Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]

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Dondozo and Skeledirge both run boosting moves which leave them capable of doing insane damage. I don't think you have ever actually seen what it is they do. Do you think Gen 2 Curselax is passive as well?
And if we're talking defensive teams, as I've stated I think twice now? Unaware does not care whatsoever about +1 Dnite. Iron Hands and Iron Valiant are examples of what OFFENSIVE teams can do to stop it. You don't rely on either of those to stop a sweeper on a defensive team unless your team is so miserably bad you deserve to lose anyway.

Mate you need to work on your reading comprehension. I said defensive teams rely on passive answers to Dragonite. You then said offensive Pokemon weren't passive and listed 4 Pokemon which can be on defensive teams. Two of which don't do shit to Dragonite. Dragonite behind a sub eats both of those alive. And yes I know that at +6 those Pokemon hit hard. But torch song is not special belly drum. Your opponent is not required to let you get to +6. You're actually either incapable of parsing text properly or arguing in such bad faith that either way I'm not gonna bother engaging anymore.

Dondozo and Skeledirge will 6-0 you if you leave Dragonite in on them... hardly passive lol

I swear you all can't read. Obviously if you leave in Dragonite on those Pokemon you will lose. I said they let other things in. That is the issue.
 
Mate you need to work on your reading comprehension. I said defensive teams rely on passive answers to Dragonite. You then said offensive Pokemon weren't passive and listed 4 Pokemon which can be on defensive teams. Two of which don't do shit to Dragonite. Dragonite behind a sub eats both of those alive. And yes I know that at +6 those Pokemon hit hard. But torch song is not special belly drum. Your opponent is not required to let you get to +6. You're actually either incapable of parsing text properly or arguing in such bad faith that either way I'm not gonna bother engaging anymore.



I swear you all can't read. Obviously if you leave in Dragonite on those Pokemon you will lose. I said they let other things in. That is the issue.

Hang on, let me get exactly what I said.

Let's look at some of the things able to stop Dragonite. A defensive team can use any Unaware mon, notably Dondozo (does not need to tera to hard wall + threaten a Curse sweep in return) or Skeledirge
An offensive team can pack something capable of withstanding a single hit from Dragonite after popping Multiscale and easily threaten an OHKO. Examples are Iron Hands (withstands a +1 EQ with ease, can be EV'd/tera'd to either take a +2 or just be immune) or Iron Valiant (again, takes +1 ES or EQ, can tera Ghost to be immune to it).
Iron Valiant, Iron Hands, Dondozo, and Skeledirge are certainly not generally passive.

You sure you want to play the reading comprehension card here?
 
Mate you need to work on your reading comprehension. I said defensive teams rely on passive answers to Dragonite. You then said offensive Pokemon weren't passive and listed 4 Pokemon which can be on defensive teams. Two of which don't do shit to Dragonite. Dragonite behind a sub eats both of those alive. And yes I know that at +6 those Pokemon hit hard. But torch song is not special belly drum. Your opponent is not required to let you get to +6. You're actually either incapable of parsing text properly or arguing in such bad faith that either way I'm not gonna bother engaging anymore.



I swear you all can't read. Obviously if you leave in Dragonite on those Pokemon you will lose. I said they let other things in. That is the issue.
Dondozo and skeledirge are both some of the best defensive Pokémon in the tier
 
Aegislash wasn't banned for 50/50s, it was banned because it single handedly decided what could be OU or not since it hard stopped a shit ton of pokemon, forced unconventional moves (EQ m-pinsir is one example), and blanket stopped some of the stronger threats like m-mawile. It had multiple sets that all dictated what it beats and figuring those out could result in losing a mon you drafted to beat it. I know for damn sure I didn't ladder during that aegislash suspect because of 50/50s and if that's what anyone during that time period voted on it for I want a recount.

50/50s never was or will be a good reason something is banned. Sucker punch is a 50/50, switch prediction is a 50/50, king's shield if anything affected a lot less since it only was 50/50 in instances of contact moves and useless to aegislash vs. status moves.

Lets not get an old ban twisted just to get Tera more twisted, in tera's defense it is far from a 50/50, if a mon can run 5 different teras then its randomness makes it harder to check but rn its less of a 50/50 and more easy to predict what type they go with... the brokenness is from how much stronger they get and their counter swaps when they tera, which is why i don't believe in bandaid solutions for it and an outright ban because I rarely feel wrong in guessing the type they go but it doesn't change what I can do about it.
 
