-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
the weed cat meme made me hate sprigatito on account of the fact that stoner jokes are ridiculously unfunny
Oooh I love unpopular opinions!!!
- Gen 6 is my favorite gen. Not only is it my first and nostalgic, it has an awesome storyline and so many things to do
- Sun and Moon is one of the best anime seasons. It has some goofy and cute episodes, but also some really dark and sad ones
- I love all the kawaii pokemon stuff but deep down inside my heart my greatest desire is for an M rated pokemon horror game
- Gen 1 is my least favorite. Not because it's bad, it's just so bare bones and people praise it as the greatest thing ever
- 3d pokemon > pixellated pokemon
- Sw/Sh isn't as bad as people say it is, the story was just garbage
Another cutemon fan who also like darker stories? Sign me up!
For real, Gengar and other terrifying Pokémon are cute. Even fucking Hydreigon and Yveltal can be cute! And I love it!
Water is fundamentally an extremely unbalanced type and needs more than a few changes - both to the type itself and to mechanics that operate with Water typed - to correct it. Granted, the type chart is a really complex machine and it's a miracle that its as well-balanced as it is, but I think Water in particular needs some more checks. As a Seaking (just a Seaking, in fact!) I think I can attest to this with some credibility.
In terms of the type chart, Water is only beaten in “why are you like this” by Fairy and pre-Gen VI Steel. It’s got two weaknesses, one of which is a pretty poor offensive type overall in Grass. Electric actually has a pretty neat interaction here with Rain, but I’m getting ahead of myself. It resists double the types it’s weak to, however - Fire, Ice, Steel, and itself. Resisting yourself is hardly unusual, and neither is resisting a type you hit super-effectively, Something not easily noticed at a glance, though, is that it combines with several types to have absurd defensive synergy - Water/Ground. Water/Flying, and Water/Steel stand out to me in this regard. Its lack of weaknesses comes together really well to form a pretty universally effective. While Steel has many more resistances than Water, this is kept in check by being weak to some very common offensive types - Ground, Fighting, and to a lesser extent Fire. It's also a rather poor offensive type, offsetting a robust defense. That isn't true with Water. Water is also just... a nightmare to deal with in practice, defensively. It has no immunities, yes, but its lack of weaknesses and synergy with common types make it difficult to deal with - and that's not getting into one particular defensive tool that Water types have, Scald, which puts any and all physical attackers opposing a Water type in a really bad position. Either you're a Fire type and Scald will hit you super-effectively, or you just have to run the risk of a 30% burn. Water is far too oppressive as a defensive type when it can leverage burns with no downside, and it needlessly limits your options to deal with a Water type effectively.
Offensively, I think Water is mostly fine - on paper, that is. It hits 3 types super effectively, and 3 types non-effectively. In practice I think it ends up being much more oppressive than that, however - Water types almost universally have access to Ice coverage, which A. somewhat undermines Ice's offensive utility and B. allows them to get around 2 of those types that resist its STAB. (In general I think coverage has gotten far too good across every single type except Electric, but Water has done this as far back as Gen III so I take issue with it in particular). Water has the means to get around two its checks with just two moveslots, and has two more to do whatever it wants with - be that set-up moves, secondary STAB, ally support, or what have you. Rain also contributes to this even further, with nothing except 'mons with Storm Drain being able to keep up with Rain-boosted STAB - much less from 'mons with Swift Swim. Gen VIII even saw fit to give Water types STAB U-Turn, which is thankfully barely kept in check by limited distribution - however, it was still given to many Swift Swimmers, such as Kabutops and Barraskewda, who hardly needed more tools to abuse under Rain. The downside for Rain is evidently supposed to be that you're leaving yourself vulnerable to Thunder, but what good does that do when you're outrunning anything with Thunder to begin with?
So... I've said a lot about what's wrong with Water, but how would I personally change it? This is something much easier said than done given how many moving parts make up the type chart and the game itself, but I'd like to think that the changes I'm about to propose will mostly be a net positive for keeping Water in check while also not ruining the type outright, nor giving any one type too much of an advantage.
