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Chou Toshio

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The whole furor around Kyrsten Sinema seems like sour grapes to me, from start to finish. Democrat politicians were obviously mad that she was blocking legislation in a closely contested Senate during the first half of Biden's term, which is fair. What I don't get is the amount of vitriol average people on social media/the Internet have for her - Reddit, Twitter, and a bunch of people in this thread seem to have real hate-boners for a politician from a state that they (presumably) are not from just because she doesn't vote along party lines. I get hate for MGT or AOC - they're very outspoken, and widely considered wackos by the opposing political side. But I don't think Sinema's a fascist or a wacko, she's just a Blue Dog. I can't imagine hating a politician for being a centrist - disagreeing with them, sure; being pissed they blocking legislation that I want passed, also sure. But she's a politician playing a game, and if it works for her over in Arizona, then it works. If it doesn't work next time she's up for election, then that's the way it goes as well. Ditto for Joe Manchin - the amount of vitriol for him on social media when he was blocking the BBB bill. Like I said, really odd that normal people have any sort of emotional investment into these Senators.

That said, I agree she'll probably split the vote when she goes up for reelection. A bold strategy on her part.
It’s very easy to understand: She’s fucking the people over.

The longer better answer: From a standard Democratic/Left perspective the Republican Party is a fascist party threatening the country, and Joe Biden/Democrats having a more successful agenda/administration/democratic reforms are necessary to step away from the edge— anything that dampens that is objectively evil and worthy of genuine hatred; including Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema.

This is a political game as you said, where you win and lose perception/approval/political power. If Sinema is accruing hatred as a player of the game, that’s not the responsibility of those hating her— that’s her responsibility as a player in this political perception game for being bad at it. Wondering why Kyrsten gets hate is like wondering why an RBY player always gets haxed when they only ever run wraptrap teams— that’s a function of THEIR strategy.

@bughouse— they absolutely will run a Democrat imo. Her approval is below 30 with Dems, Independents and Republicans last I checked. This is no Bernie we’re talking about, and those numbers will be going down not up.

And the Dems absolutely have the choice to run another [better] centrist Dem and soak up the corporate support too. If the Republicans keep going absolutely fascist, there’s no political need for a radical progressive challenger either— Dems in Arizona will show up for anyone who will support the party’s agenda/ help save democracy. And if that’s the case, I think corporate support will exist for Sinema but find little reason to support a weak partyless independent with fascists on the other side and a party backed corporate Dem on the other.
 
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It’s very easy to understand: She’s fucking the people over.

The longer better answer: From a standard Democratic/Left perspective the Republican Party is a fascist party threatening the country, and Joe Biden/Democrats having a more successful agenda/administration/democratic reforms are necessary to step away from the edge— anything that dampens that is objectively evil and worthy of genuine hatred; including Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema.

This is a political game as you said, where you win and lose perception/approval/political power. If Sinema is accruing hatred as a player of the game, that’s not the responsibility of those hating her— that’s her responsibility as a player in this political perception game for being bad. Wondering why Kyrsten gets hate is like wondering why an RBY player always gets haxed when they only ever run wraptrap teams— that’s a function of THEIR strategy.

@bughouse— they absolutely will run a Democrat imo. Her approval is below 30 with Dems, Independents and Republicans last I checked. This is no Bernie we’re talking about, and those numbers will be going down not up.

And the Dems absolutely have the choice to run another [better] centrist Dem and soak up the corporate support too. If the Republicans keep going absolutely fascist, there’s no political need for a radical progressive challenger either— Dems in Arizona will show up for anyone who will support the party’s agenda/ help save democracy. And if that’s the case, I think corporate support will exist for Sinema but find little reason to support a weak partyless independent with fascists on the other side and a party backed corporate Dem on the other.
Right, well, I don't live in a world where I view all my political opponents as literally Hitler. I dont want to outlaw opposing my political agenda, I dont think anyone is evil or morally bankrupt just for not 100% agreeing with me, and I dont view my "side" as the saviors of American democracy. I'm sure that this is a view you hold strongly, but frankly its rather undemocratic, tribalistic, and partisan.

That said, I still believe anyone who actually dislikes a given politician merely for not passing an agenda they like is a sucker. Politicians are gonna politic. I live in a democracy - that means people and politicians will disagree with me, pushing through legislation I dislike and blocking legislation I do like. That's not to say there arent politicans I dislike, but politicians merely disagreeing with me does not constitute some great moral failing on their part. Given that I'm not a politician and am not deprived of a living by being out of Washington, it'd be rather silly to live my life being mad about the existence of politicians who disagree with me.
 
Right, well, I don't live in a world where I view all my political opponents as literally Hitler. I dont want to outlaw opposing my political agenda, I dont think anyone is evil or morally bankrupt just for not 100% agreeing with me, and I dont view my "side" as the saviors of American democracy. I'm sure that this is a view you hold strongly, but frankly its rather undemocratic, tribalistic, and partisan.

That said, I still believe anyone who actually dislikes a given politician merely for not passing an agenda they like is a sucker. Politicians are gonna politic. I live in a democracy - that means people and politicians will disagree with me, pushing through legislation I dislike and blocking legislation I do like. That's not to say there arent politicans I dislike, but politicians merely disagreeing with me does not constitute some great moral failing on their part. Given that I'm not a politician and am not deprived of a living by being out of Washington, it'd be rather silly to live my life being mad about the existence of politicians who disagree with me.

Republicans literally staged a Coup de Etat on 6 January 2021, turned the
supreme court into a Catholistan council and created 4582361 bills to erase trans people from society (but iirc you already had shown your anti-trans stance in the past so you won't care about that), yet you have nothing better to do than excusing us to "view all opponents as literal Hitler" and being undemocratic. People are "mad" about Sinema and Manchin, because Biden and Democrats have to fucking stand in unite in these dire times (especially with something dumb like Fillibuster existing) and push legislation such as this recent Same Sex Marriage bill to save Democracy from a party full of Tea Party & Donald Trump cultists, who can't even acknowledge election results let alone any minority or womens rights. It's that simple, people wouldn't be anywhere near this mad if USA were a stable democracy and all the big parties at least acknowledge democracy. You sure as hell ain't a "great" centrist democrat or "republican" (you can't be centrist and vote republicans, some old conservative republican veterans even vouched traditionally republican voting people to vote against Trump backed right-wing extremists these US-midterms) that you think you are.
 
