Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[rosesscythes]

Something that I also think may be worth mentioning is that a flat out ban to Tera would be far easier for newer players to understand than a restricted Tera with a bunch of clauses attached to it. What do you think is easier for the fresh 1000 ELO player to understand?

- Tera is banned
- Tera is allowed, but you can't Tera into a type you already are and you have to reveal what Tera types everything is at the start of the battle. Oh and also Tera Blast is banned.

This might seem relatively unimportant, but you have to remember that attracting new players is vital to Smogon's growth and preservation. Having incredibly complicated clauses like this is very off putting for a lot of newer players, because part of what attracted them to Pokemon in the first place is its simplicity.

Just gonna casually claim this 1000 ELO player argument as another argument in favor of a separate Tera meta! New players do still hate bans by instinct, even if older, more experienced players can compellingly point out the ways they work and are reasonable, and a ban to a generation gimmick in particular results in kneejerk reactions. Giving them one less/uncompetitive space still grows Smogon overall, even if it's not contributing to the main OU metagame.

Edit: Also on this note... gonna say my singular piece on Houndstone, which is that while I do understand the reasoning, I think it's a case of Smogon's bluntness and focus on precedent overriding its optics and its foresight. So far, the thread has really treated it as basic fact that Basculegion is going to get Last Respects. With Swift Swim and Basculegion's overall better stats (higher Speed and Attack with relatively equal defenses due to its HP tradeoff), as well as the blunt knowledge of what IS definitely coming in Home (cmon, this is GameFreak we're talking about, they're not ones to deviate from plans like this) not really including anything on paper that stops it... well, sorry to the council, you guys can explain it all you like, but this is a rare case where y'all could've just banned the move and not kicked up nearly as much of a fuss. Certainly could've saved us all from page after page of discourse, and yourselves from extra mod work. Besides, either way, it's gonna be retested when Basculegion comes out for real.

 

[Pluim]

This is actually a great point. Trapinch is not OU material, even with arena trap. Maybe diglett saw OU use with arena trap in the past, but according to the Smogon council’s own logic, Arena Trap should be unbanned and Dugtrio + diglett should be Ubers, because Trapinch, and Trapinch alone, is not broken with the ability.

This is exactly the problem I hope not to come up with Basculin White Stripe. Last Respects is clearly broken, as we have seen, and Houndstone with out it is... far from OU viable. It just so happens that a non fully evolved pokemon has the move and might not be broken with it. And if the argument is banning Last Respects causes colat on White Stripe then that's jsut hypocritical. Basulegion and Houndstone also receive colat if they are banned instead.

That being said I'm fine with a Houndstone ban for now. I just hope that a NFE doesn't prevent Houndstone and Basculegion from ever seeing the light of day. This is a tiering aspect that with all respect, I think should definitely be reassessed. A move can be broken on many mons, but if a singular poekmon can't use if effectively, (In this case not being a ghost type) then that's on the pokemon being bad.

 

[Bugboy]

If you are putting that many restrictions on a mechanic, then yes you are bending over backwards to preserve it. We already did this dance with Aldaron's proposal back in Gen 5, and it's one of the reasons why that gen is in such a horrible state nowadays.

If Tera proves to be problematic as the metagame develops more, then do you really want to be spending that much time on trying to preserve it, which takes up quite a bit of valuable time (That could be spent on focusing on other issues) just try to balance it, or do you just want to cut the head of the snake and be done with it?

Something that I also think may be worth mentioning is that a flat out ban to Tera would be far easier for newer players to understand than a restricted Tera with a bunch of clauses attached to it. What do you think is easier for the fresh 1000 ELO player to understand?

- Tera is banned
- Tera is allowed, but you can't Tera into a type you already are and you have to reveal what Tera types everything is at the start of the battle. Oh and also Tera Blast is banned.

This might seem relatively unimportant, but you have to remember that attracting new players is vital to Smogon's growth and preservation. Having incredibly complicated clauses like this is very off putting for a lot of newer players, because part of what attracted them to Pokemon in the first place is its simplicity.

There are solutions proposed far more simple than the extreme situation you are describing. I am tired of seeing these complex ban arguments that everyone already fully understands the logic behind when people are proposing non-complex solutions. Eventually sounds like an argument with an imaginary person and not the actual points made in the thread.

