Metagame BDSP RU (RU Tier Shifts @Post #128)

[RextheNoname]

Zapdos
No coverage has made zapdos rather horrendous in every higher tier. It's so bad that you need to use U-turn just to be able to switch out on incoming grounds. However in RU Zapdos has a far easier time being fit on to teams with the low power level. Physically Defensive sets with Discharge are fantastic as always, making your opponent hold their breath every time they get hit. It works especially well with how many fighting types are in the tier.

Claydol
I've seen this thing talked about surprisingly little. For starters this thing gets access to teleport, which is far too uncommon in BDSP. On top of that you get rocks and rapid spin support. It's a great addition on Offense and balance and makes getting strong attackers like tauros in easy. If you haven't used this guy yet I'd strongly recommend it.

Chansey
While Mantine has a far better matchup against sun, I do think Chansey is overall a lot more rewarding on most teams. Chansey offers plenty of support that Mantine doesn't offer. Thunder wave, wish, stealth rocks, and even aromatherapy makes Chansey amazing on nearly every team. Though Mantine is far easier to use but doesn't offer anywhere near the same amount of support. Use either one depending on what your team needs.

Mime
Despite the lackluster fairies we had to pick from Mime isn't bad. Soundproof makes a nice switch in to Exploud, and Fairy typing is just about the only thing that hits Kingdra super effectively. Its stats do leave a little bit to be desired however, as it's not getting far with 90 speed and 100 special attack. I've personally been running Scarf but specs could work as well.

broken crap

Moth is the only one I truly feel like is Broken no matter what. Tinted Lens bug buzz is well, a pain in the butt to play against and can turn around games in an instant.


On the other hand all of these I feel like deserve to be at least considered before being knocked out of RU. Kingdra is strong, but doesn't instantly win any games just by being on the field. Exploud is also strong but it being slow allows for counter play. Sun requires a lot of brain power to play around, however isn't completely broken in my eyes. Each could be justified for a ban, but I do think you could make a case for them sticking around.

 

[Wooper Person]

First of All:

This thing. Been trying it out a lot in RU lately, and it SLAPS hard. It's stab combination is so potent, it's only resisted by itself, the frail Sharpedo, and the rare Poliwrath, meaning you can use a mixed (with Sucker Punch) Nasty Plot set with just it's stabs and be good to go.
For example, one of the biggest Spdef walls, Mantine, isn't a good switchin if Doom is already at +2: +2 252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 173-204 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO. Another amazing calc:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Chansey: 289-341 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Pair this with Spikes which Froslass lays on HO teams and Offense (where Doom shines), and everything gets 2HKOed.
Sucker Punch can make or break games, as Houndoom has a respectable attack stat.

Edit: Thanks to Tone for pointing this out, the best switchin is probably Thick Fat Hariyama, as it resists it's stabs with ease.

The other thing I wanted to discuss is:

Rhyperior is, in my opinion, even more broken than what many claim to be the 3rd most broken mon in RU, Exploud. The damage output of this thing is massive, as it can 6-0 Teams in an instant if you let it get a Rock Polish up (my favorite set by far, RP 3 Attacks). It's coverage hits everything neutrally, and it's ability Solid Rock eases setup againist any Physical Attacker, as even a Scarfed Medicham can't ohko from full health with High Jump Kick. Sadly, while it hits really hard, it's also kind of slow, and while Adamant hits 358 Speed (after Rock Polish), which isn't bad, it's still revenge killed by scarfers.
Few Calcs for reference:
252+ Atk Earth Plate Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 237-280 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rhyperior: 274-324 (73.8 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Rhyperior OHKOes back even without Hazards)

Againist stall, it completely shreds it apart, It OHKOes Mantine, 2HKOes (most of the times) Steelix / the rare Tangela or Gligar (it does 42% to 45%, but Gligar can't 2HKO back) OHKOes Chansey, and Claydol. Sableye's burn can give it trouble, but sets such as Lum SD or Lum Rock Polish overcome this.
Againist offense, it can find Rock Polish or Swords Dance opportunities because of how many Pokémon it forces out. This applies to Balance as well.

Thanks for reading through all of this, <3

 

[TONE]

Another mon I'd like to bring up:

Magmortar @ Life Orb
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 48 Atk / 228 SpA / 232 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Cross Chop

In terms of wallbreakers, Mixed Magmortar is probably my favorite wallbreaker to use in the current metagame. Has the right amount of coverage, solid 125 Special Attack, and a respectable base 83 Speed. While the cons of Magmortar are the Stealth Rock weakness and the lack of swtching into most Pokemon, Magmortar comes with the pro of not having much wanting to switch in on it as well as Vital Spirit being incredibly nice to switch into Venomoth without fear of being put to sleep. Fire Blast + Thunderbolt covers most of the meta by itself, Psychic is nice coverage to have, doing more to Pokemon like Nidoqueen and ensuring Thick Fat Hariyama isn't coming in for free. Psychic also 2HKOes 0 bulk Rhyperior as well. The last move Cross Chop is important as it lets you get past Chansey, which would wall you otherwise. The Speed is for Jolly/Timid base 80s, Attack investment ensures that Chansey is 2HKOed by Cross Chop from full after Leftovers recovery and if Chansey is Sp. Def, well, nice knowing ya, and the rest goes into Special Attack.:

Calcs

228 SpA Life Orb Magmortar Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rhyperior: 198-233 (53.3 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
228 SpA Life Orb Magmortar Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 278-330 (86.3 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (Becomes 93.8% chance to OHKO after a Spike)
228 SpA Life Orb Magmortar Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hariyama: 242-286 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (I know this isn't the actual spread for Hariyama, just did this to show the damage)
48 Atk Life Orb Magmortar Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 374-442 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

There are 2 versions of this team, V1 for current meta, and V2 is for the eventual bans to come, but both accomplish an endgame with SD Absol. Magmortar + Swellow forms a solid offensive tandem with wallbreaking from Magmortar and Speed from Swellow as well as protecting my other physical attackers from status. Torterra + Froslass is the hazard stacking duo with the only real weird thing is my Froslass being bulky as opposed to offensive. Main reason is to provide more staying power against potential spinners like Claydol so Froslass can get up Spikes easier against them. The first team has Hitmonchan, which while it is an unpopular pick, suits me fine as it has a niche of a spinner with recovery with Iron Fist Drain Punch and is the "backup Venomoth check" in case Magmortar gets too weakened. It also isn't OHKOed by Timid Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst from full. If or I guess when Venomoth gets the boot, Hitmonlee can be used in the same vain albeit for more offensive power. Lastly, Absol does Absol things, another breaker, benefits from hazard stack, and Sucker Punch to pick off weakened opponents. Thanks for reading and hope you like the team.

 

[TyCarter]

There is one mon, in particular, I want to highlight that has not been talked about yet.

Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd/4 SpDef
Adamant Nature
-Liquidation/Waterfall
-Protect
-Crunch
-Earthquake

Sharpedo is a great anti-offense mon that can revenge kill and also a very good cleaner in the lategame that can secure a win once it's checks and counters are either signficantly worn down or are taken out and serves as a great win condition. Speed Boost enables it to blitz past mons that may normally outspeed it and it packs enough raw power to KO a lot of mons in the tier and is also immune to prankster which means Sableye who can be an annoying presence in the tier doesn't stop it. Liquidation and Crunch is a solid STAB combination that isn't resisted by much in the tier. Like any sweeper, it appreciates mons such as Zapdos pivoting it onto a mon it does well against. Intimidators like Arcanine and Hitmontop can prove to be an issue and so can flame body users like Moltres stopping it short of its sweep. EQ is for coverage against mons like Kabutops and also handles Ninetales in the sun and beat opposing Sharpedos. Not a lot of things can tank against a Sharpedo that has gotten going.

The other alternative set that Sharpedo can run is a special attacking set since it has a fairly usable SpA.

Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 SpA/252 Spd/4 SpDef
Modest Nature
-Hydro Pump
-Dark Pulse
-Protect
-Ice Beam

This would enable it to ignore the atk drop that Arcanine and Hitmontop give although the latter it still needs to be wary of mach punch. It's not as ideal in RU but it's a decent lure set to bait would be will-o-wisp users looking to ruin Sharpedo's day and ice beam is a nice special option that beats out strength sap users and beats grasses out.

Overall, I've liked using Sharpedo in RU so far.

 

[Pabloaram]

Rhyperior is, in my opinion, even more broken than what many claim to be the 3rd most broken mon in RU, Exploud. The damage output of this thing is massive, as it can 6-0 Teams in an instant if you let it get a Rock Polish up (my favorite set by far, RP 3 Attacks). It's coverage hits everything neutrally, and it's ability Solid Rock eases setup againist any Physical Attacker, as even a Scarfed Medicham can't ohko from full health with High Jump Kick. Sadly, while it hits really hard, it's also kind of slow, and while Adamant hits 358 Speed (after Rock Polish), which isn't bad, it's still revenge killed by scarfers

You are running EdgeQuake + Megahorn no?? Megahorn is great for hitting the two common EdgeQuake resist in the tier: Rapid Spin Claydol and "bulky" Torterra.
Maybe Sword Dance set could work under Web, specially bc Rhyperior sit on Zapdos, he doenst like Mantine but isnt hard to lure and most rapid spinner have trouble breaking trought the ghost in this tier

 

[mark6870]

Let's talk about This Fella.

(Art By Sableye Used Power Gem by TamarinFrog on DeviantArt )
Sableye @ Choice Band
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch / Shadow Sneak
- Focus Punch / Drain Punch
- Trick
A Team utilizing Choice Band Sableye: Gone Fishin' (matchup fishin) (pokepast.es)
I was just mucking about with an abomasnow team i had made on ladder. i was turtling around 1200ish trying out some interesting sets playing against an opponent who was 1420, so i didnt expect to win. There was a weak looking little Sableye that i thought i could easily make quick work of when it hit me like a freight train. The tiny little Sableye that stood up to my towering abominable snowman had just done 70 percent to it with a simple Knock Off.

Most know this.. thing.. for its ability to be the most annoying gremlin creature to ever terrorize the lower tiers of competitive Pokemon. Gemstones litter its small, hunched body like boils. Two large cut crystals stare into your soul, and a gaping grin streaks its face revealing A pokemon in which its stats suggest it dies to a pin pricking it, a gust of wind blowing on it, but never seems to die with its priority healing and will burn not only your pokemon, but your soul as well. This dubious little heathen goes by the name of Sableye.

