Can we blacklist this topic please? We’ll get there when we get there
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Resource BDSP OU Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Eve
- Start date
A few threats not in suspect test plan that imo needs to be addressed asap:
Garchomp: Absolute menace with basically 0 counters apart from Hippowdon and Slowbro, where even Slowbro suffer from Outrage and Hippo is really nowhere to be seen.
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Togekiss: 263-309 (70.3 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 173-204 (43.9 - 51.7%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery*
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 185-218 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
*Valid Counter as Regen + Outrage absorber can play around chomp, limiting its performance. Still very hard to play with as slowbro falls under 2HKO range of Earthquake next time
The above are common moves for LO chomp, although it suffers from 4MSS it is still an absolute beast to deal with defensively. 102 speed is higher than the majority of the meta especially most defensive pokemons so that 2HKO lands. Imo the #1 reason why balance has very little presence in the meta.
Magnet Pull: Dragmag is very very powerful and Magnet Pull is what enables it. Also it limits switching in which is the major component of competitive play. Magnezone is not the issue as Magneton does essentially the same thing, I'd be fine if both of them are banned in place of Magnet Pull though.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 202-238 (58.8 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 174-205 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Rather than just banning all Dragons that can break past Clefable, it is much more reasonable to ban the magnet, so that steel types can actually do their job on being the defensive component rather than "I need to U-turn instead of clicking recovery after being chipped".
I believe with those gone (as well as Manaphy thats on the plan of suspect already) the metagame will be much more balanced, and by that time we can better see how the other so-called threats perform :)
Garchomp: Absolute menace with basically 0 counters apart from Hippowdon and Slowbro, where even Slowbro suffer from Outrage and Hippo is really nowhere to be seen.
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Togekiss: 263-309 (70.3 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 173-204 (43.9 - 51.7%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery*
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 185-218 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
*Valid Counter as Regen + Outrage absorber can play around chomp, limiting its performance. Still very hard to play with as slowbro falls under 2HKO range of Earthquake next time
The above are common moves for LO chomp, although it suffers from 4MSS it is still an absolute beast to deal with defensively. 102 speed is higher than the majority of the meta especially most defensive pokemons so that 2HKO lands. Imo the #1 reason why balance has very little presence in the meta.
Magnet Pull: Dragmag is very very powerful and Magnet Pull is what enables it. Also it limits switching in which is the major component of competitive play. Magnezone is not the issue as Magneton does essentially the same thing, I'd be fine if both of them are banned in place of Magnet Pull though.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 202-238 (58.8 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 174-205 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Rather than just banning all Dragons that can break past Clefable, it is much more reasonable to ban the magnet, so that steel types can actually do their job on being the defensive component rather than "I need to U-turn instead of clicking recovery after being chipped".
I believe with those gone (as well as Manaphy thats on the plan of suspect already) the metagame will be much more balanced, and by that time we can better see how the other so-called threats perform :)
Wouldn,t be surprised if Chomp gets suspected (not clear if I will vote Ban, but at least this time I would consider it, the Mon is really hard to check), but disagree about the Magnet. Almost any single Steel except Skarmory has something as counterplay:
-Scizor: Yes, Specs Zone 2HKOs, but Specs Zone has to predict Scizor coming in or staying, since Scizor has U-Turn. We have had Magnet Pull and Scizor (with some powerful Dragons too) in the same meta from Gen 4 and it has never been an issue.
-Skarmory: This one is trapped, but Shed Shell is a thing. Just 4 OU Mons run Knock Off, of which one doesn,t use it (Alakazam) and Skarmory won,t be switching usually into another one (Crawdaunt). The item was invented literally for things like Magnet Pull, use it.
-Jirachi: Faster than Zone and has U-Turn.
-Lucario: Only issue for him is ScarfZone, which I believe will disappear after Manaphy is banned.
-Empoleon: Trapped. Magnezone takes a lot of damage when switching in, though. Also, if you really fear Zone, you can run EQ Empoleon, which doesn,t OHKO, but leaves Zone very weak.
-Heatran: Outspeeds and OHKOs Zone.
Niche Steels are also able to battle against Zone.
-Bronzong: Has EQ and very high bulk.
-Registeel: Has EQ and very high bulk.
-Metagross: Has EQ and can outspeed Zone (if Jolly or if Adamant vs Modest Zone).
-Steelix. Hard to fit, but totally ignores Zone.
-Aggron: Very bad regardless of Zone, but has EQ.
-Forretress: Same. Also, learns Voltswitch to escape.
-Bastiodon: Pretty much unviable, but also learns EQ and Metal Burst too.
-Probopass. Pretty much unviable too, but countertraps Zone and OHKOs it with Earth Power.
-Mawile: Unviable even without Zone.
-Wormadam-Trash: The name already says it all.
Despite not really being an argument, Zone, dragons and other Steels coexisted since DPP (for 2 Gens, even without Fairies) and there have never been issues. I don,t see a relevant change for which now suddenly it became unhealthy or broken.
In fact, I think Zone's presence in the meta has always been positive due to relevant Spikers being Steel types. Spikes are very strong and usually dominating strategy so having Skarmory forced to use Shed Shell looks like a positive thing for me.
I would go even further and say Shadow Tag should be unbanned in this Meta. If you look to the old suspect threads when the ability was banned in regular OU, 95% of people didn,t even mention Wobbuffet, it was only the Gothi line the one broken aspect of it, due to learning Trick and Rest. Wobbuffet does punish Choiced Mons, but has way fewer targets to trap. Walls are not as affected as before, since Wobba now can,t use Tickle + be paired with a Pursuiter.
I guess this last part is not relevant yet, Mapanhy has to be treated first regardless of what you think about trapping abilities.
-Scizor: Yes, Specs Zone 2HKOs, but Specs Zone has to predict Scizor coming in or staying, since Scizor has U-Turn. We have had Magnet Pull and Scizor (with some powerful Dragons too) in the same meta from Gen 4 and it has never been an issue.
-Skarmory: This one is trapped, but Shed Shell is a thing. Just 4 OU Mons run Knock Off, of which one doesn,t use it (Alakazam) and Skarmory won,t be switching usually into another one (Crawdaunt). The item was invented literally for things like Magnet Pull, use it.
-Jirachi: Faster than Zone and has U-Turn.
-Lucario: Only issue for him is ScarfZone, which I believe will disappear after Manaphy is banned.
-Empoleon: Trapped. Magnezone takes a lot of damage when switching in, though. Also, if you really fear Zone, you can run EQ Empoleon, which doesn,t OHKO, but leaves Zone very weak.
-Heatran: Outspeeds and OHKOs Zone.
Niche Steels are also able to battle against Zone.
-Bronzong: Has EQ and very high bulk.
-Registeel: Has EQ and very high bulk.
-Metagross: Has EQ and can outspeed Zone (if Jolly or if Adamant vs Modest Zone).