1. Water is now weak to Poison - the thematic reasoning essentially being the impact of water pollution, especially by oil. This positions Poison as a sort of anti-meta offensive type, and this + Gen 8's toxic distribution nerf puts Poison in a much better spot than before. I'm neutral on whether or not Poison should resist Water, but I lean on a neutral matchup there.
2. Ice is now immune to Water, and Ice is now neutral against Water. Freeze-Dry exists if you want to hit Water super-effectively, but I think this interaction makes much more sense than before. This also lessens the synergy of Water/Ground and Water/Flying types, and gives Ice the slightest defensive mileage with a wholly unique immunity while also not making it any offensively stronger than it currently is.
3. Highly limit the distribution of both Scald and Ice-type moves. If given the choice I'd remove Scald outright and leave the Water burn gimmick to Volcanion, but if it must stay around I definitely think much more care should be put into who gets it. As for Ice moves, I'm not nearly so keen on suggesting outright removal, especially given how much coverage most 'mons get these days, but I think things should be dialed back somewhat - maybe not every Water type needs Ice moves, nor do they all need to get the strongest consistent option in Ice Beam. You could make a comparison in Fire types getting the perfect coverage move in Solar Beam, but that requires Sun up to get mileage out of it. Ice Beam does not.
4. I think Rain needs a much closer look in terms of balance, to the point that it goes beyond the scope of this post. Suffice to say, however, I think that Rain is an absurdly unbalanced weather condition and just blows its contemporaries out of the water (i'm hilarious i know). It just has so much more in the way of offensive and defensive tools than any other weather form, and while this isn't directly related to Water, I think it very closely interacts with Water to the point where it counts.
With all that said - I don't think Water is actually the best type right now, that goes to Fairy. Being the most unbalanced does not inherently make you the best - just look at Gen 1, where Psychic is the most absurdly unbalanced type ever and yet Normal still wins out as the best by virtue of Gen 1 meta. I just feel that Water is in this odd position where it has almost everything going for it, and has not nearly enough downsides to compensate. I won't act like I'm some all-knowing expert on the type chart or the meta, but I think changing up some things about Water would make it a more balanced type overall. Better yet, we can do this while also lifting up some of the weaker types, which is always a good thing.
In terms of the type chart, Water is only beaten in “why are you like this” by Fairy and pre-Gen VI Steel. It’s got two weaknesses, one of which is a pretty poor offensive type overall in Grass. Electric actually has a pretty neat interaction here with Rain, but I’m getting ahead of myself. It resists double the types it’s weak to, however - Fire, Ice, Steel, and itself. Resisting yourself is hardly unusual, and neither is resisting a type you hit super-effectively, Something not easily noticed at a glance, though, is that it combines with several types to have absurd defensive synergy - Water/Ground. Water/Flying, and Water/Steel stand out to me in this regard. Its lack of weaknesses comes together really well to form a pretty universally effective. While Steel has many more resistances than Water, this is kept in check by being weak to some very common offensive types - Ground, Fighting, and to a lesser extent Fire. It's also a rather poor offensive type, offsetting a robust defense. That isn't true with Water. Water is also just... a nightmare to deal with in practice, defensively. It has no immunities, yes, but its lack of weaknesses and synergy with common types make it difficult to deal with - and that's not getting into one particular defensive tool that Water types have, Scald, which puts any and all physical attackers opposing a Water type in a really bad position. Either you're a Fire type and Scald will hit you super-effectively, or you just have to run the risk of a 30% burn. Water is far too oppressive as a defensive type when it can leverage burns with no downside, and it needlessly limits your options to deal with a Water type effectively.
