Pokemon Scarlet & Violet - 18th Nov 2022! **OFFICIAL INFO ONLY**

What the heck are these fiery wisp things? I think for a while I wrote them off as autumn leaves or something but upon closer inspection that's clearly not what they are lol they too amorphous and glowy. Even if they were, why are they blowing around all over the map? Neither the Galar or BDSP Sinnoh maps had a comparable detail like this. I dunno bros, seems kinda sus.
Miraidon comes from a future where microbead pollutants have so densely saturated the sea, the particles have gone airborne. Vast clouds waft upon the land in grand jetstreams to choke out life in merciless gales of plastic. They have followed it through whatever time shenanigans got Miraidon from the future to the present, and will soon destroy life on earth as it has for that desolate future the motorcycle calls home.

I was also curious what those were. I noticed they were in the water's edge at first and thought they might be like the rock barriers we see sprayed across environments like Hoenn's routes. I then noticed they were also touching a lot of land and dropped that theory. My main suspicion is it's just a little artistic flare to the map and not actually present in any capacity in the actual game.

While typing this I also thought up that it might be like a hint as to where the boundaries of the map are or something and we're in a Simpsons movie-esc bubble with those particles materializing if we go to far, but that actually sounds just as insane as the microplastic gaff from the start of this post.
 
It's probably 18 ancient towers, there's just some that aren't visible for whatever reason. That's 1 per type, which would mean you need to do something with Tera types there. Unlock a specific type, fight a mon with a specific type, use a mon with a specific type, something like that.

Huh, I hadn't thought of Tera being like Z crystals, but that's a possibility. Something like "you can only terarize a pokemon if your Tera Orb has absorbed the power of their Tera type, so visit the ancient towers and touch the crystals within to gain that power". That would let GF lock the more powerful/weird/niche types in distant corners of the map, forcing the player to only Tera their starter for the first 2+hours.

On that note, I wonder if there is some sort of "wild boss" mon like Totems. Legends Arceus saw the return of Trial Captains as Wardens (their different names is entirely a localisation thing, their JP class is the exact same) so I can totally see something similar playing out here. Only thing that points against this is that for there to be 18 different mons to play out as tera tower bosses + 13 mons as league aces (gyms + elite4 + champion) + whatever bosses the third story progression has, that'd be a lot of mons filling the role as some story boss, and definitely way more than they've ever done for one single game, so I'm not sure how realistic of an expectation this is
 
Ice-types traditionally being late-game really boils down to the fact that Ice-types are, by nature, designed to best thrive in colder, snowy/icy conditions, and more often than not the icy/cold areas are accessible later in the game in almost every iteration of your standard Pokemon game.

Pokemon doing so really just follows textbook JRPG world design, as icy/snowy areas are almost always a late-game part of your traditional textbook RPG. A typical "RPG" adventure has you starting out in a more hospitable, human-friendly environment and exploring those kinds of environments first, with basic, down-to-earth and mundane enemies, and then less hospitable, harsher climates become areas that you explore later in the game, often these areas have stronger enemies and more "exotic", out-there, supernatural designs and powers.

An example would be that you hypothetically start out in a typical human-civilized village, and then your early areas you explore of the RPG's world are stuff like grasslands, forests, generic dark caves, and lakes and whatnot, and then as you head later into the game you start walking into deserts, treacherous mountains, snowy climates, and volcanic areas or dragon residences or something like that. Pokemon has traditionally largely conformed to this sort of world design, especially in past games where the overall intended progression was linear, and so as a result Ice-types tend to be found later and oftentimes have higher evolution levels as well, because the sort of environment they are designed to live in is something that is often only accessible in the later portions of the game.

*sigh*

Game Freak needs a trip to a cozy winter town where you can frolic in the snow and then go inside for cocoa. Snow and ice doesn't have to be dangerous and hostile. Route 1 could be a snowy route once, just once ... it wouldn't be dangerous.