-Steelix. Hard to fit, but totally ignores Zone.
-Aggron: Very bad regardless of Zone, but has EQ.
-Forretress: Same. Also, learns Voltswitch to escape.
-Bastiodon: Pretty much unviable, but also learns EQ and Metal Burst too.
-Probopass. Pretty much unviable too, but countertraps Zone and OHKOs it with Earth Power.
-Mawile: Unviable even without Zone.
-Wormadam-Trash: The name already says it all.
Despite not really being an argument, Zone, dragons and other Steels coexisted since DPP (for 2 Gens, even without Fairies) and there have never been issues. I don,t see a relevant change for which now suddenly it became unhealthy or broken.
In fact, I think Zone's presence in the meta has always been positive due to relevant Spikers being Steel types. Spikes are very strong and usually dominating strategy so having Skarmory forced to use Shed Shell looks like a positive thing for me.
I would go even further and say Shadow Tag should be unbanned in this Meta. If you look to the old suspect threads when the ability was banned in regular OU, 95% of people didn,t even mention Wobbuffet, it was only the Gothi line the one broken aspect of it, due to learning Trick and Rest. Wobbuffet does punish Choiced Mons, but has way fewer targets to trap. Walls are not as affected as before, since Wobba now can,t use Tickle + be paired with a Pursuiter.
I guess this last part is not relevant yet, Mapanhy has to be treated first regardless of what you think about trapping abilities.
The whole part about Magnet Pull is that it nerfed a lot of steels enough (even Timid or Scarf Zone does the same) towards the point that they cannot reliably check what steel types are supposed to check, and IMO that is the biggest issue w/ Magnet Pull rn. It forcefully invalidates one of the only checks to dragon STABs in general and leaves Clefable pressured against them. I don't think deleting all dragons that can somehow break past Clefable is the solution to the meta, its obviously gonna cause more mons to leave than just banning magnet pull / zone + ton. Shadow Tag is just stupid, even wynaut was very relevant in gen5ub, let alone here in bdsp ou.
Would also like to add that dragons aren't the only things that benefit from Magnet Pull and that mons like Zam, Gengar and Weavile highly appreciate zone weakening or outright killing steels for them. Magnet Rise Zone is also very underrated, trapping all the EQ steels that can otherwise escape.
The problem isn't MPull. It's very clearly the fact that Latios and Garchomp, as well as to a much lesser degree Salamence, Dragonite and Latias, have basically 0 non-Steel answers, and the Steel answers they do have are easy to bait in and chip. Clef is divided between needing PhysDef to take EQs and SpD to take Psychics (as well as MG to not cry against status or Unaware to not just get boosted past) and the other Fairies are jokes. Once the broken Dragons are gone DragMag gets neutered significantly both as a core and a teamstyle, because the other Dragons simply do not force as much damage on their checks, nor do they have such a narrow pool of checks.
This isn't gen 4. Mence, chomp, latios and friends evicerate entire teams with combinations of super high attack, good bulk and excellent speed. Banning magpull is probably the best option instead of banning a shitton of dragons to the Ubers realm where they will rot in their tiny niches. Plus, steels are a cornerstone in any balanced or offense team and when removed teams can fall apart quickly because of the lack of checks to dangerous threats like drum azu and sd weavile.
Mag is worse than its ever been stop relying on your steels to do all the work and or relying on total fat shit to sit on everything. Most of the steels dont even cover the combined dragons that well, Zam, Gar, Weavile can beat most of the steels by themselves barring Scizor. Also Manaphy suppose to be suspected right after Latios (Latias lowkey better), how are you guys jumping the gun on the weaker aspect of Dragmag and Alakazam which is stronger, the brainlessness that is Clef, clicker that is Loom and pinning the blame on something thats not even top 10 in terms of being good in the meta? 
No. Just no. The thing is, Wobb can still do degenerate things with Shadow Tag. The only thing that changed is that Ghost types cannot be trapped... which hardly affects it because Ghost is one of the rarest types in the game anyway (specifically, second rarest after Ice). You may not be able to combine it with a Pursuit user any more... but that doesn't matter much when you most likely get a free setup opportunity because they'll be forced to switch either from getting Encored (if the opponent thinks they're gonna set up on it) or Tickled. And in the event the opponent elects to attack, it's still a return to sender that blows up anything that can't one-shot it.
But you yourself have just said that the problem with dragmag is that the dragons go super fucking crazy. If we assume this is true, then the problem is the dragons, not the fact that Magnezone gets rid of the steels that, by your logic, are the only things holding them back.
re: Shadow Tag
No, if you think Wobbuffet is healthy for this metagame where it's banned in one where the power ceiling is so much higher, I genuinely don't know what to say to you. General trapping is unhealthy to a basis (hi Dugtrio, Gothitelle and BW Chandelure) and the fact that you can either secure a kill through CounterCoat or momentum through Encore means you're just getting so much advantage by slotting it (and even Wynaut, since with this much hazard removal we have even Sash CounterCoat works) without any drawbacks, so of course we won't allow it (probably, HOPEFULLY) ever again.
re: Magnet Pull/Dragmag
Quoting other people, if the fact that removing the Steel out of the enemy's team means you lose to DragMag (you don't, but that's another story) I'd argue it doesn't mean that Magnet Pull is the problem, more than the Dragons are, since if we were to believe this it means they're uncheckable except for a very select few Pokémon in defensive counterplay, not to mention limited forms of trapping always existed too (hi Heatran), and we're not deeming them broken; if we are deeming ONE broken, it's because of what THAT form of trapping enables, not of what that form of trapping is; counterwise, we can deem that trapping as a mechanic is utterly broken because of the advantages you get, and Magnet Pull is the last form of "free" trapping (meaning you don't have to use a move to trap) we have, but I'd still argue it's what it enables the problem, not what it does, especially since getting rid of the item slot for a bunch of them isn't even that detrimental or most of them still are able to escape it. And lastly, if the "broken" part is that it traps CERTAIN steels that are conveniently the ones that (at least by general thinking in this thread) are holding off the Dragon menace, it should come naturally that needing specifically those Steels at all is the problem, not the fact that you can trap them.
tl;dr dragons (too?) good, and you should either embrace it or do something about it
No, if you think Wobbuffet is healthy for this metagame where it's banned in one where the power ceiling is so much higher, I genuinely don't know what to say to you. General trapping is unhealthy to a basis (hi Dugtrio, Gothitelle and BW Chandelure) and the fact that you can either secure a kill through CounterCoat or momentum through Encore means you're just getting so much advantage by slotting it (and even Wynaut, since with this much hazard removal we have even Sash CounterCoat works) without any drawbacks, so of course we won't allow it (probably, HOPEFULLY) ever again.
