Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Yeah, I have no problem saying that AV Azumarill is far from an optimal set. The fact that people are using it to check Chi-Yu says a lot more about Chi-Yu than it does about Azumarill.
Yeah, you're absolutely right. I do think this thing is nuts and should be banned to Ubers. Tyranitar and Assault vest Ting-Lu are the only somewhat safe switch-ins assuming that Chi-Yu doesn't Tera into a type that beats them. This thing is really oppressive for a lot of teams because it usually gets a free kill upon switching in unless you use the bulkiest of walls, or your entire team is faster than Chi-Yu.
 
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1. Rank the above in terms of how much you prefer the above playstyles and how effective/good they are in your opinion (1 being the best and 4 being the worst)
2. What Pokemon do you think are staples for each playstyle, or are very good for each specific playstyle?
3. What are some fun pokemon you like for each playstyle, or for some playstyles
4. Most overrated Pokemon in your opinion?
5. Most underrated Pokemon in your opinion?
6. Favorite new Generation 9 pokemon to use?
7. Favorite returning Pokemon from Gens 1-8 to use?
8. Have you tried out any of the new items? If so, are there any you like or any that are making a solid impact in OU?
9. On a scale of 1-10, how much are you enjoying SV OU, with 1 being the least and 10 being the most?
10. On a scale of 1-10, how competitive do you find SV OU, with 1 being the least competitive and 10 being the most competitive?
1. Balance/BO/HO >>> Stall
I think BO/Balance/HO are all really close. The line between BO and HO has blurred so much this generation as all of the Paradox Pokemon have great typings and at least one decent defensive stat. Other prominent Pokemon, both old and new, also seem to fit on both (think Garchomp or Kingambit). I think Stall has taken a hit thanks to the bevy of new offensive threats, the increased distribution of hazards, and Terastallization.

2. BO - Garchomp (great speed tier, excellent bulk and offenses, great typing, access to SR/Spikes)
Balance - Corviknight (fantastic bulk and typing with relatively little hazard weakness, Defog/U-Turn)
HO - Dragapult (the fastest unboosted Pokemon, huge amount of set variety and an excellent movepool to support it)
Stall - Dondozo (bananas bulk, great defensive typing which is bolstered by Tera, Unaware)

3. My teams feel pretty run of the mill, but one mon that I have liked on HO is Hydreigon, especially as a lead. It gets SR/Taunt/Twave, all of which are fantastic for a lead Pokemon, and since its attacking move (Dark Pulse/Earth Power) will be special, its not giving anything to Glimmora. Great Tusk usage has increased a lot though, which is very troubling for Hydreigon. I really wish this thing still got Roost, because a fast bulky set could be a great answer for Gholdengo.

4. This feels absolutely wild to say, but Gholdengo. I'm in a really weird spot with this little guy. He has absolutely had an effect on the metagme, and remains a staple on a lot of hazard-centric builds. However, the metagame has seriously adapted to him with rises in usage for Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao, Great Tusk, Garchomp, and others. Gholdengo can still do what it needs to with these threats around, but its position is a lot more perilous. (Despite this, I still think this Pokemon will eventually be suspect-worthy.)

5. This also feels wild to say, but Chi-Yu. People have for sure acknowledged its power, but this is a special attacking Pokemon that even Blissey can't switch into ON A NEUTRAL HIT AT FULL. Sure, it has to be Specs Tera Fire with Overheat, and the 2HKO is a roll (does 94% minimum), but this calc is still is mind-boggling to me.

6. Gotta be Chi-Yu or Iron Valiant. Chi-Yu is just so incredibly powerful (see 5) and BE Iron Valiant is really fun as a cleaner.

7. Garchomp. I have been running a fast bulky Garchomp with SD + Tera Fire + Terablast. It dismantles Corviknight balance while allowing Garchomp to take hits from the likes of Chien-Pao and Iron Valiant.

