Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]

[Aurist]

hi, long time no post

Not got much to say on the balance or competitiveness of Tera as I haven't made my mind up yet and others have had more insightful stuff to say. Tera has at least been very fun as part of the tier despite its further complicating of an already ridiculously complex game, and it's not seeming so blatantly problematic that we should rush to a decision - I think we can take our time with this one and that would be fine.

Just want to add my feedback that if we do seek out action on Tera that I hope we don't jump to modifying the game in ways that are inaccessible on the game itself. I'm against limiting Tera to particular groupings of types e.g. STAB and I'm similarly against seeing Tera type in team preview. While they would be useful compromises to keep Tera in the tier should we see fit, it sets a difficult precedent to differentiate our game from the in game mechanics like this and it adds another quite lengthy clause to an already complex ban/clause list. If this stuff is what we would need to retain Tera then I'd rather see it banned altogether.

 

[Cdijk16]

Hello OU,

I am here to tell you why Tera should be banned outright. Any restriction does not solve the main problem of how unpredictable tera makes the game, and I would like to make my case with some replays.

Here's one that I had on day 0, where htcl brought some stall and I had some sash HO:

Hide

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1714260194
Ultimately I won because I pulled out a novel tera type that htcl could not have possibly prepared for. It was pure MU. Now, would any of the restrictions have helped htcl not lose to tera flying gholdengo?
-If htcl knew that gholdengo could indeed tera flying, then he could try and force it with clodsire and then seismic toss with blissey, but I could just as easily stay ghost/steel and NP up some more. It's still a guessing game.
-Limiting the number of pokemon that could tera wouldn't help, because tera flying gholdengo was insanely good and it would be one of them on my team. That wouldn't have changed anything.
-Limiting tera type to stabs would have made a big difference. But as we'll see in some other replays, that doesn't necessarily make playing around tera any less difficult.
-Banning tera blast would have made no difference here.

Here's another replay from day 0, I was using the same team against 3B on the fire's pincurchin team:

Hide

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1714288396
Having gholdengo block memento and thus getting a free turn was the sort of stroke of luck you could expect so early in the metagame, but regardless, it was able to ultimately win because I could tera flying vs the iron valiant, tank the knock off, avoid being revenge killed, and continue to kill everything.
-If 3b knew I could tera flying, it certainly helps the guessing game, but it stays as one. He has to use the correct move to kill and predict my tera, and if he guesses wrong he loses. That's assuming gholdengo even dies to anything in that position.
-Again, limiting the number of pokemon that could tera wouldn't help, I'm gonna let gholdengo use tera flying.
-Here is a game where limiting tera type to stabs actually would not have helped 3b very much. If I could tera steel on knock off, I can still win. If I can tera ghost on the CC predicting 3b to predict tera steel, I can also win. The unpredictability remains either way. Revenge killing isn't safe either way.
-Banning tera blast also makes no difference here.

Here's a more recent battle on the ladder, where I'm using a sun team vs Stevy124

Hide

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1721143397-qaktbfne0kvp4t678ftoq4q4871uwkrpw
I used tera fire on my specs chi-yu to avoid dying to iron valiant. The moonblast damage meant it was specs, but in case it wasn't, Tera fire would have allowed my to live an aura sphere. Chi-yu then goes on to 2hko ting-lu while a tera blast cb ghost pult smashes my team.
-If Stevy124 knew I was tera fire, it wouldn't have much of a difference in this scenario. This is one of the times where it's more telegraphed who has what tera (chi-yu probably tera fires on a sun team, pult often tera ghost, especially when banded) The raw power of both of these teras really doesn't care about whether or not you know about it, because what in the world is tanking tera fire specs chi-yu under the sun.
-Limiting the number of pokemon that can tera wouldn't help. I only tera with 3 mons on the updated version of this team 95% of the time.
-Limiting the tera type to stabs also makes no difference here.
-Banning tera blast would certainly make cb pult worse, but I imagine tera ghost specs shadow ball can do similar things on the special side.

Here's an interesting case on the ladder where I'm using a sun team vs vkhss

Hide

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1721365332-uh0j4u83u5udbazasazhpy93mifdhv3pw
I used tera fire on specs chi-yu yet again, but this time to get a surprise kill vs palafin. I think vkhss was aiming to tank the hit and drain punch to heal the damage back because chi-yu from full will live an unboosted jet punch under sun, but the unpredictability of tera struck again as I tera fire to avoid drain punch but end up just killing from 83%.
-If vkhss knew I was tera fire, maybe he could've switched out and sacked something else, but nothing else could kill me from full under sun either. I think he would've played the exact same way.
-Limiting the number of pokemon doesn't help here.
-Limiting tera type to stabs makes no difference here.
-Banning tera blast makes no difference here.

