Oh God, not another Wobbuffet discussion!

Seriously? Pull your head out of your ass, no one would run a dugtrio with a set like that JUST to beat a wobuffett. Resulting to gimmicks isn't worth posting

You, sir, fail. I'm sorry. That Dugtrio set was already seen back in ADV.

Actually, protect is not even necessary really, so you can get a set like this:

Dugtrio @ Choice Band
Adamant, 252 Att, 252 Speed
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Sucker Punch
- Aerial Ace / Sucker punch
- Toxic

When you switch into Wobby, all you gotta do Toxic him and keep doing so until he perishes. The other moves enable you to get the best out of Dugtrio regardless.
 
You, sir, fail. I'm sorry. That Dugtrio set was already seen back in ADV.

Actually, protect is not even necessary really, so you can get a set like this:

Dugtrio @ Choice Band
Adamant, 252 Att, 252 Speed
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Sucker Punch
- Aerial Ace / Sucker punch
- Toxic

When you switch into Wobby, all you gotta do Toxic him and keep doing so until he perishes. The other moves enable you to get the best out of Dugtrio regardless.
Which showed how much Wob overcentralized the metagame, hence why it was banned.

For those who find the Charizard/Wobbuffet combo invalid, consider move: Rapid Spin?
 
I have to disagree, Bologo. Taking away your opponents ability to switch is the single most game-changing event that has ever happened to this game. While dugtrio has a similar ability, his attack and defenses are pretty bad, so he is only useful for revenge killing. Wobuffet, on the other hand, has defenses to use encore, which is the problem. Essentially, you are either forced to kill yourself through counter/mirror coat, or be locked into a support move allowing your opponent to set up at his leisure.

By definition, Wobuffet has no counters, and so he does not belong in the standard metagame.

Ok, but you can't just assume that the person facing Wobbuffet has no prediction skills.

The opponent can lure in Wobbuffet by using a pokemon, such as Porygon-Z, who is commonly Choiced, and then Wobbuffet will use Mirror Coat, assuming a special attack, while the Porygon-Z is really a Nasty Plot sweeper, using Nasty Plot while Wobbuffet Mirror Coats, promptly killing Wobbuffet with Dark Pulse/Tri Attack the turn after.

That's just one example. Both sides have prediction skills, and unless the opponent is Choiced, Wobbuffet can still be beaten by prediction. In other words, Wobbuffet is only foolproof against Choice users. Against everything else, the user has to predict perfectly, although the opponent must predict perfectly as well, so no, it is not "at his leisure", as you say.

What you said also doesn't mean that people have to bitch just because the guy is being TESTED.
 
The opponent can lure in Wobbuffet by using a pokemon, such as Porygon-Z, who is commonly Choiced, and then Wobbuffet will use Mirror Coat, assuming a special attack, while the Porygon-Z is really a Nasty Plot sweeper, using Nasty Plot while Wobbuffet Mirror Coats, promptly killing Wobbuffet with Dark Pulse/Tri Attack the turn after.

Wobbuffet wouldn't use Mirror Coat, it would use Encore and promptly have a free turn after switch.
 
Ok, so then they're screwed if the Porygon-Z in that example was a Choice user. They just wasted an Encore on something that would be repeating moves anyway. My point was that both the Wobbuffet user and the opponent have to outpredict each other if either wants their moves to work the way they planned.

EDIT: Thanks Jiggy-Ninja.
 
Besides, why is prediction even brought into this? Literally anything can be taken down with adequate prediction, so I don't even see why it is being considered as a reason why Wobbuffet should or shouldn't be banned.
 
Ok, but you can't just assume that the person facing Wobbuffet has no prediction skills.

The opponent can lure in Wobbuffet by using a pokemon, such as Porygon-Z, who is commonly Choiced, and then Wobbuffet will use Mirror Coat, assuming a special attack, while the Porygon-Z is really a Nasty Plot sweeper, using Nasty Plot while Wobbuffet Mirror Coats, promptly killing Wobbuffet with Dark Pulse/Tri Attack the turn after.

