Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[taziathegreat]

The crux of his ban is his only counterplay is to either burn him (which can be avoided), dont hit him (lol), or 1 shot him. Him invalidating multiple playstyles is a bonus.

Also every one of your points can be brought towards Chi Yu which isnt helping apes case

I think that’s simplying his counterplay, but admittedly your not far off.

as far as chi-yu he’s instant offense and higher speed make him a different case.

and my point isn’t that ape isn’t worthy of being banned, my point was more is invalidating stall still a bannable offense the way the meta Is currently shaped.

 

[viivian]

Forgot Defog was an "entire strategy" rather than just a move

when 1/3 of all moves get completely invalidated by gholdengo simply switching into it then the problem starts to extend past just blocking defog. it's not just corviknight who gets bodied by this thing when all forms of defensive counterplay is completely invalidated whenever it simply enters the field

Sure Chi-Yu is this thing's premier check, but it's so good that it means you wouldn't use anything else over it. Volc can use this thing as setup bait, Iron Moth can take a hit and is not the sort of thing you'd want to give a scarf to, Ting-Lu takes nothing from scarf shadow ball, Tusk and Treads can spin and threaten it. Seriously, just think outside the Corv box

chi-yu switching in on scarfed sets means it risks dying to focus blast, volcarona risks getting crippled by trick if it tries setting up on ghold, iron moth must always be fully healthy to switch into shadow ball and it still fears the special defense drop, ting-lu gets tricked by scarfed ghold and NP sets can boost up and OHKO with shadow ball. and tusk/treads should not switch in on a make it rain or focus blast at all. ghold is threatened by none of these mons aside from tusk, treads. and ting-lu (and that's assuming it's not NP + air balloon)

(should specify that i don't believe gholdengo to be banworthy but i thought i should give my two cents on the matter)

 

[ApertureB]

I think that’s simplying his counterplay, but admittedly your not far off.

as far as chi-yu he’s instant offense and higher speed make him a different case.

and my point isn’t that ape isn’t worthy of being banned, my point was more is invalidating stall still a bannable offense the way the meta Is currently shaped.

A mon Invalidating playstyles by themselves has always been a factor in determining a ban. One of the big reason why stall isnt that great right now, along with the recovery nerfs, is Ape/Chi/Pao being in the meta and 1-2 shotting every single mon in the format. There is no doubt that some combination of those are gonna get banned.

 

[Talpr0ne]

My philosophy behind it is "Try playing with the Pokemon WITHOUT the move they're abusing." (No Shed Tail Cyclizar, no Rage Fist apes) and then see how strong they really are. PokeAimMD and Emvee talked about this in regards to utility snek and Shed Tail in their recent video and made some valid points. Cyclizar without ST is a very good utility mon, but isn't necessarily broken. I've ran into Apes online that don't run Rage Fist (instead using stuff like Shadow Claw) and it isn't a big deal to deal with.
A lot of people, including the council, want to stray as far away from complex bans as they can, in spite of things like Arena Trap and Shadow Tag being banned. When HOME releases with Basculegion, Houndstone is coming back and Last Respects is getting banned -- yet another complex ban. Baton Pass is also a complex ban in and of itself. Houndstone was never the problem with LR, it was the move itself and the teams built around it. I think the same goes for Shed Tail and Rage Fist.

But hey, what do I know? I don't bother getting reqs for a tier I don't like playing. Yet I still weigh in on stuff like this and Tera because it has direct impacts on the tier(s) that I DO play.

Sorry but your philosophy simply isn't good. Try playing Iron Bundle without Hydro Pump. Does that mean Hydro Pump is broken?

