Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

[ProNooob]

Can I know why you are opposing a rillaboom rise? I feel it is good with specially defensive lando rising, corv dropping, and skarm not even being ou.

In general, rillaboom has everything it needs to be generally good, but in a meta where uturn is sooo widespread, physdef bulk is everywhere, and a horrible typing, it can't really do much that others can not.

 

[Stunfisk2140]

Hi guys I am not an experienced poster and this is my first post . I hope you all welcome my opinions. I would like to give some nominations in the VR

A+ -> S- : I don’t get why this thing dropped in the first place. This mon has always been one of the biggest meta threats for a long time. Shadow ball is a super spammable and free damage move which makes ghosts an important part of the meta threats. It’s high speed makes it a solid speed control option combined with splashability makes it flexible in almost any teams bar stall. It’s got incredible sets and no set more fascinating that the other. Pls put it back where it belongs.

Some Calcs: 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 136-162 (35.6 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 308-364 (77.1 - 91.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 130-154 (37.7 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

B -> A- : This mon is super good right now. It appreciates the drop of and , the only 2 mons it usually struggles against. It hits majority of the meta super effectively and is very good at breaking balance cores and certain stalls. It also serves a niche defensive utility with the help of it’s ground/poison typing in absorbing toxic spikes and checking and the most popular electrics right now. It’s also got some dank sets like all out 4atk being its most popular one. Mixed focus punch variants and lead sash nidoking(Omari P special).

Some Calcs:

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Clefable: 406-478 (103 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 458-541 (119.8 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO



252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 343-406 (85.9 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran: 624-738 (161.6 - 191.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

A ->A+ : This mon is a monster. A huge meta threat and a terrifying wallbreaker in its own right plus it’s got psychic terrain support combined with a decent speed tier which makes it harder to revenge kill. This mon capable of breaking fat teams with its strong stabs fairy/psychic with good coverage moves like focus blast, thunderbolt and with the drop of , its better than never right now. Popular sets like scarf and specs wreck havoc on any teams unprepared for it. Scarf probably the best set as it’s extremely hard to revenge kill when supported with psychic terrain and also provides the power enough to deal good amount of damage on teams. Specs is unwallable with its terrifying breaking power as its capable of even denting resists like and with focus blast and ferro might be overwhelmed by psychic itself as most ferrothorn run defensive sets. Pls give this mon the place it deserves.

Some Calcs:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn in Psychic Terrain: 138-163 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Psychic Terrain: 133-157 (34.4 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran: 328-388 (84.9 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight in Psychic Terrain: 162-191 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery



B+ -> A- : This mon is underrated in my opinion. Packing a huge attack stat, dark typing that’s allows it to be a decent ghost resist pairing along with steel typing that allows it to check one of the biggest meta threats right now. It’s a staple on most spikestacking hyper offenses and some spikestack bulky offense builds. Bisharp really appreciates the drop of one of its most prominent checks(though should vary of knock) as it can get more setup opportunity and can punch holes in teams with sheer power helping its teammates to break opponent teams better. It also loves the popularity of defog like and which bisharp preys on. You know a mon is serious when it can prey on something like the meta lion.It’s also got useful priority move sucker punch which is very useful for revenge killing something faster.

Some Calcs:-

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 329-387 (82.4 - 96.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 250-294 (72.6 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 234-277 (76.9 - 91.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock



Now you all might argue about its competition with , another popular defiant abuser. So I would like to give some pros about bisharp over Galar-Zapdos.

Bisharp Strengths over Zapdos-Galar :-

• 1.Dark typing and a niche defensive utility in checking weavile.
• 2.Useful Priority move that can slot it another useful role of being a revenge killer of fast mons or weather abusers.
• 3.Little longevity issues and can be useful in the long term course of the game as it doesn’t kill itself with its own moves except being spikes weak.
• 4.Better vs as it can kill it from full and switch into shadow ball avoiding a 2hko after rocks.
• 5.Access to stab knock off. The best move in the meta in it’s own right on top of that, it’s a stab move from a high attack stat which is gonna do some big chunk of damage.
• 6.Better vs CP mew(should vary of BP sets which are rare as they lose to toxic) which is still a dangerous variant in the right MU and is still a meta threat that should be taken care off.

Bisharp getting used by great tour players:-



https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-601728

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-601693

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-601014

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-601728

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-601630

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1467587381-76rbm3khi8csfzapta4ekszpowvets5pw vs clean cuts



I hope you all like my post and give honest views about it. I am very willing to change my point of view based on opinions from more experienced people.

 

[Ruparajan]

I don't like making this nom because I don't like Lando. It's ugly and stupid.

Lando to S+

85% usage in SPL. No other ground comes close. Guess that's what happens when Gliscor doesn't exist and the next best one doesn't have U-Turn and is weak to Fairy. Everyone knows what Lando does, so I don't think I need to explain it. But I will explain why I think it should be S+

First off, it's usage. 85% usage is insane. Like ORAS ubers Groudon insane. I don't want to say Lando is necessary on every team, but at the same time, it kinda is? Why wouldn't you use a Ground immune Electric immune Intimidate mon that can pivot with u turn and set up rocks/defog hazards and put opposing landos on timers with toxic or Knock Off? No team is hurt by its presence. Basically every team is helped by it. You can put Lando on basically any team and it'll do its job with no drawbacks. I can't think of a single drawback of using Lando. Like maybe it prevents you from using garchomp on the same team due to the ice weakness and weaviles presence, but like, even that's not the worst thing in the world.