 

[Thewinner64]

So my friend has been running a set… and at first it seems a little slow to set up, but it’s really quite effective, and it feels like flutter mane never left his team, and can now beat clodsire. Basically, thanks to the ice type weather being changed, only sandstorm is a problem with getting this set up. And sand teams just lost their best sweeper.


Polteageist-Antique @ Focus Sash
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Stored Power
- Tera Blast (Fairy)
- Shadow Ball

Cyclizar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shed Tail
- Draco Meteor
- U-turn
- Knock Off

 

[Finchinator]

I'm surprised how few people are complaining about Gholdengo here. It's role compression is absurd and counter-play seems severely limited, especially considering the variety of sets it can run. It perfectly complements hazard stack HO archetype but fits on any team really. Pretty stupid all things considered.

I find Gholdengo offensively to be good, but not broken necessarily.

The one concept of it I find that may eventually mandate suspect action is the fact that it blocks Rapid Spin and Defog — pairing it with hazard stack can make games pretty silly. I think we are too early in the metagame to worry about this degree of specifics and archetypical nuisances yet though. Maybe it’ll be added to the radar though, we shall see

 

[Da Pizza Man]

There are solutions proposed far more simple than the extreme situation you are describing. I am tired of seeing these complex ban arguments that everyone already fully understands the logic behind when people are proposing non-complex solutions. Eventually sounds like an argument with an imaginary person and not the actual points made in the thread.

I literally took all of the suggestions that the user I quoted made and took them together into one clause. Don't accuse me of strawmanning an argument when you don't know what's being said.

 

[Ruparajan]

I have not seen many people discussing iron moth. Iron moth seems like a strong sweeper who is not where near the radar. It has access to agility and fiery dance (50% chance to increase s.atk traded with 10 extra damage). It seems stong as a sweeper and beats every team if you can save the terastal for it. Here is my set-
https://pokepast.es/5fda0572d5e1f49f

 

[Beaf Cultist]

There are solutions proposed far more simple than the extreme situation you are describing. I am tired of seeing these complex ban arguments that everyone already fully understands the logic behind when people are proposing non-complex solutions. Eventually sounds like an argument with an imaginary person and not the actual points made in the thread.

Your 'proposed solution' is not that simple and dodges the main issue. This has already been discussed multiple times. Not really much else to say on that topic, and I wish you'd stop bringing it up.

 

[fratelli bc]

tera list on team preview or separate metagame

Well, those are good suggestions but... I don't know. I feel like I am not capable of judging this. Historically, smogon had not included something that affects competitive that are not in the main games, like tera-type on team preview. But again, last gen was the first time a whole mechanic was deemed broken even for Ubers. I really don't know.

I liked the idea of "separate metagame" actually, but i think this will result in too much metas to be made, and this is not even discussion for OU. Again, I feel that i'm not capable of judging this.

 

[a_person_159]

the problem i have with comparing tera to items is the difference in power. offensively, tera gives a 1.33-1.5x power boost, while no-drawback items generally cap at a 1.2x power boost. items which give a power boost comparable to tera (like life orb or choice items) have huge drawbacks to compensate for the power that significantly interfere with their sweeping potential and allow for defensive counterplay, drawbacks which tera doesn't have.

defensive tera is even more absurd. i saw salamence vs weavile above, so i'll use that as an example.
weavile can easily revenge kill dragon dance salamence, but salamence might be running yache berry, which lowers its 4x ice weakness to a 2x weakness, once. this would allow it to survive 1 ice shard:

252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Salamence: 152-180 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 47.3% chance to 2HKO

which would allow +1/+1 salamence to KO weavile in return. but yache berry isn't perfect. for starters, it isn't heavy-duty boots, which makes it harder for mence to get in and set up safely due to rocks damage. also, you're still taking a 2x effective weavile ice shard - mence is bulky, but after rocks and ice shard you're only at around 25% health. that can be played around. that's not even accounting for the fact that it doesn't even live banded ice shard after rocks:

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Salamence: 246-290 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

but what about tera steel mence? now you're turning that 4x ice weakness into a 0.5x ice resistance - a difference of 8 times - and it's completely permanent, meaning not even multiple ice shards can kill. i mean, look at this:

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 61-72 (18.4 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO

this turns banded weavile from being able to easily threaten mence into setup fodder. like, seriously. sweepers can easily terastallize and use their newfound defensive profile to set up on their checks. and sure, you can predict the tera, but this limits offensive counterplay to mons which not only check the base forms, but also every single possible tera type. and you also have to guess which tera type they're using - on mons with multiple viable tera types, this quickly becomes a nightmare.

the final thing that makes tera overpowered is the insane coverage tera blast brings. any offensive mon can have a 120 power move of any type they want, and they can use it as much as they want until it faints, which limits counterplay even more.

the end result is that it's way too easy for any pokemon to use tera to snowball out of control and sweep entire teams. it's the same problem as dynamax - it gives insane upsides that benefit sweepers way more than other pokemon. giving it its own ladder might be a good solution for people who like it/want to use the generational gimmick, but i can't see it being balanced in standard play.

 

[Bugboy]

I literally took all of the suggestions that the user I quoted made and took them together into one clause. Don't accuse me of strawmanning an argument when you don't know what's being said.

The post you quoted says absolutely none of that and is instead referencing a simple solution you ignored…?

 

[Da Pizza Man]

The post you quoted says absolutely none of that and is instead referencing a simple solution you ignored…?

You sure?

Don't immediately ban Tera as a whole. Aim to tame it and give it time with various nerfs to try and keep it in the game. This isn't like DMax where it's completely unrealistic. If there's gonna be a ban I urge everyone to consider limiting it to one designated Pokemon per team that is announced to the opponent. This mechanic is fascinating and deserves to be moderated rather than completely removed. It's been a blast in doubles and I don't want to see every meta just throw it out the window. If having one Mon with it clear to the opponent is still too much then more action is appropriate but at the very least it must be given time and nerfs. People kept Drizzle around in BW for ages and went through bans for it, as did Baton Pass's messy history. It is not out of the question to attempt to tame Tera types. This gen has so much potential in it for Tera and I don't want to see it gone immediately

As for paradox Mons I believe removing Booster Energy should be taken into account. Pardon me if I'm late on info, I've been grinding SFIV for a tourney and I haven't had time to read through this. Booster Energy is a free one time boost that you get off the rip with a plethora of powerful Mons. I know sun still enables Mons like Flutter to be menaces to society but at least you can do something vs weather. These Mons need time to settle down rather than a Battle Spot Singles supreme item ruining their potential and reputation

Then in the case of double STAB you make it so you cannot Tera into your own type. This took two seconds to think of and has been suggested by others already

Only one I got wrong was the Tera Blast ban (I just remembered him talking about moves and Tera so they sort of meshed together. That one was my bad, whoops), and even then it was in place of something even more complex (Which was only allowing a single designated Pokemon to Terastallize) so I guess it evens out in the end.

 

[5camp]

The problem with your Salamence analogy is that all of those instances require some sort of trade-off. Yache Berry means you aren’t running a better boosting item, Choice Scarf means you can’t set up, etc. If it has defensive EVs then its not going to be as fast or as powerful. Besides, each of those examples can be discovered by the player through normal gameplay. If I see your Mence is faster than Pokemon its not supposed to be then I know its scarfed. I can look at damage rolls to know what item you may be running. Etc etc. There is no way to adequately predict which of the 18 Tera types your opponent may be running or which of the 6 Pokemon on their team they may activate it on. It requires no sacrifices on the team-builder side, unlike your examples. Surprise and prediction are part of Pokemon but certainly we agree it can go too far.

Also you say that you are unsure if Tera should be banned but then say that same-type Tera should be banned. Seems to me you’re on the ban side! Same-Type Tera is part of Tera, and dont think its a good idea to start splitting up a mechanic and picking and choosing what aspects we want and what aspects we dont.

For the record, I am all for keeping Tera if it can be demonstrated that it adds a layer of competitiveness and strategy but so far I have not seen any arguments to that point, and so far it has shown to add nothing but guesswork and unpredictability, far beyond any mechanic we’ve seen in the game so far.

When you say there is an opportunity cost to using yache berry over a different item as a downside to using yache berry, that's not actually a downside to items in general. That's comparable to the opportunity cost of using one tera type over another. Same with EVs, you're describing an opportunity cost, not the cost of investing EVs at all.

To put it another way, imagine if held items were only just announced for this generation. It would be considered wildly uncompetitive since the items are usually hidden, completely change speed tiers and attack powers of pokemon, give pokemon healing capabilities they normally don't have, and enable bullshit strategies that break some pokemon and abilities due to unlimited healing through leftovers.