Here's yet another ladder battle where I'm using a sun vs fewavead

Hide

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1722346772-gkngmx68bc763xfyr36aiufqjnxd55ypw
Turn 1 I tera steel my roaring moon and iron head to kill the sylveon. Yeah that's really it.
-If fewavead knew I could tera steel, they could play more defensively and try to scout, but they are also using a pretty fat team vs my specs chi-yu which can always tera fire. Any defensive play and scouting means giving room for chi-yu to come in and blow something up. Meanwhile, I have no real hyper voice switch-in. Even with the information that fewavead could have, they are still forced to make a very important guess right off the bat.
-Limiting number of pokemon doesn't help here.
-Limiting tera type to stabs makes a difference here, but not necessarily a big one. Roaring moon iron head won't kill without tera, but that's only because I'm scarf here. If I'm banded, it will kill, and fewavead and it doesn't change the decisions fewavead has to make.
-Banning tera blast makes no difference here, pult got greedy and put itself in first impression range anyway.

So what sort of trends are we seeing? What conclusions can we draw?
In my opinion, the problem of tera is twofold: 80% of the problem is that it is unpredictable, and another 20% is that it makes certain pokemon incredibly strong and hard to wall with the right combinations. Ok then, are the proposed restrictions effective?

Showing Tera type at Team Preview:
In my opinion, I think that showing tera type does not do enough to mitigate the guesswork involved in playing around tera types. For every replay, I feel that knowing the tera type would not have helped the opponent in making the correct play. Even if they knew my tera type, they would still have to guess when I do it and with whom. As the metagame develops, I think we will see certain pokemon settle into certain tera types, so perhaps the "who will tera" question will be easier to guess with time. However, the timing is the most important and most problematic factor, and knowing the tera type beforehand doesn't change the fact that you have to guess when it comes out, and guessing wrong can lose you the game.

Limiting the number of pokemon that have access to Tera:
I think that this restriction is near meaningless unless it is literally 1 or 2. Anything more really doesn't hamper the flexibility of tera. Very rarely am I using tera on any more than 3 pokemon on a team across many games, and I suspect many people feel the same way, depending on the team.

Limiting tera type to stabs:
This restriction would remove a LOT of the unpredictability of tera and take a lot of guesswork out of the game, but most crucially, it does not remove it entirely. Being able to tera into pure fire with chi-yu still forced my opponent to make the same guesses that I could force by tera steel with roaring moon. This restriction is meaningful but not complete enough. It also doesn't stop unwallable nonsense like ghost dpult or fire chi-yu.

Banning tera blast:
This is just a lesser version of limiting tera type to stabs imo. Very meaningless restriction.

Let's take a second to address all the pro-tera arguments too, while I'm here typing this thesis.

"You can't ban the generation defining mechanic!!"
Yes we can. Dynamax was completely unbalanced, and got accordingly banned. Tera does not get any special treatment. If the qualified playerbase thinks it's broken, then it goes. Simple as that.

"Give it some more time!!"
This is a discussion thread, not a suspect thread. We are doing exactly that.

"But it's fun!"
I think specs kyogre would be a lot of fun in OU. But my idea of fun has no bearing on what the OU community should do to make the OU tier as competitive and diverse a tier as possible. At it's core, tera is uncompetitive because it forces players to consider and prepare for WAY too many options and regularly forces near-50-50s. The free adaptability to strong pokemon is just the icing on the cake.

"Just get used to it!"
This one baffles me the most. We got used to broken pokemon like dracovish too, and we carried seismitoad on most of our teams. It lead to the worst stretch of gen8 ou. The meta CAN adapt to any broken nonsense, but that doesn't mean that's a good thing, nor does it mean we should be satisfied with just adapting to whatever exists naturally.

In conclusion, I think all of the restrictions are inadequate and I support a full ban of terastallization.

I think that this post contains good arguments and replays that I haven't seen addressed by any of the Terastal defenders.

 

[Porygon2Bandit]

I think that this post contains good arguments and replays that I haven't seen addressed by any of the Terastal defenders.

My guy I literally quoted that post.

 

[kosecant]

Smogon is a community centered around the competitive aspect of Pokémon.

View attachment 468996

While it's true that most of the community is playing on PS! / the game in a casual way, we need to ensure that we're staying in the Smogon course of action when debating about Pokémon/mechanics ; which is making viables, playables and competitives metagames for 6v6 (and to an extent other metagames). I do understand that most people are not involved in the most "hardcore" competitive core of Smogon and it's fine, everyone should play the game like they want. However, we should focus on objective facts and not subjective thoughts when making decisions about metagames. As I said in the post you quoted, "tier bieng fun" isn't bad but it shouldn't be the prime focus of our tiering actions. I've been quite baffled by the lack of seriousness of some posts which are focusing on their resentment about the mechanic rather than factual facts.

Basically :

Is Terastallization broken or unhealthy ?
Arguments for yes :
Argument for no :

If Terastallization is broken or unhealthy, how are we managing the issue ?
Argument X :
Argument Y :
Argument Z :

Based around those arguments what do we do ?

We could balance the game perfectly, but if it’s the most mind numbingly boring competitive game in existence, nobody will play it. Being competitive should be the number 1 priority, but tossing the fun aspect to the wayside is dumb as hell.

I’ve seen many pro ban players complain about using fun as an argument, and then immediately go on to say that Tera makes the game less fun for them lmao. Let’s all just chill out and recognize that most people would rather have a fun and competitive meta game ideally

 

[Vastus]

The difference is, not every Pokémon has access to Sucker Punch, or would care to slot in Substitute.