re: Magnet Pull/Dragmag
Quoting other people, if the fact that removing the Steel out of the enemy's team means you lose to DragMag (you don't, but that's another story) I'd argue it doesn't mean that Magnet Pull is the problem, more than the Dragons are, since if we were to believe this it means they're uncheckable except for a very select few Pokémon in defensive counterplay, not to mention limited forms of trapping always existed too (hi Heatran), and we're not deeming them broken; if we are deeming ONE broken, it's because of what THAT form of trapping enables, not of what that form of trapping is; counterwise, we can deem that trapping as a mechanic is utterly broken because of the advantages you get, and Magnet Pull is the last form of "free" trapping (meaning you don't have to use a move to trap) we have, but I'd still argue it's what it enables the problem, not what it does, especially since getting rid of the item slot for a bunch of them isn't even that detrimental or most of them still are able to escape it. And lastly, if the "broken" part is that it traps CERTAIN steels that are conveniently the ones that (at least by general thinking in this thread) are holding off the Dragon menace, it should come naturally that needing specifically those Steels at all is the problem, not the fact that you can trap them.
tl;dr dragons (too?) good, and you should either embrace it or do something about it
I do agree latios has gotta go. Garchomp is good but idk about banning it.
Edit: the steels aren't the only thing holding the dragons back, they are just a crucial tool in absorbing latios' psychics and other strong dragon moves. They also relieve a lot of pressure put on clefable and other defensive Pokemon.
Edit: the steels aren't the only thing holding the dragons back, they are just a crucial tool in absorbing latios' psychics and other strong dragon moves. They also relieve a lot of pressure put on clefable and other defensive Pokemon.
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I dont think Dragmag is a big deal, defensive teams have enough tools to handle dragon spam and opposite offensive teams dont care about zone and can stuff like Weavile, Mamo, Alakazam, Azumarill, Starmie, scarf Latias, and others prevent the dragons to actually do anything a regular team cant do better.
MPull reduce the options you have when teambuilding (not by much) and i dont think any of the mons that can give it good use are problematic, but i am not that decided on banning it either, i see it as a discussion worth having, as it removes 2 out of the 4 good defensive steels in the game in a way that dont allow the other player to do much without near perfect prediction, but in the other hand the meta has been fine with it so far. In the end, I would prefer a MPull ban over any mon.
When you look at that list you can see my actual problem with MPull, most steel types suck in this game, and of the few that are good you are forced to give up Leftovers recovery on Skarm or a moveslot on Empoleon, without leftover Skarm is going to take a lot of damage from sr and is going to be a pretty meh defogger that also has to check a lot of stuff like Psychock Alakazam, Mamoswine, Weavile, Staraptor, Breloom, and CB Azumarill (and them dont even care about Heatran that much). Meanwhile Empoleon cant give up Leftovers as it cant heal itself and EQ is a dead move most of the time and only good if you predict the switch.
MPull reduce the options you have when teambuilding (not by much) and i dont think any of the mons that can give it good use are problematic, but i am not that decided on banning it either, i see it as a discussion worth having, as it removes 2 out of the 4 good defensive steels in the game in a way that dont allow the other player to do much without near perfect prediction, but in the other hand the meta has been fine with it so far. In the end, I would prefer a MPull ban over any mon.
If you look at SS OU, you will see that Skarmory almost never uses Leftovers, Rocky Helmet is the most common item. "A lot of damage" is 12,5% damage. If this is a lot of damage for you, this is a proof Stealth Rock are broken. I have been in favor of banning Stealth Rock, for many years, but this exampleis just silly. Shed Shell is the right item for Skarm to use in this Meta, since there are almost no Knock Off users and Rocky Helmet doesn,t even exist.
Also, Skarmory is not a good check of Zam regardless. Its not a good Breloom check either, even if someone else absorbs Spore, Sub-Punch set do too much.
Azumarill has many checks, Steels type are not among them. Pdef Skarmory might switch into Band, but its destroyed by Belly Drum or the rare Sub-Punch. Sdef Skarmory can,t even switch into Band Waterfall.
Regarding Staraptor, he is not OU by usage. If my posts about "unviable Mons" are often being critiziced, then I can do the same to prove my points. So, Staraptor shouldn,t count as a dangerous threat one must prepare for and use a valuable Steel.
DPP had Specs Latias, BandNite and Rain Dance Kingdra too, no one ever complained about Magnet Pull and just learned to deal with it.
BW had Specs Latios, DD Multiscale Nite, SD Garchomp, Band Kyu-B and LO Hydreigon, who had no true counters. Yet no one complained about Magnet Pull, people just didn,t depend on Steels too much. And in both of these Gens, Magnezone had Hidden Power with 70 power, so it was even better due to OHKOing Scizor insted of just 2HKOing it.
Nowadays we have fairies, you have team preview to see that dangerous dragons + zone are coming, you have better Ice Moves (in DPP there was no Icicle Crash for Weavile or Mamoswine),we have weather sweepers to RK the dangerous threats, we have Sash Magic Guard Alakazam. Just cope with them and adapt instead of complaining.
I see 0 problems about Magnet Pull being in the Meta. Moreover, Garchomp is the only Mon outside of Manaphy that I feel could be looked for Suspect. Everything else is totally fine. Probably Wobba, Drizzle and Blaziken are fine too but won,t even bother defending them right now.
(unless its subpunch and you're already damaged you can check Breloom, fyi)
ngl this discourse is kinda ass since both DPP and BW OU were whole different metas than this, but also just saying in regards of old DPP half of the dragons we're touting now were banned back then, sooo.....
but really, there's no point in comparing
Staraptor is OU by usage right now, but that isnt the point of the discussion.
Im not a native speaker so maybe i chose the wrong word for shed shell skarm, and i know is not a good check for Azumarill in general, thats why i listed it as CB (the set you can check with skarm). Is a different meta and i dont really like using shed shell skarm as the kind of threads it has to check here put too much pressure to give up the passive recovery, maybe the meta isnt too skarm friendly even outside of trapping.
I do agree with most of your points, the meta seems to be doing fine with it, after all i dont even think dragmag is a problem. But Magnet Pull is one of the few things im not really sure on how to feel about in this meta right now and is good to see opinions from both sides.
And i agree with a Garchomp suspect even if im not leaning ban right now.
I would go even further and say Shadow Tag should be unbanned in this Meta. If you look to the old suspect threads when the ability was banned in regular OU, 95% of people didn,t even mention Wobbuffet, it was only the Gothi line the one broken aspect of it, due to learning Trick and Rest. Wobbuffet does punish Choiced Mons, but has way fewer targets to trap. Walls are not as affected as before, since Wobba now can,t use Tickle + be paired with a Pursuiter.
I guess this last part is not relevant yet, Manaphy has to be treated first regardless of what you think about trapping abilities.
[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't say that Shadow Tag should be unbanned, but I am interested in the prospect of Arena Trap being unbanned. Which of course would mean Dugtrio shoots up in usage as a fast ground type. But there are a couple things that have to be dissected.
