Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hi and Hello! I have seen a variety of arguments through the part of the thread I have read (19 pages, kill me now), and I would like to say that Tera points the metagame in a more bulky direction. I’ve seen a lot of complaints regarding defensive Tera being unpredictable, but since that’s the main complaint, the best solution to that is to play more defensively. Defensive Tera is very similar to switching to another mon, but the opportunity cost is different. Instead of swapping to another pokemon to get the advantage, you get your curren pokemon to get the advantage. Well, at least if you are playing against an offense-minded player. A defensive player would switch into a check or counter, and while what that is may change depending on your Tera (for example Tera Steel sub cm Sylveon turns Amoomgus from a check into setup fodder), but that means that Clodsire takes it on much better. On top of that, you can now know your opponent has one less fighting resist, which could make something like Great Tusk a lot better in the endgame.

Also, I see a lot of people comparing Tera to Z Moves, Gems, or even Dynamax somehow. Dynamax is probably the furthest comparison, as it boosts all of your moves and doubles your HP. Strong neutral coverage like Ghost still works. Against Dynamax it didn’t. People also say the fact that Tera lasts the whole battle makes it stronger than Dynamax, but I ask you this: Let’s look at Tera Grass Leaf Blade vs Bloom Doom vs Max Overgrowth on, let’s say, a Decidueye (Yes I know it’s not in the game sue me).
Leaf Blade is 90 base power, Bloom Doom is 180, and Max Overgrowth is 130 and sets Grassy Terrain. Same type Tera gives you a 1.3x (approximately) boost, making Leaf Blade approximately 120 base power. Over 2 turns, the approximate base power of each one would be Bloom Doom plus a Leaf Blade at 270 base power, Dynamax at 303 base power (Max Overgrowth + Terrain Max Overgrowth), and Tera still lagging behind at 240. Turn 3 is Max Overgrowth at 476 base power, Bloom Doom plus Leaf Blade at 360 Base Power, and Tera Leaf Blade tied at 360 as well. If we throw Grass Gem in there (gen 5 edition) we got 315 base power. So in terms of power, Same Type Tera is far from optimal, hitting the same power as Grassium Z after 3 turns, being weaker upon first hit, and losing a defensive type. However, you get an item slot.

Now I know that’s a long and potentially senseless comparison, but it does show that same type isn’t a particularly huge power boost. Yes, you can hold an item with this, but a choice band still makes it take 2 turns to catch up to Z moves, and you can use boosting sets still with Z moves.

Well, I just wrote an entire useless paragraph that I will say right now, stop comparing Tera to other mechanics. As a central gameplay mechanic, it should take more than a few mons being broken with it to get it banned. It should create a power vaccum that makes the first person who Dynamaxes wins or you have to Dynamax to beat the opposing Dynamax. Tera doesn’t do that. In fact, using your Tera first can lose you the game by losing your only Roaring Moon counter, for example.

Ditto is another good comparison to defensive tera vs offense. Scarf Ditto is a headache for offense to deal with, but defensive teams tend to handle it better.

I think that’s all I can write rn, but I’ll link a series of posts that you should 1000% read first.

5Camp’s Post

Clefable’s Post

Porygon2Bandit’s Post

Low Ladder Warrior’s Post

Tera, in general: It has been argued how Terastilization favors offense and to be fair that’s true, but come on. Defensive teams are struggling in this meta in general. Look at these over powered Paradox freaks. There’s the bigger issue for stall and balance.

Defensive Tera plays can be utterly gutteral too. Have you ever used a Fire Type Breloom to beat Volcorona 1v1 with Rock Tomb? Because I have. Is it fun having Spore with a fire move to beat grass types trying to absorb it? You better believe it. That’s the type of creative team building and skillful plays Tera enables. I feel like it needs to be explored way more. What about running Fairy Ice Body Avualug in snow for the ultimate physical wall, or Dark type Slowking, for a really friggin sturdy ghost + dark check. We stand at the edge of an unexplored frontier! Frankly it is astonishing the cowardice that sees that and goes, nah, this mechanic favors offense. Let’s ban it so we can have the same-ish meta as the last 3 gens.

This is a cool mechanic that merits limitless exploration and innovation, both offensively and defensively. Does it create 50/50? Why yes it does. Welcome to competitive Pokémon, it’s always been that way. Tera is not immediately overbearing like the garbage mechanic Dynamaxing was, and it can work defensively as well as offensively. I do not support a suspect. If you’re complaining defense is struggling, ban the offensive juggernauts running this meta, and then we’ll talk.

My previous post

edit: While I was writing this more people posted good posts wtf go pro Tera people (I’ll edit in more posts as I find them)

Mimikyu Stardust’s Post (this basically reflects my opinion exactly)

Advaita’s Post

I’d personally say No Tiering Action 100% of the time.
 
Last edited:
Usually I try to read the thread before commenting, but I've got a job and stuff, so:

The only two options that make sense to me are Outright Ban and No Action.

If Tera stays, we're probably looking at a perpetual state of suspects and re-tests as new `mons are introduced and new strategies become dominant, and this will probably be true in every tier, including a likely laundry list of bans from Ubers to AG. We'll all get used to regularly getting wrecked or wrecking people on the basis of a single bad decision, and we'll do it because, collectively, we decided that we prefer a metagame that provides some great surprise moments through nerve-wracking standoffs and unexpected techs. That is the biggest single benefit of terastallizing to the game, with new team-building options being secondary. Neutering tera neuters those surprises, which, to me, takes away most of the thrill of having it available.

