Updated the Cinccino set, I was EV'ing for garchomp, but completely forgot about rough skin. Also cleaned the text up a bit and redid all the calcs.
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Resource 1v1 Sword and Shield Viability Rankings
- Thread starter The Official Glyx
- Start date
Shedinja: UR to C-/D
Shedinja @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Poltergeist
- Leech Life
- Shadow Sneak
- Trick
The nomination I present is for Shedinja. Shedinja notably has terrible stats particularly having a base stat of total of 236 and notably having 1 hp. With those drawback comes its ability which is wonder guard. Wonder guard protects Shedinja from non-super effective moves. The only damage Shedinja could take is from status, weather, or from super effective moves. The ability allows Shedinja to counter some of the meta picks and even some of the ones on top of the VR. These include Tapu Fini, Sylveon lacking mystical fire, Regidrago lacking fire fang, Zygarde lacking toxic, Urshifu rapid strike, Metagross lacking rock tomb, Primarina, Tapu lele lacking shadow ball, Haxorus lacking mold breaker, and Magnezone. Shedinja does well against these picks because they often don’t carry a status or super effective move other than the moves mentioned above.
The set on for Shedinja uses a choice scarf with 252 atk to maximize damage and 252 speed with a jolly nature in order to counter other Shedinja’s with shadow sneak or at the very least get a 50/50. The power difference is not really notable since Shedinja banks on the match up having no super effective move or a status move. Trick is also the last move in order to have a better match up against Aromatisse using trick room.
Note that other sets such as band for power and safety googles to avoid weather damage ,particularly hail from alolan-ninetales, could be used. This is the set I chose for the submission.
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I love Shedinja, everyone does. Does it deserve to be ranked? Nope. Here are some reasons that you have overlooked:
Firstly, any Pokemon that goes first turn for a super effective move, you're done for. Shedinja's poor typing doesn't help it at all considering many pokemon are going to carry at least one of the following:
Fire, Dark, Ghost and Rock
Regidrago is able to beat it with fire fang
Darm flare blitz
Glastrier payback
Lando rock
The meta is already defined, it's genuinely hard to say what is wrong with this Pokemon especially in 1v1 without it turning into a long list.
You also failed to mention leech seed so Celesteela, Ferro and Venusaurar going to be big problems to your strategy.
You also lose to mons if they spam counter, as it will have more pp than trick.
So you rather struggle to death or die.
In the tiers you have tried to place it in it will ultimately fail to compete. People slander Vileplume and that is even tons of leagues ahead of this Pokemon, Shedinja is nothing but a gimmick and that won't usually work and never works as a secure spot on viability rankings unless it has a consistent niche.
If you were to place it in D rank it genuinely wouldn'tbe able to match the strengths of Pokemon in there such as Excadrill, Terrakion and Bewear
Yes, this thing has quite a lot of nice qualities. Such as it not dying to a fire type move every game because Genesect doesn't exist anymore and it beating a few top mons if they're not carrying specific moves
This post falls in with many other posts,
Just because it beats 1 moveset on 3 meta mons doesn't mean it deserves to be ranked.
Firstly, any Pokemon that goes first turn for a super effective move, you're done for. Shedinja's poor typing doesn't help it at all considering many pokemon are going to carry at least one of the following:
Fire, Dark, Ghost and Rock
Regidrago is able to beat it with fire fang
Darm flare blitz
Glastrier payback
Lando rock
The meta is already defined, it's genuinely hard to say what is wrong with this Pokemon especially in 1v1 without it turning into a long list.
You also failed to mention leech seed so Celesteela, Ferro and Venusaurar going to be big problems to your strategy.
You also lose to mons if they spam counter, as it will have more pp than trick.
So you rather struggle to death or die.
In the tiers you have tried to place it in it will ultimately fail to compete. People slander Vileplume and that is even tons of leagues ahead of this Pokemon, Shedinja is nothing but a gimmick and that won't usually work and never works as a secure spot on viability rankings unless it has a consistent niche.
If you were to place it in D rank it genuinely wouldn'tbe able to match the strengths of Pokemon in there such as Excadrill, Terrakion and Bewear
Yes, this thing has quite a lot of nice qualities. Such as it not dying to a fire type move every game because Genesect doesn't exist anymore and it beating a few top mons if they're not carrying specific moves
This post falls in with many other posts,
Just because it beats 1 moveset on 3 meta mons doesn't mean it deserves to be ranked.
Shedinja is a very interesting mon, but it doesn't beat much. It can beat some good mons, like Tapu Fini, Magnezone, and Urshifu-R, along with most Regidragos and Sylveons, and other things. However, the mon itself is way too inconsistent to be rankable. It can work, specifically as a team preview threat, but it loses to too much to be ranked, especially since it can just lose to random coverage like Mystical Fire Sylveon. Also I wouldn't use Trick, since most mons that can win would click the move that wins turn 1, and you drop to struggle, and it doesn't beat Aromatisse clicking Encore. I would recommend using Screech and Attacks, maybe with Spite only for Rest and other Healing moves. Overall it can work but it's inconsistency makes it something to keep unranked, at least to me.
Aight so as we all know I care approximately one iota about SS, so it has to be a pretty important issue for me to be making a post in this thread. With that said, I would like to voice my unequivocal support for seeing Shedinja ranked on the VR. I don't think anyone is ever gonna argue its a top threat or even anything remotely close to it, but I think people treat it inherently differently to any other mon, and this is reflected in both in game play and in ranking discussion.
The first point I'd like to touch on is this:
This is an idea I see a lot in general when it comes to discussion of Shedinja, and whilst I agree with the key idea that Shedinja is an inherently risky pokemon and provides you with almost 0 matchup clarity, I disagree with the conclusion that this alone is enough . The discussion has to be around whether the payoff for that risk is sufficient to see it ranked, even as low as D. And just to hammer this point home, I'd like to highlight another pokemon that faces similar issues but has seen notably different treatment. Slaking is ranked (or banned) in every generation of 1v1 in which it exists, despite being almost as easy to tech as Shedinja (Slaking does have alternative options in DPP and to a lesser extent BW, but for the most part is entirely shut down by protect). Yet even despite this we see semi-regular employment of Slaking in tournament play, because it can catch teams unaware and matchup fish to great effect.
