Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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1LDK

It's never going to get better
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Fun Fact: With terra blast being a thing, you can have Terra fire coverage, I know magnezone is not the most appelaing user of tera since you would normally rather use it to save or boost your wallbreakers, but I think its neat nontheless, i think this could defeat Non Focus Blast Golhdengo
 
Fun Fact: With terra blast being a thing, you can have Terra fire coverage, I know magnezone is not the most appelaing user of tera since you would normally rather use it to save or boost your wallbreakers, but I think its neat nontheless, i think this could defeat Non Focus Blast Golhdengo
Seems like a cool option for scizor and stuff, but Gholdengo is immune to trapping, unless it has Terastallized into Steel, which I don't think it does.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
Has anyone tried out Eject Pack Gholdengo? Good as Gold makes the chances of its stats being reduced by an opponent drastic go down, so it can use Make It Rain as a pivot move. Seems like it might have some use.
 
So I was initially pro-Tera, but the more I climb the more it feels like a problem, and I want to do a mini breakdown on which part exactly I'm having problem with.

Out of the all things Tera provided, the Adaptabilty boost is really strong and pushes into a meta that favors offense. It can sometimes feel unfair, but doesn't feel too unhealthy because it is something you can often EV for if you choose to do so.

The access to coverage of any type from Tera Blast can also feel unfair sometimes, but if I do get hit by a surprise coverage move I often don't mind just sucking it up and pretend I got hit by Hidden Power. Personally it doesn't feel too unhealthy, because putting Tera Blast on a mon has the opportunity cost of a move slot, and putting enough pressure on the opponent to Tera another of their mon is a very reasonable punish. Getting hit by a surprise coverage might be unpleasant, but there is still some level of skill expression in terms of maintaining offensive momentum.

EXCEPT...

What is not fine to me is actually just the change in typing itself, as it turns offense vs offense entirely matchup dependent, and one of the biggest offender of this is Roaring Moon. Roaring Moon currently has 2 main Tera types, in Flying and Steel, which expectedly have different defensive checks, which imo feels fine for defensive teams because when I play a bulky team, I don't mind preparing something for Flying Ground coverage, and something to for Dark Steel coverage. But on offense, you tend to prepare less for specific types and more for specific Pokemon.

In the same example of Roaring Moon, Ice is good for Tera Flying, and Fighting priority is good for Tera Steel, and if you happen to run into the one you are not prepared for, you kinda just lose. Even if you prepared for Roaring Moon with both Iron Bundle and Breloom, you can still miss the 50/50 and lose one of your "checks" for nothing. In previous gens, if you can't deal with something defensively, you always had the option to sack something and send in a "revenge killer". Except Tera being a thing means you have to send in the correct revenge killer. The Roaring Moon user in this example is always at the advantage, where the opponent is staring down at a 50/50 at best.

I think the hallmark of a unhealthy mechanic is the lack of a reliable counterplay. A past generation example of what I would consider a "reliable counterplay" would be "Toxapex running Shed Shell to escape Whirlpool Fini". This might feel like an exaggeration, but the 50/50s that Terastalisation forces feels like "Toxapex running Shed Shell to escape Whirlpool Fini, except Shed Shell only success half the time", which is simply unhealthy even if it were not broken.
Isnt that the problem Genesect had in OU? too many sets/coverage to prepare for? Wouldnt that warrant more of a ban on the pokemon than the mechanic right away? Not every pokemon is gonna have crazy coverage and multi sets potential(with sweeping potential) like roaring moon? or will they? i still think we should ban mons and let a ladder form before banning terretalize.
 
Isnt that the problem Genesect had in OU? too many sets/coverage to prepare for? Wouldnt that warrant more of a ban on the pokemon than the mechanic right away? Not every pokemon is gonna have crazy coverage and multi sets potential(with sweeping potential) like roaring moon? or will they? i still think we should ban mons and let a ladder form before banning terretalize.
You can only ban so many mons. At some point it becomes clear that the common theme between these mons being OP was tera. Not every mon is stupid OP like Flutter Mane which would be instabanned regardless of gimmicks. Roaring Moon in particular would be nowhere as threatning without being able to switch to Tera Flying or Steel.

I am not advocating for a ban, but tera should remain in the radar since it has multiple issues which could be problematic down the line, if it isn't already
 
I would like to promote the Slowking+Chien-Pao core.
They share a bug weakness but otherwise cover each other's well: Slowking resists fire, steel and fighting and Pao resists Freeze-Dry, dark and ghost -- and yes the fact I'm specifically mentioning Freeze-Dry should hint you at a certain totally not centralizing robotic bird.

