Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Finchinator]

Wow. 18 pages of an absolute shit-storm following Houndstone's ban.

As a part of the agency myself, I can see why people reacted the way they did in the comments of blunder's video, and also in this thread. However there's no need to be a dick about it. Basculegion will undoubtedly be quickbanned within 24 hours of Home's release, but the question is whether we should ban Last Respects the move or the Pokemon themselves. This is my proposition to the council, and they revolve around the NFE Pokemon, Basculin:

View attachment 467473​

Option 1: If Basculin is found to be broken with Last Respects, then Last Respects the move should be banned. Drop Houndstone and Basculegion out of Ubers.

Option 2: If Basculin is found to be balanced with Last Respects, then Houndstone and Basculegion should stay in Ubers.
____

Dracovish in Generation 8 would not be broken without Fishous Rend.

Yet the council decided to ban Dracovish the Pokemon.​

Why? Because banning Fishous Rend is unnecessary collateral damage to Arctovish.

Zygarde in Generation 7 would not be broken without Thousand Arrows.

Yet the council decided to ban Zygarde the Pokemon.​

Why? Because banning Thousand Arrows is unnecessary collateral damage to Zygarde-10%.

Based on the precedent Smogon has done with their tiering in the past, the smartest thing to do is wait until Pokemon Home comes out and see if Basculin is found to be broken, even with Last Respects. Banning Last Respects is not a complex ban. You're just banning a move.

If this is still too hard for you to understand, then I'm not sure what to say. I kept this post as simple as possible.

Thanks.

What’s most likely to happen right now is that if any other recipient of the move is broken, we will ban the move and unban both Pokemon. Obviously not promising anything right now, but we understand the pressure to preserve new Pokemon and believe that would roughly meet the burden of proof to free them and ban the move after discussing with tiering admin two days ago prior to the choice to vote on the Pokemon to begin with.

 

[Dive Missile]

not banning last respects because basculin is balanced with the move sounds like a huge technicality. if the move is broken on 3 fully evolved mons (i think basculegion-white stripe has different stats, not sure though) then that should be enough to prove the move is the problem. this situation to me kinda sounds like allowing trapinch to have arena trap and instead banning dugtrio and diglett to ubers, or letting gothita have shadow tag and instead banning gothorita and gothitelle to ag.

 

[The Funky Reason]

There have been plenty of people defending it from day one...

Honestly I just hate when discussions are done like this. This doesn't invalidate any of the points that are made for tera and just tries to invalidate the people that argue so

And instead of addressing any of the post you just stop there because you do not have answers to the post. And then you sit on your high horse and say "I have yet to see anyone with legitimate points against tera." Don't be so smug if you don't even read the opposing arguments.

To say that the big YouTubers don't have gigantic pull with their audiences is just denying reality. People are still butt hurt about speed boost on Blaziken because he always brings it up. Blunder literally almost singlehandedly got zamazenta into OU for a couple of weeks.

But you don't respond to people intelligently arguing against tera because that would be hard.

Like I said, I know a lot of players here have a hard on for offense, and I think offense loses harder to tera than balance. Never thought it was that bad when I have big fat blanket checks. On offense it made games incredibly stochastic and volatile.

I will quote my last post and see if I can get an answer from you.

" [Tera] is a stupid swing factor that adds so much stochasticity to the game for very little value. Yeah it's cute that you can use some creative sets but overall it makes so many sweepers get away with murder. Setting up my dark or fighting weak mon as opponent switches breloom or kingambit etc just to tera fairy to now resist priority and go for game is so dumb. Even if I don't go for game eliminating any of those can open the game out for other sweepers. Tera supporters, answer me, was my opponent bad for not predicting the tera and not mach/sucker punching? What if they predict tera and I don't and now they lost there prior user. Was he bad for not running sciz too to catch sweepers tera typing to avoid sucker and mach punch, the two most common forms of priority right now? ow BKC has a really good video about how most 50s/50s aren't, but these are true 50/50s and if the non tera player gets it wrong they nearly always lose the game. I know people in here say "that's good, it's more offensive" but I would argue that tera is both great for offense and sucks for offense. When I was playing balance, my defensive back bone was generally strong enough to weather the storm of a tera sweeper. On offense, one turn of resisting a priority move, followed by triple stab can be lights out very quickly. Once again, what is the point of keeping this crazy stochastic element? If you could sus out an item that let you tera it would likely be okay but nearly every turn until your opponent teras is a guessing game. This isn't even fixed by announcing teras, since until your opponent clicks that button any of there mons can tera at any point (doesn't make sense every turn but usually around half.) Tera is absolute trash and needs to go. People are way to attached to cartridge. Game freak does not balance the game with competitive in mind, let alone VGC. Final plea to tera supporters, do you want to see the many offensive threats that abuse it banned, or keep all of those mons and lose tera?"

