Guts obstagoon can actually only run stabs and still do things because utility like trick parting shot and obstruct
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Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]
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Guts obstagoon can actually only run stabs and still do things because utility like trick parting shot and obstruct
Hi guys, this is my first Smogon post. I made my account here on Smogon itself two days ago but have used it and Showdown for quite a long time.
So I'm curious to find out why Weavile has been so much of a threat lately and what warrants its S- ranking, along with some arguing it should be higher than that. It does have a fantastic offensive presence with even some defensive stuff going for it, and in conjunction with HDB and SD is a great breaker and sweeper. However, most fairy types like Tapu Fini and A9 can handle it along with steel types (unless it runs low kick, but even then Corv could potentially check it, ohkoeing it with Body Press) and Toxapex can halt its sweep with haze, and knock off its boots. It can get rkilled by Shifu's Aqua Jet and numerous other coverage moves like Zeraora's Close Combat can pressure or ko it outright. With the metagame better adapting to handle it, shouldn't it get some reconsideration to its ranking? If I could be provided a response I would greatly appreciate it, thank you.
Also, while I have been lurking here in this thread for a considerate amount of time, please excuse me if I've made any mistakes with this question.
So I'm curious to find out why Weavile has been so much of a threat lately and what warrants its S- ranking, along with some arguing it should be higher than that. It does have a fantastic offensive presence with even some defensive stuff going for it, and in conjunction with HDB and SD is a great breaker and sweeper. However, most fairy types like Tapu Fini and A9 can handle it along with steel types (unless it runs low kick, but even then Corv could potentially check it, ohkoeing it with Body Press) and Toxapex can halt its sweep with haze, and knock off its boots. It can get rkilled by Shifu's Aqua Jet and numerous other coverage moves like Zeraora's Close Combat can pressure or ko it outright. With the metagame better adapting to handle it, shouldn't it get some reconsideration to its ranking? If I could be provided a response I would greatly appreciate it, thank you.
Also, while I have been lurking here in this thread for a considerate amount of time, please excuse me if I've made any mistakes with this question.
Aegislash - B -> B+
Aegislash is a decent Sp. Def tank and is the only reliable counter to Specs Tapu Lele.
It can find many opportunites to set up a sub because there aren't many pokemon that
can switch into a Toxic and take a Shadow Ball from it.
Aegislash benefits from the increasing usage of Weavile checks because the main two,
Toxapex and Buzzwole, cannot do much to it. Knock Off Toxapex isn't breaking a sub from
Aegislash at -1 and Buzzwole doesn't run Earthquake much and has a very low Sp. Def stat.
The only thing that they could do is PP stall it.
Aegislash doesn't require recovery because it can stretch out up to 4 turn of leftovers only using
King's Shield and Substitute. This sets it apart from Pokemon like Heatran and Tapu Fini
which switch in, takes damage, heals 6% and immediately forced out the next turn.
Because most people just go to something that can immediately force it out, you can almost
guarantee that you will be crippling something or chipping it down heavily if they lack recovery
as they have to take one turn to break that sub. Aegislash functions well with a teammate like
Sp. Def Hippowdon or maybe Mandibuzz as they check the other strong Special Attackers that
Aegislash loses to. Bisharp hard walls it but Close Combat could be run to bait and remove it.
Specs Aegislash is VERY powerful but I almost never use it lol
I also agree, a lot of teams pack a Weavile check and maybe even a backup to deal with it. Although it has those checks that you listed, it can overwhelm many of them. For me, it's still a S- threat but has a harder time sweeping now than before.
Aegislash is a decent Sp. Def tank and is the only reliable counter to Specs Tapu Lele.
It can find many opportunites to set up a sub because there aren't many pokemon that
can switch into a Toxic and take a Shadow Ball from it.
Aegislash benefits from the increasing usage of Weavile checks because the main two,
Toxapex and Buzzwole, cannot do much to it. Knock Off Toxapex isn't breaking a sub from
Aegislash at -1 and Buzzwole doesn't run Earthquake much and has a very low Sp. Def stat.
The only thing that they could do is PP stall it.
Aegislash doesn't require recovery because it can stretch out up to 4 turn of leftovers only using
King's Shield and Substitute. This sets it apart from Pokemon like Heatran and Tapu Fini
which switch in, takes damage, heals 6% and immediately forced out the next turn.