 

[Critaquil]

Its not just defog mate. Its ability removes multiple strats from working at all. Just because a pokemon doesnt instant kill everything doesnt mean that it isnt severely limiting.

since you seem so insistent that it removes multiple "strats" from working, how about we go over common stratagies and see which ones he actually invalidates:

screens: doesn't invalidate
trick room: doesn't invalidate
weather: doesn't invalidate
hazzard stack: hm, let me think about this one
paraspam: makes harder but doesn't invalidate, you can still para gholden with hatterene nuzzle and the rest of gholds team is still vulnerable to para
perish trap: you could argue that gholdengo invalidates this but like, so does the entire ghost typing so its not like this is a trait unique to ghold
stall: ghold is just straight-up a stall staple, he's just that splashable
webs: doesn't invalidate
terrain: not unless you count it walling hawlucha to be invalidating (which I don't because you have 2+ other pokemon to abuse terrain with)
futureport: being a psychic resist doesn't count, doesn't invalidate
tailwind: does not invalidate
status spam + hex: again, makes a bit harder, but doesn't invalidate, especially given gholden is weak to hex

I genuenly cannot think of a single strategy that gholdengo straight up invalidates, and most of the ones that he poses a threat to wouldn't be good even with ghold gone, so please, do indulge me, what "strategies" are you refering to, and don't just use vague examples.

edit:

when 1/3 of all moves get completely invalidated by gholdengo simply switching into it then the problem starts to extend past just blocking defog. it's not just corviknight who gets bodied by this thing when all forms of defensive counterplay is completely invalidated whenever it simply enters the field

calling it 1/3 of all moves is a missleading statement as well as a plain wrong one, good as gold only affects status moves that target it directly, such as thunder wave or leech seed, it does not however, effect moves like swords dance or screens, this combined with the fact that the vast majority of status moves just plain suck means that in practice good as gold only blocks like, 7 moves that actually see use

 

[LunaStik]

I really don't get why people want to ban rage fist/shed tail when it's clearly Annihilape/Cyclizar that break it. I mean, I get it from a "I like this pokemon otherwise and want it to stay" perspective, but I don't see any legitimate argument for it when it comes to tiering. Primeape and Orthworm are not broken with the moves, and thus the moves should not be banned. Same reason why moves aren't arbitrarily banned on other broken pokemon, even if the move is the single thing breaking them.

I agree for the most part, but just want to play Devil’s Advocate on Shed Tail: it could very well be broken itself and Orthworm is new to UU, so might not have been experimented with enough to know for sure if it’s Cyclizar or Shed Tail since Cyclizar is just so much better than Orthworm.

 

[SpritePony]

Sorry but your philosophy simply isn't good. Try playing Iron Bundle without Hydro Pump. Does that mean Hydro Pump is broken?

>Comparing an obviously broken mon with near perfect coverage to a mon that's only seen as broken because of one move + its ability.
The amount of mental gymnastics here is astonishing. Bundle was broken because it hit everything the game for at least neutral between Freeze Dry and Hydro Miss. Cyclizar is seen as broken because of Shed Tail and Regenerator. If you take away one, the mon is no longer broken. It just becomes a faster, more utility-based Orthworm that suffers from similar issues Orthworm does, except it doesn't have an ability you can POTENTIALLY make use of to regen your HP for another Shed Tail.

 

[ApertureB]

since you seem so insistent that it removes multiple "strats" from working, how about we go over common stratagies and see which ones he actually invalidates:

screens: doesn't invalidate
trick room: doesn't invalidate
weather: doesn't invalidate
hazzard stack: hm, let me think about this one
paraspam: makes harder but doesn't invalidate, you can still para gholden with hatterene nuzzle and the rest of gholds team is still vulnerable to para
perish trap: you could argue that gholdengo invalidates this but like, so does the entire ghost typing so its not like this is a trait unique to ghold
stall: ghold is just straight-up a stall staple, he's just that splashable
webs: doesn't invalidate
terrain: not unless you count it walling hawlucha to be invalidating (which I don't because you have 2+ other pokemon to abuse terrain with)
futureport: being a psychic resist doesn't count, doesn't invalidate
tailwind: does not invalidate
status spam + hex: again, makes a bit harder, but doesn't invalidate, especially given gholden is weak to hex

I genuenly cannot think of a single strategy that gholdengo straight up invalidates, and most of the ones that he poses a threat to wouldn't be good even with ghold gone, so please, do indulge me, what "strategies" are you refering to, and don't just use vague examples.

My strategy is that I chose a non damaging move/non directly damage oriented mon.