Sabeleye is known for its unruly defensive sets. However, it's got one new horrid trick up its sleeve that I believe to be a niche diamond in the rough : Choice Band.
Choice Band Sableye can pack a surprisingly strong punch and fits on bulkier balance teams. It's got a very strong surprise factor and even after the opponent realizes the trickery going on, it can still put in work if used wisely. Unlike stronger pokemon such as Ursaring, Absol, or Moltres, Sableye can't muscle through everything. To use this sableye, you have to think like a sableye to use it effectively. You have to treat it like a normal defensive Sableye and then surprise them with an out-of-pocket Sucker Punch or do an unnaturally large amount with Knock Off. What Seperates Sableye from those pokemon (which are albeit more consistent) boils down to three qualities:

The Surprise, the Immunities, and Trick.

The surprise factor has already been talked about; it's hard to elaborate on it further than just "people don't expect an offensive Sableye." However, it's best to treat it like a defensive Sableye as much as possible, but be mindful, as without any defensive investment, Sableye is violently frail. However, despite being so frail, Sableye remains a decent spinblocker, still stopping Hitmontop in its tracks. It can then knock off its item or the pokemon switching in and chunk it / cripple it by removing its item. Finally, Prankster Trick is a mean tatic to fight against setup sweepers. Yes, this does mean Sableye will be much weaker for the rest of the game, but if played correctly it can turn a dangerous wincon such as a Venomoth into fodder. (if you revieve a black sludge upon tricking veno, try tricking it back onto a different mon.)


Overall, i've exhausted all my creative writing skills on this post about an unset, but it's genuinely the most fun I've ever had with a sableye.

Notable Calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 204-240 (63.3 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sableye Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 198-234 (70.4 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 273-322 (97.1 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 120+ Def Mantine: 189-223 (50.6 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sableye Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Machamp: 223-263 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 172 HP / 4 Def Abomasnow: 229-270 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sableye Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Aggron: 224-268 (65.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sableye Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 204-240 (57.6 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 302-356 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 219-258 (68.2 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Wooper Person]

Since RU Alpha is coming to an end, I thought I might leave my thoughts on what every RU player is thinking every day untill February 1st: What's getting banned?

First of all, the ones everyone expects:


Kingdra. Whatever set you run, it's gonna work out. Critdra, DD Critdra, Rain Abusing Kingdra, you name it. This mon singlehandedly forces you to run Chansey, which needs to run Max Spdef just to deal with it, or the completely useless Lapras. This is obviously very unhealthy for the meta, and needs to be banned ASAP.

Now, Venomoth is different slightly to Kingdra, in the way that if it sets up, which IS easier said than done, it outright sweeps team in the Spot. The reasoning? The lack of good walls that can deal with a setup mon, as such, a mon like Chansey can't beat roost Venomoth, as it gets to +6 and 6-0es your opponent faster than you can say "Hitmontop is overrated" ;).

Now, for my own takes:

This... thing. I already made a post about it, so I don't have much to say, but it's definetly worth suspecting after the QBs. It literally has 0 counters (refer to /ds resists ground, resists rock, !weak bug), and all of it's sets are viable, doesn't matter if it's Band, RPolish, SD. So, for these reasons and the ones I mentioned in the post I made before, it deserves a Suspect soon.


Now, hot take, Sharpedo isn't broken. While yes, It's very strong, it's not like Kingdra, who's counters are pretty much useless outside of countering that specific mon. Sharpedo, on the other hand, has good checks and counters that actually do more than just check / counter Sharpedo (looking at you, Lapras). While a suspect would be reasonable, I wouldn't support a ban (for now).


Finally, what I find to be more oppressive than even Kingdra:

First of all, no, I'm not talking about Drought, I'm talking about Ninetales's Flash Fire...
Nah, of course not. Drought, aka Sun is extremely oppresive. It's abusers are way too strong in a meta that barely has any ways to deal with fire types aside from 2 or 3 mons. The big guns:
/ /
I don't think Charizard needs explaining. With how ridiculously good Rotom, Zapdos (U-turn) and Uxie are, Zard takes very little effort to be in the field. And to add to this, Claydol, Zapdos and Mantine are incredible defoggers as well who help Charizard a lot with it's Stealth Rock weakness. Not even the mighty Spdef Chansey can switch in, it's clearly way too good for RU (under Sun that is). The other sun abusers aren't as prominent, but that doesn't mean they are bad.
Exeggutor has spectacular special attack, pair that with a speed tier that is reasonably good under sun, and a spammable 120 BP stab move, this thing is amazing. While Exegg has bad coverage for steels, the only good steels either are neutral to it's stab (Steelix / Bastiodon) or lack good special defense to take hits.
Shiftry has amazing versatility, and good coverage for mixed sets to be usable too. Nothing much else to say about it, it's very good againist stall and offense alike.
Hope you enjoyed my post <3

 

[mark6870]

In light of my funny Banded Sableye posts, i wanted to make something more serious. Some pokemon that i believe to be actually underrated.


