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I feel like we should lay off of Finch a little. Being the public face of the OU Council during the first week of a new generation is legitimately probably up there on the list of “most stressful jobs on Earth” (especially because he’s, you know, not getting paid for it).
I feel like we should lay off of Finch a little. Being the public face of the OU Council during the first week of a new generation is legitimately probably up there on the list of “most stressful jobs on Earth”.
Yeah I am sure its probably stressful and I know he's hard at work on the on the radar post so yeah I won't be asking him much...
You know though, the broken flutter mane, iron bundle, chien pao, palafin-hero, shed tail meta is something I am going to kinda miss, but for the sake of OU being healthy I will be glad when they are gone so we can look at stuff like terastal.
I feel like we should lay off of Finch a little. Being the public face of the OU Council during the first week of a new generation is legitimately probably up there on the list of “most stressful jobs on Earth” (especially because he’s, you know, not getting paid for it).
This has been an incredibly stressful four days (and I have to regularly remind myself that it has only been four days); I have uprooted a lot of my normal routines to shift focus on the development of the tier, too.
But with such an awesome, dedicated playerbase, you guys deserve commitment and transparency from leadership!!! We have not always had that historically and it is my goal to bring it as long as I am entrusted to be the leader.
I really think the appreciation goes both ways, even if it can be thankless at times on the end of contributors. I just hope you guys remember this and remember there are actual people behind the decisions being made, even if some are not always agreeable for you!
I already made a post about the mons on sun but I want to elaborate
ngl sun feels extremely good
torkoal itself is an excellent utility mon and physical wall for things like meowscarada and even palafin, great tusk and slither wing with an attack boost are extremely powerful, chi-yu is nuclear with the 50% boost to fire movs, etc
asides from chi-yu and protosynthesis, there are plenty of benefits to the weather itself
the water-weakening of sun is extremely, extremely useful defensively
it allows things like plume torkoal and specs dragapult to actually beat bulk up palafin, and in general allows your team to be capable of switching into iron bundle without a blissey
my usage of sun has actually shifted my opinion towards not thinking iron bundle could be banworthy when so many are clamoring for action to be taken on it right now
essentially, I think sun is excellent and should be used more, especially with flutter mane banned and houndstone's absence leaving sand in the dust, as it allows your team to have both a supremely effective offensive presence while being able to better switch into many strong attackers in the meta, specifically the waters
and also yea thank you finch for being so active with sv
I wonder what UU and RU will look like with the Tera mechanic and with Pokemon like Revaroom, Brambleghast, Dachsbun and Mabosstiff, which I've yet to heard as to what kind of sets people can come with
Would something like Palafin or Roaring Moon be retested following an eventual tera ban (were it to happen)? From what I can tell both of these mons are fairly reliant on tera for success, so what will the approach be if they are banned and tera is eventually given the boot?
Would something like Palafin or Roaring Moon be retested following an eventual tera ban (were it to happen)? From what I can tell both of these mons are fairly reliant on tera for success, so what will the approach be if they are banned and tera is eventually given the boot?
TBD — something as extreme as Flutter Mane may not be, but if a vote was close, it may be more likely. This also could be the type of situation where there aren’t immediate retests, but Pokemon are reintroduced during a Home or DLC type of release and given another fair shot at OU while not taking up weeks of otherwise lost time on a formal retest.
That’s a gray area we may or may not ever have to waltz our way into right now, so I’m not too worried about it until it becomes a reality if it ever does.
Being real I wish that only iron bundle and palafin were banned. Others don't feel as good and being real I wanted some time in the ladder without those 2 to see how others adapt to this change. Chien-Pao hasn't felt as much of a problem to me so far and although I believe right now Iron Valiant is the strongest contender to be banned after those 2, I doubt he is as much of a threat as cyclizar and being honest there are reliable checks in the tier since his best set right now is probably the special one, and mons like unburden skeledirge, unburdern clodsire (Which will rise a lot in usage as soon as those 2 are gone), gholdengo and others seem to do pretty well against it. Roaring moon you can argue that it's strong, but it usually has to setup to be reliable and you almost always need to waste your tera on him to be able to use it well. Not only that as if you tera steel you still keep your weakness to fighting, and if you tera flying you steel keep your weakness to ice. Making it always keep a weakness no matter what it tries to do. Not only that as there are many mons who force him to tera or he gets beaten, so wasting something as important as tera on him all the times is kinda bad. Tera is way more balanced than I thought inicially, you must be careful and keep it for the best time and throwing it away can give your opponent an advantage, so it's another cool layer when playing and I'm really enjoying it to fix my pokemon's problems on typing and lack of firepower. As the meta evolves I believe this will be more balanced and I believe people are only so eager to ban it right now because they are comparing it to dynamax, on a metagame that has nothing to do with the one Dynamax was in.
