Deoxys - E : Broadening of the metagame?

the list of total counters for garchomp is ALOT shorter that this,

lets see

cressy
bronzong (will not like switching in on F blast)
skarm (will not like switching in on F blast)
urm..... thats it.

Hahaha, what about Pellipper, Articuno, Tangrowth, Suicune, Slowbro, Mesprit, Celebi, Gyarados, Gliscor, or Hippowdon? I agree that Garchomp is pretty tough to counter, but its counter list is much broader than three Pokemon. (Though admittedly, a couple of those need HP Ice to counter)

and try specs mence
blissey
chansey

Specsmence, however, is locked into a single move, so you can outpredict it and force it out. Like on my old team, send in Bastiodon on the Draco Meteor, then send Poliwrath against the Hydro Pump that would come next, Substitute and Belly Drum on the switch, sweep.

mosty other sp. walls are 2kod by specs metior (or regice to F thrower), steels die to F thrower and some carry EQ for heatran.
i have 2koed tentecrewls, milotics, and many other pokes.

Lyfsaho said:
Spiritomb is not the only 100% couner to speed deoxys. Standard jirachi and standard Bronzong both deal with it very comfortably.

I run Hidden Power Fire specifically for the Steel/Psychics. It only 2HKO's Metagross, but still prevents Jirachi and Bronzong from coming in for free every time. Plus, it forces Jirachi to use Wish, so I simply send in something that capitalizes on this free switch.
 
Hahaha, what about Pellipper, Articuno, Tangrowth Suicune, Slowbro, Mesprit, Celebi, Gyarados, Gliscor, or Hippowdon? I agree that Garchomp is pretty tough to counter, but its counter list is much broader than three Pokemon. (Though admittedly, a couple of those need HP Ice to counter)
None of those besides Hippowdon counter CBChomp, and Hippo loses to SD versions
 
None of those besides Hippowdon counter CBChomp, and Hippo loses to SD versions
Why doesn't Gyarados counter CBChomp? It takes around 33% from CB Dragon Claw from my experience, and I don't believe Stone Edge is a standard move on CBChomp (correct me if I'm wrong). This means that Articuno comes in comfortably as well. And Gliscor doesn't have many troubles, being immune to Earthquake and having Roost, Tangrowth only hates Fire Blast (Fire Fang is a 4HKO), and the same goes for Celebi.

Plus, CBChomp falls under the same category as Specsmence, "outpredict it and send in resistance/immunity while it switches".
 
I use deoxys-e. It's completely broken. anytime I come in on something and take less than 40%, i kill something almost everytime, I just psycho boost like mad and if blissey comes in its koed by superpower most of the time, all the time with SR. To me its way to broken IMO.

Why doesn't Gyarados counter CBChomp? It takes around 33% from CB Dragon Claw from my experience, and I don't believe Stone Edge is a standard move on CBChomp (correct me if I'm wrong). This means that Articuno comes in comfortably as well. And Gliscor doesn't have many troubles, being immune to Earthquake and having Roost, Tangrowth only hates Fire Blast (Fire Fang is a 4HKO), and the same goes for Celebi.

Plus, CBChomp falls under the same category as Specsmence, "outpredict it and send in resistance/immunity while it switches".

you are right, CBchomp isnt even that standard. but a lot of people use this

garchomp@CB/lo
{adamant}
-EQ
-dragon claw
-fire blast / fang (fang only being there due to no lif orb and a CB)
-stone edge / crunch / outrage / swords dance
 
I know there is a vote going on in another thread, and by no means do I wish this to replace the other one, I wish rather to complement it. Keep voting on the issue on the other one- I only create this because there has been some drifting into less relevant issues on the matter recently and I want to get the discussion back on track.

