Demonology

GB_Packers_Ftw

GB_Packers_Ftw

LOOKS LIKE FAVRE GOT SHUT DOWN
Ok, so i thought that i would start this thread gathering opinions on Demons. It's a rather religous topic, and is very close to Angelology, the study of Angels. I believe most of it. In fact i did a research report on them in school, and am now considered a complete lunatic. Ill give you a brief background of what happened according the the Holy Bible, and various religous, or paranormal websites.

First of all I'm going to start by saying Demons are not ghosts. Demons are "fallen angels". Evidently some angels were angered when God created man, and gave them free will. By having free will this put humans above angels in stature. Lead by Satan, these angels waged a war in the Heavens, and ultimately lost. St. Micheal banished Satin and sent im into the depths of the earth forever, and also banished all the angels that fought agaisnt God. Henceforce, they are fallen angels that cannot be forgiven.

All demons want is to wipe out the human race. Unlike "ghosts" their intent is always malicious. They can only seriously hurt you if you go hunting for them however. The most common way, which tbh is rather rare, is possession. The only cure for a possession is of course an exorcism. For example http://youtube.com/watch?v=1HjeyxnvvuQ that link is a real exorcism. Theres really no way that you could go about faking something that intense, have all those people gather, and have him make that kind of inhuman noise. Sure, anything is possible with editing right? But look at the other posts by that user of the same priest. He just keeps on doing more and more exorcisms.

Just for reference, i have never seen the movie "the exorcist" im to scared lol.

Other great demon websites: http://www.the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/articles/articles.html#demonology; http://www.stmichael.pair.com/; and of course you could try wikipedia..

So..your thoughts on demonic enties? Do you think they exist? Not a believer, then tell us why? I also don't want this to turn into a God isn't real\is real thread so bear that in mind.
 
no, and because it's fairy tale bullshit

how is this topic NOT related to "God isn't real/is real"
 
Ahem, I am a Wiccan and believed in the 12th Principle of Belief for a long while. It states this:

"We do not accept the concept of absolute evil, nor do we worship any entity known as "Satan" or "the Devil", as defined by Christian tradition. We do not seek power through the suffering of others, nor do we accept that personal benefit can be derived only by denial to another."

I have since come around to the idea that evil does exist. Both spiritual and physical. Part of this came out of a discussion with my mother on this subject, which basically ended in a paradox. There is light in dark and dark in light. There is also good and evil in both light and dark.

Another source the influenced me is this show on A&E called Paranormal State, which documents the activities of the Penn State Paranormal Research Society. They were confronting a few things that were pretty damn creepy.

I still an a Wiccan and firmly believe in and worship Lady and Lord but I think we were wrong to word that belief so in stone.
 
I kind of enjoy reading about this just like I enjoy reading about mythology, but it's hard for me to take it more seriously than that : (
 
while having been greeted to a couple of really "convincing" real life exorcism sessions, i share the same sentiments as spies on this one
 
I personally don't believe in demons, as for why, I think a better question is why would you believe in demons.

Are those sunglasses new Atlas?
 
I, like most other people here, don't know how you can discuss biblical demons without discussing the Christian god.

However, on the link I found a hilarious advertisement that I AVATAR'D.
 
I can understand how he doesn't want this to degrade into "Science disproves God", vs. "God can't be disproved", no one ever budges in those things, and the other side always comes out looking ignorant. I think he wanted to bypass that and just discuss demons. But not believing in God would be a reason not to believe in demons, I just don't know if he wants the whole discussion to be about that. Sorry if I assumed too much.

So, assuming the Biblical Christian God is real:

I don't really believe you need to "exorcise" demons like stereotypes show. No holy water, fancy crucifixes, or priest required, just "faith the size of a mustard seed", like it says in the Bible. Jesus was Jesus, of course, but he was also just a human, and he "exorcised" demons just by ordering them out with faith. The whole crucifixes and holy water thing is either a show, or something to give the "exorcist" confidence.

Edit:
@Yoshipal: The Greek Gods of mythology were not "all powerful" like the Christian God is. So if the Gods of the Greeks could stand on clouds, and throw thunderbolts, yet couldn't defy science, science disproves them, but an all-powerful God wouldn't need to follow the rules of science if you get what I mean.
 
