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Headlines Russia invades Ukraine
- Thread starter RaikouLover
- Start date
Opinion: Azof battalion are Nazis, Right Wing extremists are waaay too powerful in Ukraine, and Russia’s got big responsibility for them being a thing.
For folks on the left, this should be a familiar argument. Is Hamas a group responsible for radical right wing violence? Sure, but is their perpetuation and popular support in Palestine because Palestinians bad or because Israeli Apartheid bad? American imperialism bad?
I’d argue that Ukrainian right wing perpetuation is pretty analogous, and Russia shares a big responsibility.
Even if the nationalists have acted like the big protectors of Ukraine so far, by reporting I’ve seen so far on this war Azof weak, war contributions weak— and Ukraine’s resilience in this war is 99.9999% Ukrainian soldiers and civilians stance for belief in their pro-democracy/moral cause, 0.0001% (or less?) Nazi nationalism. It ain’t the Nazis making a difference in this war, and I hope Ukrainians will remember that.
For folks on the left, this should be a familiar argument. Is Hamas a group responsible for radical right wing violence? Sure, but is their perpetuation and popular support in Palestine because Palestinians bad or because Israeli Apartheid bad? American imperialism bad?
I’d argue that Ukrainian right wing perpetuation is pretty analogous, and Russia shares a big responsibility.
Even if the nationalists have acted like the big protectors of Ukraine so far, by reporting I’ve seen so far on this war Azof weak, war contributions weak— and Ukraine’s resilience in this war is 99.9999% Ukrainian soldiers and civilians stance for belief in their pro-democracy/moral cause, 0.0001% (or less?) Nazi nationalism. It ain’t the Nazis making a difference in this war, and I hope Ukrainians will remember that.
In the first place the Israeli government fought a whole war culminating in Hamas governing in Gaza, this was part of a divide and rule strategy to split the Palestinian leadership and triangulate Palestinian organizations. Hamas has v little to do w Russia. Hamas are Islamists, but that does not make them radical rightwing extremists in any ordinary sense, there is nothing imaginary and pretensive about the victimhood of Palestinians. It is p not great looking imo to bring up Palestinians in this weird way to dismiss allegations of anti-semitism/nazism. In this context looks v. weird and bad, + is appropriating this idea of Palestinian oppression to make a claim about a Nazi group that the Ukrainian gov made part of the nat'l guard. If a ukrainian citizen brought this up you would not give them any comfort by mentioning the Palestinian's relationship w Hamas which did not come about democratically in any case. You mentioned that Russia has a big part on the existence of the Azov grouping which is correct, they promote rightwing extremism all over the globe, and while it is possible to be pleased that rightwing violence is turning on itself I wouldnt get too excited about it, thats kind of the problem we have been having, we are dealing with a legacy of promoting right wing extremism for the sake of geopolitical expedience and I just wouldn't get too invested in defending these things.
You are diving too much into details of an only loosely related analogy for an argument that’s much simpler. The more important part is the analogy between US Imperialism and Russian imperialism.
Ie. It’s possible to have negative sentiment to violent groups connected to a racial/religious/national reactionism, but recognize how that doesn’t appear in a vacuum, and recognize when a stronger imperialist power is greatly responsible for the persistence of those reactionary groups.
Is it possible to think that Azof are Nazis and that Russia plays a big responsibility for their existence? If you think yes, then we’re on the same page.
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Ehhh. I disagree. Roughly 1/3 of humans have authoritarian personality type. It pains me to admit but there is a biological desire for fascism within a given population.
I can't help but view all the sanctions as another symbolic gesture that will hurt the Russian people. Putin does not seem to care about the well-being of his people. I know countries are targeting the profits for the Russian elites as well, but I doubt it will be enough to stop the invasion.
When have economic sanctions actually worked against powerful dictator types? Feel free to educate me
When have economic sanctions actually worked against powerful dictator types? Feel free to educate me
Is that even the right question?
The bottom line is that Russia has the most nuclear weapons on the planet and appeasing a despot is simply unacceptable. Therefore, the options are other avenues of punishment (I.e. economic isolation) or all out (nuclear) war. We chose the former.
a biological disposition to fascism? based on what? your amateur views on "human nature" and "the authoritarian?" this thread has seriously taken a turn for the worst. a biological disposition to fascism. biological. think about what you just said and its implications. you know, most of the people in this thread are confused liberals but you take it to another level. the dehumanization of the russian people and your antagonistic relationship to any real knowledge or interpretation as an american of all things is a far greater 'disposition to fascism' than you could ever project onto those in eastern europe. the truth of the matter behind your ridiculous views is that you, along with many others, are the true fascists. at least people like chou argue in good faith.
everybody else in the thread who are americans should be thinking about how exactly, as americans, they can stop the war in russia/ukraine through de-escalation. if you dislike conflict as much as you claim then you should stop cosplaying as war generals and instead realize your position.
everybody else in the thread who are americans should be thinking about how exactly, as americans, they can stop the war in russia/ukraine through de-escalation. if you dislike conflict as much as you claim then you should stop cosplaying as war generals and instead realize your position.
