from the Pokédex (which now contains 493 Pokémon as opposed to 251 in G/S/C), you also have Red, E4 rematches, Gym Leader rematches as well as the Battle Frontier if you are one of the unfortunate souls who doesn’t have Platinum. I think that HG/SS has a lackluster post-game, and that still stands. There isn’t a lot to do, and what little they have is very badly executed for the most part. Such as trainer rematches. But there’s another issue: even if you don’t need to grind, maybe you still want to grind? And even so, one thing you need grinding for is to train Pokémon for the Pokédex. This goes for both G/S/C, HG/SS, and all other Pokémon games. Personally, I like training Pokémon in the games (again, as long as there are good training spots), and while I can partly forgive G/S/C for their semi-lackluster training spots (using the Trainer House and the SS. Aqua worked, though I don’t recall getting overleveled thanks to either of them), I can’t do the same for HG/SS. That has always been my main issue with them and the biggest reason as for why they are my least favorite Pokémon games.
Did Johto ever feel like home to me? I think it actually did in G/S/C, but it definitely didn’t in HG/SS. I guess that’s because I like G/S/C better than HG/SS. Nowadays, I’d say Unova is the region that feels the most home to me. Even if I am from Europe, Unova still feels like home to me because it is my favorite region and generation as well as the one I have the most positive memories from.
The series definitely evolved from Gen 3 and on, I agree with that. But I don’t really agree that Gen 2 is for the nerdy RPG dudes. I can be very nerdy sometimes when it comes to Pokémon. Take my current project for instance. If it was allowed, I’d make a long post about it here on the forums. Or why just a post, it could even be a thread of its own: “Let’s Play – Pokémon: In Wonder”. Or something. It would have been cool to make such a thread, but it is not going to happen. And right now, I am done with 8/12 of this project, so it wouldn’t be as fun to post it now. It would have been better if I had made such a thread back when I started with it in early March. If it had been allowed. But writing about it in my own personal documents is also a ton of fun.
I can also be pretty nerdy for other video games, and when it comes to Pokémon, I definitely prefer the other generations over the Johto games. In the end, I suppose it depends on your taste. Some nerds might prefer the Johto games, and that’s fully okay with me. I just personally prefer most of the other generations over them. Or you could argue that I am not a nerd since I don’t like the Johto games. Guess I shouldn’t call myself a nerd then.
Are Game Freak bad at teaching players how to play their games? If we use Gen 2 as an example once more, and if they now intended the games to be played in a certain way, but the games still allow you to play them in different ways which in turn results in a worse gameplay experience, then yes. That feels like bad game design if you ask me. If there is a specific way you are supposed to play the Johto games, then they need to actually showcase it to the player.
However, I definitely agree that they are bad at teaching us the in-depth mechanics of Pokémon, that goes for most/all generations. Back in late Gen 3 when I learned about EVs/IVs/Natures and that stuff so I could get started on the Emerald Battle Frontier, I had to learn it on my own through the internet (Serebii, I did not know about Smogon at the time), not through the games themselves because they taught me little to nothing about those things. So I partly agree with Tama here. But at the same time, I guess casual players might not be very interested in these things. So while they could do a better job at teaching those things to hardcore players, it should still be mostly optional so it doesn’t come at the risk of ruining the experience for the casual players. Maybe if they kept all the basic stuff like type matchups and general stats during the main game, then focused on more in-depth mechanics like EVs/IVs/Natures etc. during the post-game? That way, both casual and hardcore players could get some fun out of it. But I don’t know if that would work, it was just a random idea I came up with. Also, I think that the main game of the Pokémon games should never be too hard either. The target demographic is still children and I’m not sure if children would manage to make it through a devastatingly difficult game. And even if we older players find the games easy, the children of today might still find them hard. I think it is possible to find a good balance here, but it is difficult. Difficulty settings would be very nice if they existed in every game. While they technically do since you can choose between Shift and Set in all games (as well as turn the Exp. Share on and off in Gen 6/7), I guess having difficulty settings be more than that would be very welcome for everyone.
I disagree about her statement that you “needed” to use daily events in order to complete the Johto games. They are helpful for sure, but they are by no means necessary. I didn’t use them all that much when I played G/S/C (during the main game at least) and I did just fine anyway. I think the games where I used the daily events the most were in D/P/P and the Unova games, they had many awesome daily events which I usually started by doing every day when I played these games.