Slowking can still do its Gen 8 shenanigans except it also sets snow that counters all the other weathers and gives Pao a defensive boost which grants it actually solid bulk.
If Pao has Ice Spinner you auto-win against the very few dedicated Electric Terrain teams, and it's the main reason Pinchurchin is a wasted team slot most of the time.
Pao is one of the few abusers of all three types of Terastallization: superSTAB, defensive to circumvent revenge killing and Tera Blast (usually Electric for that sweet physical BoltBeam STAB, but Fire and Ground also have their use) to lure and dispose of counters.

This is why teams running Chien-Pao benefit from using mind games to keep the opponent guessing on whether Pao is Terastallizing or not, and what kind it would be.
If you run Pao in a team with an obvious dedicated Tera abuser like Skeledirge and Iron Thorns it is automatically much less threatening.
 
Tera is really broken. All the alternate ways of "balancing" it (only can tera to one of your types, all tera types announced a team preview) seem to just kick the can around. We have multiple tiers for "fun" like AG, Ubers, and NatDex. In certain respects, I find it worse to play against than most of the non-Airstream dynamax users. I think if there's a real effort to nerf the mechanic but keep it in the tier, Tera Blast should be the first thing on the chopping block.
 
Tera is really broken. All the alternate ways of "balancing" it (only can tera to one of your types, all tera types announced a team preview) seem to just kick the can around. We have multiple tiers for "fun" like AG, Ubers, and NatDex. In certain respects, I find it worse to play against than most of the non-Airstream dynamax users. I think if there's a real effort to nerf the mechanic but keep it in the tier, Tera Blast should be the first thing on the chopping block.
what sets are people seeing tera blast used on so often?

Ive played like 80 games and almost never seen it. I feel like a tera blast ban wouldn’t be particularly noticeable at all, I definitely do not agree with a tera blast ban being the correct course of action.
 
Why is lot of people playing dragonite instead of roaring moon?
The multiscale set is probably better but Tera normal cb extreme speed is the strongest non conditional priority move in ou afaik. (Sucker punch can be played around and the dolphins jet punch needs to switch out)
 
I’m going to go into detail on trying to look at this anti-Tera post, as it’s one of the first that isn’t just saying Tera is unpredictable so it should be banned. Starting out with I have no hate for anti-Tera people, and value both opinions. However, I have seen more compelling arguments from the pro-Tera side, so let’s look at this argument, shall we?
So I was initially pro-Tera, but the more I climb the more it feels like a problem, and I want to do a mini breakdown on which part exactly I'm having problem with.
Out of the all things Tera provided, the Adaptabilty boost is really strong and pushes into a meta that favors offense. It can sometimes feel unfair, but doesn't feel too unhealthy because it is something you can often EV for if you choose to do so.
I mostly agree with this point. I do think that it isn’t too unhealthy because you can EV for it. However, I would like to say that same type Tera is probably the exact wrong way to be using this. Outside of maybe Palafin and Dragapult, I don’t see this being too useful, since the power boost is not too noticeable at this point in the meta.

The access to coverage of any type from Tera Blast can also feel unfair sometimes, but if I do get hit by a surprise coverage move I often don't mind just sucking it up and pretend I got hit by Hidden Power. Personally it doesn't feel too unhealthy, because putting Tera Blast on a mon has the opportunity cost of a move slot, and putting enough pressure on the opponent to Tera another of their mon is a very reasonable punish. Getting hit by a surprise coverage might be unpleasant, but there is still some level of skill expression in terms of maintaining offensive momentum.
Once again, I agree with this point. Tera Blast is a very high risk high reward version of hidden power that almost requires you to Tera any Pokémon that has this move. One possible exception would be Magnezone, which can run Tera Fire Tera Blast, but doesn’t have to Tera if there’s nothing it needs to trap. Pult and Tera Blast Palafin variants NEED to Tera to use this move, as otherwise they are playing with 3 moves. Very high risk, but high reward and can be used in interesting ways. I personally no longer think that Tera Blast is broken as I did earlier, because of it’s high risk nature.

EXCEPT...