That's just one example. Both sides have prediction skills, and unless the opponent is Choiced, Wobbuffet can still be beaten by prediction. In other words, Wobbuffet is only foolproof against Choice users. Against everything else, the user has to predict perfectly, although the opponent must predict perfectly as well, so no, it is not "at his leisure", as you say.

What you said also doesn't mean that people have to bitch just because the guy is being TESTED.

Wobbuffet wouldn't Encore against something that it presumes to be a Choice Item Pokemon. All it takes is a misprediction.

Ok, so then they're screwed if the Porygon-Z in that example was a Choice user. They just wasted an Encore on something that would be repeating moves anyway. My point was that both the Wobbuffet user and the opponent have to outpredict each other if either wants their moves to work the way they planned.

EDIT: Thanks Jiggy-Ninja.

Wrong wrong wrong.

Competent battlers will actually know how much damage is done to their Pokemon. "Oh look, PZ just did 50% more than it normally should...I should perhaps probably Mirror Coat now."
 
Because it applies more that usual in this case.

Let's say Wobb switches in on a Garchomp. On the switch, Chomp Swords Dances. It can 2HKO with EQ or SD then OHKO. Wobb needs to predict properly and use the right move, or lose.

Note: I don't know the exact numbers. Work with the situation as I assume it to be.
 
Wobbuffet stands out among the current ubers as the only one who is not a legendary Pokemon. In fact, he stands out among all Pokemon. He is one of only two fully evolved Pokemon to get no direct attacking moves, and unlike the other one, he can actually be effective. Too effective… or so the prevailing wisdom has been.

I propose that, having used Wobbuffet on my team in Shoddy Battle for a few months, he is not unfairly good. Make no mistake; Wobbuffet is a very good Pokemon. I consider him about as good as Blissey which most people consider one of the best Pokemon. However, that’s all the good he is. Wobbuffet is a very forcing Pokemon that can win you strong advantages, but he’s very limited. His rigid play style really limits the sort of teams that can be built around him, and you’d have to be braindead to not have a pretty good grasp of what he’s planning to do next once he comes in.

Most people just want to hear why he’s worse than he is in RSE. Here’s my list:

U-Turn - This move is a wonderful way to screw with Wobbuffet. He can Counter it to some effect, but it puts the decision making in the hands of the user and out of the hands of Wobbuffet.
Longer Taunt - Taunt users are scarier than ever; Gyarados’s spot at the helm of standard strikes fear into the heart of Wobbuffet.
Super choice items go! - Wobbuffet is way easier to 3HKO in DP than he was in RSE. In RSE, he could come in on weaker Pokemon all day and own them. In DP, these weaker Pokemon are much more scarce. The metagame is full of high power choice item users who smash through Wobbuffet. You need to use resistances to take hits well in DP, and Wobbuffet’s typing is pretty horrible for that.
Physical dark moves - These are the bane of all pure psychic types, Wobbuffet included.
Toxic Spikes - If these are on the field, your Wobbuffet is useless.

Really, Wobbuffet’s problem isn’t performing once he gets in but getting in. He has trouble against many common leads, and revenge killing never gets you ahead (ask Dugtrio). If you want to gain advantage, you eventually have to switch him in. Now, what do you bring him in on? Defensive Pokemon frequently have status moves that ravage him, and offensive Pokemon hitting you with a good hit on the switch quickly make you useless (you might get your kill, but you’ll be trading your fresh Wobbuffet for their used sweeper which is going down).

The one reason Wobbuffet seems broken is that most people don’t know how to fight him. Wobbuffet vs. Hippowdon really demonstrates it for me. Hippowdon users always seem to use Stealth Rock against Wobbuffet, and they are always bitter about my “uber”. However, if I rematch after explaining what they should do, it always turns out better for them. Hippowdon can 3HKO Wobbuffet with Earthquake, and just because his name is Hippowdon, he gets sand. If Hippowdon uses Earthquake on Wobbuffet’s Encore, he’ll get sand and make Wobbuffet useless, going down a Pokemon but really strengthening his position in the match. The only reason to ever use Stealth Rock against Wobbuffet is predicting a Counter, in which case you are just sweetening the deal for yourself (sand, SR, and a nearly dead Wobbuffet potentially).