Now I do not care remotely enough about SS to do full matchups for a mon being nommed to D tier, but the matchups it can win are by no means irrelevant. You're looking at like half the A range mons having relevant sets with 0 threat to Shedinja. Though I would say notably in the SS metagame, is its matchups into Sylveon, Regidrago and Fini, now unless you're psychotic enough to consider band Regidrago's best set, you're looking at beating 3 of the most defining forces in the metagame's best sets, and realistically you're beating most all variants of these mons. The idea that its completely outclassed by the pokemon in D tier is laughable (Just for the record, D tier puts it alongside mons like Torkoal, Excadrill and Golisopod. One of which hasn't been relevant since Mew got banned, another which hasn't been relevant since Mimikyu got banned in SM, and the last which has quite literally never been relevant.)
Like it or not, Shedinja is a relevant threat in the 1v1 metagame and I think there comes a point where you have to stop looking solely at its potential to lose but also consider its potential to win. Especially in a tours setting, Shedinja is a genuine tool in teambuilding, at least as much as the mons that would be alongside it, if the nom to D tier goes ahead.
The first point I'd like to touch on is this:
(I don't mean to call out murman here in particular, especially because he touches on other points but it fits my narrative so I'm rolling with it)
This is an idea I see a lot in general when it comes to discussion of Shedinja, and whilst I agree with the key idea that Shedinja is an inherently risky pokemon and provides you with almost 0 matchup clarity, I disagree with the conclusion that this alone is enough . The discussion has to be around whether the payoff for that risk is sufficient to see it ranked, even as low as D. And just to hammer this point home, I'd like to highlight another pokemon that faces similar issues but has seen notably different treatment. Slaking is ranked (or banned) in every generation of 1v1 in which it exists, despite being almost as easy to tech as Shedinja (Slaking does have alternative options in DPP and to a lesser extent BW, but for the most part is entirely shut down by protect). Yet even despite this we see semi-regular employment of Slaking in tournament play, because it can catch teams unaware and matchup fish to great effect.
Now I do not care remotely enough about SS to do full matchups for a mon being nommed to D tier, but the matchups it can win are by no means irrelevant. You're looking at like half the A range mons having relevant sets with 0 threat to Shedinja. Though I would say notably in the SS metagame, is its matchups into Sylveon, Regidrago and Fini, now unless you're psychotic enough to consider band Regidrago's best set, you're looking at beating 3 of the most defining forces in the metagame's best sets, and realistically you're beating most all variants of these mons. The idea that its completely outclassed by the pokemon in D tier is laughable (Just for the record, D tier puts it alongside mons like Torkoal, Excadrill and Golisopod. One of which hasn't been relevant since Mew got banned, another which hasn't been relevant since Mimikyu got banned in SM, and the last which has quite literally never been relevant.)
Like it or not, Shedinja is a relevant threat in the 1v1 metagame and I think there comes a point where you have to stop looking solely at its potential to lose but also consider its potential to win. Especially in a tours setting, Shedinja is a genuine tool in teambuilding, at least as much as the mons that would be alongside it, if the nom to D tier goes ahead.
The only advantage of Shedinja is that, it often forces people to pick a mon which beat it,(cause people fear it) so the play is to use the counter of the mon which counter it.
Example: I have shedinja, ferrothorn and magikarp
The opponent has urshifu strike, magnezone and coalossal.
He will use the only mon which beats shedinja so coalossal, and you have to pick specs karp to ohko coalossal, so you own him.
I mean Shedinja is usefull for the mind game, but is not a good mon.
Example: I have shedinja, ferrothorn and magikarp
The opponent has urshifu strike, magnezone and coalossal.
He will use the only mon which beats shedinja so coalossal, and you have to pick specs karp to ohko coalossal, so you own him.
I mean Shedinja is usefull for the mind game, but is not a good mon.
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I totally agree and this is why it shouldn't be ranked tbh, it being really good on the Pokemon select screen doesn't mean anything. Shedinja can't do anything if your opponent picks well. This means that it technically shouldn't be ranked considering it has no particular nice matchups.
Finally someone who speaks my language.
Seriously, Jabiru has made one of the argumentatively strongest Posts I've read in a while, and -
let's be real, a Pokemons power at preview should be taken serious:
right now, it feels like almost 90% (yes this is a hyperbole) consist of the combination of Tapu Fini + Regidrago which Shedinja has decent chances against, it Regidrago cant touch (who runs fire fang?) it and most Fini sets are also helpless against it, so shedinja is a valuable threat in preview. I by no means think that Shedinja is good, but it seems to be viable enough in terms of rescources it provides, in this case being intimidating in preview, to deserve a ranking in D Tier. Let's face it - when was the last time you used Stakataka, Bewear, Thundurus, Dragalge, Scizor or Vileplume? Do you think Shedinja is THAT much worse than these Pokemon? Perhaps its about time we clean up the lower tiers or just rank Shedinja.
Before getting into the more complicated arguments: we all agree that Shedinja hard counters any used set of Fini, Prim, Magnezone, Avalugg, and Urshifu-Rapid, right? It's worth noting that, even for those core matchups alone, barely any mon can do what shed can do at all. Hard countering all sets of all five these mons is incredibly difficult (but highly desirable from a teambuilding perspective), and shed does it before even choosing its item. (koko can kinda beat all five, but without the space to run ID it has to setguess band lugg, also it's koko so you just know it ends up losing to a crit anyway).
On top of that, shedinja matches up well against most sylveons (77%), most regidragos (81%), most metagross (83%) and nearly all tapu lele (92%), all of which are notable forces within the meta in their own right. Slapping shedinja on a team will leave you struggling a bit to cover all other matchups, but it's not useless, and there's clear patterns in what it covers (fulfilling approximately the same role as a strong grass- or steel-type, but with some side matchups that either type might struggle with). I think shedinja is actually superior to most of the stuff in D, and could probably have a shot of C- even.
The trick scarf set shouldn't be used though, aromatisse (and other encore/disable users) have no reason not to click encore t1 and bounce back the scarf, and worse every faster sub + recovery user now has a decent shot. Just go with basic max PP stall, or use vrji's endure WP sneak set.
On top of that, shedinja matches up well against most sylveons (77%), most regidragos (81%), most metagross (83%) and nearly all tapu lele (92%), all of which are notable forces within the meta in their own right. Slapping shedinja on a team will leave you struggling a bit to cover all other matchups, but it's not useless, and there's clear patterns in what it covers (fulfilling approximately the same role as a strong grass- or steel-type, but with some side matchups that either type might struggle with). I think shedinja is actually superior to most of the stuff in D, and could probably have a shot of C- even.
The trick scarf set shouldn't be used though, aromatisse (and other encore/disable users) have no reason not to click encore t1 and bounce back the scarf, and worse every faster sub + recovery user now has a decent shot. Just go with basic max PP stall, or use vrji's endure WP sneak set.
