Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Right now I'm not home so I can't really go foward with it, but iron bundle is a bigger problem than flutter mane in my opinion as you had a lot of priority that could deal with flutter but this guy's higher defense makes it harder. Once I'm home I'll explain how I dealt with such opressive mon
 
What moves does iron bundle run besides double STAB? It doesn't have a thread yet. I've always managed to deal with it by T-waving it, but when I look at its move pool, the only moves worth running seem to be taunt, encore and substitute. So I am quite confused about the lack of trouble this mon has caused me.
 

chimp

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I mean the opportunity cost of running a specific tera type is the same as running anything, no? It's not an argument in defense, but the cost is that you can't run a different tera type. For example, if I run normal tera on slowking to make it surprise-wall ghosts, than I'm not running a different type that it could enable it to instead wall grasses. Or am I misunderstanding the concept of opportunity cost?
This is not entirely how it works. Thats like saying “by running physical infernape then I miss out on running special infernape.” Yeah, that’s technically true but otherwise inconsequential. Ideally, when choosing a Tera Type, you are building your entire set around the Pokemon’s Tera and your entire team around that set. I think it’ll help if we start reframing what Tera is, functionally. In many ways a Pokemon is completely changing what it is, entirely. I played a few games with Fire-Tera Amoonguss and what Fire-Tera Amoonguss does is almost completely different from what regular Amoonguss does; from the Pokemon it can check to its role in the battle. Tera is like giving you a seventh Pokemon that you can activate in battle whenever you want; its different from Dynamax in that sense since, where Dynamax was matrix for boosting and sweeping, Tera (can) fundamentally alter the role the Pokemon is trying to accomplish.

In many matches I simply changed my Iron Bundle to electric and now its essentially a different Pokemon. Sure it shares some similarities with regular Iron B, but for the purposes of a singular match its completely different, with different checks and counters; its no longer buffed by Snow and no longer weak to SR, it can no longer be paralyzed. These considerations are important in analyzing Tera because suddenly each Pokemon you see on your opponent’s team preview actually represents 18+ variations.

Tera is different from Dynamax and Z-move in that its not *just* upgrading stats or boosting the power of moves, its changing a fundamental aspect of a Pokemon that goes beyond a simple “I have increased my power by X.” Types and the interactions between them is something so fundamental to the game that its hard to gloss over this fact.

Again, I’m not totally against keeping Tera, though I lean more towards banning it, I can respect that it adds a different layer to the game. While I dont find that layer particularly fun (“Oh he changed his Roaring Moon to Steel-typ on my ice shard….yippee…”) I’m eager to see how it develops in a metagame without so many Pokemon that are busted before even considering the mechanic, and I do wonder to what extent the “not-brokenness” of Tera feels to some has to do with the fact that there are just a crap ton of obviously busted shit in the metagame right now. Regardless, I think its important we are all on the same ground when discussing this

Apologies if this topic has moved on, I’m at work and cant read every post
HUGE MECHANICS UPDATE

When Protosynthesis / Quark Drive boost Speed, its by 50%, but for ANY other stat, its 30%!!!
This is big but not massive imo. The 50% speed boost was the craziest aspect to the item imo and that is unchanged. 30% is still a lot and its nice icing on the cake, though I wonder how many mons would just rather go LO instead.
 

talah

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been hovering around top 5 on ladder since Saturday using Bundle HO, haven't rly gone for more

Bundle's best sets are non-booster energy, this change doesn't affect it much. the Modest Agility set becomes slightly weaker but is still about as potent. Boots is far and away my favorite and most consistent performing. 3a (Pump, Beam and Freeze-Dry) + Taunt/Encore, 2a (Pump and Freeze-Dry) + Sub Encore, Sub Taunt even, are all extremely good. Specs works but I would rarely use over boots. it is already nigh impossible to switch into for offense and fat alike at a baseline, with the only reliable switchins being Chansey and Blissey, neither of which is particularly good anymore. the current dex distribution doesn't really allow for reliable defensive counterplay, and due to an incredible speed tier and very solid physical bulk it's very hard to revenge. I think it's a potentially banworty mon, but I would be very curious to see how it would perform with Home distribution.