Some smart fellow is probably going to say “Wobbuffet with Wish support”. Wobbuffet would like an awful lot of support. He wants grounded poison type support to get rid of Toxic Spikes (which will become way more common with him around). He wants Dugtrio to exploit his Encores for easy kills. He wants a powerful stat booster to take advantage of free turns otherwise. Now he wants Wish support? That’s 5/6 of your team spoken for before you’ve even considered dealing with threats and establishing your own; it’s completely impractical to build your whole team around Wobbuffet to give him all the support he really wants. At some point, you have to give up some of the support that Wobbuffet wants to make the rest of your team function, and that really helps curb how much Wobbuffet can accomplish. It makes sense; Wobbuffet being worth two Pokemon means nothing if he needs five team slots to make it happen.

Most people worry about countering Wobbuffet a great deal. You are right; there are no Wobbuffet counters. However, that’s just thinking about Wobbuffet incorrectly. Wobbuffet takes up a team slot, and he must accomplish the worth of killing one of his enemy’s Pokemon if he wants to break even. It’s perfectly reasonable to prevent him from doing this. After all, he’s a rare Pokemon that is worth pretty much nothing when his HP is low. Just wearing him down with someone is likely enough, and you can play prediction games with him to stretch out how much value you get for your Pokemon. You can use the large number of Pokemon against which he simply cannot win to keep him out and to force him to come in at times at which he will gain the least. The solution isn’t to “counter” him; the solution is to just play some Pokemon to make sure he doesn’t get what he wants.

In terms of how much I’ve actually been winning? Well, I have a pretty good score, but I like to think I’m no pushover as a battler. Most low skill players break on Wobbuffet like a ship against a craggy shoal, but better players force me to predict very carefully. If I guess right, I might go up a good deal, but if I guess wrong, Wobbuffet ends up accomplishing nothing making me lose both a Pokemon and all momentum in the match. I’m not the only one who favors Wobbuffet testing; Obi at least has frequently said that Wobbuffet is worse than Deoxys-e who we have recently unbanned. He really deserves a shot, and I hope people don’t take it too hard that the administration of shoddy battle has decided to cut out the pointless debate that never goes anywhere and get straight to testing. Congrats for making it through the post if you read it all, and happy Pokemon battling!

On a side note, there's no reason to be flaming Colin. I was the one who has been doing his best to get Wobbuffet unbanned. Colin doesn't even play Pokemon. Yes, the decision was ultimately his, but if you want someone to hate for this, make it me.
 
I brought the prediction factor into this because I was proving my point to the person that I quoted before, because they said that Wobbuffet could just screw over any pokemon at its leisure with Encore/the bounce back moves, even though that's not true at all since the only thing he doesn't have to predict perfectly against is Choice users.

A lot of people in this thread keep acting like Wobbuffet is indestructible and that it can just do whatever it wants once it's out, and I just merely proved that wrong with the prediction statement.

EDIT: The examples in AAs post were the kind I was talking about, such as the Hippo example.
 
Because it applies more that usual in this case.

Let's say Wobb switches in on a Garchomp. On the switch, Chomp Swords Dances. It can 2HKO with EQ or SD then OHKO. Wobb needs to predict properly and use the right move, or lose.

Note: I don't know the exact numbers. Work with the situation as I assume it to be.
Encore. If it's Swords Dance, switch to another Pokemon for free set up. If it's Quake, switch to a Flyer.

Chompy's screwed either way.
Wrong wrong wrong.

Competent battlers will actually know how much damage is done to their Pokemon. "Oh look, PZ just did 50% more than it normally should...I should perhaps probably Mirror Coat now."
If Porygon-Z was Speced, I could see that being used as an argument. However, if it just did normal damage, you would have no way of knowing if it held a Choice Scarf or some other item.
 
Good luck switching into said Choice user. Most of them will 2HKO Wobbuffet. This means you have to revenge kill it. What does that mean for a Pokemon like Wobbuffet?

Their sweeper killed your Pokemon, so you're down one. Your Wobbuffet takes a hit, and then kills their Pokemon. You're tied in terms of Pokemon, but there are two important advantages to the non-Wobbuffet user. First: Wobbuffet has just lost a lot of HP taking a Choiced hit. This means it can come in on even few Pokemon (because it needs to take even more damage to do anything). You are also giving a free turn to your opponent, because they can now decide who to bring into Wobbuffet (and there are several Pokemon a weakened Wobbuffet does not want to guess against).