Now, if allowed in OU permanently, the most common Deoxys-E set will predictably quickly become as follows:

Deoxys @ Life Orb
Rash / Mild - Pressure
252 Atk, 212 Sp.Atk, 40 Speed
- Superpower
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball / Psycho Boost

First of all, why not run a +speed nature with 184 Atk / 252 SpAtk / 72 Speed? You'll outspeed Scarfchomp for the sacrifice of 17 attack (still 2HKO Blissey easily) and 17 SpAtk (which makes virtually no difference in damage calculations)

Anyways, while the things you listed all beat this particular set, what happens when your opponent ISN'T running this? Let's take a defensive Deoxys-E (like the one I posted in the other thread for example)

Deoxys-E @ Leftovers
Bold
252 HP / 64 Def / 156 SpDef / 36 Speed
Pressure
-Cosmic Power
-Recover
-Taunt
-Night Shade

After 1 Cosmic Power you have something like 375 or so in both defenses, after 2 Cosmic Powers, 510. Now here comes the cornerstone of this set: Taunt. Deoxys-E is the faster taunter in the game, obviously. This set outspeeds Scarf Heracross and anything slower. Taunt will force things to attack you, while you can simply Cosmic Power in the face of most of them. For example, a Adamant Garchomp's Outrage will become a 3HKO after 1 Cosmic Power, so you can easily Recover and Cosmic Power again, while draining Outrage's precious PP. Night Shade gives you reliable damage.

Now, for counters to the offensive Deoxys-E, you listed:
Lyfsaho said:
Cresselia
Jirachi
Bronzong
Spiritomb
Metagross

Cresselia: Taunt means it can't use Rest, Moonlight, Thunderwave, Sleep Talk, or any other support moves. Thanks to that, Deoxys-E can easily just 5 or 6HKO with Night Shade without a second thought. Slow, but effective.

Jirachi: Once again, no Calm Mind, Wish, or Protect. Jirachi again falls to Night Shade

Bronzong: See: Cresselia, Jirachi

Spiritomb: Spiritomb goes down much more easily, due to less HP, and lacking an immunity to Toxic Spikes.

Metagross: While Metagross gives this particular Deoxys-E more trouble than any other pokemon listed, unless it gets a bunch of attack raises with Meteor Mash before it's KO'd by Night Shade, Metagross isn't going to do much to this set.

Now, let's move on to a counter for this defensive set.

Heracross: CBCross will OHKO with Megahorn easily even after 3 Cosmic Powers, thanks to the Guts boost it will recieve from. The only way Deoxys-E has a chance of stopping this is running 252 HP / 252 Def, which greatly takes away from it's other abilitys.

Togekiss: Immune to Toxic Spikes and Night Shade, Togekiss can be Taunted, but Air Slash has a huge 32 PP, meaning Deoxys-E has a long time to stall before Togekiss starts stuggling.

Now, both of these sets are easily beaten with your first listed, attacking Deoxys-E. Heracross is outsped and OHKO'd by Psychic or Psycho Boost. Togekiss, puts up a better fight, but easily falls if Stealth Rock is in play.

This is the reason I think Deoxys-E is to good for OU. Your proposed
"counters" are all beaten by a defensive Deoxys-E, and my defensive "counters" are all beaten by a offensive set.
 
Psychics counter Deoxys-E well because I run the psycho boost variant. Shadow ball does shit to anything else, so anything with good Defensive stats (like milotic) can stall him out. Spiritomb is a counter, but just in the fact that any knucklehead senses a sucker punch from a mile away and gets a free switch. Dugtrio counters, but gives a free set up move to a teammate. The best counter for this thing really is prediction. Two moves lower his offensive stats... so after that he's kinda finished... Weavile or Mamoswine make good counters with Ice Shard if he has used Superpower already. And Steel types in general, especially the steel/psychic ones... laugh at all his attacks.

Steelix makes a great counter, and being a steelix user... I run +special defense and some special defense EVs because his defense is already 436 with none. Steelix can beat him one-on-one with EQ, or just explode on him.
 
Don't forget this gem:

Deoxys-S @ Leftovers/Focus Sash
252 HP/96 Spd/80 Def/80 Sdef -- Timid
Counter
Mirror Coat
Taunt
Recover

Every Deoxys-S set is beaten by something. If it had five moveslots it would be a lot more dangerous.
 
Don't forget this gem:

Deoxys-S @ Leftovers/Focus Sash
252 HP/96 Spd/80 Def/80 Sdef -- Timid
Counter
Mirror Coat
Taunt
Recover

Every Deoxys-S set is beaten by something. If it had five moveslots it would be a lot more dangerous.

