(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon

[DrPumpkinz]

Give two more resistances for Ice, and those resistances must be important. No more, but no less.

Yeah, no. Even putting aside my usual arguments of "flaws give things character" Ice is one of the absolute best offensive types in the game. Pretty much anything that can learn a decently strong Ice move will run that recently strong Ice move semi-regularly. Even defensive non-Ice Pokemon will often run Ice Beam instead of an actual STAB. Giving Ice-type Pokemon an actual defensive presence has the potential to break Pokemon like Avalugg that were designed with minimal resistances in mind (keep in mind Avalugg, despite its poor defensive typing, has still seen genuine high-tier play, just because it's that bulky).

Consider Ground, another one of the best offensive types in the game. It also has a very respectable defensive profile, and its blend of offensive and defensive excellence make it what I would argue is the best overall type in the game. Game Freak seems to agree with me, as to balance it out, Ground has more ways to negate its damage than any other type. It has a natural type immunity in Flying, a common ability immunity in Levitate, a unique held item immunity in Air Balloon, and a unique move immunity in Magnet Rise. On top of all that, its best move can also be neutered by Grassy Terrain.

Unlike Ground, Ice is incredibly spammable, not only because it has no ways to completely negate its damage, but also because most of its moves come with a random 10% chance to OHKO the target.

Altering the type chart is not nearly as simple as many people think it is.

 

[Siggu]

The one thing I can consider giving Ice is that, since Hail is a damage-dealing weather like Sand, is a 50% Defense buff under Hail, as a counterpart.

 

[Samtendo09]

Yeah, no. Even putting aside my usual arguments of "flaws give things character" Ice is one of the absolute best offensive types in the game. Pretty much anything that can learn a decently strong Ice move will run that recently strong Ice move semi-regularly. Even defensive non-Ice Pokemon will often run Ice Beam instead of an actual STAB. Giving Ice-type Pokemon an actual defensive presence has the potential to break Pokemon like Avalugg that were designed with minimal resistances in mind (keep in mind Avalugg, despite its poor defensive typing, has still seen genuine high-tier play, just because it's that bulky).

Consider Ground, another one of the best offensive types in the game. It also has a very respectable defensive profile, and its blend of offensive and defensive excellence make it what I would argue is the best overall type in the game. Game Freak seems to agree with me, as to balance it out, Ground has more ways to negate its damage than any other type. It has a natural type immunity in Flying, a common ability immunity in Levitate, a unique held item immunity in Air Balloon, and a unique move immunity in Magnet Rise. On top of all that, its best move can also be neutered by Grassy Terrain.

Unlike Ground, Ice is incredibly spammable, not only because it has no ways to completely negate its damage, but also because most of its moves come with a random 10% chance to OHKO the target.

Altering the type chart is not nearly as simple as many people think it is.

That’s why I said “not a simple solution”, since we do need to consider other factors. What I suggested are just that; suggestion, not a solve-all.

Making Freeze anything other than the absolute most hated and RNG-based skip-your-turn major status of Pokémon will be a start.

Fighting, Rock and Fire are still common offensive type, which Fighting and Fire also very good offensive type too. Alongside Steel, Ice still have a whopping four weaknesses so even two more resistances isn’t going to instantly turn a defensive Ice-type into a metagame breaker, because such common weaknesses are still there. Let’s not forget Stealth Rocks which forces defensive Ice Pokémon to run Heavy-Duty Boots to keep themselves healthy.

Ice as an offensive type, there’s no denying it is one of the best, especially when combined with Electric for coverage. Making one of the pre-existing Abilities to provide immunity to Ice, or better yet making one of the type immune to Ice might help keeping it in check offensively.

 

[AquaticPanic]

The one thing I can consider giving Ice is that, since Hail is a damage-dealing weather like Sand, is a 50% Defense buff under Hail, as a counterpart.

I don't really think this that good of an idea personally. Rock has historically had a focus on high phys def with mid to low Sp Def, so Sandstorm specifically patches up one of Rock's weak point. Ice on the other hand doesn't have a physical nor special bias in its defensive stats, so boosting Defense under hail doesn't particularly solve any of its specific issues as a type.