Being real I wish that only iron bundle and palafin were banned. Others don't feel as good and being real I wanted some time in the ladder without those 2 to see how others adapt to this change. Chien-Pao hasn't felt as much of a problem to me so far and although I believe right now Iron Valiant is the strongest contender to be banned after those 2, I doubt he is as much of a threat as cyclizar and being honest there are reliable checks in the tier since his best set right now is probably the special one, and mons like unburden skeledirge, unburdern clodsire (Which will rise a lot in usage as soon as those 2 are gone), gholdengo and others seem to do pretty well against it. Roaring moon you can argue that it's strong, but it usually has to setup to be reliable and you almost always need to waste your tera on him to be able to use it well. Not only that as if you tera steel you still keep your weakness to fighting, and if you tera flying you steel keep your weakness to ice. Making it always keep a weakness no matter what it tries to do. Not only that as there are many mons who force him to tera or he gets beaten, so wasting something as important as tera on him all the times is kinda bad. Tera is way more balanced than I thought inicially, you must be careful and keep it for the best time and throwing it away can give your opponent an advantage, so it's another cool layer when playing and I'm really enjoying it to fix my pokemon's problems on typing and lack of firepower. As the meta evolves I believe this will be more balanced and I believe people are only so eager to ban it right now because they are comparing it to dynamax, on a metagame that has nothing to do with the one Dynamax was in.
The vote is not for 3-4 days, the metagame is only 3-4 days old itself, and opinions have formed and flipped plenty in that time span.
It’s entirely reasonable to keep an open mind on other Pokemon given this elapsed time, only to make the most informed decision when the vote comes around. That’s what I shall do.
Roaring moon is interesting. The nerf to booster makes it lose some OHKOs it used to have, but it might have more space to breathe if palafin and iron bundle get the boot.
I've also been having fun with curse dondozo:
Chef (Dondozo) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Water (Steel)
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Body Press
- Curse
- Earthquake
There's probably a way better set for this, but this is what I'm running to experiment at first. Main weakness is iron bundle freeze dry, but other than that, it can sit on some pretty scary mons, especially after a curse (or two if you're greedy or got an opening LOL).
It's especially a pretty neat Palafin check that ignores the BU set + can survive some nasty hits.
252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Liquidation vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Dondozo: 111-132 (22 - 26.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (do people even run CB palafin? just picked this example as an extremely powerful attack lol)
You can probably run boots to keep your dondozo healthy through the match, but I find that passive recovery is just too good (and you should probably be running a p-donphan form).
You could swap liquidation for wave crash, but I think it hurts dondozos ability to withstand hits. Body press is nice for baxcalibur and chien pao, since it'll need less boosts to kill than the other moves. I used to run Earthquake, but I found myself seldom clicking it since there's not a lot that you wouldn't just click body press or liquidation for. I've slotted protect for now, but you could run chilling water to give an opening to another mon to get in a bit safer, maybe (nerf would be irrelevant for yourself unless you're running water veil though).
I run tera water for more nuclear liquidations, but you could also run Steel to bait a freeze dry iron bundle. Probably a bit risky, and easier to pull off if you have one curse to OHKO it
Sorry if this isn't that useful/interesting, or if I got something wrong!
Edit: Not sure if it's worth mentioning, but another mon that Dondozo struggles with is Breloom. It's doable if you get 2 curses and are in good health, but very risky imo. Also needs the boosts to OHKO it back. It can be done, but you need to play very carefully (and you're better off saving your dondozo to other threats imo).
You know though, the broken flutter mane, iron bundle, chien pao, palafin-hero, shed tail meta is something I am going to kinda miss, but for the sake of OU being healthy I will be glad when they are gone so we can look at stuff like terastal.
Oh, no one’s gonna miss it more than me. I’ve been consistently winning by just stacking the 6 biggest problems on my team without any regard to teambuilding or strategy and I am not looking forward to having to use my brain again.