Why are you running defense EV's on that? Counter / Mirror Coat work off of HP damage taken IIRC, so you need to lose as many HP as possible since Deoxys-E's max is 307. The most damage you'll deal to something is 612 HP worth of damage, and that's assuming you would've been OHKO'd and held on with your Focus Sash.
 
With Deoxys now in play, i'd like to see every other low uber be tested into OU (lati@s without Soul Dew, Ho-oH, Manaphy again, Mew, Regular Deoxys) just to see what happens. People can theorymon all day about how broken the above pokes are, but a lot of people thought speed Deoxys was broken too.
 
I'm predicting that this will be another common set:

Deoxys E
Lonely/Naughty/Mild
Focus Sash/Leftovers/Lum Berry

Torment
Pursuit
Ice Beam
Superpower/Focus Blast

Torment instead of Taunt so it can destroy Choice item holders, and it's fast enough to get the job done. I don't know if it has the defenses to take a Megahorn from a Heracross, a Shadow Ball from Gengar, or some other stuff like that, so that's why I'm assuming that a Focus Sash will be a good item for it. Then, unless the opponent is smart enough to attack again, you can Pursuit them to cause some damage. Deoxys E is the fastest Pokemon in the entire game, though, so you're bound to so at least some damage, unless the opponent has a Quick Attack move.

Focus Sash is there for one of those "in case you need it" moments; Leftovers so Deoxys E might be able to last a little longer; Lum Berry is there for when you're using Torment and the opponent tries to get wise.

I changed the natures to give Deoxys E's attacks some more sting, since he's fast enough as it is (he's the fastest Pokemon in the game, for crying out loud). Use Mild ONLY if you want to use Focus Blast.

Taunt is an option over Torment if your team direly needs it, and to destroy the uterly annoying standard Skarmory and other Pokemon trying to set up. I never saw the move Torment actually getting the reconition it deserves on any Pokemon here, so that's why it's here. Take THAT, Choice item holders!

Obviously, Ice Beam is there for the 600 base stat Dragons and has great type coverage, and Superpower is there to deal with Blissey, Tyranitar, and some other stuff like Weavile. Ice Beam is also very handy for flying types, to discourage Electivire to try and get a speed boost from a nonexistant Thunderbolt.

For the EVs, I'd say to put 252 evs into both attack stats, and put whatever's left in the speed stat.
 
I'm sorry, but standard special sponging Lanturn takes 77.06% - 90.77% from a single Psycho Boost. Thats even a possible OHKO with SR.

Yupp, and that's why I don't use the standard. I remember saying that I use a 252 HP/252 SDEF +Nature Lanturn, not the standard, so whatever.
 
I personally run a choice specs set, and it surprisingly isn't the star of my team... I think that if it could only run offensive sets, it would be OU, it truly isn't to hard to counter unless it runs a Taunt, Cosmic Power set, which is actually almost uncounterable in OU... I don't know where my opinion lies.
 
But you're running Focus Sash, so isn't that counter productive with EV's in Def / SpDef?

I actually run Lefties with this, Focus Sash is just an alternative. And sometimes it needs to throw back more than one attack, hence Recover.

And we are not testing Ho-oh for OU. Or Mew. Or Deoxys-RS. Manaphy's been done, Lati@s might make it.
 
Except that Mixmence is slow (270, 307 sometimes) while Deoxys-E outspeeds pretty much everything, so it can afford to make a mistake and pick the next attack, while Salamence often has to retreat.

Except that Mixmence has 400 attack and 350 Sp. Attack, compared to Deoxys 317/317.

Plus Mence has way better attack typing.
 
If this thing is let in, you might as well let Manaphy and Mew in too, considering Deoxys is more dangerous than both of them. Manaphy isn't that good without rain support and is certainly more predictable than Deoxys who is even hard to revenge kill thanks to his speed.
 
Except that Mixmence has 400 attack and 350 Sp. Attack, compared to Deoxys 317/317.

Plus Mence has way better attack typing.