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“Defensive Pokémon are passive and can’t beat dragonite”
“Yeah but dodonzo and skeledirge are defensive Pokémon that aren’t passive and can beat dragonite”
“They’re not passive mons so that doesn’t support my argument >:(“

Literally everything you "quote" here is wrong. I didn't say they don't beat Dragonite. I said defensive answers to Dragonite let in other threats. You saying they're good on defence, which is really suffering right now, doesn't change anything about that, and me saying defence sucks doesn't have anything to do with whether or not Skeliderge and dondozo are passive. Skeliderge let's in Chi Yu, arguably the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier, in for completely free. Dondozo similarly lets in almost anything, because it can't do anything to Dragonite except curse on it. And it's SpD is so terrible that more or less any special attacker cleanly beats it even with a curse under its belt.
 
Dondozo and Skeledirge will 6-0 you if you leave Dragonite in on them... hardly passive lol
well gee if these two specific pokemon check something busted then what's the problem!? You know avalugg did pretty good vs zygarde 50% why did we need to ban zygarde let's just all use avalugg! Except for the fact that even with no attack investment earthquake 3hkos skeledirge... awkward! Especially with reduces slack off pp, this gets dicey fast.

0+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 146-174 (41.8 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yes, tera fairy will stop this onslaught, but using tera to check tera feels to me along the lines of "broken checks broken", which nobody wants a meta game to devolve into. Just because SOME pokemon can check something doesn't make it balanced. The difference between the avalugg comparison is that skeledirge and dondozo are actually good on their own but you get my point.
With tera, it's like the entire game is a 50/50 because they may just tera into something you didn't expect.

Let's say you're facing down gholdengo with a mon with earthquake. In a non tera meta, the question is "do I hit earthquake or do I try and read the ground resist/immunity coming in and try to smack that hard instead?" Usually you'd just hit eq in case the opponent tries to be cute and stay in predicting your predict. In any case, you've positioned yourself to be in a good spot here. Tera throws a lot of wrenches into the mix. What if it's tera flying and you just lose. Or maybe you try to thunderbolt dondozo but it uses tera grass or tera steel or whatever the hell and now you can't kill it anymore. It's not something you can really prepare for, and it's not something that you can read like a switch in. You're not gonna tell me that I should start throwing resisted hits at a pokemon because I think it might tera into something. You're not gonna go "erm... why didn't you just use close combat on dragonite you knew it was gonna tera normal lol!!!"
Often times the way you beat tera is to just use your own tera in retaliation. Unless I'm insane. It's not even a true 50/50 it's like a 20/80. Tera's swing factor is way stronger than z moves, because at least you could usually infer what mon had a z-move (knock off was a dead givaway, and heatran was probably not holding a choice item, etc). While z-moves certainly had a swing factor (bloom doom on fire types comes to mind), you didn't just get to continue to beat bulky waters like tera grass lets you.

Also the comparison to low accuracy moves doesn't work. Since every pokemon on a team can use tera, you never know for sure when you're gambling. Sure, you might have an inkling that something will terastelize, but who know when that's gonna happen, since it could be anyone pulling that shit. And even if it's a pokemon that looks to be a more dedicated tera user like roaring moon, there's like 3 different types it can turn into that have different checks and counters.
If I click focus blast, that's between me and god. I put that on my pokemon knowing I would miss it more often than not. Terastelization turns match ups into a total crapshoot because the opponent might just say "fuck you I win now".

Sorry if this is totally incoherent I'm not great at writing my thoughts down.
 
It's not a stretch to think that the fairly bulky, especially with Multiscale up, 134 Atk pseudo spamming a +2 priority attack that has 80BP with no drawbacks and not factoring STAB might be a little over the top. :mehowth:

Sometimes, mons get buffs that make them a little too hard to handle normally. It's ok. Just ban them. Things work out after that.

I wouldn't throw out the baby with the baby water because of a bunch of mons in a gen that's already dealing with ridiculous power creep as is.
 

Curious as to what else you had on Chien-Pao? I'm not sure I would say this is a 50-50 per se (although I do think Tera won the game for him / her despite probably being outplayed), as I think an obvious tera type on Dragapult would be something that resists Dark, given how good dark / ghost moves are. I think using an Ice move might've been the play.

So this is a bit more on topic, as someone who has recently gotten back into competetive after many years (the last time I really played was Gen 5 lol), I do feel that the problem with Tera tends to be with the pokemon using it, not necessarily Tera itself. The real issue is there are an abundance of terrific abusers of the mechanic, and I'm not sure outright banning 20+ user to Ubers is the right path given the reduced pool.
 
well gee if these two specific pokemon check something busted then what's the problem!? You know avalugg did pretty good vs zygarde 50% why did we need to ban zygarde let's just all use avalugg! Except for the fact that even with no attack investment earthquake 3hkos skeledirge... awkward! Especially with reduces slack off pp, this gets dicey fast.