I am likely to be voting ban on Palafin and Iron Bundle, which will be added to the radar, during the next slate later this week. I am considering others as well, but largely undecided.
3 days since release date nothing should be claimed broken or banned it's all fair game, we're in uncharted territory where's the fun in saying somethings banned/broken, get creative and find some solutions that's what makes Pokémon fun
Roaring moon is interesting. The nerf to booster makes it lose some OHKOs it used to have, but it might have more space to breathe if palafin and iron bundle get the boot.
I've also been having fun with curse dondozo:
Chef (Dondozo) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Water (Steel)
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Body Press
- Curse
- Earthquake
There's probably a way better set for this, but this is what I'm running to experiment at first. Main weakness is iron bundle freeze dry, but other than that, it can sit on some pretty scary mons, especially after a curse (or two if you're greedy or got an opening LOL).
It's especially a pretty neat Palafin check that ignores the BU set + can survive some nasty hits.
252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Liquidation vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Dondozo: 111-132 (22 - 26.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (do people even run CB palafin? just picked this example as an extremely powerful attack lol)
You can probably run boots to keep your dondozo healthy through the match, but I find that passive recovery is just too good (and you should probably be running a p-donphan form).
You could swap liquidation for wave crash, but I think it hurts dondozos ability to withstand hits. Body press is nice for baxcalibur and chien pao, since it'll need less boosts to kill than the other moves. I used to run Earthquake, but I found myself seldom clicking it since there's not a lot that you wouldn't just click body press or liquidation for. I've slotted protect for now, but you could run chilling water to give an opening to another mon to get in a bit safer, maybe (nerf would be irrelevant for yourself unless you're running water veil though).
I run tera water for more nuclear liquidations, but you could also run Steel to bait a freeze dry iron bundle. Probably a bit risky, and easier to pull off if you have one curse to OHKO it
Sorry if this isn't that useful/interesting, or if I got something wrong!
Edit: Not sure if it's worth mentioning, but another mon that Dondozo struggles with is Breloom. It's doable if you get 2 curses and are in good health, but very risky imo. Also needs the boosts to OHKO it back. It can be done, but you need to play very carefully (and you're better off saving your dondozo to other threats imo).
This post makes me think that leftovers protect might be playable for dozo (probs with tspikes support). No clue haven’t tried it, but you don’t really care if they set up when you protect since you are unaware. Allows for a more flex moveset than rest talk.
Chef (Dondozo) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Water (Steel)
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Body Press
- Curse
- Earthquake
There's probably a way better set for this, but this is what I'm running to experiment at first. Main weakness is iron bundle freeze dry, but other than that, it can sit on some pretty scary mons, especially after a curse (or two if you're greedy or got an opening LOL).
It's especially a pretty neat Palafin check that ignores the BU set + can survive some nasty hits.
252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Liquidation vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Dondozo: 111-132 (22 - 26.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (do people even run CB palafin? just picked this example as an extremely powerful attack lol)
You can probably run boots to keep your dondozo healthy through the match, but I find that passive recovery is just too good (and you should probably be running a p-donphan form).
You could swap liquidation for wave crash, but I think it hurts dondozos ability to withstand hits. Body press is nice for baxcalibur and chien pao, since it'll need less boosts to kill than the other moves. I used to run Earthquake, but I found myself seldom clicking it since there's not a lot that you wouldn't just click body press or liquidation for. I've slotted protect for now, but you could run chilling water to give an opening to another mon to get in a bit safer, maybe (nerf would be irrelevant for yourself unless you're running water veil though).
I run tera water for more nuclear liquidations, but you could also run Steel to bait a freeze dry iron bundle. Probably a bit risky, and easier to pull off if you have one curse to OHKO it
Sorry if this isn't that useful/interesting, or if I got something wrong!
This has been one of the mons I ran the most and I must say it is quite amazing. I had games where I lost 3 mons to a dondozo and then my curse dondozo only didn't win the game cause it got crit. This pokemon is quite amazing but I have a few suggestions. First of all I understand why run curse with 3 attacks since you're running an adamant max atk, but I highly believe that it's way safer to setup with a dondozo that has more special bulk and can heal itself better. I'm not saying this set is bad but it gets beaten by toxic/toxic spikes pretty well, and if taken too much chip damage you are not gonna end up threatning anything. An amoonguss could work around that set pretty well with a giga drain and spore/toxic.