You listed some examples of turns that could determine the game, but the difference between them and Tera types is that every Pokémon has access to Teraforming, and the button being right under your standard moves only encourages people to consider using it if they feel that turn is important for making progress, which is eerily similar to how people would use Dynamax as a panic button, and completely abolish their checks.

Even showing a team's Tera types in the team preview doesn't stop each turn from being "Alright, is he going to change types or can I just OHKO/2HKO here?" This especially gets more concerning later in the game, when an opponent hasn't Terastilized yet, because you have no reason not to use it at least once, and avoiding Super Effective damage or gaining Adaptability can be a game-changer.

The only way to balance this mechanic without banning it, is to limit it to one Pokémon per team, in my opinion, preferably with the team preview mod enabled.

This lets several Pokémon benefit from the positives of Terastalizing in general, such as Garganacl being able to be a much better type than Rock, but it stops each turn from being a match-defining guessing game.

This would make them more similar to Mega Evolutions, instead of the panic-button esque Dynamax.

Z-Moves were balanced by several Pokémon having a wasted Item slot if you used multiple Z-Moves on your team, since you can only use one per battle. But it costs nothing to set a Pokémon's Tera type, then click it whenever it allows you to successfully fork your opponent over.

I just wanted to chip in on this, because I agree that Sucker Punch mindgames are not a good example, but I disagree with the notion that there aren't constant 50/50s (or 33/33/33s or whatever) regardless of sets.

Let's take the follow example: I have a hazard Garchomp in against a Clodsire. Now obviously I 2HKO with EQ, but it's not that straightforward. He also has a Corviknight, so if he switches I gain nothing and the momentum swings against me. I may want to click Stealth Rock instead because I'd like go get hazards up and I have counterplay to Defog with Gholdengo. But if I do so he can stay in and Toxic, which means my Chomp will be worn down and won't check certain threats. Now there's a ton of permutations of this situation depending on teams and wincons, but all it comes down to is planning and thinking in the long term whether I should make a prediction and if the reward of advancing my gameplan is worth it.

Now that is a very common situation, we've all put up hazards on a switch millions of times by now. And the game is filled with this kind of situations and considerations, in fact it is *basically every turn*. Every turn is a 50/50 with varying ranges of risk and reward.

Terastallization is similar, but it is a singular moment with higher impact and reward. Now that is not so strange, especially if you've ever played Offense vs Offense match-ups before. Making doubles or predicting a switch is the core of pokemon, and especially for offense those are often high impact, high risk moments. I don't think Terastallization really changes the framework of how competitive pokemon works all that much. It will naturally tend to a more offensive meta, but I think that's fine, and balance and stall will honestly get a lot better over time as sets are figured out more.

Side note: how the hell do people format on phones

 

[ant4456]

I think that this post contains good arguments and replays that I haven't seen addressed by any of the Terastal defenders.

This was addressed.

 

[Wolf-X]

While it can be somewhat unpredictable, i think Tera types not only is a new great interesting mechanics that gives a breeze of fresh air to the gameplay, but it also gives a lot more depth and answers.

I do not think banning it would be wise, in my opinion we need to more time to explore it and eventually the meta will adapt and get used to it.

After all not all Tera types are good and some pokemon will almost always have the same Teratype just as they always have similar movepool due to viability.

Seems too drastic and rushed to ban one of the main and biggest atractions of the metagame.

 

[Shaymin Sky]

I've been playing PS for 9 years, topped ladder in gen 7 ou, gen 7 DOU, gen 8 ou, and have maintained top 40 in gen 9 so far. I've played many metagames, the good the bad (gen 8 ou), and I can confidently say this mechanic allows for the least matchup based gameplay in the history of modern gens ATLEAST. That alone is something I think is worth fighting to keep in OU. The ability to micromanage for any MU in builder without worrying about teamslots and having to pick and choose what to lose to, is extremely healthy. You cannot realistically lose off mu unless you simply don't have the correct tera's in builder, or your playing a stall/semi stall vs another stall/semi stall and theirs just has more longevity than yours. Compare this to literally any other gen in any other tier from gen 5-8 and the difference is astonishing. Skill is largely the most important factor in determining who wins battles more than ever before compared to literally any other generation including all sub tiers, because you can account for almost if not every matchup in the game. I can confidently say literally no MU is unlosable with the teams I've played with and the teams I've made myself, and that's not by virtue of the metagame its through the versatility of terastalization. If you get rid of this, you are quite literally making the game more variable and more matchup reliant and significantly less skill based, which is counterintuitive to the many ban reasonings against terastalization. The depth due to the nuance of the mechanic also adds to the skill aspect of the metagame, and true 50'50's on tera typing rarely ever happen in practice. There is almost always a middle ground play, or a way to bait out the tera especially with proper positioning prior to the opponent tera-ing in the first place.

There's obviously other counter arguments such as tera isn't unpredictable because almost all mons really only use 1-2 tera types aside from a few like moon. Thing is, those use cases of many tera types are quite frankly not broken (EX: Moon). The mons that people say "tera makes broken" like ape or chi yu, are literally already broken as hell. I mean before ape's even started running the optimal tera water, it was already on the radar. Chi yu is not getting switched into regardless of tera fire or not, please let me know the counters to chi yu especially in sun where it's being really abused right now at high elo.