Looking through the proposed options, none of them solve the mechanical issues of terastallizing while maintaining this fundamental "Evo Moment 37"-type benefit. Going through the list of initial proposals:

Tera Blast is not the most broken thing about Tera by a long shot, and there aren't a whole lot of `mons that are added to the "broken by Tera" list just by virtue of getting a new option to tech their counters. Palafin didn't become busted by running Tera Electric to wreck bulky waters. ESpeed Dragonite can benfit greatly from a Steel Tera type without running any Steel attacks. The list goes on and on and on. What are we balancing by doing this. Volcarona?

Limiting Tera type to existing STABS just feels pedantic. It's keeping Tera around in name only. Oh, cool, you made strong `mons stronger. That's a fun "generational gimmick". I guess my boy Lokix is more likely to stick in OU with the extra oomph of Bug Tera, but is that worth the cost in Ghost Tera Dragapult being everywhere? Next.

Showing Tera Types at preview is...meh. We have a lot of asymmetric knowledge in pokemon already. You don't know what moves your opponent is running. You don't know their items or their abilities. You infer it as best you can from known trends and team construction, bring your plan to the table, and adapt. Showing tera types is just making things more accessible to people who don't want to learn the tier while taking away the opportunity to tech off of it.

The problem with Tera isn't the unknown type. It's the unknown *when*. As I'm sure others have said, 50/50 predictions are already everywhere in Pokemon. Switches, taunting/subbing, etc on top of the inherent randomness of things like speed ties and damage/accuracy rolls. The problem with tera is that every turn until your opponent terastallizes something introduces another variable that provides far more benefit to the player with the best option to situationally terastallize. And this is driven mostly by the single turn defensive implications that can't be countered by good team building. Yeah, you may have a perfect counter to a Normal Tera Dragonite on your team, but you don't know when it's going from Dragon/Flying to Normal, and you can't counter both of those typings at once, whether you know the tera type or not.

Having a designated tera user makes a tiny bit more sense in that it at least tells you which pokemon you need to be wary of and limits the number of turns with that variance, but that "when" question and the leverage it creates remain. That's what ultimately broke Dynamax, IMO, and it's the same here.

The only option I can think of that would eliminate that would be if a pokemon can only terastallize on its first turn on the battlefield. Then, tera just becomes another tech you can run instead of a constant mind game (especially if this is combined with the "limiting which pokemon can tera option, functionally making it match the in-game usage by gym leaders and such). This more interesting team-building wise than "only existing STAB tera types" and more balanced than "show tera types", but it's also less exciting gameplay-wise than vanilla terastallizing. It is also faaaar too big a deviation from the cartridge to be considered a "gentlemen's agreement" type of rule, and thus infeasible.

So, yeah, if our options either (1) Fail to solve the mechanical problems of terastallizing (2) Make it deeply uninteresting or (3) are outside the realm of reasonable action, then all of our options for limiting terastallization are bad.

Personally, I think we make the most enjoyable day-to-day experience by just axing it altogether. There are so. freaking. many. good new `mons in this game. Like, so many. I don't think we need the gimmick to keep things exciting and fresh. And while we may miss out on some crazy ish by banning terastallizing, I think it's probably worth our sanity in the end.
 
The difference is that held items have been around since before a good chunk of the playerbase was even born and the meta has had decades to develop around them. They’re as essential to competitive Pokémon as EVs and Abilities, as the abject failure of the Let’s Go “meta” proved. If Tera was as old as that, it would be central to the meta and entertaining the idea of a Tera ban would be just as ridiculous as the idea of an item ban is today. The problem is, Tera isn’t that old and the meta has developed in a way that isn’t remotely prepared for it. It’s the difference between introducing a new species to an environment ten thousand years ago and introducing it today—the only real difference between “cornerstone of the ecosystem” and “invasive species” is time.
Yeah definitely which is why I proposed the what if scenario where items were only introduced recently. Since items have developed throughout the gens and has become a core part of pokemon, the mere thought of banning items sounds ridiculous now. Similarly I think if tera can develop (to a lesser extent than items obviously) it can be embedded into the game in a healthy way which promotes good teambuilding and play, similar to items.
 
I agree, many jumping in the tera ban seem to just want the same gameplay style as prior gens and take the least amount of change possible in this new gen. They are imo as you say, very conservative and as such dislike any big changes.

At the very least Tera should be given a lot more time before considering any kind of ban or restrictions. I still have yet to find a game where i can say i lost because my opponent Terastalized and i felt my loss was unfair.

So far imo its great, and many issues might lay with some of the mons running free in the meta, some of wich have become even stronger thanks to recent bans. Chi-Yu (unwallable right now in sun), Annihilape (crazy strong but maybe not enough to justify ban), Dondozo (physical blissey with unaware/Uber quagsire)...
I jokes with brouha a few days ago that Gen 15 OU will play the same with just more Pokemon, items and moves; with Lando-T and Heatran at S Rank in the VR lol
 
I don’t think we should ban terra. It’s an interesting mechanic and it’s too soon to decide if we have to ban it or no. Also banning the main new thing of gen 9 would be annoying. Dynamax was overpowered everyone agrees on that and deserved its ban. But terra has actually many use it’s not just aeromax and winning. It’s much more balanced. But if we absolutely have to balance it, I suggest that terra types can only be used if the pokemon has a move that is of the same type in its moveset (terrablast doesn’t count). Like if a pokemon only has rock and normal moves he can only terrastalize in those types. I think it’s a pretty good nerf without ruining the mechanic and banning it which would bored people like me.
 
it, I suggest that terra types can only be used if the pokemon has a move that is of the same type in its moveset (terrablast doesn’t count).