At any rate, not more dangerous than any of the habitats they keep featuring earlier than the ice areas. Deserts, seafloor depths, poison swamps, the inside of active volcanoes ... naah, any three-badge newbie can walk through those. But if there's snow on the ground, it's end-game stuff by default. Sixth or seventh gym at the earliest, which means you might be able to use an Ice-type for the remaining two Gyms and the Elite Four, provided that 1) your team isn't fully filled out at that point already, and 2) the Ice-type in question is good enough to actually fight those opponents. They tend to be slow and defensive with severe movepool problems, so you might not want to use them even if you can.

SV being open world raises the possibility that you can go to the icy areas of Paldea earlier than in past games, but whether you can use actually viable Ice-types in-game remains to be seen.
Sadly, it looks like the icy areas will be pretty much the last place you get to go in this game too. The icy area in Paldea is on the diametrically opposite side of the region from the starting area, and from the map it looks like it will require 'raidon climbing at least to access. I'm not sure if you'd have that from the start (like in, say, BotW) or obtain it later (like in PLA), but I fear that a beeline for the icy areas might not be entirely viable.

Still, though, a beeline for the icy areas should really not be necessary to obtain Ice-types. You will find Fire-types in other places than volcanoes, and Electric-types aren't exclusive to power plants. Ghost-types aren't confined to haunted houses. Plenty of Pokémon of pretty much every type are found as grassland creatures, but Ice-types outside the designated icy area tend to be annoyingly rare. Of course, Ice-types in general are annoyingly rare.

And I believe there is a bit of a vicious cycle going on here. Icy areas are designated for the late-game by default by the developers. They need Ice-type Pokémon to populate them, for the look of the thing. That means Ice-type Pokémon are typically designed to match the level curve of late-game encounters, i.e. two-stage evolution families that evolve way past level 30. This level curve design make the Pokémon unsuitable to be placed in the early parts of subsequent games. Sure, Swinub has stats somewhere between those of Pidgey and Rattata, but as it evolves at level 33 you wouldn't want to have it on your team from Route 2 onward. It would fall behind the curve fast, and stay there for a long, long time. Furthermore, since recent generations introduce relatively few Pokémon, there's not enough room for Ice-types that don't match that late-game profile. And so, the available catalogue of Ice-types keeps being populated by designated late-game 'mons that wouldn't fit early-game areas. The problem is maintained and exacerbated by strict adherent to the same stupid limitations every time: Not enough new Ice-types to have some debut outside the icy area; no icy area before the sixth Gym or thereabout, requiring Ice-types to be tuned for the late-game; existing Ice-types are bogged down by availability restrictions or very late evolution; rinse and repeat every generation.

Not even the Dragon-type is being this badly restrained on such a consistent basis. And Dragon is an amazing typing, meant to be hard to get but with a high reward. Ice-types are hard to get and usually quite terrible, due to their lack of good physical moves/special stats, terribad Speed, multitude of weaknesses, and lack of coverage moves. It's really not a typing worth putting behind so many obstacles, every damn time.
 
*sigh*

Game Freak needs a trip to a cozy winter town where you can frolic in the snow and then go inside for cocoa. Snow and ice doesn't have to be dangerous and hostile. Route 1 could be a snowy route once, just once ... it wouldn't be dangerous.

At any rate, not more dangerous than any of the habitats they keep featuring earlier than the ice areas. Deserts, seafloor depths, poison swamps, the inside of active volcanoes ... naah, any three-badge newbie can walk through those. But if there's snow on the ground, it's end-game stuff by default. Sixth or seventh gym at the earliest, which means you might be able to use an Ice-type for the remaining two Gyms and the Elite Four, provided that 1) your team isn't fully filled out at that point already, and 2) the Ice-type in question is good enough to actually fight those opponents. They tend to be slow and defensive with severe movepool problems, so you might not want to use them even if you can.