I wonder if you will actually address the argument. Probably not though. But not a single person has a legit argument to get rid of tera obv.

 

[Finchinator]

Let’s remember that just because we disagree does not mean we need to be disrespectful. I’m sure people on every side just want to have fun here still!

Any future instances of personal attacks can result in deletion or infraction btw

 

[rosesscythes]

And instead of addressing any of the post you just stop there because you do not have answers to the post. And then you sit on your high horse and say "I have yet to see anyone with legitimate points against tera." Don't be so smug if you don't even read the opposing arguments.

To say that the big YouTubers don't have gigantic pull with their audiences is just denying reality. People are still butt hurt about speed boost on Blaziken because he always brings it up. Blunder literally almost singlehandedly got zamazenta into OU for a couple of weeks.

But you don't respond to people intelligently arguing against tera because that would be hard.

Like I said, I know a lot of players here have a hard on for offense, and I think offense loses harder to tera than balance. Never thought it was that bad when I have big fat blanket checks. On offense it made games incredibly stochastic and volatile.

I will quote my last post and see if I can get an answer from you.

" [Tera] is a stupid swing factor that adds so much stochasticity to the game for very little value. Yeah it's cute that you can use some creative sets but overall it makes so many sweepers get away with murder. Setting up my dark or fighting weak mon as opponent switches breloom or kingambit etc just to tera fairy to now resist priority and go for game is so dumb. Even if I don't go for game eliminating any of those can open the game out for other sweepers. Tera supporters, answer me, was my opponent bad for not predicting the tera and not mach/sucker punching? What if they predict tera and I don't and now they lost there prior user. Was he bad for not running sciz too to catch sweepers tera typing to avoid sucker and mach punch, the two most common forms of priority right now? ow BKC has a really good video about how most 50s/50s aren't, but these are true 50/50s and if the non tera player gets it wrong they nearly always lose the game. I know people in here say "that's good, it's more offensive" but I would argue that tera is both great for offense and sucks for offense. When I was playing balance, my defensive back bone was generally strong enough to weather the storm of a tera sweeper. On offense, one turn of resisting a priority move, followed by triple stab can be lights out very quickly. Once again, what is the point of keeping this crazy stochastic element? If you could sus out an item that let you tera it would likely be okay but nearly every turn until your opponent teras is a guessing game. This isn't even fixed by announcing teras, since until your opponent clicks that button any of there mons can tera at any point (doesn't make sense every turn but usually around half.) Tera is absolute trash and needs to go. People are way to attached to cartridge. Game freak does not balance the game with competitive in mind, let alone VGC. Final plea to tera supporters, do you want to see the many offensive threats that abuse it banned, or keep all of those mons and lose tera?"

I wonder if you will actually address the argument. Probably not though. But not a single person has a legit argument to get rid of tera obv.

Here's an answer from someone who actually agrees with you overall: they're not giving you the counter you say you crave not just because they don't have that answer, but because you're being standoff-ish and rude, particularly regarding people who may be in the wrong but ultimately love the game and want to see it thrive, and for whatever their faults do ultimately bring in more than they take away. You're not arguing, you're preaching. Calm the hell down. People want to give benefit of the doubt or find compromise not because they're blind or because they're supposedly more ignorant than you, but because they are innately curious about how things can shift with time and because they want to balance competition with fun, because this is a danged video game at the end of the day.