 

[Scorpio]

My ideas for improving the Ice type would be to give it a resistance to an already-powerful type (I was thinking either Water or Flying), with possibly another if need be, and giving Hail a Filter/Solid Rock effect to Ice-types when it’s active. That, and Pokémon with better stats (even defensively; an Ice mon with Ferrothorn-like stats (fantastic in both defenses, with passable attacking stats) and a decent ability would be good).

As such, adding a few fast and hard hitting Pokémon isn’t going to solve that, not helping with Ice’s alarmingly low quantity that even Dragon, the supposedly rarest type, actually have more Pokémon due to bloated with pseudos and Legends, rare in their own right to be fair.

‘’’Fun’’’ fact: Ice has had the lowest representation of any typing for the latest two generations.

 

[Sonikku A]

-Makes Ice immune to Dragon
-Adds snow weather, which increases speed of ice types, while slowing water and Dragon
-adds resists to Grass, and Flying, and Ground

There, I made it evil

 

[R_N]

Honestly I wish there was just snow weather...It's so annoying going through the designated Snow areas and just constantly dealing with it unless its a Diamond Dust day. It's really absurd because in most areas it does jut look like normal, light snow fall. Not hail. If there was just an overworld-exclusive version (something they've experimented with a few times...Sinnoh did that with Fog and Galar does it with Thunderstorms (Rain + Electric Terrain) and Mist (Misty Terrain)) that didn't deal damage that'd be fine.


It's also annoying when going through desert areas and dealing with Sandstorm, but those trend towards being optional and shorter. The snow routes/areas have often been mandatory locations and there's more ofthem or last longer (or at least SURE FEEL LIKE THEY DO).

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Having just connected to Gen IV's GTS for the first time ever in my life, I'm fully appreciating how poorly designed Nintendo's wifi functionality for the DS is/was. My home wifi was never the "right" kind, and even the wifi I'm using now isn't, so I've had to use the hotspot function on my phone to get online.

But I'm glad I finally got to try it, even if it is seven years late to the party.

 

[Siggu]

Having just connected to Gen IV's GTS for the first time ever in my life, I'm fully appreciating how poorly designed Nintendo's wifi functionality for the DS is/was. My home wifi was never the "right" kind, and even the wifi I'm using now isn't, so I've had to use the hotspot function on my phone to get online.

But I'm glad I finally got to try it, even if it is seven years late to the party.

To be fair, WEP was the most common protocol for the average user for Wi-Fi (even if it was already deprecated) so I wouldn't lash on that.

But why it took the DSi (and even then you need to have a DSi-enhanced copy, so Gen IV is still doomed) to add WPA compatibility (let me remind: WEP was already deprecated by the time the DS came out, so they had to know it was going to be abandoned anytime soon) - and why do games have to be especifically programmed to use WPA (when they all use the DS connection interface either way) is beyond my comprehension, though.

 

[Ironmage]

I don't really think this that good of an idea personally. Rock has historically had a focus on high phys def with mid to low Sp Def, so Sandstorm specifically patches up one of Rock's weak point. Ice on the other hand doesn't have a physical nor special bias in its defensive stats, so boosting Defense under hail doesn't particularly solve any of its specific issues as a type.

It's worth noting that the major users of Sandstorm's Sp.Def boost both have Sand Stream as their ability, and all of the Snow Warning mons have better Sp.Def than physical Defense (except for Abomasnow-mega, where they're equal). So a Defense boost from hail would be helping the weaker defense of the mons getting the benefit most often.

 

[Pikachu315111]

What we need is not a simple solution. We need a middle ground to make it work. I’ll keep it short and vague to not fall into wishlisting;

• Give two more resistances for Ice, and those resistances must be important. No more, but no less.

Yeah, no. Even putting aside my usual arguments of "flaws give things character" Ice is one of the absolute best offensive types in the game.

(...)

Altering the type chart is not nearly as simple as many people think it is.

Making Freeze anything other than the absolute most hated and RNG-based skip-your-turn major status of Pokémon will be a start.

Unless you add some new Types I wouldn't touch the Chart Type (at least for here).