However we have decided as a community we prefer a game with items due to the added complexity and strategies it enables. Same with EVs. Tera is another mechanic hidden during the battle phase until revealed. Once upon a time even the actual Pokemon themselves were hidden until revealed. People are saying the reason they want to keep tera is because they like it is the same as that. I love the added layer when building a team and choosing the tera types of all my Pokemon. Some Pokemon I'll build around their tera type more specifically. Others I'll try to think of scenarios where I might need to check something I can't otherwise. That's fun.

(incidentally this is why I don't like same type tera. I don't find simply powering up your base attacks particularly engaging since it eliminates the need for moveslot variation to beat counters. It's probably not more powerful overall than changing type to beat a revenge killer, but gosh is it stupid and boring)

If tera gets banned, it's because it enables sweepers too easily to beat their counters and snowball harder. So much so that banning one tera abuser just has its spot filled by another. This is what everyone knew would happen with dynamax, so there was no point in pretending we would ever reach a state where the game didn't entirely revolve around snowballing dynamax harder. For tera, if we ban Roaring Moon, will their spot just get taken by Volcarona, Salamence, Gyarados, etc? I think we probably will if I'm being completely honest, but it's not as clear cut and, since I enjoy the mechanic, I'd like to see an attempt to balance the meta before axing the mechanic entirely.

 

[Bugboy]

You sure?





Only one I got wrong was the Tera Blast ban (I just remembered him talking about moves and Tera so they sort of meshed together. That one was my bad), and even then it was in place of something even more complex (Which was only allowing a single designated Pokemon to Terastallize) so I guess it evens out in the end.

Then I apologize for not reading the users post history and instead reading the specific post you quoted lol.

 

[Finchinator]

Let’s not derail on this tangent. I think the useful life of this subtopic of conversation is over

what do people think about Iron Bundle?

 

[a_person_159]

When you say there is an opportunity cost to using yache berry over a different item as a downside to using yache berry, that's not actually a downside to items in general. That's comparable to the opportunity cost of using one tera type over another. Same with EVs, you're describing an opportunity cost, not the cost of investing EVs at all.

To put it another way, imagine if held items were only just announced for this generation. It would be considered wildly uncompetitive since the items are usually hidden, completely change speed tiers and attack powers of pokemon, give pokemon healing capabilities they normally don't have, and enable bullshit strategies that break some pokemon and abilities due to unlimited healing through leftovers.

However we have decided as a community we prefer a game with items due to the added complexity and strategies it enables. Same with EVs. Tera is another mechanic hidden during the battle phase until revealed. Once upon a time even the actual Pokemon themselves were hidden until revealed. People are saying the reason they want to keep tera is because they like it is the same as that. I love the added layer when building a team and choosing the tera types of all my Pokemon. Some Pokemon I'll build around their tera type more specifically. Others I'll try to think of scenarios where I might need to check something I can't otherwise. That's fun.

(incidentally this is why I don't like same type tera. I don't find simply powering up your base attacks particularly engaging since it eliminates the need for moveslot variation to beat counters. It's probably not more powerful overall than changing type to beat a revenge killer, but gosh is it stupid and boring)

If tera gets banned, it's because it enables sweepers too easily to beat their counters and snowball harder. So much so that banning one tera abuser just has its spot filled by another. This is what everyone knew would happen with dynamax, so there was no point in pretending we would ever reach a state where the game didn't entirely revolve around snowballing dynamax harder. For tera, if we ban Roaring Moon, will their spot just get taken by Volcarona, Salamence, Gyarados, etc? I think we probably will if I'm being completely honest, but it's not as clear cut and, since I enjoy the mechanic, I'd like to see an attempt to balance the meta before axing the mechanic entirely.

agreed. again, the between tera and items is the insane power, lack of real downsides, and over-benefitting sweepers, similarly to dmax. it is a very interesting idea, and it's sad that it's so unbalanced in singles. it'd be cool to see an om/pet mod where it was actually balanced.

 

[yeet dab xd]

This is actually a great point. Trapinch is not OU material, even with arena trap. Maybe diglett saw OU use with arena trap in the past, but according to the Smogon council’s own logic, Arena Trap should be unbanned and Dugtrio + diglett should be Ubers, because Trapinch, and Trapinch alone, is not broken with the ability.