Offensively, I think Water is mostly fine - on paper, that is. It hits 3 types super effectively, and 3 types non-effectively. In practice I think it ends up being much more oppressive than that, however - Water types almost universally have access to Ice coverage, which A. somewhat undermines Ice's offensive utility and B. allows them to get around 2 of those types that resist its STAB. (In general I think coverage has gotten far too good across every single type except Electric, but Water has done this as far back as Gen III so I take issue with it in particular). Water has the means to get around two its checks with just two moveslots, and has two more to do whatever it wants with - be that set-up moves, secondary STAB, ally support, or what have you. Rain also contributes to this even further, with nothing except 'mons with Storm Drain being able to keep up with Rain-boosted STAB - much less from 'mons with Swift Swim. Gen VIII even saw fit to give Water types STAB U-Turn, which is thankfully barely kept in check by limited distribution - however, it was still given to many Swift Swimmers, such as Kabutops and Barraskewda, who hardly needed more tools to abuse under Rain. The downside for Rain is evidently supposed to be that you're leaving yourself vulnerable to Thunder, but what good does that do when you're outrunning anything with Thunder to begin with?
So... I've said a lot about what's wrong with Water, but how would I personally change it? This is something much easier said than done given how many moving parts make up the type chart and the game itself, but I'd like to think that the changes I'm about to propose will mostly be a net positive for keeping Water in check while also not ruining the type outright, nor giving any one type too much of an advantage.
1. Water is now weak to Poison - the thematic reasoning essentially being the impact of water pollution, especially by oil. This positions Poison as a sort of anti-meta offensive type, and this + Gen 8's toxic distribution nerf puts Poison in a much better spot than before. I'm neutral on whether or not Poison should resist Water, but I lean on a neutral matchup there.
2. Ice is now immune to Water, and Ice is now neutral against Water. Freeze-Dry exists if you want to hit Water super-effectively, but I think this interaction makes much more sense than before. This also lessens the synergy of Water/Ground and Water/Flying types, and gives Ice the slightest defensive mileage with a wholly unique immunity while also not making it any offensively stronger than it currently is.
3. Highly limit the distribution of both Scald and Ice-type moves. If given the choice I'd remove Scald outright and leave the Water burn gimmick to Volcanion, but if it must stay around I definitely think much more care should be put into who gets it. As for Ice moves, I'm not nearly so keen on suggesting outright removal, especially given how much coverage most 'mons get these days, but I think things should be dialed back somewhat - maybe not every Water type needs Ice moves, nor do they all need to get the strongest consistent option in Ice Beam. You could make a comparison in Fire types getting the perfect coverage move in Solar Beam, but that requires Sun up to get mileage out of it. Ice Beam does not.
4. I think Rain needs a much closer look in terms of balance, to the point that it goes beyond the scope of this post. Suffice to say, however, I think that Rain is an absurdly unbalanced weather condition and just blows its contemporaries out of the water (i'm hilarious i know). It just has so much more in the way of offensive and defensive tools than any other weather form, and while this isn't directly related to Water, I think it very closely interacts with Water to the point where it counts.
With all that said - I don't think Water is actually the best type right now, that goes to Fairy. Being the most unbalanced does not inherently make you the best - just look at Gen 1, where Psychic is the most absurdly unbalanced type ever and yet Normal still wins out as the best by virtue of Gen 1 meta. I just feel that Water is in this odd position where it has almost everything going for it, and has not nearly enough downsides to compensate. I won't act like I'm some all-knowing expert on the type chart or the meta, but I think changing up some things about Water would make it a more balanced type overall. Better yet, we can do this while also lifting up some of the weaker types, which is always a good thing.
Personally, I like that Water excels on both offense and defense, and that most Water-type Pokemon can do both with a single set. It gives the type a flavor of being reliable and adaptable.
"Water can flow, or it can crash. Be water, my friend."
"Water can flow, or it can crash. Be water, my friend."
Maybe it's just the fact that I usually play Monotype, but "combines for good defensive synergy" doesn't strike me as particular to Water. Lots of types have the ability to go down to only one or two weaknesses with the right pairing: Electric/Flying, Ground/Flying, Dark/Poison, Dark/Ghost, Grass/Steel, even pure Normal are all typings I associate with good defensive mons.
I agree that it probably shouldn't be better at getting burns than Fire, though (give more mons Lava Plume GF).
