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Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter clerica
- Start date
I think it's finally time to ban both Yawn and Spore. Sleep is uncompetitive and already proved that by banning most/all sleep moves in old gens. Spore/Yawn have failed to be banned due to the lack of abusers but in SV both of these moves have strong abusers which aren't as easy to counter. Sylv/Skere for Yawn, Breloom/Bonnet for spore as examples.
Other than that, I think the meta is starting to become balanced for a pre-home meta. Can't wait for home/dlc cause early gen is so boring ngl.
Other than that, I think the meta is starting to become balanced for a pre-home meta. Can't wait for home/dlc cause early gen is so boring ngl.
brodie is not complaining about breloom in its most power crept gen yet
I was going to write a more serious post about how sleep mons have never had more hassle to deal with in any gen but I have been reminded that Custap doesn’t even exist yet throwing 90% of the uncompetitive argument out the window.
Dirge, Sylv, and Bonnet are all mons great independently of rolling for sleep turns.
WP Dirge (the most potent and common Yawn set) hardly needs any turns. It’s mainly for a singular free turn against faster targets to throw off a boosted Blast Burn which doesn’t require (and often isn’t helped by) sleep turns. In the case of slower threats like Ting-Lu it’s the same case of not needing a turn unless you run into AV but I’m pretty sure some spreads can’t eat a +3 blast burn after +2 torch song regardless lmao. Yawn is a short-term solution to the lack of Custap Encore which is the real crack.
Admittedly, of the bunch Sylv is the most dependent on sleep turns. A lot of Yawn MUs need one turn most notably to me is slower AV threats like Iron Hands or Ting-Lu and faster attackers that can threaten 2hko. I still maintain that this RNG is something you just need to account for as malding about losing a MU in your opp’s favor is bizarre. It’s also a pretty common range where similar shit like focus blast/hurricane/moonblast drops/steam eruption burn happen it just feels selective to target one mon that rolls similar odds while punishing a ton of mons that use the move for purposes independent of rolling the dice (in this gen dirge or empo if he returns.) Even beyond the policy scuffle for the time it lacks custap greatly expanding the viability of reliable counterplay. Also considering we’re getting some incredible steels and fires that shit on sylv in home regardless of custap this ban feels like it’s giving sylv too much credit.
Bonnet is the newest of the bunch so I find it odd to call for a ban before people can agree if it’s good or total dogshit. My personal opinion and experience w it is that it’s a solid slow attacker that makes up for its slow speed with sucker and coverage but it has a fair amount of issues. The typing is pretty bad on something so slow there’s only so much weakness berries can patch that. The only boon the typing gives offensively is the incredibly strong suckers, it’s mostly reliant on CC or Outrage to cover these offensive holes which tbf they do a surprisingly good job at. Knowing that it loves it coverage, where are you fitting spore? Seed Bomb/Sucker/CC/Outrage is stretching it, you could drop coverage or grass move but why it doesn’t even utilize sleep that well. Sucker makes it a lot better into faster offensive threats and it’s pretty much boned into any mon w physical boosting regardless of sleep. Maybe if Counter shit starts being real again I can see some use but I think the return and potential of Spore is not there for this mon. But hey, who knows! Maybe I’m totally wrong but it’s certainly way too early to tell for a mon that is brand new and will have to deal w power creep pretty soon.
I only mention Breloom for the sake of completion, this mon is not even good cheese without custap. Incredibly lackluster stats leave loom decimated by anything faster that can tank a mach (most of them) and Spore is not something it likes clicking as a faster mon since it’s fucked if anything hits back leaving it reliant on absurd sleep rolls. Loom is not suddenly real because it can accomplish something any of the amazing new fightings we got can, or hell, anything with fighting coverage and a decent stat spread. I don’t have much more to say, this mon is incredibly bad and it gets custap back at the same time we get real pokemon back.