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I like politicians who support and enact policy that I agree with, and dislike politicians who don't. I think this is how being a citizen of a democracy is supposed to work?

Well this and being able to kick them out after few years if a majority hates their policies, and Sinemas policies don't even serve anyone besides maybe a few of her corporate backers (and even that may be questionable). Her approval ratings among republican voters aren't suddenly great but still rather low, they just view her as an useful idiot. She just managed to destroy her political career in a pathethic way, she's completely unelectable.
 
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The Godwin's Law bit is tired. One mainstream American side says that trans and gay people are pedophiles (like the nazis), paints immigrants and refugees as threats (like the nazis), lies so blatantly we needed the word "alternative facts" (like the nazis), claims foreign imperialism as an entitlement (like the nazis), spurns global cooperation on critical issues in favor of big dick nationalism (like the nazis), and masks internal division and corruption by unifying behind an incoherent, charismatic demagogue (like the nazis).

Yes, I am aware the Republican Party is not literally the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. Yes, I am aware the Republican party does not, on the whole, want to murder all the minorities they despise. Yes, I am aware that, on the whole, they don't want to annex foreign territory. These aren't clever or new observations.

But... being comparable to the early-to-middle-stage Nazis instead of the late-stage Nazis isn't acceptable. "Merely" enacting discrimination laws against "degenerate" minorities that "threaten the fabric of society" isn't okay. It's not okay that openly, actively wanting to murder minorities is "just" a minority opinion. It's just not.

If all these Republican positions I said are so compelling that someone just can't pick a side, I just don't know what to say.
 
The Godwin's Law bit is tired. One mainstream American side says that trans and gay people are pedophiles (like the nazis), paints immigrants and refugees as threats (like the nazis), lies so blatantly we needed the word "alternative facts" (like the nazis), claims foreign imperialism as an entitlement (like the nazis), spurns global cooperation on critical issues in favor of big dick nationalism (like the nazis), and masks internal division and corruption by unifying behind an incoherent, charismatic demagogue (like the nazis).

Yes, I am aware the Republican Party is not literally the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. Yes, I am aware the Republican party does not, on the whole, want to murder all the minorities they despise. Yes, I am aware that, on the whole, they don't want to annex foreign territory. These aren't clever or new observations.

But... being comparable to the early-to-middle-stage Nazis instead of the late-stage Nazis isn't acceptable. "Merely" enacting discrimination laws against "degenerate" minorities that "threaten the fabric of society" isn't okay. It's not okay that openly, actively wanting to murder minorities is "just" a minority opinion. It's just not.

If all these Republican positions I said are so compelling that someone just can't pick a side, I just don't know what to say.
What is the use of comparing your opponents to Nazis? Do you think it will change a conservative's mind? "Oh wow my side got called Nazis again for the 3000th time today. That settles it, I'm changing positions." Do you want to make the other half of the country social pariah for holding their views? How do you think that'll work out? Or do you just get some sort of dopamine rush from sitting on a moral high horse and looking down at your "fascist" opponents? Comparing people to Nazis really is where a conversation stops because there's no end goal. It does nothing except make you feel better about not being "like the Nazis".

We're debating politics online. I don't see the point of doing that unless you go into the thread accepting the idea that people disagree with you and that's just OK. If you don't want to have a conversation with people who disagree, then it's really just a big tribalistic circlejerk. And I don't see the point of going to smogon.com's politics thread just to crow about how the people who disagree with me are like Nazis.

Anyone who treats federal level politics as not a farce or thinks Congressmen get it too rough when people get mad at them for not doing anything while they see their lives get materially worse is being willfully obtuse out of some obligation of institutional reverence imho
I'm pointing out that people who hate Sinema and Manchin are buying into political propaganda. It's dumb to take claims about Sinema being a corrupt piece of shit at face value. I'm sure there's plenty of other morally bankrupt/corrupt Senators among the Dems, but you don't hear one word about them. That's because the object of smearing Sinema is not to genuinally point out corruption, but simply seething about her being the reason Dems didn't get what they want. I dont know and I dont care if Sinema is corrupt. I really dont care if she gets reelected, and frankly its not looking like she will.

Like I said, its really a crazy, wild, coincidence that the two Dems responsible for blocking their own party's legislation just also happen to be the only two Dems that are corrupt frauds. There couldn't be an ulterior motive in criticizing their character, could there be?
 
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Chou Toshio

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Right, well, I don't live in a world where I view all my political opponents as literally Hitler.I dont want to outlaw opposing my political agenda, I dont think anyone is evil or morally bankrupt just for not 100% agreeing with me, and I dont view my "side" as the saviors of American democracy.
You don’t see a need to save Society when dealing with Nazis. Hot takes.

I dont want to outlaw opposing my political agenda
Hating people who help Nazis, bitching about them on Pokémon Forums for fun, and wanting to beat them in elections =/= wanting to outlaw opposing political agendas, believe it or not. :pikuh:

I don’t see strong constitutional Conservatives who fight to protect/maintain Representative Republic as literal Nazis. Unfortunately…

UNFORTUNATELY I do see extremely weak/cucked conservatives like a Vice President who still hears out the Nazi Lawyer on Jan 5th before Jan 6th as abetting Nazis. And when you’re voting with Nazis 90% of the time— sorry Liz Cheyney even when you’re being like the lone strong conservative you’re kinda cleaning up your own mess more than stewarding free society.

. I'm sure that this is a view you hold strongly, but frankly it’s rather undemocratic, tribalistic, and partisan.
That’s not the view I hold.
This is the view I hold:
The American Right radicalizes towards authoritarianism/fascism and its establishment is really really bad at stopping itself from being taken over and radicalizing so it heads towards fascism.