See

when 1/3 of all moves get completely invalidated by gholdengo simply switching into it then the problem starts to extend past just blocking defog. it's not just corviknight who gets bodied by this thing when all forms of defensive counterplay is completely invalidated whenever it simply enters the field

 

[Talpr0ne]

Bundle was broken because it hit everything the game for at least neutral between Freeze Dry and Hydro Miss.

And if you take away one of Freeze Dry and Hydro Pump it no longer hits everything neutrally so it's no longer broken, I'm not sure if I follow your point.

 

[BobbyHill]

The idea that Garganacle somehow has less counterplay or is more constraining on builds than something like Espathra is really mind numbing.
[/QUOTE

As someone who's tested Garg alot, my four takes are that

1. Against most good teams, you pretty much need to Tera Garg to do more than just Salt Cure (which can be played around) and switch out / give up momentum to your opponent. Since Rock typing opens it to so many powerful special attacks.

2. Fairy Garg is concerned about Make It Rain, Rain abusers, and Sun abusers, while Water Garg is concerned about Flower Trick & enough special Grass and Electric users that essentially 2hko it.

3. Garg is slow, doesn't have immediate damage, and arguably dependent on leftovers, which makes it much weaker to hazards and trick/knock, than something like Ape for example which can run alot of speed and still be extremely good.

4. Covert Cloak is not a bad item lol.


Garg is a great mon for sure, just my argument is that really does need certain teammates to make up for its list of checks, and it needs this support more than other defense-breaking threats in the meta.

Thanks for the response!

I think the main issue isn’t Gargs immediate damage risk like Ape or Chi Yu but the slow chip it can gain by forcing switches to avoid salt cure. Again, I’m not saying that it should be immediately banned. But I have found I need a huge breaker to beat it or have to play super carefully around it to stall out recover. Similar to espathra it can just be uncompetitive at times.

Covert cloak is mid to me. On something like Corv it’s literally only on there for salt cure. Unless you’re afraid of a stray paralysis from a thunderbolt (from which Corv would likely by OHKOed anyway)

 

[ayevon]

I actually don't think think it's ability to invalidate defog is what breaks Gholdengo, I think the Nasty Plot Tera Flying set is why I would vote ban on it. It's an incredibly bulky mon with a decent speed tier, essentially immune to status, an amazing stock typing, and Tera allows it to invalidate otherwise surefire answers like Ting Lu, Clodsire, or even Bulky Roaring Moon. It can use numerous EV spreads from max hp max defenses, max hp max spa modest, or standard max spe max spa timid, which all change how you have to deal with it. Covert Cloak sets allow it completely flip what would be a counter in Water Garganacle into setup fodder, where as boots and leftovers sets help with longevity. Kingambit is one of the only really consistent switch ins, but lacks recovery and doesn't like switching into other sets like Scarf with Trick or Focus Blast. Clodsire can likely deal with it if running eq + pjab, but otherwise this thing often takes down a couple of mons on the other team with it.

 

[ayevon]

Covert cloak is mid to me. On something like Corv it’s literally only on there for salt cure. Unless you’re afraid of a stray paralysis from a thunderbolt (from which Corv would likely by OHKOed anyway)

The ability for things Toxapex/Corv etc to not get flinched, spdef or def dropped by Gholdengo, Chien Pao Dragapult etc. is wildly beneficial, while also y'know, completely invalidating another mon on the opposing team

 

[taziathegreat]

A mon Invalidating playstyles by themselves has always been a factor in determining a ban. One of the big reason why stall isnt that great right now, along with the recovery nerfs, is Ape/Chi/Pao being in the meta and 1-2 shotting every single mon in the format. There is no doubt that some combination of those are gonna get banned.

I agree there, but banning them or not I don’t see stall being good. The recovery move nerf wasn’t even what really killed stall IMO, it was losing almost ALL its utility. Even if you ban the 3 of them (which is totally likely and fair) I still see stall as being unviable even after home.

I understand having to give stall a chance to thrive, but if stall isn’t viable, I don’t see why 6 0’ing stall is a bannale offense

 

[BobbyHill]

The ability for things Toxapex/Corv etc to not get flinched, spdef or def dropped by Gholdengo, Chien Pao Dragapult etc. is wildly beneficial, while also y'know, completely invalidating another mon on the opposing team

For sure. Not saying it’s a trash item. I just think it’s main benefit is invalidating salt cure. And would see much less used if not for that Which to me indicates that there may be an issue with Garg.