Assuming Mixmence runs Brick Break / Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Roost and outspeeds Heracross, it gets 336 Atk and 350 SpAtk. Brick Break is only 75 BP, as compared to Superpowers 120 BP. Even with the attack drop, 2 Superpowers are stronger than 2 Brick Breaks when comparing Salamence and Deoxys-E. Other then that, Salamence gets Draco Meteor and Fire Blast. Draco Meteor will force a switch 1-2 turns after it's used. Deoxys-E on the other hand, gets Ice Beam / Thunderbolt as well as Psychic / Psycho Boost / Shadow Ball. Both are 95 power, 100 accuracy attacks that give superb type coverage. This is something else Deoxys-E gets over Salamence.

Stats are not nearly as important as move power when it comes to damage calculations.
 
I don't see why Wobbuffet is so out of the question. However, that's a different question for a different thread.

Let's first consider Deoxys-S's main forms of offense: Psycho Boost and Superpower. If it uses Superpower, that means it has -1 Attack and -1 Defense. I'll go over the -Def part first, because that's something I've seen mentioned. As soon as you use Superpower, those mediocre defenses (and virtually 0 resistances) become utter garbage. This means several Pokemon now have a OHKO on it, and it's particularly vulnerable to Pursuit (Metagross, anyone?).

The other part of Superpower is more often overlooked, but is likely more important. Superpower isn't Close Combat--you lose Attack. If you try to Superpower Blissey and they switch to a Fighting resist, you suddenly lost your 2HKO on Blissey. If you bring in Blissey on anything but Superpower, Deoxys-S can't safely stay in and go for the 2HKO, anyway. If Blissey uses Wish (with Protect) or Softboiled, you're in trouble because now you can't 2HKO. If it uses Toxic, you're suddenly losing HP to Life Orb, Toxic, and the possible Sandstorm, Stealth Rock, and the like. If it uses Counter, you're dead (which is obviously bad for you). If it uses Thunder Wave, Blissey is now faster and can heal, and your Deoxys-S might as well be dead (this is even worse than if Blissey used Counter, because it gets a turn to recover for free, as long as you don't stay in and Superpower CH).

The same problem applies to Psycho Boost, only magnified. You get -2 Special Attack, and this doesn't just affect Psycho Boost, it also hurts your HP Fire / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Shadow Ball. Once it uses Psycho Boost, the amount of counters multiplies. If it lacks Psycho Boost, it loses a major weapon in its arsenal.

There are also more counters than the Steel / Psychic types. Consider Celebi. With 239 Special Defense (12 EVs), it's 3HKOed by +Special Attack, 252 Special Attack EVs, Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam. Celebi, meanwhile, can Thunder Wave you, or, if it switches in on anything but Ice Beam / Shadow Ball, just use Leech Seed and stall. If it wants, it could spam Recover, because you are as likely to kill yourself with Life Orb as you are to get a CH (if Deoxys-S is at absolute max HP, it has a 51% chance to CH Celebi before it runs out of HP thanks to Life Orb. If I wanted, I could do the calculation to be the chance to CH or Freeze until it's in KO range from Celebi's U-turn or Grass Knot).

Blissey, as I mentioned above, can take on Deoxys-S with a bit of prediction. Cresselia can Thunder Wave or Calm Mind up. Any sort of Choice Deoxys-S is highly vulnerable to Pursuit (it's even worse off than Starmie, especially when you consider that its STAB move does 0 damage to the most common Pursuiters, barring Heracross, who can come in on anything but Deoxys-S's STAB move). Paralysis in general screws over Deoxys-S, taking away its one good stat. If it's burned, Superpower isn't so useful, and Toxic limits its staying power.

Bronzong, Metagross, and Jirachi do a good job of stopping it, too.

There's also another factor you are overlooking. Good luck switching Deoxys-S in. It has roughly the same defensive ability as Lucario, except you lose the nice resistances. It's like switching in Azelf, except you don't have Levitate. In other words, it's hard to bring in.

Mixmence, while being no doubt an outstanding pokemon, has more.. indirect flaws than Deoxys. Sure, it is slightly bulkier, especially with Intimidate, but then again, Deoxys was never meant to take a hit.

"Slightly" bulkier? It has useful resistances, Intimidate means it can switch in on actual physical attacks, and it even has an immunity to Ground. It's only "slightly" bulkier if Tyranitar is slightly bulkier than Weavile. Your bias is showing.