A shorter section on new tools to deal w it. Ape is an amazing mon with Vital Spirit being one of the best tools to deal with the bonkers ass physical attackers. Encore distribution has never been better making mons reliant on sleep so much harder to abuse. Increased strong prio distribution, general immense speed and power creep, increased access to speed control via Trailbraze, etc.
There is so much new shit to deal with sleep I find myself asking not if it’s banworthy but if it’s even viable.
Dirge, Sylv, and Bonnet are all mons great independently of rolling for sleep turns.
WP Dirge (the most potent and common Yawn set) hardly needs any turns. It’s mainly for a singular free turn against faster targets to throw off a boosted Blast Burn which doesn’t require (and often isn’t helped by) sleep turns. In the case of slower threats like Ting-Lu it’s the same case of not needing a turn unless you run into AV but I’m pretty sure some spreads can’t eat a +3 blast burn after +2 torch song regardless lmao. Yawn is a short-term solution to the lack of Custap Encore which is the real crack.
Admittedly, of the bunch Sylv is the most dependent on sleep turns. A lot of Yawn MUs need one turn most notably to me is slower AV threats like Iron Hands or Ting-Lu and faster attackers that can threaten 2hko. I still maintain that this RNG is something you just need to account for as malding about losing a MU in your opp’s favor is bizarre. It’s also a pretty common range where similar shit like focus blast/hurricane/moonblast drops/steam eruption burn happen it just feels selective to target one mon that rolls similar odds while punishing a ton of mons that use the move for purposes independent of rolling the dice (in this gen dirge or empo if he returns.) Even beyond the policy scuffle for the time it lacks custap greatly expanding the viability of reliable counterplay. Also considering we’re getting some incredible steels and fires that shit on sylv in home regardless of custap this ban feels like it’s giving sylv too much credit.
Bonnet is the newest of the bunch so I find it odd to call for a ban before people can agree if it’s good or total dogshit. My personal opinion and experience w it is that it’s a solid slow attacker that makes up for its slow speed with sucker and coverage but it has a fair amount of issues. The typing is pretty bad on something so slow there’s only so much weakness berries can patch that. The only boon the typing gives offensively is the incredibly strong suckers, it’s mostly reliant on CC or Outrage to cover these offensive holes which tbf they do a surprisingly good job at. Knowing that it loves it coverage, where are you fitting spore? Seed Bomb/Sucker/CC/Outrage is stretching it, you could drop coverage or grass move but why it doesn’t even utilize sleep that well. Sucker makes it a lot better into faster offensive threats and it’s pretty much boned into any mon w physical boosting regardless of sleep. Maybe if Counter shit starts being real again I can see some use but I think the return and potential of Spore is not there for this mon. But hey, who knows! Maybe I’m totally wrong but it’s certainly way too early to tell for a mon that is brand new and will have to deal w power creep pretty soon.
I only mention Breloom for the sake of completion, this mon is not even good cheese without custap. Incredibly lackluster stats leave loom decimated by anything faster that can tank a mach (most of them) and Spore is not something it likes clicking as a faster mon since it’s fucked if anything hits back leaving it reliant on absurd sleep rolls. Loom is not suddenly real because it can accomplish something any of the amazing new fightings we got can, or hell, anything with fighting coverage and a decent stat spread. I don’t have much more to say, this mon is incredibly bad and it gets custap back at the same time we get real pokemon back.
A shorter section on new tools to deal w it. Ape is an amazing mon with Vital Spirit being one of the best tools to deal with the bonkers ass physical attackers. Encore distribution has never been better making mons reliant on sleep so much harder to abuse. Increased strong prio distribution, general immense speed and power creep, increased access to speed control via Trailbraze, etc.
There is so much new shit to deal with sleep I find myself asking not if it’s banworthy but if it’s even viable.
Not seeing a lot of discussion about vivillon but that mon is definitely a notable part of the sleep ecosystem, 304 speed traps a bunch of random stuff that's currently best off running ada/modest and hurricane is kinda neat with all the fightings running around. Typing gives it okay odds vs some faster things like great tusk and valiant also. Vivi + donphan is a core that seems to work pretty well.