What is not fine to me is actually just the change in typing itself, as it turns offense vs offense entirely matchup dependent, and one of the biggest offender of this is Roaring Moon. Roaring Moon currently has 2 main Tera types, in Flying and Steel, which expectedly have different defensive checks, which imo feels fine for defensive teams because when I play a bulky team, I don't mind preparing something for Flying Ground coverage, and something to for Dark Steel coverage. But on offense, you tend to prepare less for specific types and more for specific Pokemon.
Roaring Moon is more of the problem here than Tera, as I firmly believe that Moon is broken and Tera looking broken is a symptom of that. It doesn’t need Dragon coverage, as Throat Chop/Jaw Lock hits hard enough for neutral, and it doesn’t want to lock itself into Outrage. Acro disintegrates Breloom anyway, and Booster Energy speed Roaring Moon at +1 can outspeed even Booster Energy Iron Bundle and hit it for solid damage with it’s Dark type STAB. Tera Steel has its own set of problems, notably making you somehow weaker to Palafin and other revenge killers while not fixing your Fighting weakness. Tera Flying is an all or nothing gambit that can flip Roaring Moon’s checks on their heads, but doesn’t change some matchups, like against Ice types. Thus the risk factor for picking your Tera types still is there, and Tera isn’t a de facto “Delete all of my checks” button. You have to think about how it works with your team, as to maximize your advantage. Short version that also answers the above question: How is Tera matchup fishing different from regular matchup fishing? Wouldn’t you rather Tera into a more universally useful type? Well, that depends on your team composition what the most useful Tera type is, and a good player can look at the team and be like “Hm! This pokemon is likely this Tera type because of this threat into their team!” As the meta develops, Tera types for pokemon should shift to 1 to 3 types, easing the prediction and allowing for more creative strategies.

In the same example of Roaring Moon, Ice is good for Tera Flying, and Fighting priority is good for Tera Steel, and if you happen to run into the one you are not prepared for, you kinda just lose. Even if you prepared for Roaring Moon with both Iron Bundle and Breloom, you can still miss the 50/50 and lose one of your "checks" for nothing. In previous gens, if you can't deal with something defensively, you always had the option to sack something and send in a "revenge killer". Except Tera being a thing means you have to send in the correct revenge killer. The Roaring Moon user in this example is always at the advantage, where the opponent is staring down at a 50/50 at best.
Reminder here that Tera can only be used once per battle. One it’s used, the jig is up. If, say, Roaring Moon is facing off against an Iron Bundle and Palafin team. I know, I know, not the most optimal. But, say the Roaring Moon has the Steel tera type. You would want to try to set up against the Iron Bundle by taking it by surprise, but then the damage you take puts you into Palafin Mach Punch range. You can try to set up on Palafin here, but you would take a lot of damage, possibly too much if Palafin pulls out a fighting move. So you would want to set up on something else, no? Well, the opponent manages to kill your Roaring Moon by using their Tera Electric on their Iron Bundle to take a Tera Flying Acrobatics and kill back with Tera Blast, or chip it enough with Freeze-Dry to put it into Palafin range. 1 for 1 trade, both players used their Tera, neither swept. Either that or Iron Bundle lives and now you have to revenge kill it. That’s how every HO meta for the past few generations has worked. Tera is a symptom, not a cause.

I think the hallmark of a unhealthy mechanic is the lack of a reliable counterplay. A past generation example of what I would consider a "reliable counterplay" would be "Toxapex running Shed Shell to escape Whirlpool Fini". This might feel like an exaggeration, but the 50/50s that Terastalisation forces feels like "Toxapex running Shed Shell to escape Whirlpool Fini, except Shed Shell only success half the time", which is simply unhealthy even if it were not broken.
This isn’t the greatest comparison in my opinion, since this is more like if Pex and Fini were on every team and had this interaction every game. However, your opponent could assume you were Shed Shell every game and play accordingly. Even with that, Tera trends are comparable to Z move trends, but with less immediate power in the mix. Defensive Tera usage actually leads to a more healthy metagame, since Tera will always be easier to counterplay once it’s revealed. So this is less of a “Shed Shell Pex but it only works 50% of the time” situation but is more of a “Shed Shell vs Gunk Shot Pex(which yes is a set I actually used to deal with Whirlpool Fini, it did work) to deal with Fini” situation. Both have different opportunity cost, and both solve the issue, just one is a more defensive method and one is a more aggressive method.

All in all, I appreciate the post as it’s by far one of the best anti-Tera posts out there so far, but these are my personal thoughts on it. Kudos to you, escarlata, and happy laddering!

edit bcus I forgor to say this: I don’t think now is the best time to take action on Tera, as the meta has barely taken shape yet. Let’s hope to see some of the OP new mons go before even thinking of giving Tera the boot. Even with that in mind, I feel as if Tera will feel more manageable as the gen goes on, and it will be a central part of the balance.
 