S+ is basically reserved for the King of a tier, a mon that is basically necessary on every team and has no drawbacks to using it. Lando is OUs glue. And I'm pretty confident it reaches that threshold. No other mons come close to its usage. Weavile is pretty high at almost 50%, but that's still 35% Less than Lando. Think about that. 50% usage for a mon is insane. 85% is beyond that. It's pretty damn clear Lando is the best mon in the tier, and it's not very close (from a role standpoint, heatran and weavile are stupid good too in their roles)

The main reason I bring this up is it allows Weavile and Heatran to both be full S rank. They're #2 and #3 in the meta right now, and having ferro alongside them feels weird. Ferro fits S-, but the other two don't. I asked why heatran wasn't S rank and the answer was basically "It's not lando". So why not just bite the bullet, put Lando in S+, then put weavile and heatran in S. Ferro stays in S-. This way, anyone who views the VR sees what the top 4 mons are and how they fit in the meta. Maybe this lets pult back into S-, maybe not. Not nominating it anywhere, but it's right on that threshold where there's arguments for both S- and A+

I get that people don't like seeing S+ on VRs, but I've played all of XY, most of ORAS, and about 11 months of SS, alongside some DPP and SM. I don't think I've seen this level of centralization of a single mon in any of those tiers. They all have their monsters like excadrill/clef in oras, pex/mag in sm, or rachi/ttar in dpp, but even those don't reach the levels of Lando in ss.

I don't think any mons are on the level of Lando in the meta. You're even seeing stuff like air balloon heatran and Aqua Tail garchomp to try and take advantage of landos ubiquity in the tier and even that's not stopping it. Weavile had a fluke shitty week 1 and then went right back to tearing teams apart, but even so Lando is more used than ever. I don't really think there's anything that could happen to change this. If gliscor got freed maybe, but gamefreak doesn't like me.

Tl;dr:

Lando > S+
Heatran > S
Weavile > S

I agree with his nom. Lando-t is literally the king of the tier with a great usage. Nothing stands close to lando-t in form of viability. Clone has elaborated well so I am not going to go any further.

 

[Drahe]

B -> C+ or lower
Not enought def to work as a wall.
Same for SpD since ice SpA spam get ban.
Not enought damages for a breaker.
Not enought speed.
There is better pivots, defogers & knockers.
SD priority sweep rely on the same conditions as azumarill : psychic terrain enable this role. Curse is dependant of matchup & well countered by urshifu-rs critical-blows & any special fire move.
I dont personally thought it check stuff this well (wich is dependant of my playstyle so).
I don't find any use of it since kyu-ban.

 

[ant4456]

I can tell you some drawbacks to Lando-T:

-Intimidate not being that useful

Most physical Attackers don't care about Landorus-T. Even 4 Attack Zeraora. Because all of them can Knock Off, putting it on a faster timer, or in many cases they can literally just Swords Dance again. If you go to Lando-T on the turn my Garchomp uses Swords Dance, I have good options.

Kartana, Urshifu, Weavile, Barraskewda, Melmetal, Rillaboom all don't really have to care as well.

This means

-Landorus is being a Fake Gliscor

Landorus-T has bad recovery. This is kinda just a fact. It works on teams in this meta because most people play games that run fast, if not, Landorus-T dies not that far into a game and might not even make that much progress. In fact, I'd say defensive oriented teams make Landorus-T a joke sometimes. Being able to stay in with Toxapex on these SpDef Landos, Knock Off or Scald it and put it on a timer, win Rocks wars and etc. and *still* have a Toxapex at the end of the day with Regenerator. That's the kind of things that make Lando-T, in my opinion, not good enough for S. It's not good in every match-up, just the most common ones. Primal Groudon in ORAS would be above average in essentially every single match.

-Landorus's options aren't that unique

The main thing that makes Lando-T good to slap at the end with a few offense boys is that it's a pivot with support moves, of course. But these support moves are already likely able to fit on your team in a lot of ways, already likely are, and in my honest opinion, the combination of them doesn't make them better. Having Stealth Rocks and U-Turn isn't that helpful when you're a slow Lando-T. If you're using Knock Off, they're likely going to something that beats Lando-T and U-Turn isn't great there. Landorus is also suffering from success somewhat—there are many options in the metagame to punish Lando's U-Turns, especially since with little investment, Earthquake barely chips Pokémon such as Ferrothorn. There's also Statics, Flame Bodys and as I said, Pokémon like Toxapex can literally just stay in. It's hard for it to threaten out Pokémon for U-Turn to be a big zinger. Stealth Rocks are good, indeed, yes. I'd find it great that Landorus-T has Stealth Rocks if not for it being one of the most common moves anyways.

In my opinion, Landorus-T is good. Really good. But the fact that most people play fast-paced teams often, in my opinion, makes people forget Landorus's very real flaws. It's safe, but also not that special? It's a stopgap. If your Landorus-T isn't dead 30-50 turns in, the opposing player is not playing their cards right or you're not using your Landorus well enough. Because every time you throw it out, there is absolutely something that can cripple it.

 

[airfare]

i completely disagree with the idea of a torn rise to s-. imo it peaked a little while ago but now has fallen by the wayside a bit as the meta has evolved offensively, now fitting decently well in a+ because of its continued value with the inherent brokenness of regen + knock + turn + its speed tier and the middling consistency of av as a sort of special buffer.