A few thoughts,
In other news, Poutin spoke today. Both times; first time in a call with Macron and also I think very recently the Russian national television (sorry I can't find an English source right now for this). Given some wording choice may interesting to some, I translated below the message after Macron call from French to English, idk what to do
TLDR; russia announce that they won't stop unless Ukraine surrender.
Since this thread is (very naturally) americano-centred, I thought I'd share my opinion. This war is absolutely game changing. It has been a full week already but we're only starting to see its consequences.
First of all, there is now a full, general, complete european consensus against Russia, which is seen as a very serious threat to the stability of the continent. During the diplomatic crisis and before invasion, this consensus was somewhat uncertain, as some country were recalcitrant to act against Moscow. For example, Germany had a unreleased gas pipeline project (between it and the Russia) called Nord Stream 2 since a long time; they threatened to close it but given Germany dependence to gas, it was seen as a quite risky move to do it. They did it, though. And then after that, there is the sanctions. (Oh by the way, quick point on like what sanctions are meant to; from my impression, they're meant to raise the cost of the war for Moscow. The hope is that the war become at some point (when exactly is tbd) too expensive comparing to what its can bring, ultimately forcing Russia find a issue like negotiations or full war (which one is also tbd...). Military help to Ukraine is coming from numerous country, and EU itself invested in military equipment for Ukraine, in a unprecedented decision. Which bring me on my next point!
Another consequence is, for the better or the worse, incoming raise for military budget in the world. Indeed, how can you consider safe if bigger country invade smaller one? In Germany, Chancellor Olaf Scholz already pronounced a speech where he announced a raise in military budget (2% of PIB, IIRC), a complete change in Germany, where soldiers numbers was decreasing. In my country (France) there is presidential election that is kinda obstructed by the war, but nonetheless all candidates are suggesting some military budget raise (and also every once pro-putin candidates did a u-turn about him lol). More and more people in Sweden thinks about joining NATO, etc etc. My point: there will probably more military budget in the future.
First of all, there is now a full, general, complete european consensus against Russia, which is seen as a very serious threat to the stability of the continent. During the diplomatic crisis and before invasion, this consensus was somewhat uncertain, as some country were recalcitrant to act against Moscow. For example, Germany had a unreleased gas pipeline project (between it and the Russia) called Nord Stream 2 since a long time; they threatened to close it but given Germany dependence to gas, it was seen as a quite risky move to do it. They did it, though. And then after that, there is the sanctions. (Oh by the way, quick point on like what sanctions are meant to; from my impression, they're meant to raise the cost of the war for Moscow. The hope is that the war become at some point (when exactly is tbd) too expensive comparing to what its can bring, ultimately forcing Russia find a issue like negotiations or full war (which one is also tbd...). Military help to Ukraine is coming from numerous country, and EU itself invested in military equipment for Ukraine, in a unprecedented decision. Which bring me on my next point!
Another consequence is, for the better or the worse, incoming raise for military budget in the world. Indeed, how can you consider safe if bigger country invade smaller one? In Germany, Chancellor Olaf Scholz already pronounced a speech where he announced a raise in military budget (2% of PIB, IIRC), a complete change in Germany, where soldiers numbers was decreasing. In my country (France) there is presidential election that is kinda obstructed by the war, but nonetheless all candidates are suggesting some military budget raise (and also every once pro-putin candidates did a u-turn about him lol). More and more people in Sweden thinks about joining NATO, etc etc. My point: there will probably more military budget in the future.
In other news, Poutin spoke today. Both times; first time in a call with Macron and also I think very recently the Russian national television (sorry I can't find an English source right now for this). Given some wording choice may interesting to some, I translated below the message after Macron call from French to English, idk what to do
After his discussion with Poutin, Emmanuel Macron thinks that "the worst is yet to come"; Poutine is "very determined", Élysée Palace said.
After his discussion with Vladimir Poutin, French president thinks that "the worst is yet to come" in Ukraine. Poutin showed "his strong determination" to carry on his offensive, in order to "take control" of the whole country, Élysée Palace said.