Because most people just go to something that can immediately force it out, you can almost
guarantee that you will be crippling something or chipping it down heavily if they lack recovery
as they have to take one turn to break that sub. Aegislash functions well with a teammate like
Sp. Def Hippowdon or maybe Mandibuzz as they check the other strong Special Attackers that
Aegislash loses to. Bisharp hard walls it but Close Combat could be run to bait and remove it.
Specs Aegislash is VERY powerful but I almost never use it lol
I also agree, a lot of teams pack a Weavile check and maybe even a backup to deal with it. Although it has those checks that you listed, it can overwhelm many of them. For me, it's still a S- threat but has a harder time sweeping now than before.
Choice band beat up on physical offence teams destroys pex and corv while fini doesn’t have a recovery move, so it gets worn down throughout a game fairly easily. This means that none of the mentioned defensive checks can reliably stop every set, meaning that they can’t reliably switch in if the weavile’s set hasn’t been revealed.
Urshifu needs at least 2 rounds of stealth rock in order to kill weavile with banded Aqua jet so you need to force that damage before revenge killing. You can also freely pivot into buzzwole or ferrothorn on urshifu’s Aqua jet in those cases. The same applies to zeroara with buzzwole or ferro on a predicted plasma fists/play rough.
Any check to weaville is not 100% safe, meaning that it is an immense threat an definitely deserves its S- ranking.
Urshifu needs at least 2 rounds of stealth rock in order to kill weavile with banded Aqua jet so you need to force that damage before revenge killing. You can also freely pivot into buzzwole or ferrothorn on urshifu’s Aqua jet in those cases. The same applies to zeroara with buzzwole or ferro on a predicted plasma fists/play rough.
Any check to weaville is not 100% safe, meaning that it is an immense threat an definitely deserves its S- ranking.
A Baneful Bunker from Toxapex could likely stifle Weavile in its tracks-and a Corviknight with Rocky Helmet will give it trouble as well. Besides, a choice banded beat up is just asking for a fighting type like shifu to check it. Also, checks aren't really meant to switch into things, that's for a counter right? I understand what you mean by aqua jet not rkoing, though. And I don't believe Weavile w/ Beat Up is that common.
Baneful Bunker isn't a common move doesn't deal with Weavile directly. It only servers as a buffer. Vs SD Weavile, you'd be better off using Haze, as you wont get 2HKO'd by Knock Off
Vs. Band Beat Up, Baneful Bunker won't do anything because it's non-contact. Weavile can Knock Off the helmet on the Corv.
Protect on the Weavile?
Baneful bunker will still work on Beat Up, it just won't poison. Also, Urshifu isn't taking a Beat Up.
Interesting-so even fighting type checks to it can be pressured? What about Buzzwole? It could definitely take a beat up and Ice stab I believe and to my memory it typically runs rocky helmet too I think; and it's not even a question that Buzz will murder Weavile with a close combat or leech life.
I'll test it out and get back to you
Edit: Buzzwole takes very little and so does Urshifu.
https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen8customgame-1619211742
https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen8customgame-1619213561
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(Wow, I've also now learned that you can make custom battles with Showdown. How cool-)
So in this case would it even be safe to say that they counter Weavile outrightly? Or just the two best checks to it?
Weavile is ranked highly because it's one of the hardest offensive threats to handle: it forces you to prepare for it specifically in the builder and even then still has plenty of ways to pressure its checks. Your examples, for instance: Toxapex can be 2HKOd by CB Beat Up and without Toxic or a timely Scald burn (or the rare Baneful Bunker) it can be run out of Haze PP by Pressure SD Weavile (not to mention how Toxapex tends to be an undesirable momentum sink on many teams), Tapu Fini and Urshifu don't appreciate their item getting removed and get worn down if they have to come in to check it repeatedly, Corviknight gets 2HKOd by CB and also can't handle SD if it has taken some chip damage, Buzzwole can be 2HKOd by CB Triple Axel, etc. Add in hazards and it gets even tougher to consistently answer.
"This Pokemon gets checked/countered by these Pokemon" usually isn't a good standalone argument anyway, because every threat has checks/counters and if it didn't, it would've been banned a long time ago.