one of the main reasons why i think its defensive utility is less valuable than a few months ago is because the metagame has largely shifted towards offensive mons that don't lose momentum to it: weavile, balloon tran, melmetal, volcanion, and zapdos are just a few examples of strong developments in offense that torn accomplishes next to nothing against. giving free rein especially to the three powerful electrics in zera + koko + zapdos is an especially undesirable trait given their offensive polarity. getting knocked off or toxiced by even the mons torn CAN beat (kart, lando, ferro) makes it even less consistent as doing its job of keeping hazards off or clicking its free-progress moves as freely. rocks offensive heatran eclipsing spdef variants or other lando as the best/most common hazard setter in the tier hasn't helped boots sets either.
boots torn struggles to accomplish as much defensively vs the offensive fire- and electric-types that have come to dominate the tier, and even loses common interactions against a large portion of other pokemon

as for av torn: i agree that it holds a unique place in being one of the only mons in the tier that can switch in and punish things like blacephalon, dragapult, and kart, but it's less reliable than it seems. the opportunity cost of dropping boots means that although torn can scout these attackers decently enough, it is absolutely unfit as a sole long-term answer on bulky offense when hazards are up. one draco from timid pult means you're in range of shadow ball upon your next switchin, and specs blacephalon can blow you out of the water altogether. av torn has adopted more of a tentative scouting role that makes you question running it altogether, as opposed to more proactive combos that can accomplish the same like lando/fini/misc spdef mon + weavile or even spdef heatran/toxapex. in addition, teams utilizing av torn often lean into it and lack other resists to the common special attackers of the tier. once you're eventually overwhelmed by the barrage of special attacks it's forced to take, you often lack additional defense to the polarizing fire- and ghost-types.
while stomaching a powerful hit to knock off or scout a choiced attack can be useful, av torn can't do anything besides that and is easily worn down long-term

torn vs special breakers

these calcs below detail just a few common interactions between av torn and the tier's most common special wallbreakers that it's meant to check. these should show how easily it can falter against any one of these pokemon.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 186-219 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 2hkod by sball after
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 114-135 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock spdef drop, modest nature, or slight chip beforehand? ur gone, and ur team structure relying on torn to wall ghosts likely lacks another ghost resist
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Overheat vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 247-292 (68.4 - 80.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock putting this, and the calc below, here just to show that you can't scout powerful special attackers with ease like the mfs on ladder try to do
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 207-244 (57.3 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (112 BP) vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 141-166 (39 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock even after two rounds of rocks, eruption + magma takes you out cleanly, while torn can only try to break the balloon with turn and risk sending another mon into a powerful attack

here are a few av torn structures from spl

just focusing on ghosts here, you can see the sort of over-reliance on torn as a wall in several of these. worth noting that the most reliable fog here comes from lando as well (not a good thing)

these two are more interesting examples in that they use av torn alongside the steel + weav combo to cover its weaknesses while maintaining some of that ability to scout breakers and reduce some of the risk involved in clicking around them

tornadus still holds a pretty unique spot as your generic bulky offense bird, but we've seen similar options like buzzwole and zapdos accomplish the same physically while any steel-type/toxapex/weavile combo can pretty much do the same or better specially. its offensive means of forcing progress, and utility in holding other fat teams from accomplishing the same, is unparalleled by nearly anything else in the tier besides toxapex and heatran - but its defensive weaknesses hold it back from being what it has been previously. don't rise torn

 

[fruityiscool423]

B+ to A- this guy fell off but idt it's a b+ mon walls weav,kart,ice punch dnite,cb ttar,chomp,zera, and that's like half of the tier right there. checks melm,gives a lot of chip to shifu and can even run enough def to not get 2hkoed by strikes (although i think that set is passive as fuck) cb has also been getting usage in spl+coverage for the flying types is very nice.buzz+fs is also a cool breaking core as this guy is v strong and can spam cc ice punch

 

[LudwigFrog]

B -> B- or C+

This metagame has been really harsh towards Rillaboom, and it's kind of surprising it still has enough usage to be OU. A lot of teams in the current metagame often run a physical wall to deal with pokemon like Weavile and Kartana, often being Buzzwole, or defensive Ferrothorn. That also comes with the bonus of handling Rillaboom. Rillaboom on paper seems really powerful, with a strong prority STAB move, fighting type coverage, and knock off. However, other pokemon do it's roll far better, while also providing other benefits. There has been a large usage in birds currently, notably Zapdos, and Tornadus-Therian. These matchups are very difficult for Rillaboom to deal with, as not only do they wall it forever, but also have strong STABS that take advantage of Rillabooms low spdef stat, and threaten the KO. One of Rillaboom's biggest competitors, Kartana, while although can struggle with these 2. Kartana packs a secondary typing, allowing it to actually deal with pokemon like Tornadus, and chipped down Buzzwole. Rillaboom has a very lackluster typing aswell, being pure grass. Rillaboom does have a good HP stat, but with the low Special Defense, and all the Hurricanes and Shadow balls flying around, it definitely isn't helping matters. Another factor hindering Rillaboom, is the large distripution and usage of U turn. Many pokemon run U turn now, and since Rillaboom is grass type, it will take heavy damage. Even pokemon that are special attackers will run U turn, and still deal around 35% to Rillaboom, while also getting in something that beats it. Lastly, it lacks speed, which can be problematic in the long term game. Grassy Glide is priority in the terrain, however, a lot of popular pokemon resist it, and while it does have coverage moves, it's often to slow, and it can't actually land those moves on pokemon like Offensive Heatran, Zapdos and Tornadus-T.

Overall, I think Rillaboom is struggling a lot right now, and I think Tapu Bulu is a better pokemon, as it has a secondary typing, allowing it to actually check Urshifu and be neutral to U turn. Bulu also has a usable Special Defense stat, making it better at coming in.
C+ might be stretching it a bit, but I think Rillaboom should drop to B-

 

[Dreadfury]

B+ --> A-

Nihilego is reaching borderline staple status on specific HO teams, and for good reason: it completely batters weakened teams in the lategame and has fantastic coverage that hits most of the tier extremely hard. Air Balloon Heatran becoming ever-increasingly prominent is a boon for Nihilego as it serves as a fantastic Rocker to pair with it. Nihilego doesn't match up super well against the S-rank mons, but only Ferrothorn wants anything to do with it, and it pressures the shit out of Koko, Fini, Torn-T, Clefable, Volc, any Corviknight lacking Iron Head, and Slowbro. Weakened teams that are forced to sac something to Power Herb Meteor Beam often get steamrolled by Nihilego (especially if it's running the 80/176/252+ spread for Speed boosts). It's not some OU superstar, but it's a very legitimate threat that I believe is better than most of B+ (besides one particular mon I have very strong feelings about).