Tama is totally right about how you need to work a lot to prepare your teams for semi-competitive challenges. As a disclaimer, I should say that I never owned either of the Stadium games and I only played (at least one of) them very little while visiting a friend, so I haven’t really experienced them that much. But from what I understand, they are similar to the Battle Facilities of the modern generations, so based on that, I’ll label the Stadium games as semi-competitive challenges.
When it comes to my own personal experiences with semi-competitive challenges in the generations past Gen 2, I remember that I had very high patience when I did my traditional breeding in Gen 3 and early gen 4 (even if the final results weren’t always as great as they could have been). Then I did RNG abuse in late Gen 4 and all of Gen 5, which went much faster and was a lot more enjoyable – and it gave me better results as well! Then Gen 6 came along and improved traditional breeding to the point that getting the right IVs was a piece of cake even without RNG abuse. Gen 7 improved upon things even further with Hyper Training, and Gen 8 took it to the next step with the Nature Mints. I never managed to beat the Battle Tower in Crystal (partly because of the fact that my teams were terrible) and I’m not sure what it would have been like to prepare semi-competitive teams in Gen 2, with limited TMs and everything. If I do re-buy Crystal from the 3DS VC and end up giving the Battle Tower another try, the preparations are one thing I am definitely not looking forward to, that’s for sure.
If they now locked various post-game content and features to Stadium 2 instead of having them in the base games of G/S/C themselves, then that’s something I dislike about Gen 2 on the whole. Yes, there were technical limitations, but it sort of feels like they wanted to cash in on more money by making certain features exclusive to the side-games. She says that Gen 2 feels incomplete without Stadium 2. I don’t really know about this since I never owned an N64 or any of the Stadium games, but maybe that’s how it is. If I am missing a large chunk of the Johto games by not having Stadium 2 to go along with G/S/C, then that does not really raise my opinion of Gen 2. Giving away the core mechanics better would have been great, but as said, I think most modern games fail when it comes to that too, so I can’t fault Gen 2 too much for that.
I did play PBR though, and I honestly liked it (unpopular opinion, yay!). But I see it more as an extra challenge for the post-game of D/P (or Gen 4 on the whole), I would not call it their entire post-game. If anything, the Sinnoh games did have a lot of enjoyable post-game content all on their own, including a Battle Tower/Frontier. There was no need of an extra game on a different console to get the full experience, it was just a bonus.
In my opinion, having a Pokémon game with a final boss at level 80-ish without giving the player any good chance to grind that far on their own is not good game design. In comparison, I think many other Pokémon games have handled their superbosses better since they have great opportunities to grind up to the same level as them without too many issues (if any issues at all). Yes, you can still beat Red with Pokémon at lower levels, but that mostly just shows that the fight in itself is easy, so it means that isn’t all that great in the end anyway. “Unfair”. Yeah, that’s one of the words I’d use to describe the Red fight as well, but not the only one.
As for picking Chikorita as your starter in the Johto games… I picked it once, which was on my first playthrough of Crystal. Looking back at my memories from that playthrough now, I can easily say that Chikorita is without any doubt the worst starter I have ever used in any Pokémon game to date. It struggled to win in almost every single important battle, and in several unimportant battles too. The only battle in Johto where I can remember that it was great was against Whitney, it nuked her to pieces. If memory serves me correct, my then-Bayleef was admittedly a bit overleveled, but IIRC it 2HKO’d both Whitney’s Clefairy and Miltank with Razor Leaf. Other than that, it was terrible in every other important battle in Johto. It was probably better in Kanto, but by that point I was already in the post-game so it didn’t matter. Not sure if I ever reached Red on that playthrough though. Either way, because of my bad experiences with using Chikorita in Crystal, the Chikorita line is easily my least favorite out of all starters that exist. It was the one Johto starter I did not pick in HG/SS, and there’s a good reason why.
Grinding does not make the games “boring for everyone”. As said earlier, I do enjoy grinding if there are good grinding spots, there’s nothing like seeing my own Pokémon grow quickly when it is fun to grind.
I agree that the games are among the most fun when you win through strategy and not through being overleveled, which is one of the reasons as for why I like battling in Battle Facilities since it is impossible to win through being overleveled in them (apart from at the regular lines at the Battle Tree in US/UM, but those are an exception and they are still okay). However, I also enjoy casual playthroughs of the main stories of the Pokémon games, I think the games can be fun even without being super difficult.