Palafin is pretty insane. Bulk Up + Taunt with Tera Steel is very hard to counter outside of Helmet Slowbro and Chilling Water Toxapex (I expect to see Tera Electric if those see more use). the more offensive sets I honestly don't think that much of, the BU Taunt set alone makes it arguably banworty in my eyes. it has more reliable counterplay than Bundle does and is easier to revenge at a baseline, but still puts significant stress on building. its biggest problem is a slight, but not too overt, reliance on Tera. I think it's potentially not op without taking into consideration its interactions with Tera, so I'm not too decided yet, but I am leaning towards a ban.

besides those and Shed Tail, nothing else has seemed overbearing. Roaring Moon is good still, BE change notwithstanding, but i'm not at all convinced its too much. it has a bigger Tera reliance than Palafin does, which doesn't help. I will say that Gholdengo is surprisingly good; Trick, Recover, Make it Rain and an amazing ability alongside strong Special Attack and decent bulk make it very formidable.
 

1LDK

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HUGE MECHANICS UPDATE

When Protosynthesis / Quark Drive boost Speed, its by 50%, but for ANY other stat, its 30%!!!
So this means that people are gonna start prefering +Speed natures to speed creep anything, i think this can potentialy do some things like now everyone has to have Choice Scarf or insane amount of defenses to take hits since your always second, in Proto mons, Torkoal is already good, Quark mons have to decide beetween Booster Energy or Run Pircunchin and take advantage of other items, imagine quark drive Choice Scarf Iron Valiant, thats like speed of light to see memes

And here is the thing, even if you lads ban Booster energy, just run Pincurchin, i mean yeah he is trash but the sheer power of the mons that he powers, and another thing is that with Booster Energy you only have one chance, with Electric Terrain, youll get infinite chances, and eventually the tapus are gonna come back

This also could mean that Priority moves and trick room get spammed more than ever to counter the speed wars, but then you just start going with Indeedee Female for the bulky physquic terrain and taunt to shut them down, and with Booter Energy, you can still have a chance to sweep

and all of this is just talking about 50% speed, 30% attack bonus is not bad either, I mean, some of the faster mons in the game are already on the radar, so might aswell run attack bonus to break the support teammates, and shit on the Cyclizar subs

Oh boy
 
Booster energy mech update is irrelevant for Iron Bundle imo. 98% of the time it’s boosting speed with it. And the more oppressive sets are the specs or boots one anyway imo.

It has no real switch ins and the passive mons that could possibly are shit rn anyway.

It’s bulky enough, it’s never dropping to one sucker punch or bp or jet punch, etc.

I don’t think it’s so bad though. Like just one of the best mons rn.
 
Lurker and first time poster coming through

So, the discussion around Iron Bundle seems to agree that it's heavily walled by Blissey (and Chansey I guess?) but this poke seems to heavily prey upon Clod/Dondo, the two Unaware walls OU is using to put a stop on setup mons like bulk up Palafin.

I got the impression that it'll rise (even more) in usage once people stop using it as a tera-mon and start abusing sub/encore/taunt (which seems to be the better option when dealing with the blobs), leaving little to no options when dealing with Bundle save for priority. I think it should be suspect tested in the future (seriously why did gamefreak think giving the new mons such an obscene stat spread would be a good idea). Bundle seems to be, however, one-dimensional (except tera, but that's another discussion) but still able to claim ko's when it comes out, leaving a sour taste in my mouth when I see it can just press a button and nuke something without much prediction or strategy.

In another note, I can't seem to form an opinion on
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.

Great mixed potential, reasonable typing. However seems to suffer from 4MSS and lacks any good physiical fairy stab, but seems to be good with fully physical sets, some special sets and even mixed ones. What are your opinions on Valiant/Galladevoir?
 
How are people handling roaring moon right now? it feels like nothing can actually check both it and the 3 main terras it can run, I'd be interested in hearing what other people use to check it?
 
Iron Bundle needs to go. I honestly think it should have been quickbanned before Flutter Mane. Water + Freeze Dry is the best two-move coverage option in the game, and it gets STAB on both. It's speed tier (136 compared to Flutter Mane's 135) also means unless you are running Dragapult, you are not outspeeding it without a scarfer or priority. On top of that, it has 114 base def, meaning you need very specific priority users, or multiple users of priority to bring it down. Flutter Mane had to commit with Tera to live priority, Iron Bundle doesn't care. Flutter Mane had to commit with Tera or other coverage to bypass it's checks (Psyshock for Clodsire, Mystical Fire for Scizor, etc...), Iron Bundle literally has no reliable checks outside of Blissey/Chansey or some fringe AV answers. I haven't even seen people use anything but Tera Ice on Iron Bundle, because it doesn't need anything creative to 6-0 teams.