B+ --> A

I know that mons generally don't jump multiple subranks in a single VR update, but I think Buzzwole has more than warranted a considerable rise by this point. Its typing in tandem with its ridiculous physical bulk is fantastic in the context of the current metagame due to its Ground and Dark resistances, and unlike most physical walls Buzzwole claps back extremely hard and isn't even particularly slow. It checks defensive Lando-T and can even switch in against variants lacking Toxic, it completely bricks Weavile (which is very much a top threat now), and it can also check Melmetal if it's healthy. Buzzwole bricks most of the tier's physical attackers and punishes them and most of their switchins quite well.

To put things into perspective, it received a solid 30% usage during week 6 of SPL and a decent ~17% usage during week 7 (narrowly breaking top 5 and top 10 for each respective week), but has an absurdly high winrate of 78% and 80% for each respective week. It's very consistent at what it does and is used often enough at a tournament level that I firmly believe it's significantly better than most of the mons in its current subrank.

C+ --> B-

Like Nihilego, Celesteela is a solid offensive mon with its Power Herb+Meteor Beam set. It's a bit more matchup-dependent than Nihilego but steamrolls matchups it performs well in all the same. The two even pair well together due to their ability to beat up their shared checks since most teams are very ill-equipped to handle both Celesteela and Nihilego since even one of them can snowball pretty quickly. I think it's a clearly worse mon than Nihilego, but it certainly doesn't suck.

B --> B+ or A-

The metagame shifts, and Nidoking once again finds itself in a prime position to snap teams' defensive backbones in two. It doesn't have very high usage even in tournament play since it's a bit more matchup-dependent, but it has a perfect winrate nevertheless (in spite of, but perhaps because of, said low usage) in weeks 6 and 7 of SPL, which is comparable to Slowbro, Rotom-W, and G-Zapdos for these weeks.

B --> B- (but not C+)

Man, I remember being the biggest damn Rilla stan out there when Monke was in his prime. Unfortunately, though, it's just not as effective as it used to be. Corviknight's usage has been dropping to some degree, but the mons that have filled that vacuum (Buzzwole, Zapdos, and DNite especially) have even better matchups against all Rilla variants. I think it still has plenty of merit that warrants its place above the C-ranks (it has a good matchup against the offensive Swift Swim mons that have been picking up steam, for example), but more teams have answers to it without even making too many compromises in the builder.

 

[SLDR]

i completely disagree with the idea of a torn rise to s-.

I agree on this opinion.
I feel like I almost always want to go with zapdos for the bird/kart check because its defensively more useful (comparing boots sets for both) and also has a much more imposing, immediate offensive presence to boot. zapdos itself is also tornt's worst nightmare because getting paralyzed by its static while trying to be useful with knock or uturn is a death sentence to any variant of tornt. weavile is also tornt's biggest threat as it's literally on every other team and uses tornt as a mon to threaten and fire off choice banded stabs or grab boosts. all these power herb mofos running around (nihilego, celesteela) aren't doing tornt any favour, especially nihilego.

that being said, av is still something only tornt can afford to do and I think that there are some optimization to be done to that set.

as for av torn: i agree that it holds a unique place in being one of the only mons in the tier that can switch in and punish things like blacephalon, dragapult, and kart, but it's less reliable than it seems. the opportunity cost of dropping boots means that although torn can scout these attackers decently enough, it is absolutely unfit as a sole long-term answer on bulky offense when hazards are up. one draco from timid pult means you're in range of shadow ball upon your next switchin, and specs blacephalon can blow you out of the water altogether. av torn has adopted more of a tentative scouting role that makes you question running it altogether, as opposed to more proactive combos that can accomplish the same like lando/fini/misc spdef mon + weavile or even spdef heatran/toxapex. in addition, teams utilizing av torn often lean into it and lack other resists to the common special attackers of the tier. once you're eventually overwhelmed by the barrage of special attacks it's forced to take, you often lack additional defense to the polarizing fire- and ghost-types.
while stomaching a powerful hit to knock off or scout a choiced attack can be useful, av torn can't do anything besides that and is easily worn down long-term

torn vs special breakers

these calcs below detail just a few common interactions between av torn and the tier's most common special wallbreakers that it's meant to check. these should show how easily it can falter against any one of these pokemon.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 186-219 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 2hkod by sball after
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 114-135 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock spdef drop, modest nature, or slight chip beforehand? ur gone, and ur team structure relying on torn to wall ghosts likely lacks another ghost resist
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Overheat vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 247-292 (68.4 - 80.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock putting this, and the calc below, here just to show that you can't scout powerful special attackers with ease like the mfs on ladder try to do
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 207-244 (57.3 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (112 BP) vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 141-166 (39 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock even after two rounds of rocks, eruption + magma takes you out cleanly, while torn can only try to break the balloon with turn and risk sending another mon into a powerful attack

Your argument for av tornt being slightly worse at this point in the meta is agreeable: it has to tank a lot of neutral hits, volcanion and blacephalon are very difficult to switch into, pult is the easiest but the damage output combined its speed and tornt's stealth rock weakness doesn't make av tornt a foolproof answer.
however, I do think the role of a specially bulky pivot is still very valuable for those bo/offensive teams as tornt is to be played as a scout.
apart from ghost, you always have a resist to fire, dragon or water to pivot into after tornt has scouted the special attackers, plus weavile is more than likely a good fit for your team and av tornt can actually gift it free switches on choice locked ghost types.

