Yep seems right. I'm happy with the results. While dynamax was of course insane banning two generational gimmicks in a row would set a precedent to just start chucking out generational mechanics for the rest of time.
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Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]
- Thread starter Finchinator
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Something being a generational mechanic shouldn't even be considered in a balance discussion
Yes it should
We have the results of the responses to our first SV OU tiering survey up here!
It seems increasingly likely that we are approaching the first suspect of generation, and the subject of it is set to be Terastallization. As alluded to previously, the plan is to make it a two-prompt suspect (it will likely be a single-time vote, but in order to complete that vote, you have to respond to two simple questions rather than just one). We feel this creative and novel solution best captures the unique situation we are attempting to tier, but also acknowledge that there is no outright perfect solution either.
If the playerbase votes on taking action, which will likely require over 60% support to begin with, then the current options the council are considering for tiering action are as follows:
- Outright banning Terastallization
- Limiting Terastallization to a single user per team
- Showing Tera type at Team Preview
- Limiting Terastallization to previously held STAB types only
Please note that this is NOT set-in-stone and we continue to discuss matters so we can serve our community in the best way we know possible. Thank you.
What no it shouldn't lmao. Keeping a mechanic because you enjoy it or because it's a new thing is the exact opposite of the balance this website Strives for.
good god...i wonder how skewed the results are from pokeaim/freezai fans who couldnt be assed to create a smogon account
I think you did? 62% of qualified responses favored acting on tera, and of that 62%, 53% favor restricting tera and 47% favor outright ban. So 47% of 62% is 29%, not 23%. Broadly speaking, I trust the qualified responses much more than the general because as Finch stated, there was an absolute flood of responses that couldn't be vetted. So a fair breakdown of community sentiment right now is 38% favor no action, 33% favor restriction, and 29% favor a full ban.
In other words, we will likely hit the threshold for some form of restriction but not a full ban.
I disagree
My bad, I used Google and later forgot LOL. I should've double checked but I was an idiot
Your assertion is correct
edit: merged posts myself
100%. pokemon has plenty of true randomness (hax) built into the game, but after playing SV for a month (sitting at 1700 rn), I'm realizing tera is not an example of randomness at all. unpredictability, yes, but not randomness.
every decision involving tera, from selecting what type in the builder, to knowing when to pop it during a game, to reading when your opponent is gonna use theirs, is about making informed decisions based on what you understand about the meta. you couldn't lose a game due to an unexpected tera in the way you could lose to an unexpected crit - the factors are solely in the players' control.
there are/will be mons who abuse the mechanic too much and should get banned, but tera itself is not random or uncompetitive.
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yes but tera.... u can never know what it is off preview.... sure crits u cant control... u can play around it to an extent... and u can play to an extent around tera.... but if u get in a position where u have to 50/50 the tera user if they will tera to something to counter you and you lose the mon, or they may just not tera and may kill them but that requires you to be sure they arent gonna tera... or the mon isnt valuable enough to be kept around ... that requires a big 50/50 every time something is brought in and u are playing balance or HO ... like how are you supposed to guess.. u can infer sure... but that isnt good enough when the opponent is able to predict to
Name one reason why a generational mechanic should be ignored from a balance standpoint for the sake of balance....
Because that is what you are implying lol
prediction and positioning are what makes a good player, though. if you lead gholdengo and the other guy leads chien-pao:
- you don't wanna lose gholdengo turn 1, so you switch to corv.
- if your opponent knows you want to keep gholden and reads your switch, they could double to something like chi-yu.
- he knew you would go corv, and, even if you don't, it's a safe-ish play because chi-yu resists both of gholden's stabs.
crits and other hax are random, and there are certain times in a game or matchup where, if you get crit, you lose 100%. if you were going to live a sucker punch and kill back, but get crit, die, and lose, that was completely random. tera is not that.
Unless it's super broken like Dynamax or remotely close, I absolutely think mechanics (especially generational mechanics) should matter. It's not about ignoring it's about priorities. Tera changes the way the game is played, it isn't easily thrown away.
That's just my philosophy on it, and isn't inherently contradictory to what Smogon aims to do.
I mean, that's why we make separate results from people in the top 250 lol.
anyways, it seems like if everyone in the top 250 voted, we would take action on tera and restrict it. Which I personally agree with lol
Reading comprehension seems poor :/
I didn't say these were broken explicitly due to Terra, I said the meta is really unbalanced due to these mons and went over why.
However, Terra can often be a factor of what makes them so strong.