I'm just curious , how does this solve the correct issue outside of fringe cases ?

Just off the top of my head, things like Dnite , Volcarona, and Pult , Espathra , slowking, And Chien Pao are all using moves that abuse their preferred Tera type. Dnite would only lose out on Tera steel ( but can still run fire and normal) , espathra only losing out on Tera fighting) . The only thing that really gets nerfed here if I'm understanding correctly is Tera Water Annihilape
 
Tera is not much of a issue, it's not a overwhelming "bullshit win" button that is ban worthy. If a player clicks the Tera button, there is a clear opportunity cost. The team defenses might be compromised with the changed typing. This allows the opponent an opening that otherwise wouldn't exist, many multi-layered mind games occur because of that. In the builder, Tera will just be another form of a skill gap seperating the innovative and adaptable builders from the stagnant and predictable. In high level tournament play, that is a reward for the more prepared player. I think keeping Tera around will be healthier than tossing it off like Dmax last gen. It'll be a defining trait that fits well in this new faster paced meta.
 
Last edited:

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
is a Top Tutoris a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
RMT Leader
I think if anyone says Tera is balanced, you're living in altered state. Sure I understand the concern that people have with partial bans because it can end up being a sticky situation from altering cart mechanics. I even understand the concern of an outright ban 10 days of the game being released. But to say that Tera is balanced is not a careful statement, of all the 4 Pokémons that were banned (so far) they might have not been banned if Tera was banned outright. The ability to change your type on call when you see someone's about to use a super effective move so you can live the hit is the definition of not utilizing skill, you can have 6 Pokémon and give it a different type and make sure you're never hit by a super effective move (at least the 1 time you use it). How does that induce skill? (That's just a security blanket)

In my opinion Tera has killed off stall because of Tera Blast (not even regarding recovery move PP reduction) or the sheer power of some of the Paradox Pokémons. Terastalization makes the metagame unbalanced, it really makes it a difficult thing to prepare for and if you're not doing your due diligence when accounting for an adaptability boost or even a type change you'll lose the game even if you have the better team from a matchup perspective.

Okay fine don't ban Terastalization now (if it's too soon), lets live in a unbalanced metagame until we all get sick of it and complain about it more harshly in a couple of months. Anyone stating they want no action are always putting (for now) next to their statement because their argument is that it's too soon and it's a core mechanic to gen 9.
 
Usually I try to read the thread before commenting, but I've got a job and stuff, so:

The only two options that make sense to me are Outright Ban and No Action.

If Tera stays, we're probably looking at a perpetual state of suspects and re-tests as new `mons are introduced and new strategies become dominant, and this will probably be true in every tier, including a likely laundry list of bans from Ubers to AG. We'll all get used to regularly getting wrecked or wrecking people on the basis of a single bad decision, and we'll do it because, collectively, we decided that we prefer a metagame that provides some great surprise moments through nerve-wracking standoffs and unexpected techs. That is the biggest single benefit of terastallizing to the game, with new team-building options being secondary. Neutering tera neuters those surprises, which, to me, takes away most of the thrill of having it available.

Looking through the proposed options, none of them solve the mechanical issues of terastallizing while maintaining this fundamental "Evo Moment 37"-type benefit. Going through the list of initial proposals:

Tera Blast is not the most broken thing about Tera by a long shot, and there aren't a whole lot of `mons that are added to the "broken by Tera" list just by virtue of getting a new option to tech their counters. Palafin didn't become busted by running Tera Electric to wreck bulky waters. ESpeed Dragonite can benfit greatly from a Steel Tera type without running any Steel attacks. The list goes on and on and on. What are we balancing by doing this. Volcarona?

Limiting Tera type to existing STABS just feels pedantic. It's keeping Tera around in name only. Oh, cool, you made strong `mons stronger. That's a fun "generational gimmick". I guess my boy Lokix is more likely to stick in OU with the extra oomph of Bug Tera, but is that worth the cost in Ghost Tera Dragapult being everywhere? Next.

Showing Tera Types at preview is...meh. We have a lot of asymmetric knowledge in pokemon already. You don't know what moves your opponent is running. You don't know their items or their abilities. You infer it as best you can from known trends and team construction, bring your plan to the table, and adapt. Showing tera types is just making things more accessible to people who don't want to learn the tier while taking away the opportunity to tech off of it.

The problem with Tera isn't the unknown type. It's the unknown *when*. As I'm sure others have said, 50/50 predictions are already everywhere in Pokemon. Switches, taunting/subbing, etc on top of the inherent randomness of things like speed ties and damage/accuracy rolls. The problem with tera is that every turn until your opponent terastallizes something introduces another variable that provides far more benefit to the player with the best option to situationally terastallize. And this is driven mostly by the single turn defensive implications that can't be countered by good team building. Yeah, you may have a perfect counter to a Normal Tera Dragonite on your team, but you don't know when it's going from Dragon/Flying to Normal, and you can't counter both of those typings at once, whether you know the tera type or not.

Having a designated tera user makes a tiny bit more sense in that it at least tells you which pokemon you need to be wary of and limits the number of turns with that variance, but that "when" question and the leverage it creates remain. That's what ultimately broke Dynamax, IMO, and it's the same here.