0+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 146-174 (41.8 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yes, tera fairy will stop this onslaught, but using tera to check tera feels to me along the lines of "broken checks broken", which nobody wants a meta game to devolve into. Just because SOME pokemon can check something doesn't make it balanced. The difference between the avalugg comparison is that skeledirge and dondozo are actually good on their own but you get my point.

I definitely agree that it's regrettable you have to use the same few Pokemon every match to stop the offensive threats of the tier, but SV OU is pretty tiny, and non-tera counters do exist. We have not even 40 Pokemon in OU and most of the UU ones aren't exactly great. Most teams of any playstyle look pretty much the same. The difference is, Avalugg on every single team was unreasonable, yet every single defensive team is running at least one Unaware pokemon, and those Unawares are genuinely good even outside their niches in countering setup sweepers. Hell, a lot run two.
DD/ES Nite does always run 252 attack and adamant though, or at least should always.
With regards to something like a Gholdengo going tera flying though, while it is possible, doing so directly nerfs it alongside cutting off your tera options for the rest of the game. You took an immediate single-turn benefit but at a significant future cost. I think it's overall a nice dynamic in a situation like that, but even if it were to KO whatever it is you had out, you opponent is worse off for the exchange as well. It's almost like explosion, and you can then take advantage of it yourself later.
With regards to the Dondozo/Gholdengo example specifically though, it's already possible that you using Thunderbolt on it can be taken advantage of. Plenty of teams could just switch into anything else capable of absorbing a thunderbolt, and even Dondozo were to actually switch into grass, it's not like a Liquidation (or even an EQ) would OHKO Gholdengo in return, and you can then just switch out to whatever other mon you have to take on a now much more easily able to be taken advantage of Dondozo. Hell, you just made the opponent blow their tera and all they got in return was a chunk of HP off Gholdengo. That doesn't sound like a loss at all.
I've just yet to see it be so insanely unpredictable or momentus (outside something like HO vs HO which has historically been subject to an insane amount of RNG and guesswork because a game lasts for 10 turns anyway) that an entire game is decided based on one out-of-nowhere tera or lack thereof. The metagame really needs more time to develop before anything should be taken with regards to it.

Are you serious at this point lmfao



Terra doesn't barely impact, it decides games lol

Just say you want a meta with much more 50/50's than ever before.
Hot take but to each their own I guess.

If it happens every game just play one and then save the replay and show it. You already tried doing that once and it turns out you just had poor team comp and sacrificed your Dragapult counter.
Although actually thinking about it - even if you could tera two mons, SV OU would STILL have less guessing/luck than RBY OU. It still wouldn't be more than ever before.
 
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It's not a stretch to think that the fairly bulky, especially with Multiscale up, 134 Atk pseudo spamming a +2 priority attack that has 80BP with no drawbacks and not factoring STAB might be a little over the top. :mehowth:



Sometimes, mons get buffs that make them a little too hard to handle normally. It's ok. Just ban them. Things work out after that.



I wouldn't throw out the baby with the baby water because of a bunch of mons in a gen that's already dealing with ridiculous power creep as is.

I don't understand how people still think like this. We've gone through this so many times. If a single factor is causing a huge number of Pokemon to be considered to be banned, just get rid of that single factor.

Genuine question, why didn't you Ice Spinner against the Dragapult? Were you scared of tera fire or smth?

Tera ghost, the more common option, lives and then the same thing happens from there. Given how common tera ghost dragapult is, I'd say crunch was the best options.
 
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It's not a stretch to think that the fairly bulky, especially with Multiscale up, 134 Atk pseudo spamming a +2 priority attack that has 80BP with no drawbacks and not factoring STAB might be a little over the top. :mehowth:

Sometimes, mons get buffs that make them a little too hard to handle normally. It's ok. Just ban them. Things work out after that.

I wouldn't throw out the baby with the baby water because of a bunch of mons in a gen that's already dealing with ridiculous power creep as is.
First of all, hello people of the thread ive been lurking for a while.

Second, the proper response to this, which fails to adress a couple of issues:
Dragonite and extreme speed have existed over a decade now and the impact dragonite has had on that decade reaches from good in gen 5, lol in gen 6, lmao in gen 7, and i dont know about his impact in gen 8 because i didint play it.
but heres the kicker: he got nerfed from the jump to gen 8 to gen 9 in its moveset (no more heal bell, no more dual wingbeat) yet now its suddenly a top tier pick? i think this speaks more about how the generational gimmick impacts the tier rather than dragonite itself because he has been consistenly nerfed with the generations ( rocks already existing in gen 5, fairies existing in gen 6, losing the one time flying type move in gen 8, losing it again in gen 9).
and nite is just one of the many examples you can make about a x mon suddenly getting way better than it might be because of the gimmick, with that in mind, should something get banned, what it should be, the mon that gets consistently nerfed with each rolling generation for the sake of keeping the generational gimmick, or the generational gimmick that pushes the pokemon to incredibly ridiculous heights? id love to keep the mechanic in some capacity but things like this make me really doubt if its even a good idea to begin with.
 