 

[Beaf Cultist]

The problem with your Salamence analogy is that all of those instances require some sort of trade-off. Yache Berry means you aren’t running a better boosting item, Choice Scarf means you can’t set up, etc. If it has defensive EVs then its not going to be as fast or as powerful.

That's literally the point that was being made lol. Also just wanna second the notion; the most broken part about Tera is how is has absolutely no opportunity cost. If it made you hold an item, always took a move slot, or only lasted for a couple turns (shakier on this one though), it wouldn't be nearly as contentious. But none of those are true, and scouting it is impossible to boot, so generally it's just not very competitive

edit: wait no I'm dumb, carry on.

edit 2:

But you don't respond to people intelligently arguing against tera because that would be hard.

holy shit man, cool it with the personal attacks

 

[Bugboy]

Now that pokeaim said he wants to keep tera there will be people coming out of the woodwork defending it. There just is no way tera is balanced or competitive in anyway.

It is a stupid swing factor that adds so much stochasticity to the game for very little value. Yeah it's cute that you can use some creative sets but overall it makes so many sweepers get away with murder. Setting up my dark or fighting weak mon as opponent switches breloom or kingambit etc just to tera fairy to now resist priority and go for game is so dumb. Even if I don't go for game eliminating any of those can open the game out for other sweepers. Tera supporters, answer me, was my opponent bad for not predicting the tera and not mach/sucker punching? What if they predict tera and I don't and now they lost there prior user. Was he bad for not running sciz too to catch sweepers tera typing to avoid sucker and mach punch, the two most common forms of priority right now? ow BKC has a really good video about how most 50s/50s aren't, but these are true 50/50s and if the non tera player gets it wrong they nearly always lose the game. I know people in here say "that's good, it's more offensive" but I would argue that tera is both great for offense and sucks for offense. When I was playing balance, my defensive back bone was generally strong enough to weather the storm of a tera sweeper. On offense, one turn of resisting a priority move, followed by triple stab can be lights out very quickly. Once again, what is the point of keeping this crazy stochastic element? If you could sus out an item that let you tera it would likely be okay but nearly every turn until your opponent teras is a guessing game. This isn't even fixed by announcing teras, since until your opponent clicks that button any of there mons can tera at any point (doesn't make sense every turn but usually around half.) Tera is absolute trash and needs to go. People are way to attached to cartridge. Game freak does not balance the game with competitive in mind, let alone VGC. Final plea to tera supporters, do you want to see the many offensive threats that abuse it banned, or keep all of those mons and lose tera?

I want to talk about something actually interesting, because the tera typing is a bunch of people coping about keeping it.

Chein pao is incredibly misunderstood right now. People don't understand the ability interacts multiplicatively with boosts. Someone else pointed it out on the leak thread with some nice calcs, that it works out that swords dance is quite a bit stronger than weavile while neutral isn't. It means don't do the boots shit. Pair it with one of the donphans that very reliably remove hazards and run life orb or band. Life orb off the rip is incredibly strong because of math and swords dance compounds this further. He is very, very strong. I have been spamming the shit out of that on balance. Sorry if saying "balance" made anyone in this thread vomit not everything in this game is offense (:

Blaming a poketuber for this like everyone else is incapable of forming their own opinions except you and people who agree with you lol. so disingenuous.

 

[boxlb]

I mean the opportunity cost of running a specific tera type is the same as running anything, no? It's not an argument in defense, but the cost is that you can't run a different tera type. For example, if I run normal tera on slowking to make it surprise-wall ghosts, than I'm not running a different type that it could enable it to instead wall grasses. Or am I misunderstanding the concept of opportunity cost?

 

[Beaf Cultist]

Or am I misunderstanding the concept of opportunity cost?

This is generally right, but my issue isn't with conflicting Tera types, it's with the fact that if you bring a mon that can Tera, and never Terastalize it, you lose literally nothing from its standard sets without Tera. So the opportunity cost for me is tied to Terastalizing itself, not so much what you do with that Tera.

 

[Ema Skye]

Just to add to the Last Respects discussion.

