Oh. Well in that case I got nothing.
Also the developers may have been hewing more towards RGB than Yellow, as the two Dragonair’s move sets are the exact same there.
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(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon
- Thread starter BriarRose
- Start date
Also the developers may have been hewing more towards RGB than Yellow, as the two Dragonair’s move sets are the exact same there.
I found out Colosseum and XD's characters don't have official artworks.
Not only that, but only three Orre duology characters ever had official renders: Wes, Michael (the XD protagonist), and the XD version of Miror B.
I also can't stand the fact Miror B.'s name is spelled with only one R.
Not only that, but only three Orre duology characters ever had official renders: Wes, Michael (the XD protagonist), and the XD version of Miror B.
I also can't stand the fact Miror B.'s name is spelled with only one R.
^Before Breath of the Wild was released, Zelda forums mainly consisted of people acting like Skyward Sword had personally offended them.
That is a result of quantity over quality, though it doesn’t help that except a few like Lucario, Garchomp and (Platinum onward) Rotom, the other Gen 4 Pokémon aren’t even that good either.
It wasn’t until Gen 5 where Pokémon started to have at least some bit of viability in mind. And even then, it tend to be even more hit-or-miss than before in terms of viability; we got more viable Pokémon, but in turn we get more outright duds.
I really kind of doubt that the amount of evolutions in Gen 4 was why Electivire and the other evolutions were "bad"
And on a broader note I sure wouldn't use "quantity" to describe gen 4 as a whole either.
Competitively or in terms of design?
Competitively, it's simple: Volt Tackle is exclusive to the Pichu line because anime (I guess), and they forgot to create other great Physical Electric-type moves in Generation IV.
It depends. The Generation IV cross-gen evolutions are all over the place in terms of battle prowess, but actually not that bad in terms of looks:
| Well-liked design | Design with mixed reception | Disliked design | |
| Good in competitive | Gliscor, Magnezone, Mamoswine, Porygon-Z, Weavile | Tangrowth, Togekiss | N/A |
| Usable in competitive | Froslass, Gallade, Honchkrow, Mismagius, Roserade, Yanmega | Magmortar | Rhyperior |
| Bad in competitive | Dusknoir, Electivire, Glaceon, Leafeon | N/A | Ambipom, Lickilicky, Probopass |
Probopass I usually see more people like than dislike. Electivire is probably mixed; you either like the bulky yeti like design or you hate it. Magmortar...I think goes into the dislike bin. I've really not heard anyone who really likes it outside of "arm cannons are cool"
Rhyperior I wish I'd put mixed but the defenders (me) are very few.
Rhyperior I wish I'd put mixed but the defenders (me) are very few.
I wouldn't say people hated Rhyperior design-wise.
What disappoints people when it comes to Rhyperior is it folding to Surf even with Solid Rock.
And we STILL don't really have a good one. Wild Charge is trash.
Vire with Volt Tackle in Gen 4 would've been a LOT better. Maybe not so much in later gens, by then it'd probably fall into the same category of Flare Blitz Flareon, the power creep was real.
Shoutouts to my boy Dusknoir who got done even worse.
A big issue with the Gen IV evolutions(and later gen evolutions in general) is that GF is unwilling to retcon evolution methods outside of extreme circumstances. EVire would be just fine in-game with a mixed set. 123/95/95 offenses are perfectly fine, and it's got decent bulk. Magmortar is similar, but doesn't have to go mixed and is slower. But they require both a unique item and a trade, which makes them unavailable for a lot of playthroughs.I think if EBuzz needed the Thunder Stone and Magmar needed the Fire Stone, there'd be a lot more people using them in-game.
It wouldn't change the competitive issue, but until there's a Physical Electric move that doesn't self-damage, isn't a signature move, and has more than 75 BP, that's going to be a permanent problem. (There's 6 high-BP physical electric signature moves that don't self-damage, and also Volt Tackle, so clearly GF knows that it's a gap, but just isn't addressing it).