 

[pika pal]

My philosophy behind it is "Try playing with the Pokemon WITHOUT the move they're abusing." (No Shed Tail Cyclizar, no Rage Fist apes) and then see how strong they really are. PokeAimMD and Emvee talked about this in regards to utility snek and Shed Tail in their recent video and made some valid points. Cyclizar without ST is a very good utility mon, but isn't necessarily broken. I've ran into Apes online that don't run Rage Fist (instead using stuff like Shadow Claw) and it isn't a big deal to deal with.
A lot of people, including the council, want to stray as far away from complex bans as they can, in spite of things like Arena Trap and Shadow Tag being banned. When HOME releases with Basculegion, Houndstone is coming back and Last Respects is getting banned -- yet another complex ban. Baton Pass is also a complex ban in and of itself. Houndstone was never the problem with LR, it was the move itself and the teams built around it. I think the same goes for Shed Tail and Rage Fist.

But hey, what do I know? I don't bother getting reqs for a tier I don't like playing. Yet I still weigh in on stuff like this and Tera because it has direct impacts on the tier(s) that I DO play.

(Note: For argument's and brevity's sake, I will be referring to potential Suspects as if they are Unhealthy or Unwelcome, this does not reflect my stance on calling for a Quickban or the result of a potential Suspect)

I disagree immensely with the philosophy you express in paragraph one, because it simply ignores the nature of Pokemon where these traits do not exist in a vacuum, they are part of a full kit that may in total make a Pokemon more than the sum of its parts. Nothing about Cyclizar is particularly overpowered (honestly a lot of its kit reminds me of Noivern otherwise), nor is Shed Tail oppressive when simply given to any available user as Orthworm attests to. It is that the combination of traits Cyclizar has alongside Shed Tail makes for a potentially concerning Sum-of-parts.

I have a lot more to say about the second part because I feel there is a lot more here that is just incorrect information or understanding than a difference of philosophy (unpopular or otherwise).

Banning moves or abilities is not what is considered a "Complex" ban, as in the case of Arena Trap, Shadow Tag, Moody, etc. The point complex aims to avoid is banning things in combination/tandem to keep track of that can't be summed up in a simple sentence (Gen 5 OU was a massive headache because of the weird "No Drizzle + Swift Swim" and such bans, which do fall under complex).

The Houndstone thing is not complex either, moreso a combination of simple changes: we go from "Houndstone is banned" to "Houndstone and Basculegion are not banned" with "the move Last Respects is banned". Baton Pass is almost exactly what this is getting at, because various metas jumped through all kinds of dumb hoops with Baton Pass like "only X number of users" or "cannot pass Speed + Another stat at the same time" or "Dry passing only" (which runs into complications with outside or non-guaranteed boosting) before going with the much more straightforward and comprehensible "the move Baton Pass is banned".

>Comparing an obviously broken mon with near perfect coverage to a mon that's only seen as broken because of one move + its ability.
The amount of mental gymnastics here is astonishing. Bundle was broken because it hit everything the game for at least neutral between Freeze Dry and Hydro Miss. Cyclizar is seen as broken because of Shed Tail and Regenerator. If you take away one, the mon is no longer broken. It just becomes a faster, more utility-based Orthworm that suffers from similar issues Orthworm does, except it doesn't have an ability you can POTENTIALLY make use of to regen your HP for another Shed Tail.

The other problem here is that you're arbitrarily operating as if it is better to keep Cyclizar in the game without Shed Tail as one part (emphasis here) that ties its kit into an extremely oppressive force. The point of the Iron Bundle comparison is that while Iron Bundle's Individual traits are certainly more powerful than something like Cyclizar's individual traits, it is having them all in combination that makes it a negative presence in the game rather than trying to run it without one piece of its toolkit.