There's also the other argument for tera to stay such as it doesn't make any Pokémon in specific "broken", there's other arguments for it that also make note that tera doesn't really enable for sweeps instead more so it serves to improve on breaking power or defensive utility, which I think makes tera far more tame than people give it credit for. I literally could go on and on regarding counter play and what makes tera balanced due to how nuanced the mechanic is, but I think the Matchup element of it is the most important by a longshot and a lot of other discussions are pointless because explaining that tera is not this unpredictable omnipotent force is not going to win people over, and most players who are capable of getting reqs for the tera test already are aware tera types are 95% of the time predictable and there are rarely ever true 50/50 tera situation, what you have to talk about the grand scheme of things which I think the first point does very well. Obviously I'm voting no ban on tera FYI.

Also I'm fine with the restriction of tera type on team preview, it appeases the ban players to a degree, while still giving the ability to micro manage MU'S. No ban, or that restriction works for me.

 

[alephgalactus]

We could balance the game perfectly, but if it’s the most mind numbingly boring competitive game in existence, nobody will play it.

This argument doesn’t really hold much water when stall as a playstyle exists.

 

[kosecant]

This argument doesn’t really hold much water when stall as a playstyle exists.

Did you not read my last sentence where I said I’d rather have a competitive and fun tier?

 

[Shaymin Sky]

I've been playing PS for 9 years, topped ladder in gen 7 ou, gen 7 DOU, gen 8 ou, and have maintained top 40 in gen 9 so far. I've played many metagames, the good the bad (gen 8 ou), and I can confidently say this mechanic allows for the least matchup based gameplay in the history of modern gens ATLEAST. That alone is something I think is worth fighting to keep in OU. The ability to micromanage for any MU in builder without worrying about teamslots and having to pick and choose what to lose to, is extremely healthy. You cannot realistically lose off mu unless you simply don't have the correct tera's in builder, or your playing a stall/semi stall vs another stall/semi stall and theirs just has more longevity than yours. Compare this to literally any other gen in any other tier from gen 5-8 and the difference is astonishing. Skill is largely the most important factor in determining who wins battles more than ever before compared to literally any other generation including all sub tiers, because you can account for almost if not every matchup in the game. I can confidently say literally no MU is unlosable with the teams I've played with and the teams I've made myself, and that's not by virtue of the metagame its through the versatility of terastalization. If you get rid of this, you are quite literally making the game more variable and more matchup reliant and significantly less skill based, which is counterintuitive to the many ban reasonings against terastalization. The depth due to the nuance of the mechanic also adds to the skill aspect of the metagame, and true 50'50's on tera typing rarely ever happen in practice. There is almost always a middle ground play, or a way to bait out the tera especially with proper positioning prior to the opponent tera-ing in the first place.

There's obviously other counter arguments such as tera isn't unpredictable because almost all mons really only use 1-2 tera types aside from a few like moon. Thing is, those use cases of many tera types are quite frankly not broken (EX: Moon). The mons that people say "tera makes broken" like ape or chi yu, are literally already broken as hell. I mean before ape's even started running the optimal tera water, it was already on the radar. Chi yu is not getting switched into regardless of tera fire or not, please let me know the counters to chi yu especially in sun where it's being really abused right now at high elo.

There's also the other argument for tera to stay such as it doesn't make any Pokémon in specific "broken", there's other arguments for it that also make note that tera doesn't really enable for sweeps instead more so it serves to improve on breaking power or defensive utility, which I think makes tera far more tame than people give it credit for. I literally could go on and on regarding counter play and what makes tera balanced due to how nuanced the mechanic is, but I think the Matchup element of it is the most important by a longshot and a lot of other discussions are pointless because explaining that tera is not this unpredictable omnipotent force is not going to win people over, and most players who are capable of getting reqs for the tera test already are aware tera types are 95% of the time predictable and there are rarely ever true 50/50 tera situation, what you have to talk about the grand scheme of things which I think the first point does very well. Obviously I'm voting no ban on tera FYI.

Also this is for the people as well as Srn who want to dramatize the power of the mechanic itself and still say "you can turn into any of the 18 types and you wont know" when it is clearly not the case since pokemon use only the most optimal tera's

When you play your matches do you think "wow this pokemon learns 74 moves? how will I know which moves it has", how is this different from the extreme exaggeration your making? Like I genuinely wonder how those people play pokemon with that line of thinking because if you truly believe that people are not going to run optimal tera types and instead run like tera grass kingambit lmfao, are you also afraid of bulldoze landorus-T? For clarification obviously pokemon like kingambit run only 4 moves, same as pokemon running only 1-2 tera types everytime, I don't mean this in an inflamatory way but how is this a hard concept to grasp? You use the best possible items, moves, types, ev's and now tera's on the pokemon your using, or in very rare or niche cases what is best for your team incase of a bad mu, which you can discern those niche/rare variations anyways off team preview based on what the opponents team HARD loses to. I think its very disingenuous to make willfully ignorant arguments over aspects of the game everyone regardless of skill level already knows is not true, just to add to your basis for a ban argument. I don't mean this in hostility either but it derails legitamate conversations when people say "but any 18 types" when this is clearly not the case, even as early as week 4 in mid-high elo's tera types are now predictable. Gholdengo runs flying, kingambit runs ghost and flying, clodsire runs water, dondozo runs grass, iron valiant runs fairy, I don't think I have to repeat the rest of the relevant pokemon in the OU tier but you get the point.