Also Dugtrio wouldn't use Toxic on a Choice Band set. It would be better off with something like the following:

Dugtrio @ Life Orb
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Aerial Ace / Sucker Punch
- Stone Edge / Sucker Punch / Pursuit / Protect / Substitute

This has the added bonus of letting you do something to those annoying Blissey that spam Softboiled or Wish + Protect (also helps vs. Counter Blissey), and it means that the Moonlight Cresselia that thinks it can safely Charge Beam your incoming counter because Dugtrio can't touch Cresselia is going to die sooner rather than later. Adding in Substitute or Protect (I'd rather Substitute, but that can hurt with Life Orb damage) can make Toxic more effective but drop your offense.
 
Scarfed PorygonZ is unimportant to Wobbuffet as an itemless PorygonZ, so not knowing it was scarfed would make no difference.
 
Scarfed PorygonZ is unimportant to Wobbuffet as an itemless PorygonZ, so not knowing it was scarfed would make no difference.

Well see, Scarf'd Porygon-Z w/Adaptability still 3HKOs with Tri Attack, and it's something like 42% - 49% that Wobbuffet takes. If it switches in with Stealth Rock, even a Scarf-Z can 2HKO, so Wobbuffet is forced to come in on a revenge-kill, after Porygon-Z has ALREADY killed something on Wobbuffet's team. That's just a revenge-kill that's going to cost him about half of his own health if he Mirror Coats. Nothing special about that, except that he took damage while another revenge-killer wouldn't. Since his health is nerfed, that means that his ability to be a threat is really neutered.
 
Wob is wonderful... I'm seriously foaming at the mouth.

Wobtrio!

Wob... standard set

Dugtrio Standard set.

Seriously, encore a stat up and you get a kill. Or better yet... how many T-wavers are out there? Give him Evs to outspeed Stealth Rockers... theres another kill or...

Wobsmeargle...

Wob +

Smeargle @ Salac
Spore
Sub
Belly Drum
Baton Pass

just scout to make sure there are no priority moves left... then its game over. Belly pass to any physical sweeper you want.

Seriously people stop considering his use to countering moves... encore trap is much more useful and you will win battles if you abuse it.
 
Wob should definitely not be let in to standard for one simple reason: it's not fun to use and it's not fun to face. Wobbuffet is boring, cheap and extremely lame. It does have counters; it's actually pretty easy to counter, but it's about as fun as watching homosexual pornography.
 
Tsk, many of you like to overestimate Wobbuffet. It is true, it does seem a bit gamebreaking, but Bellyzard is easy to stop.

Ingredients:

- 1 Stealth Rock user
- 1 Ghost

Got these, survive, Bellyzard is stopped... for the most part. The fact that there are a shitload of new Choice Band users that are extremely threatening to Wobbuffet (Garchomp, Tyranitar) and the ever-new Choice Specs (Alakazam with Shadow Ball, Lucario with Dark Pulse / Shadow Ball, etc). is a lot to stop him. However, he isn't counterable, but many people can find a solution. If you seriously fear Wobbuffet, I advise what Amazing Ampharos has pointed out and put it to good use. The fact that Wobbuffet DID take a hit in D/P is something to consider.

- U-Turn is an absolute way to escape Wobbuffet with much ease, not only allowing a free hit, but a super effective hit nevertheless. It also allows you to send in a "counter" such as a Choice Band Tyranitar with Pursuit.