Sadly, it looks like the icy areas will be pretty much the last place you get to go in this game too. The icy area in Paldea is on the diametrically opposite side of the region from the starting area, and from the map it looks like it will require 'raidon climbing at least to access. I'm not sure if you'd have that from the start (like in, say, BotW) or obtain it later (like in PLA), but I fear that a beeline for the icy areas might not be entirely viable.

Still, though, a beeline for the icy areas should really not be necessary to obtain Ice-types. You will find Fire-types in other places than volcanoes, and Electric-types aren't exclusive to power plants. Ghost-types aren't confined to haunted houses. Plenty of Pokémon of pretty much every type are found as grassland creatures, but Ice-types outside the designated icy area tend to be annoyingly rare. Of course, Ice-types in general are annoyingly rare.

And I believe there is a bit of a vicious cycle going on here. Icy areas are designated for the late-game by default by the developers. They need Ice-type Pokémon to populate them, for the look of the thing. That means Ice-type Pokémon are typically designed to match the level curve of late-game encounters, i.e. two-stage evolution families that evolve way past level 30. This level curve design make the Pokémon unsuitable to be placed in the early parts of subsequent games. Sure, Swinub has stats somewhere between those of Pidgey and Rattata, but as it evolves at level 33 you wouldn't want to have it on your team from Route 2 onward. It would fall behind the curve fast, and stay there for a long, long time. Furthermore, since recent generations introduce relatively few Pokémon, there's not enough room for Ice-types that don't match that late-game profile. And so, the available catalogue of Ice-types keeps being populated by designated late-game 'mons that wouldn't fit early-game areas. The problem is maintained and exacerbated by strict adherent to the same stupid limitations every time: Not enough new Ice-types to have some debut outside the icy area; no icy area before the sixth Gym or thereabout, requiring Ice-types to be tuned for the late-game; existing Ice-types are bogged down by availability restrictions or very late evolution; rinse and repeat every generation.

Not even the Dragon-type is being this badly restrained on such a consistent basis. And Dragon is an amazing typing, meant to be hard to get but with a high reward. Ice-types are hard to get and usually quite terrible, due to their lack of good physical moves/special stats, terribad Speed, multitude of weaknesses, and lack of coverage moves. It's really not a typing worth putting behind so many obstacles, every damn time.
Do you have a feeling that Game Freak never bothered to really fix all the problems with Ice-type just to spite those who criticized all of the Ice-type’s legitimate problems?
 
Do you have a feeling that Game Freak never bothered to really fix all the problems with Ice-type just to spite those who criticized all of the Ice-type’s legitimate problems?
I mean, if I'm going to be dropping conspiracy theories, I'm going to be blaming gen 4 Abomasnow:
  1. We know that when GF is paying attention to balance, it's always in a VGC context
  2. Hail saw some VGC usage in gen 4, where it was commonly used alongside Trick Room
  3. Therefore, ice-types being slow is a feature, because HailRoom is 'standard' practice.
It's not like needing two independant temporary field effects is untenable in competive Singles and unthinkable ingame, right?
 
Do you have a feeling that Game Freak never bothered to really fix all the problems with Ice-type just to spite those who criticized all of the Ice-type’s legitimate problems?
To be fair, they gave a solution to Ice being a terrible type for most Ice types. They let Ice types not be Ice types! :P


If that really is their solution, one, I WAS JOKING! Two, they really hate Ice types if their "solution" is only a gimmick for only one Gen.
 
Sure, Swinub has stats somewhere between those of Pidgey and Rattata, but as it evolves at level 33 you wouldn't want to have it on your team from Route 2 onward. It would fall behind the curve fast, and stay there for a long, long time.
I mean, as long as they either keep the Move Relearner in every Pokémon Center or PLA's ability to freely swap around your moves at any time, it's basically just a slightly better Magikarp that you have to keep around slightly longer. The modern Exp Share means carrying around a deadweight mon isn't as much of a pain as it used to be.