I can forgive Gen 2 for a lot as it was still relatively early on in the series, but I’m pretty harsh towards the level curve and the lack of training spots, no matter if a “complex playstyle” was what they might have been aiming for. It feels more like bad gameplay design to me and I’m not so fond of that. HG/SS on the other hand are even more unforgivable because they had an opportunity to fix the issues of G/S/C, yet they did next to nothing.
I don’t care much for what the games “tried to accomplish”, what I care about is what they actually ended up being in the end. That’s what matters to me. G/S/C are not my favorite Pokémon games, but they were very fun for their time at least, that much is for sure. HG/SS on the other hand… nope. What the Johto remakes were, and what they tried to be, neither appealed to me that much compared to the other regions/generations, especially the other modern ones.
I don’t consider Gen 2 (and 1) to be deeper than the newer generations. If anything, it is the other way around for me, I consider the newer generations to be deeper. They have more content and features as well as more complicated mechanics, which allows for much more different strategies, making them deeper than the older games which weren’t all that deep when you look back at them. I also feel that the newer generations are a lot deeper when it comes to story, characters, lore and world-building. That’s my opinion at least.
As for accomplishing everything in the games… I have to admit that I never really got to do that in G/S/C, but either way, it is still something that is in no way exclusive to them. Other games have a lot of things to accomplish too, and they can certainly give you a special feeling of accomplishment when you reach the goal regarding something you have been dreaming about for a long while. For me, that has happened at several times in the games past Gen 2. Some of the most notable situations were when I finally got my first Gold Symbol at the Emerald Frontier, when I beat 105 battles in a row at the Battle Tower in D/P/P, when I completed the Pokédex in HG/SS, beat the Subway in B/W, the Maison in X/Y and OR/AS, the Tree and the Agency in Gen 7, as well as many other things. All Pokémon games have this, it is in no way exclusive to the Johto games at all.
Tama says that there are no daily events in Kanto in the Johto games, but she is actually wrong regarding this. Because there are a few daily events in Kanto as well. Not as many as in Johto, but still a few. There’s the rival rematch at Indigo Plateau (which is located in Kanto) on Mondays and Wednesdays, the SS. Aqua travels between both regions, there’s the Clefairy Dance at Mt. Moon on Mondays, and you can get a massage from Daisy in Pallet Town every day (for whatever reason, this is not listed on Serebii). IIRC there are some berry trees in Kanto as well. So she’s wrong there. HG/SS added a few more daily events in Kanto too.
For me, Kanto doesn’t really “ruin” the Johto games, but I really wish it was better executed. I think having two regions in the same game can work if they actually execute it well and put some effort into it, but unfortunately, they didn’t do that in the Johto games. My biggest issue with Kanto in the Johto games is that it is lackluster compared to the post-games of other Pokémon games. At first glance, it looks so great. You have an entire new region to explore after beating the game! Unfortunately, it isn’t as great as it looks. There’s almost no story whatsoever, going through the Kanto Gym Leaders doesn’t feel very motivating since you don’t really gain anything from it. Access to Mt. Silver? That’s just another lackluster post-game area, so it is not very fun. Grinding against wild Pokémon is basically impossible since they are too weak, the regular trainers are also pretty weak for the most part, and trainer rematches suffer from being terribly executed. So yeah, it is two regions in one game, but it is not good.
When it comes to hardware limitations, I’d much rather have had them spent that time and effort on improving Johto instead of including Kanto alongside it. It would probably have been very different in the end, but I would have liked to see how it had turned out. Though it appears that this was not the case according to one of the comments on the video. Even so, I still wish they had expanded on Johto and focused on making it better instead of including Kanto along with it.
Still, I’m willing to forgive G/S/C for a lot of their issues. It is HG/SS I have more of a problem with. They could have fixed everything, but they didn’t, and that’s just a big shame.
I don’t recall feeling that emotional when I first got to Kanto in Silver, but it has been many years since that happened, so… I might be remembering wrong. IIRC I had been spoiled on Kanto existing in the games from one of my friends before I made it so far myself. He had the games, had had them for longer than me and he was more experienced with Pokémon back then. He had told me about Kanto being in G/S/C, which sort of ruined the surprise for me.
I disagree about every space in Johto being memorable. Some areas are memorable for sure, but far from all of them. And not all of them are memorable in a good way either.
