Oh God, not another Wobbuffet discussion!

LOL I thought of something evil. Banded U-Turn starters + Pursuit Spiritomb = GG Wobb.
 
I think you are takign the definition of "counter" a bit too far. Yes, no one pokemon can counter every single one of another pokemon's movesets. But, like I said, those are generally very effective counters. And I haven't seen a CBChomp or a ChainChomp in ages.

My point is, NOTHING can counter ANY of Wobby's sets all of the time because these things can't switch in...And the Wobby trainer would switch out the Wobby when one of these pokes do show up, to a counter for them.

Tell me how Weezing does not always counter Gyara. And the Spitimomb-Lucario argument is very theory based. Why would you be SDing with Lucario if I have out an Infernape? Or anything that is faster...A Gengar? You would honestly SD if you were facing a Gengar? Or Cress? Or Weezing? Theorymon is "fun and exciting" *sarcasm* but it is endless because I can twist my sets as easily as you can narrow your definitions and twist your sets...


EDIT: Also, if your Chomp does damage Cress that much with Outrage, I switch to Heatran and burn you...unless you end the outrage, at which point I would Sub in anticipation of you switching out.
 
OK Hitit4three, what you are doing now is playing theorymon.

I never started playing theorymon. The entire premise behind giving a counter is assuming that it is switching in, is it not?

What you are doing is giving me battle scenarios...essentially proving my initial point, that using the counters argument is nonsense because in a battle you have various options. Do you see that?

A counter's definition is something that can repeatedly switch in and pose immediate harm, and have to switch out. Say what you want about how far I am taking it, but that is the definition of a counter, like it or not.

Also, by initiating the counters argument, you are absolutely assuming the premise that your counter is switching in...otherwise you are in fact playing theorymon.

So again, I ask, what single counter is there to Lucario, Salamence and Garchomp? Remember, it must switch in, meaning it is assumed you aren't going to be keeping your current Pokemon out. That is the entire point of a counter.
 
For someone who said "Theorymon is "fun and exciting" *sarcasm* but it is endless because I can twist my sets as easily as you can narrow your definitions and twist your sets..." you sure used alot of "theorymon" in that post there hitit4three. You obviously do not understand how counters work and it's apparent that you lack experience in competetive battling, so there really is no point for you to continue your moot and nonsense points in this thread.

As for the actual discussion, I really don't have anything to say that hasn't already been said. After playing this game for more than 3 years, metagame shifts have always played important roles in what is standerd. Certains months of year are dominated by a certain pokemon and its counters, and other months the metagame shifts towrds a new style of gameplay or new set which creates the circle of metagames. By adding Wobbeffet to the metagame, another shift will occur and the whole cycle will just simple repeat itself. However until that happens, this discussion will lead to nothing but arguing. (see above)
 
Lou Cypher said:
Pokemon, serious business.



Honestly, some people need to realize that Pokemon is just a pasttime. Its not like its your life or anything. So Wobbuffet is unbanned, big whoop. Go whine about it on a messageboard.

Pokemon is a fun game and yes, we're trying to be competive here, but might it not be healthy to try and not let it overtake our lives?
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God damn, I seriously hate people with this "Elitist at Life" attitude. Shut up. This a damn site dedicated to doing MATH CALCULATIONS and finding the most optimal strategies while developing the most engaging metagame possible for Pokemon because the designers of the game lack the ability to balance their own shit. Yeah, who the fuck knows why people would worry about tiers....

Football is just a pass time too. As is basketball, baseball, chess, poker, and other video games like Halo. BUT GOD DAMN THEY HAVE COMPETITIVE FOLLOWINGS. Thats the weird things about humans (specifically males), we love to find something we "like" and just break it and take it to crazy levels of competitiveness. Fighting games have this happen all the time because they have incredibly active competitive communities. Pokemon is no different.

"So Wobbuffet is unbanned, big whoop." Big whoop? A change in the tiers has the potential to destroy all the balance we currently have. We have every right to be concerned with the change. If you don't want to hear people discuss it, leave the goddamn forums dedicated to it.
 
The point I was making was that I was using theorymon, the same way that Aldaron was...Once again, I would say that Spiritomb is a counter to Lucario...if you are that worried about accuracy for WoW give it Wide Lens lol.

The point you keep missing is that these pokes can switch in at leats once, where as nothing can switch into Wobby. It has no partial counters, where evrything else has at least soem sort of 1 or 2 time counter.
 
Ahahaha, just for kicks I've been running the dumbest team that I threw together in about 2 minutes on Shoddy. Its god damn hilarious.

Lead:
Crobat
-X-scissor
-Aeriel Ace
-Hynposis
-U-turn

Anti Wobb leader. Sleep and U-turn away.