Firstly, Mesprit is a fantastic Choice Scarfer imo. In a vaccuum, its an odd middleground between the other lake pixies, where it's not as strong or fast as Azelf, but not bulky like Uxie. However, like the other two, it gets a useful suicide move that sets it apart from them: Healing Wish. Being able to fully heal one of your teamate while also giving them a safe switch (healing wish also activates hazards which is great. Healing wish is only a boltser to its solid offensive stats, bulk, and moves.

Superfluous (Mesprit) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- U-turn
- Healing Wish
Set Details: Psychic is STAB, D-gleam is for dark types, Uturn is for pivoting, and Healing Wish is for your teammates. A big problem with this set are that it is walled by steels.


This segways into the pokemon i want to talk about next, Aggron. Aggron is a superb pokemon that i just dont see talked about much. It's such a good tank that forces many switches with its Head Smash that can be used as opportunities to lay down Stealth Rocks. Its Rock/Steel typing does have its glaring weaknesses but it is chock-full of resistances (most notably hard countering Swellow) and 180 defense is... 180 defense. Its Steel typing, while not being the best typing offensively, gives it good neutral coverage to chunk the tier's fighting types. Earthquake is for steels, of course, but it also gives Aggron a more accurate move against fire types and helps save Head Smash PP. Problems with Aggron are its speed, the fact that it's going to take a ton of chip throughout a game, and possibly get statused. That's why Mesprit is such a good partner for it, not only can it take out many of the fighting types its weak to, is immune to the ground type moves that scare it, AND it can pivot it in with U-turn, but Mesprit can also heal it back up late-game with Healing Wish.

Overkill (Aggron) @ Shuca Berry/Chople Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Head Smash
- Heavy Slam
Set Details: Maximize bulk and attacking power. 8 speed is to beat 84 speed rhyperior, (which i think is one of the main reasons aggron is overlooked btw, it definitely outclasses poor aggron in most areas except immediate power)

 

[TTK]

So last day of RU Alpha (been a very long month) and I'm just here to place a list I believe to be pretty accurate to what mons are going to end up RU by usage. I will not include the possibility of drops from UU for the list (as long as Registeel does not drop) and UU could honestly give anything. I am also going to state if I think a mon might move up to UU but I don't think many fit this criteria anyway but I will mention it.

Green text = Extremely likely (90% - 100%)
Blue text = Likely (50% - 89%)
Red text = Hopeful (<= 50%)

Abomasnow
Absol
Arcanine
Bastiodon
Bibarel
Cacturne
Charizard
Claydol
Electivire
Exploud
Froslass
Gallade
Gastrodon
Golem
Hariyama
Hitmontop
Houndoom
Kingdra
Lapras
Machamp
Mantine
Medicham
Mesprit
Moltres
Mr. Mime
Nidoqueen
Ninetales
Probopass
Raichu
Rhyperior
Rotom
Sableye
Sceptile
Sharpedo (could move up to UU)
Shiftry
Slowking
Smeargle (this one is just weird)
Sneasel
Spiritomb
Steelix
Swellow
Tauros
Torterra
Uxie
Venomoth
Venusaur
Victreebel
Weezing
Xatu
Zangoose
Zapdos

Now I could be wrong about some of these, ladder surprises me very easily but the ones in green expect RU definitely.

 

[mark6870]

Been a really stupidly long month! I'm so glad that we're nearing the end of Alpha! Anyway, I remembered to spoiler tag my post for once, so here we go!

Post!

a defensive core I like

Mantine and Steelix make a really nice spdef/physdef core, which I think will only get stronger as we get to the end of Alpha and the formation of the council for this meta and the (probably!) upcoming quickbans and suspects! Anyways, I think the most challenging matchups for this core are just things just special things that hit the mantine for super effective damage (or just straight up nuke it... looking at you, exploud...) and physical things that can beat up Steelix due to its lack of recovery. For these reasons, I've been using Chansey as a special wall and using physdef Mantine (which also serves as your Sharpedo counter, yay)! With these three mons, the only major problem that I see is something like Rotom because of the combination of Levitate, Nasty Plot, and Ghost/Electric typing. Finding an answer to Rotom is really necessary for this core, as it's the single largest threat. Also, be careful about unexpected Thunderbolts from things like Nidoqueen when trying to switch in Mantine!

Sets Time!

Nothing much to see, things are pretty standard!

Mantine!

Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Defog
- Haze
- Scald

Steelix!

Steelix @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Heavy Slam
- Stone Edge

Chansey!

Chansey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Thunder Wave
- Seismic Toss
- Heal Bell

a final word about where I see the meta going!

As Alpha finally ends, I think this core is set to become better and better as we see quickbans and possibly suspects of mons like Rhyperior (which I think will be the centralising force in the post-alpha metagame if Kingdra, Drought, and Venomoth end up getting quickbanned). I also think that the metagame will stop being so hyperoffense focused after the quickbans, which may make balance more playable, which further makes defensive cores viable!

