I really hope Booster Energy ends up getting the boot, the Paradox Pokemon are easily the best new designs this gen and having most of them booted because of a busted item would be incredibly lame. Thank christ that FM is banned though.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Hey everyone, thewinner64 here. I’m an on-off OU ladder player, and enjoy playing it very much. I’ve been around for a while but never created an account on smog on until today, because I never felt strongly about many things happening in the meta.
Today that changes, though. The Houndstone ban instead of Last Respects, when looking at technical rulings, and no context, BARELY makes sense. When you add context, it makes NO sense. The technicality of Houndstone being banned instead of last respects because this is the first instance of the move being the pushing factor is asinine. The move only exists on that Pokémon so far, and will only exist on a singular other mon. It’s robbing a chance for Houndstone to exist in OU, and to be quite frank, even UU when the tiers take shape, all because of a singular reason. Additionally, the remaining Pokémon that will get the move later is going to be an even larger issue, which is apparent to anyone who has eyes and plays competitively at all. Basculegion has a speed boosting weather ability, just like Houndstone, Basculegion has a better stat distribution for a weather sweeper, with a higher speed and attack. Basculegion will have a second type to get stab from. Basculegion will also have access to 40 bp physical priority. Are we seriously going to go through this all again, but with rain, and then ban another Pokémon that isn’t necessarily overpowered, but has a singular move that is? At least with Dracovish, there were examples already in the game alongside it that showed the Pokémon had A bit more going for it than others with the move. There isn’t for Houndstone currently. There will be only one other mon with it this generation. It will be banned, too, with this faulty logic. This isn’t going to be a complex ban, it’s going to be a simple ban on a move. The council will reach this conclusion within a year, but in the mean time we’re going to ruin two different, cool, Pokémon’s chances at being in a meta that actually makes sense until then.
Today that changes, though. The Houndstone ban instead of Last Respects, when looking at technical rulings, and no context, BARELY makes sense. When you add context, it makes NO sense. The technicality of Houndstone being banned instead of last respects because this is the first instance of the move being the pushing factor is asinine. The move only exists on that Pokémon so far, and will only exist on a singular other mon. It’s robbing a chance for Houndstone to exist in OU, and to be quite frank, even UU when the tiers take shape, all because of a singular reason. Additionally, the remaining Pokémon that will get the move later is going to be an even larger issue, which is apparent to anyone who has eyes and plays competitively at all. Basculegion has a speed boosting weather ability, just like Houndstone, Basculegion has a better stat distribution for a weather sweeper, with a higher speed and attack. Basculegion will have a second type to get stab from. Basculegion will also have access to 40 bp physical priority. Are we seriously going to go through this all again, but with rain, and then ban another Pokémon that isn’t necessarily overpowered, but has a singular move that is? At least with Dracovish, there were examples already in the game alongside it that showed the Pokémon had A bit more going for it than others with the move. There isn’t for Houndstone currently. There will be only one other mon with it this generation. It will be banned, too, with this faulty logic. This isn’t going to be a complex ban, it’s going to be a simple ban on a move. The council will reach this conclusion within a year, but in the mean time we’re going to ruin two different, cool, Pokémon’s chances at being in a meta that actually makes sense until then.
I came here to point out a really good couple right now:
and 
Slowking has one Job here. Set Snow using Chilly Reception, then gettin the god damn hell out of there. Chilly Reception does just that, Icy Rock keeps Snow up a long time. I set Tera Typing to Ice for the potential 1.5 defense boost from Snow. Slack Off+Regenerator for Recovery, Future Sight for Future Sight Support, and T-Wave and Yawn support. This mon is just about providing support to the Team as much as possible, offensively and defensively.
Under Snow, this thing is BUSTED. Super effective hit from Kingambit? 2HKO. OHKO back with Body Press. Hero Palafin doesnt 1HKO, either. In fact, I have not met one Mon, nor one set, that OHKO this thing on its physical side. Body Press hits from a 513 defense stat and like a truck, and the amount of mons resisting BPress and Avalanche are pretty limited and a great amount of them wont even hit OU, so its safe to use. Rapid Spinto remove Hazards and Recover for Longevity, as well as Ice body.
and Slowking @ Icy Rock
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Chilly Reception
- Slack Off
- Future Sight
- Thunder Wave/Yawn
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Chilly Reception
- Slack Off
- Future Sight
- Thunder Wave/Yawn
Slowking has one Job here. Set Snow using Chilly Reception, then gettin the god damn hell out of there. Chilly Reception does just that, Icy Rock keeps Snow up a long time. I set Tera Typing to Ice for the potential 1.5 defense boost from Snow. Slack Off+Regenerator for Recovery, Future Sight for Future Sight Support, and T-Wave and Yawn support. This mon is just about providing support to the Team as much as possible, offensively and defensively.