Ape- Terra water/fire allow it to not be revenged by spa mons such as Chi and Iron Valiant- it also stops will-o-wisp- water lets u beat donzo
Terra on Ape allows it to set up on mons it shouldn't, live hits it shouldn't, and while living hits it shouldn't, it racks up rage fist.
Espa- LMFAO
Cycle- rarely Terras, sometimes ghost to block spin, but shed tails into a mon that usually does Terra lol
Gold- Terras when needed to win games, terra flying lets it beat clod 1v1, Terra normal lets it surprise other Golds and Pult
Cheese-Yu- Oh fr, it only adds extra power needed to break past its checks? That's all?
bruh..
That's just not how bans work. If something is banned from OU, every tier below it has the same ban. Banned from UU, everything below as well; etc.
This goes for everything not just Pokemon. There is also no precedent for this type of action, especially with how Dynamax was handled
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Tera Fire Specs Chi-Yu in sun 2HKOs literally every viable mon except Tyranitar. I don’t know if you were around for Dracovish, but Chi-Yu reminds me of it in the worst way and Tera is what pushes it from suspect-worthy to QB-worthy.
Hard agree that Tera is significantly less of a problem in UU, which I think is why it seems like a lot of UU players have been looking at this thread and scratching their head wondering what exactly the hubbub is about, but I don’t think that’s how it’s going to shake out. Tera’s an Ubers mechanic.
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Uh we are having an entire discussion on how broken tera is my man. At the very least a restriction is needed. You are literally in the thread about restricting or banning the mechanic. Not banning a mechanic that is causing competitive issues because it's a generational gimmick goes directly against what smogon does.
ok but lets use a different example... one that i love using... u just got revenge killed by roaring moon.... u can go into breloom to force it out... but that may not work cuz
1. it may be bulky enough to live... ive seen slight hp invested roaring moon esp the jaw lock variants surviving a CB mach punch... ok that is a acknowledgeable risk but you follow through with it because you are confident it can kill
2. It can tera into flying, a neutral type like fire, but ive seen fairy even being used a bit to setup on dragapult and other dragons, so you risk just losing breloom which may be valuable.... if its not valuable then its a risk you took... but on a game to game basis this may vary esp on offensive teams against other offense
3. You switch out predicting the tera.... that can work and if the opponent gets baited... good for you you did it! but what if the opponent either doesnt want to tera or predicts your switch and nuke you or dragon dances up again because they knew you would switch... and from there u basically lose the game...
Finch said a lot of people didnt follow instructions so that may even be skewed if people cant follow instructions like smogon account
"Of the qualified (top 250 on ladder OR made round 3 of the No Johns Release Tournament) responses, 62% favored acting on Terastallization while 38% did not. This sample consisted of 143 people and was heavily vetted due to an abundance of repeat responses, people claiming they qualified despite not having alts within the top 250 at any point, and people claiming they made the third round of the tournament despite not doing so or not even having a forum account"
I disagree with going with that route for tera specifically tbh, tera is different from dynamax. It's (potential) brokenness is nowhere near as blatently obvious as dynamax.
I know in usum (or oras, I don't remember), drought was banned in UU but allowed in RU and in BW OU, gems were banned in OU but allowed in every lower tier.
Yes. And it being restricted or banned either way should take the fact that it's a generational mechanic into account in terms of how we do it, or the threshold, etc.
Frankly, that's also a part of this thread. As Finchinator has repeatedly noted: What people want matters, and a lot of people say it would suck to ban two generational mechanics in a row in their entirety.
The idea of restriction over an outright ban is also something we are affording Tera solely because it's a generational mechanic. Most things are not given that opportunity.
Dude you're crazy. This website is specifically for balance over all other mechanics. A mechanic being Fun/New is specifically excluded when talking about balance here. Otherwise ya know, its not trying to be a balance discussion.
Like lmao why are you talking about the mechanic on this website then.
I don't know why you're constantly bringing the word balance; I never even said that in my quote. Because I think Terastilization is completely balanced, anyways. What I'm talking about is that we have decided, as a community sorry to be the one to let you in on this:
We are directly giving Terastilization special treatment as a generational mechanic in this way. Because the identity of a generation, the popularity of a generation, and the overall fun of a generation matters. Nobody is saying to not ban Terastilization if it's super broken because it's fun, chill.
Even in the Policy Review thread, lots of posts that want to restrict the mechanic have the explicit goal of balancing the mechanic while retaining it, because it'd be sad to outright bsn a generational mechanic twice in a row.
not sure what your point for this part specifically is. It seems like, from this response, that the results from the top players on ladder was heavily moderated to elimate potential false reports (from ppl who weren't top 250) or repeat responses.
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