White Stripe Basculin and Basculegion are not in the game. None of the other Basculins that are in the game have access to it. We cannot tier off of unreleased content as it is subject to change, and tiering action is therefore speculative.

Right now, because Last Respects is Houndstone only, banning the move is essentially like banning part of Houndstone. Tiering policy discourages banning parts of Pokemon. It's why last gen there was a Galarmanitan ban, and not a Gorilla Tactics ban.

 

[Clefable]

I think Tera is ultimately uncompetitive

the ability to just change your typing or add an additional STAB boost on top of something that is already strong seems a bit broken and uncompetitive

I think it's a fun mechanic myself, but it's incredibly uncompetitive

The word uncompetitive has been used a lot in this thread, and in my opinion it's not a great way to characterize the issues with tera.

There are some elements of Pokemon that involve RNG determined by the game engine, which reduces skill expression from the players. These include evasion-boosting and OHKO moves, as well as flinch items and sleep moves.

From my point of view, tera is not uncompetitive in this sense. Each player gets one use of it per game, and its usage is completely deterministic. Terastalizing is a resource to be managed and used to best effect by both sides -- the essence of competition.

The issue with tera seems to be its unpredictability and strength:

I am all for keeping Tera if it can be demonstrated that it adds a layer of competitiveness and strategy but so far I have not seen any arguments to that point, and so far it has shown to add nothing but guesswork and unpredictability, far beyond any mechanic we’ve seen in the game so far.

[Tera] is a stupid swing factor that adds so much stochasticity to the game for very little value.

I just want to push back on this and say that unpredictability and randomness are not the same thing. Making a play with tera, whether the situation favors you or not, is an expression of skill, not of luck.

To put it another way, making a read on an opponent's tera type or terastalizing yourself to get/avoid a KO are moments when you outplayed your opponent. Getting a flinch or a high roll are not.

The most broken part about Tera is how is has absolutely no opportunity cost. If it made you hold an item, always took a move slot, or only lasted for a couple turns (shakier on this one though), it wouldn't be nearly as contentious. But none of those are true, and scouting it is impossible to boot, so generally it's just not very competitive

I agree with this sentiment, but I want to point out the obvious that the opportunity cost of tera is that once you do it, you can't do it again for the rest of the game (and your opponent can). It's like dynamax in that if the first person to use it fails to win the game off of it, the remaining player now has a big edge. I believe the issue with dynamax was not just that it was meta-warpingly strong, but that it was strong and boring.

Personally, I believe tera is strong, but not overly so, and the versatility of tera makes it worth keeping. The fact that the same mechanic can be used to give reach damage on a STAB move, provide coverage, or give a better defensive typing is really interesting to me. My hope is that like with megas, we will eventually see teams that are structured to make particular use of a tera user, like stall with Fairy Avalugg, or offense with Flying Roaring Moon.

 

[Jeune Homme]

As I explicitly said, it's likely we can ban the move when another Pokemon learns it and then both Pokemon get unbanned.

I'm a bit late (trying to catch up everything) but since basculin white-striped will get last respect as well with no STAB on it, what will happen if basculin turn out to be manageable (and basculegion + houndstone are broken)
Will LR be considered as inherently non-broken ?

 

[Thewinner64]

not banning last respects because basculin is balanced with the move sounds like a huge technicality. if the move is broken on 3 fully evolved mons (i think basculegion-white stripe has different stats, not sure though) then that should be enough to prove the move is the problem. this situation to me kinda sounds like allowing trapinch to have arena trap and instead banning dugtrio and diglett to ubers, or letting gothita have shadow tag and instead banning gothorita and gothitelle to ag.

This is actually a great point. Trapinch is not OU material, even with arena trap. Maybe diglett saw OU use with arena trap in the past, but according to the Smogon council’s own logic, Arena Trap should be unbanned and Dugtrio + diglett should be Ubers, because Trapinch, and Trapinch alone, is not broken with the ability.

 

[Finchinator]

I'm a bit late (trying to catch up everything) but since basculin white-striped will get last respect as well with no STAB on it, what will happen if basculin turn out to be manageable (and basculegion + houndstone are broken)
Will LR be considered as inherently non-broken ?