Arena Trap affects all Pokemon except those with Levitate and flying types as well as anything holding Shed Shell. There are lots of flying types and levitating mons that are usable this generation. This list includes, the Rotom Forms, Staraptor, the rare Crobat, Skarmory, the Lati Twins, Dragonite, Flygon, Azelf, Uxie, (Mespirit is usable but outclassed), Mismagius, Togekiss, Bronzong, Cresselia, the rare Weezing and Claydol and other niche flyers among other things. This is an extensive list on paper but there are a couple things to consider.
One of the best roles that Dugtrio can fill is that of a weather supporter. Specifically, the means to eliminate opposing weather setters. Earthquake dispatches Tyranitar, Ninetales and Torkoal (who probably has the best chance of surviving due to a high defense stat and then killing Dugtrio) with Stone Edge to deal with Abomasnow. This would allow your weather setter to run unopposed in theory which is a powerful advantage to get. While weather is less prominent this generation, with the Drizzle ban stopping rain from being dominant (of which Dugtrio easily kills Pelipper with Stone Edge) I could see it being abused very easily with Dugtrio. The only weather setters that Dugtrio can't do much to are Hippowdon (who is rarely seen) and Politoed (who is unviable without Drizzle). Dugtrio using Arena Trap would make weather wars far scarier and far harder to stop.
Dugtrio also DESTROYS electric types very easily, and with all of the former electric OU mons losing hidden power, this is a death sentence waiting to happen for almost all electrics bar Zapdos (who can barely hurt Dugtrio). Furthermore, it's high speed means that it can do serious damage to any rock, poison or steel type that lacks a shed shell or levitate. Now, Dugtrio isn't the strongest mon offensively since it requires Life Orb or Choice Band to do serious damage, it is fast enough to at least hurt almost anything. In fact, the best resists are grass types and those are rare in OU, with many taking neutral damage due to a type that is weak to ground. Sound bad? It gets worse, or better.
Dugtrio doesn't just have dark moves, but priority dark moves in sucker punch. Which means that this damn thing can set up a substitute and start wacking away at psychics and ghosts (pun intended). It also gets Aerial Ace to kill Breloom, probably the only grass type that wouldn't fear it otherwise. But do you notice something else, take a look again. Poison and Steel types are targets. This is both great and bad for dragons. Offensively, this gives another chance to remove steel types for dragon offense and defensively it helps protect fairies by removing things strong to it, with the exception of Scizor who is hurt but not OHKO'd very easily.
So it seems like Dugtrio is completely broken? Right? Well, sort of. Dugtrio is prediction reliant if wielding a choice band which can be played with if using a team with a lot of mons that can escape arena trap. Furthermore, it is very VERY frail, especially to priority moves. With priority being commonplace Dugtrio could be manageable albeit dangerous. It also gives teams another water, ice and grass weakness which could become a disadvantage based on what it is fighting. Dugtrio's inclusion would definitely shake up a lot of things (Shed Shell would be a lot more common for instance). Is it broken? Hard to say. I am leaning towards 75% chance being broken with the 25% being its frailty and lack of sets being what holds it back. But hey, Magnet Pull Magnezone is a problem? Well, if it doesn't get a Magnet Rise in, Dugtrio wipes it from existence.
TL;DR Arena Trap Dugtrio would change things dramatically, most likely. Thoughts?
I guess this last part is not relevant yet, Manaphy has to be treated first regardless of what you think about trapping abilities.
[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't say that Shadow Tag should be unbanned, but I am interested in the prospect of Arena Trap being unbanned. Which of course would mean Dugtrio shoots up in usage as a fast ground type. But there are a couple things that have to be dissected.
Arena Trap affects all Pokemon except those with Levitate and flying types as well as anything holding Shed Shell. There are lots of flying types and levitating mons that are usable this generation. This list includes, the Rotom Forms, Staraptor, the rare Crobat, Skarmory, the Lati Twins, Dragonite, Flygon, Azelf, Uxie, (Mespirit is usable but outclassed), Mismagius, Togekiss, Bronzong, Cresselia, the rare Weezing and Claydol and other niche flyers among other things. This is an extensive list on paper but there are a couple things to consider.
One of the best roles that Dugtrio can fill is that of a weather supporter. Specifically, the means to eliminate opposing weather setters. Earthquake dispatches Tyranitar, Ninetales and Torkoal (who probably has the best chance of surviving due to a high defense stat and then killing Dugtrio) with Stone Edge to deal with Abomasnow. This would allow your weather setter to run unopposed in theory which is a powerful advantage to get. While weather is less prominent this generation, with the Drizzle ban stopping rain from being dominant (of which Dugtrio easily kills Pelipper with Stone Edge) I could see it being abused very easily with Dugtrio. The only weather setters that Dugtrio can't do much to are Hippowdon (who is rarely seen) and Politoed (who is unviable without Drizzle). Dugtrio using Arena Trap would make weather wars far scarier and far harder to stop.
Dugtrio also DESTROYS electric types very easily, and with all of the former electric OU mons losing hidden power, this is a death sentence waiting to happen for almost all electrics bar Zapdos (who can barely hurt Dugtrio). Furthermore, it's high speed means that it can do serious damage to any rock, poison or steel type that lacks a shed shell or levitate. Now, Dugtrio isn't the strongest mon offensively since it requires Life Orb or Choice Band to do serious damage, it is fast enough to at least hurt almost anything. In fact, the best resists are grass types and those are rare in OU, with many taking neutral damage due to a type that is weak to ground. Sound bad? It gets worse, or better.
Dugtrio doesn't just have dark moves, but priority dark moves in sucker punch. Which means that this damn thing can set up a substitute and start wacking away at psychics and ghosts (pun intended). It also gets Aerial Ace to kill Breloom, probably the only grass type that wouldn't fear it otherwise. But do you notice something else, take a look again. Poison and Steel types are targets. This is both great and bad for dragons. Offensively, this gives another chance to remove steel types for dragon offense and defensively it helps protect fairies by removing things strong to it, with the exception of Scizor who is hurt but not OHKO'd very easily.
So it seems like Dugtrio is completely broken? Right? Well, sort of. Dugtrio is prediction reliant if wielding a choice band which can be played with if using a team with a lot of mons that can escape arena trap. Furthermore, it is very VERY frail, especially to priority moves. With priority being commonplace Dugtrio could be manageable albeit dangerous. It also gives teams another water, ice and grass weakness which could become a disadvantage based on what it is fighting. Dugtrio's inclusion would definitely shake up a lot of things (Shed Shell would be a lot more common for instance). Is it broken? Hard to say. I am leaning towards 75% chance being broken with the 25% being its frailty and lack of sets being what holds it back. But hey, Magnet Pull Magnezone is a problem? Well, if it doesn't get a Magnet Rise in, Dugtrio wipes it from existence.
TL;DR Arena Trap Dugtrio would change things dramatically, most likely. Thoughts?