In a phone call that lasted one hour and half (and that took place to Poutin request), the Russian president said to Macron that military operations of Russian military forces expanded "accordingly to the plan" planned by Moscow; these military operations will "worsen" if Ukrainian do not accept his terms, Élysée said. "What President [Macron] anticipate is that the worst is yet to come, given what Putin said", according to Élysée.
After his discussion with Vladimir Poutin, French president thinks that "the worst is yet to come" in Ukraine. Poutin showed "his strong determination" to carry on his offensive, in order to "take control" of the whole country, Élysée Palace said.
In a phone call that lasted one hour and half (and that took place to Poutin request), the Russian president said to Macron that military operations of Russian military forces expanded "accordingly to the plan" planned by Moscow; these military operations will "worsen" if Ukrainian do not accept his terms, Élysée said. "What President [Macron] anticipate is that the worst is yet to come, given what Putin said", according to Élysée.
TLDR; russia announce that they won't stop unless Ukraine surrender.
I really dislike essentialist world views, but I understand you are pointing at studies that have established that there are personality types more open to authoritarianism.
Even if I grant you that though, the argument being made is not about whether people like authoritarians— it’s about whether or not authoritarians are allowed to take over and hold meaningful power. Just because there is potential for a fascist sentiment in every society doesn’t mean fascists are actually allowed any real power or to be out in the open at a given time. Circumstances and conditions matter.
Like there were Nazis in New York with hail George Washington messaging during the Great Depression but the country elected FDR— who went on to massively win over the entire country and become the most progressive President in America’s history. Even those “biologically loving fascism” loved the Social Democratic agenda and its President.
Now you could turn that example around and say that FDR was an authoritarian for his style of leadership and strong arming the New Deal and Social Security through, and leading Americans into WWII— or even a fascist, and as a Japanese American I wouldn’t be inclined to disagree fully given internment camps, and red-lining during the New Deal, and “Europe First” War strategy and massive bombing of our own citizens in the Philippines (even as the Philippines were American territory and the population American nationals at the time, we fire bombed the Japanese and the civilian population to preserve the lives of white Soldiers; pretty damn cringe FDR)—
but that still means that sentiment to authoritarianism doesn’t ensure the rise of reactionary politics because authoritarian voters can also be made to love pro-democracy and pro-democratic socialism leaders. 40+ states voted for the guy who said “ALL people of the World have 4 Freedoms— Freedom FROM Hunger, Freedom FROM War, along with Freedom of Speech and Religion.”
I would bet there were a looooot of people of the personality types you are pointing to that marched behind Martin Luther King or picked up arms as a Black Panther.
ie. Even if true (and probably still lots of room for science/interpretation to debate there), that’s only tangentially related to the argument because even if such a “genotype” exists, the “phenotype” of political expression of individuals and society is largely affected by circumstance—
Like Russian aggression against Ukraine.
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Please do but i cant promise i wont angery react
Saying people are genetically predisposed to fascism is gross. That’s ignoring so, so many factors of how people fall down into that sort of thing. At best that sentiment is discarding so many more important factors like where when and how you’re raised and how you interact with your environment. At worst it’s flat out invoking eugenic policy. I would not call a predisposition for a 60 year old to wander down Facebook rabbit holes and ending up believing Putin is actually trying to stop a pedophile cabal in the ukraine a genetic predisposition to facist thinking the same way I would not call a baby left in an unattended swimming pool as having a genetic predisposition to drowning. A surrounding environment plays so much more of a role in that sort of drop.
Mister Tim Egor don't feel hated or frowned upon by people, the people are NOT responsible for armed conflicts, whether in history or in the present, fuck racists and fuck those who use that to get out hateful and racist remarks
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Savior of smogon
I agree we're all pokemon players in the first place lol tsé le mec qui valide
Egor We exist as a people to not blindly condemn one side or the other without a deep understanding of each side’s truth and pathology that lead to said truths so we can discern our own understandings. It would be huge to hear this from you or anyone else that wants to contribute…
… with a caveat: do so respectfully.
I just deleted a handful of posts seeped in ad hominem. This is an incredibly sensitive time as history unfolds literally in front of our eyes, but we have to have this discussion without including your personal stake in other users.
Carry on!
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Environment matters, yes. However, if it were all environmental, why does neo-fascism persist in every single liberal democracy on the planet? Even in a utopian society there still will be people drawn to fascism.
The original comment was not intended as a moral judgement. I was simply stating a fact, that there are personality types drawn to authoritarianism and it is biological in origin.
Back at the plot, I know folks are saying sanctions won’t make a difference and I tend to agree insofar as it’s highly unlikely to prompt an ousting of Putin by the Oligarchy in a short time frame. They’ll only play a role in physically crippling the economic power needed to logistically support the war. Not political effect but mostly only forceful effect, and not likely to end things quickly or neatly.