what i disagree with the most is tornt lacking means to threaten these switchins back. as I explained here, superpower on av tornt is actually a very decent tool for two reasons: it forced 50% min to offensive heatran while breaking its balloon, which means the next eruption is halved at the very least (also lures rare ttars and can force damage on blissey as well). secondly, it forces a jolly nature as heat wave ohkos kartana even at -3 lol and jolly hurricane always ohkos as well, meaning tornt's knock off actually does threaten an ohko on blacephalon. knock off itself is a tool to weaken the opposing pokemon's damage output and it's a good threat if rocks aren't up on tornt's side due to it remaining at a good enough health to fire off a safe knock off.

also, the spread you provided is kinda the easy go-to spread for av tornt, but if the objective of av tornt is to pivot around special attackers while still outspeeding and checking kart, you can easily find a more optimal spread by transfering some hp evs into special defense. the most optimal I found was this:

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 112 HP / 224 SpD / 172 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Heat Wave / Hurricane
- Superpower

with hp still divisible by 3 for max regen value, speed to out-uturn other torns and keep your av and spdef for spdef purposes, which creates some interesting defensive scenarios.

as you'll see in the calcs spoiler, tornt is definitely not a foolproof switch or even pivot for every special attacker in the tier, but its the only Pokémon that most bo/offensive teams can use to catch specs shadowballs while not immediately folding to secondary stabs and coverage options, while still keeping usable defensive utility against most of the others special attackers (tapu lele and volcanion being the ugliest matchups) on top of still being non passive and useful as a standalone pokèmon. also, relying on tornt to take on every special atackers in the first place is a recipe for disaster and you shouldn't do it in the first place.

while stomaching a powerful hit to knock off or scout a choiced attack can be useful, av torn can't do anything besides that and is easily worn down long-term

This statement is still theoretically valid, but the few turns and safe manouvering av tornt grants you are what certain bo/offenses need to function properly. as you showcased, most av tornt builds are pivot-heavy bo/offenses where av tornt has a lot ot chances to heal itself back through regenerator as well. i do agree that, if you can fit weavile, you are doing a really good favour to av tornt due to weavile in the back will be forcing the ghost spam user to switch out immediately. however, av tornt is literally the closest thing to a ghost resist (more like shadow ball resist) that isn't actually one, so teams that utilizes it alongside other specially bulky pokèmon like landot, fini, heatran,... will still be doing alright.
this moreso speaks about the inherent brokenness of having a mon with base 100 spatk / 142 speed and another with base 151 spatk / 107 speed firing off stabs that are resisted by two extremely fringe/bad defensive types in the metagame - you'll never be truly safe against offensive ghosts.

the main problem i've experienced with av tornt is that you end up having to dance around kartana really carefully (which is why i usually want to use zapdos). having buzzwole on the back helps a lot but building with av tornt and buzzwole is extremely difficult.

calcs

Timid
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 94-112 (28.7 - 34.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 229-272 (70 - 83.1%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Modest
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 103-123 (31.4 - 37.6%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 253-299 (77.3 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock

basically this new spread turns timid specs pult damage output from your calcs into modest specs pult.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Overheat vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 205-243 (62.6 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
mind you this is a neutral hit from something as strong as blacephalon: living this nonsense after rocks is mad for a mon weak to rocks.
also:
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 127-150 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO / 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 144-169 (44 - 51.6%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO

0 Atk Tornadus-Therian Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 232-274 (93.9 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (60 Atk EVs are required for a 100% OHKO)
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 156-184 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO

0 Atk Tornadus-Therian Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 164-194 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (73 BP) vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 76-91 (23.2 - 27.8%) -- 81.6% chance to 4HKO (after min roll superpower)
252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (59 BP) vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 61-73 (18.6 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO (after max roll superpower)
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 171-202 (52.2 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Flamethrower vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 141-166 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Sludge Wave vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 99-117 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

good luck lol. you can scout slightly better with this spread but you wont threaten back: use tornt to scout and switch to the appropriate mon.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________




252 SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian in Psychic Terrain: 205-243 (62.6 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 91-108 (27.8 - 33%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian in Psychic Terrain: 111-132 (33.9 - 40.3%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

you can switch into scarf in a pinch, especially if it is threatening a moonblast and not a psychic stab.


252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 135-159 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian in Psychic Terrain: 166-196 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

dont switch this into specs lele because
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian in Psychic Terrain: 306-361 (93.5 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________




252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 126-149 (38.5 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam / Thunderbolt vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 159-187 (48.6 - 57.1%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO

knocked off
252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 97-115 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam / Thunderbolt vs. 112 HP / 228 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 122-144 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

tl;dr i agree on tornt not rising, i disagree with your perception on av tornt's viability/usefulness/reliability because it doesn't take into account what teams av tornt actually fits into and how they play with it.
also, boots uturn+taunt sets are underrated on spikestacks to maintain hazards up, prevent opposing hazards from going up and having a backup strat vs other spikestacks if using defog as well. i figured they deserved to be mentioned.

 

[fruityiscool423]

Some more quick noms:
A- to A
this mon is very strong specs is broken scarf is a cool cleaner also seen some taunt sets on ladder which destroys fat teams entirely.

A- to A
I might be biased but it's ability to destroy any team that doesn't have zapdos is crazy.

B to B+
nido is really low in the vr atm,pretty solid rn imo destroys most of the teams cuz of low bliss and slowking usage.

C to B-
I feel like latios is really underexplored,it's specs set with draco psyshock mystical fire and surf is broken outspeeds kart which is important. can also run scarf sets to kill weav and as a rkiller/cleaner mainly.2hkos lele with specs psyshock.

 

[RedDiamond1024]

C to B-
I feel like latios is really underexplored,it's specs set with draco psyshock mystical fire and surf is broken outspeeds kart which is important. can also run scarf sets to kill weav and as a rkiller/cleaner mainly.2hkos lele with specs psyshock.