I sent a bunch of possible walls for the tier some time ago which many are slowly becoming more viable as mons are gone, but the set I usually like to use is this:
Rest talk can give it the longevity it needs to setup and win a whole game instead of one or two mons because it got too worn down by chip damage and status. A burn for example would hurt that dondozo bad and some mons are starting to run it, even dragapult. Like this you can pretty much end what could be a loss on this mon. I use grass tera because thunderbolds and grass type attacks can try to end it, meowscarada is a great counter for example and giving him another move can solve such problems if you struggle to wall them. It's true the deliberd counters it hard but he is probably gonna go soon so that won't be a problem. Btw this mon is really matchup dependant, sometimes you win before you even sent the mons and you're just playing for cortesy. Lead Palafin and glimmora can be a good way to start by setting up this mon btw, but watchout for other unaware mons, although most you can handle.
3 days since release date nothing should be claimed broken or banned it's all fair game, we're in uncharted territory where's the fun in saying somethings banned/broken, get creative and find some solutions that's what makes Pokémon fun
I’m fine letting things that are likely broken remain. But things that make the entire game unplayable and unfun without any forms of counterplay ruin the new toy experience for everyone. There’s a way to get the most out of these releases and it tends to not just be “do nothing”, but rather being a tad minimalist and more practical for the first stretch
(I edited this like 3 times holy sh** I'm typing the wrong stuff a lot lmao)
Leftovers protect might not heal enough, although I understand and it can be a good idea, but also doesn't solve status problems. Besides you're using a moves which it might need.
Also tspikes is getting worst and worst with poison types raising in viability. Fairy and fighting are quite common rn and they counter them.
This post makes me think that leftovers protect might be playable for dozo (probs with tspikes support). No clue haven’t tried it, but you don’t really care if they set up when you protect since you are unaware. Allows for a more flex moveset than rest talk.
Keeping t-spikes is a bit harder than I'd like, but if you do it makes dondozo stay longer for the reasons you've said. Spikes is a bit more consistent I feel, but I might try a glimmora + dondozo team since you've mentioned it. Right now I tend to use clodsire toxic + spikes, but two unaware users might be redundant, idk
I don't like rest talk dondozo, it makes it more of a momentum sap than it usually is.
I want to move the conversation away from individual Pokémon to ask a question about how the new metagame aspects (i.e. deletions) feel?
How has the widespread removal of Scald affected your battle quality? Does it feel better? Worse? How has the removal Scald affect how players pilot bulkier teams?
Has the decreased distribution of Knock Off affect your teambuilding approach compared to last generation?
Has the Defog distribution nerf affect your ability to put hazard removal onto your team, or have you been handling fine regardless?
So I wanted to weigh in on tera as someone who doesn't interact with the forums much, but would still consider themselves fairly well versed in competitive singles. I've been playing by Smogon rules for ~10ish years just for context, but gen 9 showcases such a large shift in design philosophy that idk how much that matters, truthfully.
I do want to say I know that this post will be long, but I want to articulate myself fully on this, and frankly, I know I'm fighting an uphill battle against community consensus.
That said, I am strongly against any action on Tera, on the grounds that I find pro-ban arguments to be inherently flawed, at least at this stage. Before I elaborate, I want to be sure I understand the argument, so if any pro-ban sides want to correct my understanding, feel free.
As I understand it, the pro-ban argument goes something like this: Tera is uncompetitive because there's too much hidden information, which therefore leads to guesswork that ultimately takes agency out of the hands of the player and leaves the winner of any given match up to chance as opposed to skill. Again, I'm not trying to oversimplify or leave anything out, but this is the argument as I understand it. And if I do indeed understand correctly, there is clearly a huge hole in this line of thinking, and that hole is literally every gen before gen 5.
I don't mean to be rude but if you think a lack of knowledge on your opponents full capabilities is automatically uncompetitive, then I'd love to see your reaction when you find out about Late Game Luke, or any of the other several dozen scenarios that a new player might find unfair in DPP all because they weren't experienced enough to properly read the gamestate. I think it's an extremely difficult argument to make that Tera-type is somehow more hidden than quite literally obscuring my opponent's entire team. And yet in generations with no team preview, it's the same players that are winning, and they are winning a lot. Not to downplay the accomplishments of any newcomers to old gens, but it's clear that oldheads have a very solid grasp on the concept of playing with incomplete information.