I really agree with this. Poison being SE on Water just makes sense and would do wonders balance-wise.
The problem with Water really boils down to Scald. That move is way too strong and not really thematically appropriate to be the premier STAB of choice for Water mons. It should've been a gimmick, not a widespread TM.
With that said, I'm not too sure about what I'd really associate with Water effect-wise.
This is also very important. Water has always been a very balanced type and I think it should be like that. That's why I don't think it needs a lot of nerfs.
If there's one secondary effect that I think makes a lot of sense to put on Water-Type moves, it's flinching. We've all been in a shower that's turned cold and it's made us flinch. We've all been walking home and a downpour's started that's made us either flinch or curse. And in the more extreme sense, a proper wave crashing down on you is very similar to the only move in Gen I that had a flinch rate, that being Stomp.
On the other hand Water-Type is good and flinching is annoying as all hell so it really doesn't need that kind of buff lol. Just flavour-wise, flinching makes a great deal of thematic sense. Might be alright since most Water-Type Pokémon tend to be quite slow, Swift Swim notwithstanding.
On the other hand Water-Type is good and flinching is annoying as all hell so it really doesn't need that kind of buff lol. Just flavour-wise, flinching makes a great deal of thematic sense. Might be alright since most Water-Type Pokémon tend to be quite slow, Swift Swim notwithstanding.
i love the water type but i think there are way too many water type mons. it leads to a lot of the lesser ones feeling extremely forgettable and dull and overall the type feels like it lacks any identity beyond being good. even if its supposed to be the all around type that's good at everything, it's ended up having some of the best walls, sweepers, wallbreakers, etc. i don't think that makes it broken or anything, just oversaturated. it is kinda cool though how bulky waters can often check opposing water moves though, no other type really keeps itself in check like that.
Considering what our world is like, Water being the most common type makes sense.
Also, consider that every employee at Game Freak was born on on a small chain of islands that have a deep cultural connection to the ocean due to it lacking many land-based natural resources that other island-based countries have(Most of the landmass of Japan in uninhabitable for people, and an even smaller amount than that is good for large-scale agriculture), which means that the ocean is where a large chunk of the populace's livelihood has come from for most of it's history.
As of late, Game Freak have been making more and more Pokemon that can be found in the water that are not Water type, which is a step in the right direction. I mean, the series always had Dratini and Dragonair, but until Gen V they were the exception.
Last edited:
I agree that the Water-type is really full, and that can lead to a lot of standard designs. For example, when I first saw Barraskewda my first thought was "is this it?". I think that the fish concept has been done to death and that Game Freak could focus more on Water-types like Keldeo and Primarina, both of which are based on creatures that are associated with Water but it takes a different spin on them rather than just a fish. If you asked me what Lanturn was and I didn't know that it was a Pokémon, I'd tell you it looked like a drawing of an anglerfish. If you showed me a drawing of something like Suicune or Primarina, I would say Suicune looked like a leopard and a weird mermaid thing. One of those is something I wouldn't even associate with the Water-type, and the other is something that has a different spin put on it to make it a combination of a seal and a mermaid. Even if Game Freak wanted to stick to real-world things, there are still plenty of aquatic creatures that don't have the same basic design as fish such as hammerhead sharks (though I suppose you could argue this infringes on Sharpedo's niche as the Shark Pokémon) and octopus. You could even do something like a boat, which I know Smogon's Create-a-Pokémon project has done.
Yeah, that's a very fair take. In terms of functionality, it aligns with Water practically a given for any in-game team from Gens 1 to 6, given that you'll be using at least 1 and at max 3 different water HMs just to get around the place. Having Water types be consistent and versatile makes sense with that in mind, but we're also far past the point where HMs are relevant anymore - so I don't think that's a reason to design Water that way anymore.
This perspective makes sense, but I think Water is only really a problem in this sense when taken in context with everything else the type has going for it - sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I think it's also extremely versatile by nature of what it resists - Electric is in a similar position, but the type is much less defensively potent than Water otherwise. Ground is an extremely common offensive typing that hits the best defensive type in the game, after all.