Yeah, first thing I did on ladder was load up an old Viv + ground type core (like mentioned above by HCTC) and I thought it was viable but definitely not even close to ban worthy. I really like sleep this gen and I'm 99% sure the meta would be worse without it.
SV gave us a bunch of really fat mons that also hit very hard and basically just ohko more offensively ev'ed mons. It's easier than ever to just run hp/def/spdef evs to tank any hit and I think sleep offers up a healthy way to force some of these mons to give up bulk in order to run speed.
Sleep isn't so bad especially compared to booster energy..
SV gave us a bunch of really fat mons that also hit very hard and basically just ohko more offensively ev'ed mons. It's easier than ever to just run hp/def/spdef evs to tank any hit and I think sleep offers up a healthy way to force some of these mons to give up bulk in order to run speed.
Sleep isn't so bad especially compared to booster energy..
Alright, since Cash brought up booster energy I might as well make the post I've been meaning to make. At scream tail's peak there were a few people arguing that it was booster energy making scream tail broken by giving it a no-punishment scarf, and those people were ultimately proven wrong by the popularity of rocky helmet and I guess scarf trick sets that pushed scream tail over the edge. Now in the event there's anyone who still thinks booster energy is banworthy I'd like to make my point as to why booster energy isn't really broken at all, and that it's ultimately going to be healthier for the tier.
To do this, I'm going to list each paradox pokemon in the order of (in my opinion) their viability right now:
Bye
To do this, I'm going to list each paradox pokemon in the order of (in my opinion) their viability right now:
Good:
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This pokemon is in my opinion one of the scariest in the tier right now. The bulk, attack, and movepool make it just plain hard to check it, and it is of my opinion that choice band is just as good, if not better a set than booster energy is. This is for a few reasons. First off, teams I've seen on ladder and teams I've enjoyed using have had to be iron hands check iron hands to fit the pokemon they want, and the player with the iron hands better at beating other iron hands wins in this scenario. Because of this, I switched out my booster energy iron hands for a max speed banded iron hands, and shot up the ladder only stopping at 1650. The power that choice banded iron hands brings is also just better right now than booster energy's ability to switch moves. Iron hands is slow, and with its biggest check being special attackers, slotting bulk up or swords dance isn't very useful and just takes up a moveslot that you really need. Pokemon like ting-lu also can't afford to bulk banded close combat while they can afford to bulk a booster energy, so you kill any ting lu that wants to stand up to a chi-yu.
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Hands Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Ting-Lu: 434-512 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Booster Energy Iron Hands Close Combat vs. 224 HP / 0+ Def Ting-Lu: 428-506 (84.4 - 99.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
tldr just use band like dude yeah no just use band
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Again, great tusk much like iron hands, either wants band to kill shit or bulk up to outfat things. Booster energy boosting defense is of course scary, but as a pokemon whose achilles heel is its special defense I don't think a defense boosting item is really that much to worry about. Booster energy great tusk gives us a good defensive wall that still gets taken advantage of by encore ape or a special attacker, and is absolutely not banworthy.
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I almost put this in eh tier but oh well. Booster energy is a fast pokemon that's a good reliable check to dragapult, meowscarada, and etc. Some people are running encore disable booster energy on this but the bad overall bulk just stops it from being really scary just like mega-alakazam was in sm. I believe iron valiant is a very healthy addition to the metagame, who I'd say is the best speed control we have right now, and a nice reliable check to chi-yu if you can get creative. Not banworthy.
Eh:
: Specs is the best set imo, booster energy speed can't kill the things it needs and flutter mane will always be destined to die to priority. Flutter mane is pretty okay, it's pretty healthy for 1v1, and it's pretty pretty but nobody asked me about that.
: Haven't used this but I think it's just a sort of bulky priority mon. Booster energy probably works well on this but it doesn't make slither wing much better than life orb was.