Then, yes. And the status quo will remain in tact.

This seems unlikely to me personally though.

 

[Worried]

I'd like to post some thoughts I've had on the debate over whether or not terastallizing should be banned. I think there are elements that feed into some people's reticence towards the idea to the point where the fairness of the mechanic may not be the only factor in whether they want it banned.

One such issue stems from tera being the main new gimmick of this generation. One commonly suggested solution to the tera ban debate is to have two metagames, in which one allows tera and the other forbids it. Other metagames beyond standard Smogon 1v1 exist, and in some cases thrive, so this seems like an option that gives everyone a chance to play what they want. However, when people play competitive Pokemon, it's because they want to play the actual game of Pokemon. Showdown as a simulator and Smogon's rules as a ruleset are popular because they represent a simple alternative/addition to the base game that ensures that the experience is the same that you can have playing on console. If the point of competitive Pokemon is to play actual the actual game of Pokemon Scarlet/Violet and not "last gen but with some new pokemon and moves hacked in", which of these two is closer to the base game? And therefore, which makes more sense as OU (and lower tiers) and which makes more sense to be one of the "Other Metagames"?

Another potentially significant problem with banning tera is that it's not something that can be enforced a priori. For things like banned pokemon or banned moves, you can look over someone's team ahead of time and confirm that nothing outside of the pre-decided rules is present. With tera, any battle that you play on console will have that shiny "TERASTALLIZE" button present for you to click no matter how you prepare your team; it's fully integrated into the game mechanics. If you're playing on the base game, a tera ban would only be enforceable after the battle starts. I think that is enough for it to fit a different sort of category to most other bans (unless the ban is instead a limitation on tera type, e.g. no same-type terastallizing). This is not to say that it can't be banned -- sleep clause has the same "issue" -- but coding such a ban into Showdown is another step away from what you'd find on console.

Just to be clear, I'm not personally arguing for or against a ban at all. I think it's way too early to say for certain, and my skill at the game isn't high enough to be particularly insightful on the mechanic's competitiveness. I can certainly see it being deemed to be untenable once we have more practice and experience with it and everything else that's new. I can also see a stable metagame forming with its inclusion, with unexpected tera types serving as creative options for anti-meta plays or for sets built as lures. My main point is that such a ban pushes the competitive scene further away from the actual game of Pokemon, and that will upset some people in a way that most other bans don't.

 

[fratelli bc]

So... Unfortunately, Tera looks broken.

And, IMO, there is no place for complex bans also.

"Ban Teras from the same type, to avoid Super Stab"

I agree super stab is dumb, but this is not even the main problem about Tera. The problem is the use of the mechanic by borderline broken pokemon that are usually countered by the lack of coverage or bad typing. It's like if Volcarona had received Scorching Sands last gen. But now, there are plenty of "Volcaronas" receiving necessary resists and/or coverage.

"Ban Tera Blast to avoid dangerous sweepers with coverage"

The move itself is perfectly fine without Tera. There is absolutely no reason to ban it. I feel this is just like trying to only medicade the symptons instead of treating the disease itself.

"Do some clause like Specific pokemon can't have specific tera types"

This is way too complex, and there will be lots of clauses if this accepted. I mean, there will be enough clauses to write a whole book at this point. Try to explain a begginer he can use Palafin, but only if it does not Tera into Grass, Electric or Ice. And with this, adds about 10 pokemon in this rule.

Any specifc clause looks complex or not enough and can be avoided by just testing/banning the whole mechanic itself. It has only been 3 days of this new meta, BTW. It needs more time to develop properly.

 

[ritch.]

Iron Bundle my beloved <3

 

[odt]

I'm surprised how few people are complaining about Gholdengo here. It's role compression is absurd and counter-play seems severely limited, especially considering the variety of sets it can run. It can be run on basically any team and does way, way too much to be healthy for the meta imo. I wish it was less over-tuned because it will absolutely become overcentralizing.

Booster Energy and Shed Tail seem like low-skill and game-breaking additions to me. I'm having fun with them but I think we should start using our brains again at some point in the near future.

