Metagame Cross Evolution

Have you done the tiering survey?

  • Yes

    Votes: 7 87.5%
  • I'll do it later

    Votes: 1 12.5%

  • Total voters
    8
  • Poll closed .
[...] Be that as it may, Last Respects still warrants a ban. It’s fundamentally anti-competitive.
Thank you for this, I had not considered that part of this meta. This is a very good point. However, I do wonder if banning the Pokemon who gets it, rather than the move itself, is the correct call. If the rumours are true, and Basculegion gets it as well when it is released, that may be even more concerning to see with Adaptability.

If we were to consider banning moves, I would also mention Rage Fist at this time. An equally scary Ghost-type move that can hit absurdly hard if played correctly.

For both of these moves, I would consider that the Pokemon that give the move can still have good benefits outside of the move they provide. Houndstone is the only Pokemon in the game so far with the ability Fluffy, and one of the few with Sand Rush. Primeape seems like it will be an excellent base, and Annihilape, while not excellent, is one of two Pokemon that currently give the ghost type as a third-stage evolution.

Because of the power of these two moves, and a number of other moves introduced in this game, I do not know what the correct call would be. But as aleph noted:

[...] you can’t see if someone has a Houndstone crevo until it’s too late.
You can see if someone is using a Primeape base. You cannot see if Primeape or Annihilape is being used as an evolution. Should the moves be banned? Restricted to the base mons but banned from evolutions? This may set a new standard that hasn't been necessary in Cross Evolution, but we would definitely been having this conversation last generation if the fossils were evolved forms of something else.

TL;DR: If we determine a move to be broken, should we prevent a Pokemon from learning the move via evolution, or should we ban the evolution altogether?
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
TL;DR: If we determine a move to be broken, should we prevent a Pokemon from learning the move via evolution, or should we ban the evolution altogether?
We should just ban the move. This isn’t OU, we shouldn’t shy away from move/Ability bans. Hell, Baton Pass is one of the only things on the banlist right now.

As for Rage Fist, I can understand your concern. That move can get pretty crazy in OU and there’s talk of banning Annihilape there specifically because of how good it is with that, so I agree that extending that to any crevo (since both Primeape and Annihilape get it) might turn things funky. Considering that Annihilape receivers gain 45/20/20 defensive bulk and free STAB on the move, I can see some really gross stuff happening if you slap Annihilape on something really bulky (or even moderately bulky with recovery). It should probably go, but not with the urgency that Last Respects and Revival Blessing should—give it maybe a week of testing before coming to a decision.
 
As of yesterday, Gen 9 Cross Evolution has been playable on the main server as a challenge-only format! Tera is somewhat bugged at the moment, but the metagame is otherwise functional and playable. This also means I'm open to actively discussing tiering decisions, and I've at least determined a preliminary watchlist:

:Rabsca::Pawmot: Revival Blessing - watching a lot of STAB and AAA has generally convinced me that in a format where it's more or less unscoutable, Revival Blessing needs to go. I think UT summed up the issue with Revival Blessing pretty well. Cross Evolution replays featuring Revival Blessing can be found here and here.

:Houndstone: Houndstone/Last Respects - the ability to splash Last Respects on any stage 1 Pokemon is a fairly intimidating prospect to have to deal with. I'm not sure how genuinely oppressive it is especially given the greatly increased number of viable Normal-types running around that could immediately turn a Last Respects abuser into setup fodder, but even non-STAB and unboosted Last Respects is terrifying to face against at max BP without a resist or immunity.

:Sneasel: Sneasel - Sneasel and Breloom are both back in this gen, which means Beat Up is also back in business. Given the high Atk stats littering the meta, it's not hard to achieve a 300 BP (after STAB and Technician) Beat Up, which turns Sneasel into a near unstoppable KO machine after a single Swords Dance. Losing immediately because of a bad lead into Sneasel can't be healthy for the metagame as a whole, and there is plenty of precedent from past gens to support a Sneasel ban.

Other stuff like the Primeape line with Rage Fist and Gallade may also be worth looking at but I don't see them as oppressive as the aforementioned threats. Let me know your thoughts on this; regardless, I'm not going to make any decisions just yet.
 