Why is it so preferable to have a no-Shed-Tail Cyclizar at the expense of the less-effective-but-still-notable ST Orthworm, compared to banning Cyclizar because the sum of its parts are what make it unhealthy while Orthworm stays? Greninja in Gen 6 was primarily made oppressive because of Protean, its movepool, and its statline, compared to Kecleon who remained an unviable Mon with the ability. Despite Protean being a, if not THE, major factor that pushed Greninja into unhealthy territory, we banned Greninja, not Protean, because it was decidedly apparent the ability was not the solitary trait that gave the Pokemon its results. For the sake of context and consistency, would you have approached this suspect in the same manner you are advocating for Annihilape and Cyclizar, i.e. banning a key trait of their kit that has other non-broken users rather than the mon bringing said kit together?

 

[SpritePony]

And if you take away one of Freeze Dry and Hydro Pump it no longer hits everything neutrally so it's no longer broken, I'm not sure if I follow your point.

Without Hydro Miss, you still have Water Pulse, Chilling Water, and Flip Turn if you REALLY want to go down that route. Without Freeze-Dry you still have Blizzard and Ice Beam. Waters are now a safer check against Bundle without Freeze-Dry, but you still have to contend with 124/136 stats on top of a choice item or booster energy.

With Cyclizar, you ban Shed Tail and what are you left with? A mediocre attacker with 95/85/121 offensive stats + Regenerator, or a utility mon that will basically be always running Rapid Spin/Knock Off/Taunt/U-Turn + Regenerator + Boots. Even with the offensive set, you can make use of Shift Gear for a physical attacker, but you have no way of boosting your SpAtk without using Specs/Life Orb... So it becomes far less of a "broken mon" without Shed Tail + Regenerator shenanigans.

If you look at Ape without Rage Fist... You have Shadow Punch, Shadow Claw, and Phantom Force. you can still use the bulkier sets with Max HP/Max SpDef with Bulk Up, but you're no longer under the threat of an Ape smashing you with a 150+ BP Rage Fist. Punch won't be used due to being too weak, Claw has a crit chance, and Force loses to just switching into a Normal type or Tera Normal (both of which still lose to Drain Punch/CC/etc.) Ape's Rage Fist also doesn't forget how many stacks is has on switch out or faint (if you use Revival Blessing.)

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

Also Covert Cloak avoids confusion from Hurricane and Paralysis from Discharge and Thunder

 

[ApertureB]

I agree there, but banning them or not I don’t see stall being good. The recovery move nerf wasn’t even what really killed stall IMO, it was losing almost ALL its utility. Even if you ban the 3 of them (which is totally likely and fair) I still see stall as being unviable even after home.

I understand having to give stall a chance to thrive, but if stall isn’t viable, I don’t see why 6 0’ing stall is a bannale offense

Ape doesnt just 6-0 stall, it 6-0s any team that is slower then it or doesnt have a dedicated (sometimes multiple) counter to it. It also invalidates any defensive oriented mon in general (Not stall mind you). Couple it with the occasional revival blessing shenanigans and its unpredictable teras/sets and you easily have the second most bannable mon under Chi Yu.

There is basically nothing positive from allowing it in the tier and all points regarding its counterplay are generic/apply to previously banned mons.

 

[ayevon]

I really enjoy Garg because of the amount of lure sets it allows from a building perspective. Garg teams often rely on it massively as a blanket check to various attackers, and simplying adding substitute can turn Garg from a counter into setup fodder and force the opponent into very difficult positions. Substitute has tons of benefits outside of blocking salt cure, such as blocking status etc etc.

Here's two high ladder replays of using sub Skeledirge in order to boost up on Garg teams
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1764497962-4cqf7ta6vxo3dkzrk2owae5v1sywn6lpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1764247390-8iavz9o7kkup4nkcbeyy5n3ihm6z4zzpw

 

[Critaquil]

My strategy is that I chose a non damaging move/non directly damage oriented mon.

thats not a strategy, its just plain not, clicking spore is not a strategy, and even if it could be considered one, as I just mentioned, it doesn't block every non-damaging move, or even every way to deal indirect damage (you can still use spikes into it, for example) moreover, the majority of actual moves that good as gold commonly blocks have other immunities elsewhere (see: grounds and elecs cant be twaved, grasses can't be spored or leech seeded, poisons and steels are immune to toxic, ect) the only notable "new" thing that ghold blocks is defog, I genuinely do not see what point your trying to make, perhaps, you could use an actual example instead of repeatedly making vague broad claims that barely qualify as an argument.