8. Is Booster Energy an instrument?

9. I'd give it a 9. GF released so many insanely new strong Pokemon that are also insanely fun to abuse. The metagame is pretty offensive, allowing the dopamine receptors in my brain to fire off the maximum number of times per hour.

10. A 6 here with Tera being my biggest issue. Offensive metas can also be more match-up oriented, so I'd probably still only give an 8 if Tera were removed.
 

Perish Song

flaunt
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Here is a comprehensive list of things that don’t get 2HKO’d by fully invested Specs Chi-Yu in sun (with the moveset Overheat/Fire Blast/Flamethrower/Dark Pulse) if it has Tera Fire. (Note that this list doesn’t take defensive Terastallization into account):
  • Tyranitar, by merit of bringing out sand instead
  • Fully invested Coalossal
  • Dachsbun with some Sp. Def investment
  • Flash Fire Houndoom with some Sp. Def investment
  • AV Mimikyu with heavy Sp. Def investment
  • That’s it
For the record, here are things that avoid a 2HKO only if Chi-Yu doesn’t Tera:
  • Thick Fat Azumarill
  • Blissey with some Sp. Def investment
  • Fully invested Dondozo with Leftovers
  • Fully invested Dragalge with Leftovers
  • Fully invested Multiscale Dragonite
  • Fully invested Garganacl with Leftovers
  • Fully invested Gastrodon with Leftovers
  • AV Goodra
  • AV Thick Fat Hariyama
  • Fully invested Thick Fat Oinkologne-F
  • Fully invested Roaring Moon
  • Fully invested AV Paldean Tauros (Fire or Water)
  • Fully invested AV Ting-Lu
  • Vaporeon with Sp. Def investment
And now, the list of all of these sets that are at least somewhat viable in OU:
  • Tyranitar
  • Dondozo
  • Garganacl
  • Gastrodon
  • Possibly Sp. Def Blissey
  • Maybe AV Ting-Lu
  • uhhhhhh
  • oh no
This list is the reason why I started running Ruination on Chi-Yu. While its not a solution its ultimately a good progress maker vs some of its checks. ( makes progress vs all if you can drain recovery pps lol ) .

Psychic is a 4th move on Chi Yu most of time but really it doesnt hit much so Ruination imo is a better filler
 
I think Scizor is really good and fun despite losing a lot of options in the generation shift. Losing Roost and Defog basically kills defensive Sciz, but that's okay: Sciz happens to be quite well-positioned with a lot of its defensive answers being exploitable or easy to wear down.

I think the best-positioned set at the moment looks something like this:


Scizor @ Life Orb / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat / Thief
- Quick Attack / Thief / U-Turn
Yeah. LO Scizor was also the first thing that crossed my mind when Spikes HO started popping off. It's a very classic set for this archetype, and the popularity of a lot of priority-weak Pokemon in the metagame makes this set almost a "must-run" for Spikes HO.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
This list is the reason why I started running Ruination on Chi-Yu. While its not a solution its ultimately a good progress maker vs some of its checks. ( makes progress vs all if you can drain recovery pps lol ) .

Psychic is a 4th move on Chi Yu most of time but really it doesnt hit much so Ruination imo is a better filler
Keep in mind that all of those calcs assume hazards aren’t up. If they are, Dondozo, Garganacl and Gastrodon also go down to it (also if they’re running something besides Lefties).

My point is, Chi-Yu needs to go.
 
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Overheat OHKOs a lot without as much risk as Fire Blast, but Fire Blast is necessary for a lot of the bulkier 2HKOs because of Overheat’s Sp. Atk drop and Flamethrower is needed to have an accurate attack. Also, everything that can survive this set (and is worth running) takes more from Dark Pulse than Psychic. The only things that Psychic does more on are Dragalge, Hariyama, Dachsbun, AV Paldean Tauros, and Thick Fat Azumarill, none of which are going to ever be seriously played in OU, and you give up either the reliability of Flamethrower, the raw power of Overheat, or the 2HKO capability of Fire Blast.