I agree with the latios nom, though when I use specs I prefer this moveset over what you have


Calamity (Latios) (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic
- Aura Sphere
- Trick

 

[fruityiscool423]

I agree with the latios nom, though when I use specs I prefer this moveset over what you have


Calamity (Latios) (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic
- Aura Sphere
- Trick

but that set really struggles vs corv and sciz although that's a good pick too

 

[Mr.Goxel]

I can tell you some drawbacks to Lando-T:

-Intimidate not being that useful

Most physical Attackers don't care about Landorus-T. Even 4 Attack Zeraora. Because all of them can Knock Off, putting it on a faster timer, or in many cases they can literally just Swords Dance again. If you go to Lando-T on the turn my Garchomp uses Swords Dance, I have good options.

Kartana, Urshifu, Weavile, Barraskewda, Melmetal, Rillaboom all don't really have to care as well.

This means

-Landorus is being a Fake Gliscor

Landorus-T has bad recovery. This is kinda just a fact. It works on teams in this meta because most people play games that run fast, if not, Landorus-T dies not that far into a game and might not even make that much progress. In fact, I'd say defensive oriented teams make Landorus-T a joke sometimes. Being able to stay in with Toxapex on these SpDef Landos, Knock Off or Scald it and put it on a timer, win Rocks wars and etc. and *still* have a Toxapex at the end of the day with Regenerator. That's the kind of things that make Lando-T, in my opinion, not good enough for S. It's not good in every match-up, just the most common ones. Primal Groudon in ORAS would be above average in essentially every single match.

-Landorus's options aren't that unique

The main thing that makes Lando-T good to slap at the end with a few offense boys is that it's a pivot with support moves, of course. But these support moves are already likely able to fit on your team in a lot of ways, already likely are, and in my honest opinion, the combination of them doesn't make them better. Having Stealth Rocks and U-Turn isn't that helpful when you're a slow Lando-T. If you're using Knock Off, they're likely going to something that beats Lando-T and U-Turn isn't great there. Landorus is also suffering from success somewhat—there are many options in the metagame to punish Lando's U-Turns, especially since with little investment, Earthquake barely chips Pokémon such as Ferrothorn. There's also Statics, Flame Bodys and as I said, Pokémon like Toxapex can literally just stay in. It's hard for it to threaten out Pokémon for U-Turn to be a big zinger. Stealth Rocks are good, indeed, yes. I'd find it great that Landorus-T has Stealth Rocks if not for it being one of the most common moves anyways.

In my opinion, Landorus-T is good. Really good. But the fact that most people play fast-paced teams often, in my opinion, makes people forget Landorus's very real flaws. It's safe, but also not that special? It's a stopgap. If your Landorus-T isn't dead 30-50 turns in, the opposing player is not playing their cards right or you're not using your Landorus well enough. Because every time you throw it out, there is absolutely something that can cripple it.

Most of what is being said here I disagree with, and would argue is blatantly wrong.

To be clear: I am not taking a stance on whether Landorus-Therian should rise or not, simply that the reasons provided in the above post are not suitable for an argument that it should not rise.

To make the claim that Intimidate is not useful you should demonstrate that Landorus-Therian putting physical attackers at -1 on switch-in is not useful, which you have not done. Let's go through your examples:

Zeraora you claim can just knock off Landorus-Therian, putting it on a timer. Sure, but even a defensive Landorus-Therian set threatens a 1HKO against Zeraora:

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 378-446 (119.2 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So yeah, you have put Landorus-Therian on a "timer..." you are now also fighting a 5v6, so Landorus has already contributed its value. To your other point, Zeraora cannot learn swords dance, and even if it could, Landorus-Therian will 1 shot it after swords dancing again. You do not have "good options" if someone switches a physically defensive Landorus-Therian into a Garchomp that swords dances; even a +1 Garchomp pose little to no threat to a Landorus-Therian:

+1 252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 156-189 (40.8 - 49.4%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

As for Landorus:

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 234-276 (65.5 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And this is getting really deep into theory crafting here, but for the sake of your argument let us pretend that Garchomp swords dances again on a Landorus-Therian after switch in, so Garchomp is at +3. Well that Garchomp is now at ~50% and requires at least a 4 hit Scale Shot to have a chance of a 1HKO. So the odds are not in the Garchomp player's favour here:

+3 252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (4 hits) vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 340-408 (89 - 106.8%) -- approx. 18.8% chance to OHKO

Kartana is a little bit more weird but same thing applies here, Even if it is +1, Landorus-Therian can switch in, do ~50% of its HP with Earthquake, and leave it for some revenge killer to finish off, so Landorus-Therian in your swords dance scenario has once again prevented a sweep. As for Melmetal, Landorus-Therian walls the shit out of it unless it runs Ice Punch:

-1 252+ Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 156-186 (40.8 - 48.6%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Landorus-Therian then out-speeds and threatens 2HKO with Earthquake:

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 218-260 (51.7 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As for Urshifu, Weavile, Barraskewda and Rillaboom, Landorus-Therian should not be acting as your switch-in to these Pokemon, and if it is, that is poor team building. On Smogon's official page for these Pokemon Landorus-Therian is not listed as a check/counter for a reason.

Your Toxapex example is once again just incorrect. Landorus-Therian can 2HKO Toxapex unless it gets lucky and burns it with Scald, which some people do not even run on Toxapex these days. Toxapex is not winning any rocks wars with Landorus-Therian because Landorus will just kill the Pex if it tries to switch in and annoy it. Landorus-Therian is not there to check Ferrothorn, of course it is not going to beat every Pokemon in the tier and some will be able to switch into its Earthquake. Primal-Groudon had similar switch ins like Lugia, Zygarde, Arceus-Ground etc.