Sneasel and Breloom are both back in this gen, which means Beat Up is also back in business. Given the high Atk stats littering the meta, it's not hard to achieve a 300 BP (after STAB and Technician) Beat Up, which turns Sneasel into a near unstoppable KO machine after a single Swords Dance. Losing immediately because of a bad lead into Sneasel can't be healthy for the metagame as a whole
Smellslikememe, that's exactly why I love Sneasel x breloom. Why think and use skill when you can go UNGA and embrace the unfairness causing the opponent to suffer emotional damage?? After all, its the opponents fault for not leading correctly.

But even as player with 0 IQ who mashes all day, I do admit its really dangerous and Im sure there will be support of a Sneasel ban (even without Kings Rock or Spore). Especially with CrossEvo in Houndstone. With Sneloom on point and Stage 1 X Hound on anchor, you have 2 amazing hammers that can go to town.

Image is way to large, using thumbnail instead.Credit to BuzzerZero on DeviantArt this is awesome.

leo_whitefang_gorilla_by_buzzerzero_defuzo7-fullview.jpeg
 
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alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
Skuntank (Tandemaus) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Stench
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Population Bomb
- Bullet Seed
- Crunch / Agility
- Super Fang

I feel like this should go.
 
Some things which i think are probably good or just neat:

Basically every Frosmoth evo tbh, ice scales isn't banned and it gives insane stats.
if you want pure offense, gastly has 180 spa, and while it's not exactly bulky, with ice scales it's not unreasonable to be able to find a turn to click qd.
misdreavus has 15 less spa and lacks a secondary typing, but is otherwise just better than gastly. 100/145 special bulk with ice scales is really good and probably lets you get free qds on a lot of special attackers.
for actually defensive frosmoth evos, i think the best options are girafarig/dunsparce. girafarig only has wish as recovery which isn't great, but it also has very solid offensive potential (170 spa/130 spe), while dunsparce has roost and 140/95/125 defensive stats, though it's worse offensively.
sandygast is also kinda potentially neat as a frosmoth evo that has recovery and actually has a non-garbage offensive type, but it's slow even after a qd and while 95/105/105 with ice scales isn't bad, it's much worse than dunsparce

Gholdengo is a very cool evo. it gives great stats, Steel/Ghost typing and a good ability. girafarig, stantler, and misdreavus all have really similar base stats and are all probably good as base mons. gastly does have 10 more spa than girafarig but is slower and loses a fair bit of bulk, so unless there's a specific calc that extra spa matters for idt it's worth using.
idt there are really any other mons worth using as evos since it totally replaces your typing and doesn't really need moves from whatever's evolving into it you can just use the highest stat mons. maybe a more defensive stat that has recovery and makes use of the great defensive typing and ability

Breloom (Shuppet) @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Mach Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance
It has 165 atk and dual stab tech priority.
unlike honedge hitmontop which did something similar in gen 8 though, it has meh defensive typing and paper thin defenses. swords dance is probably not good because if that, and something like eq is likely better. regardless, it has great offensive typing and 165 atk. it'll probably sweep some offensive teams

Espathra (Girafarig) @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lumina Crash
- Hyper Voice
- Calm Mind
- Protect
Lumina crash is a really good move and i want to click it.
no idea if this is good (if i had to guess i'd say it's not), but there's probably some cool girafarig espathra set that exists. stored power could be cool.
 
Right now we are still early in to this meta, so obviously offense will be a defining team structure. Let's look at some of those base mons that help this be possible:

The Stage 1 Fast Attackers :Scyther: :Sneasel:

These two Pokémon in particular move fast and hit hard. Having over 90 attack and over 100 speed, these two are really effective at hitting you hard where it hurts. Sneasel's Dark/Ice typing is always useful offensively. Scyther, meanwhile, is a good versatile Pokemon. It lost access to Roost this gen, but getting Close Combat and keeping U-Turn are always good tools to have. Both of these Pokemon are weak to rocks, but between Heavy Duty boots and the power of Tera-types, dealing with hazards have never been easier.

The New Normals :Dunsparce: :Girafarig: :Stantler:

These three normal types weren't able to evolve last generation, and as such have really good stats for Stage 1 Pokemon. All three of them have solid bulk, and close enough Attack and Special Attack stats that they could be used as a base for numerous evolutions. Girafarig and Stantler benefit from solid speed stats as well, making them very effective as sweepers or revenge killers. Dunsparce is bulkier, and has access to recovery in Roost, giving it more longevity.