CB or LO Breloom Mach Punch can OHKO, but it forces Breloom on that specific set, and forces you to press Mach Punch or else Iron Bundle OHKO's Breloom.

CB Technician Scizor Bullet Punch is a 2HKO, and Specs Iron Bundle can OHKO back, guaranteed if rocks are up.

CB Tera Water Palafin Jet Punch is an unfavorable roll to 2HKO, and Iron Bundle OHKO's back, pretty sure most Palafins are running Leftovers right now anyways.

CB Chien Pao Sucker Punch is a 2HKO, can OHKO with chip, but gets OHKO'd back by Iron Bundle.

CB Lokix cannot OHKO with First Impression or Sucker Punch and is OHKO'd back

CB Kingambit cannot OHKO with Sucker Punch until three teammates are dead (roll) or four to guarantee it. Iron Bundle OHKO's back with rocks.

Here are your only options into Iron Bundle:
1. Run CB Technician Breloom (Which can't switch in unless you make a crazy good predict. In my experience, Iron Bundle is pressing Freeze Dry 80% of the time though) to revenge with Mach Punch. Better hope they don't switch out into a Ghost so you immediately lose momentum. You can also try Vacuum Wave Lucario, since you can OHKO without having to run a choice item or even LO. There is also, CB Kingambit, but locking into Sucker Punch is even worse.
2. Run other mons with priority, but accept that it will cost two mons to revenge Iron Bundle. The mon he killed and the first priority user sent out to revenge.
3. Revenge with a slower, bulkier mon who can tank a hit. Unless that mon is AV Iron Hands, expect to be below 50% health after.
4. Revenge with a scarfer (This is your best option imo if you don't want to immediately lose to Bundle on preview)
5. Run fringe defensive options like AV Sylveon, AV Iron Hands, or Florges.
6. Run Blissey or Chansey, who are pretty trash at the moment.

Iron Bundle hits everything in the tier at the moment. Not only that, but it is one of the fastest in the tier. Most of the time Iron Bundle comes out in a favorable matchup (which is a lot considering those to previous sentences), it's a 50/50 on whether it nets a kill. The rest of the time, it isn't even a 50/50 because Freeze-Dry is just so hard to defensively prep for. In fact, prepping defensively for Bundle forces you to use unviable mons, who will just limit the capabilities of your team into every other matchup.

Iron Bundle also OHKO's a large majority of hazard setters, making it difficult to get them up in a game into him. If a player pivots in to Bundle in a matchup where he can outspeed and OHKO, it will be incredibly difficult to get any chip at all on him. This wouldn't be such a problem if Bundle didn't OHKO so many mons, making it easy to get in a situation like this.

Because of all these reasons, Iron Bundle forces you to commit too many resources just to have a fighting chance. I normally enjoy broken mons, but Bundle is so broken that I can't be creative at all in the teambuilder, it's so so limited.

This is the set I've been using, but Bundle has other options with Boots + Taunt or even 2 Attacks + Taunt + Encore:

Iron Bundle @ Choice Specs
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ice/Fairy
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Flip Turn

Tera Ice let's you use 100% accurate Freeze Dry instead of Hydro Pump, when you need to ensure you'll hit. Tera Fairy is for Mach Punch, Sucker Punch and First Impression resists.
 
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That is one of the things that might need to get explored in depth next once Iron Bundle (and possibly Palafin) are out of the equation
 
Electrode is…Electrode. I doubt that it can OHKO or do much meaningful damage even with SE.
Iron Bundle has 60/56 special bulk or something like that, Electrode surely OHKOs even without boosting item. However, it's useless vs the rest of the meta except some weird Screens set, which mostly would be outclassed by Grimmsnarl.
 
I think the fact that bundle is literally only walled by bliss should be enough that it should at least be suspected sooner than later
And if we get to a point where (as currently seems possible), the bent of the game is so obviously offensive that the concept of 'walling' offensive threats becomes untenable?

The early meta is revealing a huge variety of ridiculous offensive threats that are only being kept in check by faster ridiculous offensive threats. The game has obviously been designed to make defensive play unrewarding, if not impossible - nowhere more evident than in the fact that playing it as intended literally forces you into short, timed games. Across the board, defensive options have been nerfed. In their place we have a swarm of power creeping Pokemon with new moves that far outdo even the Hyper Beam family, without the same drawbacks.