Unless a team is built to counter Landorus-Therian, it will always be useful in every match, that is why it is S. You say that defensive oriented teams make Landorus-Therian a joke, but this is simply untrue. Swords Dance Landorus-Therian is an extremely strong breaker that tears apart many of the typical defensive cores we see, like the tried and true Ferrothorn+Toxapex core, Corviknight+Clefable so on and so forth.

Your concluding point that Landorus-Therian is not unique is simply wrong. A rock setter that can threaten many Pokemon, whilst posing as a U-turn user, and physical wall is extremely rare, especially one that is immune to Ground and Electric types whilst not having a rocks weakness. Not to mention that same mon can be a breaker, and its not especially easy to tell at team preview which it is. This is without even mentioning many of the other stets Landorus-Therian can run. No mon in the tier can act as a defensive/offensive glue so well as Landorus-Therian, and that is why it sits alone in S tier, so it is absolutely unique.

 

[Finchinator]

Shooting for a quick update in the next 2-3 days before the Charity Bowl. Not closing thread, but letting you guys know to set the expectation

 

[Finchinator]

also fuecoco GANG

 

[MANNAT]

Lando to S+

snip

Hi there, I just wanted to give my thoughts on something that has been bugging me for a while because I actually vehemently disagree with this!


Lando-T isn't as dominant as it used to be, no longer being untouchable as the sole S rank of OU. The recent influx of Buzzwole has put a bit of a stopper on more offensive sets, and utility sets like Defog + Toxic are really hampered by the increased pace of the current metagame. Due to Lando's recent "decline", we should delete the S- rank. Obviously Lando-T is still phenomenal and deserves to stay in S rank but it is not head and shoulders above the rest of the tier anymore.

With the S- rank abolished, where do I think we should place the Pokemon that previously occupied that rank?


Ferro has always been a top Pokemon in the metagame, but that it should reside in S rank. While it's an excellent spiker and overall great defensive Pokemon that checks a ton of stuff and can really annoy balanced and offensive teams alike, there are some metagame elements going against it. The recent rise of Buzzwole is sucks for Ferro, and Weavile have recently started to run Choice Band with Beat Up more often, which doesn't make contact, and this invalidates Ferro's traditional means of dealing with Weavile. That being said, Ferro is still extremely good and can give you some set flexibility on the rest of your team due to its relatively unique defensive attributes, and as such should reside in the A+ rank.


Heatran is the most difficult of these four for me to rank. On one hand, it is one of the most fearsome offensive breakers in the tier and has almost singlehandedly changed how we structure our teams to check fire types and even decides miscellaneous moveset decisions like Galarian Slowking's filler move. On the other hand, Heatran has an awkward defensive profile that prevents it from properly checking anything that it doesn't straight up stonewall in a way that Ferrothorn doesn't seem to struggle with nearly as much. Ultimately, I think that Heatran's unparalleled offensive consistency and ability to fill specific defensive niches have made it enough of a metagame defining force to have it be worthy of the S rank.


Anyone that teambuilds can tell you how much of an absolute migraine it can be to account for Weavile. It's an extremely consistent and adaptive Pokemon that can easily muscle past Pokemon that appear to be hard counters on paper such as Tapu Fini and Ferrothorn. The recent diversification in its set profile between sets like CB Beat Up, Low Kick, and the always consistent Boots make it nearly impossible to account for all of its sets. I oftentimes find myself building teams and thinking to myself "damn this gets smoked by Beat Up (or Low Kick) Weav". Not only is Weavile such an overwhelming offensive threat, but it actually has a ton of surprising defensive utility. Paired with pivots like Slowbro and Lando-T that can get it in against dragons like Dragonite and Garchomp allows it to function as a very effective way of keeping them in check for more offensive teams. Additionally, its typing allows it to serve as a Shadow Ball deterrent against Dragapult in particular, as it can pivot into Shadow Ball and use it as an opportunity to start breaking. I haven't even mentioned just how many things it can keep in check with its speed stat and power in trade-centric games. This slew of incredible attributes has launched Weavile to be more than worthy of S rank in my eyes, and I frankly see little argument against it.

 

[ant4456]

Hi there, I just wanted to give my thoughts on something that has been bugging me for a while because I actually vehemently disagree with this!


Lando-T isn't as dominant as it used to be, no longer being untouchable as the sole S rank of OU. The recent influx of Buzzwole has put a bit of a stopper on more offensive sets, and utility sets like Defog + Toxic are really hampered by the increased pace of the current metagame. Due to Lando's recent "decline", we should delete the S- rank. Obviously Lando-T is still phenomenal and deserves to stay in S rank but it is not head and shoulders above the rest of the tier anymore.

With the S- rank abolished, where do I think we should place the Pokemon that previously occupied that rank?


Ferro has always been a top Pokemon in the metagame, but that it should reside in S rank. While it's an excellent spiker and overall great defensive Pokemon that checks a ton of stuff and can really annoy balanced and offensive teams alike, there are some metagame elements going against it. The recent rise of Buzzwole is sucks for Ferro, and Weavile have recently started to run Choice Band with Beat Up more often, which doesn't make contact, and this invalidates Ferro's traditional means of dealing with Weavile. That being said, Ferro is still extremely good and can give you some set flexibility on the rest of your team due to its relatively unique defensive attributes, and as such should reside in the A+ rank.


Heatran is the most difficult of these four for me to rank. On one hand, it is one of the most fearsome offensive breakers in the tier and has almost singlehandedly changed how we structure our teams to check fire types and even decides miscellaneous moveset decisions like Galarian Slowking's filler move. On the other hand, Heatran has an awkward defensive profile that prevents it from properly checking anything that it doesn't straight up stonewall in a way that Ferrothorn doesn't seem to struggle with nearly as much. Ultimately, I think that Heatran's unparalleled offensive consistency and ability to fill specific defensive niches have made it enough of a metagame defining force to have it be worthy of the S rank.