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You are missing one key thing. Zygarde can 3-0 or can quite usually beat 2 or at least 1 mon on their team. Shedinja on the other hand? If they have ANY sort of coverage, leech seed or status that isn't Paralyze... You are quite literally done for.
I mean, yea, if they have supereffective coverage/leech seed/status on every mon, then shedinja is a dead slot. If your opponent runs fairy + ferro + urshifu, then zygarde is a dead slot. If your oppo runs grass+electric+naga, then fini is a dead slot.
The whole point made by the shedinja supporters is that it will usually beat one or two mons on the opposing team, just like zygarde. You can argue that zygarde is better at 2-1ing (it is) or that shedinja is 3-0d too often to be viable (it might be), or even that shed never 3-0s a team which makes it pretty bad (hard disagree but at least people can argue that point). Saying 'shed can get 3-0d so it should not be ranked' doesn't really fit with predecent on what will or won't get accepted on the VR. Many lower-tier mons get 3-0d sometimes, but they still get ranked because this happens very uncommonly or because their good matchups outweigh the bad ones.
You are stressing the point "ANY", which literally is no counter argument to what linux said: Just because 1 mon (ANY) beats something, its not bad.
If an opponent has "ANY" coverage, shedinja is NOT done for.
I'll put it simply, so you can understand:
Yes i understand that I barely have an Influence on wether shedinja will be ranked or not - yet I am interested in a discussion with all relevant facts presented being known and all standpoints being comprehensible. You are simply not providing all relevant facts or basing your arguments without taking all of them into consideration. If I missed a stylistic device, thats my fault, nevertheless, you should formulate your posts clearly and precisely
so that non-native speakers have a chance to comprehend. (Was I the only person that missed his use of a hyperbole here?)
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not trying to add to the xenophobia and racism, just posting a more optimised shedinja set.
xenophobic (Shedinja) @ Choice Band
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- X-Scissor
- Poltergeist
- Facade
- Trick
choice scarf -> choice band (more power, not running safety goggles bc viable weather mons beat it anyway)
leech life ->x scissor (pp), shadow sneak ->facade (maybe wins some mu's vs status, +idek what sneak was for)
jolly -> adamant
4hp evs (tanks a behemoth blade from zacian-crowned)
xenophobic (Shedinja) @ Choice Band
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- X-Scissor
- Poltergeist
- Facade
- Trick
choice scarf -> choice band (more power, not running safety goggles bc viable weather mons beat it anyway)
leech life ->x scissor (pp), shadow sneak ->facade (maybe wins some mu's vs status, +idek what sneak was for)
jolly -> adamant
4hp evs (tanks a behemoth blade from zacian-crowned)
I wish people discussed and cared more about metagames and future suspects as much as they care about ranking Shedinja. Personal attacks should definitely be avoided, and people should focus on more on their opinion. Anyway, with that being said, I do understand both sides and see why some People want Shedinja ranked, and some others don't want, and at this point its just subjectivity and your opinion about the current metagame, these rankings try to picture the metagame as objectively as possible, but still there's subectivity atleast, specially when it comes to lower ranks and that's things you cannot change.
My opinion on the matter depends on how the current VR looks like. As we have said before, psychology enters a big part in 1v1 and Shedinja plays a big part when it comes to psychology. As said above, it is able to create pressure on team preview. It is true that other Pokemon such as Regidrago can also pressurize the opponent on Preview, but both do it in different ways. As previously mentioned, Shedinja has a favorable matchup against a lot of top threats, including some sets of Urshifu-RS, Metagross, Sylveon, Tapu Fini, Tapu Lele, Magnezone. It is true that some of these Pokemon can run coverage that defeats Shedinja but the point is such coverage is rare which makes Shedinja more useful than useless against these Pokemon. Now, the big difference is that, Shedinja doesn't beat a lot of Pokemon in the metagame and it can only check handful of Pokemon, and it can lose to random coverage moves, this makes Shedinja unreliable and only used in specific scenarios, and is unidimensional but can psychologically force picks and beats some unprepared Pokemon incase they don't have the coverage to deal with it, this is why I think Shedinja isn't a Pokemon that should be above D rank, C- at best.
Secondly, if we take a look at the current VR we see Pokemon such as Vileplume, Torkoal, Keldeo, Golisopod in the D ranks, and even if we go up Chandelure, Toxapex, Talonflame, Weavile in C- ranks. Are these Pokemon really better than Shedinja? Aren't they deadweight more often than Shedinja? It's a matter of "How is the VR Council ranking", and "What are the Pokemon that are currently present in the ranks". This justifies more and more Shedinja presence in the VR right now. Though if a rehaul happens, and we clean up the lower ranks, I can definitely change my opinion. The points I mentioned above (see second paragraph) plus the current ranking make me believe Shedinja does deserve currently a spot in the D ranks. I'm open to discussion on discord but I do really think wasting further energy on a potential D rank Pokemon in this thread is useless beause it will not have any relevant impact whatsoever, instead people should focus on discussing the metagame and if voice their opinion in the appropriate thread on what they think are the best Pokemon or if there's really anything unhealthy after a several months of current SS metagame.
My opinion on the matter depends on how the current VR looks like. As we have said before, psychology enters a big part in 1v1 and Shedinja plays a big part when it comes to psychology. As said above, it is able to create pressure on team preview. It is true that other Pokemon such as Regidrago can also pressurize the opponent on Preview, but both do it in different ways. As previously mentioned, Shedinja has a favorable matchup against a lot of top threats, including some sets of Urshifu-RS, Metagross, Sylveon, Tapu Fini, Tapu Lele, Magnezone. It is true that some of these Pokemon can run coverage that defeats Shedinja but the point is such coverage is rare which makes Shedinja more useful than useless against these Pokemon. Now, the big difference is that, Shedinja doesn't beat a lot of Pokemon in the metagame and it can only check handful of Pokemon, and it can lose to random coverage moves, this makes Shedinja unreliable and only used in specific scenarios, and is unidimensional but can psychologically force picks and beats some unprepared Pokemon incase they don't have the coverage to deal with it, this is why I think Shedinja isn't a Pokemon that should be above D rank, C- at best.