BYE BYE KINGDRA GOOD RIDDANCE

 

[TONE]

I found the January stats for BDSP RU here: https://www.smogon.com/stats/2022-01/gen8bdspru-1630.txt

The following Pokemon are RU by usage: Kingdra, Nidoqueen, Zapdos, Rhyperior, Venomoth, Arcanine, Xatu, Hitmontop, Claydol, Froslass, Sharpedo, Rotom, Exploud, Sableye, Steelix, Uxie, Swellow, Slowking, Machamp, Vaporeon, Medicham, Kabutops, Mantine, Primeape, Absol, Houndoom, Gastrodon, Vileplume, Torterra, Mesprit, Ninetales, Chansey, Moltres, Hitmonlee, Omastar, Aggron, Venusaur, Gallade, Spiritomb, Jolteon, Cradily. All other Pokemon are NU.

 

[Hpdsd]

Sooo when is BDSP NU going to drop like the days about the end

 

[Garance]

Pretty surprised on the fact Abomasnow/Charizard/Lapras/Tauros/Electivire and Mr.Mime are just not in RU ?? But Kabutops/Primeape/Omastar and Spiritomb in the tier ?

Also, Aerodactyl is an awesome pick, Granbull, finally another fairy mon, with intimidate to remplace Mawile ! About Torkoal, with the sun allowed, ouch, Venusaur/Shiftry/Charizard are going to destroy the tier more than ever.

Currently waiting for a ban of Venomoth/Kingdra and suspects of Sun/Exploud atm.

 

[Eve]

Hi! Let's get out of Alpha. Firstly, let's cover tier shifts:
Gained: Aerodactyl, Granbull, Torkoal
Lost: Arcanine, Froslass, Zapdos

Aerodactyl and Granbull are likely to be fantastic Pokemon in the tier, while Torkoal will suffer from our next announcement. The losses are all massive and likely to significantly change the state of the tier.

Here's our current council! We only have 4 members currently, but we'd love if any solid players invested in the tier would reach out to join:
Eve
Sputnik
TONE
Toy Time King

And with that, we've voted on the big three: Kingdra, Drought, and Venomoth.

They're all getting quickbanned!

Kingdra doesn't really need any explanation, it's just far too strong and difficult to take down and can easily just win games if you don't have specially defensive Lapras or Shedinja. The fact that it has 2 amazing standalone sets with their own levels of variety, those being Agility CritDra and Dragon Dance, doesn't really help, and neither does its ability to also be a threat on Rain, which is only set to get better, because...

Drought is going too. Sun is a very auto-pilot playstyle in this tier and is simply above the power level available. With fantastic sun breakers and sweepers such as Charizard, Venusaur, Shiftry, Victreebel, and Exeggutor available, support like Xatu, and Ninetales itself even being an extremely dangerous threat, it's simply suffocating for the tier. This would only be even worse now that Torkoal has dropped to RU.

Venomoth does what it always does when it's broken- takes a single opening and turns it into a very easy sweep. If you don't have very specific counterplay options like Soundproof Bastiodon, you're going to be vulnerable to it. The council has deemed this, as well as its ability to turn even bad matchups on their head with good Sleep Powder luck, to be undesirable for the development of the tier.

Voting Sheet

We hope you enjoy the (hopefully more balanced) post-Alpha RU metagame!

 

[jns0808]

As much as I dislike it this was very necessary, good bans.

 

[Garance]

while Torkoal will suffer from our next announcement

Honestly, yes and no, that's still a spinner with Yawn, Lava Plume, Stealth Rocks, I think it can stay in the tier and be a pretty good option too.

Also, really appreciate the quickban of Venomoth and Kingdra

 

[okispokis]

We won: Aerodactyl, Granbull, Torkoal
We lost: Arcanine, Froslass, Kingdra, Venomoth, Zapdos, Drought

Here's a few predictions for how shifts may affect the tier:

Winners

The loss of Drought, Zapdos and Arcanine are all huge for Sharpedo, as RU lost a weather weakening its Water STAB, the sole bulky Electric and Shark's most reliable revenge killer. I was on the fence about Sharpedo before, but these losses make it very scary to face unless you have a) bulky water/water immunity or b) priority user, though most cannot freely switch in. But not just any mon will do: for the former, you need to have reliable recovery or resist Dark STAB, and if you go the latter- oh yeah, Shark resists most common priority and blanks Fake Out with Protect. Before factoring in the gimmicks, your options with those criteria are:
A): PD Mantine, PD Vaporeon, PD Gastrodon, Poliwrath, Toxicroak
B): Hitmontop, Hitmonlee, QA Swellow, QA Zangoose, Linoone, Toxicroak

Not the worst list of checks, but bar Croak and some Top builds none of the priority users really take hits well in the event Shark predicts and hits them on the switch. Croak resists Dark and blanks Water and can then revenge with Vacuum Wave, but it drops to potential EQ. That said, Intimidate Granbull can effectively pressure physical Shark, so we may see Shark use special sets more in response, which means more Ice Beam and is why I don't count Grass types as good Shark answers. The recent departures make Shark more oppressive imo, making it more likely we might see a suspect.


With Zapdos gone, Rotom and Raichu are now the only truly good Electric types (sorry, I'm not using something that flops against Ground types even worse than Zapdos did). Rotom still packs a really good STAB combo and three immunities, making it a very good Choice user; Raichu sets itself apart by directly threatening Ground types bar Torterra with coverage and using its terrific Speed tier to get off plot.