The bigger issue is that most Ice types are Pokémon that can't just be farting around in the wild, even ignoring climate issues, a large amount of the more recently added Ice types are Regional Forms that are basically relegated to gifts or transfer only (Alolan Vulpix/Ninetales, Alolan Sandshrew/Sandslash, Galarian Mr. Mime/Mr. Rime, Galarian Darumaka/Darmanitan, Hisuian Avalugg), are legendaries (Articuno, Regice, Kyurem, Glastrier/Calyrex IR), or are Fossil Pokémon (Amaura/Aurorus, Arctozolt/Arctovish).
Beyond that you've got:
  • Seel*/Dewgong
  • Shellder*/Cloyster
  • Lapras
  • Sneasel/Weavile
  • Smoochum/Jynx
  • Swinub/Piloswine/Mamoswine
  • Delibird
  • Snorunt/Glalie/Froslass
  • Spheal/Sealeo/Walrein
  • Snover/Abomasnow
  • Vanillite/Vanillish/Vanilluxe
  • Cubchoo/Beartic
  • Cryogonal
  • Bergmite/Avalugg
  • Crabrawler*/Crabominable
  • Eiscue
  • Snom/Frosmoth
*Not actually Ice yet.
 
It was nice that USUM put Seel & Smochum on the first island (& Shellder, technically). And...Delibird.

I think it is something they actually, beyond our jokes, think about as of late. We can still complain about how "good" the ice types given access to in general are but USUM did give access to them followed by the Wild Area having Snow from the start to get some. And even BDSP gave access to some in the Underground starting in gym 2.
Wouldn't surprise me if there were some ice types you could get without too much fuss in SV.
 
I mean, if I'm going to be dropping conspiracy theories, I'm going to be blaming gen 4 Abomasnow:
  1. We know that when GF is paying attention to balance, it's always in a VGC context
  2. Hail saw some VGC usage in gen 4, where it was commonly used alongside Trick Room
  3. Therefore, ice-types being slow is a feature, because HailRoom is 'standard' practice.
It's not like needing two independant temporary field effects is untenable in competive Singles and unthinkable ingame, right?
I didn’t know that composition!

Still, in-game balance is should be important too because nobody wants to went through trouble for a nearly-unusable Pokémon that tend to be rare. It’s been happening since the first and especially second generations, sadly.
 
Still, in-game balance is should be important too because nobody wants to went through trouble for a nearly-unusable Pokémon that tend to be rare. It’s been happening since the first and especially second generations, sadly.
The thing is, ultimately Pokemon is a collection game, and people will go out of their way to get the 1% spawn Eiscue not because it's a ice type but just for the checkmark.

Ice types sadly just happen to (very often) be late in the game which means that outside of rare cases they also end up having high evolution levels to make up for it. So getting, say, Swinub in route 1 would mean basically having Magikarp in your team for 30 lvls. Which sure, with exp share is less of a issue, but it's still annoying kinda like when you would carry the eggs you are given around to make them hatch.

See the Smoochum USUM case, yes you can get it pretty early (it's off the beaten path but not that much off), but it's like... garbage cause it just has too low stats and evolving it requires ages.

Realistically speaking, adding current ice types to early game is just unfeasible simply cause they were designed to be late game pokes so they have either high levels, barren move pools, annoying evolutionary conditions (see Sneasel), or just exist to fill a pokedex check.
On other hand designing new early game ice types could work... not happening, but would work.
 