Secondly, if we take a look at the current VR we see Pokemon such as Vileplume, Torkoal, Keldeo, Golisopod in the D ranks, and even if we go up Chandelure, Toxapex, Talonflame, Weavile in C- ranks. Are these Pokemon really better than Shedinja? Aren't they deadweight more often than Shedinja? It's a matter of "How is the VR Council ranking", and "What are the Pokemon that are currently present in the ranks". This justifies more and more Shedinja presence in the VR right now. Though if a rehaul happens, and we clean up the lower ranks, I can definitely change my opinion. The points I mentioned above (see second paragraph) plus the current ranking make me believe Shedinja does deserve currently a spot in the D ranks. I'm open to discussion on discord but I do really think wasting further energy on a potential D rank Pokemon in this thread is useless beause it will not have any relevant impact whatsoever, instead people should focus on discussing the metagame and if voice their opinion in the appropriate thread on what they think are the best Pokemon or if there's really anything unhealthy after a several months of current SS metagame.
nomming pangoro to D
Pangoro @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker / Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Darkest Lariat / Ice Punch / Fire Punch / Thunder Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Bullet Punch
Pangoro has a nice niche in the meta at the moment, abusing gunk shot to hit fairies and mold breaker to break through sturdy. It is a lot more usable then many of the current C tiers and can be built around without too much trouble. Its access to gunk shot and stab cc and lariat differentiates it from haxorus, allowing it to hit and ohko most slower fairies. It's access to mold breaker helps it beat some sturdy mons that urshifu, a pretty similar mon, has trouble with while being offensive. Overall, this mon has alright mu's vs high tiers but really shines vs mid and lower tier mons. 2nd set beats custap mons more reliably, sacrificing a bit of power
Update: The way I see gunk shot on pangoro is coverage, that is able to hit fairies. This move also helps with grass types and is notable for allowing it to beat bulu and non moonblast whimsicott. Jolly is probably better on the set, so it actually beats specs zone. People draw the comparison between av urshifu and pangoro, however, with this set, it's faster and hits harder, therefore beating some things that bearly outspeed. Jolly gives a roll vs some fairies, however, it is better than adamant otherwise. You can also take advantage of coverage punches and run iron fist letting you hit extremely hard. It has some different mu's that offensive urshifu doesn't due to its better special bulk and pangoro's access to bullet punch over sucker punch.
Pangoro @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker / Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Darkest Lariat / Ice Punch / Fire Punch / Thunder Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Bullet Punch
Pangoro has a nice niche in the meta at the moment, abusing gunk shot to hit fairies and mold breaker to break through sturdy. It is a lot more usable then many of the current C tiers and can be built around without too much trouble. Its access to gunk shot and stab cc and lariat differentiates it from haxorus, allowing it to hit and ohko most slower fairies. It's access to mold breaker helps it beat some sturdy mons that urshifu, a pretty similar mon, has trouble with while being offensive. Overall, this mon has alright mu's vs high tiers but really shines vs mid and lower tier mons. 2nd set beats custap mons more reliably, sacrificing a bit of power
Update: The way I see gunk shot on pangoro is coverage, that is able to hit fairies. This move also helps with grass types and is notable for allowing it to beat bulu and non moonblast whimsicott. Jolly is probably better on the set, so it actually beats specs zone. People draw the comparison between av urshifu and pangoro, however, with this set, it's faster and hits harder, therefore beating some things that bearly outspeed. Jolly gives a roll vs some fairies, however, it is better than adamant otherwise. You can also take advantage of coverage punches and run iron fist letting you hit extremely hard. It has some different mu's that offensive urshifu doesn't due to its better special bulk and pangoro's access to bullet punch over sucker punch.
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Hey y'all it's Charm here back with some noms:
A+ to A
This mon is good and pretty unpredictable especially if you consider zen, but it also just really struggles from top mons (steela, gross, ferro) running sets that cheese it, entei being a super good hard counter doesn't help matters either, and in general this just tends to lose to the items custap and scarf which makes it pretty easy to slap an answer onto a seemingly vulnerable team (like ppl went into tours running custap goodra, how do you ever dare to click gdarm in that environment). Super awkward to build with too in my experience.
A+ to S-
This mon is absolutely amazing, it pairs well with nearly every dragon, can run a ton of different sets, techs would-be counters like smack down landoT, cresselia and even magnezone if it really wants to, overall just a great pokemon and a cut above A+.
A to A-
Being forced to build with necro for the CLC just made me feel this mon is incredibly overrated. All of its sets lose to a hilarious number of top tiers: stall is probably the only one with a decent array of things it beats and stall loses to every single trick/taunt user out there. Overall kind of reminds me of kyurem, but without the bit where kyurem hard counters one of the top 3 mons in the meta and has a speed stat that you don't feel bad for investing in. I did talk to murman about it and he showed some interesting sets (fast sub toxic is wild but can probably cheese out some wins), but even so I just don't think this should be in A. Frankly Lele just seems like a better psychic type overall, so even if you keep this where it is at least vote that higher.
B+ to B/B+?
Really unsure about this one, but I feel like goodra isn't necessarily great anymore in the current meta. FDS tends to 2-0 (if not 3-0) this, as all the good dragons and steels win, and most fairies give it a rough time too (can't count how often i've lost goodra-fini bc of a stray moonblast drop). At the same time, this seems like a quirky answer to FDS beaters like bulu and heatran, so maybe it should stay where it is: would love to get some discussion going on this mon as it's been pretty quiet lately.
B+ to B
Seriously, why is this in B+? Its main draw is being a dragon that beats sylveon, but sylveon has been dropping in power and it's hard to exploit from a teambuilding perspective (few two-mon cores beat all fairies except sylv). It doesn't seem all that cheeseable on paper, but in practice mons can pull out a lot of random stuff to beat it (air slash for steela, psychic for gross, etc). Also just felt really underwhelming when I first tried it.
B+ to B
Pretty sure this is one of those mons that everyone just kinda forgot to rank lower when the meta shifted. Gene is gone, there's better electrics, and while flying coverage is cute 70% accuracy is not. Just a weird mon that doesn't feel like it should be in B+.
B to B+
Not quite as great against FDS as the typing would have you believe but still able to 2-0 most of those teams. Fast taunt is nice against the cheesy mid-speed mons that've been popping up, honestly just has a lot of options to explore (balloon, custap, ID press?). Scarf is really fun too and firmly establishes a niche as a fast steel-type drago counter.
B- to C
Yes this mon is kinda cool on paper but in practice it's hell to build with and doesn't cover enough. Honestly just use landoT.
B- to B/B+
I know crits suck but this is genuinely good vs the meta now. Drago, fini, and steela are all some of the best mons right now and are frequently used together, and this annihilates all of them with zero hax involved. Fast taunt is really nice as well. If you really want to you can even explore options like Brave Bird and Charge to beat a few more things while keeping its great core matchups.