The only option I can think of that would eliminate that would be if a pokemon can only terastallize on its first turn on the battlefield. Then, tera just becomes another tech you can run instead of a constant mind game (especially if this is combined with the "limiting which pokemon can tera option, functionally making it match the in-game usage by gym leaders and such). This more interesting team-building wise than "only existing STAB tera types" and more balanced than "show tera types", but it's also less exciting gameplay-wise than vanilla terastallizing. It is also faaaar too big a deviation from the cartridge to be considered a "gentlemen's agreement" type of rule, and thus infeasible.

So, yeah, if our options either (1) Fail to solve the mechanical problems of terastallizing (2) Make it deeply uninteresting or (3) are outside the realm of reasonable action, then all of our options for limiting terastallization are bad.

Personally, I think we make the most enjoyable day-to-day experience by just axing it altogether. There are so. freaking. many. good new `mons in this game. Like, so many. I don't think we need the gimmick to keep things exciting and fresh. And while we may miss out on some crazy ish by banning terastallizing, I think it's probably worth our sanity in the end.
I do not personally jive with the conclusion of this post, albeit it's so very much an opinion, I'd like to share my own which I (think) I've implied?

Personally, I would be very dismayed if the standard for every new generation on Smogon to just be items, Pokemon and moves. While those are great and all, I personally feel like there is something to say for generations having mechanics that make them much more unique, and that's why when I think about my favorite generations to play; they have an identity *beyond* what Pokemon are good and viable.

Gens 3, 4 and 7 are probably my favorite main generations competitively, and all of them have, to me, a feel. Generation 5, 6 and 8 are personally not that appealing due to the teams most viable (despite arguments here, I'd say most matchups in Galar are Miserable to fight) and 6 has Megas and stuff for sure, but I feel like Gen 7 is more "whole" with more mechanics and Pokemon that feel like they're the natural next step from 6, personally (I know not everyone agrees!)

4 to me feels really unique from being the only generation without preview with a lot of what makes modern Pokemon tick. The phys/spec split, Stealth Rocks, higher power moves.

This is not to say the generations I don't care much about in comparison are worse, or even necessarily less fun, but personally I think it just adds to the compendium of really cool official metagames. Besides for Terastilization and Dynamax, we haven't had any major mechanical difference added to the game since 2016.

If Generation 10 comes out in three years, it'll have been 9 years since a new mechanic has been introduced in the official Smogon format.

Items, Pokemon and Abilities are neat and all, but there's a reason why a lot of people prefer 7 to 8 (and vice versa mind you), or 4 to 3, or 5 to 6, or 6 to 7.

This is NOT an argument to not ban a mechanic from the policy, mind you. Competitiveness over fun, always. But I don't think fun should be neglected. We're here to play a game.
 
I think if anyone says Tera is balanced, you're living in altered state. Sure I understand the concern that people have with partial bans because it can end up being a sticky situation from altering cart mechanics. I even understand the concern of an outright ban 10 days of the game being released. But to say that Tera is balanced is not a careful statement, of all the 4 Pokémons that were banned (so far) they might have not been banned if Tera was banned outright. The ability to change your type on call when you see someone's about to use a super effective move so you can live the hit is the definition of not utilizing skill, you can have 6 Pokémon and give it a different type and make sure you're never hit by a super effective move (at least the 1 time you use it). How does that induce skill? (That's just a security blanket)

In my opinion Tera has killed off stall because of Tera Blast (not even regarding recovery move PP reduction) or the sheer power of some of the Paradox Pokémons. Terastalization makes the metagame unbalanced, it really makes it a difficult thing to prepare for and if you're not doing your due diligence when accounting for an adaptability boost or even a type change you'll lose the game even if you have the better team from a matchup perspective.

Okay fine don't ban Terastalization now (if it's too soon), lets live in a unbalanced metagame until we all get sick of it and complain about it more harshly in a couple of months. Anyone stating they want no action are always putting (for now) next to their statement because their argument is that it's too soon and it's a core mechanic to gen 9.
I mean, if it’s a problem we can just ban it. That’s like the whole point of a ban. This clearly isn’t as broken as dynamic was, and that got an entire month before it was banned. I definitely think we should allow the meta to stabilize with Tera before we do anything, because we have the power to remove it.
 

Shaymin Sky

Unban me from Ubers UU : (
is a Pre-Contributor
I think if anyone says Tera is balanced, you're living in altered state. Sure I understand the concern that people have with partial bans because it can end up being a sticky situation from altering cart mechanics. I even understand the concern of an outright ban 10 days of the game being released. But to say that Tera is balanced is not a careful statement, of all the 4 Pokémons that were banned (so far) they might have not been banned if Tera was banned outright. The ability to change your type on call when you see someone's about to use a super effective move so you can live the hit is the definition of not utilizing skill, you can have 6 Pokémon and give it a different type and make sure you're never hit by a super effective move (at least the 1 time you use it). How does that induce skill? (That's just a security blanket)

In my opinion Tera has killed off stall because of Tera Blast (not even regarding recovery move PP reduction) or the sheer power of some of the Paradox Pokémons. Terastalization makes the metagame unbalanced, it really makes it a difficult thing to prepare for and if you're not doing your due diligence when accounting for an adaptability boost or even a type change you'll lose the game even if you have the better team from a matchup perspective.