 

[Bugboy]

So... Unfortunately, Tera looks broken.

And, IMO, there is no place for complex bans also.

"Ban Teras from the same type, to avoid Super Stab"

I agree super stab is dumb, but this is not even the main problem about Tera. The problem is the use of the mechanic by borderline broken pokemon that are usually countered by the lack of coverage or bad typing. It's like if Volcarona had received Scorching Sands last gen. But now, there are plenty of "Volcaronas" receiving necessary resists and/or coverage.

"Ban Tera Blast to avoid dangerous sweepers with coverage"

The move itself is perfectly fine without Tera. There is absolutely no reason to ban it. I feel this is just like trying to only medicade the symptons instead of treating the disease itself.

"Do some clause like Specific pokemon can't have specific tera types"

This is way too complex, and there will be lots of clauses if this accepted. I mean, there will be enough clauses to write a whole book at this point. Try to explain a begginer he can use Palafin, but only if it does not Tera into Grass, Electric or Ice. And with this, adds about 10 pokemon in this rule.

Any specifc clause looks complex or not enough and can be avoided by just testing/banning the whole mechanic itself. It has only been 3 days of this new meta, BTW. It needs more time to develop properly.

Not bad points but this logic does sidestep the commonly proposed solutions that are not particularly complex (tera list on team preview or separate metagame) and then proceeds to the conclusion of “can be avoided by just testing/banning the whole mechanic itself”.

 

[ElStefano]

This is generally right, but my issue isn't with conflicting Tera types, it's with the fact that if you bring a mon that can Tera, and never Terastalize it, you lose literally nothing from its standard sets without Tera. So the opportunity cost for me is tied to Terastalizing itself, not so much what you do with that Tera.

Yeah, same was true for Z-Moves. You don't have to use it, but it's a one trick pony that brings some free benefit. I see nothing wrong with that. I think very soon people will not be surprised so much by pokemon suddenly changing types anymore, since its somewhat predictable. Similar to formerly being prepared to Gyarados running Z-Flyingtype move and scouting instead of leaving your grass type in mindlessly, People will soon be prepared to the most common Terratypes. E.g. Iron Bundle carrying Terra Blast Fire. Luring the Terra lets you suddenly threaten it with your Palafins Jet Punch because the Opportunity Cost in this case is becoming a Fire type.

Imho this enriches not only teambuilding, but also competitive gameplay, because the decision when to use Terra and with which mon can decide games. Trying to use it for a sweep but the OP played around it? Now you cannot use it to make your Slowking a normal type anymore to wall his Dragapult, damn...

To add something besides those endlose terra discussions:

Has anyone here experimented with Trickroom? Seems very strong right now... I also didn't see a single Dugtrio or Gothitelle on the ladder. Maybe this Gen, Duggi will even stay OU because its stats are so bad in comparrision to the power creep and it has a hard time to remove something... and then
If people still find a way to abuse, I can imagine Terra Ghost will be spammed a lot more... Interesting times ahead =)

 

[Goodstyle]

Why do I see so many people naming their Palafins "All Might"? That pokemon is no hero, it's the undisputed villain of this new batch of Pokemon. You people should be calling that man "Homelander".

 

[Da Pizza Man]

A good rule of thumb as moderators of a game is to hear people out and work to tame something instead of claiming that it's "bending over backwards". "Hey bro my DNite is a Fire type" which is answerd by "Yeah bro". Wording it as compelling is also dishonest, it's the fact that it can be worked with rather than DMax which was just plain absurd. Sleep Clause had, not has btw. No one looks to 97 or Stadium as the standard for play, especially when you see sleep in ORAS BSS or BW as a whole

If you are putting that many restrictions on a mechanic, then yes you are bending over backwards to preserve it. We already did this dance with Aldaron's proposal back in Gen 5, and it's one of the reasons why that gen is in such a horrible state nowadays.

If Tera proves to be problematic as the metagame develops more, then do you really want to be spending that much time on trying to preserve it, which takes up quite a bit of valuable time (That could be spent on focusing on other issues) just try to balance it, or do you just want to cut the head of the snake and be done with it?