The loss of Fross means there is a new opening for a dominant Spikes Setter, and of the candidates I feel Omastar and Cacturne are in the best position to take that title. Omastar is the new best setter for HO thanks to Weak Armor, allowing it to get multiple layers, and it also has access to Rocks, Toxic Spikes, Scald and the still rare Knock Off, which allows Omastar to get a lot of early game utility as a suicide lead; it can even go more offensive with Ice Beam. Cacturne isn't as good, but it packs several advantages as a spiker, namely STAB priority and two immunities, the latter of which actually gives it some use outside of the lead slot.


Hazard removal was not too good in the Alpha days, both because of the HO nature of early metas and the presence of one particular mon: Sableye. Sableye can shut down any remover with its Prankster antics and Ghost typing besides the niche Skuntank, now niche Shiftry and the Knock-weak Xatu, and you'd think it'd be better since the strongest Defogger just left. Enter Granbull; yes, Granbull doesn't appreciate burn + Taunt, but it can potentially overcome these with Heal Bell or RestTalk, with Sable struggling to make much progress against RestTalk without risking a healthy Play Rough as it Taunts; wake up turn is especially dangerous for Sable.

Xatu's Magic Bounce can further alleviate any Sable issue that Granbull may face, its Psychic STAB also complemented Granbull's offenses. Granbull will likely be at least decently huge, and that dip for Sableye along with the meta calming down leads me to believe that many removers will actually have an easier time, especially since several spinners also complement Granbull offensively; Claydol gets around physical walls and Poisons with its Plot set, while Top or Lee can pick off frailer offensive threats that can overwhelm Bull due to its low Speed. May not be meta defining, but I do believe these two factors will give at least a slight indirect buff.


Despite an EQ weakness, Toxicroak is still probably one of the best checks to titan Sharpedo between Dark resist and Dry Skin; Croak is honestly a good mon in its own right, the only Fighting type that can viably run a specially offensive set, which along with Poison STAB allow it a favorable matchup vs Granbull. With the meta calmed down, I think more players will start to catch onto its advantages.

Losers

Lumping these two together as Lapras and Bastiodon both face a similar issue; they were mainly used because they were really good at countering one specific mon each, and now those mons are gone. Lapras' lack of good recovery and Bastio not providing much anymore besides a Boomburst sponge (which Mime does better since isn't weak to always present Focus Blast and can directly threaten Exploud with its own Blast) mean both are mostly outclassed by other options.


While Granbull's introduction will probably cause issues for Sableye (as explained above), the gremlin does have the tools it needs to persist; Spiritomb has it a bit harder. RestTalk Granbull is extremely threatening to the current Tomb set, as it needs quite a few boosts before Dark Pulse can really break Bull while Bull naturally speed creeps and hits it SE. This may pressure Tomb into slotting Hex in to reliably threaten Bull, which forces some important sacrifice in return; Tomb may have to change up its strategy to survive or become more reliant on teammates.


No Sun? Bad news for Ninetales and the various Chloro sweepers it supported. Without sun, Ninetales struggles to compete with the immediate power of Moltres and Magmortar. Of the Chloro sweepers, none of them have any real concrete niche, or are at least largely outclassed in any role they could take.

Others (On the Fence)

Swellow is a very strong breaker, and it likes the indirect buff to hazard removal and losing some of its most annoying answers. Granbull is an annoyance, but it's another drop that may have Swellow a bit worried: Aerodactyl. Aerodactyl has lost several key tools, but it still has access to decent Atk, good speed and STAB Stone Edge with EQ- which means that it outpaces Swellow and resists all of its attacks, even if it's not unbreakable. Swellow basically gets forced out anytime Aero hits the field, and with EdgeQuake having to hard-switch can be a bit of an issue for whichever teammate comes in. Swellow gains some benefits from the shift, but also gets a deadly new adversary.


Just to recap, Sableye takes a small hit from having another outright good Fairy but should still be perfectly viable.


Granbull provides a very slight buff to Primeape over other Fighting types thanks to Defiant boosting Ape should it get Intimidated. Granted, Ape still doesn't break Bull to easily, but this does pack implications for the late game, as that Atk boost can be enough to pick off Bull after it's been weakened and then force the opponent to have something that takes a +1 hit. Small, but it is a perk.


Vileplume loves almost all the new developments- no more Drought takes away its biggest issue as a defensive mon while also rendering the other Grass/Poisons largely unviable, preys on Granbull and the bulky Waters that want to handle Sharpedo and losing Arcanine means one of its worst physical matchups is out of the picture. It does still struggle with some key offensive mons, though, namely special Sharpedo, Swellow and Medicham, giving it enough issues as a wall that I'm not sure how much it really won.

 

[Pabloaram]

With Zapdos gone, Rotom and Raichu are now the only truly good Electric types (sorry, I'm not using something that flops against Ground types even worse than Zapdos did). Rotom still packs a really good STAB combo and three immunities, making it a very good Choice user; Raichu sets itself apart by directly threatening Ground types bar Torterra with coverage and using its terrific Speed tier to get off plot.