Normal Wobb from analysis
Adamant Vire (Tpunch over Tbolt), otherwise from analysis
BellyDrumZard
BulkyDos

Umbreon
-Toxic
-Mean Look
-Baton Pass
-Wish


This shit is so funny. The only time I come close to losing is random lolcrits from super effective moves against Wobby, and even then I've pulled off some victories. Encore lets me set up Zard or Dos, electric attacks against them let me set up Vire, and Umbreon just heals everyone.

So god damn funny. I've had so many people disconnect already.... I can't stop laughing. It seriously should take more then 2 minutes to make a good team. Fucking Wobbufett, you're so silly!
 
Ah Lord Alchemy, I was kind of anticipating a response like that.

I think you're shooting a bit too far. I don't like the idea of Wobbuffet being unbanned but I see no point in whining about it. I've seen a few posts about people whining that they might lose some of their precious Ladder points. O NOEZ, MY DIGITAL POKE-PENIS JUST SHRUNK!. That kind of attitude. Or like the post I quoted. Some people take it WAY too far. As do you, evidently.

Pokemon is a fun game and its fun to be good at, but why would you get all overreacting if at a part you dont HAVE to play, something is allowed for a while that you don't like.

You mentionned how I don't want to hear people discussing it. Wrongo. I like the discussion and both sides of the argument. I like the sensible arguments people post for or against Wobbuffet. What I don't like are the people who go semi-emo over it and threaten with a boycot of Shoddybattle.

For the sake of being on-topic: The simple reasoning which makes me not liking Wobbuffet in OU has been said before, the cheapness of it. But alas, I'll just work around him.
 
Lou Cypher said:
I've seen a few posts about people whining that they might lose some of their precious Ladder points. O NOEZ, MY DIGITAL POKE-PENIS JUST SHRUNK!.
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Just posting to say my E-penis size increased once I started using it, that it's almost as fun to use as a Yanmega (at least to me), and that it becomes a HUGE dead weight once it kills something with Counter+Mirror Coat.

And that being threatened by a friggin' Butterfree lead is hilarious.
 
Mario with Lasers said:
Just posting to say my E-penis size increased once I started using it, that it's almost as fun to use as a Yanmega (at least to me), and that it becomes a HUGE dead weight once it kills something with Counter+Mirror Coat.

And that being threatened by a friggin' Butterfree lead is hilarious.
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Pffft, thats what Wish support is for! You can Counter+Mirror Coat shit, and get healed back up and the lols continue. Or just use him for free set ups. Its god damn funny to see how many people Sub+Leech Seed+Stat up in front of Wobbufett. WTF mate? You want to let my Dos come in, Taunt you while you're stuck subbing, and get two DDs up and sweep you? OK!

Oh yeah, and if that only gets like 2-3 pokes then Ill just come in and Mirror Coat + Counter. lalawlalololol.
 
Lord Alchemy said:
Pffft, thats what Wish support is for! Yeah, I have a Wish Jirachi in my team, but it's hard for it to pass the Wishes. You can Counter+Mirror Coat shit, and get healed back up and the lols continue. Not that easy, though Or just use him for free set ups. Its god damn funny to see how many people Sub+Leech Seed+Stat up in front of Wobbufett. WTF mate? You want to let my Dos come in, Taunt you while you're stuck subbing, and get two DDs up and sweep you? OK! Huh. First, Gyara will need to break the Sub. Second, if it has Leech Seed, then it's either a Ludicolo (probably carrying HP Electric?), a Sceptile (his only stat-up is SD, and I believe they learn Thunderpunch, or at least they can use Leaf Blade), and Roserade (LEAF STORM; or even Sleep Powder). It's not like ANY normal person will leave home without a Gyara counter; once you big serpent pops up, its counters will appear and you are back to the beginning.

Oh yeah, and if that only gets like 2-3 pokes then Ill just come in and Mirror Coat + Counter. lalawlalololol. Watch out for Spore Breloom, though.
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Lee said:
How is it progress to introduce a Pokemon who drags the game back into the Stone Age? Seriously, there's no skill in Wobbufet. There's no sense of achievement. Both players just pick a move and cross their fingers.

I accept the want for testing, and it isn't bothering me THAT much. My standard team does have 4 Choice users though, and it's getting moderately annoying for the opponent to have constant free revenge kills, but...sure, we all love a good test.