How is he prediction reliant if the oppo can't switch-
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Okay, yes, if you can't switch. But in the event you can, Levitate, Flying type or shed shell, this applies. Also, once you use the right move the opponent can just send a Revenge Killer or set up sweeper. But yeah, I see the point.Not gonna lie, whoever wants trapping abilities unbanned clearly didn't play a metagame with those trapping abilities allowed
How is he prediction reliant if the oppo can't switch-
Sorry for lack of clarification.
Idk if this means anything, but drags can function fine even without mag. Back in the day we used to throw fire blast on physical dragons to nuke steels that EQ wouldn't cover. If mag was really that much of a problem, I don't think we'd be seeing such high success from said steels despite it. Its definitely an enabler but its not warping by any means.
I think the biggest issue is how stealth broken garchomp is, and I feel like nobody is really exploring how many sets its actually capable of running (mixed chomp is funny, fuck your skarmories) to fit on any team , but that's mainly due to latios so running anything that can't waste momentum into it is a death sentence. From what I'm reading, it seems like a pretty common opinion that chomp is a little overbaring, but that's with a decent speed check in latios who can come in on locked EQ, revenge kill any non-scarf set, and chunks whatever comes in.
0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 158-186 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (2hko even with a negative nature)
comparison:
252 Atk Garchomp Fire **Fang** vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 82-98 (24.5 - 29.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 200-236 (58.3 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
IMO the prob is definitely the dragons, banning trapping abilities (ok get rid of arena trap and shadow tag...) isn't going to fix the abusers, they're still overbaring even without trapping. I just can't see magnezone (and especially probopass/magneton, unlike arena trap where even trapinch during SWSH's meta could cheese kills) leaving being the solution. Even magenzone will start falling off whenever latios isn't around to need it as a check, and whenever garchomps start rising which actually scares it off.
I think the biggest issue is how stealth broken garchomp is, and I feel like nobody is really exploring how many sets its actually capable of running (mixed chomp is funny, fuck your skarmories) to fit on any team , but that's mainly due to latios so running anything that can't waste momentum into it is a death sentence. From what I'm reading, it seems like a pretty common opinion that chomp is a little overbaring, but that's with a decent speed check in latios who can come in on locked EQ, revenge kill any non-scarf set, and chunks whatever comes in.
0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 158-186 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (2hko even with a negative nature)
comparison:
252 Atk Garchomp Fire **Fang** vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 82-98 (24.5 - 29.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 200-236 (58.3 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
IMO the prob is definitely the dragons, banning trapping abilities (ok get rid of arena trap and shadow tag...) isn't going to fix the abusers, they're still overbaring even without trapping. I just can't see magnezone (and especially probopass/magneton, unlike arena trap where even trapinch during SWSH's meta could cheese kills) leaving being the solution. Even magenzone will start falling off whenever latios isn't around to need it as a check, and whenever garchomps start rising which actually scares it off.
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on a more serious note, I have been looking through this thread for the past few days and boy has it been a mess. A lot of the justifications for arguments on both sides of things have been either: heavily flawed and exagerrated, or heavily flawed and understated. Now I dont mean that all of the things brought up here have been a joke but a lot of this are just plainly misguided.
View attachment 389760
Hello,
I wish a good sunday to everyone playing this fine tier!
Unfortunately everyone doesn't want you to have fun and one of them is this devil...
I have played tons of BDSP OU and recently it has been very difficult to deal with this pokemon. Spore is the main problem with him, it not being a 2 turn sleep, but being max 3 turns and 100% accurate move. Technician is an incredible ability, which allows Breloom to dish out massive damage with Bullet Seed, Mach Punch and Rock Tomb. I myself have used Swords Dance as a replacement for Rock Tomb. Currently there are close to none spore absorbers in the tier or anywhere near it. Natural Cure users don't count as they have a bad matchup anyways. Magic Bouncers we have are Espeon and Xatu, both frail and despite Xatu resisting both Grass and Fighting, Rock Tomb is definitely not a bad move for the agaricus. Azelf has been a pretty good lead against it, Flamethrower and hope the Loom gets only 2 hits with Bullet Seed :D. One very desperate coping method I saw was Neutralizing Gas Weezing specifically for Loom, ridiculous
Lead sash variant is deadliest in my opinion. You need to be very careful around it and then also consider Choice Scarf. Bulky Offense or Balance definitely doesn't like having 1 pokemon asleep. It's always going to be difficult for Hyper Offensive teams to deal with Loom as it always seems to get 1 pokemon to sleep, practically making it a sacrifice, and get a lot of momentum to top it off. Rock Tomb removes all hopes of taking advantage of it with for example Dragon Dance Dragonite.(
)
&
(lmao...)
Breloom heavily restricts building and is a very problematic pokemon, it is going to get even worse if Latios gets banned. Definitely should be put on the table in Council.
somewhat of a decent rating i had
Breloom is a Pokemon most people really exagerrate in its breaking capabilities, and a lot of it is on the basis it either: Can infinitely click Spore and render all switch-ins useless bar those that absorb it, or if its a Choice Banded set it will always click the right move and will always force out something.
The first one, while obviously not true, is still a heavily exagerrated issue. Not every Pokemon is useful in the matchup. Breloom also has a lot of extremely noticable flaws, such as its middling Speed tier in a Offense-infested Metagame, extremely poor bulk where behemoths like Latios and Feraligatr share the same offensive prowess as Loom, but actually have the bulk to consistently pressure the opponent. Now that thats been set, ill address the post.
It does a lot of Damage, issue is without SD on non-choiced sets it honestly doesnt do a lot of damage. Grass is a terrible offensive typing, and more so in a tier where Dragon-types are the premier offensive threats in the Metagame, and Steel-types are basically mandated in every team bar a very few limited niche teams. Mach Punch is only really decent offensively, and with stuff like Latias gaining in popularity alongside its counterpart, as well as overall fast Mach Punch resistant Pokemon like Alakazam, Latis, Starmie, Gengar, and Azelf all being used a ton in OU a lot, and Mach Punch doesnt help with the fact that it is forced out by a ton of offensive Pokemon in the tier. It honestly isnt a ban worthy offensive threat, at least Spore SD / 3A sets, by this basis. Multiple defensive checks, extremely easy to out offence, not hard to force out due to low bulk.
This is a terrible point, it is a multi-hit Pokemon, why do you lead your Focus Sash Lead versus it? Also:
0 SpA Azelf Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 238-280 (91.1 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Azelf Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 290-342 (111.1 - 131%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(Depending on what EV spread you run, you either have a roll to OHKO, or you KO regardless)
If this is Focus Sash, you can honestly just play around it, (and build a better team to handle it). Lets say take my an edited (Infernape > Blaziken) version of IW’s successful HO team: https://pokepast.es/4ce774659d04364d
Out of every Pokemon in that team, only Cloyser (depending on Breloom set) has a negative MU vs it, every other Pokemon in the team has an out versus it. Honestly the amount of Pokemon on HO that dont lead well vs Breloom is in the minority, and you also habe to remember since it is Focus Sash that getting rocks up later on the game basically mean that its ability to “trade” is extinguished.
