Deoxys - E : Broadening of the metagame?

[obi]

The same is said about Deoxys-A. In other words, Deoxys-A is a piece of crap for not being immune to all forms of residual damage. While we're at it, might as well demote Mewtwo and non-Steel Arceus.

Unlike Deoxys-A, Deoxys-S can't stay in and OHKO everything. It needs to come in on something it can KO and hope it gets the switch right. If Deoxys-A gets the switch wrong, oh well, it can just use another move and almost be guaranteed to get a OHKO.

Probably because he was already tested in the first Smogon Wifi Tournament.

Early Wi-Fi is nothing like Shoddy one year later. And I've seen that test, I asked about it before, and I got linked to this one war story that everyone was saying "proves" it's broken. Looking at it objectively, it really didn't seem that bad. People were just confirming their bias that Wobbuffet is uber by seeing it on the winning team.

A poke named Cresselia another psychic 600 pokes which is defensively better than Deoxy LG is allowed in the game.The truth of matter almost anything that counters Cresse should counter deoxy LG.

Except that Deoxys-D gets Recover, Taunt, Superpower (for those annoying Pursuiters), Thunderbolt, Spikes, Knock Off... Worse stats and a generally worse trait doesn't mean the Pokemon is worse.

We have to go one Uber at a time here, people. Let's focus on Deo-E first; you can't have two test phases at the same time.

I'd say that's the best way to do it. Allow everything that's under consideration at once. You're allowed to reban things in stages. Imagine if Blissey and Salamence were banned. First we allow Salamence, and Specsmence kills everything (and Empoleon, Heatran, and the like aren't considered to be both good enough and reliable enough), so we decide to ban it. If we had just allowed it with Blissey, things might have turned out differently.

 

[Lyfsaho]

Yes, Sableye is indeed a good counter for the offensive deoxys sets (not so sure about the defensive ones).

The problem here lies that, as you stated, Sableye is an UU, and for good reason: He can do little else in the OU metagame. Anyone having Sableye on their OU team for the sole reason of countering Deoxys-e overcentralizes the metagame.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Yes, Sableye is indeed a good counter for the offensive deoxys sets (not so sure about the defensive ones).

The problem here lies that, as you stated, Sableye is an UU, and for good reason: He can do little else in the OU metagame. Anyone having Sableye on their OU team for the sole reason of countering Deoxys-e overcentralizes the metagame.

Magneton was OU in Advance solely because it was the perfect counter to Skarmory. No one is saying people need to use Sableye, there are other things that counter Deoxys-S. It was the same to Skarmory in ADV, Magneton was good against it and so is Sableye to Deoxys-S (not up to Magneton vs. Skarmory level, I admit). It's just a option worth having in mind.

Can someone that ever used Sableye in OU (Bologo?) tell me if it is dead weight until Deoxys-S appears?

 

[astrohawke]

So we are going to use sableye in our teams just to counter deoxys? Given deoxy's moveset a lot of things can counter it including stuff in UU like hypno and grumpig. The thing is, must we put these pokemon we normally would not use into our teams to beat it? Because that just centralizes the metagame which is something we don't need.

 

[Luck]

Except that Deoxys-D gets Recover, Taunt, Superpower (for those annoying Pursuiters), Thunderbolt, Spikes, Knock Off... Worse stats and a generally worse trait doesn't mean the Pokemon is worse.

I didn't say it was worse,I said Cresse is defensively better meaning when the counters in game like T-tar, Heracross,Drapion,etc hit it takes more damage. Functionally Deoxy LG is a better pokemon but the Same pokes that counter Cresse can deal with Deoxy LG.

 

[obi]

And if it weren't for Infernape, I wouldn't put Tentacruel on my team.

 

[Bologo]

Can someone that ever used Sableye in OU (Bologo?) tell me if it is dead weight until Deoxys-S appears?

Yeah, I've used Sableye in OU before.

It's actually not that bad though. It can screw a lot of stalling and walls with Taunt, Knock Off and Will-O-Wisp, and it can Recover quite effectively not being weak to anything.

It's quite hard to pull off a clean OHKO on it, since Sableye usually runs boatloads of defensive EVs and it switches in really easily with the 3 immunities.

I often give it Encore-support, and it can be a real nuisance for the opponent with Punishment and Knock Off on the same set, because if my Encorer catches a stat-upping move, Sableye can come in and then there's prediction needed to either use Punishment to get off a big hit, or Knock Off to hit the incoming switch-in.

Heh, if the opponent decides to stay in after they get Encored from Sableye's teammate, Mean Look + Punishment will get them in no time. Psych Up works too.

Will-O-Wisp is great on Sableye, since not only does it make the guy extra hard to kill, but he can stall even easier with Recover.

I think the set I used when I ran OU Sableye was Knock Off/Will-O-Wisp/Payback/Recover.