: Speed boost can't kill skeledirge, your status movepool is limited to like metal sound+screens? Specs is better.
Iron treads: Probably good, doesn't do enough damage to check iron hands or to beat chi-yu
: Not that good, the booster energy nerf hit this and the meta grew to handle brute bonnet perfectly fine
: I used this to beat scream tail but after the scream tail ban specs is just better than booster energy would be.
: If your whole niche is checking fairies/steels, booster energy doesn't make this any better than it would be without it. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.
: Seems fine enough but you need attack boost to kill skeledirge and you're getting outclassed by other grounds regardless.
I wouldn't use this but I wouldn't begrudge you if you wanted to:
: Bad, lose to fairies, don't kill things, booster energy can make you fast but then you're just fast weak and have a bad typing so it won't help you much
: Bad, use hydreigon or roaring moon
: Worse ttar cause no sand, don't even think you want booster energy on this
At the end of the day, if people are worried about booster energy giving a free scarf, they're more worried about booster energy in theory than they are about booster energy in practice. Speed booster iron valiant is a healthy and good addition to the tier, and everything else are perfectly manageable using booster energy.
:This pokemon is in my opinion one of the scariest in the tier right now. The bulk, attack, and movepool make it just plain hard to check it, and it is of my opinion that choice band is just as good, if not better a set than booster energy is. This is for a few reasons. First off, teams I've seen on ladder and teams I've enjoyed using have had to be iron hands check iron hands to fit the pokemon they want, and the player with the iron hands better at beating other iron hands wins in this scenario. Because of this, I switched out my booster energy iron hands for a max speed banded iron hands, and shot up the ladder only stopping at 1650. The power that choice banded iron hands brings is also just better right now than booster energy's ability to switch moves. Iron hands is slow, and with its biggest check being special attackers, slotting bulk up or swords dance isn't very useful and just takes up a moveslot that you really need. Pokemon like ting-lu also can't afford to bulk banded close combat while they can afford to bulk a booster energy, so you kill any ting lu that wants to stand up to a chi-yu.
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Hands Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Ting-Lu: 434-512 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Booster Energy Iron Hands Close Combat vs. 224 HP / 0+ Def Ting-Lu: 428-506 (84.4 - 99.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
tldr just use band like dude yeah no just use band
:Again, great tusk much like iron hands, either wants band to kill shit or bulk up to outfat things. Booster energy boosting defense is of course scary, but as a pokemon whose achilles heel is its special defense I don't think a defense boosting item is really that much to worry about. Booster energy great tusk gives us a good defensive wall that still gets taken advantage of by encore ape or a special attacker, and is absolutely not banworthy.
:I almost put this in eh tier but oh well. Booster energy is a fast pokemon that's a good reliable check to dragapult, meowscarada, and etc. Some people are running encore disable booster energy on this but the bad overall bulk just stops it from being really scary just like mega-alakazam was in sm. I believe iron valiant is a very healthy addition to the metagame, who I'd say is the best speed control we have right now, and a nice reliable check to chi-yu if you can get creative. Not banworthy.
Eh:
: Specs is the best set imo, booster energy speed can't kill the things it needs and flutter mane will always be destined to die to priority. Flutter mane is pretty okay, it's pretty healthy for 1v1, and it's pretty pretty but nobody asked me about that.: Haven't used this but I think it's just a sort of bulky priority mon. Booster energy probably works well on this but it doesn't make slither wing much better than life orb was.: Speed boost can't kill skeledirge, your status movepool is limited to like metal sound+screens? Specs is better.Iron treads: Probably good, doesn't do enough damage to check iron hands or to beat chi-yu
: Not that good, the booster energy nerf hit this and the meta grew to handle brute bonnet perfectly fine: I used this to beat scream tail but after the scream tail ban specs is just better than booster energy would be.: If your whole niche is checking fairies/steels, booster energy doesn't make this any better than it would be without it. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.: Seems fine enough but you need attack boost to kill skeledirge and you're getting outclassed by other grounds regardless. I wouldn't use this but I wouldn't begrudge you if you wanted to:
: Bad, lose to fairies, don't kill things, booster energy can make you fast but then you're just fast weak and have a bad typing so it won't help you much: Bad, use hydreigon or roaring moon: Worse ttar cause no sand, don't even think you want booster energy on thisAt the end of the day, if people are worried about booster energy giving a free scarf, they're more worried about booster energy in theory than they are about booster energy in practice. Speed booster iron valiant is a healthy and good addition to the tier, and everything else are perfectly manageable using booster energy.