One mon i think i fill you miss was Manectric

Having Overheat/Flametrower as coverage give him a niche as a electric type that hurt grass type switching specially strong against team that use Torterra as his electric inmunity.
Plus give the team a electric innmunity to dether other electric and switcheroo in case a hard wall appears.
Of course isn't has good as this two but can work great in diferent matchups
Please dont use Jolteon....

 

[ExiDudi]

One mon i think i fill you miss was Manectric

Having Overheat/Flametrower as coverage give him a niche as a electric type that hurt grass type switching specially strong against team that use Torterra as his electric inmunity.
Plus give the team a electric innmunity to dether other electric and switcheroo in case a hard wall appears.
Of course isn't has good as this two but can work great in diferent matchups
Please dont use Jolteon....

I actually think electivire is decent too, about as good as manectric. It's faster than rotom and hits many usual electric switch ins. Torterra fears ice punch, manectric and Raichu can't really hurt it and get destroyed by EQ. It can't hurt grasses but the only good ones are abomasnow and cacturne ( Edit: I just noticed how stupid I am and that it can just run ice punch for those, hammer arm hits harder and aboma would still be neutral but yeah, no need to drop Volt Switch tbh) , and if you are crazy and drop Volt switch for hammer arm those can't check it too. Imo lorb is a better item than band for it because any one move is easily walled and what it gives up in utility it gains in power and coverage ( though Raichu is better and can run more sets). It also can switch into all the other electric types at least twice. But don't use jolteon.

 

[Pabloaram]

Also scarf switcheroo is also a really interesting strategy that can really annoy mons like Ursaring and Zangoose by stealing their orbs. I really liked Manectric when I used it for the last couple of days!

If they alredy have guts activated you are basically giving them +1 speed. The orb doenst give them the damage, the status give it. And you give Maenctric a free toxic/burn

 

[Sugarbear]

I've been playing some matches lately, here are my thoughts on some of the Pokemon.

The Good

Great Attack, solid bulk, good movepool and it's very versatile too. Bulky hazard setter, fast sweeper, bulky sweeper, physically defensive, specially defensive, even Choice Band, it can do just about anything you want and it will do it well. Just about every team style can make room for Torterra. It is hindered by its low Speed and being a Grass type that doesn't resist Grass and Water does hurt it, but despite these flaws I still consider Torterra one of the best Pokemon in BDSP RU.

Sets

One of the best late game cleaners in the tier. Speed Boost lets it outrun everything, and with high attacking stats and near perfect neutral coverage with its STABs it hits everything hard. The ability to run a physical and special set make it very hard to check until you know what you're facing, and even then it can run stuff like Taunt and Destiny Bond to screw over its checks. On the downside though it is frail as hell and brings virtually no defensive synergy to your team.

Sets

Back in BW this was the face of RU, and these days it's still a very solid Pokemon. Slack Off + Regenerator lets it stick around for a long time, while a Fighting resistance lets it check Machamp without being deathly afraid of Stone Edge. Respectable base SpA and a wide movepool means that unlike fellow bulky Waters Gastrodon and Mantine it can go on the offensive if it wants to, making it much harder to check than them. As its name implies it's still incredibly slow, so you will nearly always be going last. Its Psychic typing also gives it weaknesses to common Dark and Ghost moves, as well as U-turn.

Sets

You all know what this thing does - click Boomburst, watch stuff drop. Mantine is cleanly 2HKOed, 252/252 + Slowking is most of the time and even Chansey can be 2HKOed after Stealth Rock. Even Normal resists won't save you as Rhyperior drops to Surf, Steel types drop to Fire Blast and Aggron drops to Focus Blast. And of course Scrappy means Ghost types are just victims - in fact, they often give it free turns to fire off attacks. Basically if this thing gets in safely, something's going to die. This thing is one of the best wallbreakers in the tier in my opinion. It is let down by average bulk and no resistances though, so it doesn't bring any defensive synergy to your team.

Honourable mentions

The Bad

That 130 base Speed might look enticing, but that's pretty much all Jolteon has going for it. It lets just about all of the Ground types come in for free, since all it can do against them is hit them for neutral damage with Shadow Ball...which barely phases most of them while they either set up, get Rocks up or just straight up kills something else on your team. As an Electric pivot, Manectic is superior despite being slower and slightly weaker, since it has Overheat to scorch Torterra and Steelix, and Switcheroo to cripple Gastrodon, Rhyperior and Chansey.

Would you like a defensive Rapid Spinner? Great, here's Claydol. It's immune to both kinds of Spikes and Sticky Web and has Teleport to get a teammate in safely. If you don't care about keeping your own hazards, here's Mantine - it has great bulk and reliable recovery to boot. Would you like a more offensive hazard remover? Great, here's Kabutops - between its STABs and Knock Off it threatens just about every spinblocker in the tier. I just can't figure out why you'd use this. Hell even Sandslash would be better.

Overall, really enjoying this meta so far. Best RU tier since BW IMO. Peace.

 

[ExiDudi]

The idea with this is that you don't let them activate guts-

But that would only work after a double ko or you U turn into manectric and U Turn kills, and then they go into their guts mon. That's a little bit too situational.