It has a great movepool, but obviously only 4 slots. The EVs are quite variable though, so this thing is a surprise no matter what.

 

[Lyfsaho]

On the Sableye matter:

1. The Magneton case was an ADV example, which does not apply in D/P anymore. I can assure you that while the primary reason for MAgnezone's popularity is the wayhe can destroy Skarmory, he does have other uses, unlike Sableye.

2. Sabeleye is your typical ghost, except the fact that its stats are just plain disgusting ALL around. His hp is a joke, his speed is laughable, and neither his defences or his offences go above average.

3. Conclusion = Yes, I can see it counter Deo, but its not a reason for him to stay in OU on its own.

4. Now, here comes something which may support the Sableye thesis: It counters Wobbuffet.

I'd say that's the best way to do it. Allow everything that's under consideration at once. You're allowed to reban things in stages. Imagine if Blissey and Salamence were banned. First we allow Salamence, and Specsmence kills everything (and Empoleon, Heatran, and the like aren't considered to be both good enough and reliable enough), so we decide to ban it. If we had just allowed it with Blissey, things might have turned out differently.

Hmm... that is an interesting argument, alright. When you think about it, a OU-metagame with Wobbuffet wouldn't even put Deoxys-E up for discussion in Ubers anymore, it would be solidly OU.

In that case... The ubers that would be even in the frame, I would say, are the speed and the defense form of Deoxys, Wobbuffet, Manaphy, and Mew.

 

[footballfanatic]

On the Sableye matter:

1. The Magneton case was an ADV example, which does not apply in D/P anymore. I can assure you that while the primary reason for MAgnezone's popularity is the wayhe can destroy Skarmory, he does have other uses, unlike Sableye.

2. Sabeleye is your typical ghost, except the fact that its stats are just plain disgusting ALL around. His hp is a joke, his speed is laughable, and neither his defences or his offences go above average.

3. Conclusion = Yes, I can see it counter Deo, but its not a reason for him to stay in OU on its own.

4. Now, here comes something which may support the Sableye thesis: It counters Wobbuffet.



Hmm... that is an interesting argument, alright. When you think about it, a OU-metagame with Wobbuffet wouldn't even put Deoxys-E up for discussion in Ubers anymore, it would be solidly OU.

In that case... The ubers that would be even in the frame, I would say, are the speed and the defense form of Deoxys, Wobbuffet, Manaphy, and Mew.

Deoxys-LG actually counters Deoxys-E very well.

That's a very good point Obi.

 

[Bologo]

Heh, all right, I agree with your statements about Sableye. Disgusting stats are a good way to put it, it only has the movepool and typing to have any sort of survival. :P

As for your list, I'd add Darkrai to that list, since it's not nearly as gamebreaking Deoxys-D or Deoxys-S IMO because of Sleep Clause, and that it's basically Gengar who gets higher defenses, but gets a Psychic immune, as opposed to Ground/Fighting/Normal immune, plus inability to be poisoned. Plus the inability to Explode. I could make a bigger rant about Darkrai, but I guess this is the Deoxys-S thread.

 

[Deucalion2]

Just been checking through this thread, and the Ubers which have been advoctated for OU so far are:

Mew
Wobbuffet
Ho-oh
Latias
Latios
Deoxys-N
Deoxys-S
Deoxys-D
Manaphy
Dakrai

If we were to follow Obi's ploicy of unbanning everything at once, and we simultaneously let all of these Pokemon into OU, I wonder what would happen?

 

[Lyfsaho]

Just been checking through this thread, and the Ubers which have been advoctated for OU so far are:

Mew
Wobbuffet
Ho-oh
Latias
Latios
Deoxys-N
Deoxys-S
Deoxys-D
Manaphy
Dakrai

If we were to follow Obi's ploicy of unbanning everything at once, and we simultaneously let all of these Pokemon into OU, I wonder what would happen?

Not necessarily.

Ho-oh, for instance, is solidly Uber, not least for the fact that Sacred Fire is a move that tears the conception of OU-the metagame apart.
Latios and Latias without Soul Dew are also pretty solidly uber.

The others... I'd agree with those.

 

[Raikou]

Darkrai is an uber Gengar with the speed of Weavile and a better sleep move. Add him to the list of solidly uber please. I play enough of those in random wifi and they're a nightmare.

 

[Lyfsaho]

Darkrai is an uber Gengar with the speed of Weavile and a better sleep move. Add him to the list of solidly uber please. I play enough of those in random wifi and they're a nightmare.

You're quite wrong; He is, in fact, not an uber Gengar.
Gengar's infinitely superior typing and ability give him 6 resistances to work with, making him not hard at all to switch in for a top-OU sweeper. Darkrai gets 3, and to uncommon offensive types.