My point is, Chi-Yu is basically Dracovish but on fire. Give it proper weather support and it 2HKOs damn near the entire Pokédex, including the things that are supposed to beat it, and its only answers are “just change the weather lmao” or trashmons.
While I whole-heartedly agree Chi-Yu needs to go, I feel Dracovish is a bit of an extreme comparison.
  • Hazards can wear it out over time (non hdb)
  • Priority moves / outspeeding combined with its pitiful bulk can kill it
  • BAXCALIBUR
  • Checks previously mentioned (ttar, dondozo)
Thermal Exchange Baxcalibur can bait a Fire-type move, switch in, get the +1 atk, and then kill.

DEFENSIVE CALCS:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 99-117 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 21.1% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 60-72 (27 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 45-54 (20.2 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 84-99 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 67-81 (30.1 - 36.4%) -- 51.5% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 132-156 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin in Sun: 198-234 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (!!)



OFFENSIVE CALCS:
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 328-387 (252.3 - 297.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 272-322 (209.2 - 247.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 73-86 (56.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 116-137 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 54-65 (41.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Please tell me if I'm wrong on any of this, I am still a relatively new player.
 
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While I whole-heartedly agree Chi-Yu needs to go, I feel Dracovish is a bit of an extreme comparison.
  • Hazards can wear it out over time (non hdb)
  • Priority moves / outspeeding combined with its pitiful bulk can kill it
  • BAXCALIBUR
  • Checks previously mentioned (ttar, dondozo)
Thermal Exchange Baxcalibur can bait a Fire-type move, switch in, get the +1 atk, and then kill.

DEFENSIVE CALCS:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 99-117 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 21.1% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 60-72 (27 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 45-54 (20.2 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 84-99 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 67-81 (30.1 - 36.4%) -- 51.5% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 132-156 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin in Sun: 198-234 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (!!)



OFFENSIVE CALCS:
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 328-387 (252.3 - 297.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 272-322 (209.2 - 247.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 73-86 (56.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 116-137 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 54-65 (41.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Please tell me if I'm wrong on any of this, I am still a relatively new player.
Baxcalibur isn't a top used Mon though. Even if it was a good check to Chi-Yu, it doesn't make Chi-Yu more manageable.

Not saying Chi-Yu should be banned, there could be a suspect test in future
 
While I whole-heartedly agree Chi-Yu needs to go, I feel Dracovish is a bit of an extreme comparison.
  • Hazards can wear it out over time (non hdb)
  • Priority moves / outspeeding combined with its pitiful bulk can kill it
  • BAXCALIBUR
  • Checks previously mentioned (ttar, dondozo)
Thermal Exchange Baxcalibur can bait a Fire-type move, switch in, get the +1 atk, and then kill.

DEFENSIVE CALCS:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 99-117 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 21.1% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 60-72 (27 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 45-54 (20.2 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 84-99 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 67-81 (30.1 - 36.4%) -- 51.5% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 132-156 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin in Sun: 198-234 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (!!)



OFFENSIVE CALCS:
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 328-387 (252.3 - 297.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 272-322 (209.2 - 247.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 73-86 (56.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 116-137 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 54-65 (41.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Please tell me if I'm wrong on any of this, I am still a relatively new player.
Chi-yu is faster than Baxcalibur, so, even though Baxcalibur can tank 1 hit, it can't switch-in, because Chi-yu would outspedd the next turn and finish it off.
Btw, what is the website you are using for the calc that includes the Beads of Ruin effect?

I just started using Chi-yu and I've got to say that I'm finding its bulk not as bad as I originally thought. Its pretty solid on the special defence side, and the physDef is enough that you probably need some investment to net the KO (meaning a defensive mons physical neutral STAB isn't really strong enough, you need investment or SE coverage.

The irony of the unaware mons is that because they are unaware, it makes the Overheat drop not matter. Of course, if you sack, then you can net yourself a setup opportunity, but its still fantastic at wall breaking.