The Bulky Attackers :Ursaring: :Primeape: :Bisharp:

Like the previous category, all of these Pokémon were considered fully evolved just a generation ago, and have the stats to show it. All of these Pokémon have high attack stats and reasonable bulk. Ursaring and Bisharp may be more on the slower side, but have more bulk to live up for it. Primeape has less bulk than the other two, but has more speed. Honorary mention to Vigoroth, who was never a fully evolved Pokémon, but also has similar stats to these three in terms of attack, speed, and reasonable bulk.

Assorted Special Attackers :Glimmet: :Misdreavus: :Magneton: :Haunter:

The final group that is easy to categorize. Misdreavus, Magneton, and Haunter have always been solid Special Attackers thanks to their stats and their movepools. Glimmet joins their ranks thanks to its 105 Special Attack, the highest of any Stage 1 Pokémon. So far the main downside of Glimmet is its Speed, but a good evolution can easily find a way to make this work. Magnemite and Gastly of course also find niches as solid stage 1 special attackers in previous generations, and will likely continue to do so now.


Let me know if there are any base forms of interest I missed. This was the closest to a deep-dive I have done so far for this meta, and a deep-dive into the evolutions may also be interesting to discuss (coming soon[?]).
 
Hello one and all! I would like to briefly go over the new mons in this generation that look very promising for this gen's Cross Evolution meta. I will be talking mostly about the new evolutions for this meta as the evolvers have already been talked about briefly. Sorted alphabetically (mostly). Please mention if I've missed or overlooked anything. Also be aware that this is coming from someone who is fairly new to Cross Evo as I'm not too experienced in the meta.

I will first talk about the best evolution newcomers this gen. I was also going to add the best evolution veterans as well but realized this is way too much for a single post so that will instead come at some other date. Some of the other Gen 9 mons I would've mentioned but are predicted to be banned soon so I didn't count them (ie Houndstone).

Best Evolution Newcomers of Gen 9 Cross Evolution

:sv/armarouge::sv/ceruledge:
+Flash Fire / +Weak Armor
Armarouge (+
): +45 HP / +10 Atk / +60 Def / +75 SpA / +40 SpD / +40 Spe
Ceruledge (+
): +35 HP / +75 Atk / +40 Def / +10 SpA / +60 SpD / +50 Spe

I decided to lump these two together considering they are counterparts and give almost the exact bonuses. This duo gives some very solid additions to any mons who wish to cross-evolve. They do compete for a spot somewhat with veteran returning mons Gallade and Gardevoir but they offer unique options and a more optimized statline to the bevvy of powerful Stage 1 Pokemon that have appeared in the meta. They both give great statboosts, Armarouge actually beating out Gardevoir in this regard, and Ceruledge against Gallade trading in less attack for much more speed, but they also give a very expansive movepool as well as two signature moves that are very powerful as either coverage options or excellent STABs.

That being said, as much as Armarouge seem to be some of the better Gen 9 evolutions, its still going to very hard to beat Gardevoir and Gallade in what they do. Gardevoir still gives a much better ability in Trace, while Gallade, although could have been a toss up in terms of stat boosts and typing, now also gives access to Sharpness, which simply makes it one of the best evolutions in the Gen right now.

:sv/clodsire:
+Poison Point / +Water Absorb / +Unaware
Clodsire: +75 HP / +30 Atk / +15 Def / +20 SpA / +75 SpD / +5 Spe

Clodsire, the defensive legend, one of the few mons currently in OU that are able to handle the current explosive threats of the tier. Although on first glance it may seem unassuming as it does not give any new useful defensive typings, it does however give mons excellent defensive attributes with both its abilities, its movepool, and its stats. It can turn a lot of Stage 1 Pokemon into defensive titans, with mons like Dunsparce, Mudbray and Qwilfish-Hisui in particular benefitting the most, and it gives these mons some very much missed moves like Toxic and Recover as well as Spikes. Defensive playstyle however very clearly struggles (I know this from Gen 8), so evolutions like Clodsire probably aren't going to be very common.