The American Left radicalizes towards expanding Democracy— more voting access, more representative legislator makeup/fairer gerrymandering, eliminating electoral college, and at the MOST radical replacing some Representative Legislator with direct democracy (like ballot initiatives) and legislating the democratization of corporate structures (legislating worker-elected corporate board seats and tax cuts for worker coops)— but the Liberal Party’s Establishment wholly has/exercises power blocking leftist radicalization and ability to retain a corporate-friendly Liberal Democratic and Capitalist Party ethos.

Of these two sides, it’s pretty clear which is the greater threat to democracy— the side that can’t stop radicalizing and radicalizes by concentrating power rather than distributing it.

Wanting to see Biden succeed in Social Democratic reforms is guess what— a pro democracy position to anyone except close-minded folks bigoted against their political opposition in a democracy actually.

That said, I still believe anyone who actually dislikes a given politician merely for not passing an agenda they like is a sucker. Politicians are gonna politic. I live in a democracy - that means people and politicians will disagree with me, pushing through legislation I dislike and blocking legislation I do like. That's not to say there arent politicans I dislike, but politicians merely disagreeing with me does not constitute some great moral failing on their part.
So policy content doesn’t matter to your moral assessment of a politician? If their policies were pro killing children would that be morally fine to you? Just clarifying— seems pretty radical to me though, gotta say.

Given that I'm not a politician and am not deprived of a living by being out of Washington, it'd be rather silly to live my life being mad about the existence of politicians who disagree with me.
So you don’t care about any folks who are negatively impacted by the policy of the most powerful country on Earth. Clearly an enlightened civic position for Liberal Democratic Society.
 
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I think a politician disagreeing with my right to live is a pretty big deal, personally. Also that US policies ripple through the world, usually in bad ways.

Im usually not one to side with libs but wishywashy centrism (that only really benefits the status quo anyway) always annoys me. Sorry to be mean and callous but there's a reason people dislike people for being republicans, to side and be ok with a party who propels with life ending policies is, at best, a major red flag to what kind of person they are
 
So when she was voting the way Dems wanted her to, she was staying her lane and being a good little Senator, but now that she stonewalls Democrat legislation, she's obviously a grifter, a huckster, and a cheat?

Again, if I was a Democrat politician I'd be hopping mad at Sinema, but it's crazy to me that anyone who isn't making a living off politics would give two shits about whether Sinema shows the "proper amount" of support for other politicians and their policies. There's a big difference between being mad that policies you support won't go through and smearing the character of any politician responsible. And while smears are part and parcel of politics at the party level and during elections, I think its silly for voters to get too wrapped up in that stuff. It's pure, basic tribalism and partisan politics. What a crazy coincidence that the two Dems who were stonewalling most legislation are also the two accused of being corrupt grifters by other members of the party they are in.



Machin doesn't owe a thing to his party. He owes things to the voters of West Virginia. I'm no an expert on Manchin or WV, but it does not seem surprising to me that the state would be pretty conservative liberals who voted in a conservative Democrat. Will this hurt his reelection prospects? Probably. But maybe West Virginians like what he is doing and will vote him in again.
Yeah, refusing to engage your own party and stonewalling legislation is actually considered a hostile act by parties in representative democracies. There's no reason to do it other than openly defecting or building up to it. People who do this sort of thing would find themselves immediately isolated from any party.

There's also the issue of her character. This is a person who went from writing a thesis on the Rwandan Genocide to aligning behind a party that's increasingly featuring genocidal propaganda in its messaging. We're at the point of blood libel and fake sexual assault accusations (or "grooming") being regular features of their media.


What is the use of comparing your opponents to Nazis? Do you think it will change a conservative's mind? "Oh wow my side got called Nazis again for the 3000th time today. That settles it, I'm changing positions." Do you want to make the other half of the country social pariah for holding their views? How do you think that'll work out? Or do you just get some sort of dopamine rush from sitting on a moral high horse and looking down at your "fascist" opponents? Comparing people to Nazis really is where a conversation stops because there's no end goal. It does nothing except make you feel better about not being "like the Nazis".

We're debating politics online. I don't see the point of doing that unless you go into the thread accepting the idea that people disagree with you and that's just OK. If you don't want to have a conversation with people who disagree, then it's really just a big tribalistic circlejerk. And I don't see the point of going to smogon.com's politics thread just to crow about how the people who disagree with me are like Nazis.

People who compare the Republican Party to the NSDAP don't do so to "change their minds," they do it because the comparison is extremely accurate and observable to the rest of the world. It's a simple observation. If you don't want to be compared to Nazis, don't be a member of the party that actively imitates the policies of fascist governments and promotes neo-Nazis. It's not a difficult fucking concept dude.
 
You don’t see a need to save Society when dealing with Nazis. Hot takes.
There are currently no members of Congress in the Nazi party. The amount of Nazis living in the United States is a miniscule amount of the population, a fraction of a percentage of the 350 million people living in the U.S. There are no Nazis in the U.S. to save democracy from. (Then again, I don't define the word Nazi as "anyone who opposes me politically".)

The American Right radicalizes towards authoritarianism/fascism and its establishment is really really bad at stopping itself from being taken over and radicalizing so it heads towards fascism.

The American Left radicalizes towards expanding Democracy— more voting access, more representative legislator makeup/fairer gerrymandering, eliminating electoral college, and at the MOST radical replacing some Representative Legislator with direct democracy (like ballot initiatives) and legislating the democratization of corporate structures (legislating worker-elected corporate board seats and tax cuts for worker coops)— but the Liberal Party’s Establishment wholly has/exercises power blocking leftist radicalization and ability to retain a corporate-friendly Liberal Democratic and Capitalist Party ethos.
Here's my view:

The American Left radicalizes towards authoritarianism, suppression of free speech through both government collusion with business and media, characterizing all opposition as either fascist/morally evil, and a tendency to expand the power of the central government without a legal basis.

The American Right radicalizes towards Liberty - allowing people in states the right to self-determination through a federalist system, where the people living there determine their own laws without a central government that consistently breaks the 10th amendment. This way, each state can be its own flavor of America, bound by the laws and liberties guaranteed in the Constitution.