As the analysis says, no self respecting player would use him though, so that should be considered when the weighted usage is looked at. Most the successful players have enough experience/dignity to avoid him, and it'll most likely be unexperienced players who use him.
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My post has nothing to do with Wobbuffet and his tier status, it has to do with the reasoning behind keeping Wobbuffet Uber(If it ain't broke don't fix it...). Just because something's not wrong, doesn't mean it's right, and if people didn't try to fix things that weren't broken, there would never be progress in this world.
 
My post has nothing to do with Wobbuffet and his tier status, it has to do with the reasoning behind keeping Wobbuffet Uber(If it ain't broke don't fix it...). Just because something's not wrong, doesn't mean it's right, and if people didn't try to fix things that weren't broken, there would never be progress in this world.
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My primary argument is again how Colin decided to go about testing Wobbuffet. It is clear from this thread that Wobbuffet is not a popular pokemon and that there is a good number of people who want to keep him banned.

Colin however throws Wobbuffet into the Ladder because of a few people he won't even reveal the names of. Yeah yeah, don't wanna misrepresent them and all, but really, this sort of thing requires a beta test before throwing it into Ladders. If there was even an excuse of a test that was done, I wouldn't be here arguing. All we have are a couple of people Colin doesn't want to name. Hell, we don't even have a poll on this subject, or a discussion.

I do have something to say to the whiners out there: Colin did make Shoddybattle open source. You are welcome to start your own server. I personally don't believe this situation deserves a fork of this community, but if a group of people wish to put money where their mouth is, go ahead and make your own server, or wait for Competitor to come out.

You do raise a legitimate concern, however. The ladder should not be a continual testing ground, or it is not a constant competitive environment. However, Wobbuffet is the last pokemon we plan to test on the ladder in the near future, so you don't need to worry about the ladder becoming nothing but a testing ground for possibly standard "ubers".
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Of course I don't. It already has become one.
 
Dragontamer, seriously, calm down. There was a lot of discussion on the matter on the server, and my post described the results of me testing it. We would have done another tournament had the last one not had such horrible attendance and been written off by everyone who didn't want Deoxys-e in standard anyway. This was really the only way anything was ever going to get done in reversing the very questionable ban on Wobbuffet.
 
I've honestly had little problem with Wobbufett, most of the time it just gets Sleep Powder'd and switches out.
 
Well, I've been using wobby for two days and this is what I have to say:

You cant just but on him a team, he needs support from other members. He hates passive damage so you need a rapid spinner, and then sometimes a wisher, and then you need something to set up, and a dugtrio.
So, a team with wobbufect looks like this: Wobbufect, Dugtrio, Tentacruel, Jirachi, Filler, Filler.
Anyways, on to the good. It can take out many threats, and Wobbufect can help one of your pokes set up, and wobbufect+dugtrio is one hell of a combo.
 
I faced Wobbuffet for the first time on the Shoddy ladder tonight, and I had troubles with it. Saying that it can be beaten by Tyranitar and such is all fine and dandy, but what happens when it comes in on Blissey? I knew my opponent had Garchomp, so I didn't want Thunder Wave to be Encored. Instead, I used Seismic Toss, which sucked when they had a Driflbim hidden in the last slot, which Baton Passed for the win. Oh well.
 
I've faced 3 Wobbuffets today...only 1 time did it do anything(revenge killed a Dugtrio, but took a pretty big hit in the process).

The other 2 times it didn't even get a kill.
 
Then you played against idiots, Wobby's job isn't to kill things, it's to set up things that can. Unfortunately not every player is smart enough to exploit this.
 
I can go on forever with this, but I won't. Because I said it a million times, whether it's here, Gamefaqs, people I know, I'm fucking tired of it. I can go on forever listing why is he unbalanced, but fuck it, I'm not going to say it again.

Everything has a counter, Double Team has weakness, but it doesn't mean it's balanced. Ho-oh is 4x weak to SR and Stone Edge, but it doesn't mean it's balanced. Wobbuffet has a "counter", unlike the above 2, I can't even call it that since you can't switch into it, there is solutions, but on the other hand, how is it going to change the game preparing teams, with KNOWING there might be Wobb running around.

I went back to Shoddy and tested it for a bit, I don't really know what I was doing, so I lost most of the matches. But everyone that I faced at least lost 1 guy because of it. Whether it is Counter, Mirror Coat, switch baited, it will cause them to scramble and look for a solution. They might find it, but when that happens, they might have lost the guy already. Wobbuffet can also seek out non-Seismic Toss Blissey, set up safeguard and seal their doom with Bellyzard. This is just an example, I'm sure he is not all that amazing.

But think about it people, if someone has to think about THAT much and putting shitty moves, shitty holds that will hinder a battle against other teams other than Wobb, then fuck him, the game doesn't need this bull.

In short: Wobbuffet is more trouble than its worth.
 
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