:sv/espathra:
+Opportunist / +Frisk / +Speed Boost
Espathra: +65 HP / +25 Atk / +30 Def / +56 SpA / +20 SpD / +30 Spe

Espathra seems like a promising evolution for a couple of reasons. It gives a very solid number of stats for special attackers to make use of, but the real cream of the crop here is Speed Boost which allows for sweepers to snowball very fast alongside their own boosts. Nasty Plot sweepers like Misdreavus in particular very much appreciate the speed boost, and Espathra also gives some very excellent HP as well which means that the sweepers it does support gets some much needed bulk to allow them more setup opportunities.

:sv/gholdengo:
+Good as Gold
Gholdengo (+
):
+42 HP / +30 Atk / +25 Def / +58 SpA / +21 SpD / +74 Spe

Gholdengo, probably the best offensive special attacking evolution this gen. It gives crazy stats, an excellent ability, an excellent typing, a very good movepool with an excellent STAB signature, and a lot of the current Stage 1s benefit from it. I honestly don't think much more needs to be said, this is a very stellar edition to Cross Evo.

:sv/grafaiai:
+Unburden / +Poison Touch / +Prankster
Grafaiai: +23 HP / +30 Atk / +30 Def / +40 SpA / +37 SpD / +35 Spe

Honestly, Grafaiai doesn't seem that good at first glance, and yes it some ways it does seem underwhelming when compared to the other insane mons introduced this gen, but it has one defining attribute that in my opinion makes it a very worthwhile edition to a team, and that is Prankster. Offense is king in this gen, and a lot of mons have access to a lot of set up options and a lot of very strong attacks (with good stats) to make use of. This results in Hyper Offense being the best playstyle by far, and Prankster enables a lot of strategies to make use of. The best that I found was Toedscool + Grafaiai to make use of Dual Screens. Grafaiai also has some essential utility that a mon like Grimmsnarl doesn't have, like Knock Off and U-turn (the latter being particularly relevant over Parting Shot due to Gholdengo).

:sv/lokix:
+Swarm / +Tinted Lens
Lokix (+
):
+38 HP / +56 Atk / +38 Def / +31 SpA / +30 SpD / +47 Spe

Lokix looks to be a very promising evolution in this meta due to its excellent stat boosts, its added Dark-typing, and its strong ability in Tinted Lens. Lokix gives some very nice priority moves like Sucker Punch and First Impression which also means that Scyther is probably the best beneficiary here. Lokix I see as being one of the better evolutions if you're looking for a good revengekiller, as set up sweepers are for sure going to be running rampant in the meta.

1671476131360.png

+Chlorophyll / +Hustle / +Leaf Guard
Lilligant-Hisui (+
):
+25 HP / +70 Atk / +25 Def / -20 SpA / +25 SpD / +70 Spe

Lilligant-Hisui is probably the best offensive physical attacking newcomer evolution this gen. I say this for a few reasons. It gives absolutely bonkers stats with +70 to both attack and speed, it gives the great Fighting-type alongside excellent STABs in Close Combat, but the real cherry on top that completes this mon is Victory Dance. Victory Dance is the physical version of Quiver Dance and just by that description alone you could probably already tell just how broken this move will be. Just a few uses of Victory Dance will basically make a mon unstoppable and a lot of strong Stage 1 Pokemon this gen will very much benefit from a set up move like this.

:sv/meowscarada:
+Overgrow / +Protean
Meowscarada (+
):
+15 HP / +30 Atk / +7 Def / +21 SpA / +7 SpD / +40 Spe

Meowscarada is purely on this list due to Protean. I know about Protean's nerf and it does hurt the mons that would've benefitted from an ability like this, but I still think that Protean will potentially find a place in this meta due to Scarf. Scarf Greninja was very much a popular and viable set in Gen 7 and even in Natdex, so I see Meowscarada doing something similar since it also has access to Spikes and a decent amount of coverage options. This unique set of utility is probably still not going to be as good as the other evolutions this gen who simply have an overwhelming power and force, but I still think it's worthy of mentioning.
 
Correction on a couple of points in the above post:

1671551614102.png

Gholdengo (+
)
Gholdengo's type has been corrected. While this was what the early Gholdengo displayed as, it now changes any Pokemon's typing to Steel/Ghost as an evolution.

1671551603747.png

Lilligant-Hisui
Hisuian Lilligant definitely looks like an offensive threat... but it isn't in the game yet. Once Home compatibility is announced this will likely be subject to change, but at the moment, as far as we are concerned, this evolution is not useable.