Okay fine don't ban Terastalization now (if it's too soon), lets live in a unbalanced metagame until we all get sick of it and complain about it more harshly in a couple of months. Anyone stating they want no action are always putting (for now) next to their statement because their argument is that it's too soon and it's a core mechanic to gen 9.
Tera didn't kill of stall, if anything stall is very good right now. It's topped ladder multiple times by different teams and different players, most notably pinkacross semi stall, highv0ltag3 hard stall and Pokemonisfun's hard stall, along with other stallers in 1700's-1800's. The only thing making stall not reach its full potential is solely annihilape, all other Pokémon tera boosted breakers including are very VERY manageable at the moment with stall, but ape 6-0s stall because there's largely 0 counter play to ape with the current stall options. This is non tera ape obviously when I refer tot he ape vs stall mu. That statement is objectively false.
 
I think if anyone says Tera is balanced, you're living in altered state. Sure I understand the concern that people have with partial bans because it can end up being a sticky situation from altering cart mechanics. I even understand the concern of an outright ban 10 days of the game being released. But to say that Tera is balanced is not a careful statement, of all the 4 Pokémons that were banned (so far) they might have not been banned if Tera was banned outright. The ability to change your type on call when you see someone's about to use a super effective move so you can live the hit is the definition of not utilizing skill, you can have 6 Pokémon and give it a different type and make sure you're never hit by a super effective move (at least the 1 time you use it). How does that induce skill? (That's just a security blanket)

In my opinion Tera has killed off stall because of Tera Blast (not even regarding recovery move PP reduction) or the sheer power of some of the Paradox Pokémons. Terastalization makes the metagame unbalanced, it really makes it a difficult thing to prepare for and if you're not doing your due diligence when accounting for an adaptability boost or even a type change you'll lose the game even if you have the better team from a matchup perspective.

Okay fine don't ban Terastalization now (if it's too soon), lets live in a unbalanced metagame until we all get sick of it and complain about it more harshly in a couple of months. Anyone stating they want no action are always putting (for now) next to their statement because their argument is that it's too soon and it's a core mechanic to gen 9.
>stuff like 135 Spatk, Spdef and Speed Ghost/Fairy type

>that can get a free stat boost with an item

>that was mostly stoppable because of defensive Terastilization

>in a generation where 80% of OU's staples are gone

>ghost type with decent attack and speed that can boost speed in sand has a 300 BP physical ghost move

>160 attack water type with flip turn and decent to good other stats

>pokemon with literally perfect coverage to every mono or dualtype in the game

truly, terastilization was at fault for these bans
 
Last edited:

Shaymin Sky

Unban me from Ubers UU : (
is a Pre-Contributor
Hi, I played this ladder a lot already around 600 times, and have gotten peak number 1 multiple times, most recent being 1950.

I generally think for now, tera is balanced and adds an extra layer of prediction and mindgames which can create a very fun and competitive metagame, and would vote on

at least not after one or two major tournaments...

So far, terastalization has been used by pokemon to either get a big offensive boost, defensive boost, utility or even as a bait. Example of each being:

Offensive Boost: Chien-Pao terrastalizing into dark type to get a harder hit on walls like dondozo or alomomola, Roaring Moon Terastalyzing into flying to beat mons like great tusk, Dragonite or Lucario terastalizing into normal for an explosive extreme speed

Defensive Boost: Skeledirge terastastalizing into a fairy type to get better defensive match up againt its weakness like dark and ghost, or Hatterene terastalizing into fire type to nullify its steel weakness and hit them back with stab mystical fire

Utility Boost: Garchomp Terastalizing into a ghost type to prevent rapid spin attempts from the donphans or cyclizar

Bait: Glimmora Terastalizing into Grass to beat Great Tusk lead or Chi-yu Terastalizing into flying and having the move taunt to shut down Ting-Lu

It adds a layer of complexity to every match where every turn you need to take into account "hmm will they terastalize this? if so, what will it be?" in a way that is balanced and fun. For example, if you have breloom and the opponent sends out kingambit, well you just predict the tera ghost and go for spore. Or if you earthquaked a glimmora on its spikes, do you spin now and clear hazard + kill? or do you earthquake predicting the tera ghost. You need to play it intellegently to get the most out of it, both in the builder and battle. Do you tera now to block the spin? or safe it for later to get a sweep?.

This new mechanic that gives the ability to change type on command, or adding an extra oomph to a hit adds so many ways to build a team or play using it or againts it. The outplay potentials of predicting with tera is massive with every turn having a chance of something suddenly changing types, and then you successfully predicting that. The potential in the builder is also great with having some pokemon to be a lure for something else, like garchomp baiting in chien-pao by terastalizing into fire type, resisting icicle crash and hitting back with fire blast.

Its also not impossible to predict, and you usually can tell what pokemon might tera into what based on context of teams. If you see lead glimmora or masquerain, its probably ghost. If its a tank like skeledirge and garganacl, you can safely assume a type that has a lot of resist like water or fairy, if you see kingambit going in vs your chien-pao or great tusk, its probably flying or ghost.

Terastalizing also doesn't just win you on the spot, its not like dynamax where when you click it, you just win with double hp + super boost, no, you only change type or gain an adaptability bonus on one type of move, there is also a cost to it. Yes getting stab E-Speed on Dragonite is powerful but you don't just win on the spot after you do that, you lose your ground immunity and resist to water, because of that you are now vulneable to pokemon like great tusk and body press corviknight which you beat before.