Avalugg @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Ice Body
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Body Press
- Avalanche
Ability: Ice Body
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Body Press
- Avalanche
Under Snow, this thing is BUSTED. Super effective hit from Kingambit? 2HKO. OHKO back with Body Press. Hero Palafin doesnt 1HKO, either. In fact, I have not met one Mon, nor one set, that OHKO this thing on its physical side. Body Press hits from a 513 defense stat and like a truck, and the amount of mons resisting BPress and Avalanche are pretty limited and a great amount of them wont even hit OU, so its safe to use. Rapid Spinto remove Hazards and Recover for Longevity, as well as Ice body.
By that logic BW OU shouldn't have gotten rid of gems. I get that it's a different metagame, but just because not everything with it is crazy doesn't mean there aren't clear abusers who would be a lot more manageable without it.
Am I the only one who finds Imposter Ditto annoying to face? Because if you decided to Terasteralize your Pokemon and Imposter Ditto shows up, it will be of the Tera Type, as well as just copying every single of your stat boosts, making it extremely unfair to suddenly have your own setup used against you
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
Booster Energy is dumb but honestly you would need to make a hard case that it it truly broken on every Paradox mon. The only one that it pushes over the edge is Roaring Moon. Nothing else is truly pushing Booster Energy to its limits right now besides it. Regardless, I think that Roaring Moon is not the first priority for us to deal with: I think Cyclizer and Palafin take priority. Cyclizer in particular is such a dumb partner for Roaring Moon imo.
Also hot take, Chien Pao is good but the more I play with it, the more I think it isn't the biggest deal for bans. It is obviously good but I feel that it is just feasting on the meta at large. Hyper Offense is good, and it is one of the best revenge killers in the game right now. I honestly would advocate against quickbanning it. It probably is suspect worthy, but I think we have bigger fish to fry right now.
Also to everyone whining about Last Respects vs Houndstone, chillax. Once a certain HOME drop comes, chances are it will end up being banned instead of Houndstone.
Also hot take, Chien Pao is good but the more I play with it, the more I think it isn't the biggest deal for bans. It is obviously good but I feel that it is just feasting on the meta at large. Hyper Offense is good, and it is one of the best revenge killers in the game right now. I honestly would advocate against quickbanning it. It probably is suspect worthy, but I think we have bigger fish to fry right now.
Also to everyone whining about Last Respects vs Houndstone, chillax. Once a certain HOME drop comes, chances are it will end up being banned instead of Houndstone.
Also with Home, gonna RQ post my predictions.
Initial Banlist/Quickban: Landorus I, Spectrier, Urshifu S, Last Respects
Suspect: Magearna, Urshifu R, Zamazenta-C Drop
Good OU Pickups: Torn T, Lando T, Hoopa U, Volcanion, Greninja, Cinderace, Zapdos Galar,Heatran, Regieleki, Sneasler, Ursaluna, Basculegion, Enamorus, Lilligant H, Slowking G,
If Transfer Moves are Not Killed Good Pickups if not RIP: Zapdos, Mew, Rillaboom
Niche in OU potentially: Kleavor, Samurott H, Goodra H, Braviary H, Moltres G, Zarude
Initial Banlist/Quickban: Landorus I, Spectrier, Urshifu S, Last Respects
Suspect: Magearna, Urshifu R, Zamazenta-C Drop
Good OU Pickups: Torn T, Lando T, Hoopa U, Volcanion, Greninja, Cinderace, Zapdos Galar,Heatran, Regieleki, Sneasler, Ursaluna, Basculegion, Enamorus, Lilligant H, Slowking G,
If Transfer Moves are Not Killed Good Pickups if not RIP: Zapdos, Mew, Rillaboom
Niche in OU potentially: Kleavor, Samurott H, Goodra H, Braviary H, Moltres G, Zarude
Imposter Ditto is always good in the early meta when everyone is running HO. It is an HO pokemon that matches up exceedingly well into HO. That being said, there is a reason that Ditto tends to fall off despite how scary Scarf Ditto can be as the meta progresses. Once the meta is a bit less aggro, Ditto will no longer be as prominent.
You should really drop this internet tough guy act because it makes it hard to take what you are saying seriously.
But anyways, yes it is a "mechanic of your own creation". Pokemon Showdown is meant to simulate cartridge mechanics whenever possible. Having things like "we keep Terastalisation but information regarding what Tera types your Pokemon are is revealed to the opponent" goes against that idea, because that's not how it works in game. Even ignoring that philosophy, implementing something like that doesn't even address the issues that people have with the mechanic, even if you do it alongside a ban to Tera Blast.
That’s still a majority that are problematic with it, including 2-3 that would be fine in OU without it but are broken by it (plus Tera). Seems like a good enough reason for a ban to me.