This convo is a prime reminder of why Game Freak needs to rip off the band-aid already and start retconning evolution levels. It genuinely feels like something they want to do with how many late evolutions they've made available prematurely both for players and NPCs (e.g. the fixed Volcarona in BW2 and Hau's USUM Noibat evolving in the mid-30s) but they just never let themselves actually go through with it
 
The thing about using previously released Ice types is that I also find restrictions like giving their first forms exclusively for "early game" access to be incredibly arbitrary. Jynx for example is a mon I doubt would be that problematic to just encounter and capture as a Level 22 or so Wild Pokemon around the Gym 2-3 stretch, rather than going through the Baby stage and evolution. Shellder you could throw into most places with Water Encounters (Cloyster's Ice typing feels kind of arbitrary in terms of flavor and it's a Stone evolution anyway). Not to mention some other Ice-Secondary mons who could just be placed based on the other typing like Sneasel/Weavile or Lapras, or mons who you have no reason besides tradition to restrict evolution to so late for (Eevee to Glaceon could happen earlier if they just put the Ice Rock equivalent somewhere like the Driftveil freezer or made Ice Stones simple to get).

As for the Level Evo issue with some mid-30's mons or extremely late items, if GF is going to insist on not changing levels (look how much work it took for Gens 6 and 7 to do minor stat tweaks, and even then most of those probably manifested through Regional forms instead afterwards), then why not add alternatives or secondary options? Feebas had the Held Item method implemented to stand-in for Contest stats, but they kept both methods working when ORAS allowed Beauty Contest stats again to do the old means. I don't think too many individual items are good, but maybe something akin to the one-fits-many option in PoGo with the Stones

Why not add something like, I don't know, "Ultra Evolution Pills" (flavor of item needs work) that are available in incredibly scarce quantities until post-game, where they let a Pokemon evolve 5-10 levels earlier if held and then get consumed? That could even add a little bit of playthrough customization, where you can use a late evolution Pokemon sooner, but not too many at once without work due to the limited access. Or how about just adding existing methods via limited availability items, like Eevee can evolve into Espeon using a Sun Stone (uncommon earlygame without a sidetrack), OR by the friendship method if you don't have the item available?
 
Last edited:
Just gonna say that as far as "bad evolution levels" go 30 is nothing. Especially on a Pokemon like Smoochum, which sort of has the bare minimum to perform 65 speed, special defense, 85 special attack.
Like literally no one complained about Eelekid or Magby going through the same scenario in BW2! There's plenty of Pokemon that evolve around 30 that you get in the early game that can perform fine.


Please people, we don't need to exaggerate to make ice type stuff look worse than it already is
 
We know that when GF is paying attention to balance, it's always in a VGC context
Okay, that’s an exaggeration. Yeah GF mostly is concerned with VGC balance but they aren’t completely unconcerned with Singles: for example, they went to some lengths to prevent No Guard Fissure Machamp from existing, which would be a much stronger tactic in Singles than Doubles.

then again, Perish Song Mega Gengar exists, sooooooo
 
This convo is a prime reminder of why Game Freak needs to rip off the band-aid already and start retconning evolution levels. It genuinely feels like something they want to do with how many late evolutions they've made available prematurely both for players and NPCs (e.g. the fixed Volcarona in BW2 and Hau's USUM Noibat evolving in the mid-30s) but they just never let themselves actually go through with it
My hopes is them being "forced" to retcon evolution methods in gen 8, on a larger scale than the Feebas issue in gen 5, might get them to consider this more. Especially since they stuck to it in Legends Arceus (& BDSP) when they didn't need to.
 
Ok so was looking over the map again for reasons related to leaks that I can't post about and finally realized a really strange detail that I don't think I've seen anyone else discuss.

View attachment 445991
What the heck are these fiery wisp things? I think for a while I wrote them off as autumn leaves or something but upon closer inspection that's clearly not what they are lol they too amorphous and glowy. Even if they were, why are they blowing around all over the map? Neither the Galar or BDSP Sinnoh maps had a comparable detail like this. I dunno bros, seems kinda sus.
It looks like some rocks and islands. You can see that it makes a path on the south east beach to another location. Based on where Spain is geologically, GameFreak may have the post game area in the Illes Balears, but moved south a bit.
 