It's not inherently broken because there are a lot of counterplays to it that is reasonable, you dont have to specifically prep or predict for tera, but if you do you will be rewarded for it. In that same regard, Terastalization is also not inherently uncompetitive since using it properly and to its upmost potential requires positioning, playing around and general metagame knowledge. If you know whats popular right now, and what counters it, you have a greater advantage with building using tera.

Here are some replays i have/found where tera is used in ways to predict the opponent's move/attack/pokemon.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1714538341-sjr5ag6o464nhx3jryyt0ouqqwpjsdppw tera poison baxcalibur to beat hawlucha's close combat

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1723868095-0xmveu8qiie731lv9ygj4ads6hagyujpw Garchomp terastalizing into fire type againts my chien-pao predicting icicle crash and hitting it back hard

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1723887972-0hcvbh5ew75x7s5i4arxnmb2hye5kbepw luring my opponent's great tusk with lead glimmora and then nuking it with energy ball

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1720630700-mpwuirnzyev1hqinbj8q22h70uo8qvipw Garchomp in midgame terastalizing into ghost type to stop a rapid spin

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1723911485-pcvy5vqveqeuso4uf73x6tz2ok6g706pw terastalizing my glimmora to grass type to beat my opponent's ting-lu, only to then having my opponent terastalizing their ting-lu into a poison type to counter my grass glimmora and absorb its tspikes.

i do apologize for only having mostly Lure/Utility tera-showcase replays, since i have a habbit of not saving replays, but do assure it can be used defensively and offensively.

If the council wants to do someting as of now, they should try by suspect testing the broken pokemon first instead of terastalization as the metagame hasnt been out for too long and the potential of building and playing with it hasnt been fully realized yet as there have been no major tournaments for good players and builders to discover its true potential.

Terastalization after all, is the new generation's gimmick and banning it or testing it before a major tournament after showing that its not broken or uncompetitive doesn't seem fair.

TL;DR
Do not take actions againts tera, at least not before having one or two major tournaments as it is a complex new mechanic that brings a lot of nuance to the metagame that can be used in many different ways and adds an extra layer of prediction and mindgames both ingame and in the builder. It is not unbalanced because using it properly takes skill and it doesn't just outright win you the game most of the time. It is also not uncompetitive as it does not include major luck based elements.
Aside from not mentioning the issue that's plagued us for decades of "Pokémon being too matchup based" being solved outright through the introduction of terasteralization, pretty much all points advocating for tera are listed thoroughly and are exceedingly accurate.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
is a Top Tutoris a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
RMT Leader
>stuff like 135 Spatk, Spdef and Speed Ghost/Fairy type

>that can get a free stat boost with an item

>that was mostly playable because of defensive Terastilization

>in a generation where 80% of OU's staples are gone

>ghost type with decent attack and speed that can boost speed in sand has a 300 BP physical ghost move

>160 attack water type with flip turn and decent to good other stats

>pokemon with literally perfect coverage to every mono or dualtype in the game

truly, terastilization was at fault for these bans
Right who would've thought a broken mechanic makes broken Pokémon more broken. If you read carefully you can see I said might have not been banned which means it could've taken longer for a ban, etc. And you're saying the 4 Pokémon's that were banned never used Terastalization right? It just made them more balanced hm?
 

Shaymin Sky

Unban me from Ubers UU : (
is a Pre-Contributor
If I'm totally honest, at this point there isn't anywhere else to really take the thread. Pretty much every solution has been brought up (from the fringe to the easy to implement), and it feels like we're at a standstill where everything after this point is a formality.

Seeing the council's posts overall, I think it's kind of clear that the council has a plan in mind, and it's not hiding the fact that a lot of this is for some vague notion of "preventing backlash". A forum thread that 99% of the playerbase likely hasn't seen, that's immediately less important than the Policy Review thread- which has had its own cycle of the same opinions and takes, in two pages rather than now nineteen.

It is genuinely questionable what this thread aims to do now, let alone at the start. There will not be much common ground, frankly, because the vast array of opinions have not reached any conclusion, nor will they.

If none of us can rally around if the mechanic is even competitive or not, or even what type of players like what, then there will not be any true progress outside vague gestures of "we tried".

However, I'll just recap some things I feel I've noticed over the course of these discussions, through an old Magic the Gathering perspective of types of players in these sorts of games.

There is the -Johnny-, someone who plays looking for the best wins, rather than the most overall wins. This is that person who runs Cloyster, Kommo-o, DD Dragapult and Blaziken on the same team because he just wants that funny funny sweep. If he wins 3/10 games, but those 3 games were 6-0s, he goes home pretty happy.

There is the -Timmy-, someone who plays looking for the coolest mechanical wins, rather than the most overall wins. This is that person that runs Shedinja even in OU, and likes Baton Pass but doesn't really know how broken it is, loves the more niche mechanics like Magic Bounce way more, even in a generation like 8 where Defog is one of the easiest moves to fit on a team structure, nor out of some deep understanding of the game. If he goes 3/10 games, but those 3 games had his super niche strategy work out as he "perfectly" planned, he goes home pretty happy.

Then we have the -Spike-. This is the tournament player. He wins 9/10 games with a pretty meta team, and if he feels he should have won that 10th game, he goes home not feeling great. Honestly, some of the funniest and most iconic forum blow-ups from salt come from people who won almost all of their games, but failed to get the gold, and feel awful despite the immense skill displayed and social achievement, albeit understandably given the goal.

This framework somewhat accurately describes the three types of players who are attracted to things like competitive Pokemon. And I fail to see how Terastilization fails any of them, in any way.