I think if a pokemon is broken with booster energy, it's probably also broken in sun/e-terrain where it can abuse another, even better item instead. I'm not opposed to banning items in principle so, but I struggle to come up with an example of a paradox pokemon that's broken because of booster energy but completely fine on a sun or terrain team
Tera-on-team-preview is less mechanic breaking than Smogon's biggest competitive mod: sleep clause, which is impossible to implement correctly no matter what agreements players make in battle. Ideally, if sleep is uncompetitive, it would be banned instead of changing how it works, but the player base really hates that idea so we don't do it. Basically, we can definitely implement tera-on-team-preview if we feel like it will make the mechanic more competitive without resorting to a ban
I am someone who 100% believes the simulator should be as cartridge accurate as humanly possible. That being said, revealing tera types on team preview does not break this principle because it is something that is possible to implement while playing on the cartridge. We could imagine an irl SVOU tournament where participants submit team sheets with their tera types on it before battle. Other simulator mods like the battle log, PP tracker, and HP% mod are all also possible with a pen, paper, calculator, and an agreement between players to share information that the game normally wouldn't give at the end of each turn.
Tera-on-team-preview is less mechanic breaking than Smogon's biggest competitive mod: sleep clause, which is impossible to implement correctly no matter what agreements players make in battle. Ideally, if sleep is uncompetitive, it would be banned instead of changing how it works, but the player base really hates that idea so we don't do it. Basically, we can definitely implement tera-on-team-preview if we feel like it will make the mechanic more competitive without resorting to a ban
Looks like Tera is more of the issue here considering just how manym ons checks this thing. We probably should be addressing it before more mon bans considering how big of a part it plays in determining how to counter a mon.
You can't just ban things because a % of users are problematic with it, otherwise we'd be banning choice items every single gen. If you're going to ban an item or a move, it has to be something that fundamentally is uncompetitive on itself (see: the argument for Last Respects), and scream tail or iron jugulis or the ttar one that idc to check the name are completely fine. Which means its the other paradoxes which have a set that pushes them over the edge (whether that'd be boost energy or scarf or something else doesn't matter), or are just insane by themselves.
I wonder if Toxic Debris is affected by Magic Bounce, because it could make Espeon leads a reliable check to suicide Glimmora leads if it was
i agree with this post. people focus too hard on every single paradox having to broken with booster energy, i think it's reasonable to ban the item if it just makes like 4 or 5 of them really stupid. just like how moody isn't banned because remoraid or bidoof are ruining every game, or how arena trapped gets banned despite diglett and trapinch only really being technically abusers of it. maybe that's not how the ou council will think but it makes sense to me imo
well electric terrain teams aren't really a thing without tapu koko, i can't imagine any future paradox being broken by pincurchin of all things.
Over 50% of viable choice users are not broken by Choice items lol. Also I think the Gems argument works well here, so I’ll just second bogglywoods’ post.
The difference between Booster Energy and weather is that weather requires set up, and in a gen with other Paradox forms, that is either going to be a fight between having E-Terrain and Sun, or boosting your opponent's Pokemon as well as yours. Booster Energy is literally just a free boost on switch in, and especially when paired with a move like Acrobatics it's just completely unfair.
i am fully ready to snag the maushold analysis reservation the second the reservation index is posted
The reservation index has been up for a while, hasn't it?
Can we please ban any further mention of Houndstone/Last Respects until Home drops? New/casual players who're not familiar with the meta are arguing against the ban not knowijg even that it has always been done this way.
If people people want Houndstone that much, they can wait until Home drops. Till then, please discuss other mons, otherwise is derailing the thread.
I request the staff to take proper action whenever appropriate
If people people want Houndstone that much, they can wait until Home drops. Till then, please discuss other mons, otherwise is derailing the thread.
I request the staff to take proper action whenever appropriate
Generally speaking it’s only proper to discuss future action rather than dwell on the past here. But it’s day off and everyone is so hype with the new release still, so we are a tad lenient currently. In a few days, we will crackdown if and when needed.
i dont think so? all i see is the swsh reservation index (unless im just a blind dumb idiot)
Nvm I checked myself and Toxic Debris isn't affected by Magic Bounce, but can be prevented to be triggered with special attackers, so Magic Buonce Espeon can easily check a suicide Glimmora lead by virtue of Espeon hitting pretty hard on the special side
EDIT: Magic Espeon also outspeeds it, which isn't a surprise but can prevent Glimmora from doing virtually anything when it gets a turn: Can't even lay down Stealth Rocks because Espeon exists with Magic Bounce
EDIT: Magic Espeon also outspeeds it, which isn't a surprise but can prevent Glimmora from doing virtually anything when it gets a turn: Can't even lay down Stealth Rocks because Espeon exists with Magic Bounce
walter white falling gif
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