 

[footballfanatic]

Not necessarily.

Ho-oh, for instance, is solidly Uber, not least for the fact that Sacred Fire is a move that tears the conception of OU-the metagame apart.
Latios and Latias without Soul Dew are also pretty solidly uber.

The others... I'd agree with those.

I don't think you can call the Lati@s solidly Uber without Soul Dew. For one, they're completely stopped by Bliss and have have huge problems with Pursuiters(Weavile, T-tar, Metagross, etc.). The Steel/Psychic resist both its STAB.

Gets stopped by Cress too.

Latias in particular only has the same speed as Gengar, with lower Sp. Attack and is very susceptible on the physical side.

I think they should be tested as well, or at least Latias.

 

[AJC]

lati@s used calm mind+safeguard blissey can't do jack shit while they calm mind up and recover off the damage if blissey has ST

 

[Raikou]

You're quite wrong; He is, in fact, not an uber Gengar.
Gengar's infinitely superior typing and ability give him 6 resistances to work with, making him not hard at all to switch in for a top-OU sweeper. Darkrai gets 3, and to uncommon offensive types.

So I guess that makes Darkrai's better defensive and offensive stats, 80% sleep move off 383 speed and ability to CM null and void. He also has fewer weaknesses and doesn't need to suicide to kill Bliss with Focus Punch off decent attack.

And the argument against the Latis is that they're a stronger, faster Specsmence with other options than specs (Recover+CM) and no crippling x4 ice weakness, and look at how hard Specsmence is to counter. I will agree that they are more predictable than Mence, who can go physical and be almost as dangerous.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

So because Deoxys-E is not immune/resistant to most forms of residual damage and because Life Orb adds 10% to that wound, it's overrated?

For the fact that people are thinking it overcentralizes the metagame, hell fucking yes. Everyone is going apeshit with 'oh nos it'll sweep us there's no way to counter it, what are we ever going to fucking do, it can hit everything super effective. Right. It can't even take much shit. For everything else that isn't immune to that shit and kills itself with Life Orb, you don't see people going ape shit over Salamence or Infernape, now do you? So in short, that does in fact make Deoxys-E overrated.

The same is said about Deoxys-A. In other words, Deoxys-A is a piece of crap for not being immune to all forms of residual damage. While we're at it, might as well demote Mewtwo and non-Steel Arceus.

This is also completely ignoring the fact that you have access to Recover, and Deoxys-S can be EV'd to survive weaker hits (like Weavile's Pursuit).

Don't be an idiot. Deoxys-E does one thing that people are claiming it to be dominate, which is Revenge killing, which means it needs Life Orb for the extra punch. Now if you're going to be ignorant and suggest it can be EV'd to Recover off damage, then it is no longer doing the thing it does best, which means it is, in fact, OVERFUCKINGRATED.

Not to mention, those other Ubers actually can do other things that can centralize the metagame in many many ways. Deoxys-E is just a glorified Electivire.

 

[Lyfsaho]

So I guess that makes Darkrai's better defensive and offensive stats, 80% sleep move off 383 speed and ability to CM null and void. He also has fewer weaknesses.

And the argument against the Latis is that they're a stronger, faster Specsmence with other options than specs (Recover+CM), and look at how hard Specsmence is to counter.

I didn't say that. Fact is, you compared them both, and while Gengar can be brought in easily, Darkrai just can't, since most neutral strong moves can 2ko him.

yes, 383 speed with a 80% sleep move is awesome, but a) thats as much accuracy as hydro pump has, and that misses all the time and b) there's this little thing called sleep clause.

Anyway, I'm not too certain about Darkrai in OU consideration, I'm just pointing out that he isn't just a better gengar.

 

[Raikou]

Neutral strong moves can 1hko Gengar. You're right, he's not just a better Gengar, he's better than most things in OU. Gengar just came to mind as being a good comparison, like Specsmence is to the Latis to a degree.

And unless that Hydro Pump is a 1hko, it's not as devastating to the team as having 1 Poke out of commission for the whole match while giving Darkrai a free Sub, CM and/or Focus Punch.

 

[footballfanatic]

lati@s used calm mind+safeguard blissey can't do jack shit while they calm mind up and recover off the damage if blissey has ST

So you're suggesting that Lati@s will run a set of: Calm Mind / Safeguard / Recover / Attack

That's incredibly easy to counter, plus Bliss will just start running Psych up like they do in Ubers and steal all those Calm Minds.

And the argument against the Latis is that they're a stronger, faster Specsmence with other options than specs (Recover+CM) and no crippling x4 ice weakness, and look at how hard Specsmence is to counter. I will agree that they are more predictable than Mence, who can go physical and be almost as dangerous.