And even if you are forced to trade your lead vs the Breloom, it isnt hard to choose which is more of a worth trade, one of their breakers, and possibly a way for them revenge kill your say, Azumarill, is now gone. So is it really that bad of a trade?
“One very desperate coping method I saw was Neutralizing Gas Weezing specifically for Loom, ridiculous”
About this point, I think you answered it yourself. “Desperate coping method”, “ridiculous”. This is merely a case of “builld better teams” or “play better”, and definitely not the norm.
The problem with Lead Sash is that it is Sash. It is an extremely easily checked Pokemon, having a Focus Sash does give it an extra turn to Sleep, it does mean you are forced to rely on it to lead, if you dont lead with it and do something, the value of the Focus Sash is nulled, because lets be honest, the defoggers in this tier are terrible, and on an offensive team where you would use this set you would be lucky to even have a Defogger, so you either sleep something (generally you want that Pokemon to be an important member in this MU, because if not that spore was pretty much irrelevant) And with how easy it is to deal with Pokemon, even on offense teams once Spore is gone, it makes this sets efficiently extremely inconsistent. Hyper Offense honestly doesnt really give a shit about non Choiced Breloom (you mentioned Spore), because of how weak it generally is and how reliant it is on Mach Punch due to how slow it is compared to the HO Pokemon. With the likes of Dragonite, Salamence, Latias, Scizor, Alakazam, Togekiss so prominent, you’ll be lucky if you even kill 1 Pokemon. And yes, while Rock Tomb means it cant be easily taken advantage off it is still not extremely threatening without Super Effective moves, and Dragonite isnt the only Pokemon that takes advantage of off it in HO. Lastly, Balance is frankly a terrible Archetype in this current Meta, so that already excludes it from here. BO, while it does not like having a Pokemon asleep, it can deal with Breloom to a good extent, not as well as Stall / HO / Offense, but BO will always have easy to find and use counterplay to Breloom, and oftentimes even have Gliscor and Rose, the 2 best Sleep absorbers (and Breloom checks if non SD in Gliscor's case), basically rendering Breloom useless regardless. Having stuff like Roost Latios / Latias also make Breloom a breeze, and not that useful in the MU.
Also about your replay, your opponent had a terrible team (has a Zapdos for one) , and Breloom only killed more than 1 Pokemon in that match because your opponent misplayed versus you, and at best it would have just have gotten 1 kill (BSeed Nidoking, then Mach Punch it when it stayed in), then get revenged killed by Mamoswine. Worst case, it would bullet seed the Nidoking, they would go Zapdos on the Mach Punch and U-Turn out, so really you just weakened Nidoking, nothing big.
Realistically this Pokemon requires your opponent to either misplay terribly (let their wincon get slept or get outplayed like the above) and have a bad team (nothing to sleep fodder vs loom teams). Otherwise it is still a decent Pokemon, and definitely annoying to some, but thats as bad as it gets, all goos teams easily have multiple forms of counterplay to it, both defensive and offensive, and is definitely not a Pokemon that requires dedicated checks / cplay, as they are already used normally.
Please stop using arguments like this to justify stuff, DPP OU =/= BDSP OU, the meta is completely different. There are a lot of factorys that make Breloom more potent / worse in either metagame to make them pretty much incomparable, you just nitpicking specific points to boost your argument does not help. Technician, as much as you try to pass it off as a minor thing, is definitely not a minor thing, the huge damage increase that Technician provides is extremely beneficial to Breloom.
BDSP
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 120-144 (39.8 - 47.8%) -- approx. 3HKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 65-77 (21.5 - 25.5%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Compared to:
DPP
252+ Atk Breloom Seed Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 87-102 (28.8 - 33.7%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 43-51 (14.2 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO
You also seemed to forget the fact that Bullet Seed was only 10 DMG per hit back then, and now its damage output being practically doubled, makes it much stronger and worth using. Im using Seed Bomb here (even if it is Higher BP than 3 BSeeds) just to show how much it still matters, now instead of Latios switching into Sash Breloom and losing to 2 Bullet Seeds > Mach Punch, now Breloom loses. Im not using this singular situation to justify, but rather to show how meaningful Technician is. Even Technician just EXISTING gives Breloom much more options than it had before. Furthermore, im sure you can take a gander at the DPP OU Viability Rankings and compare them to some of the BDSP OU ones in the Personal Viability threats, im sure you can see how different they are, so please dont use this as an argument next time, thank you.
The fact that it bears Spiritomb and Sableye? Or the fact it can spin + provide consistent offensive pressure + while having longevity (which is not true! ) Unfortunately Starmie does not have 5 moveslots, and it cant run all the offensive moves it wants, you either not run TBolt and get walled by by all the waters, or you dont run Ice Beam and become a free switch in for one of the best offensive breakers in the metagame (Latios) and a few other miscellaneous things (Alongside not forcing out stuff like Dragonite immedietely).
Not having counters =/= broken, and vice versa. It really sucks to have to reiterate this every single day ong. Anyways, I am curious to see where you found the person using 4 attacks Garchomp. Anyways, you forgot to mention a lot of issues about Garchomp, it has to predict on the switch in for most of this to actually matter, and the fact that it is extremely easily worn down, especially with Life Orb. Unfortunately and fortunately for Garchomp, it happens to have a great defensive profile, which means you can rely on it to switch it in to soft check stuff like Infernape, Heatran, Tyranitar, and Magnezone. This means oftentimes its amazing offensive prescence is quite quickly neutered by common offensive plays. Yes, if you play extremely passively and give Garchomp 20 free turns and lose every predict it will dismantle your team, but realistically this wont happen. What will happen though is (VS a good team and a player who knows a semblance of the meta), at best Garchomp might get the opportunity to claim one kill or so, and still has to predict to do that, but it will exert pressure to the team and still soft check the aforementioned threats well and will basically always do something, its really on the player to choose how much Garchomp will do to your team, and thats why it is a A tier Pokemon in peoples eyes, no doubt about that. Another issue with it is Garchomp has great utility. When I use Garchomp I want it to also be my rocker, hey thats 1 less move now that my Garchomp cant use ! Realistically, it is hard and uncommon for Garchomp to be able to fit every move it wants, ans it definitely isnt a “click the wrong button and lose” Pokemon.
what. I can at least see where people were going with the wobb unban, but this? How is duggy prediction reliant to the stuff it traps. Forcing Shed Shell on Pokemon makes stuff like Scizor much more passive, because without Leftovers passive recovery it is going to get worn down and taken advantage off very easily, and how does priority being commonplace really affect dug? Crawdaunt and Azu (no reason for Dug to stay in on those two), Weavile (just icicle crash?), and no, you cant ”play around it” if it traps your jirachi/scizor and clicks earthquake. You also havent entertained the thought of Sub Hone Claws sets, which makes stuff like Magmezone and Choiced Raikou into a free 6-0 if they click an Electric Move.