Also re: the talk about the Water type being oversaturated: Yeah, I agree with that. I'm glad that they've been more willing to add aquatic creatures that aren't necessarily Water type, like Stunfisk, Dragalgae, or Grapploct - it's a step in the right direction for sure.
I wouldn’t say the Clubbopus line being a good example due to being pure Fighting… from a Generation that already gave us two additional pure Fighting-type lines (Galarian Farfetch’d and Falinks), alongside Kubfu before evolving and Zamazenta without the Rusty Shield held. I definitely agree with Stunfisk and Dragalge, and I’ll like to add the Inkay line due to being based of squids, traditionally aquatic animals.
Remember when we thought dexit would allow a rotation of Pokemon to prevent overlapping families from having to compete with each, and then Sw/Sh gave us the Machop, Hitmon, and Timburr lines alongside Sawk and Throh in the base version. Does anyone even remember that Lucario is in the base game?
Water starters are weirdly hit miss. Blastoise underperforms compared to Charizard and Venu, Feraligatr had that small niche of a Skarmbliss counter but had poor stab, Swampert was super good, Empoleon was decent despite being overshadowed by Infernape, Samurott was disappointing, Greninja was bonkers, Primarina was better than other starters but still faulty, and Intellion is overshadowed by Libero Cinderace and Grassy Glide Rilaboom
It's fascinating despite Water being so good of a type
Squirtle and Totodile are by far the best Pokémon in their respective generations for in-game, so there's that for them at least.
May as well throw this out on the topic of in-game: Abra line is overrated for in-game runs. It's consistently rated as a high-top tier Pokémon in the in-game tier lists when it's typically underleveled, requires switch training to grind, lacks coverage, and is very squishy physically. Even in GSC where it gets elemental punches and can train itself, it comes at level 10 when Whitney's team is 18-20 and you can reasonably have a starter in the early 20s at this point, so there's little practical application to invest in Abra if your goal is efficiency.
May as well throw this out on the topic of in-game: Abra line is overrated for in-game runs. It's consistently rated as a high-top tier Pokémon in the in-game tier lists when it's typically underleveled, requires switch training to grind, lacks coverage, and is very squishy physically. Even in GSC where it gets elemental punches and can train itself, it comes at level 10 when Whitney's team is 18-20 and you can reasonably have a starter in the early 20s at this point, so there's little practical application to invest in Abra if your goal is efficiency.
All I want for christmas is a WTF button.
Bro, GSC Abra is literally the most busted in-game mon EVER.
It being slightly underleveled is irrelevant when it's immediately throwing punches like prime Mike Tyson off 105 SpA with breakneck speed compared to everything at that point in the game. Johto's level curve means it's not severely underleveled either and there are plenty of trainers for it to catch up.
Did you know Psychic runs through Johto and Kanto like a hot knife through butter?
That was a straight up crazy take.
You know, this just brought back a memory of me having Hitmonchan with all elemental punches and being disappointed when they did basically no damage, I was so confused at the time... :'(
Speedrun wise, GSC sure for Toto, but HGSS?
Nah, far too dangerous cuz Bayleef rival fights steamroll it, and can just spam synthesis. Bellsprout Tower also no longer is optional, so there's that mess too.
So Typhlosion line is preferred
All I want for christmas is a WTF button.
Bro, GSC Abra is literally the most busted in-game mon EVER.
It being slightly underleveled is irrelevant when it's immediately throwing punches like prime Mike Tyson off 105 SpA with breakneck speed compared to everything at that point in the game. Johto's level curve means it's not severely underleveled either and there are plenty of trainers for it to catch up.
Did you know Psychic runs through Johto and Kanto like a hot knife through butter?
That was a straight up crazy take.