Playing with incomplete information certainly increases the skill level required to compete on a serious level, and that skill is difficult to master for many, but it is objectively a skill and we already decided it was a competitive one at that four generations ago. If I said to a gen 3 main "Aerodactyl, Skarmory, Flygon" they'd almost certainly respond along the lines of "Swampert, Zapdos, Ttar." If you know you know. It's perfectly reasonable that in a few years when I say to a Gen 9 player "Amoonguss, Corviknight, Quagsire" they might respond "Water/Dragon/Poison" or w/e. It's far too soon to just call Tera "random chance" just because players have to deal with something they aren't full accustomed to. Gamefreak has done basically nothing but inflate the numbers since gen 4. In light of that, it's no wonder that Tera feels so foreign to so many people, but that does not make it uncompetitive.
I want to be clear, I'm open to the possibility that Tera is totally uncompetitive, as should be anyone who is currently in the anti-ban camp. Still, the pro-ban side has a lot of work to do in my eyes, and it's clear that a lot people even just in this topic alone feel similarly. The ability to predict unknown information based on context and current gamestate was undeniably a necessary skill pre-gen 5 and no one was calling the need for this skill "inherently uncompetitive" back then as many people in this very thread have decided to do now.
Furthermore, I strongly believe this perceived "random" nature of Tera has more to do with the fact that no one really knows what tf half these mons do. Gamefreak Thanos snapped 90% of competitive OU/VGC; I seriously challenge anyone reading this to pop open the builder right now and name me 10 mons that had any real business in Gen 8 OU. Discounting the usual suspects (Fin/Bundle/Moon etc.) and a few other standouts, most of the roster looks like it belongs at the NU class of 2020 reunion not Gen 9 OU. Point is, I honestly don't know how anyone can confidently say much of anything about this meta, let alone with their whole chest like some people have, on both sides of the argument.
I realize I'm being very critical of the pro-ban side so let me extend an olive branch here. I understand that there's been a lot of poor arguments from the anti-ban side too. Whether Tera is fun or interesting (let's be real, it's a bit of both tbh) has nothing to do with whether or not it should be legal in gen 9. I think that anyone who wholesale claims Tera is for sure competitive is just as wrong as anyone who is acting like Tera is a done deal. So if I can admit that, can the anti-ban ban side please stop acting like they are this all-knowing force when it come to a metagame where goddamed Noivern is the second best defogger in the game. I just don't see how anyone could claim to know anything about a game where like 15 of the mons are straight out of Radical Red's final boss and the rest are a compilation of RU's greatest hits. How is anything common knowledge about Tera when it's not even common knowledge that Dunsparce is now P2 with Glare+rocks. There are extremely basic things about this game that we as a community don't know, and you expect me to believe that anyone has seriously mastered Tera to the point of having a real, informed opinion on a mechanic so deep? Myself included ofc.
When all is said and done I truly hope council just lets it rock for a bit. It could be shit in the end, in which case fine ban it, but it could also a breath of fresh air. It's not like Dynamax where the mechanic was exactly as it seemed on the surface. There's undeniably so much more going on with Tera, it would be a shame to not even give it a serious chance on the word of week one nay-sayers, many of whom are frankly actively refusing to interact with the mechanic after taking one "cheap loss" on ladder. This is not all pro-ban posters, obviously, or even anyone in particular for that matter. Either way I kinda hope Council is in a position to weigh in on this sooner rather than later. Even just "hey we are/are not gonna let Tera ride deal with it" would go a long way in giving discussion a sharper focus, I think.
This post is kinda long already, but I'd like to add a few other anti-ban points that I'd be happy to articulate on further if necessary.