Rather what I think Ice needs is a change to another mechanic and a way for them to do that mechanic more easily. As you could probably guess, I'm talking about the Freeze status ailment, which GF likely takes into account when making an Ice-type which could explain why many have a lopsided defensiveness.

Changes To Freeze: Freeze by far is the most OP status in the game if you're unlucky. 20% chance to thaw each turn (or use a Fire-type or specific thawing move) or else you're a sitting duck. Freeze, at its base, needs to become easier to break from. I say each turn, instead of a flat 20% each time, as the turns go on it should become more & more likely to break free (like first turn is a 1/5th chance, next is 2/5th, next turn is 3/5th, & so on). Also, in addition to the user using a Fire-type move, aif targeted by a Physical Fire, Fighting, Rock & Steel would also break the user free (or has a chance to).
Ice The Freeze Masters: So with Freeze now being easier to get out of, I think the second thing that should be done (as base) is then making it so Ice-types have both an easier time freezing and able to keep the target frozen. Make it so an Ice-type using a Freezing Ice-type move has double the chance of freezing. If they use an Ice-type move on an already frozen opponent, it lowers that Pokemon's chance of thawing by half (though, to keep it from being a flinch lock issue, maybe have frozen Pokemon receive half typless damage from Ice moves). Add additional effects to Hail and make it so Frozen is a broken status effect period, but rather it's a gimmick which Ice-types lean on.

Honestly I wish there was just snow weather...It's so annoying going through the designated Snow areas and just constantly dealing with it unless its a Diamond Dust day. It's really absurd because in most areas it does jut look like normal, light snow fall. Not hail. If there was just an overworld-exclusive version (something they've experimented with a few times...Sinnoh did that with Fog and Galar does it with Thunderstorms (Rain + Electric Terrain) and Mist (Misty Terrain)) that didn't deal damage that'd be fine.

I came up with the idea that snow is a different weather condition... but it's not one which has any effect or can be summoned. Instead its just an overworld effect EXCEPT if an Ice-type is on the field it'll auto change to Hail as long as that Ice-type is on the field. So the implication isn't that all snow is hail, but rather an Ice-type being in an environment its adapted to can take advantage of it by unconsciously changing the snow to hail to give it an advantage.

I guess it could also work in a sandstorm area. Like normally in battle it'll just say there's "dust clouds blowing around" and it won't be until a Rock- or Ground- enters battle does it turn into a full on Sandstorm.

Both of these ideas would also explain why Pokemon not of those Types are able to survive in the snow & sandstorm deserts.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Freeze by far is the most OP status in the game if you're unlucky. 20% chance to thaw each turn (or use a Fire-type or specific thawing move) or else you're a sitting duck.

Also, in addition to the user using a Fire-type move, aif targeted by a Physical Fire, Fighting, Rock & Steel would also break the user free (or has a chance to).

I think you have things backward. Any random Fire move used by the opponent will instantly thaw a Pokemon, and then there are a few moves like Flare Blitz that a frozen Pokemon can use to thaw itself.

Also a lot of the changes you proposed feel overly convoluted for a status condition. No other status condition cares about the type of the Pokemon inflicting it. The closest we have is the move Toxic having Swift accuracy when used by a Poison-type.

 

[Pikachu315111]

No other status condition cares about the type of the Pokemon inflicting it. The closest we have is the move Toxic having Swift accuracy when used by a Poison-type.

So what you're saying we do have an example of a Status Ailment that is affected by a Type often used by it.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

So what you're saying we do have an example of a Status Ailment that is affected by a Type often used by it.

No, a move that applies a status ailment. Bad poison is still bad poison no matter how it's inflicted.

 

[Antihaxxer]

I'm still annoyed that Ice doesn't resist Water, that seems so logical, will nerf one of the best offensive type and a small buff to one of the worst defensive type and that's so logical !

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I'm still annoyed that Ice doesn't resist Water, that seems so logical, will nerf one of the best offensive type and a small buff to one of the worst defensive type and that's so logical !

How is it logical? Have you ever held an ice cube under a tap?

Mechanically there are other ways to buff Ice (like making it resist Dragon) but flavour-wise Ice resisting Water doesn't make sense.