Of these two sides, its clear to see which is a greater threat to democracy - the side that continually calls for extralegal expansion of government power in an attempt to neutralize a supposedly "evil" and "fascist" side of the population/government. This evil and fascist party, by the way, does not compromise an unpopular minority. No, it's the whole other 50% of the population and government that disagrees with the Left. That's right, 50% of the population is actually an evil, fascist, outgroup. Now that's tribalism for you!

Wanting to see Biden succeed in Social Democratic reforms is guess what— a pro democracy position to anyone except close-minded folks bigoted against their political opposition in a democracy actually.
You are literally saying here "Opposing my political agenda makes you a bigot and anti-democracy. If you do not support all the things I do, you are a fascist."

Lets bring this back around. This started with Krysten Sinema. You are saying that she is evil, fascist, and morally detestable for not agreeing to help pass the Build Back Better Bill, an infrastructure/social service expansion and COVID relief bill. That's a pretty bold claim.

So policy content doesn’t matter to your moral assessment of a politician? If their policies were pro killing children would that be morally fine to you? Just clarifying— seems pretty radical to me though, gotta say.
Not when it comes to passing a government spending bill no. Actually, I think opposing my economic policy is probably the last reason I would start calling some a fascist enabler and morally bankrupt.

So you don’t care about any folks who are negatively impacted by the policy of the most powerful country on Earth. Clearly an enlightened civic position for Liberal Democratic Society.
No, because there are no policies that benefit everyone. Someone is always going to be negatively impacted by a policy. I support the policies that I think will benefit the most people in the best way, but I don't delude myself into thinking that my policies will bring about some Utopia. Undoubtedly, some people will not want to live in the same kind of society that I live in and would prefer to live in another kind of society. That's ok. They aren't Nazis for disagreeing with me. We vote to see who's vision wins and who's loses.

I think a politician disagreeing with my right to live is a pretty big deal, personally. Also that US policies ripple through the world, usually in bad ways.
Well then, it's a good thing there are no politicians in the U.S. who currently support a murder policy.

People who compare the Republican Party to the NSDAP don't do so to "change their minds," they do it because the comparison is extremely accurate and observable to the rest of the world. It's a simple observation.
Calling 50% of the country and the politicians they elect Nazis is a way to shut down opposition pure and simple. It's a way to say "I don't have to listen to anything you say, because you are a Nazi." Chou over here essentially believes Sinema is a Nazi because she opposed a government relief bill. What that has to do with the tenets of National Socialism, I have no clue.


If you don't want to be compared to Nazis, don't be a member of the party that actively imitates the policies of fascist governments and promotes neo-Nazis. It's not a difficult fucking concept dude.
How convenient. In order to avoid associating with Nazis, the large party in the U.S. that you oppose, should lie on its back and exit from governmental politics. That way, every policy you support will go through. I'm sure this isn't just a moral scare tactic meant to delegitimize political opponents.
 
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The American Left radicalizes towards authoritarianism, suppression of free speech through both government collusion with business and media, characterizing all opposition as either fascist/morally evil, and a tendency to expand the power of the central government without a legal basis.
Ignoring the absurdity of this claim, the american left doesn't radicalize anywhere because it's a fractured mess of wannabe communists that never read karl marx in their life and centrists who think not hating black people is the peak of leftism tearing each other apart on twitter.

Me being a bitch aside, it's incredible that one of the most defanged leftist movements out there is still viewed as this boogeyman that's bringing back stalin from the dead and creating a communist dictatorship, for the most milquetoast takes ever. You point at a party that hosts people that think black people are born to be criminals and lobby to destroy any semblance of lgbt allyship and salivate for fundie christian expansion, call them nazis and suddenly you're the one being authoritarian

Well then, it's a good thing there are no politicians in the U.S. who currently support a murder policy.
:pikuh: Top 10 worst things to say to a trans woman, part 1
 
Calling 50% of the country and the politicians they elect Nazis is a way to shut down opposition pure and simple. It's a way to say "I don't have to listen to anything you say, because you are a Nazi." Chou over here essentially believes Sinema is a Nazi because she opposed a government relief bill. What that has to do with the tenets of National Socialism, I have no clue.




How convenient. In order to avoid associating with Nazis, the large party in the U.S. that you oppose, should lie on its back and exit from governmental politics. That way, every policy you support will go through. I'm sure this isn't just a moral scare tactic meant to delegitimize political opponents.

The former President of the United States and the de-facto Fuhrer of the Republican Party met with three of the foremost antisemites and neo-Nazis in the country for dinner. His followers are literally burning books. He called neo-Nazi rioters "very fine people" after they murdered someone, and you're still here pretending that this is about "shutting down debate." You know what's shutting down debate? Inciting threats against people who criticise you. Banning books. Ideological purges of academic institutions.

Also, the idea that there are no congressmen in the "Nazi Party" is bullshit. Paul Gosar does events for neo-Nazis all the time. MTG's done events with Nick Fuentes.
 
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If your only defense of the Republican party is "well they're not technically Nazis, even though they believe the same things as the Nazis, push the same kinds of propaganda that the Nazis pushed, want the same kinds of policies that the Nazis wanted, demonize minorities the same way the Nazis did so, openly promote fascism, and attempt to overthrow democratically elected representatives", you should probably take a good hard look on exactly where you stand socially. I'm apparently not allowed to call an obvious cryptofascist a cryptofascist here, but it's super suspect when someone runs defense for a party that seeks to deny minorities human rights (unless that minority is billionaires) and not say a god damn word when said party tries to erode the humanity of groups they see themselves opposed to. So-called "centrists" are, in reality, ratchets in favor of the Republican party and a big part of the reason why we find ourselves in the political quagmire we're in today.