Honestly, I think if people are not put down for believing in God and demons and the like, then what would stop someone from believing in something like Zeus and the other Greek Gods? I mean, if someone were to claim that they truly believe that the ancient Greek Gods exist, they'd look like a lunatic. But it's okay for someone to believe in God...Just one of the reasons why religion is retarded, IMO. People too often confuse blatant mythology with truth.

Edit: I therefore, do not believe in demons. Most of the "possessions" are either some unknown medical condition or something else like that. I haven't researched demons or anything, but I fail to see any wide-known evidence supporting their existence. All I see is people basing their belief of them off their belief of God existing.
 
chaos said:
no, and because it's fairy tale bullshit

how is this topic NOT related to "God isn't real/is real"
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Well, i figured that some one would come out and say God isn't real, the bible is BS, and therefore demons do not exist. Then someone else would come in and be like "dude God is real" etc and then this would just be a religion thread.

Why do i believe in demons? First of all, i firmly believe the Bible is the truth. Now this isn't really convincing evidence if i was trying to convert or convince you all, which im not. However there is no way in hell all those exorcism videos could be fake. Sure, maybe one or two could be faked but not the ones i posted. The reason most people are uninformed about demons is because they are just to ignorant to believe in such an entity, or they have never encountered one. The only way you can actually convince a demon to appear to you in a humanoid form would be by means of occult magic, which is very dangerous. You also have to accept the reality that demons and angels exist, along with this comes faith in God.

@Kamikaen Crosses and Holy water are required in an exorcism to show the demon that you represent God. Also you need to be a priest, and certified to perform an exorcism. Performing an exorcism without proper training and protection from God can ultimately lead to your own possession or death by means of suicide. However, your right faith the size of a mustard seed will prevent demons from possessing you.
 
I know this is a serious topic, but I lol'ed HARD, at that video.

I don't believe in any of that shit, and how that guys horrible acting convinces anyone of demonic possession, I will never understand.

Theres really no way that you could go about faking something that intense, have all those people gather, and have him make that kind of inhuman noise. Sure, anything is possible with editing right? But look at the other posts by that user of the same priest. He just keeps on doing more and more exorcisms.
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Shoot, I forgot, it's impossible to edit multiple videos and upload them on youtube! Yeah he far exceeds the God given quota of edited videos you can upload in one lifetime.. this HAS to be real.
 
See you talk about editing, sure its possible. But i tihnk its very very unlikely. First of all, how the eff are you going to get ALL those people to just stand there? there were probably 200+ people in that room. They didn't edit them in, because they reacted when the man was healed. Those are things you just can't edit, and if you actually knew about video editing im sure you would understand that. It's not like you can just draw the people in paint either. After that, you can't just have someone change their voice and actually act that dramatic..i mean look at the sweat on his shirt and stuff, and how seriosuly he re-acted.
 
GB_Packers_Ftw said:
See you talk about editing, sure its possible. But i tihnk its very very unlikely. First of all, how the eff are you going to get ALL those people to just stand there? there were probably 200+ people in that room. They didn't edit them in, because they reacted when the man was healed. Those are things you just can't edit, and if you actually knew about video editing im sure you would understand that. It's not like you can just draw the people in paint either. After that, you can't just have someone change their voice and actually act that dramatic..i mean look at the sweat on his shirt and stuff, and how seriosuly he re-acted.
Click to expand...

You sure as hell can pay people to stand around.
 
Vampdude34 said:
You sure as hell can pay people to stand around.
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Yeah that was my first thought, but come on that would be completely daft. There are LOADS of people in that room. I've been through it, im sure it wasn't faked or fraudulent. The thing is with non-believers is the only way they can prove demons are fake is by saying the videos are edited or by saying God isn't real. I geuss that its basicly your background that depicts whether or not you believe in demons.
 
Uh, if people don't believe in something, of course they're going to come up with things to say..............That's...logic ? What else can you say?

And for this whole demon ordeal shit, that's a whole psychological matter IMO, but then again I'm not a priest nor a psychiatrist, nor have I ever been in someone's mind.
 
demonologywp9.jpg
???
 