NGL it's a bit disingenuous to call bascu-white striped an NFE mon and compare it to Trapinch when it's a formerly FE mon that was capable in lower tiers - the stats are usable beyond pure gimmick, akin to a Sneasel or Rhydon. I think the lil guy could definitely have success with the move, even though it doesn't get STAB. It'll still be able to use adaptability-boosted water moves so its not like it'll be complete dead weight until the team is half dead, and it'll be the fastest user outside of sand.
If it does end up being a gimmick shitmon though then yeah there's no reason for legion and houndstone to be stuck in ubers because of it

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

I just want to push back on this and say that unpredictability and randomness are not the same thing. Making a play with tera, whether the situation favors you or not, is an expression of skill, not of luck.

To put it another way, making a read on an opponent's tera type or terastalizing yourself to get/avoid a KO are moments when you outplayed your opponent. Getting a flinch or a high roll are not.

1) if you get a good tera against an opponents tera that can be a game end right away. getting a fairy dragapult vs a normal dragapult who cannot predict what so ever and their best play is to dragon darts, just absolutely gets rekt if they draco or dragon drats the dragapult ow u get free 2dd for free which is sometimes an auto win esp against the very offensive meta rn
2) there is no skill what so ever in seeing a good MU for you that your opponent has no way of knowing or scouting correctly, this feels like gems in a way as you may predict correctly that they are tera fairy, but what if the dragapult is tera normal? you shadow ball predicting the fairy tera but instead get absolutely rekt and now you are in the same situation which is in no way skill based? What if you predict both and switch out to lets say umbreon to scout both and be able to react accordingly? They dragon tera and just dragon darts to you and 2hko you instead weakening a crucial pokemon that was useful for you and now you still have to deal with a dragapult but ur down a mon .

I believe its banworthy in every way and form since u just cant predict the counterplay since to each tera there is different countplay and you cannot just scout for one since its not releveled on preview

 

[bdt2002]

I’ve been lurking around the new SV threads for a little while now out of curiosity, and while I don’t want to act like I’m some longtime OU veteran player… this cycle of “What’s the most banworthy stuff?” doesn’t seem like it’s adding anything positive to the early development of this tier, at least in my opinion. Gen 9 OU ladder has only been live for, what, two or three days? Something like that? It’s way too early to be theorizing what’s overpowered without letting different playstyles try to establish themselves. I get it, the beginning of all new generations can be chaotic, but that doesn’t mean uneducated discussion needs to take priority over players experimenting to paint a more accurate picture of what Gen 9 OU could and/or should be, depending on who you ask.

Also, while I’m here, can I also ask that we lay off some of the toxic commentary? You guys know who you are, and while I won’t call out names, the last thing an already controversial new tier needs is people trying to ruin the experience for others with snarky attitudes. Thank you for coming to my TED talk, and hopefully I don’t need to make a post like this again. I just want to try and enjoy this tier’s development like anyone else.

 

[Clas]

Wow. 18 pages of an absolute shit-storm following Houndstone's ban.

As a part of the agency myself, I can see why people reacted the way they did in the comments of blunder's video, and also in this thread. However there's no need to be a dick about it. Basculegion will undoubtedly be quickbanned within 24 hours of Home's release, but the question is whether we should ban Last Respects the move or the Pokemon themselves. This is my proposition to the council, and they revolve around the NFE Pokemon, Basculin:

View attachment 467473​

Option 1: If Basculin is found to be broken with Last Respects, then Last Respects the move should be banned. Drop Houndstone and Basculegion out of Ubers.

Option 2: If Basculin is found to be balanced with Last Respects, then Houndstone and Basculegion should stay in Ubers.
____

Dracovish in Generation 8 would not be broken without Fishous Rend.

Yet the council decided to ban Dracovish the Pokemon.​

Why? Because banning Fishous Rend is unnecessary collateral damage to Arctovish.

Zygarde in Generation 7 would not be broken without Thousand Arrows.

Yet the council decided to ban Zygarde the Pokemon.​

Why? Because banning Thousand Arrows is unnecessary collateral damage to Zygarde-10%.