This is where Gamefreak seems to want to head. If we don't get there this generation, we will almost certainly get there in the next. What do we do when defences simply no longer keep up with offences, when 120 BP is just 'acceptable', even RU Pokemon are without safe switch ins, and you simply have no choice but to sac a Mon in order to take down an offensive threat?

If the game is being designed to move away from the kind of game we are trying to play with it, then eventually we won't be able to play that kind of game with it.
 

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Iron Bundle has 60/56 special bulk or something like that, Electrode surely OHKOs even without boosting item. However, it's useless vs the rest of the meta except some weird Screens set, which mostly would be outclassed by Grimmsnarl.
That’s fair. However, it should die to literally anything that Iron Bundle throws out, and any switch-in can stuff it’s revenge killing attempts.
 
On another note hazards are even harder to remove because of Ghouldengo, who denies Rapin Spin with it's Ghost typing and Defog with it's Ability Good as Gold
 
besides those and Shed Tail, nothing else has seemed overbearing.
I keep seeing everyone shouting for a Shed Tail ban. While there is no doubt in my mind that Shed Tail and Shed Tail alone is what makes Cyclizar broken, if we are to go by the same line of reasoning used in the Houndstone ban (instead of Last Respects), wouldn't we have to discuss Orthworm a little more?

Honestly, I've used Orthworm very little, but Shed Tail is way less of a problem on him. The fact that you can realistically only use it once per game makes it a lot easier to handle. In fact, I've seen Orthworn sets without Shed Tail enough to think that it probably isn't a problem on him.
 
I haven't played, so can't tell you for sure. Pdef with Bold and Max Defense checks the most threats. However, Calm with Sdef checks things like Hatterrene and Iron Moth better. There is also the potential of making it a bulky offensive Mon, with Modest and Max HP and Special Attack. In Trick Room it would be Quiet.
I'm thinking I might soft reset for a Modest nature since it might be a better use as an offensive Mon during the story and main playthrough but if it runs into trouble during competitive then I can always change it's nature with a mint and try one of the other natures.
 
I think we should start to think about potential new team cores that will reliably stick in OU and not care about the speed creeps since they'll obviously end up getting banned one way or another
 

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I think we should start to think about potential new team cores that will reliably stick in OU and not care about the speed creeps since they'll obviously end up getting banned one way or another
There are only a very small handful more of things that are exceedingly likely to get banned at this point, so be careful when making sweeping statements like this!
 
I keep seeing everyone shouting for a Shed Tail ban. While there is no doubt in my mind that Shed Tail and Shed Tail alone is what makes Cyclizar broken, if we are to go by the same line of reasoning used in the Houndstone ban (instead of Last Respects), wouldn't we have to discuss Orthworm a little more?

Honestly, I've used Orthworm very little, but Shed Tail is way less of a problem on him. The fact that you can realistically only use it once per game makes it a lot easier to handle. In fact, I've seen Orthworn sets without Shed Tail enough to think that it probably isn't a problem on him.
My experience with both Cyclizar and Orthworm is that Orthworm is actually easier to Shed Tail with for profit than Cyclizar.

Cyclizar either needs team support to try its best to make its Subs survive (e.g. screens, teammates with immunities and/or 4x resists) or for the opponent to actually be passive or at least scared of it (e.g. opponent being scared of the 20 SpA EVs Scarf Draco Meteor set outspeeding and OHKOing all Dragapults but Tera or Scarf ones). Too often, my opponents break the Cyclizar sub the turn I Shed Tail and effectively injure Cyclizar instead of my recipient, all with no consolation prize of at least smacking my opponent with U-turn.

Orthworm actually walls some stuff and has good physical bulk, so you can Shed Tail on both passive stuff (just like Cyclizar) and stuff Orthworm forces out (e.g. most Baxcalibur). Sadly, you need Sitrus Berry if you want to Shed Tail successfully as often as possible.
 
I honestly think that Espeon can shut down Glimmora leads who think they can get off T. Spikes from it's ability or SR. But if paired with fellow eeveelution Sylveon, the two could make a solid duo, since Sylveon could switch in on many Dark type not named Chien-Pao or Chi-Yu, or strong special if they threaten Espeon due to being immune to it's STAB, while Espeon can come in (with HDB) and deny any further attempts of stacking more hazards or statuses. Ghouldengo does seem to single handedly counter this duo though
 
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