It wouldn't change the competitive issue, but until there's a Physical Electric move that doesn't self-damage, isn't a signature move, and has more than 75 BP, that's going to be a permanent problem. (There's 6 high-BP physical electric signature moves that don't self-damage, and also Volt Tackle, so clearly GF knows that it's a gap, but just isn't addressing it).
Volt Tackle wasn't even made in Gen IV. It was in the coding of Gen III but wasn't made available until Emerald via breeding with a Light Ball attached. I'm pretty certain one of the big reasons why Light Ball started being able to also increase Attack and not just Special Attack starting in Gen IV was because Volt Tackle became a physical move.
I don't think it's a lack of physical Electric STAB that holds Electivire back so much as its subpar Speed. If Electivire was like, at least base 110 Speed, I think it would see some usage as a pretty effective breaker, as its coverage is insanely hard to switch into. Wild Charge chipping into your HP isn't ideal, but there are plenty of other Pokemon who get away with relying on recoil moves.
The biggest thing that annoys me is that Wild Charge is a recoil move at all. It's substantially weaker than other recoil moves, and it has no other secondary effect to compensate. It should either be brought up to the 120 base power standard of Flare Blitz/Double Edge/Wood Hammer, or have a paralysis chance attached to it as well. Or just remove the recoil and give physically-inclined Electric types a base 90 power move with no drawbacks; still worse than Thunderbolt.
The biggest thing that annoys me is that Wild Charge is a recoil move at all. It's substantially weaker than other recoil moves, and it has no other secondary effect to compensate. It should either be brought up to the 120 base power standard of Flare Blitz/Double Edge/Wood Hammer, or have a paralysis chance attached to it as well. Or just remove the recoil and give physically-inclined Electric types a base 90 power move with no drawbacks; still worse than Thunderbolt.
That big issue is done by unnecessarily making new items that does nothing but evolve the appropriate Pokémon, even if flavorful. It caused an unintentional slippery slope with an increasing amount of unintuitive evolution methods given for Pokémon not related to the old lines at all, alongside item bloat. This is especially bad with Gen 8.
I can only see this resolved by diversifying evolution methods a little more and make the pre-existing ones simpler. Like a few new Pokémon that evolve via defeating an amount of Pokémon of specific type, which can be tedious if done wrong but helps making new options while keeping possible flavor they have.
Electric having little to no viable physical Electric is a result of GF insistance of wanting each type to have their own specific role, even if it results stagnancy among the type in question or how poorly it will synergize with the Pokémon.
Electivire is a weird case where it's a multitude of things that made it a disappointment in the competitive scene. Yes, being a physical Electric-type is one of those things and how it doesn't have a great physical STAB to use, with its best one being 90 BP Wild Charge that does recoil. Yes, its 95 Speed is also in fact an issue with it in that it's too slow to be an effective sweeper. In addition to that, Electivire is also reliant on low Base Power moves on the physical side for coverage to hit its switch-ins, and its stronger coverage moves are on its relatively okay 95 Special Attack, which means its damage output is often not good enough. This is made worse by the fact that it has no effective way to boost its power like Swords Dance or Nasty Plot. As such, Electivire falls short as a wallbreaker. Meanwhile, as stated, its 95 Speed holds it back from being an effective sweeper, as it's too slow to really serve as a sweeper in that regard.
Basically, all of these factors together make it fall short competitively. Its STAB only has good power with a major drawback, it relies on low BP moves as coverage or using its lower Special Attack and has no way to boost its power on either end: in both of these senses, it's not strong enough. And it's also not fast enough, as 95 is too slow to sweep.
It's "not strong enough" and "not fast enough" in other words, which is what hinders it competitively.
With that said, the trade evolution hurdles aside, Electivire is quite fun in-game. Its amazing coverage and 123/95 offenses which are great for in-game make it a really fun and splashable mixed attacker in the late game if you can trade (I happen to be fortunate since I have multiple DS/3DS systems and multiple games of generations so I can trade with myself, though I know not everyone has that luxury), especially in Platinum, BW2, and USUM where it's a really fun mon to use. It's just that competitive demands you be exceptionally powerful or unique, and Electivire isn't that which prevents it from shining in competitive.