Tera is really broken. All the alternate ways of "balancing" it (only can tera to one of your types, all tera types announced a team preview) seem to just kick the can around. We have multiple tiers for "fun" like AG, Ubers, and NatDex. In certain respects, I find it worse to play against than most of the non-Airstream dynamax users. I think if there's a real effort to nerf the mechanic but keep it in the tier, Tera Blast should be the first thing on the chopping block.
I prefer tera over z-crystals. Z-crystals was the worst format imo
 
what sets are people seeing tera blast used on so often?

Ive played like 80 games and almost never seen it. I feel like a tera blast ban wouldn’t be particularly noticeable at all, I definitely do not agree with a tera blast ban being the correct course of action.
I spam the hell out of Tera Ghost DD Pult
 
what sets are people seeing tera blast used on so often?

Ive played like 80 games and almost never seen it. I feel like a tera blast ban wouldn’t be particularly noticeable at all, I definitely do not agree with a tera blast ban being the correct course of action.
I've seen Tera blast electric to take out bulky water types and corv, I've seen Tera blast steel to take out bulky fairy like hatterene. Tera ground to surprise gholdengo.
 

Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Pre-Contributor
does anyone know if you can tera corv into a non steel and switch out aginst a faster magnezone? or do you have to waste a turn to tera first before they would let you just switch out(hard switch not u turn)
Terastalyzation only happens after you lock in a move, so you cannot switch on the same turn that you terastalyze if that's what you meant
 

njnp

We don't play this game to lose.
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Hello Everyone!

I wanna start off by saying I love this metagame. Sure, it has been frustrating with all the new pokemon (unaware demons, not being able to defog due to a cheese stick, thinking you've swept but then unexpected tera stops you in your tracks) but overall it has been very refreshing coming off of a complacent generation 8. The council has done a good job monitoring this generation and giving helpful information to the community which is fantastic.

I've played close to 300 games of Generation 9 OU thus far as it truly has been extremely fun to use different playstyles and test different mons. I've used every playstyle except stall basically (which ironically is #1 on the ladder rn as I type this post shoutout to legend pokemonisfun). I just wanna give my opinion on the pokemon I think are the best, most broken, the most annoying...whatever you wanna call them.

1. Palafin-Hero1669147151128.png

Palafin is a result of all those paper straws we've been using to save the planet. I recorded a video with Finchinator and during the discussion on this pokemon, I stated this mon is very scary and that's exactly what it has been. It started showing its potetial with banded, you would see it as a nice revenger on bulky offense or nice late-game cleaner on hyper offense. Very quickly the metagame developed into it centralizing around Bulk Up - Jet Punch - Drain Punch - Taunt. This moveset gave it the ability to sweep most of the metagame either late game or right off the bat under screens. This caused an immediate rise in Amoongus usage. Even with the rise in Amoongus, or the rise in bulky water mons running chilling water this pokemon is too centralizing and currently too strong for the metagame IMO. Pokeaim also caused this rise in specs (that's where I heard it first) palafin which actually has the spa to pull off and is able to have the mon burst through normal checks/measures such as Amoongus, Garchomp, and Toxapex while also having momentum. This pokemon is also able to generate momentum along with impressive bulk. It's currently unhealthy for the metagame.

2. Iron Bundle
1669149144463.png


Iron Bundles bag is crazy. It has the capabilities same as Palafin to clean up every single playstyle. Hyper Offense is pressured heavily by booster energy timid speed or agility booster energy modest. It can shred bulky offense with the ability to 2hko all viable measures with its stabs. It can shred balance/stall with taunt, sub encore, or use u-turn/flip turn with hazard stack to pressure. It also doesn't need booster energy to be effective. It can longevity in a game with heavy duty boots and avoid taking any hazard damage while pressuring the entire metagame.

3. Gholdengo
1669149513308.png


This cheese stick is ridiculous. It has the capability to prevent all forms of hazard removal with its typing and ability. You can run balloon to wall the stabs of great tusk while preventing it to spin. Its ability prevents Corvinknight from getting off Defog while avoid being status in any way. It also has the ability to break through teams with nasty plot recover while having good enough bulk and speed for the metagame currently. It also is arguably a top 3 choice scarfer in this metagame due to it again being able to prevent hazards from being removed while also having a ridiculous 120 base power stab that never misses and has little switch-ins. You may not believe the cheese stick is broken. I personally feel its an uncompetitive due to its ability and its extremely hard to get hazards off vs a well played Gholdengo and I hope the council takes a hard look at it as currently with already constricting viable hazard removal options this pokemon has just enlarged the problem.