As some people on the pro-ban side have mentioned, even, the best players are still winning. While that is always true in any meta to an extent, I have not seen any evidence provided that Terastilization has had any impact on this fact, nor have I seen any proof or evidence as to Terastilization creating upsets or lost games in ways that are somewhat normal to competitive Pokemon. Not having the right set for the job, failing to account for that one niche offensive threat in the teambuilder, not playing around the opponent's options correctly, and simply having bad luck.

All I've seen is vague buzzwords and notioning to this fact, with made-up examples or rarely linked replays that really just show a lack of practice or skill in the format.

There has been no proof that "Spike" is being neglected, worse off, or that his 9/10 games has become an 8, or 7, or especially not lower. There has been no definitive proof that teambuilding and playing around this mechanic with so much depth, even just 9 or so days in, has not become much easier and skilled. I also believe that playing Terastilization well could even increase the skill gap in a positive direction, but I have no proof on that notion.

On the other end, this is, yes, a highly attractive mechanic for the other two more casual groups as well.

Timmy has an endless array of potential choices to use, and play with, tinker, teambuild and create cool ideas and test them out. And I believe that Spikes can teambuild around a middleground that still wins against the fringes, as the ladder has always had. I'll never forget that time I lost to fucking Diggersby, because I didn't know it had Fire Punch, and I immediately improved my team... Diggersby tho?

Johnny has the potential to make his funny funny Youtube Smogon Salt Compilation Magikarp 6-0 sweep as usual, with Terastilization giving more potential for funny or pub stompy Pokemon. Again, I have seen no proof that Spikes are losing due to this, and while I have no direct evidence, I think there's good reason to believe that good teambuilding can patch these holes that the potential of Johhnys and Timmies may have.

In short: I see no evidence as to why Terastilization is so negatory besides vague notions of gamefeel, "I should have won that 10th game" that will always exist in Pokemon. And as, if I recall, the beginning of the thread states:

The onus is on the people committed to getting something restricted or banned to prove their claims. Less buzzwords, less "It's broken, we all know it's broken"; less fringe exaggerations ie. "It's more broken than Dynamax".

If there is no evidence yet? Then I have a solution: let's wait for actual statistics to arrive, tournaments to run, actual data in a less-new metagame.

Please.
I feel as though many tour players, and top ladder players/builders enjoy this mechanic more often than the casuals especially from my talks with players like storm zone, ox the fox, pinkacross, mimikyu stardust ect ect. Not to make stereotypes but for the sake of argument, I can see why someone who plays for fun, or doesn't aim to be "one of the best", or just plays off and on can get overwhelmed at the prospect of such a nuanced mechanic and finds it gimmicky, random, unpredictable, or too powerful.
 
I feel as though many tour players, and top ladder players/builders enjoy this mechanic more often than the casuals especially from my talks with players like storm zone, ox the fox, pinkacross, mimikyu stardust ect ect. Not to make stereotypes but for the sake of argument, I can see why someone who plays for fun, or doesn't aim to be "one of the best", or just plays off and on can get overwhelmed at the prospect of such a nuanced mechanic and finds it gimmicky, random, unpredictable, or too powerful.
This is very true. I guess if there is one type of player that is most shafted, it is unironically the "Johnnys", as any given team can be more prepared for the more niche of offensive Pokemon that can sweep an unprepared team.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
>stuff like 135 Spatk, Spdef and Speed Ghost/Fairy type

>that can get a free stat boost with an item

>that was mostly stoppable because of defensive Terastilization

>in a generation where 80% of OU's staples are gone

>ghost type with decent attack and speed that can boost speed in sand has a 300 BP physical ghost move

>160 attack water type with flip turn and decent to good other stats

>pokemon with literally perfect coverage to every mono or dualtype in the game

truly, terastilization was at fault for these bans
Yeah, this doesn’t work because Flutter Mane won dittos by using Tera Normal, Houndstone just got even more busted by adding an extra STAB on top of its STAB, Iron Bundle could use Tera Water or Ice to KO the few things that stopped it (barring Blissey, which still took ~40% from Tera Specs Hydro Pump), and Palafin was my go-to Tera user during its time because Tera Water Wave Crash dealt approximately Dracovish levels of damage. They were all broken independently of Tera, but Tera certainly helped them all.
 
Right who would've thought a broken mechanic makes broken Pokémon more broken. If you read carefully you can see I said might have not been banned which means it could've taken longer for a ban, etc. And you're saying the 4 Pokémon's that were banned never used Terastalization right? It just made them more balanced hm?
I dunno, tera felt like the least of all of these guys issues. I don't think its farfetched to say that if there was no tera, the quickbans of this gen would have been the exact same. I think universal mechanics shouldn't be considered broken because already broken mons can make use of them and become even worse, otherwise z crystals would have been banned much sooner. It's more about what it does to a seemingly balanced meta and if it just creates a cycle of constant abusers even without broken stuff.
 
Yeah, this doesn’t work because Flutter Mane won dittos by using Tera Normal, Houndstone just got even more busted by adding an extra STAB on top of its STAB, Iron Bundle could use Tera Water or Ice to KO the few things that stopped it (barring Blissey, which still took ~40% from Tera Specs Hydro Pump), and Palafin was my go-to Tera user during its time because Tera Water Wave Crash dealt approximately Dracovish levels of damage. They were all broken independently of Tera, but Tera certainly helped them all.
That's not really going against my point that Terastilization honestly made fighting them way more managable, and it's speculation on both sides of "Would it have been more broken or less broken without Terastilization"

While Terastilization rarely makes a Pokemon worse, opposing Terastilization IMO made for a much better equalizer and made fighting these Pokemon so much easier.