Based on the precedent Smogon has done with their tiering in the past, the smartest thing to do is wait until Pokemon Home comes out and see if Basculin is found to be broken, even with Last Respects. Banning Last Respects is not a complex ban. You're just banning a move.

If this is still too hard for you to understand, then I'm not sure what to say. I kept this post as simple as possible.

Thanks.

too late my guy, admins said no

 

[KrazyKoopa95]

Legit question:

Does Rage Fist’s base power increase via:
1- indirect damage (Spikes, Rocks, Sand, etc…)?
2- Increase if hit behind a sub?

 

[rosesscythes]

Let’s not derail on this tangent. I think the useful life of this subtopic of conversation is over

what do people think about Iron Bundle?

Ohhhhh god, I've already expressed this, but I hate this thing. Yeah, it only gets a few moves, but Water and Ice coverage is notably spectacular, especially considering Freeze Dry destroys Water Absorb Pokemon. Fast enough and strong enough to destroy the majority of checks otherwise bar Gholdengo, particularly with the freedom it gets to either boost Sp. Attack or Speed. Furthermore, the Snow buff means it can double its high Defense too, making every priority move in the game thud against it unless you're counting Lucario Vacuum Wave. Blissey will counter it too once Blissey is actually viable, sure... until it starts running Sub + Encore or Encore + Taunt to beat that. Just very thoroughly unpleasant, to the point it gives me Kyurem flashbacks. It'll be suspected, but god I'd prefer a quick ban.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Let’s not derail on this tangent. I think the useful life of this subtopic of conversation is over

what do people think about Iron Bundle?

ok.... that is what I can describe it... there is just so much new toy syndrome going on and I see so little iron bundle due to palafin, chien-pao, Baxcalibur, and quaquaval which just seem to be used much more than it. But water/ice coverage sounds nice esp with freeze dry, high speed tier, nice damage output, and shutting down walls with encore. But its just not strong enough as I like and with such an offensive meta it just gives opportunities esp with neutral hits feel that they do not do enough... but idk

 

[Turtleye_]

Let’s not derail on this tangent. I think the useful life of this subtopic of conversation is over

what do people think about Iron Bundle?

Really hard to prepare for. Almost all of the current Special Walls - or at least the ones I tried out/ran into during Flutter's reign of terror - lose to it 1v1. Clodsire, Dondozo, Amoonguss, Corviknight, Gastrodon, etc. Freeze Dry + Hydro Pump is all the coverage it needs, which means it gets 2 moveslots to customize whatever it needs. Terablast, Taunt, Encore, Sub, Agility all seem really good utility options, and you can also just run Flip Turn and/or Ice Beam. It even gets whirlpool if you want to meme things out.

Basically the only mon that can last long-term vs this thing is Blissey, and that is only if Bundle doesnt have Taunt

Iron Bundle @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Freeze-Dry
- Agility
- Substitute /T aunt

This is the set I'm most worried about, it outspeeds the entire tier after an agility and gets a +1 with Booster Energy. It's not as good into Offense as it is into Fat teams since it gets less opportunity to set up and running Modest over Timid leaves it outsped by a variety of things. Notably, +Spe Meowscarada, +1 Adamant DNite, +Spe Chien Pao, and +Spe Cyclizar. However this set completely dunks on any common defensive core:

+1 252+ SpA Iron Bundle Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 374-444 (74.2 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 220-259 (30.8 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Sylveon: 187-222 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Iron Bundle Freeze-Dry vs. 236 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 306-360 (71.4 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Figy Berry recovery

...There's really not much to do here. It does have some glaring drawbacks in that Hydro only has 8 PP, and it would like all three of Taunt, Sub and Agility. Pump also not being 100% accurate can stop its sweeps too.

Also its high defense means its not easily revenge'd by even breloom:
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 176-210 (69.5 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And you could always tera into something like Water to circumvent this entirely.

On paper it sounds really, really strong, I've not used it much yet, waiting for the Flutter ban to be implemented before I make new teams with it. Its flaws might prove too much in this offensive metagame but it would not surprise me 1one bit if Bundle rises up as a 1 teamslot answer to BO/Balance teams

 

[Winddragon48]

I'm as scared of iron bundle as much as people are scared of Robo-Santa in futurama as compared to normal Santa

I'd say it's early and doesn't neccesarily warrent a quick ban but it's definitely in my top 5 mons (that aren't already banned) that I immediately noteif I see it in preview