 

[Wolf-X]

I've been playing PS for 9 years, topped ladder in gen 7 ou, gen 7 DOU, gen 8 ou, and have maintained top 40 in gen 9 so far. I've played many metagames, the good the bad (gen 8 ou), and I can confidently say this mechanic allows for the least matchup based gameplay in the history of modern gens ATLEAST. That alone is something I think is worth fighting to keep in OU. The ability to micromanage for any MU in builder without worrying about teamslots and having to pick and choose what to lose to, is extremely healthy. You cannot realistically lose off mu unless you simply don't have the correct tera's in builder, or your playing a stall/semi stall vs another stall/semi stall and theirs just has more longevity than yours. Compare this to literally any other gen in any other tier from gen 5-8 and the difference is astonishing. Skill is largely the most important factor in determining who wins battles more than ever before compared to literally any other generation including all sub tiers, because you can account for almost if not every matchup in the game. I can confidently say literally no MU is unlosable with the teams I've played with and the teams I've made myself, and that's not by virtue of the metagame its through the versatility of terastalization. If you get rid of this, you are quite literally making the game more variable and more matchup reliant and significantly less skill based, which is counterintuitive to the many ban reasonings against terastalization. The depth due to the nuance of the mechanic also adds to the skill aspect of the metagame, and true 50'50's on tera typing rarely ever happen in practice. There is almost always a middle ground play, or a way to bait out the tera especially with proper positioning prior to the opponent tera-ing in the first place.

There's obviously other counter arguments such as tera isn't unpredictable because almost all mons really only use 1-2 tera types aside from a few like moon. Thing is, those use cases of many tera types are quite frankly not broken (EX: Moon). The mons that people say "tera makes broken" like ape or chi yu, are literally already broken as hell. I mean before ape's even started running the optimal tera water, it was already on the radar. Chi yu is not getting switched into regardless of tera fire or not, please let me know the counters to chi yu especially in sun where it's being really abused right now at high elo.

There's also the other argument for tera to stay such as it doesn't make any Pokémon in specific "broken", there's other arguments for it that also make note that tera doesn't really enable for sweeps instead more so it serves to improve on breaking power or defensive utility, which I think makes tera far more tame than people give it credit for. I literally could go on and on regarding counter play and what makes tera balanced due to how nuanced the mechanic is, but I think the Matchup element of it is the most important by a longshot and a lot of other discussions are pointless because explaining that tera is not this unpredictable omnipotent force is not going to win people over, and most players who are capable of getting reqs for the tera test already are aware tera types are 95% of the time predictable and there are rarely ever true 50/50 tera situation, what you have to talk about the grand scheme of things which I think the first point does very well. Obviously I'm voting no ban on tera FYI.

100% agree, Tera greatly helps to allow players to win even when faced with a poor match up, it brings a lot more skill and depth to teambuilding and the battle.

Previous gens better players where a lot more likely to lose if they got a bad match up, now thanks to tera u have a lot more options which allows skill to become a way bigger factor than it ever was.

Listen to this guy, he put words to my thoughts, thank you.

About me: Ive been playing competitive since the end of gen 3, peaked top 5 in gen 5 and everygen consistently manage to reach at least 1600 elo.

 

[RNGnoob]

Doesn't the fact that there are suggestions to resist terastallization mean that it's broken and should be banned?

 

[ant4456]

Doesn't the fact that there are suggestions to resist terastallization mean that it's broken and should be banned?

considering quite the few people above you that argued that it's not broken disregarding restrictions, idk

take the info you see and figure out what you believe

 

[Kestouvafere]

Hi!
First of all I apologise for my english level... I hope I will be understand....
I come from Fildrong's comunity. Concerning the terracristal, i hope it will not banned... I prefer the option of just some pokemon can use the terracristal or you can terracristal with the the same type.
That's all for me see you.

 

[Negative Charge]

There’s definitely an element of small “c” conservative thinking with a portion of the playerbase that is highly resistant to change. Each generation needs to play as closely as possible to the previous one (look at the sheer number of pro-boots banning posts in Gen 8)…This isn’t to say Tera is or isn’t balanced but I don’t think the “we must ban this completely ASAP” people are even trying to engage with the topic in a constructive and thoughtful way.

 

[Wolf-X]

There’s definitely an element of small “c” conservative thinking with a portion of the playerbase that is highly resistant to change. Each generation needs to play as closely as possible to the previous one (look at the sheer number of pro-boots banning posts in Gen 8)…This isn’t to say Tera is or isn’t balanced but I don’t think the “we must ban this completely ASAP” people are even trying to engage with the topic in a constructive and thoughtful way.