The first point is anecdotal, but I do think it's important to note, especially if others have been having a similar experience. Personally speaking, I have never once lost a game to this "defensive Tera on offensive mon" thing that has been brought up over and over in this thread. Not saying I'm the goat either, I've definitely been rolled in Gen 9 a number of times. Got smoked by Bundle (please ban) at least 2-3 times basically off rip earlier today in fact. That in mind, I've generally found that it's perfectly reasonable to either:
A.) Pigeon-hole my opponent into using Tera just to survive then counter-sweep
or
B.) Fuck up their offense with a support-Tera like Amoonguss-Water on balance to lure Chi-Yu/Chien-Pao/Whoever if I should happen to be particularly weak to that specific threat
or
C.) Outright win because it's a new gen and they didn't have a real answer to my offense/defense to begin with
Similarly, I felt that one of the three above scenarios always applied to games I have lost as well, so I'm not just saying that because I'm that guy or w/e
Option A is pretty straightforward. Oh, you went Tera-Flying on RM to resist Mach Punch? Cool now I Bullet Punch sweep for sure, or Iron Bundle sweep for sure, or Quagsire sweep for sure, or w/e my gameplan happens to be. There is no good team that would have only one answer to a top tier threat like Roaring Moon in the context of any OU meta, so if your one and only check doesn't work out, you were kinda asking for it.
Option B even has the bonus of effectively removing the lured threat as a potential Tera mon. No one is going to Tera a para'd Chi-Yu, so I as a player who is thinking in terms of Tera no longer have to consider the threat of a Flamethrower sweep, assuming I built my team even remotely well. If my opponent's only win-con was that Chi-Yu, then they have overextended and it is decidedly their fault they lost, next time angle your play around Dark Pulse. And no, I don't believe this is blind guesswork as if you're actually engaging with the mechanic you'd quickly realize there's about a million reasons to believe Amoonguss may have a Fire/Ice resist Tera, and no compelling reason for Amoonguss to pick one resistant to Dark.
Offensive mons like Roaring Moon are similarly predictable. Despite what the ladder may have you believe at times, most people playing this game do have a brain and aren't pulling a name from a hat somewhere and using that to decide their Tera type. Little Timmy might pick whatever sounds cool, but most players on ladder are to some extent actually trying to win. If I see a Roaring Moon team with no great Breloom check, I can be reasonably certain that Roaring Moon is in fact, the Breloom check, for instance. It's just game sense 101. I'm sure that eventually, given enough games every poster in this thread will run into that one guy who just had to be different, but honestly that doesn't sound any worse than having your Buzzwole murked by Z-Peck Mamoswine. And yes, that absolutely was a real set that was ran in Gen 7 UU at one point iirc, so Z-Moves have quite literally already caused the same dilemma that so many posters seem to fear with Tera. I'm not trying to be a dick here, I'm trying to get a pro-ban argument that properly articulates why Z-Peck is okay, but Tera is not. Why was the first Buzzwole user to be shamed so thoroughly expected to adapt, but with Tera it's different? Not one pro-ban argument can (or at the very last, has) adequately explained this very obvious difference in mentality on two fundamentally similar issues.
Last, I highly suspect that these "Offensive mon tera'd defensively so I lose" scenarios are happening to offense players almost exclusively. With the insane level of role compression this gen, I have a hard time believing that balance and stall players encounter this issue nearly as often, if ever really. How do you even pull this off against Quagsire for instance, who looks to be a staple for balance thanks to his ability to provide a solid wincon while also offering utility in hazards if you want, while also beating every other crit-me-not type dude thanks to Unaware. Frankly, it sounds like people haven't fully explored their options yet, which is understandable in 4 day old game, but we shouldn't be making huge tiering policy decisions based on week one perceptions. That includes this post as well, for all I know a week from now some new tech could come out that clearly proves me wrong. You can always axe Tera if it proves broken long term, but it will be much harder to get it back if it's banned prematurely.
I can kinda meet pro-ban people halfway on this one, since I honestly wouldn't have minded if it cost an item or w/e. That being said, Tera does have a cost, it's just very conceptual. The opportunity cost is giving up every other possible Tera form you could have gone for in that battle, while simultaneously giving your opponent perfect information on your exact intentions. Imagine we sat down for a game of poker, except the entire time you have to play with your hand revealed. You don't think that I might be at a strategic advantage in that situation?
Honestly, tera sounds like a straight forward case of risk/reward to me. Whether it's correct or not to put higher emphasis on player expression in the way that Tera does I can't say. What I can say is that when I play in OU currently, I have to seriously consider who, what, and when far more than I ever did with Z-Moves. What and when are of course important with Z-moves too. For instance, holding your Z-Electric (the what) until after the ground type is gone (the when) is a quick easy example, but adding the question of who should be attempting this power play in the first place adds considerable depth to this equation. So much depth in fact that I have a very hard time thinking Little Johnny who just got the game for Christmas has any hope of accomplishing anything against an experienced Gen 9 player. I do strongly suspect that given enough time, the same players would find themselves at the top of the leaderboards and winning tours consistently, however with the added complexity I also suspect it might take a little while longer than usual to see these results.