Setting up hazards does wear it down in to range quick, but something I've noticed is using a non-rock weak Tera-type. I've had many games where my game plan was to use rocks to chip it into range. This helps keep Chi-yu around longer, and is a nice added bonus to sets like Tera-fairy.
 
Chi-yu is faster than Baxcalibur, so, even though Baxcalibur can tank 1 hit, it can't switch-in, because Chi-yu would outspedd the next turn and finish it off.
Btw, what is the website you are using for the calc that includes the Beads of Ruin effect?

I just started using Chi-yu and I've got to say that I'm finding its bulk not as bad as I originally thought. Its pretty solid on the special defence side, and the physDef is enough that you probably need some investment to net the KO (meaning a defensive mons physical neutral STAB isn't really strong enough, you need investment or SE coverage.

The irony of the unaware mons is that because they are unaware, it makes the Overheat drop not matter. Of course, if you sack, then you can net yourself a setup opportunity, but its still fantastic at wall breaking.

Setting up hazards does wear it down in to range quick, but something I've noticed is using a non-rock weak Tera-type. I've had many games where my game plan was to use rocks to chip it into range. This helps keep Chi-yu around longer, and is a nice added bonus to sets like Tera-fairy.
It is the PokeSports calculator.
Also if you see the defensive calcs section, bax can tank pretty much anything from chi-yu (even tera fire in sun) and ko back
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
Oh yeah, I forgot about Chansey. As did the rest of the playerbase, it seems. Eviolite Chansey eats Chi-Yu for breakfast no matter how much Tera and Specs and Sun and Beads are going on.
Also if you see the defensive calcs section, bax can tank pretty much anything from chi-yu (even tera fire in sun) and ko back
I think we have radically different definitions of the word “tank” if you believe getting OHKO’d over a third of the time is tanking a hit. Even with your calcs, Baxcalibur couldn’t switch in on Specs Chi-Yu because it has to eat two hits—the hit it takes on switch-in, and the next turn where it gets outsped.

Also, where are you getting those calcs from? How do you even have Flamethrower dealing a max of 36.4%? Showdown’s official damage calculator gives Flamethrower under the same conditions a minimum of 64.9%. I think whatever site you used doesn’t have things coded quite right yet.
 
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What are people's opinions on the Covert Cloak right now? There's a lot of stat drop & flinch moves going around right now, but is it ever worth taking over e.g. lefties?
 
The best user of it did not receive enough votes to get banned either time and we are still less than two weeks into the generation.
Personally I get why people are wanting Cylcizar gone instead of shed tail, but shed tail on its own to me is uncompetitive for the same reasons as baton pass, sure orthworm cannot get a shed tail off as easily, but it is somewhat bulky and it has earth eater so bringing it in on a ground type clicking eq to get a shed tail off isn't a problem, and oftentimes all you need is one free substitute pivot to outright win a game with a setup sweeper like Great Tusk/Iron Valiant/Quaquaval etc; To me shed tail is a problem in the same vein as baton pass, as both make the game uncompetitive for similar reasons and that is why I hope that we get a shed tail suspect instead, because a cyclizar ban would not solve shed tail being an uncompetitive move at its very core.
 
I think people are forgetting that in the case of Maushold, Protective Pads exist. You can use those to prevent Helmet Corv from shredding it.


:sv/maushold:
Maushold-Four @ Protective Pads
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tidy Up
- Population Bomb
- Aerial Ace
- Bite
 
I think people are forgetting that in the case of Maushold, Protective Pads exist. You can use those to prevent Helmet Corv from shredding it.


:sv/maushold:
Maushold-Four @ Protective Pads
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tidy Up
- Population Bomb
- Aerial Ace
- Bite
I tried maushold and half the time when it got 10 hits with wide lens it just missed out on a lot of important kos against bulkier mons and even some offensive ones. Also running protective pads isn't worth it when you can lower the chance of missing population bomb to 1% with wide lens. I really don't think maushold is that good but I guess I could see a niche use for it in the right circumstances.
 
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