I don't see why it had to be even allowed in the first place. Sure, it might not be too good for the metagame (which is a lie, in my opinion), but what's the point in allowing it? What's the harm in banning it? After we've carved a solid team after the dust has settled on the metagame, we realize that our teams are fucked over by a new bullet on the threat list? Deoxys-E has few 100% counters, and is fast enough that unlike MixMence, you can't predict a Roost and send in Weavile to force it out. And unlike its fellow frail Psychic-types like Azelf, it can't be easily Pursuited, because the most common Pursuiters are hurt by its standard moves (Heracross, Weavile, Metagross, Tyranitar). The only true 100% counter is really Spiritomb, but what kind of Deoxys ISN'T 100% countered by Spiritomb?

Interesting you picked Azelf. Deoxys-S is almost identical to Azelf in its ability to take hits (just a fraction of a % different). Unlike Azelf, it doesn't have a trait that lets it come in on one type of move for free.

What's the point in allowing Garchomp? What's the harm in banning it? What's the point in allowing Blissey? What's the harm in banning it? How about Azelf? Skarmory? Weavile? Pineco? The default should be allowing Pokemon, not banning them. It seems to me that your real problem is that you'd have to change your team. The problem with that reasoning is twofold. First, any decent Pokemon would cause changes if it had been banned, and then were allowed. If Blissey were uber, and then was allowed now, you'd be complaining "My Specsmence isn't sweeping everything! Blissey is uber!". Second, eventually the metagame will shift such that your team likely will need changes, anyway.

If this thing is let in, you might as well let Manaphy and Mew in too, considering Deoxys is more dangerous than both of them. Manaphy isn't that good without rain support and is certainly more predictable than Deoxys who is even hard to revenge kill thanks to his speed.

Mew is far superior to Deoxys-S. Mew has high defensive stats, and it can Baton Pass Nasty Plots (it also has Hypnosis). Imagine the main threats from Togekiss, remove Paraflinch, add sleep and better attacking options, and give it more Defense. I'd also consider Manaphy to be superior to Deoxys-S. The only currently uber Pokemon that I believe to be worse than Deoxys-S is Wobbuffet.


If Deoxys-S were uber, then the top players would have Deoxys-S on their team, meaning it would have a very high weighted rating this rating period. In fact, I'd argue that if an OU Pokemon has a low weighted rating, it is virtually impossible for it to be uber. The reason for this is simple. If the Pokemon is uber, then players who use it will usually beat those who don't. Give a mediocre player a Groudon and he's almost certainly going to sweep even a good player's OU team. For this reason, players who use Deoxys-S will have higher ratings, on the average, than those who don't (ignoring the complete newbies here who'd use stuff like Psychic, Psycho Boost, Zen Headbutt, Dream Eater Deoxys-S or whatever). Moreover, the better players are more likely to recognize how powerful Deoxys-S is, and thus are likely to use it. All the top players will have it, and then all the really weak players will copy them. In other words, it will be shortly obvious that it is, in fact, deserving of being uber.

You can't have a centralizing force that no one uses.

This is not how Deoxys-S has played out, however. I have encountered very few of them. 3 of my Pokemon carry Paralysis moves, so the very few I've seen (I'm trying not to exaggerate here, but it's a pretty rare Pokemon...) haven't done much.

I'm going to take the time to explain why unbanned should be the default, and Pokemon should only be banned after it's known they ought to be, not the other way around. I just asserted it earlier, and here's my support.

If a Pokemon is deserving of being uber and it is put in ubers, then woohoo, we got it right. If a Pokemon is not deserving of being uber and isn't put in ubers, then woohoo we got it right. Both of these scenarios are irrelevant here. If a Pokemon should be uber and we let it in OU, then it becomes immediately apparent. If a Pokemon shouldn't be uber and we put it there anyway, then it's possible to never realize its 'proper' tier.
 
before anyone says I'll just taunt blissey before it T-waves me...what move precious moveslot are you gonna give up to fit taunt in?
 