 

[Bakugames]

How is it logical? Have you ever held an ice cube under a tap?

The problem with this logic is that it can go both ways. Yeah, an ice cube melts when its on a warm water steam, but water almost immediately freezes in an icy environemnt (thats how snow and hail even happen in the first place)

You just either need to make it go both ways or accept that youre being biased to one part of the interaction, which isn't /bad/ (because if you added the entire interaction of most types the chart would be a lot weirder).

 

[Bug Maniac Aydon]

I hate how Hitmonlee hasn't been able to learn a new kick move since ADV (I get Trop Kick and Thunderous Kick are supposed to be signature moves, but Hitmonlee's signature move is given out like candy, so why not add them to his learnset?)

EDIT: Triple Axel also

 

[Siggu]

I hate how Hitmonlee hasn't been able to learn a new kick move since ADV (I get Trop Kick and Thunderous Kick are supposed to be signature moves, but Hitmonlee's signature move is given out like candy, so why not add them to his learnset?)

EDIT: Triple Axel also

So many Pokémon without legs (and one of them without any limbs whatsoever) get a move explicitly described to be a kick, yet the Kicking Pokémon doesn't get it.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

The problem with this logic is that it can go both ways. Yeah, an ice cube melts when its on a warm water steam, but water almost immediately freezes in an icy environemnt (thats how snow and hail even happen in the first place)

You just either need to make it go both ways or accept that youre being biased to one part of the interaction, which isn't /bad/ (because if you added the entire interaction of most types the chart would be a lot weirder).

Well, Water resists Ice so it's GF who are biased to one side - by your logic they should either be mutually ineffective or mutually neutral (which would make more sense than the current system imo).

Regardless, my preference would be for Ice to resist Dragon if the type were to be buffed. I'd also be in favour of a general Hail boost akin to Sandstorm's - a Speed boost for all Ice-types in Hail would be a little overpowered, but a -1 Speed drop for all other types while Hail is active would achieve the same effect while being slightly less broken.

 

[Bug Maniac Aydon]

Well, Water resists Ice so it's GF who are biased to one side - by your logic they should either be mutually ineffective or mutually neutral (which would make more sense than the current system imo).

Regardless, my preference would be for Ice to resist Dragon if the type were to be buffed. I'd also be in favour of a general Hail boost akin to Sandstorm's - a Speed boost for all Ice-types in Hail would be a little overpowered, but a -1 Speed drop for all other types while Hail is active would achieve the same effect while being slightly less broken.

Why not a boost of one of the defenses for Ice? Then it'd mirror sand the same way sun mirrors rain

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Why not a boost of one of the defenses for Ice? Then it'd mirror sand the same way sun mirrors rain

Could do, but it's not as interesting from either a mechanical or flavour standpoint. I don't think Hail necessarily needs to mirror Sand in every respect.

As discussed, most Ice-types already are fairly bulky; those that aren't, like Vanilluxe and Weavile, won't be materially improved by a +1 Defence boost. A pseudo-Speed boost like I described serves much more of a useful niche due to Ice's strong offensive prowess, and would be appreciated by slower Pokemon like Lapras and Avalugg. It also serves as a more general buff for the type as a whole, which it would benefit from.

 

[Sonikku A]

The problem with this logic is that it can go both ways. Yeah, an ice cube melts when its on a warm water steam, but water almost immediately freezes in an icy environemnt (thats how snow and hail even happen in the first place)

You just either need to make it go both ways or accept that youre being biased to one part of the interaction, which isn't /bad/ (because if you added the entire interaction of most types the chart would be a lot weirder).

Technically it takes more energy to freeze water than to melt it. This also applies for objects in motion
Hence rushing streams of water not being frozen in winter despite surrounding snow

 

[Celever]

The problem with this logic is that it can go both ways. Yeah, an ice cube melts when its on a warm water steam, but water almost immediately freezes in an icy environemnt (thats how snow and hail even happen in the first place)

You just either need to make it go both ways or accept that youre being biased to one part of the interaction, which isn't /bad/ (because if you added the entire interaction of most types the chart would be a lot weirder).