Otherwise, very thorough analysis of some new evolutions. These are definitely some of the strongest offensive evolutions at this point in the meta. I would like to use this opportunity to add one more evolution of interest: Kilowattrel.

:Kilowattrel:
+Wind Power / +Volt Absorb / +Competitive
+30 HP / +30 Atk / +25 Def / +50 SpA / +20 SpD / +55 Spe


Competitive is a great ability in a metagame full of Gyarados evolutions using Intimidate. Kilowattrel is by far the best Second-stage evolution with the ability (the other two being Jigglypuff and Gothorita, RIP Milotic). For a special sweeper, these are really solid stats in terms of both Special Attack and Speed. It may not be as strong as Armarouge, or as fast as Gholdengo, but it definitely has other tools that make it useful, including a fast U-Turn, recovery in Roost, and strong special moves like Thunder and Hurricane. While maybe not as easy to throw onto a team as some of the other evolutions in the above post, this definitely isn't one to overlook.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
Gholdengo's type has been corrected. While this was what the early Gholdengo displayed as, it now changes any Pokemon's typing to Steel/Ghost as an evolution.
Which, as I’d like to point out, can effectively make any Stage 1 Pokémon into some version of Gholdengo. Girafarig? Oh, you mean Fast Gholdengo. Gastly? That’s Nuke Gholdengo. Sandygast? Physically Bulky Gholdengo. Spoink? Specially Bulky Gholdengo. Scyther? Nah fam, you’re looking at Fuck You Gholdengo. There’s a Gholdengo for every team archetype and all of them block hazard removal unless you’re crossing into Maushold or Cinderace (coming soon!). I think it might end up being pretty oppressive, so we might need to take a look at it.
 
They do compete for a spot somewhat with veteran returning mons Gallade and Gardevoir
"Somewhat" because the choice also depends on whether you're cross evolving a first or a second stage evolution?
Gholdengo's type has been corrected. While this was what the early Gholdengo displayed as, it now changes any Pokemon's typing to Steel/Ghost as an evolution.
Maybe this should be treated as changing the primary type to steel (Gimmighoul Ghost/Ghost → Gholdengo Steel/Ghost), in the same way that Bellossom counts as changing your secondary type to Grass (Gloom Grass/Poison → Bellossom Grass/Grass)?
 
Maybe this should be treated as changing the primary type to steel (Gimmighoul Ghost/Ghost → Gholdengo Steel/Ghost), in the same way that Bellossom counts as changing your secondary type to Grass (Gloom Grass/Poison → Bellossom Grass/Grass)?
This is a strange case, but this isn't the first cross-evolved Pokemon to change both types upon evolutions. The Galarian Slow-twins, going from a pure Psychic Type Slowpoke to a Poison/Psychic typing when evolved, also provided this same effect.

Now, the reason for this interaction may seem strange, but clearly this has become relevant in terms of how these types of evolutions are handled by the game for this meta. I will differ to the experts to clarify how/why the code works as it does, as I could probably list off a half dozen theories as to why this is the case and not be anywhere close to the correct answer. Regardless, based on Generation 8 Cross Evolution, it seems Bellossom is the exception, not the rule, in terms of how type-changes are applied.
 
:primeape: x :garganacl: (click for set)
105 / 145 / 90 / 70 / 95 / 95 | 600

While it's bst and stat distribution definitely appear underwhelming by cross evolution standards, the combination of purifying salt, surprisingly good special defence when fully invested, access to set up moves such as bulk up and iron defence and most importantly rage fist turn Apeanacl into a surprisingly tough to kill breaker of all things fat. It isn't broken - it can get muscled through by strong special attackers and the likes of gallade x bisharp's sacred sword will chunk it through boosts - but if it can come in on a ghost type, with screens up or against something fairly passive that relies on status to be annoying, this pokemon can 6-0 no questions asked.