4/5. Chein Pao
1669150460711.png
& Cyclizar
1669150550971.png


Both of these are a problem in their own way. They both are rather frustrating to prep for and put in amazing work during gameplay. I will say personally I find Chein Pao to be more of an overwhelming pokemon as it has the tools to clean up alot of teams. My friend MANNAT stated that its a mon that would really appreciate 5 moves (like alot of pokemon lol) due to some match ups it gets against certain team structures but if it faces the right team for it to abuse with whichever set it has, it will. Cyclizar reminds us once again how ludicrous of an ability Regenerator is and considering so many things got nerfed this generation feels game freak forgot about the ability. Nonetheless, its speed and movepool is rather troublesome, it's a very viable mon and has so many variety of sets it can take advantage of similar to Tornadous T last generation. Shed Tail is the reason that this pokemon is amazing. If you play/make your prediction right you may be able to grant a sweeper/or threatening pokemon to your opponent team a free sub. I'm not sure yet if either of these pokemon or broken. I definitely don't feel they shouldn't be viewed as bannable before the pokemon mentioned above, although I do understand if you do as they're in their own respective right amazing.

I will end this post with what I'm known for, teambuilding. This team has been the most joyful to use and I find myself preferring HO in such a chaotic metagame. I was inspired by this ladder players Grimmsnarl (sorry forgot the name) screens team and I've been changing it up as the metagame has developed/things have been banned. I hope people enjoy using the team.

https://pokepast.es/aaf9958c3c3e0e4d

Great Tusk is really really good. It's pretty scary once you get to bulk up after the speed boost. I'm running max hp max speed so its attack is low enough to gain that speed boost with the booster energy item and it's really hard to slow down. Once Palafin and Bundle go (hypothetically) this pokemon could become too much for the metagame but time will tell. I will say I've swept with great tusk as much as I have palafin it's hard to counteract especially with all priority being physical. The biggest issue is ballon Gholdengo for obvious reasons.
 
Hello! I decided to finally make an account to join in the discussions. I've been a casual player since Gen 6 and am not super competitive or tournament focused. I wanted to talk a little bit about my experience with the new meta.

Terastilizing is of course on the front of everyone's minds. Both TheCouterTeamer and Escarlata have some great posts about the pros and cons of its competitiveness. I really see why this is a big issue, as I have learned a little bit about the mess that was Gen 5 OU.
The biggest thing for me as a casual player on Showdown is that Terastilizing is a lot of fun. It feels like the natural progression after megas, so I am surprised GameFreak took so long to implement it. I am enjoying it so much more than both Z-moves and Dynamax.

For the most part, I have been using a rain team (with some weaker mons for fun like Jolteon and Revavroom) and Barraskewda is so strong with tera water. I've been running CB Liquidation, CC, Ice Fang, Psychic Fangs and it is so good. Putting tera ice on jolt has also been super nice for its move pool.

I hope it doesn't get the boot, but as a non-competitive player, I do not have an authority on it. I would like to see some action taken to try and work around it, such as removing tera blast or revealing tera types at team preview. I'm not super convinced on removing tera blast since hidden power was a factor for a long time, but tera blast is a little stronger and also switches between physical and special, so it makes sense if it gets removed.
I also am personally a bigger fan of offense rather than defense (probably why I prefer VGC or singles play personally), but I get why defense focused players are frustrated.

I also wanted to quickly touch on Revavroom and Garganacl (or however you spell it) as those are the 2 new mons I have the most experience with. Revavroom is a really fun support pokemon. Access to haze, taunt, parting shot, t spikes, and toxic is not anything to scoff at. The main frustration I have with it is that it doesn't get rapid spin. Coalossal did last gen and they are similar design inspirations (train vs car). It even gets a new move spin-out (which I haven't really used so I can't speak on it). So why not rapid spin? Oh well
Garganacl is also underrated. I have been running Iron defense, body press, recover, and salt cure. It is really hard to beat without a good special check and I think Stall and Defense players should focus on it when the offense calms down a bit.