TBF, implementing the "water freezes in cold environments" logic, the type matchup would be that Ice-Type is super-effective when attacking the Water-Type, because it's the water that is damaged in that matchup, not the Ice-Type. There isn't really any justification I can see for Ice-Type resisting the Water-Type. It's either mildly affected by pretty cold water, which any water attacking the Ice-Type Pokémon would be due to the Ice-Type Pokémon itself being cold, or it's damaging the Ice-Type Pokémon due to the difference in temperature, which is what the Fire-Type is for.

Since we're all talking about how to fix the Ice-Type again, I think everyone trying to give it more defensive merit is totally missing the mark, TBH. Having a glass cannon type is legitimate -- the issue actually is that just a STAB bonus isn't enough to outweigh the Ice-Type's defensive weakness, so if you need Ice-Type coverage you're better off using a non-Ice-Type Pokémon. I'd say a balanced solution, which I doubt will ever happen, would be that when a Pokémon is hit by an Ice-Type Pokémon using an Ice-Type attack it's afflicted with the "chilled" condition. When a Pokémon is "chilled", Ice-Type attacks critical hit. The chilled status is volatile, so is gotten rid of when a Pokémon switches out. This is also potentially great for doubles, a format which Ice-Type suffers in even more than singles. Since critical hits now only deal 1.5x damage this would be entirely balanced, but has competitive merit in overcoming opposing Pokémon with defensive boosts, as crits ignore those.

This solution maintains the entire point of the Ice-Type, which is offensive merit, while giving its Pokémon a reason to be used instead of just Ice Beam on a Water-Type Pokémon.

 

[Samtendo09]

TBF, implementing the "water freezes in cold environments" logic, the type matchup would be that Ice-Type is super-effective when attacking the Water-Type, because it's the water that is damaged in that matchup, not the Ice-Type. There isn't really any justification I can see for Ice-Type resisting the Water-Type. It's either mildly affected by pretty cold water, which any water attacking the Ice-Type Pokémon would be due to the Ice-Type Pokémon itself being cold, or it's damaging the Ice-Type Pokémon due to the difference in temperature, which is what the Fire-Type is for.

Since we're all talking about how to fix the Ice-Type again, I think everyone trying to give it more defensive merit is totally missing the mark, TBH. Having a glass cannon type is legitimate -- the issue actually is that just a STAB bonus isn't enough to outweigh the Ice-Type's defensive weakness, so if you need Ice-Type coverage you're better off using a non-Ice-Type Pokémon. I'd say a balanced solution, which I doubt will ever happen, would be that when a Pokémon is hit by an Ice-Type Pokémon using an Ice-Type attack it's afflicted with the "chilled" condition. When a Pokémon is "chilled", Ice-Type attacks critical hit. The chilled status is volatile, so is gotten rid of when a Pokémon switches out. This is also potentially great for doubles, a format which Ice-Type suffers in even more than singles. Since critical hits now only deal 1.5x damage this would be entirely balanced, but has competitive merit in overcoming opposing Pokémon with defensive boosts, as crits ignore those.

This solution maintains the entire point of the Ice-Type, which is offensive merit, while giving its Pokémon a reason to be used instead of just Ice Beam on a Water-Type Pokémon.

It’s a strong solution and I started to rethink of buffing Ice, only keeping one extra resistance and removing the other so that the glass cannon nature remained true (four weaknesses vs just two resistances, one of which is itself). I actually wanna take inspiration from your idea albeit as the revamped Freeze (with the original function moved to “new” one-turn Solid Freeze and increased) instead of Chilling, as the only way to affect it is by using an Ice-type attack by an Ice-type, and only an Ice-type. Unlike other “major” statuses it also automatically thaws if the victim switches out.

Even Ice-type Pokémon with moderate Attack / Special Attack will hit like a truck with the new Chilling / revamped Freeze stuff. And those with high Attack / Special Attack will be a pressuring wallbreaker to the point even Steel-type opponents will not appreciate tanking crits so constantly, and encourages switching a lot more often.

I’ll argue this will give at least a few of them in the much more offensive-oriented Double formats too.