:Houndstone:
(+) 22 / 40 / 40 / 20 / 42 / 34

Houndstone as an evo seems pretty insane to me - a good stat spread providing immense bulk to anyone lucky enough to inherit it combined with two solid abilities, will-o-wisp and last respect make it a very scary pokemon. This is exasperated by the fact that Mudbray x Hippowdon is pretty good in its own right and provides sand, giving Scyther (Houndstone's best inheritor imo) a disgusting speed stat of 754 with 252 speed EVs and a neutral nature. Look it's clearly broken, especially on scyther who has a scary combination of stab u turn and access to close combat to chunk common last respects switchins in giraf and dunsparce for mega damage. Abuse it while you can because i reckon it's banned the second this gets a ladder
 
Tsareena (Primeape) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Queenly Majesty
EVS: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge / Earthquake / Ice Punch
- Gunk Shot / Ice Punch / Rapid Spin
- U-Turn

Stats: 85/185/110/70/120/105

An excellent revenge killer and genuinely think the combination of Primeape x Tsareena will be one of Hyper offense' staple sets for soft-checking priority spammers and the monstrosities that are Bisharp/Ursaring/Sneasel etc, heck it's even good on the bulky offense team that I've made too.


Base 185 damage is quite amazing and coupled with a base 105 speed tier makes it a pretty good scarf abuser too, decent enough overall bulk in 85/110/120 with an ability that gives it an immunity to all form of priority attacks makes this combination hard to overlook (or at least in my opinion). This little piece of saving grace has came through for me quite a bit and forced some mind games here and there too on main server.

Dragonite (Ursaring) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
EVS: 252HP / 252 ATK / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake / Hammer Arm / Rock Slide
- Ice Punch / Roost / Rock Slide

Stats: 120/180/105/105/105/65

Thank God Ursaring is slow and suffers from major moveslot syndrome. That is all lol.

Hydreigon (Bisharp) @ Chople Berry / Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVS: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Iron Head
- Play Rough
- Sucker Punch

Stats: 85/145/120/120/90/110

This might seem weird to bring up, especially with other options in the likes of Salamence, Gallade, Dragapult etc as stage 3 donors, however I think the combination of Bisharp x Hydreigon sets itself apart because Hydreigon as a donor allows Bisharp to maintain its great defensive steel typing and simultaneously turning a weakness into an immunity as well. I haven't gotten around to testing this setup honestly, but it seems promising nonetheless.

That's all I have for now. Just giving out potential sets for the VR.


Edit: Whenever I try to cross evolve anything with Vivillon a message appears that says"Magneton (or any NFE) cannot cross evolve into Vivillon because it isn't an evolution." Is that intentional?
 
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alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
I’d like to bring one last Bisharp thing to everyone’s attention:

Tinkaton (Bisharp) @ Choice Band
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Gigaton Hammer
- Knock Off
- Brick Break
- Sucker Punch

Banded Gigaton Hammer might sound counterintuitive since you’re required to switch out after using it, but it’s a guaranteed OHKO on basically anything that doesn’t resist it—and, with proper hazard support and Tera Steel, also most things that do. Your only real problem after clicking Gigaton is that a Magnet Pull user might come in after you turn your opponent into paste, in which case you’ll be helpless for a turn, so make sure you’ve carefully scouted for that—in a meta where Bisharp is king, Magnet Pull could be anywhere. Knock Off is of course as good as it’s always been, Brick Break is mandatory until Grimmsnarl as an evo gets banned, and Sucker Punch is Sucker Punch. Tinkaton Bisharp lands in the awkward “too slow for normal gameplay, too fast for Trick Room” Speed tier and isn’t as bulky as it’d like to be, but it preys heavily on slower, fatter teams.

Also, re: Tera, I heard that there were some bugs with it in this meta. Have those been fixed? If not, is there a timetable for fixing it? Or should we just ban it and make things easier on ourselves? I feel like this is already going to be a heavily offensive meta with or without the mechanic, but Tera pushes a lot of things over the edge and would require a lot of bans if we want to preserve it and keep the meta sort of balanced.
 
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This is a strange case, but this isn't the first cross-evolved Pokemon to change both types upon evolutions. The Galarian Slow-twins, going from a pure Psychic Type Slowpoke to a Poison/Psychic typing when evolved, also provided this same effect.

Now, the reason for this interaction may seem strange, but clearly this has become relevant in terms of how these types of evolutions are handled by the game for this meta. I will differ to the experts to clarify how/why the code works as it does, as I could probably list off a half dozen theories as to why this is the case and not be anywhere close to the correct answer. Regardless, based on Generation 8 Cross Evolution, it seems Bellossom is the exception, not the rule, in terms of how type-changes are applied.
The game data for a pure type is actually the same type twice. (Although, this would mean that an Eeveelution changes you into a monotype.) I know Mix and Mega decided to switch away from the game data model, which would then make a Bellossom cross evolution lose its secondary type. (I can't remember where the old thread is otherwise I would check to see if anyone made any decisions on the mechanics when the DLC dropped.)
 