I agree, many jumping in the tera ban seem to just want the same gameplay style as prior gens and take the least amount of change possible in this new gen. They are imo as you say, very conservative and as such dislike any big changes.

At the very least Tera should be given a lot more time before considering any kind of ban or restrictions. I still have yet to find a game where i can say i lost because my opponent Terastalized and i felt my loss was unfair.

So far imo its great, and many issues might lay with some of the mons running free in the meta, some of wich have become even stronger thanks to recent bans. Chi-Yu (unwallable right now in sun), Annihilape (crazy strong but maybe not enough to justify ban), Dondozo (physical blissey with unaware/Uber quagsire)...

 

[Dhrabb]

There’s definitely an element of small “c” conservative thinking with a portion of the playerbase that is highly resistant to change. Each generation needs to play as closely as possible to the previous one (look at the sheer number of pro-boots banning posts in Gen 8)…This isn’t to say Tera is or isn’t balanced but I don’t think the “we must ban this completely ASAP” people are even trying to engage with the topic in a constructive and thoughtful way.

I agree with this and would like to elaborate on a weird example.
Let's say for the past 8 generations items didn't exist and in this gen they were added for the first time instead of terastalization. This would add a completely new dimension to the game much like what tera is doing right now. Would people freak out over this massive change and go "Oh no this Garchomp can now outspeed my Dragapult using this scarf shit OR it could passively heal OR it could chip me OR do previously impossible amounts of damage to my defensive wall!" and call for a ban on items? There are hundreds of items one of which any pokemon can hold. Now obviously this isn't the case and there are optimal items that each pokemon can run and we all know that already. I believe this also applies to terastalization. That being said I am an average at best player so do point out if my comparison is outrageous lol.

 

[whab]

I guess it's already been proposed, but one of the solutions I would find interesting is to prevent Pokémon who want to teracrystallize from using other items. We could decide that for a pokémon to teracrystallize, it has to wear the tera-shard of the type in which it wants to teracrystallize. We lose the very versatile side but it would nerf the mechanics without banning it. It would also make it easy to determine if a Pokémon can transform or not. Plus it would be pretty easy to do on a console, and I think it's very easy to understand.

 

[teamot]

Limiting the tera type to stab is the best solution. it keeps the hype on the new mechanics of the 9g. Maybe make the new player want to go for showdown. Limiting on the stabs would greatly limit the flips, we would have a maximum of 50 50 so that makes it a real comeback mechanism.
It is also the simplest limitation and easily verifiable. I'm not against the terablast ban, if it can avoid snowball.

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

Hi, I played this ladder a lot already around 600 times, and have gotten peak number 1 multiple times, most recent being 1950.

I generally think for now, tera is balanced and adds an extra layer of prediction and mindgames which can create a very fun and competitive metagame, and would vote on

No Tiering Action

at least not after one or two major tournaments...

So far, terastalization has been used by pokemon to either get a big offensive boost, defensive boost, utility or even as a bait. Example of each being:

Offensive Boost: Chien-Pao terrastalizing into dark type to get a harder hit on walls like dondozo or alomomola, Roaring Moon Terastalyzing into flying to beat mons like great tusk, Dragonite or Lucario terastalizing into normal for an explosive extreme speed

Defensive Boost: Skeledirge terastastalizing into a fairy type to get better defensive match up againt its weakness like dark and ghost, or Hatterene terastalizing into fire type to nullify its steel weakness and hit them back with stab mystical fire

Utility Boost: Garchomp Terastalizing into a ghost type to prevent rapid spin attempts from the donphans or cyclizar

Bait: Glimmora Terastalizing into Grass to beat Great Tusk lead or Chi-yu Terastalizing into flying and having the move taunt to shut down Ting-Lu

It adds a layer of complexity to every match where every turn you need to take into account "hmm will they terastalize this? if so, what will it be?" in a way that is balanced and fun. For example, if you have breloom and the opponent sends out kingambit, well you just predict the tera ghost and go for spore. Or if you earthquaked a glimmora on its spikes, do you spin now and clear hazard + kill? or do you earthquake predicting the tera ghost. You need to play it intellegently to get the most out of it, both in the builder and battle. Do you tera now to block the spin? or safe it for later to get a sweep?.

This new mechanic that gives the ability to change type on command, or adding an extra oomph to a hit adds so many ways to build a team or play using it or againts it. The outplay potentials of predicting with tera is massive with every turn having a chance of something suddenly changing types, and then you successfully predicting that. The potential in the builder is also great with having some pokemon to be a lure for something else, like garchomp baiting in chien-pao by terastalizing into fire type, resisting icicle crash and hitting back with fire blast.

Its also not impossible to predict, and you usually can tell what pokemon might tera into what based on context of teams. If you see lead glimmora or masquerain, its probably ghost. If its a tank like skeledirge and garganacl, you can safely assume a type that has a lot of resist like water or fairy, if you see kingambit going in vs your chien-pao or great tusk, its probably flying or ghost.

Terastalizing also doesn't just win you on the spot, its not like dynamax where when you click it, you just win with double hp + super boost, no, you only change type or gain an adaptability bonus on one type of move, there is also a cost to it. Yes getting stab E-Speed on Dragonite is powerful but you don't just win on the spot after you do that, you lose your ground immunity and resist to water, because of that you are now vulneable to pokemon like great tusk and body press corviknight which you beat before.