Bye
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I didn't mention Viv (and to a lesser extent Pluff) cuz it's agreed from last gen Sleep Powder speed traps function regardless of Sleep Turns and w Wide Lens/Compound Eyes their odds to lose winning MUs is miniscule so it's not even worth arguing they're uncomp. I don't have a ton of experience with Viv as a mon honestly but the massive speed creep dissuaded me from trying it, the point that the typing does give it some MUs similar to Venu last gen is interesting it seems cool. I think pluff is total balls it has easily the least flexibility of any sleep user and its useless on its own. Notable things to me is that it's the only Sleep mon that flat out loses to Taunt and Grasses with no room for haggling. Viv seems okay but it doesn't really come up in sleep discussions, I'm pretty hopeful even worse case it isn't removed from the tier as collateral.
Hello, I am not a pokemon fan whatsoever. But I do love me some statistics...
I was recently asked by a diehard Pokemon Fan of a friend to find the chances of the population bomb flinch chance or whatever it is and also the average hits of the population bomb. I did my math both with respect to finding the solution with simulations and arithmetically. To do it with simulations, I simply made a for loop in a java script program that ran the simulation of getting a hit with Population Bomb's 90% chance through an RNG and conditional statement and doing this until the loop got to all 10 hits in a row or till it ran into the miss. It then kept track of the hit outcomes of the simulations along with the number of simulations performed and did simple division to give the average number of around 5.86 hits for the use of the move. In a similar fashion, I used another loop to do the chances of getting a flinch for each amount of hits for each simulation and kept track of the total number of times flinched and the total amount of simulations and did simple division yet again to find a number of around 0.416 chance to cause a flinch with the move. These numbers are very close as I left my PC running for about 10 minutes and did 5+ million simulations. Just to double check this, I did the math and found the numbers to be just about the same. The math is just basic statistics using sums which I will leave below:
Average # of Hits:
1*(0.1)*(0.9)^1 + 2*(0.1)*(0.9)^2 + 3*(0.1)*(0.9)^3 + 4*(0.1)*(0.9)^4 + 5*(0.1)*(0.9)^5 + 6*(0.1)*(0.9)^6 + 7*(0.1)*(0.9)^7 + 8*(0.1)*(0.9)^8 + 9*(0.1)*(0.9)^9 +
10*(0.9)^10 = 5.862
OR
Sum( (0.1n)*(0.9^(n), n, from 0, to 9) + 10*(0.9)^10 = 5.862
Flinch Chance:
(0.1)*(0.9)^(0) + (0.1)*(0.9)^(2) + (0.1)*(0.9)^(4) + (0.1)*(0.9)^(6) + (0.1)*(0.9)^(8) + (0.1)*(0.9)^(10) + (0.1)*(0.9)^(12) + (0.1)*(0.9)^(14) + (0.1)*(0.9)^(16) + (0.1)*(0.9)^(18) + (0.9)^20 = 4.160
OR
Sum( (0.1)*(0.9)^(2n), n, from 0, to 9) + (0.9)^20 = 0.416
So in total, 5.86 average amount of hits for population bomb and a 0.416 chance to flinch with whatever the king gadget is or something. Again, not a pokemon fan, but these are the right numbers.
yea i made my own program, and the results are the same. https://onlinegdb.com/qyvoLPWYk
I can’t be the only one concerned by these series of decisions by council. Upon discussion with the community, most agreed that Annihilape was not currently problematic and that Yawn was the problematic aspect of sleep. In both cases, this input was ignored.