Would I rather have had all the new Pokémon during the main game instead of during the post-game so that the post-game would have been even more empty? Well, how about this: since you are in Johto during the main game and in Kanto during the post-game, put the majority of the Johto Pokémon (and their evolutionary relatives) in Johto, and the majority of the Kanto Pokémon in Kanto. You still have the Pokédex to complete after beating the game, so having some Kanto Pokémon that can only be found in Kanto during the post-game and not in Johto during the main game would have worked just fine for me. They actually did that for some Kanto Pokémon, and that’s cool! Too bad they decided to do it for far too many of the Johto Pokémon as well. While I do think some rare Pokémon should be hard to find, making several of the new Pokémon unavailable until the post-game is just plain bad game design IMO. They could just as well have made them rare or hard to find in Johto during the main game instead. Having the Larvitar line available before the E4 wouldn’t have been too much of an issue, it is not like you could get a Tyranitar before beating the game anyway. I highly doubt any player would have the patience to train a pseudo-legendary Pokémon all the way to level 55 before taking on the E4 in the Johto games.
She says that you can’t Fly from New Bark Town to the Indigo Plateau in G/S/C, and that’s true. But there is an easy way to get around this. You can’t Fly from New Bark Town to the Indigo Plateau, but if you are at either New Bark Town or Mt. Silver and then go west a few steps (use Surf if you are in New Bark Town) until you cross the border to Kanto, you will now be in Kanto and you can Fly to the Indigo Plateau from there. I was honestly very surprised to see that she didn’t know about this, especially since she seems to have played G/S/C a lot. This was something I personally figured out back when I played G/S/C a kid. I have considered trying to get in contact with her just to tell her about this.
And yes, HG/SS partly “fixed” this, but you still can’t fly between Kanto and Johto, which is extremely annoying. It no longer makes sense in the remakes either since there are no technical limitations (as far as I know) and both regions are now on the same map. You can still fly to Victory Road and Indigo Plateau from everywhere, but that is not enough. It creates some really stupid situations, like if you Fly to Mt. Silver in Johto, then go east a few steps until you are in Kanto, you can no longer Fly back to Mt. Silver since you are in Kanto! It really feels like a prime example of bad game design to me. It made sense in G/S/C (one map for each region and technical limitations) so I can forgive them for that, but HG/SS have no excuses for having such bad game design.
She talks about putting 300 hours into the game and not running out of things to do. That sounds more like other Pokémon games to me. Notably those with a bigger post-game than the Johto games. Such as Emerald, D/P/P, Gen 5, Gen 6, Gen 7, maybe even Gen 8 with the DLC. Not G/S/C or HG/SS. Here’s some random trivia: HG/SS are the only modern Pokémon games which I have spent less than 200 hours on (individually, not in total). In general, I usually average about 250-500 hours on my games (it varies heavily, but somewhere between there at least). And then I have done practically everything in HG/SS except beaten the Battle Frontier (already beaten it in Platinum, don’t want to go through it twice more) and made post-game teams (which I don’t feel like because training Pokémon in games with bad training spots is not fun).
I never really thought about the thematics that much when playing the Johto games. The graphical limitations on the GBC hardware meant that the traditional VS. modern feeling that Johto and Kanto were supposed to give was lost for me, and in HG/SS, it was too badly executed just like pretty much everything else in those games.
…
Those are my thoughts on this video. I do not agree with everything Tama said, but I respect her opinions. This video was very interesting and informative, it gave me surprisingly much to think about. I’m glad I finally got around to watching it. I’m also sorry for writing so much about this video, but as said, it gave me much to think about and I decided to write down everything.
Before watching the video, I thought it would be about both G/S/C and HG/SS, but it was pretty much only about G/S/C. Though a lot of what was said about the original Johto games can be said about the remakes as well.
The video was pretty good, but not perfect. I wish she talked a bit slower at times because I sometimes had a hard time following what she was saying. I think she talked too fast during a large chunk of the video. I also found the way she showed pictures with text to be quite annoying, those were shown very quickly while she was talking (and often saying something completely different than what she was saying) at the same time. It forced me to pause the video so I could read the text. I think she could have showed these images for longer and stayed quiet while showing them (or just reading what they said) so I could have a chance to read/listen in my own tempo. But even with this issues, I still enjoyed the video. However, I have no plans to watch any other videos by her at the moment.