This is doubly true if you're going to push Fox News-tier propaganda about how "the left" is pro-authoritarian despite having seemingly no fucking idea what the left actually is. It boggles my mind when conservatives (which you are; or at least you buy into conservative propaganda wholesale) accuse "the left" of being communists in one breath and pro-corporate in the next. You people don't even seem to know who you're opposing. The American left encompasses everything from left-leaning neoliberals (who are sometimes authoritarian) to Marxist-Leninists and various derivatives (who are almost always authoritarian) to most varieties of anarchism (which literally isn't compatible with authoritarianism by definition), and yet conservatives are convinced it's some homogenous hivemind with unified, agreed upon goals.

This is what happens when "enlightened centrists" allow conservatives to drag the Overton window so far to the right; you end up with so many positions that are "on the left" that the term is pretty much meaningless. I'm an anarcho-syndicalist; I have almost nothing in common with your average slightly left-of-center neoliberal, and yet I find myself lumped in with them simply by virtue of the fact that we don't hate minorities, aren't super on board with Laissez-Faire capitalism, and don't want a theocratic dictatorship. That's the level of discourse we find ourselves having here in the supposed greatest country on Earth.
 

Chou Toshio

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The American Left radicalizes towards authoritarianism, suppression of free speech through both government collusion with business and media.
Let’s take the most radical leftists— Bernie and AoC.

What are their government policy prescriptions that suppress free speech?

What are their government or voting management policies that concentrate more political or economic power into fewer people’s hands?

(Authoritarian policies definitionally do this— they have to give some despotic individuals more authority. Stalin had many such policies for instance— what are Bernie’s?)

If you have no correct answer here, then I’ll ignore everything else you have to say.

Calling 50% of the country and the politicians they elect Nazis is a way to shut down opposition pure and simple. It's a way to say "I don't have to listen to anything you say, because you are a Nazi." Chou over here essentially believes Sinema is a Nazi because she opposed a government relief bill. What that has to do with the tenets of National Socialism, I have no clue.
No it’s not. It’s just a makeable claim in free speech.

You said I wanted to OUTLAW opposing opinions. Where did I say that? Asking a second time because you failed to defend your assertion.
You are literally saying here "Opposing my political agenda makes you a bigot and anti-democracy. If you do not support all the things I do, you are a fascist."
I gave my opinion about Sinema (which you’re also mischaracterizing) in a free speech democracy—

I never said she herself is fascist— I said that the right is showing us dangerous fascism (none of which you’re refuting with arguments I notice), and that actions (like her’s) that abet that are evil.

Yes. I do think that. I do hate her for it. Her polling numbers show that my opinion is far from unique, even amongst moderates, conservatives, and liberals.

Not when it comes to passing a government spending bill no. Actually, I think opposing my economic policy is probably the last reason I would start calling some a fascist enabler and morally bankrupt.
When the opposition’s economic policies result in human suffering absolutely I can call that evil. Sure.

I wouldn’t call that fascist— that would need to clear some of the specific qualities of fascism— but I can certainly call it evil.

Well then, it's a good thing there are no politicians in the U.S. who currently support a murder policy.
:woop::woop::woop: :woop:
 
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koista12 said:
There are currently no members of Congress in the Nazi party. The amount of Nazis living in the United States is a miniscule amount of the population, a fraction of a percentage of the 350 million people living in the U.S. There are no Nazis in the U.S. to save democracy from. (Then again, I don't define the word Nazi as "anyone who opposes me politically".)

Of these two sides, its clear to see which is a greater threat to democracy - the side that continually calls for extralegal expansion of government power in an attempt to neutralize a supposedly "evil" and "fascist" side of the population/government. This evil and fascist party, by the way, does not compromise an unpopular minority. No, it's the whole other 50% of the population and government that disagrees with the Left. That's right, 50% of the population is actually an evil, fascist, outgroup. Now that's tribalism for you!
Dude, Hitlers NSDAP literally won the general election in Weimar Germany back in 1932 with 37% of the votes.. So yeah a high percentage of people can totally be aligned with a party who pushes and enacts policies that erases transgender people and LGBTIQ+ in general from society like the republicans do and some people in your party even outright call for genocidal murder of transgender people, policies that outlaw homeless people, policies that ban any book from BIPOC that tackles systemic racism (not just critical race theory) & youth books that literally just have LGBTQ+ representation (what your fox news propaganda describes as "sexualizing children"), hell some evangelical republican nutjobs even want to ban interracial marriage again and they can push for that realistically thx to the supreme court consisting of 6 christian fundamentalists. All these things at once sure as hell ain't merely "Conservative" politics by any stretch of the definition and fit tightly with early-mid stage NSDAP & Republican Fascist Party (Mussolinis Party) politics.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/rcna58337

It's also well known in Germany (and other european countries for that matter) that the ideological beliefs of most republican voters since at least Obamas era (i was too young/not alive to witness or read enough about Bush Jr. era & before american domestic politics, so not gonna talk about that) align by far the most with AFD & NPD (not with CDU/CSU like you may think), the two most relevant Neo-Nazi parties in germany with the former trending at 15% in current Polls. Just recently a former AFD Bundestag representative (Birgit Malsack-Winkemann) got arrested with other "Reichsbürger" people who planned to stage a Insurrection and reinstate the German Empire, barely 2 years after Donald Trumps staged attempt to overthrow the newly elected government. This former parliament representative was set to become Attorney General in this new old german state. AFD politicians pretty much incite the same hateful rethoric against refugees & immigrants (even calling for shooting/murdering refugees on german border), LGBTIQ+ (especially transgender), black & indigenous people, spread conspiracy theories about climate change, covid etc. like republicans do and are well documentedly connected in a worldwide far-right network with Jair Bolsonaro, Marine Le Pen, Viktor Orban, Kaczinski in Poland and other dangerous politicians/parties/groups. So yeah knowing all this, i don't give a flying crap if people like you are butthurt for being called out as "cryptofascist" or Neo-Nazi nor do i expect the "opinions" of people like you to change, hell no. Meanwhile people like me get murdered everyday just because of their mere identity/existence, incited by dangerous "child groomer" and other hateful rhethoric so spare me with your reversal of perpretator and victim.


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koista 12 said:
Well then, it's a good thing there are no politicians in the U.S. who currently support a murder policy.