To address Ape, I’m not against a suspect in a vacuum with the mixed feelings on it. It just seems at an awkward timing when Cinder is being released back into the tier during the suspect. My thoughts on Ape itself aren’t really relevant to the fact that I find this suspect a dubious decision.
On the other hand, the Sleep quickbans went essentially without community input. Anyone will concede Yawn was a problem on Dirge, sure, whatever. But immediate Spore and Sleep Powder quickbans? The most community discussion that happened on either of these was a roompoll. All forms of sleep other than Yawn are absolutely not clean cut cases and to quickban them was ridiculous. If you want to make an argument for Viv/Pluff/Loom being problematic, make the argument and have the discussion. What happened here was skipping due process.
I sincerely hope that this kneejerk tiering is not reflective of the future for this tier.
To address Ape, I’m not against a suspect in a vacuum with the mixed feelings on it. It just seems at an awkward timing when Cinder is being released back into the tier during the suspect. My thoughts on Ape itself aren’t really relevant to the fact that I find this suspect a dubious decision.
On the other hand, the Sleep quickbans went essentially without community input. Anyone will concede Yawn was a problem on Dirge, sure, whatever. But immediate Spore and Sleep Powder quickbans? The most community discussion that happened on either of these was a roompoll. All forms of sleep other than Yawn are absolutely not clean cut cases and to quickban them was ridiculous. If you want to make an argument for Viv/Pluff/Loom being problematic, make the argument and have the discussion. What happened here was skipping due process.
I sincerely hope that this kneejerk tiering is not reflective of the future for this tier.
Yuh, can we push back the suspect until we work out the deal with cinder cos idt anyone knows if that’s shit is still gonna be broken. I think the majority of people think annihilape is probably fine, and dirge being effectively neutered is gonna drop its usage quite a bit as there is more team flexibility to build around the mon.
Also can we stop QBing stuff now the meta has settled quite a bit. Nothing is that urgent to ban anymore and suspects allow for some nice old fashioned community interaction.
shoutouts to Abraham Lincoln for inspiring this post:
‘All men are created equal, the 1v1 council should stop making QB decisions with such little notice and discussion’ Abe like 1850 or something
Was arguing about sleep powder in 1v1cord but ill put this here because why not
The two sleep powder users do not rely on sleep turns for most of their matchups
Both Jumpluff and viv run sub + lefties + sleep powder, basically nullifying sleep turns, as even a turn one wake will just result in an attack into a substitute into a resleep(unless miss haha)
oh but encore/taunt users can get haxed by sleep turns waahh
Out of the viable encorers:skeledirge, valiant, ape, azu(stretch), donphan(stretch)
3 of them already win(dirge valiant ape), and while the other 2 can run encore, its far from mandatory that they do so
For viable taunt users(ting lu, corvi, great tusk), while they all can run taunt, specific sets are still walled(bpress corvi, bulk up taunt ) which leaves ting lu
other counterargument about the move being broken because haha tiering policy its the move thats the problem not the mon:
serene grace was uncompetitive last gen but you banned jirachi instead of serene grace(oh but iron head is a stab move /dt meteor mash)
(yes i know rachi could run encore spower but who cares nerd emoji also yall literally say its not based off t he mon
ok fine rachi sucks as an example but who cares im leaving it fuck you)
togekiss was also aids and even then serene grace stayed despite the fact that sg enables scarf/maranga kiss to be absolute hell
If you argue that sleep is uncompetitive no matter the mon but serene grace on kiss is fine idk man
both viv and toge rely on their stats/movepool to use sleep powder and sgrace as well as they do(viv relies on its decent speed and movepool, toge is obvious)
Both serene grace and sleep powder have examples of shitmons like chansey, venomoth, etc
if it isnt related to the mon then ban serene grace
and if it does depend on the mon then sleep powder is mostly competitive in practice so no real reason to ban it