1. Latios is stronger than Specsmence, but Latias isn't . Assuming you go for Modest on Latias to match Mence's Sp. Attack, the Max Speed you can get is 319. The only thing you outspeed with 319 that Mence's 299 speed doesn't is Garchomp.

2. Yeah, Specsti@s is really hard to counter. *Switches in Bliss*. Damn, that was hard.

Lati@s can't DD, has a worse ability, possible worse typing(although that is debatable), worse HP, same defense, and can't threaten from the Physical side.

The only thing Latias beats it in is Sp. Defense and Speed(which I already touched on...Modest Latias is in a huge dead zone of speed).

They might be Uber, I'm not saying anything either way, but to say they're clearly Uber is just ignorant.

 

[Raikou]

So you're suggesting that Lati@s will run a set of: Calm Mind / Safeguard / Recover / Attack

That's incredibly easy to counter, plus Bliss will just start running Psych up like they do in Ubers and steal all those Calm Minds.




1. Latios is stronger than Specsmence, but Latias isn't . Assuming you go for Modest on Latias to match Mence's Sp. Attack, the Max Speed you can get is 319. The only thing you outspeed with 319 that Mence's 299 speed doesn't is Garchomp.

2. Yeah, Specsti@s is really hard to counter. *Switches in Bliss*. Damn, that was hard.

Lati@s can't DD, has a worse ability, possible worse typing(although that is debatable), worse HP, same defense, and can't threaten from the Physical side.

The only thing Latias beats it in is Sp. Defense and Speed(which I already touched on...Modest Latias is in a huge dead zone of speed).

They might be Uber, I'm not saying anything either way, but to say they're clearly Uber is just ignorant.

Latios can DD and has decent attack, actually. He could run a mixed set well enough. And that they have worse typing is dabatable, as they can hardly be killed in 1 hit by anything special and have no SR weakness like mence.

While Blissey still counters Specs Latios/Latias, the list of other pokes that counter them is thinner than those which counter Specsmence. Not a good thing to make Blissey even more necessary, but they're probably less uber than some of the things other people have suggested. I wouldn't mind putting my perfect SA/Spd Latios on my team. :)

 

[footballfanatic]

Latios can DD and has decent attack, actually. He could run a mixed set well enough. And that they have worse typing is dabatable, as they can hardly be killed in 1 hit by anything special and have no SR weakness like mence.

While Blissey still counters Specs Latios/Latias, the list of other pokes that counter them is thinner than those which counter Specsmence. Not a good thing to make Blissey even more necessary, but they're probably less uber than some of the things other people have suggested. I wouldn't mind putting my perfect SA/Spd Latios on my team. :)

Ah, I was looking at the Latias page and didn't see DD so I assumed neither could, my bad. And 306 Attack is mediocre in every sense of the word and it gets completely blown out of the water by Mences attack. Like I said, while they can take special hits, they're incredibly vulnerable from the Physical side which means Tyranitar can easily take them on(which can't be said for Mence).

I'd like to see your counter list for Specs Mence, then your counter list for Specsti@s because really, I think Mence's counter list might be shorter.

Any Steel can take on Lati@s because the best fire move it has access to is HP Fire, while Mence gets Fire Blast and Flamethrower.

I don't think Lati@s will affect the metagame at all because it's 2 best counters(Bliss and T-tar) are already in the top 5 of usage(Bliss being #1).

 

[Luck]

If you allow Lati@s think about the things coming along with it,Deoxy LG,Mew and Darkrai. Darkrai completely shutdowns the Lati@s,Mew can deal with them, Deoxy LG,Cressila,Blissey can slow them down or at worst t-wave them.

 

[Raikou]

Ah, I was looking at the Latias page and didn't see DD so I assumed neither could, my bad. And 306 Attack is mediocre in every sense of the word and it gets completely blown out of the water by Mences attack. Like I said, while they can take special hits, they're incredibly vulnerable from the Physical side which means Tyranitar can easily take them on(which can't be said for Mence).

I'd like to see your counter list for Specs Mence, then your counter list for Specsti@s because really, I think Mence's counter list might be shorter.

Any Steel can take on Lati@s because the best fire move it has access to is HP Fire, while Mence gets Fire Blast and Flamethrower.

I don't think Lati@s will affect the metagame at all because it's 2 best counters(Bliss and T-tar) are already in the top 5 of usage(Bliss being #1).

Tyranitar is 2hko'd by Draco Meteor in sandstorm, not a counter. Empoleon and calm Milotic can be thunderbolted (2 Specsmence counters), and Metagross is 2hko'd by thunderbolt but can come in on Draco Meteor or Ice Beam. Bronzong is a solid counter.

So they have different counters, with Blissey and calm Cresselia being about the only ones that overlap. If Deoxys is let in I see no reason not to test them as well as Manaphy and Mew, but I think people will react strongly against Specsmence on steroids.