Furthermore, Weavile has additional important utility: it can remove key items with Knock Off, it can revenge kill sweepers like Garchomp, Dragonite and Hawlucha with Ice Shard, and its rather uncommon Ghost resistance allows it to punish Ghosts like Dragapult locking into Shadow Ball.
I would like to refer discussions like this to the Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread in the future, as you should generally only post in this thread if you've got a sizable amount of experience in the tier/with these Pokemon and judging by these recent posts I sense a lack thereof (exception being if the VR hosts give you temporary permission to ask questions after a VR update).
"This Pokemon gets checked/countered by these Pokemon" usually isn't a good standalone argument anyway, because every threat has checks/counters and if it didn't, it would've been banned a long time ago.
Furthermore, Weavile has additional important utility: it can remove key items with Knock Off, it can revenge kill sweepers like Garchomp, Dragonite and Hawlucha with Ice Shard, and its rather uncommon Ghost resistance allows it to punish Ghosts like Dragapult locking into Shadow Ball.
I would like to refer discussions like this to the Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread in the future, as you should generally only post in this thread if you've got a sizable amount of experience in the tier/with these Pokemon and judging by these recent posts I sense a lack thereof (exception being if the VR hosts give you temporary permission to ask questions after a VR update).
I understand-thank you for your well detailed reply. I'll try to keep this in mind next time. As a matter of fact I've actually begun to be using Weavile on a team and am trying to see how good it really is, so yeah-
Also people still haven't mentioned future sight, spikes, and/or magnezone support which all completely invalidate one or more of these - future sight (from e.g. slowbro) makes it beat Buzzwole, pex, and urshifu, while helping vs fini. spikes helps vs basically everything but especially fini is the poster child due to it's lack of recovery, and magnezone deals with corvi/skarm/ferrothorn
Regieleki C+ -> B-/B
Personally I believe leki's speed tier is just way too valuable to overlook him atm, with the ability to revenge kill scarf kart and blacep for example as well as many non scarfed pokemon which still have boosts such as weavile and threaten torn-t which matters a lot in my opinion due to Torn's increase in usage. Of course the ground types are still a problem but the upsides are worth it.
Personally I believe leki's speed tier is just way too valuable to overlook him atm, with the ability to revenge kill scarf kart and blacep for example as well as many non scarfed pokemon which still have boosts such as weavile and threaten torn-t which matters a lot in my opinion due to Torn's increase in usage. Of course the ground types are still a problem but the upsides are worth it.
Some
carry ice shard so they can just kill 
if they have it. You’d have to reveal whether they have it or not or abuse the choice mechanic.The ubiquity of
and the prominence of other ground types like 
and 
, as well as other electric immunities like 
means that almost every team has an electric immunity, which really crippled I think it should rise to B- maybe
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I don't think the meta has shifted in a way that benefits Regieleki at all and think it could even drop to C tbh. It's not revenge killing much of anything with a mandatory volt resist on any serious opponent and the resurgence of the grounds with reliable recovery (mainly Gastrodon but Hippo is a little better than it used to be) means pressuring grounds is a lot more difficult for Eleki and its teammates. Just having it does put pressure on the grounds but it's not the only electric that does that lol
+2 252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 214-253 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Leki can revenge kill weavile. And yeah I can't dismiss the problem of ground types for Leki that won't change, as well as Zera. I feel like Eleki needs proper team support which is why he's been low for so long in the VRSome
The ubiquity of
I think it should rise to B- maybe
If the sweeper switches out Eleki has at least neutralised the threat meaning he's still at least done something
Trying to set up a sweep without a near-guaranteed way to outspeed a healthy Regieleki or remove it prior isn't a very good play
That is a good point.
I have also been thinking about regieleki and another point I would like to make is regieleki’s lack of defensive utility. While switch moves are very common, eleki can’t switch into anything apart from a passing breeze or a predicted status move. So while regieleki can check a lot of offensive threats, it can’t switch into them. This means that eleki’s teammates have to take damage to use a pivot move or a teammate has to be sacked. A B tier Pokemon needs to have defensive utility and regieleki does not have that.
In this context, I would say Neutralising a threat would be to knock it out. If you force it to switch there's always the opportunity for that threat to come back in later anyway.
My point was the sweeper wouldn't be on the field anymore.
Well B- would be more suitable, also Eleki does get Twave and spin so I think he has some defensive utility due to his speed.
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