also ape suspect w cindy coming back mid suspect is hella scuffed what the fuck push it back
The two sleep powder users do not rely on sleep turns for most of their matchups
Both Jumpluff and viv run sub + lefties + sleep powder, basically nullifying sleep turns, as even a turn one wake will just result in an attack into a substitute into a resleep(unless miss haha)
oh but encore/taunt users can get haxed by sleep turns waahh
Out of the viable encorers:skeledirge, valiant, ape, azu(stretch), donphan(stretch)
3 of them already win(dirge valiant ape), and while the other 2 can run encore, its far from mandatory that they do so
For viable taunt users(ting lu, corvi, great tusk), while they all can run taunt, specific sets are still walled(bpress corvi, bulk up taunt ) which leaves ting lu
other counterargument about the move being broken because haha tiering policy its the move thats the problem not the mon:
serene grace was uncompetitive last gen but you banned jirachi instead of serene grace(oh but iron head is a stab move /dt meteor mash)
(yes i know rachi could run encore spower but who cares nerd emoji also yall literally say its not based off t he mon
ok fine rachi sucks as an example but who cares im leaving it fuck you)
togekiss was also aids and even then serene grace stayed despite the fact that sg enables scarf/maranga kiss to be absolute hell
If you argue that sleep is uncompetitive no matter the mon but serene grace on kiss is fine idk man
both viv and toge rely on their stats/movepool to use sleep powder and sgrace as well as they do(viv relies on its decent speed and movepool, toge is obvious)
Both serene grace and sleep powder have examples of shitmons like chansey, venomoth, etc
if it isnt related to the mon then ban serene grace
and if it does depend on the mon then sleep powder is mostly competitive in practice so no real reason to ban it
also ape suspect w cindy coming back mid suspect is hella scuffed what the fuck push it back
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Solution: unban spore and sleep powder (oh no breloom and jumpluff is gonna terrorize the meta!!!) and wait for cinder to be dealt with, then suspect anhillape and then the sleep moves. Easy, and makes sense! Unfortunately the already broken clock that is 1v1 tiering has now lost its L and now is jerked off twice a day instead of being being right.
yep swag god (professional plant grower) will care about your opinion 100%
Council thinking annihilape is broken (c tier mon), putting mence, volcarona and ursaring in B+, putting iron valiant in A+ and banning all sleep moves before discussion just convinces me that we are playing 2 different video games, but moreso makes the community doubt the council's abilities, if they even have them.
I can understand what's happening with council, christmas is coming and they're too busy with irl stuff, but it seems weird to me to take quick action on a tier they don't even know yet, especially without community input.
Personally myself I would just wait until global cup starts to see how the meta is right now instead of rushing ahead when cinder is coming in a week, but I'm not the one to talk. Besides, when all hope is lost we'll always have swag god as our backup tier leader
tl;dr #swaggodForTierLeader
Council thinking annihilape is broken (c tier mon), putting mence, volcarona and ursaring in B+, putting iron valiant in A+ and banning all sleep moves before discussion just convinces me that we are playing 2 different video games, but moreso makes the community doubt the council's abilities, if they even have them.
I can understand what's happening with council, christmas is coming and they're too busy with irl stuff, but it seems weird to me to take quick action on a tier they don't even know yet, especially without community input.
Personally myself I would just wait until global cup starts to see how the meta is right now instead of rushing ahead when cinder is coming in a week, but I'm not the one to talk. Besides, when all hope is lost we'll always have swag god as our backup tier leader
tl;dr #swaggodForTierLeader
Haha reaction
ursa deserves its place in B+ haven’t used the others. Also valiant definitely had the potential to be one of the best it’s just taking a while to optimise given everything it can do.