Anyone that teambuilds can tell you how much of an absolute migraine it can be to account for Weavile. It's an extremely consistent and adaptive Pokemon that can easily muscle past Pokemon that appear to be hard counters on paper such as Tapu Fini and Ferrothorn. The recent diversification in its set profile between sets like CB Beat Up, Low Kick, and the always consistent Boots make it nearly impossible to account for all of its sets. I oftentimes find myself building teams and thinking to myself "damn this gets smoked by Beat Up (or Low Kick) Weav". Not only is Weavile such an overwhelming offensive threat, but it actually has a ton of surprising defensive utility. Paired with pivots like Slowbro and Lando-T that can get it in against dragons like Dragonite and Garchomp allows it to function as a very effective way of keeping them in check for more offensive teams. Additionally, its typing allows it to serve as a Shadow Ball deterrent against Dragapult in particular, as it can pivot into Shadow Ball and use it as an opportunity to start breaking. I haven't even mentioned just how many things it can keep in check with its speed stat and power in trade-centric games. This slew of incredible attributes has launched Weavile to be more than worthy of S rank in my eyes, and I frankly see little argument against it.

The moment I knew Weavile was goated was when I used SD and brought down a Tapu Fini thinking "yeah I'm gonna lose the game" lol

Heatran is socially acceptable trapping that really can control the game for a few turns any time it gets in, very good rocker, has a type that leaves many Pokemon using moves that they don't like to use to beat it, and it's still great. Shed Shell Pex being a thing (though also for Fini), absolutely amazing Pokemon in this meta

Ferrothorn is surprisingly good for a mix-up in my opinion, always keeps offensive Pokemon on its toes by simply being on the opposing team, and it's rare it doesn't get at least one free turn, if not many. With how popular Lando is, defensive is also nice for Ferro, Leech it, can at least little it down and probably kill Lando over time if you got rid of the Lefties with Knock; etc.

goated mon as well

 

[airfare]

i agree with the sentiment above. i can attest that lando feels less necessary than ever these days: while it's still very useful for its utility in hazards/removal and slow pivoting, the only defensive role it really has anymore is as a buffer to electrics and physical attackers with intimidate. with teammates that can address these pokemon, teams have more freedom in working with that extra team slot. some of the immediate drawbacks of using lando are that almost all of the dominant breakers besides zera and garchomp all smack it, it struggles to weigh defogging vs keeping momentum due to the omnipresent offensive heatran, and is often a predictable or scripted answer to what it can check, easily taken advantage of by aggressive play. tldr: it's harmed by the pace of the more offensive metagame, as well as more reliable rocking in heatran.

just for a little context, here are two teams with multiple SPL uses which drop lando (or any other ground-type) altogether in favor of a defensive core using multiple strong checks to the grounds and electrics that lando often checks: buzzwole, clef, ferro, and zeraora are on both of these teams for a reason

i think deleting the s- tier is an interesting idea - it would probably require some more deliberation to determine which mons to keep in S or drop to A+, but i agree with mannat's assessment of the mons he mentioned, and that lando is no longer in its own tier compared to the rest of OU

 

[Kerthwack]

Oh cool shedinja jumped a ranking, C- to C. I don't know when this was but i'm guessing when it was popular on stall teams. Was? Is? I'm not sure.
Anyway more love for the boog

 

[Finchinator]

We decided to have a quick shift before the upcoming Charity Bowl (which you should 100% check out). The following changes are being made:

• from A to A+: Koko has been a great pivot all generation, but recently it has been seeing usage with Toxic, Volt Switch, and Calm Mind more to give it some different variants while teams have been focusing even more on chipping down Landorus-T and Ferrothorn. This has made Tapu Koko great at controlling the tempo and forcing specific lines of defensive play, which teammates can abuse and open up for it to clean later on. It also is a nice check to Tornadus-Therian as well.
• from B to B+: Slowking has always been viable, but recently we have seen it pick-up in usage compared to Slowbro a bit as it's great against Heatran and can pivot against Hurricane Tornadus-Therian, Slowking-Galar, and Tapu Lele with more certainty.
• from B+ to B: Bisharp's CB Beat Up set kept it up in viability for a bit, but we see Weavile do that far more often nowadays and the Swords Dance variant is pretty limited. For now, it drops a little because of this.
• from B+ to B: Blissey is a great special blanket check, but with the uptick in item displacement, Taunt, and physically offensive threats in an aggressive tier, it finds itself lagging behind the curve.

This is all for now. A regular update will still occur in the future!

 

[Finchinator]

Yo Buzzwole is A- now too mb I forgot

if you wanna know why then just scroll down the list of A rank physical attackers. if you still wanna know why then feel free to pm me though and I’ll elaborate, working rn ;-;

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Hydreigon not A+ Tier, biased leader smh

So... moltres-g and nihilego have been seeing a lot of success lately and im just wondering why they have no risen to A- especially since volcanion is there to and nihilego are both mainly used on one archetype being HO and see good usage in tours and high ladder

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

B -> B+ or -A

I think from that most recent mini-tier shift, some usage in spl and blissey falling down the drain more, and more. this this thing reeaaally needs to rise, it beats almost everything thats common in OU except for AV-torn and weavile so i really think it deserves it more than ever now, with it now carrying tbolt over flamethrower to nail slowking since ferro is mostly physdef and gets destroyed by earth power, there really isnt many checks

 

[Smashburn]

Has Nidoking received any consideration for B+? It is already among the best of the B Rank, and has benefited from recent trends. I think it is worthy of at least contending for a rise. Likewise, has anything currently in the B Rank received any consideration for a drop (aside from what recently entered the subrank)?

[PS]

Sorry, had this typed before.