I want to talk about the existence of the type changes as shown in Gen 9 that I think are particularly relevant. Specifically, about the way type changes are handled, which I find a bit baffling to say the least and don't really make much sense given both the intention of the meta.

Cross Evolution is a meta that asks the question "what would happen if you were to cross evolve a Pokemon into another". You take a certain Pokemon from a certain stage and then evolve it onto a stage above, but with a different Pokemon, essentially making it evolve into a different Pokemon, a "cross evolution". Looking at the examples given previously in the thread, both with Gen 9 Gimmighoul>Gholdengo as well as Slowpoke-Galar>Slowbro-Galar/Slowking-Galar, what happens is that the primary type from a Stage 1 Pokemon is added upon evolving into a Stage 2. The important thing to note here is the fact that this typing is added to the Pokemon.

The biggest question mark I have with the way that the typing changes work is that upon cross-evolving, the new Pokemon evolved becomes a completely new type, regardless of what their previous types originally were. This doesn't really make much sense to me consider what exactly happens when you cross evolve.

Again, cross evolution involves taking a Pokemon from a certain stage and evolving it onto a stage above. The stats, typing, and ability changes granted by an evolution are determined by their respective changes from their prevo. In short, when Slowpoke-Galar evolves into Slowbro-Galar, it's typing adds the Poison-type to the primary type. I'm confused as to why changing the primary type suddenly completely changes the typing while the secondary type simply adds the typing, when in both scenarios they are functionally doing the same thing.
 
I'm confused as to why changing the primary type suddenly completely changes the typing while the secondary type simply adds the typing, when in both scenarios they are functionally doing the same thing.
With regard to typing/stat changes, cross evo simply applies the changes that happen in the actual evolution; Slowpoke-Galar goes from Psychic/X to Poison/Psychic, so its primary type changes from Psychic to Poison and secondary changes from nothing (ignoring how it's represented in the code) to Psychic, so Slowbro-Galar cross evos have a primary type that changes to Poison and a secondary type that changes to Psychic. Charmeleon on the other hand has no change in primary type and a change to Flying in secondary type when it evolves in Charizard, so Charizard cross evos have no change in primary type and have a secondary type that changes to Flying.

I do agree that it's inconsistent with regard to what additions come from the change between evolution and what additions are simply what the evolution has. For example, Wartortle evolving into Blastoise has zero change in abilities or typing, and yet cross evos into Blastoise gain Blastoise's abilities but not Blastoise's type. It doesn't really make sense to me to give the abilities of the evolution to the cross evo if they didn't change, so for example if you cross evolved Charmeleon into Blastoise, it's more consistent to have Blaze and Solar Power as its abilities rather than Torrent and Rain Dish
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
I do agree that it's inconsistent with regard to what additions come from the change between evolution and what additions are simply what the evolution has. For example, Wartortle evolving into Blastoise has zero change in abilities or typing, and yet cross evos into Blastoise gain Blastoise's abilities but not Blastoise's type. It doesn't really make sense to me to give the abilities of the evolution to the cross evo if they didn't change, so for example if you cross evolved Charmeleon into Blastoise, it's more consistent to have Blaze and Solar Power as its abilities rather than Torrent and Rain Dish
Inconsistent as it may be, it’s how the meta’s always been. Changing it that radically now would go against six and a half years of precedent.
 