Lvl 10 0 SpA Abra Ice Punch vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 SpD Miltank: 6-8 (8.8 - 11.7%) -- possible 9HKO
Lvl 20 0 Atk Miltank Stomp vs. Lvl 10 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 74-88 (284.6 - 338.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lvl 20 16 Atk Croconaw Headbutt vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 Def Miltank: 11-14 (16.1 - 20.5%) -- possible 5HKO
Lvl 20 16 Atk Croconaw Fury Cutter vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 Def Miltank: 14-17 (20.5 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 20 0 Atk Miltank Stomp vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 Def Croconaw: 18-22 (30.5 - 37.2%) -- 71.7% chance to 3HKO
Lvl 21 0 SpA Kadabra Psybeam vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 SpD Miltank: 28-33 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lvl 20 0 Atk Miltank Stomp vs. Lvl 21 0 HP / 0 Def Kadabra: 35-42 (68.6 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 21 0 SpA Alakazam Psybeam vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 SpD Miltank: 31-37 (45.5 - 54.4%) -- 49.6% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 20 0 Atk Miltank Stomp vs. Lvl 21 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 26-31 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 47.3% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 25 4 Atk Croconaw Headbutt vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 Def Miltank: 16-19 (23.5 - 27.9%) -- 69.7% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 25 4 Atk Croconaw Fury Cutter vs. Lvl 20 0 HP / 0 Def Miltank: 20-24 (29.4 - 35.2%) -- 14.4% chance to 3HKO
Lvl 20 0 Atk Miltank Stomp vs. Lvl 25 0 HP / 0 Def Croconaw: 15-18 (21.1 - 25.3%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
Calculations are 16 IV (equivalent to 8 in gen I/II system) for player side, with adjustments on Croconaw's Attack and Fury Cutter's base damage to account for badge bonus. Fury Cutter is on the 4th hit (80 base BP, 90 with Azalea badge bonus applied), accounting for accumulating it on Clefairy, this lets Croconaw consistently solo the fight at lower levels than it normally would be able to. Miltank's IVs are allegedly 0 HP / 18 (9 gen I/II) else according to this guide on GameFAQs, which is the best resource I've found for GSC trainer stats. The EXP needed to bring Abra to 21 (21 is for Psybeam) is approximately the same to bring a level 20 Croconaw to 25, I did not check to see if Abra could grind as efficiently as Croconaw can. Stat EXP is not accounted for, these would make the comparisons more favorable for Croconaw as it has more stat EXP accumulated.
I'm routing out a low RNG run so Croconaw is already at level 24 after Rival #2 due to Bayleef's Razor Leaf (need to be 24 to guarantee a 3HKO with Fury Cutter, though stat EXP might lessen that). Abra's just not worth grinding for.
HGSS is gen IV, not referring to it.
This is some biased-ass stuff right here. You seem to completely ignore the fact the thing about Abra in GSC is it's really amazing coverage to hit stuff super-effectively thanks to it being able to learn all three the very easily obtainable elemental punch TMs, you just simply compared neutral hits vs neutral hits while ignoring that it's coverage of Psychic/Fire/Ice/Electric hits more important stuff super-effectively than any move combination the Totodile line can use.
Last edited:
Whitney's a losing matchup for Abra, sure. She's also literally the only bad matchup it has for the rest of the run besides Karen, and even then Kadabra can beat 3/5 of her team. Coming off second-best in a comparison with Totodile (assuming you can't trade for Alakazam) is not a strike against it because Totodile is the most generically strong and accessible mon in the entire game.
This feels like the same convo that the in-game tier list threads have gone through over and over again where people are like 'but surely [Pokemon] represents an untenable opportunity cost because it's more efficient for me to overlevel my starter?' even though the lists have never been about pure efficiency in a vacuum. If you decide to train an Abra it will pull its weight exceptionally well in virtually every game it appears in.
This feels like the same convo that the in-game tier list threads have gone through over and over again where people are like 'but surely [Pokemon] represents an untenable opportunity cost because it's more efficient for me to overlevel my starter?' even though the lists have never been about pure efficiency in a vacuum. If you decide to train an Abra it will pull its weight exceptionally well in virtually every game it appears in.