This is assuming its choiced lock, but i dont see your argument, they remove a key part of your defensive / offensive core, that is Dugtrios purpose, after that it can die because now you cant deal with their team defensively / offensively, and ive also explained about Shed Shell prior.
cope + ratio
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PREFACE: I AM SO SORRY!
So I took a good look at BDSP meta trends and a few things became clear while looking at what's popular:
Azelf Screens HO
Stall
Hazard stacking
Few viable dark types, namely Tyranitar and Weavile (and sometimes Honchkrow and Drapion)
Unaware Clefable
Gengar
Breloom
Gliscor
Heatran
Defensive Scizor
With all that in mind I whipped up a team that utilized not one but TWO sleeper threats I felt the BDSP meta was totally and utterly unprepared for, Espeon and Sableye. While I won't post the actual team as I feel it can still be vastly improved, it hit high 1500s, so there is some definite merit with these two, either together or seperately.
The Espeon set I came up with is this meta's equivalent of SS OU's Demon Mew. Here's Demon Espeon... Demonpeon?
Espeon (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Curse
- Morning Sun
I thought to myself, with so few dark types around, a mono-Stored Power sweeper could absolutely tear shit apart, and I was right. I tried Reflect Type Latias for a sec, but it was clear it was very inconsistent, as Latias can't raise its defense and needs to invest in speed to use Reflect Type well, which means its less bulky over all. Latias also couldn't sweep worth a damn as it was prone to status and Taunt and phazing. However, Espeon here has Magic Bounce, and it doesn't give a damn about any of that. Taunt? Toxic? Thunder Wave? Whirlwind? Roar? Spore? Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope.
Espeon takes absolutely advantage of any passive mon on your foe's team and becomes an utter wrecking ball after a turn or two of set up and can 6-0 Shedninjaless stall, as many of them rely on Blissey and Unaware Clefable. I had a replay it didn't save I guess :/
Look at the list of passive things Espeon can set up in front of:
Blissey
Gliscor
Skarmory
Heatran
Tangrowth
Quagsire
Slowbro/Slowking
Empoleon
Defensive Defog Scizor (no Swords Dance)
Rundown: So as I'm sure you're aware, Stored Power is a Psychic type move that accumulates 20 BP for every boost you've accumulated. Calm Mind raises Special Attack and Special Defense, that's a given, but the real secret to making Espeon pull off sweeps is actually Curse of all things! With full defensive bulk investment, and naturally decent special bulk, and Curse and Calm Mind raising raising its defenses, Espeon quickly becomes unbreakable (besides crits, gl). After a boost or two, the lowered speed becomes a nonissue as it is traded for pure bulk. The other genius thing about Curse is that the Attack and Defense boosts STILL continuously add to Stored Power's strength but 40 BP with every use. Wowie.
With a double dance set, Espeon has the ability to select which of its defenses it needs to raise first depending on what's in front of it, or the threats waiting in the back. For instance, use of Curse in front of a Gliscor or Skarmory, or when the foe has a Breloom or Garchomp in the back, or use Calm Mind in front of Heatran or if the foe has a Gengar or Latios waiting in the back. Espeon quickly becomes absolutely overwhelming. It can beat Gengar if it's accumulated some Calm Mind boosts, but as I said earlier, Espeon needs to stay totally clear of dark types, as it cannot touch them. Since many Scizors are running defensive Defog sets, and U-Turn exits on use, Curse Espeon often beats Scizor too. Burning it with Sableye (as I did) or Flame Body Heatran would also help Espeon's odds of success against Scizor.
Espeon is also not just an endgame sweeper. Midgame, Espeon is absolutely useful too, switching into hazard setting things like Skarmory or Gliscor or Heatran or Empoleon to yeet back hazards.
I didn't run screen support with this thing, as I opted to run a stall build with it, but theoretically, Espeon could absolutely be run on HO with screens to great effect. Its manner of boosting is a little slow for HO's style but Magic Bounce does have some nice utility as it helps control hazards, and even more impressively, MAGIC BOUNCE PREVENTS DEFOG FROM REMOVING SCREENS.
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Professor Chaos
Sableye (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Recover
Math time!
No Heavy Duty Boots = hazards stack good again = Rapid Spin Starmie and Donphan good again = Sableye spinblocker good
No Heavy Duty Boots = hazards stack good again = Defog good = Taunt Sableye good
Screens HO Explosion Azelf good = Taunt Sableye good
Final Gambit leads good = Sableye good
Stall good = Taunt Sableye Stallbreaker good
Few Fairy types = Sableye good
Few Dark types = Will o' Wisp Sableye good
Gengar + Alakazam good = Sp Def Sableye good
Mach Punch Breloom and Extreme Speed Dragonite / Lucario good = Sableye good
Limited Knock Off = Sableye good
Sableye is just insanely good at disruption in this meta. Prankster gives it priority on Taunt, Will o' and Recover. It excels on hazard stack builds, which is why I chose to run it along with Spikes Skarmory, as it beats Starmie, Donphan, Forretress (anyone use that?) and with Taunt Defog Scizor and Empoleon and Latias. It beats Gengar. It drives stall crazy, walling Blissey, Skarmory, Knocking Off Leftovers on Clefable and Tangrowth, preventing recover and Taunt with hazards, burning everything. Gliscor and Heatran hate losing their items. Offense hates it too, as it prevents screen set up on Azelf, hazard set up, burns things that have already set up. I don't know what else to say. It's Sableye. He's chaos incarnate.
Just remember Prankster does not work on dark types like Tyranitar and Weavile, and it cant do much to Infernape, so when using Sableye, be sure to cover those weaknesses. I did not cover Infernape so well on my team, which is a big reason of why it still needed improvement.
-------------------------
LET'S POST SOME EXAMPLES OF ESPEON AND SABLEYE BEING A FRIGGIN NIGHTMARE AGAIN I'M SO SORRY:
The Espeon fun starts turn 12. Look at that damage on Bronzong. I'd quit too:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1469917943-rb2j6cbyis3ug2mlgeuvdqz6470724opw
Espeon beats Def Scizor 1v1, it was a crit, but I don't think it mattered:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1469976114
Sableye just harassing this whole team really. I felt bad :(
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1469890733
Sableye doing more Sableye shit, whittling down Rotom, preventing offensive Starmie from spinning rocks showing its use on hazard stack builds. Otherwise, taunting, burning, Knock Off. Also a nice double with Espeon on Jirachi to keep Stealth Rock off the field.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1470014822
My favorite game with Espeon and Sableye against a very solid balance team. Manfuba gets a little sassy, so I start sassing back. He totally mocks Curse Espeon and proceeds to be wrecked by it, karma. Plus Sable messing up Gliscor and Scizor. Also illustrates how Sableye burning Defog Scizor helps Clefable break it, clearing an Espeon sweep.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1470072474-ekf1w82zojqvimgeiic0bdnv2e01vibpw
So I took a good look at BDSP meta trends and a few things became clear while looking at what's popular:
Azelf Screens HO
Stall
Hazard stacking
Few viable dark types, namely Tyranitar and Weavile (and sometimes Honchkrow and Drapion)
Unaware Clefable
Gengar
Breloom
Gliscor
Heatran
Defensive Scizor
With all that in mind I whipped up a team that utilized not one but TWO sleeper threats I felt the BDSP meta was totally and utterly unprepared for, Espeon and Sableye. While I won't post the actual team as I feel it can still be vastly improved, it hit high 1500s, so there is some definite merit with these two, either together or seperately.