 

[Sputnik]

Gonna talk about a couple of bulky mons that I think should be talked about


The loss of Arcanine (seriously, why?) meant that we lost one of our better Intimidators, but fortunately Granbull is here to pick up the slack while also offering some other excellent attributes. Granbull is a nice check to most fighting-types in the tier as well as really messing with Absol, a Pokemon that is often otherwise extremely dangerous. Intimidate also means that it can help hold off Rhyperior and also beats physically biased Sharpedo, although I expect the presence of Granbull will lead many Sharpedos to switch to Hydro Pump for their Water-STAB. Intimidate is also generally nice to help hold off certain physical attackers, such as Swellow, and it offers Cleric support if your team needs that. It's a cool mon that works great in balance cores and is definitely worth using.

The loss of Zapdos has suddenly made Mantine the single most splashable Pokemon in the tier in my opinion. Very few teams aren't made better by the introduction of Mantine, as it's the only good defogger and also has a really nice defensive profile that helps out against threats like Sharpedo and many of the tiers Fire-types. With speed investment it also checks Rhyperior, and the last move slot is quite flexible; Ice Beam and Air Slash are both viable attacking moves for it, and Haze can be nice to mess with Pokemon trying to boost on you. Very cool Pokemon that is making it really hard to build with other waters solely because it's often difficult to jusify not using Mantine. (The exception to this rule is Phys Def Gastro and even then often you want the defogging)

I haven't seen this talked about much; it stayed RU but it was pretty terrible in Alpha as it was a super fake Kingdra answer and didn't really help against the brokens of the meta overall. Now, however, I think Cradily is a pretty nice choice; it's a Stealth Rocker with recovery and a unique typing/ability that lets it sit on Mantine, which is a cool trait for a Stealth Rocker. It's also a great Exploud answer, as Boomburst bounces off and you can recover off the damage easily, and it checks Raichu, something that can give the common Mantine/Lix cores some issues. The normal resist is also nice, as I've been seeing a lot more Kanga and it can hold off other Normals such as Tauros and Bibarel. Not amazing or anything but meta trends have really benefitted Cradily and its a pretty solid choice for some balances right now in my opinion.

 

[Noden]

Tier S+

Aerodactyl @ Focus Sash
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake

cracked.

Tier S-

Medicham @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pure Power
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Zen Headbutt
- Thunder Punch
- Bullet Punch

This physical wallbreaker feels really overwhelming in this tier, even with the arrival of granbull, which greatly checks this pokemon, it is still feels extremely strong, and one of the best wallbreakers in this meta, bullet punch for increased priority

Tier B+

Dusknoir @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Will-O-Wisp
- Night Shade/EQ/Brick Break/THUNDER PUNCH!?
- Pain Split

Dusknoir shines brightly beside Rotom, owing to the fact that the ladder is usually not ran in the bulky variant, this ghost pokemon is a nice complementary option to spin teams, because if they deal with Rotom, they still have to worry about this 300 DEF 300 SPD Tank; Thunder-punch deals with common defogger Mantine, and puts pressure on Xatu offensive even more, better if ran alongside an offensive settler like Aerodactyl.

300 DEF+ SPD Base Mixed Tank, 328 ATK, Priority Stab, decent recovery, checks claydol, 2HKO's mantine with thunder punch, will-o user.

252+ Atk Dusknoir Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 272-320 (72.9 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Dusknoir Shadow Sneak vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Claydol: 116-138 (35.9 - 42.7%) -- 89.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[ExiDudi]

Tier S+

View attachment 404703


cracked.

Tier S-

View attachment 404698


This physical wallbreaker feels really overwhelming in this tier, even with the arrival of granbull, which greatly checks this pokemon, it is still feels extremely strong, and one of the best wallbreakers in this meta, bullet punch for increased priority

Tier B+
View attachment 404701


Dusknoir shines brightly beside Rotom, owing to the fact that the ladder is usually not ran in the bulky variant, this ghost pokemon is a nice complementary option to spin teams, because if they deal with Rotom, they still have to worry about this 300 DEF 300 SPD Tank; Thunder-punch deals with common defogger Mantine, and puts pressure on Xatu offensive even more, better if ran alongside an offensive settler like Aerodactyl.

300 DEF+ SPD Base Mixed Tank, 328 ATK, Priority Stab, decent recovery, checks claydol, 2HKO's mantine with thunder punch, will-o user.

Okay, so first about aerodactyl. It's not even close to S. Imo it's quite bad. It has competition with rhyp which already is a bad start as rhyp is a fantastic mon. It has horrible bulk and doesn't hit hard enough since it lost DD and hone claws. It has an amazing speed tier but that doesn't do much if it's so frale nearly anything OHKOs and it can't really threaten many OHKOs itself. As a lead it's okay. But rhyp sets up rocks itself, isn't so frale that it will never live past turn 3 and is offensively threatening. Omastar can lay down stealth rock AND spikes and also is offensively threatening. Aero can use taunt and is nearly guaranteed to get it's rocks up but that's not nearly enough to make it an S tier mon, it probably not even the best lead. Medicham is good, I wouldn't say overwhelming as it's countered by granbull and sableye, has really poor bulk and isn't really fast without scarf. It's really good regardless. Can't say too much about dusknoir yet, feels a little high though, especially when you see its usage.