Well i could really curse you right now as part of a minority that's hunted down and murdered with guns and other weapons by bigots, but that could get me infracted so instead just read these links and then tell me again that there's no murder policy support.

https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/11/23/colorado-springs-shooting-lauren-boebert-tucker-carlson-fbi/

https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/03...er-mississippi-politician-trans-firing-squad/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna39162

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.advocate.com/news/2022/6/14/pro-trump-sc-candidate-mark-burns-calls-executing-allies-lgbtq-kids?amp
 
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something I also want to add is that the very people who are pushing for school purges are also taking interviews with white supremacists and outright neo-Nazis. There's a clear network of right-wing extremists who coordinate with the Republican Party to disrupt elections and intimidate people across the United States (and even abroad). Obviously the Nazi analogy works, but there are plenty of other dictatorships who engaged in behaviour similar to the Republicans, especially Peron, Putin, and Erdogan


Here are Republican leadership literally telling their supporters to fight their perceived enemies in the streets. They awarded a guy known for producing videos with neo-Nazis and posting coded "cultural" references to neo-Nazism. They endorse fascism in all but name, no different from how Putin's Russia does.

White Nationalists, Other Republicans Brace for ‘Total War’ | Southern Poverty Law Center (splcenter.org)
 
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Ignoring the absurdity of this claim, the american left doesn't radicalize anywhere because it's a fractured mess of wannabe communists that never read karl marx in their life and centrists who think not hating black people is the peak of leftism tearing each other apart on twitter.
You do realize that you don't have to be a card carrying communist to be radical, right? While we usually think of politics as a spectrum, there is no universal law that says "you cannot be authoritarian and leftist until you start nationalizing farms". The left absolutely can radicalize while not instituting literal Communism. Many conservatives feel that the left's obsession with gender and identity politics is radical, pushed by a small minority and elevated in national conversation because that's the nature of national politics. Hell, Beto O'Rourke is a radical if you take his statement about coming to your door to take your guns. That is a radical statement, both in Texas and across the nation as a whole. Being on the left wing of American politics does not make you magically immune to being radical or authoritarian.

If your only defense of the Republican party is "well they're not technically Nazis, even though they believe the same things as the Nazis, push the same kinds of propaganda that the Nazis pushed, want the same kinds of policies that the Nazis wanted, demonize minorities the same way the Nazis did so, openly promote fascism, and attempt to overthrow democratically elected representatives", you should probably take a good hard look on exactly where you stand socially. I'm apparently not allowed to call an obvious cryptofascist a cryptofascist here, but it's super suspect when someone runs defense for a party that seeks to deny minorities human rights (unless that minority is billionaires) and not say a god damn word when said party tries to erode the humanity of groups they see themselves opposed to. So-called "centrists" are, in reality, ratchets in favor of the Republican party and a big part of the reason why we find ourselves in the political quagmire we're in today.
This is the back and forth right here. People on the left say "The GOP are Nazis and fascists." Conservatives say "There are no Nazis currently in our government, there are maybe several thousand nazis in the U.S. on a good day, and your definition of fascism essentially boils down to anyone you don't like". You say "well look at these policies the republican party supports. They're kind of like the Nazi party". I say, "The Nazis had lots of policies. They had laws against Jews, they had laws about corporations, and they had ones against animal abuse." Please be more specific. Which laws do you think the Republican party advocates for that make them Nazis? Which ones move this country closer to fascism. And then, I guarantee you, for every point you make that shows why the GOP are fascists, I can make a counterpoint that shows how the Democrats are fascists. There are plenty of things that the Democrats do that I think are authoritarian and I don't like. But you know what I don't do? I don't think everyone who supports the Democrats are fascists. I don't call them Nazis. I think both political parties have authoritarian elements and libertarian elements. And I think screeching "Nazis" at each other is imbecilic. Even in your post, you call them "cryptofascists". What's the definition of cryptofascist? Someone who you don't like, who isn't actually a Nazi, but who you want to call a Nazi because it makes you feel better about your side.

This is doubly true if you're going to push Fox News-tier propaganda about how "the left" is pro-authoritarian despite having seemingly no fucking idea what the left actually is. It boggles my mind when conservatives (which you are; or at least you buy into conservative propaganda wholesale) accuse "the left" of being communists in one breath and pro-corporate in the next. You people don't even seem to know who you're opposing. The American left encompasses everything from left-leaning neoliberals (who are sometimes authoritarian) to Marxist-Leninists and various derivatives (who are almost always authoritarian) to most varieties of anarchism (which literally isn't compatible with authoritarianism by definition), and yet conservatives are convinced it's some homogenous hivemind with unified, agreed upon goals.
I don't watch Fox news, and I genuinely believe that the left has authoritarian tendencies in the same way you think the right does. I haven't accused anyone of being Communist for one, so please dont project that onto me. One can be both "communist" and pro-corporate, China is doing an excellent job of that right now. Anarchists and Communists are not significant portions of the left. They are political minorities that do not have a place in the national discussion, in the same way that nobody cares about monarchists. They do not make up a significant block of voters or politicians, and are entirely irrelevant to the national political discussion, except as a scare tactic by the right. So yeah, when I say the left is authoritarian I mean the neoliberals and self proclaimed social democrats are authoritarian.

and yet conservatives are convinced it's some homogenous hivemind with unified, agreed upon goals.
I could say the same about the left's views on conservatives. I don't think its really useful to split hairs like this when we are talking about broad strokes trends in a political party. Unlike y'all, I don't think you guys are all fascists for supporting an authoritarian party, I just think we have different views.


This is what happens when "enlightened centrists" allow conservatives to drag the Overton window so far to the right; you end up with so many positions that are "on the left" that the term is pretty much meaningless. I'm an anarcho-syndicalist; I have almost nothing in common with your average slightly left-of-center neoliberal, and yet I find myself lumped in with them simply by virtue of the fact that we don't hate minorities, aren't super on board with Laissez-Faire capitalism, and don't want a theocratic dictatorship. That's the level of discourse we find ourselves having here in the supposed greatest country on Earth.
What a coincidence, I think the Overton window is very far to the Left right now. Seems like you have a strawman understanding of the right. Conservatives do not want to live in a theocracy and they don't hate minorities. Its cool that you don't support laissez-faire capitalism, but conservatives certainly do, as do "enlightened centrists". If you think supporting laissez-faire capitalism is a radical position in American politics than you should read a history book.