Avalugg @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Fighting/Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
Skeledirge @ Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Fairy/Fighting/Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Torch Song
- Will-O-Wisp
- Slack Off
- Shadow Ball
There's 7 guys right there that I've either played with or against, all of whom are certifiably insane in one regard or another. I do think Skeledirge and Gargod are more like UU threats, but yeah. Turns out when you give Quagsire the ability to flip its weakness at the drop of a hat he becomes much better at that whole Curse Sweeper thing. Throw in Body Press and you've got yourself the makings of a real balance build with either Sire.
I already kinda alluded to this, but seriously try
if you want to see how a support mon can also do work with Tera. Just watch them bring in Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao, or Volcarona and see what happens. Now all of these might seem unassuming individually, but when you take that Quag set, that Corv set, and that Amoonguss set and put them all on the same squad you effectively double the defensive profile of your team, with three slots to spare for whatever. That is where Balance finds its strength in a Tera meta IMO. HO Tera's to spam huge attacks, Stall uses Tera to ensure that they always have that one asshole you can't beat, and Balance uses Tera to cast as wide a net as possible by combining the elements of both Stall and HO.
Just gonna drop some Roaring Moon calcs here tbh. No Booster Energy, no Tera, just the raw numbers on some things I felt were noteworthy. Keep in mind that this guy has the unholy combination of DD/Scale Shot, Taunt, Roost, and all the other stuff you've probably seen 100 times by now. Oh, and U-Turn, in case set-up turns out to not be the wave after any possible future bans.
252+ Atk Life Orb Roaring Moon Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Scream Tail: 190-226 (43.7 - 52%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 374-442 (86.5 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 328-386 (88.4 - 104%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 218-257 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
now this one looks bad until you realize oops
168+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 186-220 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Corv actually still loses to the wrong Roaring Moon set, regardless of Tera. Similarly, the Acrobatics set is still perfectly functional and more than worth it on builds that feed to either Amoonguss, Great Tusk, or any other auxiliary threat that would lose to the acro set right now. If I missed anything feel free to correct me, but at a glance you really only add Breloom and Pawmot to the list of sure-fire responses and I personally don't find that to be compelling enough a reason to label Tera as the problem with most of RM's interactions. He's just stand alone cracked. Same goes for Iron Bundle, Palafin, maybe Iron Valiant and to be frank, probably Dragapult. Pult should at least be given a chance honestly, but Moon/Fin/Bundle are stand alone dumb, irrespective of Tera. Keep in mind, I didn't put booster energy on this guy, which lets him do downright unreasonable shit like
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Salamence Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
If I understand the mechanics correctly, Unaware doesn't prevent Protosynthesis because it's technically an ability not a boost, yes? If so, this level of power is clearly a bit too good compared to the rest of the competition, at least in my eyes.
Anyways if you're still with me thanks for coming out to this Ted Talk. I really do appreciate what smogon has done to keep this game alive over the years, but I do earnestly hope that even if Tera eventually comes out as pants on head stupid levels of unfair that the community arrives at that conclusion based on actual results and data, not week one theorycrafting. God bless.
When people talk about Shed Tail being broken, one of the biggest problems is shed tail behind screens, and when you talk about screens...Grimmsnarl is pretty dumb, y'all. Prankster Screens + Parting Shot enables a lot of stuff. I've been wrecking some (low ladder) folks with a meme team centered around Grimm + Eject Button Torkoal + Terra Earth Scovillain(!!!) for the last little bit.
So I'm looking at Mabosstiff, and I'm curoius on what it could do. Guard Dog is basically an anti-Intimidate ability that's also mixed with Suction Cups, plus it bears a solid base 120 Atk and a respectable speed of 85. Doesn't really pack any coverage outside of Fire Fang for Bug types but it does have Crunch to cripple the enemy's Defense, and Comeuppance sounds like a nuke like a Dark type Counter
EDIT: I rechecked and it has Play Rough for Fighting Types, which is already better in terms of coverage