One of the teams I had when the meta was vert new was Steel Tera Garganacl which kinda owned Flutter Mane, or Normal Tera Gholdengo, and stuff like that.

Tera can make an offensive Pokemon better but I'd argue it benefits defensive play harder
 

Shaymin Sky

Unban me from Ubers UU : (
is a Pre-Contributor
Right who would've thought a broken mechanic makes broken Pokémon more broken. If you read carefully you can see I said might have not been banned which means it could've taken longer for a ban, etc. And you're saying the 4 Pokémon's that were banned never used Terastalization right? It just made them more balanced hm?
I am almost 100% certain that being able to use tera's defensively for flutter mane and palafin, is what made them stay so long in the first place. You technically aren't forced to use 1 or 2 pokemon on every team due to the baits/defensive utility tera gives you, allowing the broken pokemon to seem more manageable than they realistically are if we are talking base game. I don't know where this sentiment that tera made these pokemon "better" came from, when it's literally the opposite. Remove the possibility of defensive tera water's and you now can only use clodsire or lose to palafin??
 
I think terrastalization should not be banned, at least right now. I could be wrong and it could become extremely annoying to deal with long term.

Here is my perspective on what ou is: After the split with national dex in gen 8, I view ou as like the standard format in magic/hearthstone and nat dex as a classic or legacy format where a much wider variety of powerful stuff is allowed. There is a pretty limited pool of pokemon right now so I would assume that most people playing gen 9 ou right now are doing so for the seasonal aspect of it. It is fun to play in a new meta with new pokemon and new mechanics. I think terrastalization is a fun mechanic in general to use. I also think it is skill based - you might lose ONE match because of a wrong prediction(which is what pokemon literally is), but better players will make better decisions over time and win a lot more matches. I'm not a casual because I have played like 500 matches of gen 9 ou so far, but my interest dips in and out so I just play pokemon when something interesting is happening. The main responses I would expect is that fun and novelty literally don't matter and none of the things I mentioned match up with what the tier is. But for the vast majority of players, 6v6 ou has sort of became the dominant ladder so they will either play it or quit. So I think if terrastalization is banned so quickly it will probably turn a lot of people off of the format - or not. I don't actually know.
 
Last edited:
I am almost 100% certain that being able to use tera's defensively for flutter mane and palafin, is what made them stay so long in the first place. You technically aren't forced to use 1 or 2 pokemon on every team due to the baits/defensive utility tera gives you, allowing the broken pokemon to seem more manageable than they realistically are if we are talking base game. I don't know where this sentiment that tera made these pokemon "better" came from, when it's literally the opposite. Remove the possibility of defensive tera water's and you now can only use clodsire or lose to palafin??
Clodsire lost to bulk up Palafin anyway, for an example of how Palafin befitted from terra, Amoongus could be a good matchup against Palafin so they started to run terra steel, this came at a cost of losing out on the offensive befits of terra water but you now beat one of few the checks to Palafin.
 
I think terrastalization should not be banned, at least right now. I could be wrong and it could be become extremely annoying to deal with long term.

Here is my perspective on what ou is: After the split with national dex in gen 7, I view ou as like the standard format in magic/hearthstone and nat dex as a classic or legacy format where a much wider variety of powerful stuff is allowed. There is a pretty limited pool of pokemon right now so I would assume that most people playing gen 9 ou right now are doing so for the seasonal aspect of it. It is fun to play in a new meta with new pokemon and new mechanics. I think terrastalization is a fun mechanic in general to use. I also think it is skill based - you might lose ONE match because of a wrong prediction(which is what pokemon literally is), but better players will make better decisions over time and win a lot more matches. I'm not a casual because I have played like 500 matches of gen 9 ou so far, but my interest dips in and out so I just play pokemon when something interesting is happening. The main responses I would expect is that fun and novelty literally don't matter and none of the things I mentioned match up with what the tier is. But for the vast majority of players, 6v6 ou has sort of became the dominant ladder so they will either play it or quit. So I think if terrastalization is banned so quickly it will probably turn a lot of people off of the format - or not. I don't actually know.
I agree with your final point. I think banning tera will massively turn off the playerbase from OU. Tera is more balanced than dynamax in my opinion, and dynamax existed for longer (I believe) at the start of the generation. Dynamax was an insta win button a lot of the time, 2x HP and super powerful moves that either had high BP with no drawback, or high BP with massive pluses (I'm looking at you Max Airstream). I really hope that tera isn't banned until more time has elapsed and we have gotten used to the new gen, even maybe until pokemon home comes out. It's a fun, novel mechanic and I think it adds a lot to pokemon battling, which it sorely needed come the end of gen 8.
 

Shaymin Sky

Unban me from Ubers UU : (
is a Pre-Contributor
Clodsire lost to bulk up Palafin anyway, for an example of how Palafin befitted from terra, Amoongus could be a good matchup against Palafin so they started to run terra steel, this came at a cost of losing out on the offensive befits of terra water but you now beat one of few the checks to Palafin.
They didn't run tera steel for amoonguss, they ran tera water. Instead they ran taunt for amoonguss spores and pex haze, the tera water boost it used tbh was irrelevant anyways +1 at 160 base attack is ripping through anything and ur bulky enough to take any hit if it doesn't ohko anyways.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top