The Espeon set I came up with is this meta's equivalent of SS OU's Demon Mew. Here's Demon Espeon... Demonpeon?
Espeon (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Curse
- Morning Sun
I thought to myself, with so few dark types around, a mono-Stored Power sweeper could absolutely tear shit apart, and I was right. I tried Reflect Type Latias for a sec, but it was clear it was very inconsistent, as Latias can't raise its defense and needs to invest in speed to use Reflect Type well, which means its less bulky over all. Latias also couldn't sweep worth a damn as it was prone to status and Taunt and phazing. However, Espeon here has Magic Bounce, and it doesn't give a damn about any of that. Taunt? Toxic? Thunder Wave? Whirlwind? Roar? Spore? Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope.
Espeon takes absolutely advantage of any passive mon on your foe's team and becomes an utter wrecking ball after a turn or two of set up and can 6-0 Shedninjaless stall, as many of them rely on Blissey and Unaware Clefable. I had a replay it didn't save I guess :/
Look at the list of passive things Espeon can set up in front of:
Blissey
Gliscor
Skarmory
Heatran
Tangrowth
Quagsire
Slowbro/Slowking
Empoleon
Defensive Defog Scizor (no Swords Dance)
Rundown: So as I'm sure you're aware, Stored Power is a Psychic type move that accumulates 20 BP for every boost you've accumulated. Calm Mind raises Special Attack and Special Defense, that's a given, but the real secret to making Espeon pull off sweeps is actually Curse of all things! With full defensive bulk investment, and naturally decent special bulk, and Curse and Calm Mind raising raising its defenses, Espeon quickly becomes unbreakable (besides crits, gl). After a boost or two, the lowered speed becomes a nonissue as it is traded for pure bulk. The other genius thing about Curse is that the Attack and Defense boosts STILL continuously add to Stored Power's strength but 40 BP with every use. Wowie.
With a double dance set, Espeon has the ability to select which of its defenses it needs to raise first depending on what's in front of it, or the threats waiting in the back. For instance, use of Curse in front of a Gliscor or Skarmory, or when the foe has a Breloom or Garchomp in the back, or use Calm Mind in front of Heatran or if the foe has a Gengar or Latios waiting in the back. Espeon quickly becomes absolutely overwhelming. It can beat Gengar if it's accumulated some Calm Mind boosts, but as I said earlier, Espeon needs to stay totally clear of dark types, as it cannot touch them. Since many Scizors are running defensive Defog sets, and U-Turn exits on use, Curse Espeon often beats Scizor too. Burning it with Sableye (as I did) or Flame Body Heatran would also help Espeon's odds of success against Scizor.
Espeon is also not just an endgame sweeper. Midgame, Espeon is absolutely useful too, switching into hazard setting things like Skarmory or Gliscor or Heatran or Empoleon to yeet back hazards.
I didn't run screen support with this thing, as I opted to run a stall build with it, but theoretically, Espeon could absolutely be run on HO with screens to great effect. Its manner of boosting is a little slow for HO's style but Magic Bounce does have some nice utility as it helps control hazards, and even more impressively, MAGIC BOUNCE PREVENTS DEFOG FROM REMOVING SCREENS.
---------------------------------------------------------
Professor Chaos
Sableye (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Recover
Math time!
No Heavy Duty Boots = hazards stack good again = Rapid Spin Starmie and Donphan good again = Sableye spinblocker good
No Heavy Duty Boots = hazards stack good again = Defog good = Taunt Sableye good
Screens HO Explosion Azelf good = Taunt Sableye good
Final Gambit leads good = Sableye good
Stall good = Taunt Sableye Stallbreaker good
Few Fairy types = Sableye good
Few Dark types = Will o' Wisp Sableye good
Gengar + Alakazam good = Sp Def Sableye good
Mach Punch Breloom and Extreme Speed Dragonite / Lucario good = Sableye good
Limited Knock Off = Sableye good
Sableye is just insanely good at disruption in this meta. Prankster gives it priority on Taunt, Will o' and Recover. It excels on hazard stack builds, which is why I chose to run it along with Spikes Skarmory, as it beats Starmie, Donphan, Forretress (anyone use that?) and with Taunt Defog Scizor and Empoleon and Latias. It beats Gengar. It drives stall crazy, walling Blissey, Skarmory, Knocking Off Leftovers on Clefable and Tangrowth, preventing recover and Taunt with hazards, burning everything. Gliscor and Heatran hate losing their items. Offense hates it too, as it prevents screen set up on Azelf, hazard set up, burns things that have already set up. I don't know what else to say. It's Sableye. He's chaos incarnate.
Just remember Prankster does not work on dark types like Tyranitar and Weavile, and it cant do much to Infernape, so when using Sableye, be sure to cover those weaknesses. I did not cover Infernape so well on my team, which is a big reason of why it still needed improvement.
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LET'S POST SOME EXAMPLES OF ESPEON AND SABLEYE BEING A FRIGGIN NIGHTMARE AGAIN I'M SO SORRY:
The Espeon fun starts turn 12. Look at that damage on Bronzong. I'd quit too:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1469917943-rb2j6cbyis3ug2mlgeuvdqz6470724opw
Espeon beats Def Scizor 1v1, it was a crit, but I don't think it mattered:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1469976114
Sableye just harassing this whole team really. I felt bad :(
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1469890733
Sableye doing more Sableye shit, whittling down Rotom, preventing offensive Starmie from spinning rocks showing its use on hazard stack builds. Otherwise, taunting, burning, Knock Off. Also a nice double with Espeon on Jirachi to keep Stealth Rock off the field.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1470014822
My favorite game with Espeon and Sableye against a very solid balance team. Manfuba gets a little sassy, so I start sassing back. He totally mocks Curse Espeon and proceeds to be wrecked by it, karma. Plus Sable messing up Gliscor and Scizor. Also illustrates how Sableye burning Defog Scizor helps Clefable break it, clearing an Espeon sweep.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1470072474-ekf1w82zojqvimgeiic0bdnv2e01vibpw
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