Let’s take the most radical leftists— Bernie and AoC.

What are their government policy prescriptions that suppress free speech?

What are their government or voting management policies that concentrate more political or economic power into fewer people’s hands?

(Authoritarian policies definitionally do this— they have to give some despotic individuals more authority. Stalin had many such policies for instance— what are Bernie’s?)
Why take the most radical politicians? Let's take the mainstream. Both the Trump and the Biden government colluded with Twitter to suppress persons and opinions they did not like. Throughout the later stages of COVID, Democrat lawmakers routinely extended mask mandates and kept schools shut down despite (in my opinion) a lack of real need for this, and opposed to a real need to open up society again. Joe Biden has pushed forth student loan forgiveness using a COVID relief bill, despite being told beforehand that this was unconstitutional. Democrats criticized the Great Barrington delegation despite continually saying "follow the science". And the state I live in, Hawaii, instituted a "vaccine passport" to enter businesses (which was not illegal, but was highly authoritarian in my opinion).

The Republican party has issues. Trump and his supporters seriously eroded government norms needed in a free country. He should be impeached for his actions around the riots at the Capitol. And the Republicans in office who still support him should be ashamed. I'm not going to say there are no authoritarian trends in the GOP. If you believe that the GOP as a whole is the authoritarian party, and the Democrats are the party of freedom, fine! I don't agree but I could see a case for it.

But bringing out the F word is hyperbolic and untrue. Saying "well y'know the Republicans have some policies that the Nazis had" is a silly thing to say. It's a way to denigrate people you don't agree with, and always have a way out when they point out flaws in your reasoning. You can always say "well what about the shitty things this politician said/did, and what about this policy?" But fascism isn't when you can point out several politicians who do things you disagree with. If it was, then I would be calling the Democrats fascists. But I'm not, because I have the intellectual humility to acknowledge that people have different views, and I can disagree with policies or trends or things the Democrats say without labeling the whole party as fascist

No it’s not. It’s just a makeable claim in free speech.

I gave my opinion about Sinema (which you’re also mischaracterizing) in a free speech democracy—
Yeah I'm not saying you can't say whatever you want.

It’s very easy to understand: She’s fucking the people over.

The longer better answer: From a standard Democratic/Left perspective the Republican Party is a fascist party threatening the country, and Joe Biden/Democrats having a more successful agenda/administration/democratic reforms are necessary to step away from the edge— anything that dampens that is objectively evil and worthy of genuine hatred; including Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema.
This is what you said. Its an us or them attitude. To rephrase what you are saying here "My opponents are fascists. My side is good and right. If you oppose anything that my side supports (and lets remember, we are talking about a government spending bill here), then you are evil and I hate you." These are your words not mine. If I were a democrat who supported the BBB Bill, I would not consider Sinema to be an evil person merely for opposing legislation I like. I would call her a shitty Democrat. I would say she's an opportunist trying to court conservative voters and its gonna end badly for her career. In fact, I agree with you on those things! But calling her evil and smearing her character is just tribalism. Its "If you're not with me, you're against me, and I hate you as a person".

I do hate her for it
That's sad. I can't imagine actually hating a person I've never met, when the only thing they ever did to me was block a government spending bill.
 
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You do realize that you don't have to be a card carrying communist to be radical right? While we usually think of politics as a spectrum, there is no universal law that says "you cannot be authoritarian and leftist until you start nationalizing farms". The left absolutely can radicalize while not instituting literal Communism. Many conservatives feel that the left's obsession with gender and identity politics is radical, pushed by a small minority and elevated in national conversation because that's the nature of national politics. Hell, Beto O'Rourke is a radical if you take his statement about coming to your door to take your guns. That is a radical statement, both in Texas and across the nation as a whole. Being on the left wing of American politics does not make you magically immune to being radical or authoritarian.

Once again: incredible how the most defanged leftist movement who is fighting for its life to elect presidents that aren't far right but rather center-right gets accused of radicalism for the most milquetoast takes. Trans people shouldn't be shot to death is a radical statement now. A vague epic #comeback about guns in the country with the most school shooters in the world is radicalism. The republicans that believe in eugenics are ok tho, you're just hating someone you never met, no basis at all.


Also I feel like you think I'm saying that the left isn't radical: you misunderstood, I'm saying the american left isn't radical enough. You see, I'm what the kids call a tankie, a pinko even. I thought the insults to liberals would have made that clearer, but alas
 
LGBTQ+ rights are human rights. Systemic racism is an issue in the US. "If you don't like it, then leave" is problematic. This post does not represent the kind of community we want to have here on Smogon.
Dude, Hitlers NSDAP literally won the general election in Weimar Germany back in 1932 with 37% of the votes.. So yeah a high percentage of people can totally be aligned with a party who pushes and enacts policies that erases transgender people and LGBTIQ+ in general from society like the republicans do and some people in your party even outright call for genocidal murder of transgender people, policies that outlaw homeless people, policies that ban any book from BIPOC that tackles systemic racism (not just critical race theory) & youth books that literally just have LGBTQ+ representation (what your fox news propaganda describes as "sexualizing children"), hell some evangelical republican nutjobs even want to ban interracial marriage again and they can push for that realistically thx to the supreme court consisting of 6 christian fundamentalists. All these things at once sure as hell ain't merely "Conservative" politics by any stretch of the definition and fit tightly with early-mid stage NSDAP & Republican Fascist Party (Mussolinis Party) politics.
Your beliefs seem to be that LGBT people should be accepted in society and systemic racism is an issue in the U.S. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

This may come as a shock, but many people do not agree with this views. You're views on these matters are not universal. Many people do not think we should present LGB lifestyles as something acceptable to children. (I personally am not one of those people opposing it) Many people do not think trans people are actually the gender they claim to be. Many people think that systemic racism is a boogeyman utilized by political opportunists to scapegoat and denigrate conservatives and white people.