Something that I also think may be worth mentioning is that a flat out ban to Tera would be far easier for newer players to understand than a restricted Tera with a bunch of clauses attached to it. What do you think is easier for the fresh 1000 ELO player to understand?

- Tera is banned
- Tera is allowed, but you can't Tera into a type you already are and you have to reveal what Tera types everything is at the start of the battle. Oh and also Tera Blast is banned.

This might seem relatively unimportant, but you have to remember that attracting new players is vital to Smogon's growth and preservation. Having incredibly complicated clauses like this is very off putting for a lot of newer players, because part of what attracted them to Pokemon in the first place is its simplicity.

 

[Beaf Cultist]

Yeah, same was true for Z-Moves.

Z-Moves took an item slot

also pretty sure trapping was banned from the beginning of the gen this time around, but don't quote me on that.

 

[Msousagamer]

I'm a bit sad to see that people would rather argue about basculegion that isn't in the game yet rather than just accepting the doggo is gone. I'm glad I'm not restricted to run a normal type in order to beat that thing anymore, it restricted team building a bunch. If you are sad about the cute doggo, wait for the home and he is probably back, you have plenty of mons to try for now, use the paldean tauros as physical walls or smt

 

[Galvanatic]

I'd like to post some thoughts I've had on the debate over whether or not terastallizing should be banned. I think there are elements that feed into some people's reticence towards the idea to the point where the fairness of the mechanic may not be the only factor in whether they want it banned.

One such issue stems from tera being the main new gimmick of this generation. One commonly suggested solution to the tera ban debate is to have two metagames, in which one allows tera and the other forbids it. Other metagames beyond standard Smogon 1v1 exist, and in some cases thrive, so this seems like an option that gives everyone a chance to play what they want. However, when people play competitive Pokemon, it's because they want to play the actual game of Pokemon. Showdown as a simulator and Smogon's rules as a ruleset are popular because they represent a simple alternative/addition to the base game that ensures that the experience is the same that you can have playing on console. If the point of competitive Pokemon is to play actual the actual game of Pokemon Scarlet/Violet and not "last gen but with some new pokemon and moves hacked in", which of these two is closer to the base game? And therefore, which makes more sense as OU (and lower tiers) and which makes more sense to be one of the "Other Metagames"?

Another potentially significant problem with banning tera is that it's not something that can be enforced a priori. For things like banned pokemon or banned moves, you can look over someone's team ahead of time and confirm that nothing outside of the pre-decided rules is present. With tera, any battle that you play on console will have that shiny "TERASTALLIZE" button present for you to click no matter how you prepare your team; it's fully integrated into the game mechanics. If you're playing on the base game, a tera ban would only be enforceable after the battle starts. I think that is enough for it to fit a different sort of category to most other bans (unless the ban is instead a limitation on tera type, e.g. no same-type terastallizing). This is not to say that it can't be banned -- sleep clause has the same "issue" -- but coding such a ban into Showdown is another step away from what you'd find on console.

Just to be clear, I'm not personally arguing for or against a ban at all. I think it's way too early to say for certain, and my skill at the game isn't high enough to be particularly insightful on the mechanic's competitiveness. I can certainly see it being deemed to be untenable once we have more practice and experience with it and everything else that's new. I can also see a stable metagame forming with its inclusion, with unexpected tera types serving as creative options for anti-meta plays or for sets built as lures. My main point is that such a ban pushes the competitive scene further away from the actual game of Pokemon, and that will upset some people in a way that most other bans don't.

I think how we look is a valid concern, but that and purity to the base game are ultimately secondary to making the most competitive "main metas" possible. Plus an OM would be alternatives to our metas, not primarily the base game.

Having a separate Tera meta would be a good course of action for people who liked it, in the event where Tera is banned (after letting the meta settle, of course).

Why do I see so many people naming their Palafins "All Might"? That pokemon is no hero, it's the undisputed villain of this new batch of Pokemon. You people should be calling that man "Homelander".

Facts; dolphins are demons cosplaying as animals and Palafin is just that explained by a children's game.