B- to B
Same story as koko: it's a fairy that doesn't lose to the things that fairies are supposed to lose to, and unlike bulu you can cover up your fire/steel weakness pretty easily. Nice top tier matchups against fini drago and zyg (arguably the top 3 and infamous for sharing few counters), has some unexplored potential for sets like encore (nice vs setup + multihit), max spd lefties (good sylveon matchup) or even cotton guard (beats glastrier iirc).
C+ to B-
Look, I know it's Worse Aggron and that aggron itself isn't great anymore, but consider that this has considerably better matchups against steela, volcanion (even without lum), venusaur, and entei. It's not a stellar mon but it's been better than it's been in quite a while: its drop to C+ didn't make much sense.
C+ to C-
Literally just use aromatisse, you lose out on key matchups like fini and in exchange you get a slightly less haxy togekiss matchup, that's an awful deal.
Yea this is about it I'm not going to go into every single lower-tier that I think should rise and fall, that said there's one nom that I feel should be made.
C- to C/C+
Some people have this at D which is just plain wrong: lix's typing is really nice and it has the most bonkers Bpress in the meta. Band can tech a fair number of moves while ID is near impossible to break through. The water/fire weaknesses are a bit annoying but even then most physical fires can't actually kill this. Give this a try and then re-rank it, it really doesn't deserve to be in the same tier as dragalge and torkoal.
A+ to AThis mon is good and pretty unpredictable especially if you consider zen, but it also just really struggles from top mons (steela, gross, ferro) running sets that cheese it, entei being a super good hard counter doesn't help matters either, and in general this just tends to lose to the items custap and scarf which makes it pretty easy to slap an answer onto a seemingly vulnerable team (like ppl went into tours running custap goodra, how do you ever dare to click gdarm in that environment). Super awkward to build with too in my experience.
A+ to S-This mon is absolutely amazing, it pairs well with nearly every dragon, can run a ton of different sets, techs would-be counters like smack down landoT, cresselia and even magnezone if it really wants to, overall just a great pokemon and a cut above A+.
A to A-Being forced to build with necro for the CLC just made me feel this mon is incredibly overrated. All of its sets lose to a hilarious number of top tiers: stall is probably the only one with a decent array of things it beats and stall loses to every single trick/taunt user out there. Overall kind of reminds me of kyurem, but without the bit where kyurem hard counters one of the top 3 mons in the meta and has a speed stat that you don't feel bad for investing in. I did talk to murman about it and he showed some interesting sets (fast sub toxic is wild but can probably cheese out some wins), but even so I just don't think this should be in A. Frankly Lele just seems like a better psychic type overall, so even if you keep this where it is at least vote that higher.
B+ to B/B+?Really unsure about this one, but I feel like goodra isn't necessarily great anymore in the current meta. FDS tends to 2-0 (if not 3-0) this, as all the good dragons and steels win, and most fairies give it a rough time too (can't count how often i've lost goodra-fini bc of a stray moonblast drop). At the same time, this seems like a quirky answer to FDS beaters like bulu and heatran, so maybe it should stay where it is: would love to get some discussion going on this mon as it's been pretty quiet lately.
B+ to BSeriously, why is this in B+? Its main draw is being a dragon that beats sylveon, but sylveon has been dropping in power and it's hard to exploit from a teambuilding perspective (few two-mon cores beat all fairies except sylv). It doesn't seem all that cheeseable on paper, but in practice mons can pull out a lot of random stuff to beat it (air slash for steela, psychic for gross, etc). Also just felt really underwhelming when I first tried it.
B+ to BPretty sure this is one of those mons that everyone just kinda forgot to rank lower when the meta shifted. Gene is gone, there's better electrics, and while flying coverage is cute 70% accuracy is not. Just a weird mon that doesn't feel like it should be in B+.
B to B+Not quite as great against FDS as the typing would have you believe but still able to 2-0 most of those teams. Fast taunt is nice against the cheesy mid-speed mons that've been popping up, honestly just has a lot of options to explore (balloon, custap, ID press?). Scarf is really fun too and firmly establishes a niche as a fast steel-type drago counter.
B- to CYes this mon is kinda cool on paper but in practice it's hell to build with and doesn't cover enough. Honestly just use landoT.
B- to B/B+I know crits suck but this is genuinely good vs the meta now. Drago, fini, and steela are all some of the best mons right now and are frequently used together, and this annihilates all of them with zero hax involved. Fast taunt is really nice as well. If you really want to you can even explore options like Brave Bird and Charge to beat a few more things while keeping its great core matchups.
B- to BSame story as koko: it's a fairy that doesn't lose to the things that fairies are supposed to lose to, and unlike bulu you can cover up your fire/steel weakness pretty easily. Nice top tier matchups against fini drago and zyg (arguably the top 3 and infamous for sharing few counters), has some unexplored potential for sets like encore (nice vs setup + multihit), max spd lefties (good sylveon matchup) or even cotton guard (beats glastrier iirc).
C+ to B-Look, I know it's Worse Aggron and that aggron itself isn't great anymore, but consider that this has considerably better matchups against steela, volcanion (even without lum), venusaur, and entei. It's not a stellar mon but it's been better than it's been in quite a while: its drop to C+ didn't make much sense.
C+ to C-Literally just use aromatisse, you lose out on key matchups like fini and in exchange you get a slightly less haxy togekiss matchup, that's an awful deal.
Yea this is about it I'm not going to go into every single lower-tier that I think should rise and fall, that said there's one nom that I feel should be made.
C- to C/C+Some people have this at D which is just plain wrong: lix's typing is really nice and it has the most bonkers Bpress in the meta. Band can tech a fair number of moves while ID is near impossible to break through. The water/fire weaknesses are a bit annoying but even then most physical fires can't actually kill this. Give this a try and then re-rank it, it really doesn't deserve to be in the same tier as dragalge and torkoal.