It's not inherently broken because there are a lot of counterplays to it that is reasonable, you dont have to specifically prep or predict for tera, but if you do you will be rewarded for it. In that same regard, Terastalization is also not inherently uncompetitive since using it properly and to its upmost potential requires positioning, playing around and general metagame knowledge. If you know whats popular right now, and what counters it, you have a greater advantage with building using tera.

Here are some replays i have/found where tera is used in ways to predict the opponent's move/attack/pokemon.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1714538341-sjr5ag6o464nhx3jryyt0ouqqwpjsdppw tera poison baxcalibur to beat hawlucha's close combat

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1723868095-0xmveu8qiie731lv9ygj4ads6hagyujpw Garchomp terastalizing into fire type againts my chien-pao predicting icicle crash and hitting it back hard

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1723887972-0hcvbh5ew75x7s5i4arxnmb2hye5kbepw luring my opponent's great tusk with lead glimmora and then nuking it with energy ball

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1720630700-mpwuirnzyev1hqinbj8q22h70uo8qvipw Garchomp in midgame terastalizing into ghost type to stop a rapid spin

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1723911485-pcvy5vqveqeuso4uf73x6tz2ok6g706pw terastalizing my glimmora to grass type to beat my opponent's ting-lu, only to then having my opponent terastalizing their ting-lu into a poison type to counter my grass glimmora and absorb its tspikes.

i do apologize for only having mostly Lure/Utility tera-showcase replays, since i have a habbit of not saving replays, but do assure it can be used defensively and offensively.

If the council wants to do someting as of now, they should try by suspect testing the broken pokemon first instead of terastalization as the metagame hasnt been out for too long and the potential of building and playing with it hasnt been fully realized yet as there have been no major tournaments for good players and builders to discover its true potential.

Terastalization after all, is the new generation's gimmick and banning it or testing it before a major tournament after showing that its not broken or uncompetitive doesn't seem fair.

TL;DR
Do not take actions againts tera, at least not before having one or two major tournaments as it is a complex new mechanic that brings a lot of nuance to the metagame that can be used in many different ways and adds an extra layer of prediction and mindgames both ingame and in the builder. It is not unbalanced because using it properly takes skill and it doesn't just outright win you the game most of the time. It is also not uncompetitive as it does not include major luck based elements.

 

[Jonbot]

In my opinion, we should continue to discuss teraing, but no action should be taken for a few weeks/a month.

Currently, the metagame is unstable and while people are already figuring out which mons are good, we are still pretty fresh from the bundle and palafin bans so I believe that taking action shouldn’t happen immediately, instead we should wait.

As time progresses and the meta becomes more stable, we can take an objective look into whether tera is an issue or not. At that point, broken mons will have been filtered out, new toy syndrome will have gone away and tera types will have been narrowed down into the good options. This may not be the case and we may be in a similar situation we’re in now with a chaotic meta that is constantly in flux, either way we can look into whether tera is broken or not.

Tera isn’t like dmax in the sense that it is impossible to check even if you can reliably guess what is coming. I believe that giving the issue time is the best course of action, at which point we can suspect test it or have a community vote and decide if it is or isn’t busted.

 

[alephgalactus]

I agree with this and would like to elaborate on a weird example.
Let's say for the past 8 generations items didn't exist and in this gen they were added for the first time instead of terastalization. This would add a completely new dimension to the game much like what tera is doing right now. Would people freak out over this massive change and go "Oh no this Garchomp can now outspeed my Dragapult using this scarf shit OR it could passively heal OR it could chip me OR do previously impossible amounts of damage to my defensive wall!" and call for a ban on items? There are hundreds of items one of which any pokemon can hold. Now obviously this isn't the case and there are optimal items that each pokemon can run and we all know that already. I believe this also applies to terastalization. That being said I am an average at best player so do point out if my comparison is outrageous lol.

The difference is that held items have been around since before a good chunk of the playerbase was even born and the meta has had decades to develop around them. They’re as essential to competitive Pokémon as EVs and Abilities, as the abject failure of the Let’s Go “meta” proved. If Tera was as old as that, it would be central to the meta and entertaining the idea of a Tera ban would be just as ridiculous as the idea of an item ban is today. The problem is, Tera isn’t that old and the meta has developed in a way that isn’t remotely prepared for it. It’s the difference between introducing a new species to an environment ten thousand years ago and introducing it today—the only real difference between “cornerstone of the ecosystem” and “invasive species” is time.

 

[Negative Charge]

The difference is that held items have been around since before a good chunk of the playerbase was even born and the meta has had decades to develop around them. They’re as essential to competitive Pokémon as EVs and Abilities, as the abject failure of the Let’s Go “meta” proved. If Tera was as old as that, it would be central to the meta and entertaining the idea of a Tera ban would be just as ridiculous as the idea of an item ban is today. The problem is, Tera isn’t that old and the meta has developed in a way that isn’t remotely prepared for it. It’s the difference between introducing a new species to an environment ten thousand years ago and introducing it today—the only real difference between “cornerstone of the ecosystem” and “invasive species” is time.