 

[BobbyHill]

Also Covert Cloak avoids confusion from Hurricane and Paralysis from Discharge and Thunder

would you use cloak just to avoid those? I feel like leftovers is still preferred?

 

[Bakugames]

Without Hydro Miss, you still have Water Pulse, Chilling Water, and Flip Turn if you REALLY want to go down that route. Without Freeze-Dry you still have Blizzard and Ice Beam. Waters are now a safer check against Bundle without Freeze-Dry, but you still have to contend with 124/136 stats on top of a choice item or booster energy.

Sure, it'd still be a good mon, but it wouldn't be broken. Those moves in combination with stats and items are what makes it broken. Just because Iron bundle is more immediately powerful than cyclizar, doesn't mean it doesn't fit your philosophy to a T, you're just being nitpicky.

Like 80% of pokémon wouldn't be broken if they didn't have a specific movepool combo, or a specific move and ability combo. That's just how broken pokémon tend to be created, as a combo of various traits that together make things overwhelming. Hell, I'm sure quite a few would be mediocre or even drop if we removed one of their traits.
We don't do that because we'd just be creating complex ban after complex ban to preserve pokémon.

You bring up baton pass, but baton pass is pretty much an exception that has a very long complicated history, and was deemed uncompetitive as a move after so many proposals (made by people smarter than me lol). If you want shed tail and rage fist banned, you'll have to argue in similar vein that those moves are uncompetitive in all pokémon theyre in, therefore you must have proof that orthoworm and primeape are uncompetitive. There's an argument for shed tail, but it'll take a lotta work to convince people rage first primeape is bad for ou.

Also first dracovish, now chi yu? Feels like theres an anti fish sentiment in the ou council :'(

 

[SpritePony]

I really enjoy Garg because of the amount of lure sets it allows from a building perspective. Garg teams often rely on it massively as a blanket check to various attackers, and simplying adding substitute can turn Garg from a counter into setup fodder and force the opponent into very difficult positions. Substitute has tons of benefits outside of blocking salt cure, such as blocking status etc etc.

Here's two high ladder replays of using sub Skeledirge in order to boost up on Garg teams
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1764497962-4cqf7ta6vxo3dkzrk2owae5v1sywn6lpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1764247390-8iavz9o7kkup4nkcbeyy5n3ihm6z4zzpw

What's your spread on Dirge? I've been messing around with a 204/404 HP (Lv50/100) Sub set, myself. Not sure if I want to max it or not.

 

[MathBandit]

With Cyclizar, you ban Shed Tail and what are you left with? A mediocre attacker with 95/85/121 offensive stats + Regenerator, or a utility mon that will basically be always running Rapid Spin/Knock Off/Taunt/U-Turn + Regenerator + Boots. Even with the offensive set, you can make use of Shift Gear for a physical attacker, but you have no way of boosting your SpAtk without using Specs/Life Orb... So it becomes far less of a "broken mon" without Shed Tail + Regenerator shenanigans.

If the argument is that Cyclizar without Shed Tail is a fairly niche mediocre mon, then by doing a Shed Tail ban aren't you just introducing one meh niche mon (Cyclizar minus Shed Tail) at the cost of removing another (Orthworm with Shed Tail to enable set-up strats)?

 

[Magcargo]

I really enjoy Garg because of the amount of lure sets it allows from a building perspective. Garg teams often rely on it massively as a blanket check to various attackers, and simplying adding substitute can turn Garg from a counter into setup fodder and force the opponent into very difficult positions. Substitute has tons of benefits outside of blocking salt cure, such as blocking status etc etc.

Here's two high ladder replays of using sub Skeledirge in order to boost up on Garg teams
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1764497962-4cqf7ta6vxo3dkzrk2owae5v1sywn6lpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1764247390-8iavz9o7kkup4nkcbeyy5n3ihm6z4zzpw

As someone who has lost to Tera Electric SubQD Frosmoth, I completely agree.