It looks like some rocks and islands. You can see that it makes a path on the south east beach to another location. Based on where Spain is geologically, GameFreak may have the post game area in the Illes Balears, but moved south a bit.
Nah they’re too orange and they’re on land too. Probably just some map decoration
 
My hopes is them being "forced" to retcon evolution methods in gen 8, on a larger scale than the Feebas issue in gen 5, might get them to consider this more. Especially since they stuck to it in Legends Arceus (& BDSP) when they didn't need to.
Coming back to this briefly, something I literally never noticed or saw mentioned before, was that Legends Arceus actually did change level evolutions for the starters so they became standardized with each other

NormalLegends
Rowlet17->3417->36
Cyndaquil14->3617->36
Oshawott17->3617->36
 
Just gonna say that as far as "bad evolution levels" go 30 is nothing. Especially on a Pokemon like Smoochum, which sort of has the bare minimum to perform 65 speed, special defense, 85 special attack.
Thing is, though: Smoochum's evolution level, at 30, is the lowest level at which any Ice-type evolves. The other level-up evolvers are all even later. And even those that don't evolve through level-up tend to use quite convuluted methods such as rare evolution items (the Ice Stone is generally treated equally as rare as Dusk/Dawn/Shiny Stone, instead of the more common Water/Fire/Leaf/Thunder Stone, and the less is said about the Razor Claw, the better), reaching high friendship after certain levels, or levelling up in a lategame area. Even when traded into the game as early as possible, there are few Ice-types you'd have a realistic chance of evolving early. I believe Snom is the sole exception, as it only requires high friendship and playing at the right time of day.

Fun fact, though, Fire would be in mostly the same situation if all the starters are disregarded. Houndour appears to be the earliest level-up evolution at 24, followed by Sizzlipede at 28. However, there are some 'mons that evolve into Fire-types earlier, like Rolycoly or Fletchling. But of course, there are also the starters. No such thing for Ice.

Like literally no one complained about Eelekid or Magby going through the same scenario in BW2! There's plenty of Pokemon that evolve around 30 that you get in the early game that can perform fine.
I don't think Smoochum gets the flak for being a bad ingame 'mon in itself, rather that it is a bit of a drag despite being the earliest Ice-type you can evolve. There literally aren't any other options that grow faster. Smoochum is so far the franchise's prime example of an early Ice-type, and it's a rather slow grower akin to the very late-game 'mons of other types.

And after all, at the end of Elekid and Magby's evolutionary families, you find Electivire and Magmortar, which are among the strongest non-legendary Pokémon of their types, and by raw stats among the strongest non-legendary, non-Mega Pokémon period. Evolve Smoochum and you get Jynx, which isn't a very bad Pokémon per se, but its BST is on par with Thievul and Chimecho. Starting late is great if the evolutionary family is late-game overall, but Jynx, well ... can't really say it's worth it to that same degree.
 
All I'm saying is "dragging" smoochum to level 30 isn't that outlandish, nor is Jynx an exceptionally bad pokemon in her own right even if she doesn't have a "third" evolution. Brigading on that aspect just feels bizarre to me, like it is nowhere near that bad to have it be a knock against anything.

Swinub to 33 also wasn't...terrible, per say, in BDSP. Though that helped by finding one with an egg move.


Seel is honestly the one to really tut tut at. but it can be in the bin with slowpoke.
 
Seel is honestly the one to really tut tut at. but it can be in the bin with slowpoke.

Seel isn't even an Ice type. Similar to Shellder, it only becomes one upon evolution.

Edit: I also remember that the Sword/Shield beta that leaked used the development codenames for the Pokemon actually coded into the game instead of their real names, even the ones from prior gens, and Avalugg was called Iceberg3 rather than Iceberg2(All Pokemon that are part of the same line are called a code word and their stage number). So that means that at one point there was going to be a stage between it and Bergmite, which looking at both of them it does look like they skipped over something going from one to the other. If they had kept it that way Bergmite could've potentially had a halfway-decent evolution level.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top