Normally I just like watching debates unfold and see how they turn out. However, I feel compelled to point something out in the first post that hasn't been adressed yet:

"Evidently some angels were angered when God created man, and gave them free will. By having free will this put humans above angels in stature. Lead by Satan, these angels waged a war in the Heavens, and ultimately lost."

For the sake of argument, let's assume God exists. If God gave humans free will, but didn't give angels free will, where did any of the angels get the will/choice to war with God in the first place? Take your time with that one.

I suggest the topic should be confined to agruing for/against the existence of demons within the canon they originated from. From what I gather so far, that would be the christian bible and perhaps these "various religous, or paranormal websites", but only if the information they provide is real world evidence for or against the existence of demons; anyone can create a website and claim that what they type is the truth.

Since we can argue logically within the canon of mythology, such as Star Wars and Harry Potter, we can argue logically within the canon of what may or may not be mythology/reality. If we don't go this route, then (as pointed out already) this may become a God exists/doesn't thread.

Fraid I can't hear the youtube video provided due to a technical difficulty my computer has that I don't readily know how to fix. However, there's no evidence that the man couldn't make the sound on his own or that the sound heard wasn't edited in to the video. As for your concern about the unlikelihood for the number of people conspiring together to make this video, it's a possibility that there's only one actor in this video (the one apparently possessed by a demon). Give the impression that you're possessed in an area filled with people who are firm believers in demons, and there you will have a croud looking on in terrified curriousity (it doesn't hurt if there's a priest in town who supposedly preforms an exorcism on a weekly basis). It's also possible that there were no actors involved. It could be that the man was simply caught up in the idea of being possessed; he was certainly exposed to it a lot (according to the vdeo poster, exorcisms are preformed once a week in that area of Cairo). If someone get's the impression that they can be possessed by demons and they're lacking in fortitude, it becomes possible that they can subconsciously believe they are being possessed without actively being aware of it (paranoia can have that affect on people). To put it plainly, I don't trust that this video is sufficient evidence for the existence of demons.

I could make an argument against free will here, but I've gone on long enough as it is; I may just start a new thread for it later.
 
I've met and talked to enough people who have first hand accounts of exorcisms and actually were a part of it to believe that it's not made up. Although I guess people could use the logic of "well enough people have first hand accounts of UFOs" to attack it, but eh, I know these people enough that I know they wouldn't tell me complete bullshit that they have never experienced so I believe them.

Also, I never understood the "Angels don't have free will" theory, could someone enlighten me on the subject? People seemed to have preached it to me quite some times without quoting anything from the Bible itself.

Also if you really want something to think about, I recommend reading the book of Enoch and the book of Jubilees since it has an interesting view of demonology that supposedly influenced a lot of the New Testament writers --- and I think it makes more sense than the stuff preached nowadays based on the book of Ezekiel.
 
Mr.E wins the thread, that was my first thought as well. Personally I believe angels and demons are really sweet to use as fictional concepts in stories and games, but I don't believe in their existence.
 
No scripture declares that angels have no free will. From the fact of the fall of so many of them, they obviously have some form of self- etermination. That is, they have the freedom to remain in that holy estate into which they were placed by creation or to leave their first estate for a lower one. "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day" (Jude 1:6). Clearly, they are not robots unable to do anything but obey God.
However, their condition is not like that of man. Man can be redeemed from his fallen state by the applied blood of Jesus Christ. The fallen angels have no means by which they can return to their first estate after they leave it. They will all be cast into the "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). Also, there is no mix of obedience with disobedience in the angels as there often is in regenerate man. The angels in heaven perform the commandments of God with full obedience (Psalm 103:20-21). The fallen angels are simply "the angels that sinned" (2Peter 2:4). No good is seen in them.

I got this from http://www.learnthebible.org/q_a_free_will_of_angels.htm as I myself could not quite understand how they were able to do this. I also suspect that we were placed above Angels in the sense that we were realeased onto the Earth, whereas Angels were not
 
I once read a statement saying that angels are God's way of intervening with earthly matters without him directly appearing to humanity.
 
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