Tera ghost, the more common option, lives and then the same thing happens from there. Given how common tera ghost dragapult is, I'd say crunch was the best options.
Factually incorrect, unless for some reason he was not carrying any priority move. It actually had boots so it was able to change moves and Ice Spinner > Sucker Punch/Ice Shard would KO.
The only way Dragapult would have won is if they got into a meme off where Dragapult predicts every single sucker punch and the move runs out of PP.
 
which fails to adress a couple of issues
Sometimes, mons get buffs that make them a little too hard to handle normally. It's ok. Just ban them. Things work out after that.

I wouldn't throw out the baby with the baby water because of a bunch of mons in a gen that's already dealing with ridiculous power creep as is.
I didn't fail to address this issue. Terastal is what pushes DNite to that power level.

I just said I don't give a fuck. If DNite gotta go so Tera can stay, well...
Fuck Outta Here.jpg
 
Hell. I don't think either of the last two bans would have necessarily gone through without tera.

Nah, bundle and pala were fucking insane, tera was just the stem on the cherry on top of that cake. Whatever you think of tera, pretty much every ban we've gotten until now would have happened regardless. It's more about future bans (dnite, roaring moon (?), cyclizar or shedtail or whatever they decide to ban lol) that are more reliant on tera
 
Nah, bundle and pala were fucking insane, tera was just the stem on the cherry on top of that cake. Whatever you think of tera, pretty much every ban we've gotten until now would have happened regardless. It's more about future bans (dnite, roaring moon (?), cyclizar or shedtail or whatever they decide to ban lol) that are more reliant on tera

Bundle was only barely banned and the banned post cited tera circumventing counterplay as part of the decision for both mons. I'm not saying they'd necessarily dodge it but it's definitely a possibility.
 
Except it's not just Dragonite. There's currently 5 or so Pokemon that are pushed into bandworthy by Terra. Hell. I don't think either of the last two bans would have necessarily gone through without tera.
I know. I'd argue some of them would go anyway. Ape is bananas for example.

As for the bans that already went through... There's a reason they got quickbanned instead of going through the process to begin with. Palafin was obviously pretty strong and so was Iron Bundle.

Defensive Tera is actually holding a lot of things together and y'all don't wanna talk about it because it doesn't benefit your narrative. Broken beats broken my foot, if I can click Tera Ghost on a DNite and nail it with CC to eliminate that threat, you can bet I'm doing it. It's a cold world, bundle up.

I personally believe Tera makes things more competitive by allowing players to skillfully predict a situation and turn the tables. There are definitely drawbacks to it, like for example, Water Ape suddenly needing to worry about Electric-types that wouldn't bother it otherwise.

If we gotta crack some eggs to make this omelet... You know my stance.
 
Defensive Tera is actually holding a lot of things together and y'all don't wanna talk about it because it doesn't benefit your narrative. Broken beats broken my foot, if I can click Tera Ghost on a DNite and nail it with CC to eliminate that threat, you can bet I'm doing it. It's a cold world, bundle up.

Id like to state that changing your sweepers type with tera to avoid lethal damage and continue sweeping isnt a majorly defensive play. You arent really doing anything defensive and are forcing a true 50/50 that snowballs the game in a way that benefits HO way more then other playstyles the large majority of times. If anything, its an extra mistake that you can make on your HO team from the way its currently played if used that way.
 
know. I'd argue some of them would go anyway. Ape is bananas for example.

Ape would be a far more pallitable pokemon if it wasn't terastilizing to escape its weaknesses (its typing which is amazing offensively but poor defensively). Others like Roaring Moon would also be a lot more tolerable if they couldn't change match ups midgame.

Defensive Tera is actually holding a lot of things together and y'all don't wanna talk about it because it doesn't benefit your narrative. Broken beats broken my foot, if I can click Tera Ghost on a DNite and nail it with CC to eliminate that threat, you can bet I'm doing it. It's a cold world, bundle up.

That sounds like broken beats broken. It's not that people won't acknowledge it. People just think it's another symptom of the problem.

I personally believe Tera makes things more competitive by allowing players to skillfully predict a situation and turn the tables. There are definitely drawbacks to it, like for example, Water Ape suddenly needing to worry about Electric-types that wouldn't bother it otherwise.

This is something pro tera players don't wanna talk about but just because X mon has new weaknesses through its tera type, doesn't mean you are going to have the necessary ways of handling it. You may plan for water Ape but what happens when you predict their tera and try to counter only for it to be a different tera? This applies to just about any good tera abuser. Prep for one tera, encounter the wrong tera and you'll be at a huge disadvantage going forwards.
 
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