kyurem b+ -> b (possibly lower)
already rambled on this:
take for example the assault vest set. while before, it used to cheese tapu fini, now it can just lose to it as a fellow assault vest user or even drop to specs with rolls favorable for fini
its only saving grace is its offensive presence but scarf deals laughable damage:
and specs doesnt have the coverage that better dragons do (seriously, it gets 0 fire/water/grass/electric moves, what kind of dragon is this) while also having pretty mediocre speed all things considered
this pokemon truly fell off from the bane of dfs to always being a 0-3 pick into it lmao
in summary this mon performs about as well as it looks
and it looks like a mistake
necrozma: a -> b+
this mon fell off
you know it
i know it
we all know it
specs is exploitable as fuck because it wants 4 different spreads for its (lack of) core mus
stall isnt even good because it has no responses to taunt and is often slower than the mons it wants to stall out so it does hilarious shit like losing to band darm: e: this isnt true disregard this i forgot sitrus is an item
and, as stated earlier, its so reliant on its different spreads to deal with a few matchups (such as fast specs beating fini while all other specs sets just bend over for id sitrus/av) yet its inability to tech for its core losing mus makes it extremely awkward to build around. its not a good core mon, but its also not a good glue because of its unreliability
necrozma feels like its desire to be versatile far outpaces what it can actually do. most matchups are lost based on speed (or, in specs' case, custap). theres also the fact that it isnt able to adapt to the increasing amount of av users in the metagame, making its signature move unremarkable as far as damage goes 90% of the time
its just not as threatening on preview as it should be for its rank - compare it to another a rank mon, dragapult. dragapult is legitimately threatening on preview because its sets all have wildly different mus, being able to be built around some losing matchups such as other dragons. necrozma just doesnt have the liberty because it tries to be versatile but all of the good sets just end up being centered around damage and its damage is extremely one dimensional
"but specs does so much damage!" yeah? thats nice
there are too many ways to avoid a prismatic laser for it to be relevant (endure, sub, immunity in a few cases (lol urshifu and raboot) and necrozmas other coverage isnt baaaad, its just not good either. necrozma, in my opinion, defines what i would call a "middling" pokemon in the metagame
e: wrote more and fixed a factual error
already rambled on this:
take for example the assault vest set. while before, it used to cheese tapu fini, now it can just lose to it as a fellow assault vest user or even drop to specs with rolls favorable for fini
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyurem: 194-230 (46 - 54.6%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO - this is even discounting the fact that fini can go modest lol
136 SpA Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Fini: 114-134 (33.4 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
136 SpA Kyurem Glaciate vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Fini: 26-31 (7.6 - 9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
youre always forced to stay at +1 speed over fini, but youre outdamaged by 2x natures madness into moonblast:
Tapu Fini Nature's Madness vs. 120 HP Kyurem: 210-210 (49.8 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Tapu Fini Nature's Madness vs. 120 HP Kyurem: 105-105 (24.9 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
84 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyurem: 110-132 (26.1 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and it can always icy wind to maintain speed advantage
136 SpA Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Fini: 114-134 (33.4 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
136 SpA Kyurem Glaciate vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Fini: 26-31 (7.6 - 9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
youre always forced to stay at +1 speed over fini, but youre outdamaged by 2x natures madness into moonblast:
Tapu Fini Nature's Madness vs. 120 HP Kyurem: 210-210 (49.8 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Tapu Fini Nature's Madness vs. 120 HP Kyurem: 105-105 (24.9 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
84 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyurem: 110-132 (26.1 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and it can always icy wind to maintain speed advantage
its only saving grace is its offensive presence but scarf deals laughable damage:
252 SpA Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 188 SpD Assault Vest Regidrago: 368-434 (68 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
116 SpA Dragon's Maw Regidrago Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 510-602 (130.4 - 153.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
i shouldnt need to explain how this mon loses to every mon above a-
116 SpA Dragon's Maw Regidrago Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 510-602 (130.4 - 153.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
i shouldnt need to explain how this mon loses to every mon above a-
and specs doesnt have the coverage that better dragons do (seriously, it gets 0 fire/water/grass/electric moves, what kind of dragon is this) while also having pretty mediocre speed all things considered
this pokemon truly fell off from the bane of dfs to always being a 0-3 pick into it lmao
in summary this mon performs about as well as it looks
and it looks like a mistake
necrozma: a -> b+
this mon fell off
you know it
i know it
we all know it
specs is exploitable as fuck because it wants 4 different spreads for its (lack of) core mus
252+ Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Necrozma: 280-330 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. +2 252 HP / 164+ Def Necrozma: 141-166 (35.4 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. +2 252 HP / 164+ Def Necrozma: 141-166 (35.4 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
and, as stated earlier, its so reliant on its different spreads to deal with a few matchups (such as fast specs beating fini while all other specs sets just bend over for id sitrus/av) yet its inability to tech for its core losing mus makes it extremely awkward to build around. its not a good core mon, but its also not a good glue because of its unreliability
necrozma feels like its desire to be versatile far outpaces what it can actually do. most matchups are lost based on speed (or, in specs' case, custap). theres also the fact that it isnt able to adapt to the increasing amount of av users in the metagame, making its signature move unremarkable as far as damage goes 90% of the time
its just not as threatening on preview as it should be for its rank - compare it to another a rank mon, dragapult. dragapult is legitimately threatening on preview because its sets all have wildly different mus, being able to be built around some losing matchups such as other dragons. necrozma just doesnt have the liberty because it tries to be versatile but all of the good sets just end up being centered around damage and its damage is extremely one dimensional
"but specs does so much damage!" yeah? thats nice
there are too many ways to avoid a prismatic laser for it to be relevant (endure, sub, immunity in a few cases (lol urshifu and raboot) and necrozmas other coverage isnt baaaad, its just not good either. necrozma, in my opinion, defines what i would call a "middling" pokemon in the metagame
e: wrote more and fixed a factual error
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This is half a nom and half a VR philosophy post.
I'll start with the latter first. Basically, I don't think the VR is really taking into account accuracy of moves when ranking Pokemon. This may seem a bit strange, but I think it will make sense to people who read this through.
Any Pokemon that relies on a move with imperfect accuracy is going to never have 100% win rates against Pokemon that it needs to use that move against. I think we all know this to some degree, but I also think we sort of view a Pokemon's viability on how good they are when they hit the move, which I think is not a realistic way of viewing that Pokemon.
This post will mainly focus on Spectrier, but is also applicable to Pokemon like Glastrier, Darmanitan-G, Porygon-Z, Naganadel, or any other Pokemon that critically relies on a move with 90% or less accuracy.
Spectrier, for the most part, will have to use Will-O-Wisp on several of its matchups, mostly physical Pokemon like Urshifu-R, WP Metagross, etc. This inherently means that, against a large amount of the cast, you're effectively only going to KO the Pokemon 85% of the time. Putting that into perspective: in, say, 4 games, you only have a 52% chance to hit all 4 Will-O-Wisps, which is horrendous when compared to the 100% chance to hit 4 100% accuracy moves, and naturally the success rate only decreases every single game. By 10 games, you're at 20% odds of hitting every Will-O-Wisp. I know this all seems a bit obvious, but then whey is Spectrier being ranked next to other Pokemon with a similarly wide coverage of the metagame who only have more accurate moves to choose from?