I didn't play BDSP OU, but if I recall, something similar happened there. The metagame started super offensive, and then innovations were found to ease it down. I think with a little time that will occur in the SV OU meta, so I want to wait probably the same amount of time at least that dynamax was taken care of.

Thank you for taking time to read, best of luck laddering to you all!
 
Slowking @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Slack Off
- Chilly Reception
- Future Sight

Tera Water Slowking is an amazing BO mon right now is probably one of the only mons that can make the playstyle viable. Tera Water lets you remove your psychic typing, allowing you to check Gholdengo, Chi Yu, Dragapult and others while pivoting around Iron Bundle (Timid Freeze Dry does 45 or so, so you can chilly water out or go hard into your scarf resist). FS + Chilly Reception gives you the Gen 8 FuturePort combo, allowing to break stall and otherwise probelmatic cores.
 

MANNAT

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@ cyclizar

Tbh I think that shed tail should just be grouped in with the BP ban. We don't allow subpassing or even drypassing so I don't see why something as annoying/cheesy/uncompetitive as shed tail really needs to be kept around. It adds little to the metagame outside of enabling cheesy srats like setup mons and air balloon shedinja. Cyclizar itself isn't even good, I'd even wager to say that it's pretty bad, but the potential for cheese and abuse is just dumb and we have precedent with banning baton pass anyways. Please just get this shit out of here for the sake of the meta.
 
However, I would like to say that same type Tera is probably the exact wrong way to be using this. Outside of maybe Palafin and Dragapult, I don’t see this being too useful, since the power boost is not too noticeable at this point in the meta.
I don't think this is true. The scariest thing about Tera is all the bonus multipliers some pokemon can apply to priority now. This favors same type Tera. Breloom, Scizor, Talonflame, Chien-Pao, and several Aqua Jet pokemon are examples of this. But even if you just wanted to go with some fast, hyper offensive set without priority spam, Dragapult and Palafin are hardly the only pokemon that can do this.

Reminder here that Tera can only be used once per battle. One it’s used, the jig is up.
You can still switch in and out of battle and keep the bonuses. The surprise factor may be gone, but not the functionality. I'm not trying to take you out of context with your point on Roaring Moon, but I just want to point out how that big a deal that is in general.

Z moves were a one turn limit. You used it once and that was it. Dynamax was a 3 turn limit. You activated it once and that was it. And while they limited the ways you could forcibly phase it out, if you did switch out with a Dynamax pokemon, it didn't just come back for the rest of the match in OP giant form. When you terrastallize, you change that way for the rest of the battle. There is no limits on turns or switching out.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
@ cyclizar

Tbh I think that shed tail should just be grouped in with the BP ban. We don't allow subpassing or even drypassing so I don't see why something as annoying/cheesy/uncompetitive as shed tail really needs to be kept around. It adds little to the metagame outside of enabling cheesy srats like setup mons and air balloon shedinja. Cyclizar itself isn't even good, I'd even wager to say that it's pretty bad, but the potential for cheese and abuse is just dumb and we have precedent with banning baton pass anyways. Please just get this shit out of here for the sake of the meta.
Lumping Shed Tail in with the BP Clause (and Revival Blessing with the Endless Battle Clause, but that’s probably a discussion for after it’s coded) would definitely be the way I’d go about things if I were the Council. It saves people from having to add stuff to the banlist of every OM, we completely avoid the “should this be banned in [insert other tier]” debate, and, most importantly, it gets rid of Shed Tail in any future gen where it shows up so we don’t need to have this same argument again every three years until civilization collapses.

The fact that Shed Tail is even still a point of discussion is very dismaying.
 
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@ cyclizar

Tbh I think that shed tail should just be grouped in with the BP ban. We don't allow subpassing or even drypassing so I don't see why something as annoying/cheesy/uncompetitive as shed tail really needs to be kept around. It adds little to the metagame outside of enabling cheesy srats like setup mons and air balloon shedinja. Cyclizar itself isn't even good, I'd even wager to say that it's pretty bad, but the potential for cheese and abuse is just dumb and we have precedent with banning baton pass anyways. Please just get this shit out of here for the sake of the meta.
Agreed, I don't specifically have a problem with it because it's only users are super average but it's as matchup fishy as what baton pass once was in the past, and it may be necessary for the sake of consistency. It was also deemed the most problematic using screens and if it ever got popular it could potentially force out the use of phasing or Dragapult as well

Again, I don't have a problem with it but i see why it's problematic, but I'm also interested in reading what people against banning it would say
 
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