But “the meta” is whatever we want it to be each generation. The cool thing is that when the tier is in complete flux, change is possible. The gen 9 meta does not exist yet, we get to pull the levers and push the buttons that will direct where it goes. I think the item comparison is apt.

 

[TheCounterTeamer]

Hi and Hello! I have seen a variety of arguments through the part of the thread I have read (19 pages, kill me now), and I would like to say that Tera points the metagame in a more bulky direction. I’ve seen a lot of complaints regarding defensive Tera being unpredictable, but since that’s the main complaint, the best solution to that is to play more defensively. Defensive Tera is very similar to switching to another mon, but the opportunity cost is different. Instead of swapping to another pokemon to get the advantage, you get your curren pokemon to get the advantage. Well, at least if you are playing against an offense-minded player. A defensive player would switch into a check or counter, and while what that is may change depending on your Tera (for example Tera Steel sub cm Sylveon turns Amoomgus from a check into setup fodder), but that means that Clodsire takes it on much better. On top of that, you can now know your opponent has one less fighting resist, which could make something like Great Tusk a lot better in the endgame.

Also, I see a lot of people comparing Tera to Z Moves, Gems, or even Dynamax somehow. Dynamax is probably the furthest comparison, as it boosts all of your moves and doubles your HP. Strong neutral coverage like Ghost still works. Against Dynamax it didn’t. People also say the fact that Tera lasts the whole battle makes it stronger than Dynamax, but I ask you this: Let’s look at Tera Grass Leaf Blade vs Bloom Doom vs Max Overgrowth on, let’s say, a Decidueye (Yes I know it’s not in the game sue me).
Leaf Blade is 90 base power, Bloom Doom is 180, and Max Overgrowth is 130 and sets Grassy Terrain. Same type Tera gives you a 1.3x (approximately) boost, making Leaf Blade approximately 120 base power. Over 2 turns, the approximate base power of each one would be Bloom Doom plus a Leaf Blade at 270 base power, Dynamax at 303 base power (Max Overgrowth + Terrain Max Overgrowth), and Tera still lagging behind at 240. Turn 3 is Max Overgrowth at 476 base power, Bloom Doom plus Leaf Blade at 360 Base Power, and Tera Leaf Blade tied at 360 as well. If we throw Grass Gem in there (gen 5 edition) we got 315 base power. So in terms of power, Same Type Tera is far from optimal, hitting the same power as Grassium Z after 3 turns, being weaker upon first hit, and losing a defensive type. However, you get an item slot.

Now I know that’s a long and potentially senseless comparison, but it does show that same type isn’t a particularly huge power boost. Yes, you can hold an item with this, but a choice band still makes it take 2 turns to catch up to Z moves, and you can use boosting sets still with Z moves.

Well, I just wrote an entire useless paragraph that I will say right now, stop comparing Tera to other mechanics. As a central gameplay mechanic, it should take more than a few mons being broken with it to get it banned. It should create a power vaccum that makes the first person who Dynamaxes wins or you have to Dynamax to beat the opposing Dynamax. Tera doesn’t do that. In fact, using your Tera first can lose you the game by losing your only Roaring Moon counter, for example.

Ditto is another good comparison to defensive tera vs offense. Scarf Ditto is a headache for offense to deal with, but defensive teams tend to handle it better.

I think that’s all I can write rn, but I’ll link a series of posts that you should 1000% read first.

5Camp’s Post

Clefable’s Post

Porygon2Bandit’s Post

Low Ladder Warrior’s Post

Tera Clip from VannAcessable

Tera, in general: It has been argued how Terastilization favors offense and to be fair that’s true, but come on. Defensive teams are struggling in this meta in general. Look at these over powered Paradox freaks. There’s the bigger issue for stall and balance.

Defensive Tera plays can be utterly gutteral too. Have you ever used a Fire Type Breloom to beat Volcorona 1v1 with Rock Tomb? Because I have. Is it fun having Spore with a fire move to beat grass types trying to absorb it? You better believe it. That’s the type of creative team building and skillful plays Tera enables. I feel like it needs to be explored way more. What about running Fairy Ice Body Avualug in snow for the ultimate physical wall, or Dark type Slowking, for a really friggin sturdy ghost + dark check. We stand at the edge of an unexplored frontier! Frankly it is astonishing the cowardice that sees that and goes, nah, this mechanic favors offense. Let’s ban it so we can have the same-ish meta as the last 3 gens.

This is a cool mechanic that merits limitless exploration and innovation, both offensively and defensively. Does it create 50/50? Why yes it does. Welcome to competitive Pokémon, it’s always been that way. Tera is not immediately overbearing like the garbage mechanic Dynamaxing was, and it can work defensively as well as offensively. I do not support a suspect. If you’re complaining defense is struggling, ban the offensive juggernauts running this meta, and then we’ll talk.

My previous post

edit: While I was writing this more people posted good posts wtf go pro Tera people (I’ll edit in more posts as I find them)

Mimikyu Stardust’s Post (this basically reflects my opinion exactly)

Advaita’s Post

I’d personally say No Tiering Action 100% of the time.