You don't agree with these views, fine. But what's fascist about them? Until the 2000s, being gay considered socially taboo. Until the 2010s, being trans was socially taboo. Until the late 2010s, pretty much nobody was talking about how the U.S. had a systemic racism problem (It was not a big talking point in politics till recently). Unless you are claiming that the U.S. prior to 2000 was a fascist country, then these things bear no relation to fascism. We are simply in a period of changing social values and half the country agrees with these new values, and half doesn't. This does not mean the people who disagree with you are fascists; they just have a different moral code than you.

Now, laws against LGBT people may be authoritarian. They may even be unconstitutional, and many were ruled as such in the last 20 years. That doesn't make them fascist. And that doesn't mean people who don't share your moral code are fascists. (This is where I'll shill for federalism again because in that system, as long each state abides by the Constitution, they are free to pass whatever laws they want that align with their citizens' moral code. If you don't like one state you are free to leave for another).


It's also well known in Germany (and other european countries for that matter) that the ideological beliefs of most republican voters since at least Obamas era (i was too young/not alive to witness or read enough about Bush Jr. era & before american domestic politics, so not gonna talk about that) align by far the most with AFD & NPD (not with CDU/CSU like you may think), the two most relevant Neo-Nazi parties in germany with the former trending at 15% in current Polls. Just recently a former AFD Bundestag representative (Birgit Malsack-Winkemann) got arrested with other "Reichsbürger" people who planned to stage a Insurrection and reinstate the German Empire, barely 2 years after Donald Trumps staged attempt to overthrow the newly elected government. This former parliament representative was set to become Attorney General in this new old german state. AFD politicians pretty much incite the same hateful rethoric against refugees & immigrants (even calling for shooting/murdering refugees on german border), LGBTIQ+ (especially transgender), black & indigenous people, spread conspiracy theories about climate change, covid etc. like republicans do and are well documentedly connected in a worldwide far-right network with Jair Bolsonaro, Marine Le Pen, Viktor Orban, Kaczinski in Poland and other dangerous politicians/parties/groups. So yeah knowing all this, i don't give a flying crap if people like you are butthurt for being called out as "cryptofascist" or Neo-Nazi nor do i expect the "opinions" of people like you to change, hell no. Meanwhile people like me get murdered everyday just because of their mere identity/existence, incited by dangerous "child groomer" and other hateful rhethoric so spare me with your reversal of perpretator and victim.
Yeah well its well know in Burkina Faso that American leftists' policies actually align with the Chinese Communists Party's views. I don't really care if some random foreign media says "ACTUALLY THE NAZI EXPERTS SAY REPUBLICANS ARE NAZIS". That's a pretty weak, cherrypicked argument. The rest of this seems to be arguing that there is some vast global network of far right activists conspiring against LGBT people and non-white people. Seems to be a conspiracy theory if you ask me.
 
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Trans people shouldn't be shot to death is a radical statement now.
No politicians are calling for all trans people to be shot. There are politicians who believe that giving trans children gender affirming care is wrong. There are politicians who are convinced that kids are being brought to drag shows as an excuse to sexually abuse them. This may be hyperbole, it may be a moral scare, but these are issues that many people feel strongly about, and not because they have some burning hatred for trans people. These are just divisive issues being circulated through the media. There are no politicians who want to murder trans people.

Edit: Its cool you're a communist but your views on that don't matter here. We aren't arguing economics here; I don't see how your being a Communist matters when talking about whether the GOP is fascist or not. I am using the term radical relative mainstream U.S politics.
 
Your beliefs seem to be that LGBT people should be accepted in society and systemic racism is an issue in the U.S. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

This may come as a shock, but many people do not agree with this views. You're views on these matters are not universal. Many people do not think we should present LGB lifestyles as something acceptable to children. (I personally am not one of those people opposing it) Many people do not think trans people are actually the gender they claim to be. Many people think that systemic racism is a boogeyman utilized by political opportunists to scapegoat and denigrate conservatives and white people.

You don't agree with these views, fine. But what's fascist about them? Until the 2000s, being gay considered socially taboo. Until the 2010s, being trans was socially taboo. Until the late 2010s, pretty much nobody was talking about how the U.S. had a systemic racism problem (It was not a big talking point in politics till recently). Unless you are claiming that the U.S. prior to 2000 was a fascist country, then these things bear no relation to fascism. We are simply in a period of changing social values and half the country agrees with these new values, and half doesn't. This does not mean the people who disagree with you are fascists; they just have a different moral code than you.

Now, laws against LGBT people may be authoritarian. They may even be unconstitutional, and many were ruled as such in the last 20 years. That doesn't make them fascist. And that doesn't mean people who don't share your moral code are fascists. (This is where I'll shill for federalism again because in that system, as long each state abides by the Constitution, they are free to pass whatever laws they want that align with their citizens' moral code. If you don't like one state you are free to leave for another).




Yeah well its well know in China that American leftists' policies actually align with the Chinese Communists Party's views. I don't really care if some random foreign media says "ACTUALLY THE NAZI EXPERTS SAY REPUBLICANS ARE NAZIS". That's a pretty weak, cherrypicked argument. The rest of this seems to be arguing that there is some vast global network of far right activists conspiring against LGBT people and non-white people. Seems to be a conspiracy theory if you ask me.

All this essay writing just to confess that you don't believe in universal human rights and yes, LGBTQ+ rights are indeed human rights. The rest of your essay is so laughable and frankly not even worth to continue a discussion cause it's so far from reality (Chinas Communist Party policies such as genocide against Uyghurs, LGBTQ+ persecution etc. are the antithesis of what the "american left" is fighting for for example), other people may continue to reply to you but it's frankly a waste of time.
Have a nice day.

Edit: Imagine calling someone a communist who openly speaks against everything the chinese CPC stands for since Mao Zedongs revolution, another case of republicans not knowing shit about communism and how actual communists think.
 
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