I think we already have a subconscious idea that Pokemon with better accuracy moves are more reliable, with Tapu Fini and Zygarde being ranked S and having perfectly accurate primary STAB options (along with, of course, everything else they have at their disposal). But, regardless, I don't think we actively acknowledge that move accuracy matters tremendously on the consistency of a Pokemon, which I think should be heavily reflected in their VR ranking. Like, if you were doing a calc, and the Pokemon you wanted to use had a max roll of OHKOing a target only 85% of the time, you just wouldn't use it, you'd find a better Pokemon to run. Consistency is everything in 1v1.
I've run Spectrier since it was available, and have been spamming it with new teams for the last 2 weeks. Its my favorite Pokemon in this gen conceptually, because of its excellent utility and power, but its main set just will never, ever have the same consistency of other Pokemon. Therefore, I would recommend dropping Spectrier from A- to B+.
I've also noticed this consistency problem with the aforementioned Pokemon, but they also for the most part have other 100% accurate powerful moves they can utilize. Spectrier's main set will require Wisp for half or so of their matchups, which is why I think its the only Pokemon that deserves a drop right now, but I think for future rankings viability should always incorporate accuracy of main moves, in case that is the factor that pushes a Pokemon down a ranking.
I didn't really think about this when I was a VR council member, but I think it needs to be acknowledged in some way. We definitely do that with Pokemon like Moltres-G, where Hurricane accuracy is too awful to ignore, but I think with moves that have only a 10% or 15% chance to miss, the issue of consistency there has been pushed under the rug, when it really should be in the forefront when considering viability.
edit: this entire post becomes pointless if someone can figure out goated Wide Lens Spectrier
I'll start with the latter first. Basically, I don't think the VR is really taking into account accuracy of moves when ranking Pokemon. This may seem a bit strange, but I think it will make sense to people who read this through.
Any Pokemon that relies on a move with imperfect accuracy is going to never have 100% win rates against Pokemon that it needs to use that move against. I think we all know this to some degree, but I also think we sort of view a Pokemon's viability on how good they are when they hit the move, which I think is not a realistic way of viewing that Pokemon.
This post will mainly focus on Spectrier, but is also applicable to Pokemon like Glastrier, Darmanitan-G, Porygon-Z, Naganadel, or any other Pokemon that critically relies on a move with 90% or less accuracy.
Spectrier, for the most part, will have to use Will-O-Wisp on several of its matchups, mostly physical Pokemon like Urshifu-R, WP Metagross, etc. This inherently means that, against a large amount of the cast, you're effectively only going to KO the Pokemon 85% of the time. Putting that into perspective: in, say, 4 games, you only have a 52% chance to hit all 4 Will-O-Wisps, which is horrendous when compared to the 100% chance to hit 4 100% accuracy moves, and naturally the success rate only decreases every single game. By 10 games, you're at 20% odds of hitting every Will-O-Wisp. I know this all seems a bit obvious, but then whey is Spectrier being ranked next to other Pokemon with a similarly wide coverage of the metagame who only have more accurate moves to choose from?
I think we already have a subconscious idea that Pokemon with better accuracy moves are more reliable, with Tapu Fini and Zygarde being ranked S and having perfectly accurate primary STAB options (along with, of course, everything else they have at their disposal). But, regardless, I don't think we actively acknowledge that move accuracy matters tremendously on the consistency of a Pokemon, which I think should be heavily reflected in their VR ranking. Like, if you were doing a calc, and the Pokemon you wanted to use had a max roll of OHKOing a target only 85% of the time, you just wouldn't use it, you'd find a better Pokemon to run. Consistency is everything in 1v1.
I've run Spectrier since it was available, and have been spamming it with new teams for the last 2 weeks. Its my favorite Pokemon in this gen conceptually, because of its excellent utility and power, but its main set just will never, ever have the same consistency of other Pokemon. Therefore, I would recommend dropping Spectrier from A- to B+.
I've also noticed this consistency problem with the aforementioned Pokemon, but they also for the most part have other 100% accurate powerful moves they can utilize. Spectrier's main set will require Wisp for half or so of their matchups, which is why I think its the only Pokemon that deserves a drop right now, but I think for future rankings viability should always incorporate accuracy of main moves, in case that is the factor that pushes a Pokemon down a ranking.
I didn't really think about this when I was a VR council member, but I think it needs to be acknowledged in some way. We definitely do that with Pokemon like Moltres-G, where Hurricane accuracy is too awful to ignore, but I think with moves that have only a 10% or 15% chance to miss, the issue of consistency there has been pushed under the rug, when it really should be in the forefront when considering viability.
edit: this entire post becomes pointless if someone can figure out goated Wide Lens Spectrier
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Just wanted to give some thoughts, especially on some of the lower ranked mons that rarely get discussed (perhaps with reason).
:aroma: A -> A+ (at least)
This mon is incredigood, huge threat to choice and setup, and can cover so much depending on what stat it chooses to max. With the advent of draining kiss helping secure a lot of matchups where moonblast is shaky and very good bulk it can afford to fully invest in, it is incredibly threatening at preview and in the builder. Just because a mon is hard to use does not mean it should be valued down.
B- -> B
Far from invulnerable but a lot of times just needs to survive one turn or fish for a miss to win. Fairly solid top tier matchups, especially with the right resist berry.
C+ -> D
beats like 2 mons A rank and above. Loses to fairies as a fire type and loses to rock types as a fighting type.
C - > D
Everything that bulks naga by extension bulks latios
C - C+
no intimidate but the speed gives it the edge in some mus and sludge wave is nice for bulu and rilla + has a positive ferro mu. Can also run smack down for Celesteela like its Therian twin.
C -> B-
Beats fini as a fire type + gets encore.
C -> B-
budget aroma but positive rilla/bulu matchup is nice.
C -> C+/B-
fast zapdos that has a good pz/opposing pressure stall mu.
C- -> D
cool coverage but gets ohkoed before it can use it.
C- -> UR
Has cool coverage but it isn't useful.
C- to UR
Far too frail.
C - to UR
I don't see a world where I would use this over bulu or rilla.
D to UR
It's flying type hinders more than helps it. While roost is nice, regice outclasses it with amnesia and clear body.
D -> UR
I hate to say this but I have looked into it and buzzwole is basically better. A strong giga impact isn't enough :(
D -> UR
loses to fires as a ground and loses to grasses and some ice types as a steel.
D -> UR
celesteela and corviknight overshadow it.
D -> UR
I love stak but its typing is terribad and ferro is 99% of the time better.