It’s tragic because this “The West doesn’t try to understand Russia’s side” and the political circumstances the make it impossible for Putin to back off amount to “If we give up Ukraine to the West, Russia is totally totally fucked and we actually are already really really fucked and need help but we’re not able to admit that because Putin strong man, we can’t show weaknesss, and because the West is bad and we can’t accept help from them.”
…can’t we all just get along?
Also No Fly Zone is out of the question imo. Was really glad to hear continued steady restraint at Biden’s address. There’s no way we can have US/NATO weapons and planes shooting down Russian planes.
Sympathy for the Ukrainians of course— but starting WWIII is no option at all.
It’s tragic because this “The West doesn’t try to understand Russia’s side” and the political circumstances the make it impossible for Putin to back off amount to “If we give up Ukraine to the West, Russia is totally totally fucked and we actually are already really really fucked and need help but we’re not able to admit that because Putin strong man, we can’t show weaknesss, and because the West is bad and we can’t accept help from them.”
…can’t we all just get along?
Also No Fly Zone is out of the question imo. Was really glad to hear continued steady restraint at Biden’s address. There’s no way we can have US/NATO weapons and planes shooting down Russian planes.
Sympathy for the Ukrainians of course— but starting WWIII is no option at all.
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China “Deplores outbreak of Violence,” and “respects autonomy of all nations.”
Peking might start having some stronger words for Putin behind the scenes as Russia’s war efforts get stalled out and if Russian/Belarusian conflict with the West makes a Belt and Road Initiative impossible.
There's plenty of precedent for nuclear powers conflicting with one another without utilising nuclear weapons. Turkey has also shot down a Russian plane without much escalation. The US and Soviet Union have fought, as have India and China (multiple times), and India and Pakistan. IMO Biden's dead wrong in saying a NFZ will escalate to all-out war between the two powers and it's a serious blunder for not deploying one immediately after Russia started bombing civilian structures.
Russia and Putin especially have backed themselves in a corner. Irridentist ambitions have been a goal of the Russian Federation (and Belarus for that matter) since its formation and have been a principal factor for countries seeking to join NATO. Turns out persistently attacking your neighbours tends to alienate an entire region towards your enemies.
also, please don't take anything Krystal Ball has touched seriously. She's a GOP operative who pretends to be a Democrat as part of an astroturf to jam Democratic messaging. Just a couple years ago she was running propaganda straight from Rudy Giuliani and Dmytro Firtash's lawyers and ever since her grift became unprofitable for The Hill she's been replaced by a paid stooge of the Assad regime. It's WILD to me that Americans (let alone American Leftists) could take anything from her or her co-hosts seriously after they hosted Deripaska to try discrediting the Mueller probe, or the constant dismissal of the impeachment investigation over Trump holding military aid hostage in return for Zelenskyy corrupting the Ukrainian judicial system the way Trump wanted, efforts that Ball's boss was party to. As overhyped as Russian/Chinese relations are, the PRC's statements aren't indicative of a break in cooperation with Russia but rather a desire for the status quo. China doesn't want any situation in which it has to choose between Europe and Russia, nor does it want any changes in dynamics in Central Asia that don't favour it, which includes Central Asian regimes getting pissed over China signing on to Russia invading and plundering its neighbours. IMO China taking this position is more indicative of it perceiving itself as a regional hegemon than anything else.
Secondly, the war only delays the BRI in the region. Like in Syria, it's likely that China will actually be able to build its project for cheaper than anticipated, owing to just how devastated the country is from aerial bombardments.
I can't believe anyone left leaning would want us shooting down Russian planes in a hot war. No, just no. Glad Biden's in charge.
Don't get it twisted, I'm no Breaking Points fan. Ever since the 2020 Dem Primary ended, the audience has grown more and more right-wing Pro-Trump, and I've unsubbed. It's just that leftie tube has been pretty pretty dumb on this issue (like if you think Krystal is uninformed and sympathetic to Russia, I'd implore you to look at the sad state of Hasan's content on this topic), and unfort Krystal and Saagar have been making good sense on this one. If anything, that says more about the state of the Left than about them.
Yeah and the status quo would be better than all-out war in Ukraine; and if China can help us get there that would be a good thing. Whether they end up as a force for good or bad on this issue, it's something to pay attention to.
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waiting for it, only russian i saw once trying to give their side of the history sounded like the psycho communist garbage (not saying putin government is communist but it sounded like that) that would try to defend venezuelan goverment from everything they have done after 20 years on my country