Basically, all of these factors together make it fall short competitively. Its STAB only has good power with a major drawback, it relies on low BP moves as coverage or using its lower Special Attack and has no way to boost its power on either end: in both of these senses, it's not strong enough. And it's also not fast enough, as 95 is too slow to sweep.
It's "not strong enough" and "not fast enough" in other words, which is what hinders it competitively.
With that said, the trade evolution hurdles aside, Electivire is quite fun in-game. Its amazing coverage and 123/95 offenses which are great for in-game make it a really fun and splashable mixed attacker in the late game if you can trade (I happen to be fortunate since I have multiple DS/3DS systems and multiple games of generations so I can trade with myself, though I know not everyone has that luxury), especially in Platinum, BW2, and USUM where it's a really fun mon to use. It's just that competitive demands you be exceptionally powerful or unique, and Electivire isn't that which prevents it from shining in competitive.
I think we're underselling Electivire's insane coverage a little bit here. It doesn't really need crazy high base power coverage moves. Just with what it already has, it can 1-2HKO almost everything on the OU VR list. It just doesn't have the Speed to exploit that coverage, and it's very prediction-reliant as, while it can 2HKO almost anything, it struggles to flat out OHKO many opponents if they get in on a resisted move. A faster Electivire with a stronger Electic STAB would be a nightmare for balance teams to handle unless they pack something specific like Gastrodon or Swampert, and would be a fantastic late-game cleaner in general. Not exactly broken by any means, but certainly a lot more viable than Electivire currently is.
Kinda both. It looks good aesthtically but when i first saw i thought it was an electric/fighting type. Was disappointed to find out it was only electric.
They shouldn't have decreased it speed when it evolves. They did the same with Honchkrow.
They could just give it plasma fists now. And before people say it's a signature of a legendary. They did the same with sacred sword and sky attack.
Magmortar design is horrible. Even worse than Rhyperior's
IDK, I actually like that Electivire's speed is on the middling side since fast Electric-types are a dime-a-dozen between Jolteon, Tapu Koko, Zeraora, Raichu,, etc. I always wanted Electivre to be a strong wall-breaker with an ability like Sheer Force. It would probably still be worse than Nidoqueen / King, but it would be a strong special attacker with moves like Thunderbolt & Flamethrower, with the added bonus of a decently powerful Ice Punch to slam ground-types on the opponent's team.
Speaking of Sheer Force, its sad that Druddigon doesn't get Dragon Rush. The low accuracy sucks, but on average, it'd be about a Base 100 power attack STAB move with no real drawbacks, making it pretty solid.
But that's why Motor Drive exists. Vire's entire gimmick was trying to bait an Electric move and sweep.
Of course, it doesn't work nearly as often as one would like, even in Doubles where you can run something with Discharge, but at least it stands out. 95 wasn't even horrible by Gen 4 standards either.
I never said it didn't have a gimmick, I said I wished it was better. People have tried for a decade and a half now to make Motor Drive work, and all the baiting Electric moves with Gyarados in the world hasn't turned Electivire into a viable Pokemon. I suggested something that probably would.
In order to work as an effective breaker, Electivire needs the freedom to switch out without worrying about losing a Speed boost.
Since I can’t really add anything to the E-vire discussion that hasn’t already been said, I’m just gonna say this: I think the main reason Rhyperior gets a lot of disdain is not due to any qualms against the design but because it felt unnecessary. Rhydon had been perfectly serviceable as a final evo for the past 3 gens, so seeing it evolve again was probs a nasty shock to many longtime fans.People said:
in my experience it's really just the design
i saw so many people literally call it a trash can and that was even before Platinum's sprite had it open its mouth
Oh God, thanks for reminding me of the beauty that is Deep Sea Tooth.
You could have Clamperl hold this item not just for evolving it into a water serpent, but also destroy its recently hatched fellas in Little Cup.
(Imagine an Applin doing the same with a Tart Apple.)
Some evolutions also don't give a big stat increase. *cough*Dusknoir*cough*
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