I used my personal email and swag god stole my identity
Also add cinderace to the poll or wait till it gets released to do anything, it's clearly going to be the biggest point of contention for the tier in two weeks
ok lets start a quick discussion on cinderace:
This guy functionally beats every mon in the tier with 10+ sets like band, bu taunt, passho counter, scarf, specs, etc. etc. Consistent counterplay doesn't really exist, every mon conceivably loses to some cinder set, and with the annihilape suspect currently ongoing its making getting reqs an even more difficult chore. Our options as of right now are leave cinderace in the tier, suspect/qb cinderace after the annihilape suspect, qb cinder now, or qb cinder now and resuspect it after the annihilape suspect. I'm personally in favor of qb'ing cinder asap to reduce the amount of inconsistency and mu fishing on the suspect ladder, and just not resuspecting it later. I think cinder is a clear cut case of broken mon with no viable counterplay that doesn't leave a team with massive holes, especially in the current broken-check-broken meta we find ourselves in. The 1v1 council is interested in hearing the thoughts of the community before taking action, but as the ape suspect is nearing its close a fast decision is the best choice we have right now.
This guy functionally beats every mon in the tier with 10+ sets like band, bu taunt, passho counter, scarf, specs, etc. etc. Consistent counterplay doesn't really exist, every mon conceivably loses to some cinder set, and with the annihilape suspect currently ongoing its making getting reqs an even more difficult chore. Our options as of right now are leave cinderace in the tier, suspect/qb cinderace after the annihilape suspect, qb cinder now, or qb cinder now and resuspect it after the annihilape suspect. I'm personally in favor of qb'ing cinder asap to reduce the amount of inconsistency and mu fishing on the suspect ladder, and just not resuspecting it later. I think cinder is a clear cut case of broken mon with no viable counterplay that doesn't leave a team with massive holes, especially in the current broken-check-broken meta we find ourselves in. The 1v1 council is interested in hearing the thoughts of the community before taking action, but as the ape suspect is nearing its close a fast decision is the best choice we have right now.
I agree with frogfacts
Cinderace isn’t broken one bit. Just because he can run multiple sets doesn’t make him broken. He is not on chi-yu’s level, he is not on palafins level, and he is walled by plenty of mons in this current meta. I find it funny how we call him broken when he is just Meowscarada adjacent.
I feel like every time a strong Pokémon is being ya know (strong), we are quick to throw the word broken around.
without a doubt cinderace is strong but broken? Not at all and I will tell you why.
- Cinderace has good coverage but cannot run all of his moves. The popular sets are running court change. When means effectively he can only have two coverage moves outside of his PB and CC. Most will run u-turn for quick pivots or sucker punch for priority. Effectively leaving him with only three to four viable coverage options.
I should note that if some opts to not run CC then they can have more coverage but then cinderace become just a coverage Mon and loses its unique niche which makes it potent in our trap stack meta. Additionally in a hazard stacking meta if Cinderace is not running heavy duty boots and opting for a more choice band or bulk up/SD set, his glaring weakness to hazards become all to obvious. - There are way too many answers for him, regardless of sets.
- Libro nerf makes it a shell of its previously potent self
A few OU mons that check his most popular sets of choice band and heavy duty boots:
- Dondozo (best check in the meta)
- Defensive Toxapex (Depending on zen headbutt coverage
- Great Tusk (depending on zen headbutt coverage)
- Skeledirge
- Ceruledge (wins 1v1 more often that not)
- Chi-Yu Scarf man handles him
- Dragapult specs or band (depending on sucker punch coverage)
- Full rain teams that are popular now completely stuff him as well.
- Clodsire ( if you are not running zen headbutt, then this is pesky although is is usually a special wall)
- Choiceband Roaring Moon outspeeds at jolly and OHKOs with earthquake
- Popular bulky Dragonite with no attack investment handles Cinderace in 2 rounds
- Garchomp is self explanatory
Treats lower than OU and are valuable checks:
- Slowbro
- Choice band Azumarill AJ has a 69% chance to OHKO
- Rotom Wash (situational)
I don't know what are you talking about, but you are in 1v1 sub-forum... not OverUsed.