D -> UR
zapdos and raikou outclass it and outbulk it.
D -> UR
There are much better fires and stall mons.
D -> UR
surely it is completely outclassed by Roserade.
:aroma: A -> A+ (at least)
This mon is incredigood, huge threat to choice and setup, and can cover so much depending on what stat it chooses to max. With the advent of draining kiss helping secure a lot of matchups where moonblast is shaky and very good bulk it can afford to fully invest in, it is incredibly threatening at preview and in the builder. Just because a mon is hard to use does not mean it should be valued down.
B- -> BFar from invulnerable but a lot of times just needs to survive one turn or fish for a miss to win. Fairly solid top tier matchups, especially with the right resist berry.
C+ -> Dbeats like 2 mons A rank and above. Loses to fairies as a fire type and loses to rock types as a fighting type.
C - > DEverything that bulks naga by extension bulks latios
C - C+ no intimidate but the speed gives it the edge in some mus and sludge wave is nice for bulu and rilla + has a positive ferro mu. Can also run smack down for Celesteela like its Therian twin.
C -> B-Beats fini as a fire type + gets encore.
C -> B-budget aroma but positive rilla/bulu matchup is nice.
C -> C+/B-fast zapdos that has a good pz/opposing pressure stall mu.
C- -> Dcool coverage but gets ohkoed before it can use it.
C- -> URHas cool coverage but it isn't useful.
C- to URFar too frail.
C - to URI don't see a world where I would use this over bulu or rilla.
D to URIt's flying type hinders more than helps it. While roost is nice, regice outclasses it with amnesia and clear body.
D -> URI hate to say this but I have looked into it and buzzwole is basically better. A strong giga impact isn't enough :(
D -> URloses to fires as a ground and loses to grasses and some ice types as a steel.
D -> URcelesteela and corviknight overshadow it.
D -> URI love stak but its typing is terribad and ferro is 99% of the time better.
D -> URzapdos and raikou outclass it and outbulk it.
D -> URThere are much better fires and stall mons.
D -> URsurely it is completely outclassed by Roserade.
Blastoise UR-->C
Blastoise @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 88 HP / 76 Def / 234 SpA / 108 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Hydro Cannon
- Ice Beam
- Substitute
I have no idea how this mon isn't at least ranked. Amazing bulk stats (79/100/105), and that with shell smash can really let you set up. Even without speed, you already outspeed a lot after ssmash. This can beat most sets from amazing mons, like Zygarde (non-av), Jolly band urshifu, and other mons that are high up there and really good. It also is good overall, since as long as it doesn't really die, it can set up shell smash and (usually) outspeed. It may have bad coverage, but this is 1v1. you have three mons. Hydro cannon is very nice for big damage, especially when you are in torrent range (which is why sub is there). Ice beam is to beat dragons, like Zygarde, Salamance, and sometimes Haxorus.
Anyway, calcs!! (these are only some since im lazy lol)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 88 HP / 108+ SpD Blastoise: 271-319 (84.4 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 88 HP / 76 Def Blastoise on a critical hit: 271-321 (84.4 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 234 SpA Life Orb Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 208 HP / 152 SpD Zygarde: 504-598 (123.2 - 146.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (+1 because skitter)
kinda short but just ok yes its a pro turtle
Blastoise @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 88 HP / 76 Def / 234 SpA / 108 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Hydro Cannon
- Ice Beam
- Substitute
I have no idea how this mon isn't at least ranked. Amazing bulk stats (79/100/105), and that with shell smash can really let you set up. Even without speed, you already outspeed a lot after ssmash. This can beat most sets from amazing mons, like Zygarde (non-av), Jolly band urshifu, and other mons that are high up there and really good. It also is good overall, since as long as it doesn't really die, it can set up shell smash and (usually) outspeed. It may have bad coverage, but this is 1v1. you have three mons. Hydro cannon is very nice for big damage, especially when you are in torrent range (which is why sub is there). Ice beam is to beat dragons, like Zygarde, Salamance, and sometimes Haxorus.
Anyway, calcs!! (these are only some since im lazy lol)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 88 HP / 108+ SpD Blastoise: 271-319 (84.4 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 88 HP / 76 Def Blastoise on a critical hit: 271-321 (84.4 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 234 SpA Life Orb Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 208 HP / 152 SpD Zygarde: 504-598 (123.2 - 146.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (+1 because skitter)
kinda short but just ok yes its a pro turtle
I strongly disagree with saying that blastoise should be put in C rank. You're post also mentions some strange things.
"This can beat most sets from amazing mons, like Zygarde (non-av), Jolly band urshifu, and other mons that are high up there and really good."
Jolly band? I guess you could run jolly, but there's not a lot of important things to outspeed, and it's usually better using adamant. This makes it have a 56.3% chance to OHKO, not including the chance of hydro cannon missing. You also say that it beats most sets from good mons, but from the calcs I did, it's the opposite.
Tapu fini: 0/6 sets won
Celesteela: 2/4 sets won
Regidrago: 3/7 sets won (I think)
Sylveon: 1.5/3 sets won
Togekiss: 0/2 sets won
Zeraora: 0/4 sets won
Aromatisse: 0/2 sets won
Darm-g: 1/3 sets won (maybe)
Pult: 1/4 sets won (perhaps)
Metagross: 3.5/5 sets won
Necrozma: 0/5 sets won
Tapu lele: 0/5 sets won
Urshifu: has 2 50-50 sets (av and band) so basically 1/6 sets won
Urshifu rapid: 0/3 sets won
Results: 13/59 sets won
This was S to A rank. If I messed up some of the calcs please tell me.
Celesteela: 2/4 sets won
Regidrago: 3/7 sets won (I think)
Sylveon: 1.5/3 sets won
Togekiss: 0/2 sets won
Zeraora: 0/4 sets won
Aromatisse: 0/2 sets won
Darm-g: 1/3 sets won (maybe)
Pult: 1/4 sets won (perhaps)
Metagross: 3.5/5 sets won
Necrozma: 0/5 sets won
Tapu lele: 0/5 sets won
Urshifu: has 2 50-50 sets (av and band) so basically 1/6 sets won
Urshifu rapid: 0/3 sets won
Results: 13/59 sets won
This was S to A rank. If I messed up some of the calcs please tell me.
While this statement is true, because of a bad moveset, this mon is incredibly predictable. Most mons have good coverage to mix their set, which adds flexibility.
Everything else I agree with, and this mon has a lot of potential. However, This mon should be in D rank, since C is way too high for this mon. (Also sorry for writing this I'm just mad that somehow zygarde got banned.)