- Taunt is another that can put a stop on Wobbuffet. Nope, you can't Encore this move either, lucky you. =). Gyarados is one immense user of this, but in a way Tyranitar can use it decently. Some walls, such as Weezing and Gliscor, CAN use Taunt if they feel the need to. Of course, there are more than what I've listed. Weavile makes an okay user of it, provided that he can Swords Dance. Deoxys-S is the fastest Taunter, so he gets a mention. Crobat, fuck, even ALAKAZAM can learn Taunt. There's a crapload, and I'll even save you the time and list the fully evolved Pokemon that can learn the move:

- Raticate
- Nidoking / Nidoqueen
- Persian
- Primeape
- Alakazam
- Dodrio
- Muk
- Gengar
- Hypno
- Electrode
- Weezing
- Mr. Mime
- Jynx
- Gyarados
- Aerodactyl
- Mewtwo*
- Mew*
- Crobat
- Sudowoodo
- Umbreon
- Steelix
- Granbull
- Qwilfish
- Ursaring
- Skarmory
- Houndoom
- Tyranitar
- Mighteyena
- Gardevoir
- Slaking (Vigoroth can learn it too BTW)
- Exploud
- Sableye
- Mawile
- Aggron
- Sharpedo
- Grumpig
- Zangoose
- Seviper
- Crawdaunt
- Banette
- Chimecho
- Absol
- Glalie
- Deoxys*
- Infernape
- Bibarel (How?)
- Bastidon
- Floatzel
- Ambipom
- Mismagius
- Honchkrow
- Purugly
- Skuntank
- Chatot
- Spiritomb
- Drapion
- Toxicroak
- Weavile
- Electivire
- Magmortar
- Gliscor
- Gallade
- Probopass
- Dusknoir
- Froslass
- Azelf
- Heatran
- Darkrai*

* - Uber

That's a lot of Pokemon, seriously. Many of these learn a stat-up move (i.e. Swords Dance) or a stat-down move (i.e. Metal Sound). MANY Pokemon learn this, however, take note that they should be able to set up with a stat-up or down move or otherwise you could put yourself at a disadvantage.

- Baton Pass is another. A wierd example: Umbreon. He can Taunt AND Baton Pass AND Trap-pass. Evil eh?

- Choice Items. There is Choice Band and Choice Specs. Obviously, a heavy hit will do it. Choice Band Tyranitar is just one example.

- Life Orb. Okay, at first it doesn't seem like it, but think of it like this: an item that can still turn many 2HKOs into OHKOs are scary, and even Choice Band users can use this as an alternative to being locked onto one move.

- Shed Shell. Yup, this is a new item that's quite useful. Usually Steels use it, but Skarmory is still common, so hey, I guess it helps, right?

- Toxic Spikes. A big one for Wobbuffet, since he can't recover.

- Pursuit. If only you knew... but of course you have to be careful, since weak Pursuit users could get bit in the ass if they aren't careful.

A lot of things did nerf the use of him, as well as cancelling Shadow Tag on Wobby versus Wobby. There's another disadvantage. Still, it's a force to be reckoned with, but the majority of these things are on people's teams anyways. Still, I guess unbanning him for the time being may cause a small spike in Bellyzards and such, but are still stoppable.
 
You said anything with taunt counters it, but technically counter and mirror coat are offensive moves, thus unaffected by taunt, iirc?
 
True, but it DOES stop Encore, so you can still use Dragon Dance / etc. and basically make him set-up bait.
 
Wob should definitely not be let in to standard for one simple reason: it's not fun to use and it's not fun to face. Wobbuffet is boring, cheap and extremely lame. It does have counters; it's actually pretty easy to counter, but it's about as fun as watching homosexual pornography.

How many times have you actually faced Wobbuffet? How many times have you used Wobbuffet? I can bet it's none, because very few people have actually used Wobbuffet, since it hasn't been allowed, yet people are saying these things as if they've faced it all their life.

I'd say that Blissey isn't fun to use, and it's not very fun to face either, and also boring, cheap and extremely lame, and it has counters too. Doesn't mean it isn't allowed in standards though...

@Colonel M: I would highly recommend AGAINST sending in Tyranitar with Pursuit from a U-Turn, because if Wobbuffet used counter while U-Turn was happening, the Tyranitar coming in is going to have to suck up the damage from Counter, just U-Turn to a Ghost. Baton Pass works much better, and that's been something that's existed since ADV.
 
I think that Wobbuffet would be far more fair it it lacked Encore. RuSa completely screwed any hopes that Wobbuffet had of not being Uber by giving it this move. Basically Wobby can encore any move, no matter what it is; and then get a free switch to a resist/immune. Or, if the damage they dealt is low enough, Wobby can OHKO them back, and then encore something and switch.
 
Back
Top