If I'm being completely honest, whether its inconsistent or not is very much of no concern to me, and unless it does something that shakes up the meta in a big way I don't really think that inconsistencies are a problem in the way that its a bad thing. What I am most concerned about is how the meta develops in a way that first and foremost prioritizes fun and diversity. The way in which the cross evolutions work, which I'm specifically talking about in regards to change in primary types, is not exactly something that promotes this. It has already been mentioned previously that Gholdengo's evolution just turns every single Stage 1 into some sort of Gholdengo since they all become Steel/Ghost, which does not seem all that fun or helps promote a diverse meta, especially since Gholdengo is such a strong evolution that a lot of Stage 1s benefit from and a lot of Stage 1s will use. I think that trying to switch away from the game data model, as mentioned by urkerab, is something very much worth considering.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
If I'm being completely honest, whether its inconsistent or not is very much of no concern to me, and unless it does something that shakes up the meta in a big way I don't really think that inconsistencies are a problem in the way that its a bad thing. What I am most concerned about is how the meta develops in a way that first and foremost prioritizes fun and diversity. The way in which the cross evolutions work, which I'm specifically talking about in regards to change in primary types, is not exactly something that promotes this. It has already been mentioned previously that Gholdengo's evolution just turns every single Stage 1 into some sort of Gholdengo since they all become Steel/Ghost, which does not seem all that fun or helps promote a diverse meta, especially since Gholdengo is such a strong evolution that a lot of Stage 1s benefit from and a lot of Stage 1s will use. I think that trying to switch away from the game data model, as mentioned by urkerab, is something very much worth considering.
Nah, I say just ban Gholdengo as a crevo instead of overhauling the entire meta. It’ll get banned eventually either way, so making that move now would just be a bunch of extra work with nothing to show for it.
 
Nah, I say just ban Gholdengo as a crevo instead of overhauling the entire meta. It’ll get banned eventually either way, so making that move now would just be a bunch of extra work with nothing to show for it.
In this context since we're talking about Gholdengo specifically, I say fair enough. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't be so focused on trying to follow game data when there could be other alternatives that could make the overall meta much more fun. I'm not entirely sure if there are other scenarios where a Pokemon gets an addition to their primary type, but when the Slow-Galar twins gets released sometime in the future I don't want all my cross evolutions to just be more of Slowbro-Galar and Slowking-Galar 2.

Also, just so that the thread isn't cluttered by this discussion, here are some cool sets I found.

:ss/scyther: -> :ss/ceruledge:

Stats: 105 / 185 / 120 / 65 / 140 / 155
Ceruledge (Scyther) @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bitter Blade
- X-Scissor
- Shadow Claw

A very powerful cross evolution that also happens to be a decent check to another mon posted in this sub, Primeape + Tsareena. Bug/Ghost is surpisingly good offensively and alongisde Bitter Blade you get near perfect coverage alongside healing and pretty respectable STABs. This combo is no slouch defensively either, thanks to Flash Fire, and it's got great bulk to allow for a lot of set up opportunities.

:ss/girafarig: -> :ss/noivern:

Stats: 115 / 120 / 110 / 142 / 105 / 153
Noivern (Girafarig) @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Nasty Plot / Heat Wave
- U-turn

An underrated Pokemon combo in my opinion that is based off of a very simple concept: STAB Boomburst. Hyper Offense is going to run wild in the meta and you know what this means: Lots of Prankster Dual Screens and a whole lot of strong set up sweepers. Cyclizar is also excellent with its ability to pass along Substitutes for its teammates to make use of. Boomburst bypasses Substitute, and Infiltrator bypasses Screens. It is THE anti Hyper Offense mon, Girafarig being the strongest special attacking Stage 1 Normal-type for this exact role. Tera Normal with this mon goes nutty. Choice Specs for more immediate damage, Life Orb if you wanna use Nasty Plot.

:ss/vigoroth: -> :ss/gallade:

Stats: 110 / 170 / 110 / 55 / 115 / 120
Gallade (Vigoroth) @ Choice Band
Ability: Sharpness
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Slash
- Sacred Sword
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge

Yeah uhh, Sharpness on Gallade makes it an even better evolution than any meta of cross evolution before, and it was already one of the best evolutions by far. Very straightforward mon, it hits very very hard and there's no other Stage 2 that makes better use of Gallade's attributes than Vigoroth (atleast, as far as I can tell).
 
Ursaring is a tad bit too slow to be usable as a good Gallade fusion, Dragonite is a much better evolution for it, Vigoroth's speed is much needed here. As for Bisharp, yeah I completely forgot about Bisharp. I don't know why but I was thinking Bisharp's cross evolve with Gallade would result in a mon with less than 100 speed so I dismissed it. I just checked, apparently not.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
Ursaring is a tad bit too slow to be usable as a good Gallade fusion,
It’s got the highest base Attack of any Pokémon in the entire meta (besides Gyarados-Scyther, which probably won’t stay legal this gen), Sharpness-boosted STAB Sacred Sword, and more special bulk than Arceus. I feel like it’ll have some sort of use.
 

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