I'd still rather fight a Manaphy than a Deoxys. Its moveset is completely predictable and at the end of the day it's just a stat boosting bulky water. When I send in a Deoxys counter, say my Cresselia, I cross my fingers that it's not the taunting/tanking version which owns all the attacking versions counters and vice versa. And unlike Manaphy, I can't even revenge kill Deoxys with a scarfer because it outruns almost all of them.

Togekiss has superior special defense than Mew for a trade off of less defense, one thunder waves and one sleeps, and they both BP nasty plots. Personally I think Togekiss is way more annoying than Mew with flinch hax, but maybe that's just me.

If Deoxys is tested, shouldn't at least one of these two also be tested? Manaphy at least seems way less uber than Deoxys-S.
 
Assuming Mixmence runs Brick Break / Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Roost and outspeeds Heracross, it gets 336 Atk and 350 SpAtk. Brick Break is only 75 BP, as compared to Superpowers 120 BP. Even with the attack drop, 2 Superpowers are stronger than 2 Brick Breaks when comparing Salamence and Deoxys-E. Other then that, Salamence gets Draco Meteor and Fire Blast. Draco Meteor will force a switch 1-2 turns after it's used. Deoxys-E on the other hand, gets Ice Beam / Thunderbolt as well as Psychic / Psycho Boost / Shadow Ball. Both are 95 power, 100 accuracy attacks that give superb type coverage. This is something else Deoxys-E gets over Salamence.

Stats are not nearly as important as move power when it comes to damage calculations.

What are you talking about?

Stats are equally important to BP. I don't know why you're even trying to defend Deoxys attacking vs. Salamence of all pokes. The only thing you should be addressing when you're comparing Mence to Deoxys is speed(which you decided to completely leave out).

And your BP argument makes no sense at all. The Standard Deoxys has at most a 210 BP move, Psycho Boost, which sucks ass in comparison to Draco Meteor. No Deoxys should carry Psychic, so the next best move would be Super Power which has the side effect of lower your attack AND defense, and 2 consecutive SPs does only 6% more than 2 consecutive Brick Breaks(this is with Standard MixMence, and Deoxys with enough attack to 2HKO Bliss). Deoxys then has BoltBeam, both 95 BP, while Mence carries Fire Blast and Dragon Claw, both 120 BP. So even if your claim that BP is more important attacking power(lol), Mence would still easily beat out Deoxys.
 
I'd still rather fight a Manaphy than a Deoxys. Its moveset is completely predictable and at the end of the day it's just a stat boosting bulky water. When I send in a Deoxys counter, say my Cresselia, I cross my fingers that it's not the taunting/tanking version which owns all the attacking versions counters and vice versa. And unlike Manaphy, I can't even revenge kill Deoxys with a scarfer because it outruns almost all of them.

Togekiss has superior special defense than Mew for a trade off of less defense, one thunder waves and one sleeps, and they both BP nasty plots. Personally I think Togekiss is way more annoying than Mew with flinch hax, but maybe that's just me.

If Deoxys is tested, shouldn't at least one of these two also be tested? Manaphy at least seems way less uber than Deoxys-S.

Manaphy is in the 600 club, is immune to status, has 100% recovery move, and can double its attack. I think you're definitely understating how good it is.
 
It's hard to sent in a Scarf Pokemon to revenge kill Manaphy because it has decent enough defenses to survive their hit and KO back.
 
Manaphy is in the 600 club, is immune to status, has 100% recovery move, and can double its attack. I think you're definitely understating how good it is.

It's not immune to status nor does it have a 100% recovery move without rain support which is in short supply in OU, unlike Ubers. So with a 1 turn set up it can have those things for 5-8 turns. Lots of Pokemon become dangerous with a turn of setup (NP Azelf, belly drummers, etc).

And there are other 600ers who can double their attack stat, one which starts at 130 base attack.

Edit: Just did some calcs, my Raikou can switch in on a Manaphy even if rain dance has already been set up and 1hko 252 hp versions with 100% accurate Thunder. If no rain dance, Raikou can live through 2 surfs (or 1 NP surf) and still 1 shot it. Most speedy electrics can do the same. My Sceptile can switch in on any attack, even an ice beam from modest 252 SA, and 1hko. And those are fragile sweepers, not walls..
 
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